This is a special group episode - Caroline Spence, Erin Rae, Kelsey Waldon & Michaela Anne are all acclaimed singer-songwriters having individually played everywhere from The Grand Ol' Opry to Carnegie Hall to Bonnaroo and all over the world. Though they perform independently, they are in constant contact via a long-lasting (5+ year) text thread - forming a tight-knit community which is the basis for our conversation today on how that impacts their their mindsets, their creativity, their mental health and decision making, and just about every other facet of their career.
This is a special group episode - Caroline Spence, Erin Rae, Kelsey Waldon & Michaela Anne are all acclaimed singer-songwriters having individually played everywhere from The Grand Ol' Opry to Carnegie Hall to Bonnaroo and all over the world. Though they perform independently, they are in constant contact via a long-lasting (5+ year) text thread - forming a tight-knit community which is the basis for our conversation today on how that impacts their their mindsets, their creativity, their mental health and decision making, and just about every other facet of their career.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
[00:00:04] Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, if you are returning listener, thank you for coming back if you're brand new. Thank you for checking us out.
[00:00:11] Aaron: We know there are thousands of podcasts out there, so thank you so much for being here.
If you are a returning listener and you haven't had a chance yet, please take 10 seconds and rate us on your listening platform of choice. we pride ourselves on being from our community, for our community, and one of the best ways for podcasts to get in front of new listeners is through ratings.
And the more ratings we get, the more listeners we get, the more listeners we get, the more guests we get, and the more guests we get, the more. Ideas we can share with our community. So if you haven't yet, please take 10 seconds and do that. It's really quick and easy, and we'd really appreciate that.
[00:00:40] Michaela: We're not your typical music promo show. We like to talk to artists in the off times, the times between promotional album cycles and tours. We like to get into the nitty gritty of the tools and routines that they've found helpful along the way to stay inspired, stay creative, and stay sane while building a career around their art
[00:01:00] Aaron: and with so much that is outside of our control in the music industry, we wanted to focus on what is within our control. And so with that in mind, we decided to invite some of our friends and some of our favorite artists on to ask them the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And today's episode is a special one. Sorry. Oh, that's, that's funny. As we get interrupted in the intro by the group text, this is a group episode lovingly titled the group text that is Michaela as a guest and not a host. Features. Caroline Spence, Kelsey Walden and Erin Rae, all four of which are, solo singer songwriters in the Americana scene.
All here in Nashville. They're all dear friends of ours. and they've had a text thread for the past, like five years. And before you skip on, This touches at the core of what our show is. And then it is about, navigating the ups and downs, the peaks and valleys of this business, and building a career around your art.
And if you have listened to past episodes, you know that one of the most common things that people bring up is community. And so we wanted to dive in and just have a community in its whole on this show together. And we did All right. I think.
[00:02:16] Michaela: Yeah. As a person that is part of the group text. I feel like we really showed up and shared A big part of our group text is that it is a vault and it's very sacred and protected and, we try to make sure that it's clear that it's all safe and confidential. That said, I feel like we shared quite a bit today and just the nature of sustaining a friendship and. Erin did a great job of asking some really great questions of competition and envy, and yes, my phone is buzzing because the group text is literally texting right now, so, it's pretty incessant, but yeah.
What it is for four women coming up in a business that is notorious for not being. Incredibly welcoming to every woman and trying to breed this culture that there's only space for one, for four women who are working in the same field and really consciously and actively choosing to support each other.
And we cover all what that means, what we do for each other, if we ever get competitive or envious. I think it was a great conversation.
[00:03:20] Aaron: Yeah, it was great to be witness to the conversation and at the very end we even get to see kind of some inner workings in person of how the group text works. Michaela brings up a little I guess it could be called an insecurity at the end, and immediately everybody jumps in on it and it just floats on by.
I think we have to. Go on record as saying that this is a little more than just like your normal group text thread with your friends. Yes, they're all in the same industry, but it is a very individualistic industry. And so to have the connection that these women have in this outlet that they have is a very special, almost lucky thing, that takes some intentional action on everybody's parts.
But they shared a lot of really great insights on. How to maybe create this community for yourself if you do not have it currently. and if you do have a community, talking about the importance of having a sounding block of friends and peers, and maybe not necessarily just your team, who are people that you're paying, one of my favorite benefits that they shared was the idea that struggling is not failing, which is amazing.
That's gonna ring in my head for a while. With that, I think you've heard enough from me. Here is our episode with Michaela Ann, Caroline Spence, Kelsey Walden, and Erin Ray affectionately called the group text.
[00:04:34] Michaela: Hi guys.
[00:04:35] Erin: Hi. Um, Moment of silence for Caroline's pretty blue dress or shirt
[00:04:40] Aaron and Michaela Video: yeah.
[00:04:41] Caroline: thank you guys. I put on perfume. I don't know why, but that's how
[00:04:45] Erin: I put on.
[00:04:46] Caroline: you. I put on
[00:04:47] Erin: I almost put on perfume, I did
[00:04:49] Aaron and Michaela Video: podcast.
[00:04:49] Erin: my face
[00:04:50] Caroline: Michaela, I can't explain it. That's how excited I was to talk to you guys. I felt like I was going somewhere and I just wanted to be fresh for my girls. So
[00:04:59] Michaela: You are coming off of some isolation.
[00:05:01] Caroline: yeah, I am coming off some isolation. So
[00:05:05] Aaron: Amazing. The more that we do this, the more I show up like a TV anchor where like I'm probably just wearing, running shorts, underwear from the bottom down and but above looks really presentable.
