Edwin McCain has had 2 singles hit the Top 40 ('I'll Be' and 'I Could Not Ask For More'), released 11 albums, 5 of which have been on the Billboard 200, hosted a syndicated show on Sirius XM, and written and produced a series for Animal Planet. We talk with him about artists as the ambassadors of possibility, knowing what enough is, side hustles and putting your creativity into different outlets (he started, grew, and sold a construction business amongst other endeavors), stepping away from the industry to raise a family, and a whole lot more.
Edwin McCain has had 2 singles hit the Top 40 ('I'll Be' and 'I Could Not Ask For More'), released 11 albums, 5 of which have been on the Billboard 200, hosted a syndicated show on Sirius XM, and written and produced a series for Animal Planet. We talk with him about artists as the ambassadors of possibility, knowing what enough is, side hustles and putting your creativity into different outlets (he started, grew, and sold a construction business amongst other endeavors), stepping away from the industry to raise a family, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are a little more than halfway through the second year of this podcast and so happy to still be here with no slowing down in sight and thankful that you are here with us.
[00:00:25] Aaron: Yeah, because we absolutely would not have a show without you guys here. So real quick, before we jump into today's episode, I just have a few asks for you guys. The first one is I wanted to draw your attention to our Patreon community that we have. It is a way that you can directly support our show and keep it running down the tracks.
It takes a lot to produce a show, even as small as ours. And so any little bit goes a long way. We've got all the normal Patreon offerings over there, as well as some one on one coaching with Michaela or I, if there are slots open. Advanced notice of our guests. So you can have your questions answered directly by them.
And it's a living organism. So there's more at it all the time. It's growing. It's developing. If you're interested, there's a link below in the show notes. And then secondly, we like to say this show is for our community, from our community. And with that, the best way. Spread the word is word of mouth, and that's probably the way that you heard about our show. So if you've listened to episodes before and you have a favorite one that really meant something to you, if you could just take a second and pass that along to somebody that doesn't know about our show and might benefit from what we have, it's a great way for us to get in front of new listeners.
And then the more listeners we have, the more guests we can have to share ideas back with you guys.
[00:01:35] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on with this podcast is that we're not music journalists, we are musicians ourselves. So we don't even think of these as interviews, but more as conversations.
We're not asking about the latest record, the upcoming tour, we are talking about Life, all of the time off stage and how you build and sustain a lifelong career in a very challenging industry and stay connected to your creativity and your love of music, which started it all.
[00:02:05] Aaron: we do that by focusing on what's within our control because as we all know there's so much in this industry that is outside of our control and generally that boils down to our mindsets and our headspace and our routines hard earned wisdom on the road and through all successes and all rejections and failures that we face sometimes daily.
so with that, we've distilled it down to the underlying question. What do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to ask that question of our new friend, Edwin McCain.
[00:02:36] Michaela: Edwin McCain has had a 35 plus year music career. In the nineties, he had massive hits. I'll be, and I could not ask for more. We're top 40 hits five of his albums have been in the billboard. 200. He was on Atlantic Records thanks to Blowfish. He said they insisted that Atlantic sign him and he is out touring with Hootie and the Blowfish again.
Lifelong friends and really awesome the way that they've supported each other.
[00:03:05] Aaron: If you listen to episode 61 with Jim Feld, who is the drummer and songwriter in Hootie he's the one that brought Edwin to us.
So here they are again. Tag teaming on little show here.
[00:03:16] Michaela: we never know what we're getting into whenever we have a new guest on that we've never met before. And this was such a beautifully deep conversation about really keeping your feet on the ground especially through massive success and what the industry can demand of you and learning how to create balance and really staying in touch with how to live a good life.
[00:03:41] Aaron: Yeah. Edwin puts a name on it called gig snobbery and it's, that kind of thing that we've all. Witnessed or maybe experienced for ourselves. like the ratchet of the industry where you bump up bigger venue bigger venue and then you're like I can't play that gig.
I can't play that It's a this thing that's beneath you and all three of us just kind of like called that out in this episode It's really refreshing to see Someone like edwin who has seen mainstream success Still not feel like any gig is beneath him and just the gratitude to be able to play music in front of people also interesting to note that he after his years on atlantic stepped away from the industry for many reasons from burnout to just seeing a slow down to also just wanting to be with his family You hear a lot about women doing that and here's a man saying I wanted to be present with my kids and all of that You
[00:04:29] Michaela: he said, because I really enjoyed going to lacrosse and soccer games.
[00:04:33] Aaron: Yeah, it's beautiful. as we talked about with our guest in episode 70, Miko Marks, who stayed performing during her time off Edwin stayed writing, but he was saying he would, Just write songs for friends that have a big event in their life and he would write a song for them and send it to Him and that's that no strings attached.
No expectation or anything It's just creating for the sake of creating, just like did when we were young kids So it's a really fulfilling really grounding conversation from top to bottom that we just jump right in but with that Here's our conversation with Edwin McCain
[00:05:04] Edwin: Are you still on tour right now?
