Emily Scott Robinson is a singer-songwriter with multiple records on John Prine's Oh Boy Records, and is a former social worker. Here we talk about the power of staying grounded in yourself and your needs, the endless hustle and grind culture of the business, validation addiction, mental health, and more.
Emily Scott Robinson is a singer-songwriter with multiple records on John Prine's Oh Boy Records, and is a former social worker. Here we talk about the power of staying grounded in yourself and your needs, the endless hustle and grind culture of the business, validation addiction, mental health, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hi, and welcome to the other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Schaffer Hayes. And
[00:00:04] Michaela: I'm your host, Mikayla Ann. And since this show is in its infancy, I assume you are a new listener. So thank you for checking
[00:00:11] Aaron: us out. We like to think of this show as the anti album cycle podcast so our guests don't come on.
like your typical show and talk about their new record or their tour. We called it the other 22 Hours cause we wanted to focus on the hours that were not on stage and explore the different tools and routines that our guests use to keep balance and inspiration in their lives when, things aren't so shiny.
[00:00:33] Michaela: Erin and I have almost 25 years of touring experience between the two of us. I've spent the better part of the last decade putting out records both on my own as well as with labels touring the world and building an independent career.
[00:00:46] Aaron: And I started making records in high school with friends and then spent years touring with a bunch of different bands.
And now I produce records and write music for TV and ads. And essentially we're lifers. This is what we do and this is what we've done for a long time. And we've learned that there's no one right way to go about building a career around your passions.
[00:01:05] Michaela: And specifically in an industry where so much feels out of our control and up to.
Or being in the right place at the right time, we wanted to focus on what is within our control.
[00:01:16] Aaron: So we decided to invite a bunch of our friends to have conversations about all the other times that are outside of the public eye and ask 'em the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so you can sustain your creativity?
On today's show we have Emily Scott Robinson. She's a singer songwriter from North Carolina that now lives in Telluride,
[00:01:34] Michaela: We had a really great conversation with Emily that we're excited to share with you. We've known Emily for several years and she's. Always been a seeker in life and shared a lot of wisdom on her own journey of how to stay grounded in yourself and your needs, first and foremost. Some of the challenges through that of falling victim to shoulds social media and validation addictions, how to set boundaries with oneself and how when you don't, that can really lead to falling victim to the endless
hustle and grind
[00:02:04] Aaron: culture. We also touched on. Engaging in art to inspire us the different cycles of creativity and just trusting the process and relaxing into that. And in a classical Tennessee winter situation, you can hear a severe thunderstorm roll through in the middle of it.
And we have hail as some nice golf ball sized hail, golf ball size, hail some nice background noise throughout. And without further delay, enjoy our conversation with Emily Scott Robinson.
[00:02:29] Michaela: Hi. Emily
[00:02:30] Emily: Hi . It's so good to see you both. I love you and I'm like sad to live so far from Nashville because I wanna spend so much more time with you. So thank you for having me on today.
[00:02:42] Michaela: Oh, well thank you for being on and I, you always say that you feel sad that you don't live in Nashville, but I'm like, you live in the most beautiful place, so
[00:02:51] Aaron: just stay. So we'll train anytime,
[00:02:52] Emily: It's true.
Yes.
[00:02:53] Aaron: you wanna do a house swap?
[00:02:55] Michaela: Yeah cuz last time we were in Telluride with you. We were on this epic mountain biking trip. We were
[00:03:03] Aaron: in, we woke up in Durango and this other couple that had a van we woke up to them walking up to our van because their van wouldn't start and they needed a jump.
And he is like, you guys should go Telluride. It's so close. And so we just up and went to Telluride in,
[00:03:17] Michaela: called you.
And we called you. Yeah. .
[00:03:18] Emily: it
was
[00:03:19] Michaela: were just like, Emily, are you in town? And then you and I spent the day hiking and talking about all of the things that we'll probably talk about today. And Aaron went biking and I just prayed that he didn't die by himself
on the mountain ?
[00:03:33] Emily: can we just say that Aaron came up from sea level to 9,000 feet and hammered out like a 15 mile bike ride That is too hard for me and I live here and just like in no time , and I was so impressed.
[00:03:49] Aaron: I mean, to, to keep myself humble. I only really had to pedal for like a mile and it was all uphill. And I walked most of it cuz it was so high and I couldn't breathe. And then I just I just coasted for an hour and it was the most amazing bike ride of my life.
[00:04:02] Emily: Yay. Okay, good. I love to hear that
[00:04:05] Aaron:
[00:04:05] Michaela: Anyways, let's get started. So the whole premise of this podcast feels like you are the perfect guest for this. And when we first started talking about this, you were one of the very first people we thought aboutwe were kind of reminiscing about how we all met. And Aaron met you first.
[00:04:22] Emily: That's right. Yeah. I think it was for my first full band album release show in Nashville. And it was the first time I'd ever really hiredmusicians. Right. And It was all through referrals. And I feel like Aaron, you might have been the first person that I messaged,
[00:04:40] Aaron: I'm honored. I didn't know that.