[00:05:16] Michaela: we talked to Alice Gerard yesterday and Erin was wearing running shorts.
[00:05:19] Aaron: But I was wearing a nice shirt, so it looked good. Thank you all for being here. Thanks for carving out time in your morning. This is a little bit of an experiment I had mentioned before we started recording it. We have never had the Brady Bunch Squares on here. As we've talked, we've had bands on the other side, like the milk carton kids or shovels and rope and all of that, but they're all on one camera.
So thanks for jumping in on this little experiment of ours. Also with having Michaela as a guest, rather than one of the hosts.
so like we had mentioned like, you guys know we like to focus on what people do to stay sane and stay creative and stay inspired, and basically just navigate the crazy idea of building a career around your art.
And one topic that comes up probably more than any other is community. So the four of y'all were something that came to mind probably before we even started recording episodes because, you guys are a pretty amazing community. And we're all pretty close. So
like we all know the history of this, but for the people that are listening, I wondered if y'all would just talk about how this came to be, a text thread is not like new, it's not unique. So how did this one come about and why has it been running for like five years?
and like thousands of gigabytes of data and photos and videos?
[00:06:28] Caroline: So much data.
[00:06:29] Erin: At least since 2019.
[00:06:31] Caroline: Yeah, I don't remember. I've known each of y'all for so long. Does anyone remember?
[00:06:37] Aaron and Michaela Video: I remember
[00:06:38] Kelsey: Okay.
[00:06:39] Caroline: do. Of course you do.
[00:06:41] Aaron and Michaela Video: the,
[00:06:41] Aaron: The historian,
[00:06:42] Erin: we got together for lunch or we were trying to get together for before tour. Were we going to Marshay?
[00:06:48] Caroline: Yes. Oh, wait, it was in the Marshay.
[00:06:51] Michaela: the first time. probably remember what everyone was wearing too. No, I don't. But we went to Dozen
[00:06:56] Erin: Oh yeah.
[00:06:58] Michaela: the very first time we went to Marshay,
right before I was leaving on tour, and I'm sure everybody else
[00:07:05] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:07:05] Erin: was going to Europe.
[00:07:06] Michaela: Oh, yeah, that was in like February of 2020. was Marshay, but the very first time was 2019.
We went to Dozen and we ended up, and it was so casual and I think we invited other people too, and it just ended up that the four of us were the ones that made it.
[00:07:21] Kelsey: You're right.
[00:07:22] Michaela: And we stayed. We stayed until like 2:00 PM or something.
[00:07:27] Erin: Yeah, just Hashing. Hashing
it out. Talking about closing it down.
2:00 PM
[00:07:35] Aaron and Michaela Video: and
[00:07:36] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:07:36] Erin: but
[00:07:37] Aaron: And then it just kept rolling from there
[00:07:39] Erin: yes, it, I think
[00:07:40] Michaela: stop texting.
[00:07:42] Erin: yeah. it was like, we probably were going on a tour shortly after that, most of us, and then maybe at the merge table or like some run-in with a promoter or something. We were like, Hey girls,
[00:07:55] Caroline: I got some tea.
[00:07:56] Erin: y'all hate when this happens. Yeah,
[00:07:59] Aaron: that's like kind of the one thing that I really wanted to hear, from you guys is that aspect right there that like you guys all have bands, but none of you guys are in bands. You guys are all basically solo artists. You all perform under your name and you hire a band.
I know that you guys have various people that you have played with for years and you have a consistent band, but it's not like, oh, you don't have a band name, you don't share responsibilities with anybody. I see you Aaron.
[00:08:25] Erin: I'm pointing at Kelsey, which y'all don't know where she is on my screen,
[00:08:28] Aaron: oh
yeah,
[00:08:29] Erin: says the hot van. Dude. We have the hot van.
[00:08:32] Aaron: Predominantly like what you guys do is a very lonely thing. You might have your agent or your manager and all of that, but like, it is you, that is the front person, the person, the band. what is the impact of having this community around you, specifically like the four of y'all
[00:08:48] Caroline: Think
[00:08:48] Aaron: dishing about what dudes say at the merch table.
[00:08:51] Caroline: It's keeps you from feeling like you're going crazy in these moments when like you're the sole person responsible for things and something's not clicking or people aren't understanding. And I can go to these girls and be like, this is the situation I'm in.
Everyone's acting a fool. Is it me or is it just cuz this job is hard? And you guys have for the reasons that Erin just said you guys know. What it's like to do what I do better than anybody else. And so I trust you guys more than like, I love my team, but like I trust you guys in a way that it almost feels you guys are like an advocate for me in my role on my team.
So that's a priceless resource to have when you do this very isolating job.
[00:09:38] Kelsey: Yeah, I mean, I just think, We each have a unique perspective, uh, doing what we do. So a beautiful, safe place to vent and be encouraged and even be challenged and be loved and be supported. And uh, you know, it's you can drop whatever in the group text and you know, we're not gonna.
Release it to anybody. All the secrets. So, um, just especially having a group of girlfriends and that are peers and artists, it's just been a lot cuz it's like we just have an experience that not even, some of our band members have,
[00:10:12] Erin: The thing that's so valuable about like you said, we love our teams and those can be places we go in confidence to share things. But as far as like the emotional side of it I think some people's relationships with their managers are open in that way.
And I know I can always share what I need to with mine, but there's no risk really involved in like sharing with y'all, other than just being vulnerable, which is a safe space like Kelsey said. And also I think one thing that's been so helpful, to realize.
