Becca Mancari is an indie folk artist who releases her own records and plays in Bermuda Triangle with Britney Howard (Alabama Shakes), as well as with Hayley Williams (Paramore). We explore the evolution of coping mechanisms, including changing your view of simple self-care as being weak, as well as the power of owning your entire creative process, and how shifting the language you use inwardly can be a catalyst for monumental change.
Becca Mancari is an indie folk artist who releases her own records and plays in Bermuda Triangle with Britney Howard (Alabama Shakes), as well as with Hayley Williams (Paramore). We explore the evolution of coping mechanisms, including changing your view of simple self-care as being weak, as well as the power of owning your entire creative process, and how shifting the language you use inwardly can be a catalyst for monumental change.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, if you are returning listener, thank you so much for coming back. If you are brand new, thank you as well for checking us out.
[00:00:13] Aaron: If you are new, a little bit about this show.
It's not your typical music podcast where guests will come on and talk about their latest record or a tour they're about to be on or any kind of publicity. We called it the other 22 hours because we'd like to focus on the hours that we as musicians are not on stage and talk to our guests about the routines and the tools that they've found.
To keep inspiration and creativity in their lives while they're trying to build a career around their art.
[00:00:36] Michaela: Between the two of us, Aaron and I have almost 25 years of experience in the music business. I've worked at Labels, been a music educator, and spent the better part of the last decade writing, recording, releasing my own records and touring around the world,
[00:00:51] Aaron: And I started making records with friends in high school and spent a bunch of years on the road with different bands and also spent years teaching in public schools in New York City. And now I spend most of my time right here in my studio and in other studios around Nashville working on and producing records.
[00:01:07] Michaela: so essentially we are lifers. We have no plan B, and we've learned over the years that there is no one right way to build a career based on your passion.
[00:01:16] Aaron: And in an industry like the music industry where so much is out of our control and left up to luck and who you know and being in the right place at the right time, we decided that we wanted to shift the focus onto things that are within our control.
our creativity, our tools for staying sane as we build these career.
Or just create in general. And so with that, we decided to invite our friends on and ask them about all the other times that are normally outside of the public eye and ask them the question, what do you do to create sustainability so that you can sustain your creativity?
And the friend that we invited this week is Becca Mancari.
We've known
[00:01:49] Michaela: Becca, probably since we very first moved to Nashville about eight years ago. And we have had the privilege of watching her grow as an artist.
She's put out two. Great records, good woman and the greatest part. She's been in a band called Bermuda Triangle with Alabama Shakes, Britney Howard. She has worked and performed with Ha Williams from Paramore. She is an activist and very outspoken on her platform advocating for L G BT Q Community and she just has a really wonderful heart and we are so happy to get to dig in with her
[00:02:23] Aaron: today.
This episode will probably air in late May, but we are recording it now at the end of March. So the. Climate here in Nashville. Last week we had the Love Rising concert at Bridgestone Arena, which was a gathering of some really incredible artists to raise awareness and raise funds for L G B Q community and support organizations.
And then at the beginning of this week was the unfortunate shooting in Nashville. So the air here is a little different than when this episode will air. And so we started with that in mind and you'll hear us reference Love Rising.
And that is a really amazing concert that we will link to in the show notes to this episode.
[00:03:00] Michaela: So we covered a lot of topics with Becca. It was a really interesting conversation. We talked a lot about learning and embracing how easy and surprisingly simple self-care can actually be replacing old coping mechanisms with new ones that are learned through therapy and help from community.
[00:03:18] Aaron: And we also touched on wholeheartedly taking control of your creative process explicitly around making a record and really shifting your focus on making a record of where you are currently as an artist and having the measure of success be how pure of an artistic statement you're making for who you are and where you are right now in.
And we also had a really interesting conversation about shifting your perception of praise from one of validation where I need this, I need to be validated for what I'm doing. To one of affirmation where you receive is, thank you.
That is where I am. I appreciate you seeing.
[00:03:51] Michaela: And without further ado, here is our episode with Becca Manari.
Thank you so much for being here and being willing to chat with us. to start. Just how are you? Because this will come out probably in
[00:04:03] Aaron: May, June. Yeah. Like the second half of May. This will come out, so it'll a little bit of a different world. But we were just talking about it. Last week we had, love rising at Bridgestone, which Which you were part of. And then this, week starts with the shooting at, Covenant School. So how are you doing?
[00:04:17] Becca: yeah. it's interesting and I still am, like not able to process fully. you know, Last week, like you said, love rising was such a high, it was so amazing. And also you know, it did feel like, I think we all agreed that no matter what though, there was still like this overarching feeling of this isn't enough.
there were a couple pretty amazing, unreal artists that were there that said, you know, I tried to get other artists to come out and support this because of how important it is. And because everything is politicized now, there were people that decided not to come.
That would've been like a huge asset. We still raise a lot of money, but, there is like an overarching like playing a game of what will serve themselves sometimes. what I loved about that event was that you could tell people were like, no, I'm giving my time.
I'm not getting paid for this. I'm spending hours here. I mean, we were at the Bridgestone from like 3:00 PM till like, 11:00 PM we were there all day. And these are some, like, artists of a generation that were giving their time that felt like amazing. I'm queer, you know, I'm non-binary for me, like of course I'd be there that's my life.
But having these other people come and be a part of it who are just allies, where it's unbelievable. So I guess to answer your question, how am I doing? you know, when the shooting happened, of course, horrible. Like, I was actually going to do an interview like, maria, my partner walked in, was like, did you hear what happened?
And I was just like, oh my God, no. And then as the day went on, you're already numb. These are children. It's just awful. And then having it, the shooter be somebody in my community was just like, worst case scenario. Like There's nobody that is a trans friend of mine or a friend of mine that isn't like scared for their lives.
Honestly, at this point. I would include myself in that in some ways, it's just awful. That's how I'm doing. I'm,
[00:06:04] Aaron: Yeah, it's hard to put into words. We're We're right there with you.