[00:04:41] Emily: I think I asked Ron Pope and Blair, I was like, I need a drummer.
And they were like, you should ask Aaron .
And so,
I did, and then you set me up with a bunch of other players, like Youth Yo jz. And it was, it was an amazing show. It was so awesome. And that's how I first met you. And then Michaele Ann, I met you. I think the, when was the first time I met you? Was it at
[00:05:05] Michaela: at the show.
Yeah, cuz I came to the show. and then, and we met and connected and then, but the first time we really hung out I think was 38.
[00:05:14] Emily: Oh yeah, that's right.
[00:05:16] Michaela: where we spent you, me and Robbie, heck spent the whole weekend together. And that was when we just kind of, in our natural ways, went deep pretty fast. And then I was not surprised at all when I learned that your, career before songwriting was social work.
[00:05:34] Emily: yeah,
[00:05:35] Michaela: we kind of thought that might be a good place to start just because it's such a unique foundation.
If you wanna share
that background.
[00:05:43] Emily: so I was a social worker. I, I started working in the social work field right out of college. And I worked as a, like a case manager at a non-profit in southern Colorado. Alamo. And I helped unhoused families who were in transitional housing. And so they were Given a super subsidized rent and provided all of these different services. and then I worked for a couple of years, as a social worker at a nonprofit for victims of domestic violence and sexual assault.
I speak Spanish fluently, so I worked primarily with Spanish speaking women. and members of the community. I did a lot of work on immigration advocacy, that was the time when DACA was, passed under Obama's administration, so I helped a lot of people apply for that.
I also helped women apply for this thing called the U Visa, which is for victims of a violent crime who are undocumented immigrants. And so that was a pathway for about eight to 10 of my clients to actually get permanent residency, their green card, and then eventually apply for citizenship.
And they were also able to do that for their children. So it was like a really powerful, yeah, it was a really powerful path of healing for, for people who had been through so much trauma, also, they were like living in a really insecure way. Like the fact that, to be an undocumented person is to, I think, to live under kind of a constant state of threat and fear, especially depending on who is in power and like what their agenda is generally.
And so yeah, I did that for a while and I learned so much about myself and I learned I don't know, I guess I just, I learned a lot about the world. It was my early, early to mid twenties and I learned a lot about trauma and, and healing. And I was also going through a lot of healing myself from trauma from things that I'd gone through in my early twenties.
And so, it. . It was a pretty incredible experience and I also kept hitting this wall where I was, I was getting burned out and I felt like I was just constantly kind of depleting my battery without having good ways to fill it back up. And I had a teacher slash therapist of mine ask me about my creative practices because at the time I was, I was singing and playing, like I've been singing and performing and mostly playing covers since I was in high school.
And I loved it. And she asked me like, what are your creative practices or what are the ways in which you engage, engage with creative energy? And I really didn't have any I had pretty much abandoned music. and I was kind of living in a state of burnout and survival even in that work. So I was like giving, giving, giving, but having no way to fill myself back up.
And so I took some time off work to go to this songwriting workshop up in lions, Colorado. And they do this week long songwriting camp. And I went up there and it sparked this thing in me that I really didn't know was there.
Like I, you could have asked me at any point up until the age of 25, if I had any plans on of being a professional musician and. . It hit literally not crossed my mind , which is crazy. It's that's so weird. I just was like, no, that's not for me. I can't do that. And part of my perception of, my heroes like Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell and James Taylor and Annie DeFranco and all of like the, the folk artists and songwriters who I love through the years was that it just kind of came easy to them.
I, you know, I think this is something we're gonna talk about, about perceiving people's outside and going oh, well, they're just a genius and they're just gifted at this.
And
[00:09:27] Michaela: they always knew
[00:09:28] Emily: and they always knew. And I had never seen a really honest example of the winding path that is the path of a creative and an artist.
And so I just was like, well, songwriting is hard, so I must not be good at it. And it was like such a simple, it was a simple block that I had. And, and that was the first time I ever met indie musicians and artists. Like I met Mary Goshay at that songwriting workshop. And I met a bunch of other artists and it was the first time I saw an example of, indie grassroots songwriters who had built their career from the ground up, who had done different things, who didn't always have an easy path, and yet they were there and they were making it work.
They were paying their rent most months and
[00:10:11] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:10:11] Emily: and uh, they were just like generally really cool people to hang out with. I ended up leaving my job as a social worker eight months later. And then starting a very slow journey to becoming a musician.
[00:10:24] Aaron: That's amazing. So you, really stepped into writing as an outlet from your other job. ,
it was like it was an escape, and it was a way for you to keep balance in your life.
[00:10:34] Emily: yeah, completely. it was strange because I was gigging a little bit before I went to this song camp, and uh, I remember having a moment where I had schlepped a bunch of gear to restaurant and played for a couple of hours, and I was very exhausted and I wasn't enjoying it anymore.
