We discuss how common stereotypes of artists are wrong and even detrimental, the healing and rejuvenating power of simply creating for the sake of creating, meditation, and sobriety in the music industry.
Andrew Combs is an acclaimed singer-songwriter from Nashville via Dallas, with records released via New West, Loose Music (EU) and independently, and has toured with Shovels & Rope, Caitlin Rose, and NPR's Tiny Desk. We discuss how common stereotypes of artists are wrong and even detrimental, the healing and rejuvenating power of simply creating for the sake of creating, meditation, and sobriety in the music industry.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is brand new, I'm assuming you are new, so thank you for checking us out.
[00:00:12] Aaron: We like to think of this show as the anti album cycle podcast. We call it the other 22 Hours, because we wanted to focus on the times that were not on stage. And so zooming out a little bit, we want to focus on the times when you don't have a new record and have conversations with our friends about what they do to sustain their creativity and their inspiration.
[00:00:28] Michaela: Between the two of us, Aaron and I have almost 25 years of touring experience. I've Spent the better part of the last decade putting out records, both on my own as well as with labels, touring the world, and building an independent career. We are currently actually getting ready to take our toddler on our first ever festival cruise, so it's never a dull moment in this life.
[00:00:50] Aaron: Not at all. I started making records in high school with my friends in basements and in garages, and then I spent a lot of years on tour with a bunch of different bands. And now I spend most of my time in the studio, both my own and other people's studios making records and writing music for TV and commercials.
And if you're watching us on YouTube right now, that's very apparent. I am about three weeks late for a haircut, like Doc from Back to the Future currently.
[00:01:15] Michaela: And I'm wearing the same sweater I wear every single episode, apparently,
[00:01:19] Aaron: So if you're not watching this on YouTube, here's the pitch for that. Check us out on YouTube and watch the episodes and all their glory!
Anyway, as you can tell, Michaela and I have been at this for a long time. We have worn different hats in the music industry, from work on the industry side to performing, to producing, to teaching. And what we've learned is that there's no one right way to earn a living around your passion.
[00:01:42] Michaela: And in an industry where so much can feel out of our control, left up to look who, you know, being in the right place at the right time, we wanted to focus on what is within our control.
[00:01:53] Aaron: And so with that in mind, we decided to invite our friends on to have some conversations about the other times. The times that are outside of the public eye, and asked them the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so you can sustain your creativity?
[00:02:05] Michaela: Today's guest is Andrew Combs.
He is an incredible singer, songwriter, He's also a father and husband and a beautiful painter based here in Nashville, Tennessee, but originally from Dallas, Texas.
[00:02:18] Aaron: We had a really great conversation with Andrew about transcendental meditation and the identity of being an artist, about parenthood, about juggling busy schedules,
[00:02:28] Michaela: shifting priorities through building a career that you hope will be lifelong.
[00:02:33] Aaron: And all points in between. So with that, I hope you enjoy our conversation with Andrew Combs.
[00:02:38] Andrew: Yeah, I feel like I messaged you about something.
[00:02:42] Michaela: Oh, maybe. Maybe it was the RC Gorman.
[00:02:46] Andrew: Yeah, I can't remember the story, but yeah, you told me your grandma or someone gave it
[00:02:50] Michaela: Yeah, he was one of my grandma's favorite artists, and she had tons of prints and she had I don't know, like 50 little tiles with paintings on it. But..
[00:02:59] Andrew: Cool.
[00:03:00] Michaela: All right.
[00:03:00] Aaron: Yeah. Thanks for doing
[00:03:02] Andrew: Of course. Thanks for asking me.
[00:03:03] Michaela: So, we wanted to kind of start having conversations, not to sit and talk about how hard this is, but talk about what are some ways that we've found as we've progressed in our life as artists, that help us stay grounded and healthy in an industry, in a life path that can kind of do everything to pull you in a negative space.
I was reading a bunch of old interviews that you've done. And I found this quote from an interview in 2017 where you talked about growing older and taking on new responsibilities and how you had a whole shift in your approach to your career. And now more interested in the idea of being sustainable and being creative and how to play the long game and not be jaded.
And I was really struck by this because I feel like those are concepts I've only started thinking about in this last year, and was so like, "No, you put out records, you tour nonstop."
So, yeah, I'm curious if you could kind of expand on how that idea shifted for you, and then also how that's progressed in the last, five, six years since you started talking about that?
[00:04:04] Andrew: That would've been around the time when our first kid was born. So I think that that has a lot to do with it. Yeah, I just found that the grind of touring all the time, or I did the publishing world, where I would write all the time. And everything just kind of, comes to a halt. The grind catches up, and I was no longer really enjoying what originally, I found to be the most pleasurable thing about being in this business, which was the actual art making.
The the older I get, the more I find that structure in my daily routine helps me be a better artist, at least in my opinion, but also a better person and better father and friend and partner.