It is that the experience is so different from that of a band member. Cuz it's like this thing of wanting to navigate, keep the vibe good on the road, take care of people as best you can, but also you're like representing yourself and your team and for me, I'm, I can get very overwhelmed emotionally just thinking about how other people feel in my band, always.
so helpful to have this place to come and also to have partners to members of the group techs that do play, as side people or band members and have that perspective, be able to be tapped as well.
[00:11:20] Aaron and Michaela Video: you talking about him?
[00:11:21] Erin: Yeah, I'm
[00:11:21] Caroline: We love, We love Erin. In the group
[00:11:23] Kelsey: Yeah, I,
[00:11:24] Caroline: we usually agree with Erin.
[00:11:26] Erin: I was being silly.
[00:11:28] Aaron: yeah.
[00:11:29] Kelsey: you made a great point, Erin. It's you're not taking a risk when you, put anything in the safe place that is the group text. It's just having that, community to bounce off of and also gain perspective is just, it's just been really great.
[00:11:42] Michaela: Yeah.
I think also what's developed over the years of having this group text and. The trust that has built that, like Kelsey you said, also challenged. I feel like one of the greatest things is that we support each other, and like really encourage each other and give each other insight.
and I think this is pretty incredible because text can be so hard with nuance and we've had times where we have to clarify and stuff, but we do also try and help give each other perspective and say like, maybe think about this differently or try it this way. And I feel like that's a really invaluable aspect of our friendship.
It's not just blind support. no matter what we're always right. we try and really help each other grow as well.
[00:12:25] Kelsey: Yeah.
[00:12:26] Aaron: you guys all had glow reviews and of the benefits that happen here, I'm wondering Have you noticed it impact, the way that you operate, in your career, in your business as a writer, just knowing that this group is there, like knowing that you have this safe space and you have this sounding board, has it changed the way that you operate,
[00:12:45] Caroline: I'm not sure if this fully answers your question, but What it made me think of is recent times in my career where I was like dealing with a lot of challenges on the business side and really it was pulling at all parts of me and my heartstrings, but that was all stuff I'd shared within the group text and got this perspective and advice and accountability that we just spoke of that made me go back into my business with the clear realization that even though this looks good on paper, even though from the outside, this is what I should want, I am comfortable saying no or getting out of this situation because I fully trust that this doesn't align with my values and I'm not being valued.
And I think without this support system and these trusted perspectives who have been with me through so many different trials, I don't think I'd be able to operate. In my business in this new way, which is really advocating for myself, my sanity, my creativity over, whatever the fancy stuff is.
So personally that I think will change how I do my business going forward because there's just been some things I've unlearned by listening to you guys tell me I'm okay,
[00:14:04] Erin: yeah, one thing that came up while you were talking this group text has been such a container for like a lot of change to occur within each of our careers, and obviously the pandemic, but how we view. What we're doing or the varying levels of when you're feeling really good about things or when it's time to like ramp up for a new record cycle. it's just been so cool to like get to see each other's process in that and also be mirrored back when I'm sharing about my process. I have had, you know, in the last year or so, just a pivot point in my career where I'm like deciding how I wanna keep moving forward.
And it's been so helpful just share honestly about that and be received. And it's scary to let go of my previous ideals of what I thought I started this for and why, Not to go down too far of a rabbit hole, but just to give some like context For the kind of changes I'm talking about.
and it's been one of my favorite things to get to witness, the beautiful path that each of y'all have and validate each other's worth, like inherent worth as creative people outside of on paper things, And celebrate the on paper things when they happen and feel right
[00:15:11] Kelsey: For sure. I think we all have different but complimenting personalities too, you know, when it comes to like celebrating our things and I feel like I can be pretty intense sometimes on my, on my, uh, my pep talks and my uh, whatever makes me excited, especially on loads of coffee.
[00:15:29] Aaron and Michaela Video: We love it.
[00:15:30] Aaron: I also feel like that's really important. I noticed just across the board wins are celebrated on social media cuz that's what you do. That's like part of, promoting to your fans and all of that.
But in person, I hear a lot of people step back on like celebrating wins because they're worried about, coming off as conceited or narcissistic or anything like that. So I think it's, celebrating wins in a community of trusted people is a really important thing and a really valuable asset.
[00:15:56] Michaela: Yeah, and I think What.
gives me more confidence in my business is that like we've seen each other through a lot of changes of losing managers or agents and witnessing each other. Like Wait out those times of really like unsure, footing and then start new relationships.
So every time I'm in that situation, I'm able to kind of remember like, oh, I am lucky and enough to have the intimate witnessing of. Friends careers whose art and work I really respect. And then I also get like an inside view that we don't share with everybody out there. like, oh, remember when Kelsey or Caroline or Erin Ray, like they were so stressed about this and then look how great it turned out and they waited and it just gives me a lot of confidence.
And then I also have the benefit of you guys reminding me of those things and Pep talking to each other and being like, this sucks. And also validating. All of the feelings. Like yesterday, the European festivals that we're literally flying out for in a few days saw on Instagram that they were canceled.
And my first text was to my manager then to Aaron saying what the actual fuck. And then it was to you guys
I texted you guys all day about it,
like
[00:17:15] Caroline: Yeah. And one thing I love is that I feel like we will say things to each other. It's not like we're pep talking all the time. Like we were like, Michaela, that sucks. The way you're feeling right now is valid. it's not the end of the world. But gosh, it sure probably feels like it. honestly those moments of just being heard and met where you are and having this like safe place to go to, to just say like, today was hard.