I'm always on tour. It's
kind of like painting the Golden Gate Bridge.
[00:05:12] Aaron: Get done and start again.
[00:05:13] Edwin: it's been like that for 35 years, basically.
[00:05:17] Michaela: Oh my gosh. you like that?
[00:05:19] Edwin: it's the only thing I've really ever known. It's, It's kind of awesome. During the pandemic I was working, doing some grading and land clearing stuff. So I was working a regular five day work week
Okay. weekends to myself. And I was like, huh, this is what everybody's been talking about. No wonder everybody loves the weekends so much. Okay.
[00:05:41] Aaron: matter how much you're on tour, Tuesdays don't really the same as a, Saturday off,
[00:05:45] Edwin: No, the Monday and Tuesday off is not nearly as cool as Friday and Saturday, Sunday.
[00:05:51] Edwin: yeah. Were
[00:05:51] Michaela: there aspects of that that you enjoyed or did it feel too you have a family, right? You have multiple
[00:05:57] Edwin: Yeah, I
[00:05:58] Michaela: and.
[00:05:58] Edwin: have three Children. So, I tell my friends like, if you've never sat in an excavator all day listening to a book on tape moving dirt, you're living an incomplete life.
It's pretty fun. And my wife always gives me a hard time. Cause like my whole career, I've always had these side hustles. And so this was no different. This was this land clearing business was a thing that I had on the side. And when the pandemic hit, I was like, you see, I'm a genius, you know, and, she makes fun of me. Cause ever since we've been together, she's like, you're going to give me that speech I don't know how long this music thing's going to last. Like I gotta. Go out here and come up with some other little thing I'm doing. for me. I think it's more about the adventure. I'm as ADD as they come. So anything, but same old, I'm in awe of these, like artisans that literally go in and all they do is build guitars all day.
And it's very precise and it's exactly the same. I marvel over that capability I'd lose my mind.
It's always about something what's new today.
[00:07:04] Aaron: How long have you had the land clearing business?
[00:07:07] Edwin: I sold everything when I decided to get back into the music business, I sold all that stuff about a year or so ago, but I had it for five years it was in varying stages. Like it started out. It was just me and a machine. And then it grew to this, we had bulldozers and excavators and dump trucks and all that stuff.
And then after the pandemic We decided to go, break it down. And it was turning into too big of a thing.
Mm hmm. I sold all the stuff and, I keep some of this stuff left at my farm, but I was Lee Bryce's talking me into doing another record and I was going to kind of reenter the music business at large, instead of just doing my little indie thing that I was doing for the last 15 years.
to me, it just made sense. I was like, all right if I'm going to go back in and do this, I got to do it full time. And
[00:07:57] Michaela: how does that look different of when you reference the indie thing you were doing for the last 15 years
[00:08:02] Edwin: so for 15 years, people would say well, when are you putting out a new record? I'd go, I'm not, because you're not going to buy it. like I go out and play my shows and I was playing like. 500 1000 seat rooms I would go out and tease the audience tonight.
I'm just going to play all new songs and they would go, no, they don't want to hear that.
so my take on it was let's just not pretend that anybody's interested to hear anything new from me. I'm going to go out here and play my catalog. The first rule of show business, give the people what they want.
so I was playing my little rooms that I love playing. And they're seated in quiet and really as a musician and a songwriter to have a room of 500 people understand what you're doing and have it be quiet and build out of that sort of exchange of emotion is really, to me, the highest level mean, I love that so much. It's not highest level but it's definitely the highest level of music for me.
So I was just kind of happily just making the rounds. And I have, most of the guys Craig's been with me 33 years and Larry's 26 and then on down from there.
So we were able to, make a living. And you know, we weren't breaking any records, but it was a good, decent living and nobody's messing with me and I can, make my own schedule and be home enough to raise my children. I don't regret that in any way.
that was definitely the right thing to do. But, then, Lee Bryce is such a good guy and he's just been after me for years. He's like, man, you can't just disappear. I was like, okay. he just kept calling me and are you ready yet? And I'm like, no, I'm not really.
I'm really enjoying going to soccer games and lacrosse games. I could feel the 90s nostalgia starting to bubble up. And I was like, I think maybe it's time to do it. And I don't have any illusions about some big comeback. I just think it's fun to be included in the conversation.
really the fun of making records with Lee and with Matt Ramsey and, it's touching to me that they would drag me out back in the yard to throw the ball around a little bit, it was pretty fun.
[00:10:06] Aaron: rewinding the tape a little bit, correct me if I'm wrong, when you first saw like, mainstream success, you were independent then, right? Was that pre Atlantic times?
[00:10:16] Edwin: not mainstream success. like a lot of bands in the Southeast. We benefited from the, timing, the Gladwellian timing, as I always call it. and I can't stress the importance of that. Like, you know, The grunge thing was winding down. Dave Matthews was starting to pop and Hootie was starting to pop and we were opening for both of those bands.