[00:06:08] Michaela: the fact that the shooter appeared to be presenting as trans in the state of Tennessee I mean, in the United States of America, that of course then the conservative, extreme right wing is going to have a field day with that and just double down on the attacks that are already happening.
you know, I was thinking about the school shooting this week our is 21 months and she just started going to a little preschool in January. So we do drop off and, pick up, and I have always been incredibly emotional and empathetic for every. issue in the world and have probably felt things pretty intensely.
But now that I have a child in school and can imagine now in a r very real way, what it would be like to not be able to see her anymore.
obviously the trauma of that, but then the motivation to do something, feels that much more intense, which then I think about all of these things that we're having to fight for right now and have for many years.
But that feels like really a kind of a fever pitch, especially living in Tennessee. Is that feeling of going back to love rising of like people who are just allies who might not have the specific daily impact of these attacks I'm not going out into the world afraid that I'm going to be attacked because I'm a target, because I'm a, white cisgendered woman.
I have other things to be concerned about, but I don't have that fear of I'm gonna be a target because I'm, trans or queer. But I do feel the intensity of, I have a child that's in school, so this is, I'm long-winded and a roundabout way of getting to the point of like I think one of the things that's important is how we use our art to communicate our stories and other people's stories to try and create more empathy so that we do feel that same motivation to wanna get up and. Go to a protest for a cause that might not directly impact me today for people that exist in the world that maybe, I don't even know anyone that's like them, but I feel like art is a big aspect of that.
And I know that your work and your music often speaks to your experience as a, queer, non-binary person and your experience of coming out. And I was wondering how much that relationship to your work can feel motivating and inspiring, but also if it ever feels burdensome and exhausting and like, wouldn't it be nice if this didn't have to be a part of
everything?
[00:08:47] Becca: yeah. You said so many good things. it's interesting. I thought today about what you said, I'm not a parent, you know, I don't know if I'll ever will be a parent. And I think about my friends though, and I was telling my partner, you know, we need to show up for parents just as much as we show up for the queer community because it means so much when people come to Pride or come to, you know, rally.
For us, it's like we're all in this together, and if anything I've seen for the past two weeks is that like we are all affected. Each other and our actions. And I think for me, getting back to the music, I always feel like, yes, my story is deeply rooted in my songs, but I feel like people from all walks of life love my music for different reasons or more similar reasons than you would think. I think because I'm talking about the human experience of pain, we've all experienced pain. I don't care who you are on either side of the equation. And I feel like, the root of it is pain.
Finding love in joy when grief and joy like, they hold hands. as I get older, I really believe that now, where, when I was younger, I was just like, the world's against me. I'm a fighter, you know, like I'm an underdog Everybody's out to get me. And as I've changed my thinking through therapy, through things that I didn't do up until like 2020, honestly, I can't believe I've survived this long.
To be fair, my friends would say, yeah, Becca, you weren't doing that great. We saw you, we saw you. And I think now that I experience life where I see like, again, you know, joy and grief holding hands, I don't think there'll be a time where those two things aren't in my life and accepting that has really like given me some kind of refuge I wouldn't call it, or like some kind of piece to be like, one week I'll be on a high and one week I will be absolutely at my lowest.
And how do I like grapple with those things? For me, oftentimes that has been through music and I feel like that music I think is why I have a job. Because people. No, that feeling like this elation of being like, you're full of self. And then also this absolute depression of I think a lot of our voices aren't heard. And we're all reaching out for love at the core of us.
[00:11:05] Aaron: Yeah, that's so well said. I'm cisgendered white male. and so, I can take a time machine to any point in history and I'm generally fine. And, the existential crisis that I feel through dropping my kid at school and the real possibility that like, maybe I won't pick her up, is a new experience for me.
And, I have felt both ends of the spectrum where it's been like, 3 different prongs, I would say it feels paralyzing. It feels Very inspiring and motivating. relating this back to creativity. It also feels like I wanna step into my work to kind of escape in a way.
And I'm just wondering what your experience is in relation to creating, through your upbringing to who you are now and your evolution through that like, struggle and in times of crisis. Is that inspiring to you? Or is it paralyzing in the moment and inspiring later or, what is your experience with that?
[00:11:59] Becca: I would say, this week I can speak to that, you know, I had a photo shoot that?
I was supposed to do yesterday, and I did cancel because I just was like, I physically feel like I can barely like, function to be fair, you know? so it can be that. it just depends, if I'm in a place where I have a lot of support, we talk about like therapy, we talk about self-care.
I didn't experience any of those things. Until, like I said very recently where I didn't have
any.
coping mechanisms other than like being sad, drinking, trying to find affirmation through what I did. Those were like my three target things.
And now that I've cut a lot of those things out, I hope that I'm creating art out a different place almost. I used to believe, again, which a lot of artists do that you have to have gone through something terrible to create. And, to be fair, I don't know if I would've been the musician I am without, how I was raised.
Like I went through so much early trauma, religious trauma, which, if you're familiar with that, it's a deep, I don't know if we can swear on this podcast, but
Oh, it's a mind fuck man. A deep one, one of the deepest ones. And I didn't realize how. Far that was inside of me. you know, I keep referencing this, but I don't know if you've seen this movie it's called Women Talking.
[00:13:13] Michaela: I haven't yet,
[00:13:14] Becca: it's amazing. I mean, it it feels like it's like a play. There's a lot of monologue and, it's basically all these women talking about how they're gonna get out and leave the male like, dominant religious group that, or their husbands that have been abusing them, unknowingly they figured this out.
And it was crazy because like, not to go too deep into my childhood, I just grew up around women like that. Like I grew up in very rural Pennsylvania, and I actually went to a Brethren school when I was a kid, which most people don't know what that is even. But it's almost like Amish school.
they drive cars and they like, have electricity, but you know, they can't wear certain colors. Like you can't wear the color red. I remember my big sister wore a red sweater in the school, and like, she was called like a harlet It was just like extreme, extreme
religion. like I didn't wear pants till I was 16. Like, I wasn't allowed to dress like a man.