And have people to use. The word that Erin keeps using receive it is so, I mean, I don't wanna speak for you with what happened yesterday, but in those situations for me has been so nice to have that you guys aren't trying to make me think about like sunshine and roses on days that aren't like that.
The hard times and the good times get the same sort of understanding response and I so appreciate that.
[00:17:58] Michaela:
We've gone through different times where we've been more practiced in it, but where we say let's each share five things that we're grateful for. We had like a stretch where we were doing that almost daily. And then now, now I feel like,
[00:18:10] Caroline: Yeah,
[00:18:11] Michaela: yeah, that was
[00:18:12] Caroline: we needed it.
[00:18:13] Erin: Yeah.
[00:18:14] Michaela: But we don't only talk about careers. I think that's an important thing too, is that we are so supportive of each other's careers, but we also talk about everything else. I don't think about this on a regular basis, but thinking about this conversation, I'm like we don't see each other in person that much, but we are in constant contact on text.
And over the past four or five years, we've seen each other through. Some insane life experiences That's a large aspect of our friendship and not just, talking through the highs and lows of being artists.
[00:18:48] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:18:49] Kelsey: I mean, I think we're just there to talk about what anybody needs to talk about,
[00:18:53] Erin: Yeah, and it helps feed in, it gives a full picture so that when stuff does come up with career We have a more total view of each other to be like, okay, like I can imagine this fear is coming up for you because of this,
[00:19:08] Caroline: the reminder of you have this thing going on in your personal life and isn't that so valuable? And maybe we, this is a time when you focus on that part of who you are and not worry about the business and like advocating for your friend to be their whole self,
[00:19:23] Aaron: yeah, that's so important. Aaron, you mentioned the word container and I think that's so telling of what this is, it's a, I guess another word for a safe space, but it really is a container and it takes a lot of effort and a lot of trust to create a container in a space like this.
And the fact that it's happened pretty much exclusively via text is pretty amazing to me. Is this, something that you guys all individually came to, how unique is this for each of you?
[00:19:49] Erin: I don't have another group text. Around business stuff that has, incorporates that I'm part of like recovery community, there's like several group techs that get created all the time that I'm like really not as engaged with. Like, I'll check in sometimes, but it's much less personal cuz the, it's more about like sharing information and, So I feel like at least I was primed for feeling fairly comfortable sharing in this setting.
[00:20:16] Aaron: Yeah, that's what I was getting at is did it take, specific effort to really be vulnerable and open up? Especially about, talking about business can be really taboo, business struggles.
There can be a lot of shame around that. There can be a lot of, ego around that. And I'm wondering if you guys had situations in the past where you had outlets to share that on, like a peer-to-peer level rather than with your team.
[00:20:38] Kelsey: No, I don't think, Yeah.
[00:20:40] Erin: think individually,
[00:20:41] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:20:42] Kelsey: Definitely individually for sure. Caroline and I have a separate garden group
[00:20:46] Caroline: Yes we do. It's us and
[00:20:48] Kelsey: Uh,
[00:20:49] Erin: Wow.
[00:20:50] Caroline: Sorry guys.
Well
[00:20:51] Michaela: Did you know about this Aaron
[00:20:53] Aaron and Michaela Video: Ray?
[00:20:54] Caroline: it's just so we don't overwhelm you guys
[00:20:56] Kelsey: we didn't wanna overwhelm the group
[00:20:58] Erin: sorry, I have to take a call.
[00:20:59] Caroline: But yeah, it's really out of respect for y'all that Kelsey and I have this side group text, because you don't wanna, I'm like, not gonna be texting all y'all my green beans every day, but I can text
[00:21:10] Michaela: I mean, Maybe we really wanna
[00:21:11] Caroline: sometimes. I we update Kelsey, what you say? We send the good ones. We send the good
[00:21:16] Kelsey: We've said the good one. You see sometimes, you know, I said something and it's like silent, and I'm like, okay, no one cares.
[00:21:24] Caroline: but I care. I always care.
[00:21:26] Kelsey: Yeah.
and I mean, I probably talk to Erin every day, but, I have team group texts and stuff, but I mean, as far as something that's just completely engaged as we are I feel like yeah, it's definitely the only one.
Besides I probably have some like family ones that are like silent or something,
[00:21:41] Caroline: Yeah, I have a group text
[00:21:43] Kelsey: not checking in.
[00:21:44] Caroline: like college friends. That's where we keep up and post updates. and y'all know this it's just really hard to explain what we do and I can't get into the nitty gritty of they'll see what I post on social media because social media is a whole different thing.
I think we forget that's Part of your career? like, that's not me as a person, that's not my whole story. But for people that I don't see all the time, I think it's easy to think that's the full story. And I can't with them be like, actually on that day that I got this really good news that I posted about this other really shitty thing happened.
But like with you guys, I don't have to like explain it. those group texts are more balancing on a personal level. Like I love hearing and just, it's a nice place to like touch base and keep up. But as far as like my day to day life, you guys, Tyler and my therapist.
That's about it.
[00:22:33] Kelsey: Hey.
[00:22:35] Aaron: Well, we've been really strong on the benefits of this, and it's obviously very apparent. I think if it wasn't a beneficial to everybody, it wouldn't exist for as long as it has. If I'm remembering correctly, this group text started at the same time that all of you guys signed record deals.