We were in the right place at the right time. it's not that I didn't work hard and we definitely worked hard, but. There's a timing component to everything, and God, we were in the maelstrom, we were just right in the bullseye of it, and the Hootie guys basically got me signed to Atlantic, they kind of made it, you know. conditional for them to sign to Atlantic. They said, we'll sign with you, but got to bring our friend with us. they signed me too. And they stuck me over on this little imprint label with Jason flom and lava, was perfect because Jason and I, are so similar in that we both have sort of this oppositional defiance and we want to do it things our own way.
And it was a perfect label for me to be on because can't say enough good things about the man. And he went on to co found the Innocence Project and he's just done so much more in life than just churning out hit songs. And we're still friends to this day, which is Mm too.
So all that said, really didn't kick off until about 94. And I got to be part of the music industry where we made records on two inch tape and Mm used to cold call program directors starting at 7 a. m. every morning, just start blowing phones up.
and it was just a different industry. I mean, It was a completely different music business then. And I loved every second of it. I'm still friends with the people that I worked with, when it was time to leave the industry, it was definitely time for me to go, I was burnt out by the time I left the label, I was in my thirties, but I had been living so unhelpfully. because I didn't understand balance, it was just go as hard as you can. And I spent a decade, living on three hours of sleep a night. And, from what I understand about sleep hygiene now, it's amazing.
And I'm not in an asylum still, honestly. I think that happens to a lot of artists because you come from hand to mouth and then when things start to happen, you can't slow the momentum in any way. It feels scary to slow the momentum, but then the momentum is what carries you sort of off the cliff.
So, I kind of had to learn that the hard way. tell Lee all the time, I was like, Hey man, if you're ever interested in, knowing how to do it the wrong way, just give me a call. I'll let you know.
[00:12:46] Aaron: When you said it's scary with the momentum for you, is it scary in the sense of this is freight train that can't be stopped or is it scary that this is my chance and if I
[00:12:55] Edwin: Yeah, we can't miss You know anything that comes our way we have to say yes to because it could be the next thing that puts us up a notch and you've become less and less intentional obviously the way the industry works, Everyone depends on you generating money and the more money they can get you to generate the more money they make and so there's No, impetus You There's no thought to creating balance and keeping people healthy and I was a, I chronic people pleaser. So I would never, ever tell anybody, no.
I didn't have the ability. we were just wide open. my sax player and I got into an argument. I had forgotten one of the appearances we made on the Tonight Show. He was like, remember the time we played, the Tonight Show with Hootie and played Use Me? I was like, we never did that. He was like, yes, we did. I was like, no, I think you're misremembering that. He was like, no, we absolutely did. And I was like, nah, you're crazy. And he literally had to go online and find pictures of us performing on the show.
And I was like, oh, I guess we did. that's how crazy it was. there was so much so fast. and everybody that's ever been in that sort of maelstrom understands what I'm talking about. And there's some people that are really great at it. Like Darius is really great at it.
I wasn't great at it. I eventually I couldn't keep that
[00:14:08] Aaron: Yeah. What did your time look like when you decided to leave the label and kind of step outta the industry as you're saying?
[00:14:14] Edwin: Jason was so nice about it. He called me up one day, he goes, what are we going to do with you? And I was like, I don't know, but it ain't this. And It was really so amicable too. He let me out on my deal he let me go with my videos and let me go with a lot of normally doesn't happen.
kind of just kept going at the time, you know, I just kind of kept on playing shows and just went back to sort of doing it my way. But I remember at the time was talking about with our guitar player, Larry, and was like, don't really know what to do. I'm, I don't know what the correct answer is.
And he looked across the bus and said this, me off to this day cause I'm so egocentric. I want to be the one that said this, but it was really Larry that said it. He goes, you know, when we go out there every night and we play, we really become the ambassadors of possibility for people. even if we're just doing it in little clubs, we still stand up there as representatives of people that had a passion for something and a dream to do something special and We get to do that. it's kind of our job to go out there and be that. I just remember looking at him across the bus, I was like, you f*&#er. Okay. Yeah, you're right. That's exactly what we're supposed to do. And so that's what we did. we just went back to doing the thing I really love, which is finding that perfect space between the notes, where the emotion of the and The execution of the notes, collide in this exact moment that makes people breathe in and feel what you're feeling. And that's what we're doing. had to drop any illusions about money and notoriety and also for a lot of reasons peer recognition or affirmation. Like, we just never were the cool band. We weren't, I've been blessed beyond, belief to have a 35 year career and whatever niche that I found myself in is light years, probably beyond what I deserve.
And taking back some context and being grateful for what you have and understanding what enough is, was an important part of dismantling my experience with the big time music business, because it's real easy to get caught up in chart positions. And, people are flying you around in private jets and There's a different economy that comes along with that and it's real easy to get this is what it is now.