And those things just became more important to me the older I got. I think having a kid, now two but having a kid then probably made me focus in even more. I would much rather be home a lot and work a day job, part-time, than slogging it out on the road and falling into unhealthy, lifestyles and whatnot, when I could be home enjoying these people that I love and carving out time to make stuff.
And that's really what I like to do. The entertainment part is a nice addition to the making, for me. I know it's, it's different for everyone, but I enjoy that the most. So I figured out a way to kind of do that. You know, I'm always adjusting. I think we always are, and figuring it out. But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.
You know, the word sustainable is important. I think at that time I probably was thinking a lot about money, and at least at this stage that I'm at in terms of music career, it just really isn't sustainable for me to have a family and be touring nonstop. I could do it if I was single, maybe, and if I wanted to.
[00:05:58] Aaron: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. I feel all of that. We're
18 months into our journey as parents.
19.
19 and a half. Really? Yeah.
[00:06:08] Andrew: and who's gonna win?
[00:06:09] Aaron: I know, right?
I'm trying to do the day math really quick as I finish this sentence.
But I feel all of those things: sustainability, my ability to be present, like when I'm home and with my family. So sustainability, financially is definitely a big thing. But then also energetically and emotionally sustainable to just be able to show up still, you know?
[00:06:29] Andrew: Yeah. That's so important.
[00:06:31] Michaela: Where does your ambition fall into that though? Because I have a challenge. Aaron kind of got to this place before I did, of like wanting to focus on home, and wellness, and yourself, and seeing how touring and that endless cycle can be really detrimental. And I am getting there, but I feel like I still have this itchy ambition that makes me feel like, "No, I need to go out there," cuz that's the way that I've determined how you grow success.
And that's what I struggle with. So how does ambition fall in that for you? Did you feel like that changed as well? Did you feel like your idea of what you wanted to achieve, did you even have those types of ideas going into a music career?
[00:07:15] Andrew: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I don't think any of us are, I don't think you're wrong for thinking that. I don't think Aaron's wrong for thinking the way, you know, it's just like what we want out of it. And yeah, I guess I don't know if I ever had grandiose goals of becoming very successful. This sounds so cliche for a lot of artists, but all I really want was to be able to make my art without any sort of hindrance, whether that be money or time or whatever. And then when the family comes into play, that also become, to me at least, it becomes equal to my art.
And so I have to find a way of making those two things exist together. And yeah, I mean, maybe my ambition changed. I never really thought about like that. It's always just been If I can wake up every day and make something new and still be a good partner and father and friend, then I'm happy.
And , I guess you have to make enough money to pay the bills and all that, of course. But yeah, I don't know, stardom or anything like that never really entered into my head. I guess it would be nice, but, it also seems very daunting.
[00:08:29] Michaela: Yeah. lately I've been thinking it looks exhausting. .
[00:08:32] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Especially the older we get. and
Yeah.
[00:08:35] Aaron: A little earlier you mentioned that, I forget the exact words that you used, but you mentioned that structure to your day or routine to your day is really helpful. That's something that I focus on and think about a lot and it's really helpful to me as well. So I was wondering what that looks like for you.
[00:08:48] Andrew: Well, I guess my ideal day would be to wake up, do some sort of exercise, meditate, then, I don't know, depending on if the kids are in school or not, try and make something, whether it's painting or writing music. And then, get to bed on time and, you know, make a healthy meal. I don't know, it's very simple stuff, but it pays off in the long run and getting enough sleep, as well as trying to fit in time to be creative is tough right now with young kids.
But, I say structure really helps, but at the same time, I also think that letting stuff go and ride the way that it's going, is important as well. I find that I'm most creative when I'm not thinking about "I need to be creative right now."
[00:09:39] Aaron: Mm-hmm. .
Mm-hmm.
[00:09:41] Andrew: So, setting aside time to be creative doesn't always work for me. I just know that it needs to pop up from time to time. And when I say structure also, I just mean like having a part-time job, and you know, being able to pick up the kids from school and being home, you know,
[00:10:01] Michaela: Yeah having routine.
[00:10:03] Andrew Combs wide: Mm-hmm. .
[00:10:03] Andrew: Yeah. Because their life is so much that, and if you throw them off, then the whole household's off.
[00:10:10] Michaela: Yeah. .
[00:10:11] Aaron: Yeah, one thing I've really realized and focused a lot on, from having so much routine with having a little kid, is how much having routines and systems in place actually frees up my mind. And I can see it with our daughter, you know, with a nap time routine or a bedtime routine.
She knows what happens in what order so that she's actually more calm and it's more successful. So I've been focused on that with my own creativity where it's like, "Okay, what are the things that need to happen, every time for me to create the most fertile ground to be creative. Whether that's completely not related to my art or anything like that. Things like care of what needs to happen that so that the house is functioning or that our kid is comfortable or something like that. And just kind of staying up on that so that when I do have the time to be creative.
[00:10:55] Andrew: Exactly.
[00:10:56] Aaron: It's easier for me to like, get into that mindset.