Oh yeah, I know some have lapsed, but pretty much, as an observer, you guys all signed record deals at the same time as this was starting up. And there was like very transformative years in all of your careers. And I can imagine that having this community was really great as a sounding board, as a check on like, am I crazy?
reminding each other that you are human beyond your career and your artist persona, which is invaluable and are the things that we hear from tons of guests on this show. And it's really nice to hear it in person from all of you. But competition and competitiveness is massive in this industry and it's pretty widespread. Do you guys feel that between the four of you, do you get competitive? Do you get jealous? Do you get resentful? did we really just step into the Garden of Eden and it's only roses and totally fine every
[00:23:39] Caroline: I think all those things are natural feelings to have, but they can be a response. And frankly, they're like a learned response from the culture that we've spent our young life in. But they're not it, and what I've learned about any times I've felt those feelings towards anybody is I, think, what does that say about me?
What do I want? And why am I having that response? What am I not getting today? What do I actually feel? That's been my experience with those feelings within this group and without this group. And it's just not, energy worth spending. I think we all agree and also ultimately we're rooting for each other, full stop.
And I think that is an active choice that more people in this industry should make. I think especially between women, whether the industry wants to admit it or not, there's still acting like there's only so many seats at the table. And I think the more women are actively like, no, the better it's gonna be.
[00:24:36] Michaela: I think we've had really honest conversations About envy of, the shame around feeling like, oh, I feel a little bit envious of this person or whatever is going on, not within each other.
And I think we've all really talked about that's just such a natural feeling of oh, I see what somebody has and I want that and I feel jealous. And instead of shaming ourself for it, saying, that's okay. And then we do with it . And I just, I remember maybe it was a couple years ago having a conversation about all this stuff on the group text and also like recognizing we plan to be friends and we plan to be.
As of right now, professional working artists for the rest of our lives, and that's gonna look different for each of us. And that can feel, I think, challenging at times to remember everybody's going like this at different paces, at different dips and highs. But I feel like we've talked about that a lot and really helped each other when, there's been different moments where one of us might be feeling like we're kicking ass and the other one's like Jesus Christ can shake it any harder.
And that's just what life is. And I also remember having a conversation about like when I've expressed fears about becoming a mother and not feeling like I'm able to do as much. And then what that means for our group dynamic of what if I'm not on tour as much and then I'm not able to relate.
And I feel like we've had all these conversations of that's okay cuz this life is long and that's maybe just this year next year It's gonna be different.
[00:26:08] Kelsey: It's totally okay. Yeah. And I I feel like we've all had our own, growth and journey with those feelings even separately, from the group tech. So, um, mean, I totally agree with Caroline. I've never felt that, No.
And none of that competitiveness, within the group text?
No. like y'all just said, I think we've, anytime we've all felt that way, it's just the same thing. It's feel like those feelings are validated, but it's like we also kind of, you know, have to get there in our journey ourselves and realize we all have a seat, you know, at the table.
There's room for all of us. And I know I've personally come, I very long way, with the journey myself. So yeah. I wish there was more of, uh, especially for women because it's
I don't know, it just seems really stupid
[00:26:50] Aaron and Michaela Video: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:50] Erin: Yeah. Yes.
[00:26:52] Kelsey: seriously.
I mean at this point I'm just like, I see people acting like that. I'm just like, I see you. I remember you, I know how you feel, but like it's not worth it.
[00:27:02] Aaron: Yeah. It's one thing to say it. and it's another thing to act it, in my experience, saying like, oh, yeah there's, plenty of seats at the table for everybody is Just like a duh kind of statement. But then when it comes into practice, it seems like people's actions don't meet up with their words there.
[00:27:17] Michaela: well, and I
[00:27:18] Erin: I, uh,
[00:27:19] Michaela: that oh, maybe I feel threatened or jealous, and then like, where is that coming from? Like Caroline said, like a learned reaction of oh, because I have grown up in this. Culture that tells us and continues to tell us. this weekend I heard from someone, I don't like female artists, and you know, I remember one of the first booking agents I ever tried to get, the email response was, you sound great, but we already have enough female artists on our roster.
Like, we've all
[00:27:46] Aaron: heard this or I loved your record, but I already wrote about this other female's
[00:27:49] Michaela: record last month. Oh yeah, I've,
[00:27:51] Erin: Oh yeah,
[00:27:51] Michaela: He's,
[00:27:52] Erin: I
[00:27:52] Michaela: a, yeah. So,
I think we, are part of a population of female artists that are like, we consciously have to undo this and say this is dumb. And yeah, maybe we have those feelings still at times.
And then it's what we do with it of wait, no, we hype each other. We have to because we're not gonna come from that belief system.
[00:28:14] Kelsey: Yeah. And hype yourself.
[00:28:16] Caroline: That's the Kelsey Walden energy that she brings to the group text. She's like, go
[00:28:20] Erin: Yes.
[00:28:21] Caroline: ladies.
[00:28:22] Kelsey: Well, I'm, here's the thing too, is that I am straight up competitive. it's where I've had to learn to like, put that energy, I don't think art is like a ballgame, You gotta love it,
[00:28:33] Aaron: how did you learn to, channel that competitiveness?
[00:28:36] Kelsey: I think just through a lot of healing and just, it's been. Quite a journey. I mean, just even like, it's been like over three years now. I stopped drinking, which was like a huge thing, which provided a lot of clarity. I'm not trying to make all this all about me.
I think my journey there and just like realizing where like I put certain, like where certain fears even come from for me and like where just everything is channeled. Crazy inner child shit. Just, starting from like the beginning that I hadn't dealt with yet.
like now it's just become more about me. It's like I'm still competitive, but it's like I just want to be, better than I was, but I don't feel competitive about other. Other people not so much anymore, and especially not in this group text.