And I , I did have the thought cross my mind, maybe I'm just not meant to do this anymore. And. At the time I was singing covers and I didn't have any really original songs. I had one that I had written and I was like, that's the one. The rest of them have been too hard, so I guess I'm not supposed to write.
And so I was really Mary Goshay in one of her workshops, just really, she's like a street preacher, of a teacher, you know? She's like, she's there's a story in you that has to come out. There are truths that you need to tell and that's really what this is about. and I knew that I had truths in me and stories in me to tell.
But it was such a, so it was like such a soft and subtle call. And I didn't, you know, it wasn't this like dramatic epiphany. It was just sort of uncovered itself for me over a couple of years. And in the beginning, my dreams were really small. Like they were very safe. They were what I could envision was possible for that time.
And then as I went on, they became bigger or they, they adjusted to what I had achieved already. And so, yeah, it's been, it's been a really amazing journey for me. And also like a spiritual path for me. This is a calling and it's every lesson, everything I've learned about myself as a human in the world has been contained in this path.
So much of it has.
[00:12:18] Michaela: Yeah. one, I love how you're sharing, that you didn't know from the day you were born that you wanted to be a musician and this is all that you wanted to do. cuz I felt that way too, that often there's this kind of hierarchy of well, if you don't want it enough, then you shouldn't be here, type of thing.
Or if you didn't know from the start and that kind of question of maybe this isn't for me. I feel like I still have that question come up at different times in life. so I love that because these conversations that we wanna have is honestly sharing that there's no one way, there's no one way to be an artist, there's no one way to build a career.
And having those kind of stereotypes and expectations demystified. My question is, so you kind of got into music as an outlet for your career. Now that music is your career, do you need an outlet to help balance reset? You
[00:13:13] Aaron: know, I imagine you don't moonlight as like a immigration advisor to offset the stresses of your music career, but
maybe you do.
[00:13:21] Emily: I mean, sometimes I feel like, as I'll be honest, sometimes I feel like the things you can achieve, like the concrete deliverables that you can get out of being like an immigration paralegal or attorney, are like more clear and rewarding sometimes than, than, than the like, Then this sort of funky abyss we sometimes swim through as as artists.
And okay, so Erin, one of your posts at the end of the year, about year end lists spoke to me so hard, because I released this project this fall that I was so excited about and so proud of and it didn't make any yearend lists. And you pointed out and reminded me and all the other people who saw that, that there were so many more of us who make amazing work, who don't get the year end lists for whatever reason.
And we need to remember We're not making music for those reasons. And I remember explaining to somebody why that was a little challenging for me because I have the, probably unhealthy truth, that our art is, our identity is our career, is our identity, is our main thing.
We do, we spend so much time doing it. And so I don't have a lot of other outlets. One of them is biking. I love mountain biking. I love cycling. And that makes me really happy. And then the other thing I've been just trying to do this year is rest more just rest, just chill. Like read, read a book that's fiction that
[00:14:58] Aaron: Make time for yourself.
[00:15:00] Emily: See family, you know, we're all getting to the age, right? Where like our family, our parents are a little older. we're having children, our relatives are having children. And so. , I'm coming to a point in my life where that really matters to me more just showing up for family and being together with them.
but I will say I probably definitely have an unhealthy relationship to my career. It's because it's all wrapped up.
It's all together. .Yeah.
[00:15:24] Aaron: I mean that's the pitfall of you know, as much of a blessing as it is to be able to make a career out of your passion, it becomes all encompassing and it's hard to separate who you are as like a human being from the work demands.
Right. And going back the year end list thing and all of that I forget how you said it exactly, the abyss that we swim around in the funky abyss. Yeah, the funky abyss. It's definitely a funky abyss. And it's, it's because it's, it's because pretty much everything in our career beyond writing songs and creating records is entirely out of our control.
[00:15:58] Emily: yeah.
[00:15:59] Aaron: You know, we can't control how many people listen to our records. We can't control, how many people come to our shows. We can't control, whether there's gatekeepers along the way being talent buyers or playlist agents, curators or agents or labels or anything like that.
it's like pushing against a curtain. There's nothing there to push back against to get any feedback of like, how am I doing on something that's tangible that we can control.
[00:16:22] Emily: Right.
[00:16:22] Michaela: I think also now more than ever there's this perceived, quantifiable element of our art because of social media numbers and data.
Streaming numbers, data. Yeah. which really, if you break it down, we think, oh, this is a reflection of how well I'm doing and how well I'm liked and how well my music is perceived. And everyone can see it. So everyone's judging when really nobody's looking at our shit.
also the numbers don't actually equate much. it doesn't actually translate to fans, it doesn't translate to income. You know, all these different things. But it fucks with our heads so much more because we pour our heart and souls into this creation and then we put it out there and we are like, okay, how many people are telling me that I did a good job?