[00:10:58] Andrew: Yeah. Like, I'm not like a clean freak at all, and it's really hard to be a clean freak, I would imagine with kids. But like, I like a little bit of tidiness. And so if I can focus on that while the kids are running around, then when that time comes to be creative, I won't be thinking, like you were saying, it's all part of the process. I think you're right on about it.
[00:11:19] Aaron: Yeah. I guess it falls into structure. Like having things in place to keep your mind clear.
[00:11:24] Michaela: Yeah, I've been so resistant to routine and structure for probably my entire adult life. I'm always like, "No, I don't want a routine at home, I wanna just be able to go where I want, when I want and travel all the time." And I kind of thought, okay, having a child, how am I going to do that still?
And it, I like, have a lot of push and pull, and I feel like once she was out of like baby phase where she was just sleeping and I could just take her everywhere, then it started making me feel crazy to not have a schedule, and a structure. And I'm like, oh, okay. This is actually now counter to what I thought unstructured life did for my creative brain. Now my brain feels like it's scrambled eggs constantly because I don't know what any given day looks like, and therefore I'm on edge, and I can never think about creating anything.
[00:12:21] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:22] Michaela: Until we got her daycare schedule, and we have our work schedules and I'm like, oh, okay. Now I all of a sudden, like the last week, honestly, songs have started coming in my head again for the first time, since Georgia was born.
[00:12:35] Andrew: Yeah. That's a good feeling.
[00:12:37] Michaela: Yeah, for me, it's been almost two years of like, I've written like two songs and I've honestly been like, maybe it's over.
[00:12:45] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:12:45] Michaela: Like
[00:12:46] Andrew: Oh yeah,
[00:12:47] Michaela: Maybe it's never coming back. .
[00:12:48] Andrew: Yeah, no, I, feel you on that. I used to write all the time and now it's only when something hits me, and it's much rarer than it But I feel like what I get is maybe even better than just slogging it out, you know? And so I'm okay with it.
I also paint, and so that's the thing that I started for the reason of like, well, I'm kind of dried up in terms of songs, so maybe I just need to flex that muscle somewhere else.
[00:13:23] Aaron: Yeah, when did you start painting? Did that rise out of looking for another creative outlet or...
[00:13:28] Andrew: Yeah. That and, yes, mostly that. But it was when Kristen was pregnant with our first, and I wanted to be home. I didn't wanna be touring. I just wanted to like be there especially in the last few months. And I don't know, she was going to bed early and I was just like, oh, I have some old watercolors. So yeah, it started like that and then I just kind of became obsessed with it.
[00:13:52] Aaron: Do you find it kind of scratches the same itch as writing, or is it something separate for you? I guess I'm asking cuz, having a career as a songwriter versus having, and I know you sell your paintings but like, having that not be your Yeah. Career focus is there less a different pressure? Yeah, a different relationship with it?
[00:14:09] Andrew: Yeah, there is less pressure. It does scratch some of the same itches, in that like, you know, reaching that sort of flow state, and being alone and just focusing in on one thing and not being distracted by other stuff. But it does feel like a different sort of part of my brain, although I feel like it has informed the way I write songs.
I just kind of look at them more like paintings now, like throw some stuff at a blank piece of paper, scrape and wipe away until something starts to pop up and then go from Whereas before I would write from, like a title or a hook line like that, which I still do, but there is that other as well.
[00:14:54] Michaela: Was that also you had a publishing deal, so you said you were doing that thing where you were going to write, like for work. Did that inform the way that you were writing and has. the business side of music and maybe you know, your, your business relationships and what you've got going on, whether you have a label or a manager, an agent at any given time, how does that impact your writing, and your relationship to it?
[00:15:19] Andrew: Well, the publishing deal, I came into it really gung-ho, because growing up my favorite thing about folk music, or country music, or anything that was coming out of , sort of the rootsy area, was the songwriters. And the people that I was attracted to, a lot of them, came through Nashville and did the publishing thing. So I was excited about that. And did it, and had worked for great people who were super supportive of what I did.
But after six years it was, you know, after the publishing company got sold to a bigger company and then people became more focused in on how much money each writer was making. It was like, "Well, this guy's not, he's not, really pulling it in. we, we, like what he does, but like it's not business friendly."
And so I got sort of jaded and, and, I got turned off by that whole thing. And , I found that what I really wanted to write was not stuff that they wanted to hear, to be able to pitch to other people. When it came to my own projects, they were always supportive.
So that was a, thing. And then like recently, I, I don't have any team really. I've left my label
[00:16:34] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:35] Andrew: So during Covid, you know what little money that was coming in, I was still paying. I had two managers and I was just like, guys, it's cool with you, can we just not do the management thing for a while and, maybe just help me when I need it. And they were cool. And So I only have a booking agent overseas And, I don't have one here. And I don't know, it's kind of freeing.
I hate looking at my email and seeing a bunch of business kind of emails from people and knowing that I need to respond. It takes me out of my whole zone. I know it's necessary, but, in terms of how I write, I don't know how it's affected.