I don't know what my life would've been like without all those things. It's really hard for me to look back and be like, what would've my music been? What would've been my motivation? I think as I've gotten older it's more like nuanced than just that.
Thankfully, like I love music and I think I'm pretty good at it. And I think like that's my And like, I want to not only Get better at who I am, but I wanna get better at my craft. that's so important to me in a newer way because I have the capacity. Before, I was just always in survival mode and I had no more capacity.
Like I could write a good song and that was it. Like I couldn't pour more into playing guitar even, or just like learning how to produce and things that like bring me true joy and I think freedom because knowledge is power and I really believe that. And I think I'm so passionate about that now because I stepped into more of a producer role for this newest work that I'm doing.
And it's just like a light bulb went off. I'm like, we have to have, the capacity. If we don't have the capacity, if we don't take care of ourself, we can't get deeper in our work. We just can't
[00:15:14] Michaela: can you share what some of the new coping mechanisms are that you've learned and what taking care of yourself looks like?
[00:15:22] Becca: It's really small, simple things. I drink a lot of tea at night. Sounds so silly because so small and like, I remember laughing at people when they'd be like, Yeah.
I take a bath. I was just like a bath. Does that really Mm-hmm. wow. Shocker. EP and salt really does help
like, you know, I looked at people like that and I thought there was an amount of weakness. Like I thought self-care was weakness. And I actually think I was taught that in a lot of ways. Like, no shade to my mom. My mom grew up poor, like people don't understand She literally, when we were kids we drove by where she lived she's like, oh, I used to live there.
And I was like, mom, that's like a factory. What are you talking about? And she was like, oh, we had this little place in the back where we live. And so now as I've realized like, I was raised by a Puerto Rican mom. And how she was raised would survive, be tough, work really hard, keep going.
Don't rest. it's just a privilege, you know? and so again, I thought therapy. Babs tea we're all white people stuff, to be honest. I was like, that's my white yoga. Like, I was like, okay. Like that's not really for us, yeah.
a catalyst was my little sister she just went through like so much self, self-work and became like a yogi, like She's like a yoga instructor in Asheville. that was pretty amazing to see also, like she's more brown presenting than I am and like, oh, it's just so cool to see her step into that space. And again, like it speaks to like a cultural thing too. There's a, studio in town called Ola Run by a woman of color and she hires so many people of color to be instructors there.
It's so amazing and I feel like, for me, my goal is to like destigmatize things for people and in myself even, I'm like, again, like going back to we better ourselves, better the world. And I do believe that now like, it starts with me. Like I can only control this one thing.
I can't control what everybody else does, but I can control that. I go to sleep at night, so I don't have a nasty temper the next day. You know, like I'm hungover all the time. Like, I go on tour and I we have a dry green room because, you know, one of my players is sober now.
And that's amazing. for me, like, I spent months being sober from everything. And it was incredible. And I realized thankfully until further notice, I don't have alcoholism as a disease, I had it as a coping mechanism. And that was a big shift too for me, where I was like, I don't want it.
I can do something else to make me happy. Like Go on a walk with my dog.
[00:17:47] Aaron: Yeah. Something as simple as that. I went through the same kind of realization a few years ago I was raised the same way both my mom and my dad are like very hard workers, very much like, keep your head down, do the work. keep grinding it out essentially. And, I didn't feel that growing up, I'm like, oh, this is just the way it is.
And so that's how I approached everything and, full disclaimers still do in a lot of ways, but because it takes so much effort to grind it out and work and stay at it and like push through like all of this discomfort and all that, the gentleness of self-care felt weak to me.
[00:18:18] Becca: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:19] Aaron: I'm like, wait, this is it. the strength it took to break out of that inertia of oh, I'll just smoke a joint, or, oh, I'm just gonna drink five tequilas, cuz that's easy and I'm working hard and it's hard and then I wake up and I'm hungover. But that's life.
Life is hard, to be like, yeah, life is hard. Is like a
[00:18:33] Becca: The com theme. yeah, Ingrained.
[00:18:36] Aaron: But the gentleness of just like, I'm not gonna have a drink. I'm just gonna have a so of water and still hang out with my friends. And it's like super easy. It was just a foreign concept to me. so I hear you and I hear what you were saying about having capacity now, it's like, oh,
[00:18:50] Michaela: well
It's also space in American culture, self-care has become such a cliche and probably like pop trendy word and to what you said about thinking it was like white people stuff which makes complete sense because also these things other than taking a bath and drinking tea, but like going to a yoga class or getting massages or having some body work done, it all costs so much money.
And in America, so much of our class system is still very deeply ingrained in our racial structure. which is also, you know, yoga is not a white. Person thing. It's been, does not start with white people, but, but it says something to like the greater societal messages we get in our country of it is such a luxury to take care of yourself, and not a necessity.
it's completely understandable to internalize this feeling of, it's a weakness if I need to have, a night where I like pamper myself, which really is like, I need some calm, I need some soothing, quiet, I need things that are good for my body. And we're really trying to focus these conversations with people who've been in this for a bit.
the age demographic is like, At least into your thirties and older for the most part. And I feel like so many people who've been at least through a few cycles of promoting records and touring a bunch, a lot of people come at some point to a conclusion of, oh, doing what is kind of the norm is actually not really healthy for me and substance abuse issues, even if it's not like a severe problem.
But having to take time off like that comes up, for so many people.
I don't, know if I can think of one person in music that I haven't talked to at least briefly about our relationship to alcohol and drugs cuz it's so prevalent in our work.
[00:20:52] Becca: Yeah, I mean, you know, When we first started out right, like most of us were playing for beer. we didn't get paid. it's just so part of the culture of okay, kids like, here you go, get fucked up. Like That's your reward. You know, And at the time, like I was like, I would love a drink right now and I'd
love to not pay for it, you know, because I was broke as shit.