And now we have all these measurements, and then we see all of our friends sharing their measurements and then we're like, well, how do I stack up? I really think that, we're Really unwell . And we have these conversations with friends, you know, quietly, even friends on so many different levels of perceived success, of super high numbers of followers who still feel the same struggle. it's really detrimental to our ability to create and also just be happy, healthy humans.
[00:17:52] Emily: That, that, all of that, all of that, all of that. I wanted to point out another pitfall that I have fallen into that I think is something we don't really talk that much about, which it, it's that whole, like my art is my career, is my identity. When things are going well, we internalize that and we go
Oh my God, I made this art and these songs, and they're really connecting with people and they, they've found their way in the world and it ended up on npr and I'm getting all these messages and new followers and new opportunities and that's because I'm on the right path and I did the right thing by excavating my soul.
And then we do that for a second record and those things don't happen. And so we internalize it again and we internalize our, perceived failure, right? We think that at least I kind of do as this sort of like spiritual, pseudo perfectionist, it's like I over personalize things about the music industry that are not within my control.
Like everything that you've said, Aaron, about the gatekeepers, the promoters, the, the nature of touring after Covid, the way ticket sales are now. Like the way, I don't have the same advanced ticket sales that I had before, before Covid, because people wait until the day of, or people just aren't going to shows the same way.
The, the fact that you might have a publicist who like knocks out of the park, or you might have a publicist who totally sleeps on the record
[00:19:18] Michaela: Mm-hmm. .
[00:19:18] Aaron: And that could be the same publicist on two different
records, and it's just the, the nature of their industry too.
[00:19:24] Emily: Totally. And you also may be like putting out a record at a weird time of year. Who knows? But it's, hard because, I do think that I, that's been one of my pitfalls is I take it personally when it's going well and I'm like, yeah, you're doing it.
And then I take it personally when it's not going well. And so I would say for me, the biggest way that I've built resilience is this, is connecting and talking and building community with my fellow artists who are having these conversations where we're bringing those like dark little thoughts, those feelings of shame or inadequacy out into the light.
And it is conversations and community and it is also creating things with other artists. That has actually been my most powerful antidote in the past year has been like, oh, I forgot what good medicine it is to create,
to piggyback on what you were saying about having these vulnerable conversations bringing it out into the light. It reminds me of a phrase I think about a lot and it's that mold grows in darkness, and so it's let's just talk about it. Like we're all way more similar than, than we let on, like we all feel this no matter what level.
[00:20:38] Aaron: yeah, we're high as shit when things are going. and we really personalize that. And then we're really low and really down when things aren't going well. And the thing is, is that's just two sides of the same coin,
[00:20:47] Emily: And I see, People on Twitter, right? Who I'm like, you have a book deal and you're signed with a huge label and you play like thousand to 5,000 cap rooms you own your own house. Like I see all these things that I perceive as measures of success from the outside. And Twitter is kind of where we all go to like dump our complaints and dark feelings.
And so I'll see somebody who I perceive to have a tremendous amount of success. They have all the things that I think would make me happy,
And they're on there going, damn, the low times are so brutal. And they're having the same fears and the same insecurities and the same depression and anxiety that I have at this
level. And so for me, it's put me kind of into this head space where I go, oh, okay, no matter what my career does, no matter how well it goes, , I will always have these periods of growth and these periods of death and transformation, I will go through cycles of hopelessness and anxiety no matter how big I get or no matter how successful I get.
And so, oh, okay. This is just the nature of being a human who puts art out in the world in a vulnerable way. , and also we live, in a society that does not take care of the vulnerable. So the fact that we have to to be able to get basic medical care. and often don't receive it.
And the fact that we generally have to pay for therapy out of our pockets. a, we have a system that does not support the most vulnerable. B Mikayla, you and I have talked about this, we don't have a system that supports mothers and families, right? Like our, our culture.
And so there are also these huge gaping holes in our social safety net that I think make this an even more precarious life for, for a musician,
[00:22:46] Michaela: Yeah. Cuz there's that added layer of, okay, there's the emotional attachment to doing well. But then there's also the survival aspect of doing well of I wanted my career to go well because I need to make a living to provide for myself. And musicians often are trying to just make the bare minimum of a living.
what you were saying about, you know, the perceived level of success and people on higher perceived levels than you. Understanding that they have the same type of things. I think there's this great misconception, especially when we're early in our careers and younger, is that we see, okay, we have this dream and if we get these things, we'll be happy and we will be satisfied.
And that's the key and that's the answer. And I think the longer we're all in it, and especially when, we've had ups and downs of it and had times where we feel like we're flying high and then, oh, it's not just like a steady incline, it dips back down and then nobody seems to give a shit about you.
And then all of a sudden people are paying attention again. And I think then you start to understand oh, this isn't the answer. And there's a difference between happiness and contentedness and. Dopamine hits that maybe last for a year, from being on a high. But
I watched the Sheryl Crow documentary recently, and she talks about this, that she, you know, three records in or whatever, she was winning Grammys every time.