I I guess I feel more free and, feel like I can, experiment, I think play is pretty essential.
[00:17:20] Michaela: Yeah. I was reading about your most recent record of that aspect of like, you kind of shed everybody and everything, and then had little expectations about going into making a record. And I would imagine, and again, I'm coming from my perspective of when you're going in like, okay, I'm gonna make a record you know, I'm gonna try and do 10 songs and I'm gonna have it mixed and mastered, and deliver it to the label. And then we're gonna promote it, and do this cycle. Going into it without any of those ideas, and without any people waiting on it, I would imagine would be some sense of, like, for me, probably a little terrifying. But then also there's this part of me that's like, oh, how amazing that would be just the reason that you started making music in the first place, like as a kid. It's just because it felt good. Not because you're like, shit, I need to make money so I need to grow my career and I better hurry up and make another record cuz my last record got a little attention and it's gonna go away.
[00:18:20] Andrew Combs wide: Yeah.
[00:18:21] Michaela: That part of the music business, I think I used to find it driving, and motivating, and now I find it kind of crippling, and really I just kind of hate it. It just feels so futile and fleeting and so much is about oh yeah, you build relationships but a lot of those relationships feel like they're pretty fair weathered.
Out in the music business world and hopping on bandwagons and I'm currently in a place where I'm just like, why am I making music anymore to begin with?
[00:18:53] Andrew: Hmm.
[00:18:54] Michaela: And so I would think going into making a record where you're just doing it to see what happens would feel pretty different.
[00:19:03] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, my latest record came out of, I don't know, I'm so proud of it because it felt everything, every little piece about the actual creative side of it felt so organic and fun. Jordan Lenning called me and we had all been doing those livestream things over Covid.
At our old house I had a shed that I would paint in. So it was really dead in there, and I would, my vocal would be up front when I'd play songs. And he just was like, well, "I really loved how that sounded, what if you and Dom," for those people who don't know, who's a great drummer, in town, "what if we just like got together and had coffee and we haven't seen each other in months because it was during Covid, and and just see what happens. I have this idea of doing it mono, blah, blah, blah." And I was going through a crazy sort of head space, and I hadn't written but two songs in like a year year and a half. And, I was like, sure it sounds fun to get to see you guys, but like i, I, I don't have much, but I'll bring these two. And we did and it felt, yeah, it felt like really fun and, important, like to me and to them. And..
I feel like those sort of triggers are so awesome when you run across them, especially organically when someone just like, it's almost like a prompt, but you weren't expecting it. And then it just sets you into motion. You're like, I want to do this.
And then we, called the record Sundays, because every Sunday we'd get together and during the week I'd write and we'd cut what I wrote kind of thing. And some were good and some were bad. But it was so much fun, and I'm just trying to always think of ways to have fun and challenge myself, and challenge the people that I'm working with because if they're your friends, then you like hanging out with each other. When you challenge each other, you can really go down some cool roads if, everyone's comfortable with each other.
[00:21:06] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
So if I'm understanding correctly, like you guys made that record pretty lengthy period of time, right? Like over like a few months?
[00:21:13] Andrew: It was like a month and a half of basics.
[00:21:15] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:21:16] Andrew: And I say basics, like the only over dubbs we did were woodwinds. Sorry, the only external overdubs besides us three, were woodwinds and then a few guitar tracks and one pedal steel.
So yeah, I mean, over the course of a few months, maybe the whole thing was done, but like the actual recording of the songs was a month or month and a half. Most of it was, I think all the songs I sang live it was just like, let's do this. Let's have fun.
[00:21:45] Aaron: Mm-hmm. Did you guys have an album in mind as you went, or was it just, "lets just make stuff"?
[00:21:49] Andrew: Well, that was what was fun and also made it feel so organic, was that I was going through this weird sort of, I had had a mental sort of situation. Mental break. I, I don't, I don't know what to call it, but I was, fucked up. and, kind of bedridden for a couple weeks and just couldn't get out of the funk.
And I started meditating, and got on medication, like right when I started recording. And so the all the songs became about that. Like, there's three or four songs that are solely about medi meditating. and like just mindfulness and stuff.
And so it all just ended up working with the instrumentation, with the idea of doing the record in mono and with no verb or delay or anything. e Everything came from the right direction and made something that worked, in my mind, that was taking what I was feeling and putting it into song.
So just, I don't know if we, we definitely didn't have an idea of the record before we came in, but it just made sense more and more over that month and a half, puzzle pieces were sticking together.
After one or two Sundays, it was like, oh, okay, I can see where this is going and it's gonna fit perfectly with the way that I'm feeling, the way that I'm writing.
[00:23:15] Michaela: And it sounds like based on what was happening in your personal life, ,that it was happening simultaneously with a time of healing, in a way.
[00:23:24] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And it was a big part of the healing process for sure.
[00:23:28] Michaela: Wow. Had you ever tried meditating before? I'm curious if you had help, besides medication, kind of getting you out of the funk and also seeking out something like meditation to help regulate yourself?