[00:21:12] Michaela: It's also how we all met, It's where our community was based. a bunch of musicians weren't hanging out at the park at 10:00 AM like, you know, getting to know each other. a lot of our guests so far on this. I'm pretty sure we met at the five Spot. I
[00:21:25] Becca: I'm sure we
did. Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:21:28] Michaela: Spot, or like at, I feel like the early days we maybe met at Margot's house.
[00:21:32] Becca: Yeah, and that was a great wholesome night, right? That is a great memory of of course we all drank a lot, I'm sure back then. Even still, you know. but I feel like as we continue, and that's the goal, right? Like to not burn out burnout is a big word that I've noticed for myself for the first time recently.
Like, I, I know that, I felt that before. I know that when I was touring nonstop in like 2018, I was in Europe maybe like three months out of a year. Like, and I was doing Europe the wrong way. Like I was driving myself and I was in like 17 countries in 30 days.
It was just, To the point where I remember opening for Julian Baker and that was one of those tours where I was driving and she had a bunch of people helping. So it was like a different experience and we were like trailing them kind of thing. And so I come back home for like three weeks and then I go back over with a whole team, like my band.
And I think we didn't sleep for like 48 hours. And then we played a show and we were in the Netherlands. And I remember it was such a bad show too. It was just so awful. We got bedbugs at that place too that night. It was just awful. But I remember that night being like, I think it would be better if I walked into traffic and got so hurt that they would have to send me home. Oh my That I would have. I was like a soldier that was like, I'm gonna like shoot my hand. Like, don't play with me right now. I'm leaving this shit.
[00:23:00] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. but you think that's the only way what needs to happen to get to the next stop and like eventually you'll be reward. Or yeah, eventually get to the point that somebody's gonna be like, okay, here you go. You, pass the finish line.
[00:23:12] Becca: Yeah. You passed the test. There You
[00:23:14] Aaron: know, and it doesn't even have to be coming to Europe. I think people see that a lot here. They think that there is a line that you cross that all of a sudden everybody's gonna be like, here you go. Now it's easy. And now you do this and everybody's gonna take care of it for you.
And it's like, no, you have to actively make these changes and make these decisions to make your career comfortable.
Because it's just gonna keep going.
[00:23:33] Becca: Unfortunately. Yeah, I think so.
[00:23:36] Aaron: like, well, unless you do that work to pull the brakes. And slow down a little bit and reassess and approach it in a different way.
You know, it's like, okay, you're selling out the five spot and then you're selling out, mercy Lounge, restent Peace, and then you're selling out the Ryman, and then next is like Bridgestone, but oh, you're selling out Bridgestone, but you're not selling out Nissan Stadium. When does it stop?
[00:23:56] Becca: It
[00:23:57] Aaron: know? is never too early to just take a minute and be like, oh, I deserve to be comfortable. You know, no matter what perceived level you are at or no matter what your contract says that you're provided backstage, like you can be like, no, this is what I need.
This
[00:24:11] Michaela: is, yeah. that question of well, am I successful enough to. Deserve these things and not suffer in this way and deciding, okay, well maybe I can't sell as many tickets as I think I should. to be able to like say, no, I don't wanna do that tour.
And getting to a point in life where you're like, actually doesn't matter because I'm just gonna decide I don't wanna do that tour, or I don't wanna do it that way, or I don't wanna believe in this transaction.
Because the transaction of if you suffer long enough or if you pay your dues long enough, then you'll be rewarded and will get easier. It's not guaranteed. you know, I've seen some friends who've been touring for over 20 years and are like, I don't know if this has gotten any, Than when I first started out.
And how come that person over there is 19 and they're touring immediately on a bus and comfortable and might not ever have to experience this stuff. shifting the mindset of, how do you design what you want to do based on your own decisions and not out of this imaginary transaction of what you think you need to do to get what you want.
[00:25:17] Becca: Ooh, this is tough. This is like a great conversation cuz I feel like we all have choices to make and they're all right for the person. Like, it's okay. Like I think that I struggled a lot when I saw some friends, seemingly stop. going back to Erin, like just being like well, what do you mean?
Like, you can't stop, you gotta keep going. and like, I would think like maybe they were sad about that choice or I would judge it and be like, You're giving up? giving up? Like How can you give up? You're so good. Or like, how can you In like the darker parts of me.
Yes. I judge that, you know? I think more I would be like sad and I'd be sad for them. oh my God, you gave up. I'm so sorry. Like, You must be so sad. And then realized, I was like, wait, what if they're really happy? Like, what if they're like doing great?
Like, what if they're like, fuck you, Becca. Like, I'm actually having a great like, hope you're having fun out there. Like, Keep going kid. Like, you know, I, there wasn't even a thing that like sparked that. It was just like my own spirit that was just wake up. That's not yours to decide.
And that's not yours to judge. And it's only yours to be a friend, to be like, Hey, I just hope you're doing so well. I've had friends be like, I don't think they wanna give up though. and I'm like, how again, can you build a life that makes sense for you?
don't think it's an and or like, I don't think it's an all and all out and I struggle with that still by the way, because I do feel like for most of my career I've been it's all in you have to be like so thirsty and like, you can't ever stop and I think we probably, what's the common thing?
We've talked about substances. and the pandemic, That's,
like the two things that we all experienced pretty similarly. And I think for me, like without the pandemic, something was gonna stop me and it probably would've been like alcohol and like a dui, to be honest. Like, I don't know, something terrible.
But the pandemic, as cliche as it sounds, was my stopping point where it was just like, Nope,
you gotta Sit.
on this couch and you gotta face yourself and you gotta like yourself without all this.
And it was really hard. I wasn't okay. I know y'all suffered too, and I know you went through so much with your mom, and my mom like had cancer and like, that just like really derailed me for all of 2021, to be honest.
I
[00:27:29] Michaela: Yep.
[00:27:29] Becca: gone. So Yeah.