Like biggest pop star and then not, and the deep suicidal depression that followed because you're not getting all the invites, you're not getting the awards. And I was just sitting there on the plane thinking oh, there is no key. Like no amount of success is going to protect you from, feeling rejection, feeling unworthy, feeling less than.
So what do we do to try and keep ourselves as healthy as possible to stay in the thing that we have control over, which is making music no matter who's listening.
[00:24:50] Emily: Yeah. wow. I just got chills when you said that too, about Cheryl Crow because in some ways, like to hit that level of like international superstardom and then to suddenly not be getting. is really, really dramatic. Like incredibly dramatic.
[00:25:08] Michaela: the thing that I've been doing so much more in the past couple of years, I feel like I've moved into this part of my life where I'm just like leaning deeper into the questions rather than trying to have a quick answer for them.
[00:25:17] Emily: Right? It's that, RKA quote about living the questions now because you, wouldn't be able to understand the answers in this moment.
And I am, I'm paraphrasing it, but it's a quote that I love. So rather than being like, okay, here are all the ways I like fix that thing, those issues, like here is the checklist of things I do, I think this kind of experience just talking to you all and being in community and going ah, we don't really have a, an easy answer to this, but we are exploring it and in the meantime we're being present for each other.
And another thing, you and I have talked a lot about mental health. I recently started an antidepressant and that has really helped me so much . It's kind of, I actually kind of wanna make a lot of jokes about it, but sometimes people can't take like dark humor.
But, major depressive disorder runs in all the women in my family and it's is it depression or is it like being in the patriarchy and like the forties,
[00:26:18] Michaela: and and hormones,
Mm-hmm.
[00:26:20] Emily: it's but A couple things that happened for me, which is like during Covid, I qualified for Medicaid in Colorado because I wasn't working.
So I went on Medicaid and then I suddenly had free healthcare and that kind of changed my life. I forgot actually how much I needed that. So I was able to go to the doctor and I was able to access free therapy. And with that time and space I was able to explore the possibility of you know, like a pretty moderate to light medical regime for a depression.
And when I was existing as a musician and I was traveling full-time and I couldn't really access Medicaid and healthcare, to be honest, I was Only seeing alternative practitioners, which there's nothing wrong with that, but I was being told by alternative teachers and practitioners that my depression was just something that I could fix, like on a spiritual level.
And I had no actual medical practitioner who was evaluating me for my mental health condition. And when I did, I remember my doctor being like it sounds like you've had depression for like most of your adult life. . And does depression run in your family? Yeah. Okay. Well, do you wanna try something? You know, because it seems like you have a pretty serious chemical imbalance in your brain and it has actually helped me build resilience. With the thought patterns in my head where, when I'm having a rough day, cuz I still have rough days, I still have negative feelings all the time.
We all do. I can actually say to myself like, it's okay for you to have a down day. Do you wanna go for a walk? Do you wanna watch something on Netflix? What are the things you could do to just kind of pass the time and be with yourself rather than just trying, rather than reacting to your own negative feelings and getting further and further and further into it.
And Mala, you wrote this song and you played it on like a Instagram live that we did together. And I think it's called it's just a feeling,
[00:28:19] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:28:20] Emily: and to me it was about depression or negative thoughts. and I actually like really kept returning to that mantra. A lot in the past couple of years, like it's, this feeling isn't gonna be permanent.
So, medication has helped me a lot and one of the reasons I say that out loud is actually because I had a real stigma around medication for a really long time. And the way that I was able to kind of get over that stigma was by several friends who were close to me telling me that they were also on antidepressants.
And I was like, oh, okay, maybe I could try this. I don't know, it just gave me the nudge. as much as I want to believe in this way of like us all being naturally healthy and whole. I think that one ignores, like often ignores our biology and is two, it often ignores the very real world that we live in. and the real lack of resources and support that we have. The ways in which, like an individualist hyper independent society with capitalism that pits us against each other in a competitive career space, the ways in which that takes a huge toll on who we are as humans, because we're really built to live in community and we're, built for something deeper than that, you know?
[00:29:35] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:29:36] Emily: So, yeah.
[00:29:38] Michaela: I think. you and I come from a similar background, and Erin as well of a naturopathic kind of holistic approach to things as well as like alternative healing and energy work and all of that stuff. And I've also had a resistance, I think because in America, we've also been forced to be a, a pill popping society and preyed upon by pharmaceutical companies that there then can be this resistance of no, no, no, I'm gonna do everything I can to not go down that path.
But normalizing, the stigma the other way And you kind of being open to that And sharing that has helped me be open to it as well. And my therapist said this the same thing of what it can do is just help your brain, choose a different pathway that when you're having a really dark day, instead of just continuing down that, ditch that your neuro pathway has created a little bit of help will just help you pick a different path.
But yeah. that song, it's just a feeling I wrote inspired by Tara Brock, who's mindfulness Western Buddhist teacher.