[00:23:44] Andrew: Yeah, I mean I had a lot of support from my wife. But other than that, I didn't really tell many people. And the meditating thing, I had tried meditating a long time ago, but, kind of fell out of it. Didn't really do it, I should say, you know, kind of played with it. But, you know, met some friends in town who do it, and one in particular a, who's a mutual friend of ours. She just like, kind of lives beautifully. And is just so kind and so present, and she had been meditating since she was like five. Grew up in the TM world. And so I was like, I kind of want what she has, and I think I should at least try it.
And she hooked me up with a teacher and went from there. And it's been something that has been life changing honestly. Like, i don't like to say that, cuz it sounds pompous, but it's been really healing. I feel like the medication kind of helps the day today, but the meditation is like, healing parts of me that have been scarred for like a long time.
And so, it's a good combination. I had a friend, because I literally started doing medication and meditation at the same time, and my friend was like, why'd you do that And now? You don't know which one's working like, well, , I don't care as long as it's working, you know?
But, no, it feels really good and I, feel like I have to do it at least once a day. I try to do it twice a day, but, and lately I've been kind of toying with the idea of, maybe trying another method, or just like diving a little deeper. Which I don't really know how to do yet. but I'm interested in figuring that out.
[00:25:27] Michaela: And TM is transcendental meditation? Can you explain kind of what that is versus just regular old guided meditation of try and breathe and relax and clear your mind?
[00:25:38] Andrew: Yeah. Well, I don't, I'm not like an aficionado, but I know there's a ton of different types of meditation. But TM just focuses on a mantra that you repeat over and over and over in your. And that's a mantra that's given to you when you learn from a teacher. Basically, when you hit it right, it kind of feels like taking a nap without falling asleep.
And so you wake up feeling a little refreshed and clearer. Sometimes I'll get a sensation or an idea for a painting. Haven't had too many song ideas, but it's just clearing the mind really. It's trying to tame that monkey brain that we all have and always trying
[00:26:21] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:21] Andrew: get control of.
[00:26:22] Aaron: Yeah, I've, for the better part of the last, I guess probably 18 years, since I was about 19, gone through various phases of meditating,
[00:26:31] Michaela: You were 19, 18 years ago. .
[00:26:34] Aaron: Yeah. Wow. Ouch.
[00:26:36] Michaela: I was like 18 years ago. You were a child? No. Oh
[00:26:39] Aaron: my. You don't? No, very much not. I was, I was voting and buying cigarettes.
But I was also learning about meditation, and so I've gone through, through various phases and stages. And unfortunately I'm not in a very meditative phase at the moment.
But kind of the peak of my last one. I was meditating for 30 minutes a day or so, and spent a few months in Northern California with some friends at this house that they were house sitting. And it was on like 18 acres outside of Davis. So not a super exciting part of California, but California in general is beautiful when Yeah. it was secluded and it was quiet. And we were there over the new year. And so we decided, the three of us all meditated individually, but we decided that we would start the first three days of the year as like a silent retreat.
And so, you know, we went to the co-op in Davis and bought a bunch of food and, we would communicate who was cooking a meal just by writing it on a sheet. But that was the only communication that we had with anybody else. And we all did our, you know, approached it in our own way, and that was a pretty amazing experience for me.
Like, 72 hours of really not saying anything. And, you mentioned the monkey brain. I really realized like the tiniest gap between an action and my reaction, that little tiny gap, just felt enormous all of a sudden. Life was moving at the normal pace, but it was like slow motion for that split second in between like how I responded to..
[00:28:04] Andrew: That little piece. That's so crucial,
[00:28:07] Aaron: yeah,
[00:28:07] Andrew: I would love to do a silent retreat for multiple days, but maybe when I'm older and the kids are gone.
[00:28:13] Aaron: Yeah, exactly. It was, a prime time, but I mean, even, just a day.
I was touring with a band and one of the singers in the band would routinely take days on tour in silence. Kind of as vocal rest, but also just in like, let me center myself. And so she'd go about the day. I remember one time, I think we drove from San Francisco to LA, and then flew to Dallas or Houston, flew to Texas, had to rent a car and then drive to Kerville, like out in the country.
And so I had to, you know, manage multiple car rentals, which happened to be in her name, and checking into, she couldn't speak and she was on silent, but I kind of loved it! the next day she was like, you know, seemed fully refreshed and all. The other people in the band were a little annoyed. I was kind of just like the hired gun guy and the other people were the band. But I was like, oh, you can kind of step away and do this. amongst everything,
[00:29:07] Andrew: What an inopportune time to do it.
[00:29:09] Aaron: Of all the days on tour. It's like you couldn't do this on a drive day through like, and her com Montana. and
[00:29:13] Michaela: Her commitment though, of just like, no, I'm not gonna waiver on this because it's inconvenient. This is my commitment to myself. That's like the opposite of touring with me. I lose my voice on tour because I can't stop talking in the van. I'm not good at meditation or stillness.
[00:29:29] Andrew Combs wide: Yeah.