No it isn't. It's crazy if it gets like that. I've never been really like that anyway. All my friends give me a hard time because I'm proud of the fact that I've spent less than 15 on everything I'm wearing. to sum it up, I think I just grew up like a lot of people would find the industry when it's really popping is like subtraction soup, man.
It's you can throw down your face, it's still never enough. And I'm happy with what I have. so this time, like getting back in the mix, like I'm so happy with what I have and I'm not really risking what I have. for me it feels I'm tidying up something I left undone. Um, the only best way I could describe it. The only way it could get any better is if I could do like my last couple of records with Jason and then put the period at the end of the Senate, like how people go back and retire on the team they started from.
That'd be fun.
Yeah.
[00:17:30] Michaela: everything you just said. It's so poignant because the reason we started this podcast is we're a married couple. We're both musicians in the indie world. I'm a singer songwriter, Aaron's a producer and makes music for TV and started out as a side person and we're in our thirties and started a family and the pandemic hit and we were just kind of like in this long enough, not even on a mainstream, huge level that we started to just notice.
hard it is to stay connected to why we do this in the beginning, we
[00:18:03] Edwin: Sure.
[00:18:04] Michaela: picking up instruments and I think we all think more affirmation you get, the more you'll feel like, yeah, I'm doing the right thing and listening to people who've had massive amounts of success, talk about how it doesn't fill that void and in some ways, It makes it even more disconnected is really interesting, like even to hear you say having to let go of your desire of wanting peer recognition because you didn't feel like you were ever like the cool band, I grew up in the 90s.
as soon as Jim. From Blowfish emailed me and was like, I think Edwin McCain might be interested. I was like hell Yeah, I know Edwin McCain like I know that's big hit forwards and backwards like to me You look at someone like you and it's like what he didn't feel cool He had massive amounts of success worked with these incredible songwriters as a hugely successful songwriter himself.
But there's all these little like and sources that we think go away by achieving, but they don't.
[00:19:04] Edwin: I say this all the time, like the thing that drives people to the stage and to performing is this perfect storm of egocentricity and neediness. it's a tornado, right? I don't say that to criticize either thing. it just is. And then the trick is just acceptance of where you are.
know people that are grievance farmers, you know, they walk through life and they find new things. pick up their grievance, they put it in their basket, and they carry it around. they're not wrong, my daughter and I have had this conversation, she's 15 and plays on a soccer team, and she comes home with a lot of complaints from her game, and she's not factually incorrect about what she's saying.
and I see a lot of myself in her because it's easy to see those things, to pick out the things that make you angry or indignant because anger is so easy, right? It's the simplest emotional switch to get flipped. And the challenge is to go, okay well, all those things that I feel about this situation are factually true, but concurrently, all these other things are true about it and if given the proper context of. gratitude and acceptance. There's a whole new perspective you can take for just about every situation that you're in. And so the challenge is always to take five seconds and be mindful of, how you're trending and then try to be grateful try to think in terms of gratitude and acceptance.
that's been sort of the game changer for me because can walk into a, venue and find 10 things wrong with it. Within 10 seconds of getting there. know, after a while, it's like, man, why don't I do this This is crazy. this isn't helping program.
And it doesn't change how hard I try. I try just as hard now with a good attitude as I ever did with a bad attitude. And I think it's back to growing up also having children because I was like most year olds were just, myopic, right?
We just, everything's about us and then you have children and then you're like, oh, none of me matters except for I got to stay alive and take care of them. And then that changes everything, which is why it was so easy for me to not really focus on my career for all these years and focus on them because I didn't mind going and working a real job if I needed to.
and I wanted them to see a work ethic, one of them to see I'm willing to do anything to take care of our family. And. They know that, right? would have been weird if they just saw me sitting around playing Xbox, you know,
Right.
um, the thing about this new music business, and I feel for y'all because where it is more of a meritocracy, it's inundated. the attention spans are so short,
I'm sort of in that heritage category where I play with REO Speedwagon and Styx and Michael McDonald and I are friends and I've played shows with him and, Kenny Loggins and that's a record for name dropping in one sentence,
but, but those guys, like they had, careers and they have full audiences of people that are literally going to be with them all the way out.
And I don't know if that exists younger fans now. they like things and then they drift into something else.
[00:22:13] Michaela: I've been putting out records on like small indie labels and independently for 10 years now. with the pandemic and with becoming a mother, there's been lots of changes in our life and my, relationship to, and all the changes in the industry. And I've recently been going out and doing Really small, just fan hosted living room concerts.
[00:22:32] Edwin: The house concerts are amazing.
[00:22:34] Michaela: I just got back from four of them and it was, my intention was like, I don't want to care about how many people are in this room. I don't want to get hung up on how come I'm not selling more tickets in this market than I did last time or whatever. I wanted to just connect with.
The people who were big enough fans that they wanted to open up their home and introduce me to their friends and family. And it was a really incredible experience because I was meeting people that I had no idea were out there that were like, I saw you randomly open a show in Minneapolis nine years ago.