I don't know. Like, when you said that thing about the 19 year old thing too, it's funny, let's like, we can never go back to being 19. but we also didn't have TikTok then.
we didn't have the resources that some of these artists have right now. And I can't look at like a competition in that way because I'm like, you didn't have it, Becca. Like, it's okay. Like maybe you would've had the same thing, but you just had what you had and it was a different time.
[00:27:54] Michaela: Yeah. Honestly, though, I think thank God I didn't have any of that stuff when I was a teenager.
[00:28:00] Becca: I,
would've said something so stupid, right?
[00:28:03] Michaela: I relate deeply though to what you were saying about like, when you've seen friends stop or, and feel that kind of like sad for them or if you're being darkly honest. Pity or like judgment. I feel shame for it, but I remember like being young in my twenties and like seeing different people at different stages in their lives and careers and having no concept of what this life was like and thinking, all right, I'm not gonna be where they're at at that age.
I'm gonna be like past that. What past that even means, I don't know. But I think then when you spend so much of your time, like you said, so thirsty and you're like, everything has to be about this career. friends' weddings or friends', children's births, family events.
Well I got shows. Yeah. This is everything. Cuz that's what you have to do. And then when it stops, like with the pandemic and like what you said, family stuff I also was like, okay, the pandemic took it away and then my mom had a stroke and I had a baby and I thought so much, I'm gonna get back to my career and then I'll feel normal again.
Then everything will be back on track and I'll feel like myself again because nothing in my life feels recognizable. And it's been a pretty bumpy start back into my career world. And it's messed with my self-identity a lot. I was so, like, I have to get back on tour as much as possible because that's who I was. And Erin had already made the shift of saying I don't think I wanna tour in the way that I used to. I wanna create music here in my studio and like shift gears and I was like, no, I'm a road dog. I go out six weeks at a time cuz I'm so tough. That was so deeply ingrained. And only now am I really thinking like, oh, If I don't play as many shows as I used to, that doesn't inherently make me less successful or less of a member of the music community or less of a professional.
There's so much more to life that's really wonderful to experience that you can't experience if you spend all of your time traveling from town to town. That's not to dig people who still that's their favorite thing in the world to do. But I think I had such a one track mind of if I made any concessions to thinking there's more than just this, than I'm giving up,
And then everyone else is gonna judge me and I'm not gonna be in the club anymore.
[00:30:27] Becca: that's real.
[00:30:28] Michaela: it's so hard to then decide, What decisions am I making for what's really good for me and my family, and what decisions am I making based on all of these imaginary conversations or things that I think other people are saying or thinking about me and like this incessant need to feel accepted
by all these people that I can't even name.
[00:30:50] Becca: Yeah.
They're pigments of imagination, right. At the end of the day like, everybody's mostly thinking about themselves to be fair. Like, you know, To be fair, we're all just thinking about what we're feeling, you know, or what's somebody might perceive about me like,
[00:31:04] Aaron: Exactly that. Yeah. What you're feeling, but in disguise as somebody else or in disguise as somebody else's actions, it's like, oh, that's actually my thoughts on myself. Cuz I, too have felt sad for friends that are like, no, I'm not touring anymore. You know, Again, in the darker thing like, oh, they're giving up, but I've there's a part of me that's like, that sounds really
nice. uhoh. What? Yeah. What if I did just get a job that I went to five days a week and then got a paycheck on Friday then I just went home and I just like lived, maybe, you know, I played a show here or there with friends.
Got my place on rigs of Dad Instagram page or whatever it is. But like, I was like, oh, that feeling of pity for my friends that were stepping back because that was what was for them, was like actually my own desire in disguise as this friend
[00:31:48] Michaela: of that poll of maybe there's an easier way to live than the life that we've chosen based on what we do feel is our calling or a gift or a passion, but how we build a life around it is what can cause a lot of struggle pain and hardship.
Hence this podcast. Yeah, Of how to have both, how to build a good life based on
[00:32:12] Aaron: creating. Yeah. And so for me, the realization, I guess you could say prior to the pandemic, but I was already shifting towards this kind of lifestyle And the pandemic just like called my bluff and was like, cool, here you go. Like if if you really wanna do it, here you go. But for me it was you know, I was, more of a sideman. I was not, a front person. but for me I realized like, oh, creating, it's like the actual act of creation that I like.
So how do I do that more? And that was, being here in my studio that was writing with people more, that was producing more records. And live music is amazing. It's a really unique art form, you know, you can have a great band and a horrible audience and it sucks.
You can have a horrible band and a great audience and it sucks. that feeling of a great band and a great audience is such a unique experience and such a great power. And I love that. But for me, being on the road, I only do this like two hours a day when I'm in my studio, I'm creating like eight to 12 hours a day.
And I like get to really be in that. And that's what mattered to me. So my change, was stepping back like, okay, what do I need to shift in my life and my approach to just be able to create more? And the heavy lifting was disconnecting from how my art was perceived and how I was perceived.
which is, as I witness, being with Mikayla for so long as really hard, when you're releasing records and you're on tour, there's so much of the business that is just outside of your control entirely. you know, it's been a lot of heavy lifting for me and I'm not great at it still, but you know, every day I try to be a little bit better of, focusing on what I do have within my control, which is did I create more songs this year than last year?
Or am I closer to what I hear in my head than I was last year?
[00:33:49] Michaela: you mentioned that earlier of one of your coping mechanisms was being said, drinking, and then I think you said getting affirmation for, from what I do. and what you said, in reality people aren't even thinking about either thinking about themselves, but I'll take it a step further that I feel I've been programmed of.
Like, that's even more painful when nobody's thinking about you.
[00:34:10] Becca: Well That's cuz you're a performer.
[00:34:12] Michaela: yeah. Not when they're judging you, but when they're like, who, I'm not even,
so how has your relationship to. Gaining affirmation and feeling, fulfillment or confidence or whatever from the response that you get from what you make.
[00:34:28] Becca: Yeah, it's interesting cuz I'm like literally in the thick of it right now. I'm about to put out a new record. I'm like working on so many different aspects of it. Again, like I feel like I'm doing the calls, the conversations the game, you know, whatever.