Um,
[00:30:42] Emily: Introduced me to her.
[00:30:43] Michaela: Oh, good. Yeah.
Erin introduced me to her
[00:30:46] Emily: Oh, alright.
[00:30:47] Aaron: I had a therapist introduce me to her, so, you know, we just keep passing her along.
[00:30:53] Michaela: Yeah. But I always say she's my natural Xanax because if I'm having a hard time, I need to take a bath and put on a Tara Brock podcast.
But she talks a lot and it's a also like a very common mindfulness practice of observing our thoughts and feelings and not attaching our identity and believing every single thing that we think,
[00:31:12] Emily: Totally. to continue off of that. I think we also have an unhealthy. Relationship to discomfort. And we think, I mean obviously like when we're uncomfortable, we wanna get out of it as soon as we
can. And I think we live in this society that really makes us think that there's something wrong with us when we're going through quiet periods, restful periods periods of depression or just feeling lower, lower energy, lower emotionally.
And we pathologize that. And partially, I think we are internalizing the exploitative nature of capitalism, right? That's telling us we should be producing all the time, all the time, all the time. We should be high and happy all the time. Look at us, we're living our dream
[00:31:56] Michaela: Yeah. And then share it
[00:31:58] Emily: Yeah. And then
immediately share it. And we're feeding this machine this, like super terrible toxic, positivity machine . And I often think of this truth that we're, we're part of nature, we're animals. We go through the same cycles as nature and we should expect that and lean into it even when it's hard. I think of it like the seasons.
It's why it's hard for me to be obsessed with goal setting in January. Cuz I'm like, it's the
winter, it's the quiet
time.
[00:32:28] Michaela: we're wintering.
[00:32:29] Emily: Yeah. We're wintering, we're wintering in our lives. And you shared with me that book Wintering. And so periods of going through grief, surrendering, letting go, dying, then like waking up and being transformed and leaning into this new part of our life.
I think that we don't necessarily want to accept that those cycles are part of who we are as artists and humans. And that we should always treat ourselves like humans first. And I think that we, oh, I think that we fall into this trap of treating ourselves like, money making machines as entrepreneurs.
And it depletes us. It depletes us. And it's harmful. It's harmful to us.
[00:33:09] Aaron: yeah, and I think about it a lot, how much social media perpetuates that stereotype that artists are always creating, always, putting stuff out, always doing great. what I've been able to kind of distill it down to is that it's Idolization of celebrities.
And not that any of us are massive celebrities, but the two of you specifically, I mean, there are people all over the world that follow you on social media and know who you are and know what's going on. I mean, touring with Michaela, I've shown up at shows that we've played in Sweden.
People are like, your wedding was beautiful. And I'm like, whoa, whoa. Wait a second here.
[00:33:44] Emily: That's
[00:33:45] Aaron: Uh, yeah. But,
[00:33:47] Michaela: but with that also very private person married to an a classic
[00:33:51] Aaron: overshare, a absolutely. But where I was getting with that is whether it's stated or not, that's almost expected of a public figure on social media to be like, I'm creating this because that's what gets engagement and tying it back to data that's what makes the numbers better
and it puts you in front of more people and builds your But. between artists, that's really detrimental because as much as, we know what goes into the sausage, we're sitting there looking at it and seeing oh, this person's doing great and they're writing this, and they're writing all the time, and they're putting this out and like, look at this person.
she just put out a book and she has a new record and she's on tour. And even though we know that there are, that's not the whole story.
That's not the whole story. And there's real life happening there as well. That's what is publicly facing And it, I think it just makes the lows even lower.
[00:34:36] Emily: completely. it's hard to fathom actually what's expected of snl. as artists in the era of social media I sometimes envy people like Amy Puller, the actress she does, she's never had social media.
And I'm
like, that's amazing that you just never had to do that.
Like you just never had to do that. And, One thing that I did this year
I went through divorce last year and I kind of like pulled up a curtain around myself with social media. I used to share so much about my life and just like lots of videos and kind of behind the scenes stuff.
Instagram is a platform I'm most active on, so it was mostly there and I felt way, way, way too vulnerable to share any of that. , And one thing that I did kind of at, at the advice and encouragement of my therapist was I just, I waited until my body felt safe and ready. I did a lot of work with somatic therapy this year and kind of work with my nervous system and cultivating a sense of safety during moments that were traumatic or sad or full of grief or scary for me.
And so I waited until I was super, super ready But I also it just really altered my relationship to social media and I put myself first again and I thought, okay, I actually want my social media to be integrated with who I am as a human.
at, at this point in my life, 35, I've been divorced. I'm, I'm partnered again. It's wonderful. And I also have just pulled up the curtain a little bit and the place where I actually feel the safest to share the real truths are on stage with my audience and through my songwriting. And again, I don't, like super, super overshare.