And I had a great conversation with your mom who was selling your merchandise for you. And like, I've been on your email list and like Been watching me play shows and dive bars 15 years ago in New York City, and it was really reaffirming of like, Even if this is so tiny people are gonna be with me forever I have a lean enough Production that like I can sustain on that referencing what you said you're Musician said about being ambassadors of possibility for people.
I played in New York city to maybe 20 or 30 people in a little loft and one of my really close friends was there and I'm like, I could judge this as this isn't a big time show, but it was really beautiful. My long time super fans the next morning, she lives in a beautiful home out in New Jersey and she commutes to her.
job in the city and, makes way more money, but she texted me the next morning and was like, back in my job and your job seems way more exciting.
[00:24:08] Edwin: with 20 people in a room and, it doesn't matter where the moment happens, but those little moments happen, man, the thing that carries you through over and over again, and Maya Sharp and I were teaching this songwriting class in Greenville, and there weren't professionals there. It was mostly amateurs with some weekend warriors, but a lot of them came in with these, stars in their eyes. Like I'm going to write a song that's going to get cut, And I felt it like really important to go, listen, there's a 0.
0001 percent chance I'm just going to be level with you. About managing expectations. but what you're going to do with your songwriting your friends and family are going to hear you sing your songs and they're going to see you in a different light and connect with you on a different level. And what's that worth? can you put a value on that? you know, have deeper, richer relationships with people? the longer I live, the more I believe that the real currency in this world is our friendships, our relationships, My highest honor I could give somebody is to say I would leave my children with you for a week. And then the second thing is I would invite you into my people bring you into their, homes and introduce you to their friends and share moments like that. don't think you get a better and I got treading into dangerous territory here because I'm playing the amphitheaters with Hootie. This summer, it's so much fun to be in front of big crowds, but I'm not sure that I can have as powerful a moment at an amphitheater as I can in a living room ever.
And I think too, it's the space between the notes. in a living room, space between the notes is a canyon. And out there, sometimes it's like trying to communicate with a five or six year old. It's like, how are you?
[00:25:59] Michaela: Laughter
[00:26:01] Edwin: in any way.
[00:26:04] Michaela: to give you a compliment. I do like songwriting mentorship programs and I have a student, he's a grown adult and he went and saw you and Blowfish play in Colorado. And he told me he was so moved by your set because he was like, this piece big outdoor amphitheater.
You'd think people would just like maximize their time and play a bunch of songs. And he was like, I was pleasantly surprised. Edwin didn't do that. He like really stories and it felt like connected to him. And I was like, that sounds so beautiful. And,
[00:26:33] Edwin: I'm trying out there. Well, you know, the other thing is, it's like
for me is if I can get a laugh. especially an amphitheater that's not there to see me, I can get a good hard laugh out of them, man, it makes me feel good.
But yeah, that was the point. every day I sit there in all of the crew of these guys that show up and set all this gear up. And it all works I can't tell you. Every day in my normal life, when I'm going bar to bar, It's like we have one of those whiteboards.
It's been zero days since something didn't work. it's just, it's constant snafus and it's just, I walk around, I'm like, wow, everything works and everybody's on time and
wow. So much fun.
[00:27:14] Aaron: my life before being a producer, I was a sideman and would jump from band to band and just be on the road all the time and never fronted anything Drums is my first instrument. So I'd be playing drums with folks and I remember I was out on tour with a band and we spent two and a half weeks opening for.
the chicks who were the Dixie chicks at the time. and this is in Canada. So we're playing, where the Toronto Maple Leafs play like massive arenas. after the last night, we played in Toronto and had to drive Detroit after. And I got on a flight at six in the morning and flew to Atlanta because I was playing a show in Athens.
that band and their van coming from Nashville was like two and a half hours late to pick me up because of Atlanta traffic. So I just sat in the airport for like two and a half hours and we go, we load all our own gear into this tiny dingy bar, like a block away from the Georgia theater in Athens I didn't have monitors.
smelled like last night's beer and there was like 35 people there. And it was
[00:28:06] Edwin: Welcome back.
[00:28:07] Aaron: yeah, you know, it was like such a dichotomy, they were great in their own place,
[00:28:12] Edwin: we're
playing this little place in Memphis that we'd like to play. It's called Lafayette's and we're doing a full band show on our own and we're back in a club, you know? I love them like that because, kind of always sort of
saw
myself that way. I mean, I never played the amphitheaters.
I never got big enough to play them last year when Old Dominion invited me to come sit in with them at Red Rocks for two nights. When I got the call, I was like, I think they think I'm bigger than I am.
it's so interesting because they're so comfortable in that setting and like, they know how to move on stage and stuff. And like, I literally like. I feel like I'm just walking around out there like Frankenstein. I'm so stiff. Like, I don't know what to do. Like, I know how to operate in a sweaty club, man.
I just, the big stages. It's just so funny. It's
[00:28:59] Aaron: There's a lot of real estate up there
[00:29:01] Edwin: not that it's overwhelming with all the people. I just get self conscious. I'm like, is it weird that my arm is like that? What is that? Wait, how are you?