I think there can be healthy, cuz that's one thing that makes me tick,
[00:29:21] Erin: drive and a motivation. Yeah.
[00:29:23] Kelsey: You just have to let It, not become, a dark drive.
[00:29:27] Aaron: Yeah, that's a soapbox that I'll stand on all day is you can definitely be competitive, but be competitive with yourself. Be competitive with the record that you put out. Last, be competitive with like how many songs you wrote last year.
[00:29:37] Erin: yeah, just go back. I have fortunately have not felt feelings. competition towards folks in this group, which has been really nice. But I have experienced those feelings come up, in the outside world. And, especially being in Nashville, that's such a normal part it's just an indicator of like what my feelings are or beliefs are about myself.
And then also the cultural influence
[00:30:00] Kelsey: to even sum it up, it's like the group text has just been, it's been validating, I think just to have a community that you talk to every day. cuz I mean, I talk to other peers too, they like aren't in the group text some of my like, really Best friends and we all panic, we all do the same things.
you know, And it's okay. I think just having that community to bounce all that off of has been really special.
[00:30:22] Caroline: it feels like there's this kind of unwritten rule cuz I obvious, we obviously have, lots of peers that do this and lots of close friends that do this. But it seems like over time we've created this. Place where, the unwritten rule is that like any time, any mood just fire it off and it'll be received.
Whereas even people that I'm close to that do this job, if I just randomly text them the shit I text y'all, they might be like, what? This is not the time, it's eight in the morning, but y'all are like, it's normal now. we've created this place that's a 24 7 chat room. And I appreciate that.
Cause I don't have to not that I don't think about what I send y'all, but I don't have that questioning of is this gonna be too much the same way I do with other peers. It's just this sort of blanket yep, this is what we do here and that's so
[00:31:09] Michaela: can come, come back and be like, okay, I was really hyped up. Sorry
[00:31:14] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:31:14] Michaela: Or like, or I was
[00:31:16] Kelsey: yeah, it's not small talk.
[00:31:17] Michaela: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
[00:31:18] Caroline: Not much. Small talk going on.
[00:31:20] Erin: the idea that there's a seat at the table for everybody, especially now that there are so many different pathways of course there's like a lot less structured kind of ideas of stability. Like, Oh, you get a label and then you publishing deal and then that's where you feel security and then you should be, if you're touring a lot then you're gonna be successful and whatever.
to me being in the Nashville community has been so cool for such a long time because of that idea of like, just like I'm carving out my space. y'all have your individual paths as I see them. And then sometimes we overlap and like collaborate on something but what we have is our own.
And as many different artists as there are, there's that many paths to a successful. life, which I think we all know that like success can look a thousand different ways, it's just like success about like inner peace and having a practice of creativity or whatever.
[00:32:14] Michaela: Well, and I think at this point we've all been in this long enough and like through our own experiences and then also witnessing each other's experiences, we are learning more than ever that those things that our younger selves thought were the markers of stability or success. Are not, Are not always, they're not always guarantees and they're not always the right thing.
we've all had different experiences where we've overlapped with different people in the industry and maybe it didn't, the relationship didn't work out for one of us, but it worked out for a different person for a time, but not forever. I just feel like with that experience and with the sharing, we've all just continually learned this stuff changes so much it's so up and down that it's just riding the wave and staying centered on.
what you do.
And I wanted to Go back to the competition I feel like one thing I've. Definitely felt like a competitive person. I feel a little like Aaron. knows more than anybody. Cuz he's witnessed me for 16 years, so I feel like he's gonna afterwards be like, you stayed quiet during that time,
[00:33:21] Aaron and Michaela Video: but
[00:33:23] Aaron: just here holding her accountable.
You know,
[00:33:26] Michaela: I've, always struggled with not just competition, but like fear of being left out, severe fear of being left out. And I feel like that's what feeds my competition or like feelings of envy but will I have a place too, which is From the whole cultural aspect of like, oh, there's only enough room for one or two, and I feel like I've talked through this with you guys and I know like Aaron Ray, you and I have definitely had these conversations tracing back, where these feelings stem from that transpire in our careers of like if I feel competitive or if I feel like, I'm not getting something, like how do I trace it back and oh, what I really want is to feel loved.
What I really want is to feel validated and am I seeking that in the wrong place? Am I seeking that by a record label signing me or selling enough tickets, with a moving number that is constantly increasing or having enough followers, which is a moving number that is constantly increasing, or should I be focusing that validation on. The love and connection I have with my partner and my friends with you guys in real life, not anywhere else, really trying to walk all of that stuff back has been very helpful to combat those habits of competition and envy.
[00:34:43] Kelsey: Yeah, The group text is good about keeping everybody in check on that too. It's just like, usually. Most times it's not actually reality,
It's like we make up these things in our head.
[00:34:53] Erin: The feelings are valid
[00:34:54] Kelsey: the feelings are valid, but
[00:34:56] Erin: the, yeah, there's like beliefs and thoughts from decades back driving the reaction I'm having to a certain situation. they say, if it's hysterical, it's historical.
[00:35:07] Michaela: Oh, I've never heard that before.
[00:35:09] Caroline: really good.
[00:35:10] Aaron: I like that.
[00:35:11] Kelsey: No, and everybody's journey is so different. It's gonna be different, everybody, even outside of this group text, it's just, we can't focus on things like that because it's gonna look different for so many people, you know, decades from now.
so it's just important what we have here is community.