But the person that sees me the most is my partner and she is. poor thing. I mean, need to be in therapy again. I lost my therapist because she was always gonna transition to being a child's therapist, which she's like an angel.
so I haven't, had like a consistent therapy person, so I've like putting that on Maria too much, is, you know, a thing we,
[00:35:02] Michaela: we, we understand?
[00:35:03] Becca: I totally uh, gotta get that therapist. It's essential. but, you know, I think like she sees that in me. Like, I've always struggled with affirmation from people pleasing as my like deepest Achilles heel.
And like, if somebody else says it's good, I'm like, it's good. Yeah, you're right. And so for me to answer your question, I think because I took, the role of producing myself, and not just alone. I had one as my co-producer who's. Literally amazing. But because I stepped into that role and I like ultimately was the captain of my own ship musically, even I could say to myself, you did everything you could. You had the final call, Becca, on what was done. I had the final call on when the mix was done. Becca. Is the mix done? The mix is done. Okay. Moving on. Becca is the album cover, right? Yep.
Is it your vision? Yes. Moving on. I finally believe me and that to me changes everything. Like the game is different now or I'm like, oh, like I know what I did is great period.
Before, after, in between. Anything else is just a little cherry. But it doesn't define me anymore. And like, I know that that's gonna be a battle. Like, listen, I've already been I don't know if I wanna read any reviews. even if they're good, like I'm just not sure.
Right now, I'm just maybe that's not for me this time. But what it is for me is it takes a mind shift. Everything is so mental. in our lives we are so, controlled by this thing, and it can be in a positive or in a negative way. And what you speak over yourself matters.
And I think for years I'd always, like I said, I'm an underdog. The world's against me. The universe like, doesn't have my back. And when I started shifting my language and being like, oh, the loves me, it's conspiring with me. it's got my back. I am not alone. I'm not an underdog.
This has been like the shift of a lifetime for me. And I've feel like. When I was able to do that, when people responded in a positive way, it was great, but it wasn't like, oh it was before where it was like I needed that. It was just like, thanks. Yeah, I know.
And that is life changing.
That's when you start getting in your own power and like the job is sustainable. without that, this job potentially is really harmful.
[00:37:18] Michaela: yeah. I would be so curious to talk to you again. A year after this record comes out.
[00:37:23] Aaron: That sounds,
That sounds really dark. Yeah. Cool. Cool.
[00:37:27] Becca: Good
luck, Becca. Good
[00:37:29] Aaron: yeah, We'll talk to you after the album cycle. Heard that before.
[00:37:34] Becca: there. Bitch. You got great songs. Been there.
[00:37:38] Aaron: Yeah, cool. Life changing moment. It's been a big change. Yeah. Good luck.
[00:37:42] Becca: See in
here?
[00:37:45] Michaela: I mean, I mean it with a lot of
[00:37:47] Becca: love
[00:37:48] Michaela: and obviously
[00:37:49] Becca: also a
[00:37:49] Michaela: lot of positive hope for you but Because I've relate to so much of what you say all the time, but like that, experience of taking back, ownership of what you think is good, I felt like I went through all that process with the pandemic.
We produced my last record together at home and it was such a big step for me to do that with Aaron, cuz we've been together 15 years and I really realized Aaron doesn't count as an outside person to me. We've been
together since we were a kid. So, Like him telling me something good is I don't believe it.
Like he's part of me. So I need some
[00:38:26] Becca: Hmm.
[00:38:26] Michaela: person to make me and my music better. that's been a very deep, long struggle for me that I still struggle with. And this is the point of the story, but I felt like I really got somewhere with it. During the pandemic and creating my last record o to be that free.
And I was like, we did it together. I loved everything about it. I designed the package. I picked things like, the photo is like a really far away photo of me that's not, focusing on my vanity or my physical image. Everything was like very intentional leading up to the release.
I was pregnant and in the hospital for three months with my mom who had a massive stroke. And like my whole world changed I felt like my perspective shifted and I was like, all of this shit in the music industry and attention is such bullshit. this stuff we spend so much time being concerned about is such bullshit.
And I felt so free of it. But then my record came
it came out like. What, 2022, like there were a million records coming out and touring was still like really rough. And I didn't have a super present person on my team that was a vital person on my team. And like, there were disappointing things about the album campaign.
Granted also, I've had this conversation so many times with friends who then also are like, from social media, it seemed like you had such a successful year and you were, you played Bonnaroo and played hardly strictly and did all these great tours. And I'm like, yeah, but behind the scenes it felt like a failure
Based on the last record in some's pockets.
Some people, journalists who were big supporters of mine in the past didn't touch it. Nobody said anything about it. I literally had a person on my team have a really neg feedback about. How the campaign went. So I created this narrative in my head of, oh, I was wrong.
And it twisted my mind so much because I felt like I got to such a positive place of not needing it.
and then I couldn't differentiate wait, what was good about all this And what was a disappointment even the tangible things of like, I would have to list like what my year looked like compared to my last record. I'm like, wow, all these things are notably better.
But that radio DJ who loved my last record, didn't like this record.
Things that are just a natural given of when you're an artist who puts out many records and has a long career. But it warped my mind so much that I have had a really hard time. Since being like, wait, I thought I was in such a good place. And then that little bit like set me so far and so I don't say this to be like, so Becca, you're gonna like,
[00:40:59] Becca: Listen, I, I, I'll tell you this, I've got a shield against that. I'm like, Nope. like, I've just been like I just believe and I believe because what you're saying, Kayla I thank you for being so honest.
I think it's really vulnerable and really. Difficult way of saying it it can be like triggering for me even because I feel like I deeply know what you mean. But I also deeply want you to.
like, let go of that one little thing that twists your mind because that is again, our own worst enemy is ourself usually.
those people that say bullshit stuff to you. It's just so off the cuff probably they didn't even think how deeply their words can affect you. And I've got people that have said stuff to me like, where I wish like this person would've gotten on board. and I've been like, what does that mean?