[00:29:08] Aaron: That's the benefit of having drums be my first instrument all that's taken care of I don't to
[00:29:15] Edwin: I know.
[00:29:16] Aaron: all my limbs are Already busy. It's like I'm good
[00:29:18] Edwin: I envy drummers, you know, cause I'm basically the drummer and the bass player for our acoustic thing. I'm playing acoustic guitar, but what I'm doing is playing bass and drums and then Larry's playing electric and, I wish I could play drums.
[00:29:31] Michaela: So I'm curious, so you said 15 years there you just were comfortable going out and playing your catalog and being able to really set your schedule and focus on family life. what did that do to your feeling as a songwriter?
[00:29:44] Edwin: I was writing songs for people and then just sending them to them. And that was it. there'd be something or some event that would happen in somebody's life and it would be songworthy and I would write a song about it and send it to them.
And that was the end of that. always felt weird about always demanding that music always pay me. music's constantly towing the cart all the time. Why can't it just be something nice, so that was part of the reason why I always had those side hustles and I know it's weird to amorphize.
Music as it's some kind of entity, but I always looked at it like this is how I'm going to it respect and not constantly depend on it to pay for everything. And so with the songs like that, I would write these specific songs for people. and with no intention of having anybody outside hear it.
and that felt correct to me. And that way I could still be connected to writing and be creative in that way. But I also found myself doing some other like creative consulting for companies I guess because how my weird brain works. found myself Working for this software company on the side, like coming up, helping the CEO with messaging and stuff like that.
And that's pretty fun for me, like creatively, cause it's just a different, way of being creative. I found a lot of other outlets where I could apply the way my mind works and feel that same sense of satisfaction without feeling like I was pushing this boulder up a hill or trying to pitch songs or and I guess part of it too is after you've experienced some success and then you keep going out there and like, Oh, Hey. I'm still here. That felt weird to me. That felt like they're looking at me like, Oh, here with this little change cup, you know? I didn't feel like that about it, and I just wanted to give it a rest. then my other every successful career like has to have some sort of stewardship. Which is why Maya and I were, like, doing that workshop and looking towards this next generation. And in the back of my mind, it was like well, you know, it's good to move out of the way. And there's a whole new group of kids coming up that, that's their stage they need to have that stage space.
I don't want to be clogging up the works when there's another group of twenty somethings coming along that has something to say. And I can write songs about sticky handprints that my daughter leaves on the wall at my house and be perfectly happy playing those, you know, people that want to hear it.
without the need to, be lap traffic. and looking back on it, I think that was the right thing to do. I don't regret it at all.
[00:32:15] Aaron: that kind of insight of, just finding the joy and the fulfillment in the creativity? Was that always something that you had or is that something that kind of came as a realization after you had been the wringer of the industry and burnt
[00:32:27] Edwin: No, I mean, I,
always just enjoyed the creative process, but I think it was more like the challenge of learning new things because I know how to go out and play my shows and do that whole thing, but then being included in the conversation with. TV commercials and stuff like that.
I developed a TV show for animal planet and we got on animal planet for like eight episodes.
And it was one of those things where it was like, you know, it'd be fun. It'd be fun to tell stories this way. I had never done television, so I. Came up with this concept and pitched it and got it on the air and did television and learned very quickly that I never want to ever do television ever again, as long as I live. it's really based around the storytelling. love the storytelling aspect of it. always so impressed with. Great writers and great filmmakers and obviously great songwriters, you know, when you're chained to three and a half minutes. David Wilcox seems to be the only person I know that can really get super deep in three and a half minutes.
I guess the short answer is I just wanted to try as many things that I could where I could sort of apply creative force and see if I was any good at it.
[00:33:31] Michaela: I wonder because a lot of the conversations we have with kind of younger artists is this struggle of Identity being so wrapped up in I'm a musician proving and looking for that validation and confirmation Via income if I make money from this, then I'm a musician. one of the things we would like to talk about is let's have some more transparency, especially as the industry is harder and harder to make a living in.
it feels like in our generation, there's a lot of trying to hide that. People do other jobs and we try on this, podcast to talk about like financial wellness and like, it's really actually wise to diversify and have lots of other things going on. Just like you said, when you proved that you were a genius, when the pandemic hit.
[00:34:19] Edwin: always had side hustles like always,
throughout my entire career. And it's not that I had to. it just kept me grounded to, you're not that special, when I'm laying underneath a machine, changing a starter out covered in mud and oil, yeah, you know what?
you're holiday yet. You're not the four seasons, you know, remember that. but also younger musicians that I work with, you've ever gotten on an airplane and flown to play a gig, then you're a successful musician. End of story. But the other thing too, 18 or 19, everybody was like why don't you move to Nashville?
I was like, cause there's 10, 000 of me in Nashville. a pretty big deal in Hilton Head Island, South Carolina. you. know, I'm playing 10 shows a week. I make a really nice living playing half and half cover songs, originals at a wing place, at Wild Wings. it was a fantastic lifestyle.