[00:29:30] Michaela: So how do you, how do you, um, incorporate that with, with having children too? And side note, and we can edit this out, but is it Allie who is the, who grew up in the tm? Okay.
Yeah. When our daughter was first born, the first several months of George's life was particularly challenging. My mom was recovering from a massive stroke and like not, physically or mentally, like very present. But we would FaceTime with her and we started a morning routine of one, we were new parents coming into it through this massive trauma that I had been enduring of being three months in the hospital with my mom, with her like mute, and anyways.
So we decided to start this morning routine where we would meditate for 10 minutes together, with Georgia, and then we would FaceTime my mom and write down five things that we were grateful for, and talk about them together.
We did that for a couple of months, and I remember talking to Allie and Allie saying like, "Oh man, I have such fond memories growing up. I would play while my parents would meditate. And I just remember witnessing that."
But then now that georgia's a toddler, I'm like, how do you meditate with a toddler?
[00:30:42] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, literally this morning I was meditating in here and got the can I do yoga? Like, sure. Go, Go, for it. it. like, okay, now you just have to keep going. you know?
[00:30:56] Aaron: Yeah. One thing I learned during that silent retreat is how much you can kind of make anything a meditation, if you just really focus on consciousness and the presence. Which has been something that I've found helpful now having a kid. Like, I have not, in the traditional sense, sat down to meditate in probably 17 months now, like, it's been a long time.
But I use little tiny points of mindfulness through my day, where all of a sudden I'm like, I'm reaching for the handle of the door, and now I'm turning it and just feeling like, my arm is turning kind of all the way up to my shoulder Or like making a sandwich and just being totally present spreading, the peanut butter on there and like
Just like a little bit of being here and now.
[00:31:35] Andrew: Yeah. That's beautiful. I think that's important, especially when your life is chaotic with kids and whatnot.
[00:31:41] Michaela: Thich Nhat Hahn doesn't he talk about, have you ever read any of his stuff?
[00:31:45] Andrew: Yeah. Well, I've read the one.
[00:31:47] Aaron: Peace is every step?
[00:31:48] Michaela: Yeah. That's kind of like the foundation of that, right? And also using any sounds that happen in the day as a, as a reminder. Cuz I feel like I go through my days where I literally am like running out the door, and I get in the car and I'm like, what did I just do? did I leave the oven on? Is the house burning down? Like I'm not conscious of what just happened in the past 15 minutes cuz I was just running to get ready and throw the child in the car
[00:32:13] Andrew: No, it's important. I mean, and so that also is, it's really hard for me to meditate if I am sleepy. So like sleep has become such a huge thing in our lives, and we're kind of sleep training right now and it's hard and, but at the same point, I've just made it a point to be in bed by 9:30. you know, hopefully be asleep by 10 and, makes the day so much easier.
Yeah, all those little things just like feed into each other to make yourself and your day, a much more positive thing. And, you know, not drinking as much or not at all, whatever, like always helps. Exercise. And all the stuff that they tell you to do, it turns out they tell you for a reason.
[00:32:57] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't believe it for so long. I was like, ah, I'm cool. I'm doing just fine. And then...
[00:33:04] Andrew: Well, in a young person's body, it, you can brush it off,
[00:33:08] Michaela: Yeah, and think it is very real that also the musician lifestyle, it's just, everything feeds stuff that's in conflict with having a healthy life. Like you're working and living in bars, you're getting paid by drink tickets, basically, like early on. And it's, it takes so much more work to try and have healthy practices and still operate in the structure of performing, and touring, and hanging out in public with people, which is al pretty typically at bars going to shows.
I know Aaron stopped drinking in 2018 mm-hmm. and just how that changed his social life as well, so much. And watching how it can feel like when you're trying to make healthy steps, you're really alone in it.
And so I think that's kind of what our goal is. To have these conversations for people to know, oh, there's a lot of us, like trying to figure out how to make better decisions for ourselves, center and prioritize our emotional, mental, creative wellbeing, within a framework that doesn't really support that. So how can we create that network to support each other?
[00:34:26] Andrew: Yeah. I think it's awesome what y'all are doing. I mean, I feel like there is a shift from even when we were kids, like I still idolized people who were messed up all the time, when I was getting into music. Like I thought that was cool. And I feel like the younger generation, that's not as much of a thing anymore. And I think, I think it's really healthy. And I'm excited to see more and more stuff like this, what y'all are doing, you know. I've actually done a couple other podcasts about mental health. When people heard about the record being about that kind of stuff, there were a few others, but, and it's just really encouraging to, to know that Yeah. Cuz you don't have to be fucked up to make good art and that was a big thing. That was a big learning curve for me
[00:35:18] Aaron: Yeah. For me, like I stopped drinking, but I was also an all day, every day stoner.
You you I I hesitate on the word stoner because like, I was high functioning. I wasn't just lazy sitting around playing video games, but I would definitely just smoke like all day. And so that was a really hard connection to break for me between like,
[00:35:36] Andrew: Hmm.