I'm not like telling all the details of that But I feel safer actually sharing that with real people in a room than I do. online in this
two-dimensional way. And it's also just something that I think is a special treat. If you come to a live show, you're getting the real me in person, and I see that the younger generations who have grown up in this social media area are hitting that wall as well.
I've met a lot of Gen Z kids who are just like, nah, I don't fuck with that.Who are returning to this in-person based way of connecting. And I think it's really healthy. I think we keep meeting these walls and recognizing how really, frankly, harmful it is for people's mental health to just constantly be in this space that's not person to person.
And so, yeah, I just kinda drew up the curtain a little bit this year and was like, Nope, I'm not sharing this while I'm going through it. I, I'll share this eventually when I feel really safe in my body to do so.
[00:37:16] Michaela: Yeah. Good for you. Yeah.
Yeah. It's interesting cuz you know, we have an 18 month old child and
even though she's not anywhere near having social media, It's making me evaluate so much of like, why do we all post every time we hang out with people so that we want the world to know who we're out to dinner with, and like, why do we want people to see that?
We're going on a walk with this person. why is this now a habit of ours? what's the motivation? is it just I'm so excited I'm spending time with my friend? Or am I trying to prove something? Because also when you're, the one viewing it, sometimes it just inherently makes me feel bad because I'm constantly being like, oh, they're hanging out without me.
Oh, they didn't invite me. Oh, they never invite me. You know?
It instantly makes me feel like I'm a kid that went to school on Monday and overheard how everybody went to a party or a sleepover over the weekend and I didn't get invited. And that pain is now tenfold because it's in your face constantly.
And I'm like, what are we gonna do? How do you handle that as a parent for
your little child? And thatreal feeling. So I think, evaluating our practices, not just limiting how much we're on it, but also the ways that we have just habitually come to share and really thinking of that a kind of more conscious practice
is something I think about.
[00:38:31] Emily: Do you know what is a real flex? Hanging out with people and not posting about it.
That is that is the real Flex .
two things that I've kind of come to with social media, this stuff happened before social media. It's just in our face all the time. And trying to remind myself of that because I'm not immune to feeling these ups and
[00:38:49] Aaron: downs at all. And then also coming to a realization for myself and my posting ofchecking with myself, why am I posting this?
And more often than not cross my fingers, I feel like I'm in a better place with this. But like, more often than not before it was to get a, dopamine hit and to get that high and it was like full-on drug addiction of I want that elated feeling from likes I wanna be seen.
I want that validation. And so it's taken a lot intentional work on myself to be. Hey, Aaron, I see that you want validation. That's okay. But maybe you don't need to look this way because it's shortsighted at the least. It's, you could say it's hollow, it's all that, but it's only gonna be a temporary thing.
So what do I really need? And how can I create that for
[00:39:29] Michaela: myself? Right? And it's
not the meaningful deep validation that we're actually seeking by feeling seen by the people we love. So we turn to our phone and wanna get, some validation through a bunch of strangers and friends and family who are on there too.
It's seeking connection, but it ends up feeling never fulfilled because of the medium through which you're seeking.
[00:39:55] Emily: Yeah, completely. I love what you said, Aaron, where you said, I'm seeking validation and that's okay. Going at it with this incredible kindness and gentleness and love for yourself and just going, yeah, I'm a human. I'm a pack animal. , I want to connect with people. And I, I often think now about the idea of bids for connection, which is something we talk, about a little bit in attachment theory or, about how sometimes,
even when people are on social media and they're arguing or they're disagreeing or they're being combative, those are still bids for.
[00:40:32] Michaela: Oh,
[00:40:32] Emily: just trying to connect with other humans, , and it's so, it's so interesting.
It's helped me actually take a little bit of a step back from moments like that and just going like, I understand that I'm bidding for connection and I'm wanting to find community. and I also, am asking myself the question, okay, I have a certain amount of energy in a day,
so what do I wanna spend it on today?
And I've tried to be a little more gentle with myself too, and being like, it's okay for me to be on Instagram just like scrolling and shit in downtimes. I recognize that sometimes I just wanna like take a, into a break and check out and also like digest stuff that's going on.
And I've started to notice when I feel it in my body, churning me up and getting me like wired and I'm like, Okay, interesting. Do I want do I want this anymore? Am I good now?
[00:41:22] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.it's like a sugar rush. Even when it's churning you up in a positive way, cuz maybe you posted something or have good news or whatever and you're getting positive feedback. Or even
if I'll feel it, if I share something vulnerable and I start reading people's responses and I start getting excited by the connection, I still have to check myself and be like, drink some
[00:41:43] Emily: Yeah. Yes, I get so sucked in and I feel the adrenaline of
it. There's a lot of adrenaline that goes through my body when I share something really vulnerable like that, and so it's just a really interesting thing. We use social media. It is a tool for connecting with people who, listen to our music, who buy our records, who are part of our lives.
Right. And Erin, for you, you're a producer as well, and you're sharing things because it helps you get clients. it helps people come in and, and see what's your studio like? What's your process like, what's it like to hang out with you? And so it's this tool, but like anything human, it's got such a powerful ability to connect us and such a powerful ability to divide us.