And that's the thing too. there's a lot of gig snobby. It goes on people feel like I'm too good to play that gig. No, you're not. And guess what? Nobody cares. There's a thing that happens to a lot of people where once they've moved up to a bigger venue.
I can't go back and play that smaller venue. Why not? I don't know where that came in somebody started acting like that and I was lucky enough to grow up and become friends with Kevin Kenny from driving and crying, who was my musical hero first and who has become a lifelong dear friend.
played gigs with Kevin in front of 70, 000 people. And I also played gigs where we rode around in my Cadillac and played pop up gigs in Mississippi to 15 people. promise you, we had as much fun at both gigs. he sort of set the standard for me. He couldn't care any less about money or fame or status or any of that stuff.
But. they're going to hold up his catalog in the same conversation with Arlo Guthrie. He's a conduit of music. It just pours through him. and I've always sort of said, you know, you want to be like, you want to be like Kevin, just take a real hard look at Kevin Kenny. if you want to see the actualized human being as a musician.
That's him. I strive to be Kevin Kinney.
[00:36:31] Michaela: Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot because even outside of the just musician community, just societally and culturally, there's this constant perception that you're only doing well as a musician if there's tons of people. Like, how many times, have I heard from people like, break is coming, or like, why don't you go on The Voice?
Or, I wish there were more people here tonight. And I'm like, you know what? good. I'm
[00:36:59] Edwin: I've
heard that so many times.
[00:37:01] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:37:02] Edwin: how long can we do this? How big can we make it? There's a gig for everybody. the challenge is being happy at your gig,
when I started out, I played all the gigs nobody wanted in Hilton Head, one of them was this place called Sneakers. And it was sort of this really low budget resort and it was kind of a knife and gun place. and it was a deck out on the beach.
And I just remember I was like 18 and I was like, I can't believe I get paid to sit out here. with my PV speakers and just remember, the 18 year old that I once was like, I was so thrilled to have the gig that nobody on that island wanted to play. a matter of keeping that, kid in my mind. All
[00:37:48] Aaron: that just the joy of just playing, it's really refreshing to me to hear you hold on to that sense of gratitude of just being able to do it. Cause it is a pretty incredible thing if you think about it, to be able to, to be know, you can sit wherever and sing these songs that you've written interpret songs that everybody already knows, for a
[00:38:05] Edwin: right,
[00:38:06] Aaron: make a connection with them one on one but there's connections that happen there in the audience and the crowd that don't involve you.
Yeah. You're creating this atmosphere in this environment for all of this like really amazing kind of human connection to happen and that's just an incredible thing at face
[00:38:20] Edwin: we're, was a guy that used to play on Hilton. That is guy, Tim Malchek. And he was a pretty famous songwriter from Nashville. he'd had hits
[00:38:27] Aaron: and
[00:38:27] Edwin: day and He had sort of retired to. so good.
would finish my gigs and just run down to Tim's gig because he was so good. mean, he was huge.
Like his guitar kind of sat sideways on his stomach,
[00:38:40] Aaron: have
[00:38:41] Edwin: And, but he was so good. He was such a good guitar player, such a great singer. And he was like playing at the corner of crab. And I used to just sit there and go, these people have no idea. what's happening in front of them, like the level of beautiful musicianship that's occurring while they're sitting there stuffing shrimp in their face but,that solo acoustic guitar player gig is like that sometimes. But that was my 10, 000 hours, right? How do you get people that definitely aren't there to see you to give a shit about what you're doing? if you can get that crowd, you can get any crowd, people have their backs to, you know, the whole thing. that and busking, I tell kids, younger kids too. I'm like. you really want to do this, that case out there on the street and bust for a few hours a day. toughen your skin up, figure out what connects with strangers that are trying to ignore you. Figure out the thing that gets through that.
And now you're on to something new and talk about finding an identity. Because I started out busking, you know, in the street in Charleston. I don't think people do that anymore. Now, like, I realized when it had changed, I got to Nashville, it was probably 2012, I came in to write with Lee for the first time, and we went out, and I saw these young 20 something, early 20 somethings, guys and girls, that had their social media teams.
Like around them, there's people with cameras just following everything they were doing and they were like all put together like they were already super famous. And I was like, Oh shit, this is what it is now.
This is image first music second, We'll find the songs later.
We just gotta, become a presence and then we'll figure out the rest of it. Instead of let me figure out who I am, what do I have to say? Okay.
it's not for me to say which way is right, it's clearly working.
[00:40:32] Aaron: Yeah, I would just have to speculate that if you find out who you are, what your voice is, what your art is, there is inherently more longevity in that.
[00:40:41] Edwin: Case in point, Ashley McBride.
got a chance to meet her and become friends, but there's no thing performative about what's going on there.
[00:40:49] Michaela: Yeah, and image, wise, she doesn't fit the mold of what we're like fed that pop country females are supposed to look like. And she has all of the talent and the songs to back it up.