[00:35:36] Aaron: just smoking pot all day and creativity. Like, anytime I had to work on anything creative, I would just get super stoned and be like, "Hey, that's how I'm creative. That's how I access all of this." And like, you know, I haven't smoked pot in five years now, And I feel like I'm way more creative. Like actually creative, you know? It's like a line like Half Baked: " Oh my God, it feels like Jerry Garcia's playing in my ear!" Like, I get it. Like that's, that's an amazing thing about pot. Like, I don't necessarily feel that anymore, but I think I like wholeheartedly enjoy music more and..
[00:36:04] Michaela: Well, the messaging is so deep also of the tortured genius, of like in order to create good art, you have to be fucked up, and you burn out fast and you have to drink and party. And artists aren't organized. And home life is always broken if you're a true artist.
And that's a really frustrating message, even if you're not conscious of it, I think it is ingrained in a lot of us. And then having to go through the process of being like, "Oh, shit. Actually I wanna create art and I wanna also have a healthy, balanced home life, and a family and have children and like it's possible to do all that. But for so long we've been told no, that's not conducive. that doesn't work. And that also doesn't make good art.
[00:36:49] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:36:49] Aaron: It doesn't exclusively make good art. Yeah. The thing that I kind of want to share with people is like, there's no one right way to go about this, you know? Being more on the sobriety end of the spectrum works better for me, but I have friends that thinking of one friend in particular who's like, never really smoked pot, but he would like drink and stuff. But in the last four years has found that microdosing psilocybin really works well for him, emotionally and mentally, but also Creatively. And so that's like, that's what works for him. And he has children as well, and it ends up making him more present for his family. He's more present with his creativity and all of that.
You know, just being more intentional about it rather than no, this is what I do. My identity is I'm a songwriter that writes roots music, so I need to be just like Blaze Foley. And it's like, ah,
[00:37:36] Andrew: Yeah, .
Yeah, yeah, I also wonder if, because I do feel like that tide is turning, I, do feel like it's more acceptable nowadays to be healthy and not, mm-hmm. you know, and have a family or whatever. I wonder what caused that. I mean, I would think that the money in the music business might be a big part of it. Like you can't, It's just not sustainable to do both anymore, or, I don't know how to explain that. Do You know what I'm
[00:38:05] Michaela: Yeah. There's not so much excess. I mean, maybe for a smaller,
[00:38:09] Aaron: you mean percentage excess money, right? There's not a lot of excess money. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:12] Michaela: There's not a lot of ex meaning like for a small percentage of people, they're still operating, making music and making tons of money. But in general, the music business business doesn't have the amount of money that it used to.
I mean, I worked at a record label. I worked at Nonesuch Records in 2009 to 2011 or 12, and even then, you know, how they would court a new young artist, or parties that they would host. They were just like, the money's not there anymore. So it was
[00:38:43] Andrew Combs wide: totally,
[00:38:43] Michaela: I think it was easier to have access to excess.
[00:38:47] Andrew: Access to excess .
[00:38:48] Aaron: I that. Yeah.
[00:38:50] Andrew: No, I mean like, if I was 25 and I got my first record deal, and they were like, all right, we'll put you on a bus.
[00:38:57] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:57] Andrew: I mean, I don't have to worry about drinking and driving. That's just one of many things that I wouldn't, you know, I would just be off the rails. And so it's just interesting. I think it's good. Good for our health, not, necessarily our incomes,
[00:39:13] Aaron: Yeah. Right.
[00:39:14] Andrew: I'm interested, Aaron, about your sobriety. don't, I'm trying to get sober or anything, but how is that? Like, how do you function going out to a show? You're just like, ah, I'm going home early, or like, how does cause I, I, give myself one night a month to like party.
[00:39:32] Andrew Combs wide: Mm-hmm. .
[00:39:32] Andrew: And that's it. I don't buy booze for the house. I, but like, I would have a really hard time like going to a show and not being like, I'll have three or four beers and hang out for a while.
[00:39:43] Aaron: Yeah. So I have to say I'm not a hundred percent sober. I'll have some drinks here and there, but like I couldn't tell you the last time I had a drink. It was de it was definitely before Thanksgiving. But, starting in 2018, I was fully sober for over a year and a half. And to be honest, it was really, really, hard. I felt great.
I never was like, I'm gonna be sober. I was like, I'm gonna take a couple weeks off, just kind of clear my head, and I turned into a month, which turned into three, and it just kinda kept going cause I felt really good mentally, physically. But I lost a lot of friends for sure.
[00:40:17] Andrew Combs wide: Umhmm
[00:40:19] Aaron: Just, they, they kinda just fell off because, I mean, I was also, I was on the road a lot. Luckily the people I was on the road with were cool. The artist I was touring with was sober. And the other dudes in the band were like, totally cool. And, so I would, that, that in a way, like made hanging a little easier for me just because like you know, you're not going anywhere until the van goes somewhere. So like, I had to stay out, even though the show got done, it was like, I wanna go to bed.