It's got that equal shadow and light. And it's just fucking intense. Sometimes
[00:42:38] Aaron: Yeah, it really is. And I want to give you credit for, sharing about your divorce the way you did because you were fully in your integrity, with yourself, and then when you did share your, fully yourself with, your fans and the people that follow you on social media, but you did it in such an intentional way.
And I think that is something that we can all take away on. Like our approach to social media is a, be real, but then be real when it's right for you and have it be a very controlled
[00:43:08] Emily: yeah,
[00:43:09] Aaron: to preserve yourself Yeah.
[00:43:12] Emily: my God, thank, thank you for saying that. That is something that really shifted for me this past couple years is going, oh, nobody deserves access to me or to you, or to you.
[00:43:25] Michaela: Oh my gosh. Yeah.
[00:43:26] Emily: Nobody deserves access. It's a privilege for them to experience like your life and your music and your, personality on social media.
And so it is all about that integrity of the centeredness of taking care of myself and deciding what those boundaries are and they can change, my life got way fucking harder and more complicated and so did yours And so I was like, oh, okay. This boundary was one thing like three or four years ago and now it's different
I really do think it's all about integrity. And I also think it's about finding these places of where does it spark a little bit of joy and where is it fun? And knowing that you don't have to be good at all of the things If I were to give like a younger musician advice, I'd be like, what platform do you like the best?
And like, pick one. , where does it feel the best to share? What do you like to share? And just share that shit. And don't worry about the other stuff I am not into TikTok. I'm just not. And some people are so great and funny and I'm like, I'm like, I do not have the bandwidth to create fucking content for another platform.
Are
you kidding me? Absolutely not. I'm a songwriter.
I have to write fucking songs. This is my job and I can barely do that.
[00:44:39] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. without writing songs, there is nothing else. Yeah. That is the foundation of everything else going on in in both of your careers. Yeah. In my career, if people,stop writing songs, I don't have a career
[00:44:50] Michaela: anymore. Yeah. And I spend way more time on social media than I do creating songs these days,
[00:44:55] Emily: Me too. Me too. I mean, let's just be honest. Like I don't spend enough time writing. I should be writing more, but also I've just kind of gotten rid of the should and been like, all right, well, let's just be a little gentler with yourself and what do you, because writing is hard. it's
hard. It's not fun. I like do everything I can to avoid it and and I'm glad when I do it, but like, damn , it's so much easier to do the other things in the career, you know?
[00:45:21] Michaela: for sure.
because this podcast is really about, sharing this for our community, we want it to be for other musicians.
you could share something that you feel like has been really valuable to you, evolving and growing to have a healthier relationship to yourself as a creator,
what
would it be?
[00:45:39] Emily: the thing that just instinctively comes to me is this, it's building relationships so that we aren't creating this idea in our minds of who other musicians are and who our peers are, which leads to isolation, it leads to resentment and, and sort of competition where there doesn't need to be.
It would be finding the spaces in which you feel like, oh, we're all in this together because that is the only way we continue to flourish as artists and writers and truth tellers and as humans together. And so I think that the music industry benefits from our sense of competition and scarcity.
[00:46:19] Michaela: mm-hmm.
[00:46:20] Emily: Um, because there's this idea or there's this a belief that many of us accept, especially as younger artists, that there's always somebody right behind you willing to take that lower fee for the gig you know, and so that you have to say yes to things that are invalidating to your time and your talents and your energy.
And I, I really think it's about, it's about coming together as a community.
And that creates a different kind of abundance. It creates, connection and mutual support.
And I think that is the most important thing that we could have right now, in this world. I think it builds the most resilience. It helps us be healthy, it helps us be vulnerable. It helps us be human. It makes us more loving towards ourselves and each other, and it is, it's the number one thing.
yeah,
[00:47:05] Aaron: absolutely. you mentioned that, Instagram is your, platform of choice. Do you want to share with people where, if they want to connect with you more,
I would assume it's Instagram or
[00:47:14] Emily: Yeah, it's at Emily Scott Robinson on Instagram. Don't find me on Twitter cuz Twitter is like a, a post-apocalyptic hellscape right now.
So , you can find me there, but I don't suggest it. And you know, one thing I really like actually at this level of my career is that I can still respond to dms from fans.
this is something I really like about Instagram is people send me a message and they're like, I just found your music and I love it so much and I live in Vermont and are you ever coming here? I wanna see you. And I still have the bandwidth at this point in my career, I can still connect person in person and I really love that.
So, if you wanna connect with me on Instagram, sometimes when I'm out on tour I don't have as much time to respond, but I really like to just connect with people directly on there.
[00:47:58] Aaron: that's beautiful. Well, thank you for spending your morning with
[00:48:01] Michaela: us.
Yeah, thank you
[00:48:02] Emily: so
[00:48:03] Michaela: We love you too.