[00:35:27] Aaron: the one thing that stood out for me in our conversation on competition is the acceptance and the normalization of being able to say, I feel envy or I feel jealous, or I feel competitive because you guys are all right. That is a very human feeling.
And say this in every four or five episodes, but like one of my favorite sayings is mold grows in darkness. And so if you just put it out in the light and you shine light on it, that's such a healing thing. And so that's a really powerful gift that you all have in this group is to be able to share that and just be heard and people be like, yeah.
I get it.
I get the envy, I get the jealousy. I can't help but think that you guys are lucky that this group formed. It doesn't seem like it was like a very.
[00:36:11] Kelsey: We are.
[00:36:12] Aaron: know if it would, it would.
[00:36:14] Caroline: I was like, who's gonna cry? Ora? I think it's me.
[00:36:19] Aaron and Michaela Video: It's
[00:36:20] Michaela: always Michaela, Caroline. Yeah.
[00:36:22] Aaron: What I was trying to say is I don't know if this, at least this dynamic would exist, if it started with the intent of having a space to be vulnerable and share. I think it sounds like it just started from a lunch and it just kind of evolved into this thing.
Do you think it's possible to create a group like this intentionally? I mean, obviously it is because of like the recovery world, and Kelsey
[00:36:47] Michaela: was about to say
[00:36:48] Aaron and Michaela Video: no. Yeah.
[00:36:49] Erin: She was about say no. I don't know. I think You can't control it for sure. But I feel like the intention of reaching out even if, it's one other peer or person that you're friends with and being like, can we talk shop? I would love to like, Confidentially share and pick your brain about stuff and it, not everybody has capacity for that or whatever, but,
[00:37:11] Aaron: it's ex exactly that. I notice it like being, a guy, guys like, do not talk about this stuff. they predominantly do not share vulnerabilities and they're not like
[00:37:20] Erin: Unless it's like conscious, like there's a space
[00:37:23] Aaron: men's group. Yeah, exactly. I'm I do a lot of work in that realm, and I'm a part of some groups that do that, but it's very rare.
I find it very powerful and very helpful. I've always struggled with shame and it's something that's like really helped. That is just showing up in a group and having to be like, yeah, this is totally normal. And the bit that I've been able to share, I'm lucky that, I'm in a men's group in Nashville, Tennessee, so I'm not the only person in the music business in the group.
And so I can share stuff and there's a guy in the group who's done much more in this industry than I have, and he's like, yeah, I hear you. I remember that. the power of normalizing that and the power of just being like, yeah, I see you, you're not insane is massive. But we're not on a text thread.
I mean, We have a text I to like figure out when the group is gonna meet, but That's it. It's very much like somebody will text and be like, this happened. And everybody's cool. Congrats.
[00:38:10] Aaron and Michaela Video: Silence
[00:38:11] Michaela: for, I do think there's some, there's something to create the dynamic that we have.
Because
like Caroline said, you three have known each other longer. I was came into the mix later. I haven't been in Nashville as long as you guys, everybody has their own separate individual friendships as well among this group and the dynamic of how, constant, we are in touch.
maybe a couple days will go without texting each other, but like I don't think a week has ever gone by that we haven't texted each other. And that I don't think that can be intentionally made. I think that's been just really organic and natural, and I'm thankful for it I've had multiple other group threads that have not lasted and I very specifically remember, when my mom had a stroke, I remember texting you guys and I remember specifically saying, please don't take me off the thread. Don't think that you're being respectful of me by like talking about all of the regular stuff you talk about. even if I don't answer, please just continue on normally.
So it makes me feel normal and I can just read even if I'm not responding. And I remember I had a couple other group threads at the time with different friends and said similar things and it just, didn't sustain. And I just will always remember you guys have always just kept that going. And you guys have always just. Sustained it, even if, I don't even text a response for days, but I can check in and read the like hundred text messages from you guys. And I found that so comforting. I didn't have the capacity to participate at the time, but like okay, they're still there.
[00:39:47] Caroline: Going back to Erin's question about how do you do it? the kids that are the kids, oh my God I'm, I'm basically a kid. Um, But I'm also 87 years old, um, kids these days, when we first were becoming friends, social media wasn't as important and so I feel like we had to go out and meet people organically and become community in that way.
And you weren't worried about taking pictures together or like looking cool, so people will wanna hang out with you. And I imagine that there's an extra layer of overcoming vulnerability with. Maybe the way things are prioritized these days, I just think that with the whole point of your podcast, we're just talking about how to do this sustainably.
The only way to do this sustainably is to have real relationships with other people that do this work and to have people that you trust that don't work for you. And so just stop trying to be cool and like your real self and not your artist self around your community and things like this will show up, But yeah, if I was a kid these days, I don't know what I would do.
[00:41:03] Kelsey: I never, when I first moved to Nashville, which I didn't move that far away, I mean over three hours was far enough for me. I'd never been to hardly any other state before I started touring so much. you know, I didn't, I didn't come carrying like a card that said Kelsey Walden, songwriter.
Like, I feel like we all made just real relationships, this shit's hard enough, so it's like surrounding yourself Including your team and I've, been so fortunate, but just surrounding yourself with people you trust and people you love.