But like, being in town, being in Nashville was hard. It was really hard for me. I would get tired at 11 o'clock. You know right as everybody's on their third tequila, super psyched and really, you know, like everybody's energy is going like, this. I'm like, I'm, I'm, out.
[00:40:56] Michaela: Probably harder because I also was not in a, I've since experimented with sobriety, but at that time I was not a partner that was in the same place at all. I was like, quite the opposite. I was going off the rails a little bit and drinking more than I've ever drank in my life. So I would imagine that contributed to, mm-hmm. , how much harder, and then how much more impressive it is to have the discipline and commitment to himself when even like your partner is like not anywhere near the place that you need to be.
[00:41:29] Aaron: Yeah, but I was kind of coming out of a time I would assume similar to like what you were experiencing before you started Sundays. I wasn't bedridden, but like it was definitely the hardest mental time of my life. And so I was in like a time of searching. I was meditating a lot. I took up journaling and I was waking up in the morning, just brain dump writing page after page. Was running a lot.
I was like really looking for, you know, I was taking like a mental inventory and looking underneath all of these rocks. So that was like really my, drive to figure out what was going on with myself and with my mind, is what kept me going through that.
And basically when I started drinking again, I haven't gone back to full on partying. I've had a few nights in that time, and it, hurts for sure.
[00:42:10] Michaela: I, yeah. How can you have a , party night? Because I feel like one or two drinks and we are so fucked up. it's, cuz we don't, we don't sleep still. Mm-hmm. like, our 19 month old woke was up at 1:30 and 4:30 and then 6:30 six 30 and we're like, cool.
[00:42:25] Andrew: Yeah. no, totally. That's why I only give myself one I mean, it's almost like punishment, you
[00:42:31] Aaron: It is
[00:42:31] Andrew: Like paying a penance. but I don't know. I really love the camaraderie of drinking with my friends.
[00:42:38] Aaron: That's what I miss
[00:42:39] Andrew: And I really love like the first 90 minutes, and then it's pretty much, it's all downhill from there really, if you think about it. But I don't know, once a month I just let it fly. I've thought about just not drinking, but I don't know, I just haven't made the leap yet.
But maybe when the time's right, or, or maybe it won't happen. I don't know. I don't want it to be something that's set in stone. I want it to feel right. And if it does, if it
[00:43:04] Aaron: Yeah. That's what it is for me. And it's something that I've had to try for a long time cuz like, you know, even, up to when I took a extended break from drinking, like, I would try to be like, man, maybe sobriety's for me, I kind of always knew that sobriety, like, felt better to me. But prior to that it was like a slingshot. because it'd be so like hard edge, like, no, I do not drink. And then it'd be like letting go of this slingshot and just like, going for it
[00:43:25] Michaela: drunk smoke, like a pack
[00:43:26] Aaron: of cigarettes and oh, for like a week or two or a month? Yeah.
[00:43:31] Michaela: Because I think there's so much tied to it too, of freedom and youth, and so I I mean, I'm not drinking right now, but that's because I kept really missing that of like, I miss feeling young and free because I'm a breastfeeding mom and like, I don't feel young and free at all right now. But then I'd have one cocktail and it felt like I had had 10 shots. And so I'm like
[00:43:55] Andrew Combs wide: mm-hmm.
[00:43:55] Michaela: oh, I want to drink, but my body is like, Nope, you can't.
[00:43:59] Aaron: Oh, right. yeah,
[00:44:00] Andrew: Well, it's good that you listen.
[00:44:01] Aaron: Yeah, for sure. So yeah, what happens for me now is yeah I feel like classically hungover pretty easily, but I really feel a dip in my energy. Not awake energy, but like, I don't know, vibrational energy, I guess? Whatever, whatever that is. And I feel that energy. Yeah, I feel that for like a week. Even just from like one drink, I can really feel alcohol's a depressant. So I really kind of feel that. And it's just not worth it to me, at least right now. It's not forever. It's almost like whether it's conscious in my mind or not, that's something that energizes me while I'm out, with friends. I'm like, I got my soda water and it's great, and it's got a lime in it, and it's refreshing and like, I'm not gonna feel like shit tomorrow. So I get excited about tomorrow. Aaron, which then like keeps me energized, and engaged with friends that, I don't know.
[00:44:47] Andrew: Oh, cool.
[00:44:48] Aaron: Something like that. I've never really thought about it like that, but I guess that's kind of what's going on now.
[00:44:52] Andrew: Yeah.
[00:44:53] Michaela: Well, we won't take any more of your time, and our child's probably gonna wake up soon from her nap .
We're, we're squeezing this in during nap
time right now, so
[00:45:01] Andrew: Wow. Risky business.
[00:45:02] Aaron: We're gonna push our luck, but
[00:45:04] Andrew: This has been really fun.
[00:45:04] Aaron: Yeah, thanks for taking time outta your weekend to talk with us.
[00:45:07] Andrew: All right. Well thanks guys.