Like, Does that mean I'm not worthy? Like Does That mean I'm not good enough? Or like I'm not able I was like this when I was a kid. Like I was a believer in things. Like I had this hope so much so that people would get annoyed at me.
Like they'd be like, they're positive. Here we go. Like. Life's great. Like, you know, like, I don't wanna hear it but I feel like that to me is like when you see an old person that looks young, where you're like, damn, I like you. Like, you're like, hold on a second.
You're incredible. Like, I wanna be around you. Cuz we are just fed so much like this idea again, like we're at a time limit. you, unless you're at this age, you're not viable. And it's the older people that say, no, That's not
true. I'm viable at any age. I'm amazing.
I'm sexy, I'm fucking cool. We believe them,
[00:42:23] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:42:24] Becca: we fuck, we believe them. The energy.
around them just like draws it into you. a good example is I was bummed that I wasn't asked to play the love rising show. As me, I saw go out and I was just like, hello? Like, you know, I'm like an activist.
I'm like, I'm a gay. Like, what? What do you mean? And then I was just like, you know what, Becca it's really cool that they're doing that show. no matter what, like that's great. And I love the, my friends that are playing it. That's so amazing. And I'm not trying to be woowoo, but I think like with the next day, Hailey texted me and was like, Hey, I want you to play guitar for me. And it was intentional cuz she just knew. she didn't say this ever, but I know she meant this. You should have been They asked me, but you should be part of it.
and let me give you this platform. And I just feel like right now, if I don't think like that, nothing will ever change for me. My story will be the same thing over and over again. And I think like as people who grew up, cuz I grew up really poor. I grew up really like, we're never gonna break the poverty cycle. My parents are still poor. They're better than they have been, but they're still poor. They don't help me, and never have like, you know, as an adult and like to me, I am my own champion now.
Like I am my own person and if I can keep that, Yeah. let's do it in a year from now, because that's a challenge.
Even like,
[00:43:40] Michaela: My point, my point of sharing that is in the realization that it's not just, okay, I'm cured now that I really, thought, okay, the things that I let contribute to my own mental suffering over all these years of doing this, like I'm done with them.
And I really felt that I'm over it. I'm a new person, and then I had all this backsliding and it really has made me realize, this is just a lifelong journey, and it's the constant work of I don't go to therapy for six months and then I'm good for the rest of my life.
It's like, no, I have to recenter myself in my integrity, my practices, my belief systems, how I want to behave, and all of that, like every single day.
[00:44:25] Becca: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:44:26] Michaela: the psychiatrist Stutz. Phil Stutz
[00:44:30] Becca: Okay.
[00:44:31] Michaela: There's a documentary about him that Jonah Hill
[00:44:33] Becca: Oh, yes, it's great.
[00:44:35] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And he says I'll have to look it up.
the constant truths in life is. Do
[00:44:40] Becca: Was
it suffering and or um, I
wrote it down too.
[00:44:44] Michaela: is constant Work is part of it.
[00:44:46] Aaron: That's something that I think about a lot is that, we think that You know, Existence is a straight line when really it's a squiggle for sure, but it's kind of a helix. Like, You come back to the same things, it just looks a little different, but it's the same meat, You're coming up on releasing another record and there's gonna be a lot that's the same, but there's gonna be a lot that's different is how do you approach it in a new way? it brings me a lot of joy to hear how grounded you are in your record and what you've made.
Because as a producer, that's what I try to impress upon the artists that I work on a lot. I'm like, it's called a record for a reason. It's a a record of where you are as an artist and the world needs to hear that. And the records that I love the most. Are so grounded in who that artist was and is so pure in their intention and in their voice is not trying to be something else.
And to me, that's what makes a record last. that's what makes a Bowie record that he recorded in
1968 Move Me today, is because he was like, this is where I am, this is what I'm doing. be real, be true and then own that fully as much as you can.
And that is the success. If you can step into like owning it and being true and clear in your statement. That's incredibly powerful.
[00:45:57] Becca: Oh man, I just got chills cuz like, listen Aaron, that's what somebody said to me. That shifted me too halfway through the record I was having a crisis. Like, I was like, oh my God, like, did I like mess up? There's a whole other story of how that happened, but that's another time. But my friend, I was just like, I called him and I was just what do you think?
Should I get this person on board? Should you come on board? What if I, messing up? And he was just like, whoa. make the record of who you are right now, not who you wanna be 10 years from now, because you will make that record Sunday, but that's not what is in your capacity right now.
Like, Make the record that you have the capacity to make right now. And that is going to be amazing, Becca. Because it's just captures that moment and like someday you'll do something else and you'll get better. Because that's the goal. That's what keeps you hungry. That's what keeps you alive in this job, is being like, oh, next time I'm gonna use those kind of drums because I now get it.
I want that sound, but it's okay. It's not on this record that's coming. This record is what it's supposed to be for right now. that's what gets me off. Like, or I'm just like, ah, I got all the hope in the world. If I can keep having the strength and having The ability to say, I know that there are gonna be people that pass on this record or like they won't like it, or they'll be like, why did you do a pop song, Becca? Like always like, why did you change your sound again? I'm like, because I'm gonna be an artist that does that. I will never be the artist.
That doesn't I mean, it's probably career suicide, but it's just what I choose to do. It's just what interests me
[00:47:24] Michaela: those are the artists I love who make a different record every time. because they're people, so they consume different music throughout their life and have different inspirations. So I mean, I always go back to Linda Ronstadt's, one of my favorites.
Mm-hmm.
[00:47:39] Becca: Great example. So amazing. Yeah, When she singing in Spanish, I'm just like mind blown traditional, like Mexican music. I'm like, okay, you yeah,
[00:47:49] Aaron: Yeah. Exactly. It's the two of you as singer songwriters have this unique gift of being able to put into words your experience in the world that it is today. And as a listener, that's an amazing thing to be able to witness.