[00:41:01] Edwin: she opened her mouth in the room. We were just writing and she opened her mouth and started singing. And I was just like. just final vocals, just pouring out of her mouth. And I've been working with Rebecca Lynn Howard
[00:41:14] Michaela: I
[00:41:14] Edwin: on my record.
Well, I can't tell you, she walked in and sang three songs, one take each, and that was it. mean, I've never heard a voice like hers. she was working with Vince Gill when she was younger and she had a deal back in the day.
And every industry executive in Nashville should be, uh, flogging themselves for somehow letting that
Mhm. fall away. There's no rhyme or reason. That's the other thing. That's the thing about it. That's the whole deal with Nashville, right? So it becomes dependent on these other people.
Whereas if you're just out there playing, it's just up to you. for me, it was never up to other people. Cause I was playing and don't mess. I was playing frat houses.
[00:41:57] Michaela: we talk about parenthood a lot on this podcast with musicians who are parents because we found, especially in our age group, it feels like such a, especially for a female musician, such like a, it's either or.
I've faced negative experiences from team members and stuff becoming pregnant and it just feels like it sucks and it's like it mentally is like rewiring your brain. We had Rhett Miller from the old 97s, do you
[00:42:23] Edwin: I know? right.
[00:42:24] Michaela: Yeah, Rhett was on and he talked about how when he and the other guys in his band started having kids They really intentionally pulled back and started changing their schedule because they wanted to prioritize family life And he was like did our careers suffer Probably would we have like
[00:42:42] Edwin: Oh
[00:42:42] Michaela: up if we hadn't done that don't know that either was really nice to hear that because I've You definitely also felt so pulled between ambition and career and family life and motherhood.
[00:42:56] Edwin: well what I
tell people they're coming into our life
We're not going to coming into their life. children come into the life you have they adapt better than anybody,
[00:43:06] Aaron: yeah, the first two years of our child's life. She toured with us.
[00:43:10] Aaron: I wasn't playing a lot, so as often I was just there. Being a dad helping, be a tour manager or whatever. But she toured with us, all over the States
[00:43:19] Michaela: and in
[00:43:20] Aaron: Europe. And
[00:43:21] Edwin: don't know The We're touring and vans and trains and like, it was so much fun. And people are just like, you guys are what? And we're like, this is possible guys. Yeah.
you the world is Incredibly kind the world becomes way nicer to you If you're toting a baby around with you because everybody understands
When Tiller was her age, we used to call her the uh, greeter for the planet we'd be in a restaurant and I'd look over and she'd be sitting on some dude's lap eating french fries off his plate. and then they would follow her out of the restaurant like, Bye, Tiller! You know, they're like,
[00:44:01] Aaron: That's amazing. That's
[00:44:01] Edwin: That's, I will say this and I can tell this just Despite this conversation, the peaceful warriors always find each other and support each other and it lasts,
like,
hmm.
some of them end up being really famous and very successful. But, for the most part, there's this incredible fabric of good people that just love doing what this is. David Wilcox, again, being one of them. I went up to his house for dinner, and he had all these young songwriters over for dinner and everybody sat around after we ate, and everybody played their songs.
They were incredible songs he's sitting there in his chair with this Cheshire Cat grin I would say he's of my musical fathers. And then here he is being musical grandfather to this new crop of 18 year old songwriters that are just. You know, Writing this really dense, intelligent, funny, complicated music just couldn't have been prouder.
And they're all playing weird tunings like him and I was just sitting there going, look what you did, Yeah.
And,
hmm.
all that to say, you know, like the Jimmy Harings of the world and Maya and, Garrison Starr and, all these people, that we've been blessed to know that are out here just doing it. for me, that's the real music industry it's not dependent on the things that come and go. It's just dependent on being kind and effective and reliable. Those things that matter.
[00:45:33] Aaron: Yeah. Our community here in Nashville calls them lifers. You know, There's a
[00:45:37] Edwin: Super lifers.
[00:45:38] Aaron: I'm a lifer versus trying to just be that match,
[00:45:41] Edwin: Yeah. old joke? I can't remember. It was the bass player that
Yeah.
been here for nine months. Can't get anything going. And he turned to him and said, Harlan Howard or something. He said, turned to him and said, yeah, nobody sent for you. the other thing I always remind myself, right before I go on stage, Voltaire's famous quote, Things that are too stupid to be spoken or sung.
[00:46:08] Michaela: man. Thank you so much. We don't want to take any more of your time, but this has been such a wonderful conversation. I'm so glad that you were interested and wanted to
[00:46:18] Edwin: Yeah, me too. Yes.
Sony and I go way back and anything he recommends I'm a hundred percent in on, so I'm glad we got to do this.
[00:46:26] Michaela: Awesome.
[00:46:26] Edwin: especially
It's really great to meet you and get to spend the morning chatting with you.
[00:46:30] Michaela: Definitely. Bye. See ya.