And It's a sculpture in a way. building a sculpture of the way your experience is in the world today, or the last six months that you've been working on the record. And that will exist longer than you will, and that'll be there for people in the future, and then the next record you make it's the helix, you're back in the same place of making a record, but you have a different perspective. You have a different approach. And
[00:48:22] Michaela: I looked up Phil Stutz. It says that people who accept that life is made up of pain, uncertainty, and constant work are better equipped and essentially happier.
So those three things, pain, uncertainty, and constant work, accepting that those three things are just a part of.
[00:48:40] Becca: Let's go
accept it. We started this conversation, joy and grief. Ha. Holding hands. Accept that.
[00:48:46] Aaron: yeah, yeah. Exactly. that came to mind when you guys were talking about releasing a record and having one intent in mind. And then, as the response starts to roll in and how that changes, letting it shift you.
Yeah. Letting it shift you. But you know, I feel like you approach it so strongly and then, we're all human, and so the response, maybe it's not what we expect, and that hurts. There's ego, there's feelings writing a song and singing it and recording it and putting it out in the world is an extremely vulnerable form of art.
And so I think it's human to be hurt by response or lack of, or whatever it is. But I think what can be dangerous is in. Letting that trigger a shame spiral you're like, this is my record. This is where I'm at. I'm gonna put it out and it's great. And I don't care about the response. I'm strong here.
Perfect. Great. also be aware that like your ego might step up and be like well, why is it not getting more response And that's okay too. How nobody cares about
[00:49:39] Michaela: all my emotions right now.
[00:49:41] Aaron: Yeah. And, and like, I wanna say like, that slip is okay. I think it's really detrimental to be like, no, I'm gonna be strong. And then when you do have those feelings to then feedback and leave the grit
[00:49:51] Michaela: shameful for having those very human emotions. Yeah.
[00:49:53] Becca: Yeah.
I feel like I've been facing my, humanness a lot recently where I'm like, nah, Becca, like you slip into that a lot. And you know, something I think that he also said was, and the documentary you can't ever really get rid of those voices.
those voices will always be with you. They will live and die with you. And when I heard that, I was like, I feel like I've heard this before too, and I think a therapist has said this, like you can't ever really get rid of intrusive thoughts.
And first I was like, oh no. Like that's horrible. Like, what do you mean? And then when I realized no, like you can say, Hey guys like, you know, I know you're gonna be here and I love you. Even I accept that you're part of me, but you don't get to run me. Yeah. And that's what my therapist told me too.
She was like, fear, you're accepted here, but you don't ever get to run this car. Like, you just don't get to run it.
[00:50:39] Michaela: And I don't have to believe you.
[00:50:41] Becca: yeah. I
[00:50:41] Michaela: yeah. I don't have to believe
Yeah. You can be here, and I'm not gonna feel bad about that, but I don't have to believe everything you're telling me right now.
[00:50:47] Becca: a hundred percent. It's huge. A huge life shift. And like, listen, I never understood that before. I just was like, That's the truth. And I would just cling onto this and I'd cycle into it. And like, my therapist recently was like, you know, you probably have a touch at OC d Becca.
Like, We're gonna work on that. you know, There's a lot of things that are looping here right now that I see and like, now that I have knowledge, more enlightenment of my own psyche. I'm not scared as much anymore.
Like, I'm not as so oh it's, they're gonna know. Or I'm bad or like this constant like war of just trying to like have a facade. I'm just like, no, I'm a person. I'm gonna get older in front of you. that's really hard for me, like getting older, watching my friends get older is like, What? it's crazy. Like it's a crazy feeling, but now when I'm just like, well that just is what it is. Like you have to accept it. that's been a thing too, is like Face it. Look at the scary, I always have this dream where I can't open this one door in this house.
It's like so typical. It's like, and I really have this dream and I'm just like, Becca, that's cuz you can't face all the things in yourself and if you can face them, the buggy is not there.
[00:51:50] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. There's so much power in knowledge and understanding of ourselves and therefore each other. We have so many of these kind of conversations behind closed doors, and then we all go on social media and share our highlights, and like you said, it's not as scary when you start understanding yourself, but also when you start understanding how not unique it is to feel these things and think these things, and that it's not only you that struggles with different thoughts or feelings or whatever, that we all do it.
Don't admit it that often
to each other. So I think there's a lot of power and what's the saying always Mold grows
[00:52:31] Aaron: in. Yeah, mold grows in darkness.
Is the idea of just, opening that door and letting, light on it, it might not fix it, but you're like there it is.
And it's there. And I'll keep that in front of me and be aware of that.
[00:52:42] Becca: that's amazing. Yeah. I mean, I wanna say like, thank you all for. asking me to do this and sharing with me too, because it like does help me not feel alone. It makes me feel understood in a way. And hopefully like we encourage each other, by saying I see you, I hear you. And I think we all just want the best for each other, which is like, that's the purest form.
Like, you know, Talking about our darkest form, which is like envy or pity or whatever. But I think our purest form, our deepest form and actually our truest form is we love each other and like we want the other person to be well and happy. However, that is however that makes you happy, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else, amazing.
That will make the world a better place. that's where I'm getting to as an adult where I'm like, oh my God. Like If we can do that, what a joy it is to be doing this job instead of what a pain. that's, again, perspective, like when I look at it like that, I get moments of joy, like when I get to be around my friends who make music, and then I get moments of sadness when I'm by myself in the dark mold growing up, me being like, does anybody care?
And then I'm like, Becca, go outside. Of course they do. That's on you bitch. Like, you gotta go outside,
[00:53:50] Aaron: yeah, we all feel that too, sitting in the darkness being like, why don't they care? Is such a shared experience that it's like, let's open that door for everybody and be like, Hey, we're all in this together.
We all feel this in.
Yeah.
[00:54:01] Becca: Yeah.
[00:54:02] Michaela: That's, yeah. A beautiful place to
[00:54:05] Aaron: wrap up. Yeah. Thank you for spending your morning with us and, and being so open and sharing so much about your experience with us.
[00:54:11] Becca: Yeah.
Thank you.