Even your band, it's like, if this becomes not fun anymore, why in the hell are we doing it? cuz it's always gonna be hard, but I feel like in the, past couple years, you know, I've just really learned a lot about my past experiences and also just really consciously have tried to like, put healthy people just in my circle, including my friends and my band and everything. My team, because it's all like part of one,
Thing.
this community has been extremely important to me. And I was gonna go back to like, you know, when y'all were talking about even the competitive thing and, Erin, which you were talking about in your men's group, I think it is so important that we put stuff in the group text and it's validated just stuff that we don't judge, even if we just don't even think about it later and we're just like, huh.
Like I put it out there in the light. Cuz sometimes you say something, I dunno, it just gets easier for something to become a habit to not do that anymore. Especially when you talk about it, you're just kinda like, oh, that was dumb.
[00:42:28] Caroline: there's so many times I've been like I'm sharing this because I want you guys to hold me accountable. And sometimes it'll be sharing a good thing because I'm like, this good thing happened. I want to share this with you because I need you guys to like, remind me of this when I'm. Being a shithead, like, putting things out there and sharing of yourself so that someone can hold the mirror back up and be like, remember that thing?
That was really good that happened. I think you're forgetting about that moment because this got in the way.
[00:42:57] Kelsey: I do think we do that too. I know there's been a lot of things that we've had to air in the group text it's really important to also, just know that it's okay to also feel joy. It's okay to feel good about what we do.
[00:43:08] Erin: Be excited. Yeah.
[00:43:10] Kelsey: okay to be validated and that sometimes, you know, it sucks I think it's all those things at once,
so.
[00:43:16] Erin: Michaela, I just wanna say, I don't remember you coming to Nashville that much later than us. Like I feel like, yeah.
[00:43:24] Michaela: Maybe this, echoes my life. story of I'm the odd one out always.
[00:43:29] Caroline: year was
[00:43:29] Erin: I was like little group text mirror
[00:43:32] Aaron: We came in 2014. August
[00:43:35] Caroline: I have a really cute photo. I actually was, when I was looking at a photo to post for one of y'all's birthday, I have a cute photo of the three of y'all at the back table on the floor of Roberts. remember when the Americana Awards used to give us tickets?
[00:43:49] Aaron and Michaela Video: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:50] Caroline: Was after the award show, so it must have been like 2014.
And you guys are so cute. I'll send it to the group text after this, but I was like, oh my gosh, it really has been nearly 10 years, um, that I've known y'all,
[00:44:02] Michaela: I just thought you guys were all friends before I moved cuz I met you all like literally. The first few months that we
moved
[00:44:08] Erin: Five. I met you at the first show before you even moved
[00:44:11] Michaela: yeah. And you came up to me, Erin Ryan, and you said, you should meet my friend Kelsey. And I was like, Oh who's that?
And then somebody else was like, you should meet Kelsey Walden. And I was like, okay. And then Caroline, we came to a party at your house. I think that's like how, I met all of you guys pretty quick. I'm pretty
[00:44:29] Kelsey: lot of those parties.
[00:44:30] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:44:31] Erin: Party. Carolyn and I had met each other a couple times, but we weren't that close at that time
[00:44:36] Aaron and Michaela Video: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:37] Erin: Kelsey and I were, but still like it's grown
kind of since That time. Anyways, I just wanted to like, girl, you aren't the odd man out. Okay.
[00:44:45] Aaron: I love this. This is like, This is like the personification of what the group text is all the time, but on record
with
[00:44:52] Erin: to cut it out
[00:44:53] Aaron: No, it's dang
[00:44:54] Erin: too vulnerable.
[00:44:55] Aaron: The,
[00:44:55] Caroline: rooted in reality. But I honor you. I honor you.
[00:44:59] Michaela: I have very specifically thought about this because, you guys know cuz I am into therapy and always evaluating myself and I'm like, in every friend group I've had. I feel like the one person out and I feel like I'm the one person out with you.
guys because I'm the only non southern girl.
[00:45:14] Kelsey: Why do you do
this?
[00:45:15] Erin: You can find a re. We are always gonna
[00:45:17] Aaron and Michaela Video: I know.
[00:45:17] Erin: to
[00:45:18] Kelsey: Why do
[00:45:18] Aaron: you
[00:45:19] Kelsey: We don't feel that way.
[00:45:20] Aaron: can always find a reason
[00:45:23] Michaela: I was literally going through in my mind like, oh, my best friend group in college. Well, I was the only non Caribbean girl, my best friend group later in college. I was the only non-Jew Jewish girl. I'm like always putting like, how am I different from everybody?
I'm like, Oh
[00:45:38] Erin: It makes
[00:45:39] Michaela: thing in my head.
Mm-hmm.
[00:45:42] Erin: because You moved around so much. It makes so much sense Always joining an existing group, like existing. You never how much they actually were.
[00:45:50] Michaela: yeah.
[00:45:51] Erin: you were the connector.
[00:45:52] Michaela: this is fascinating though because I have deeply believed that you guys were all friends and then I came later.
[00:45:59] Caroline: No,
I knew Kelsey the longest and the best. I met Erin a few times and then I full on Facebook message Fangirled her when I heard Crazy Talk and I was like, I'm been crying to your song every night. This is the best thing I've ever heard. Bye. And
[00:46:14] Erin: was like, this girl seems great.
[00:46:15] Caroline: it's she's obsessed with me, but still one of my favorite songs in the fucking world.
and then like, we just knew each other, you, I feel like this whole thing has brought us all. Closer. At least that's my perspective.
[00:46:28] Michaela: Thank you Erin Ray for saying that this is a therapy breakthrough for me.
[00:46:33] Aaron: I think this is an amazing way to put a bow on the end of this episode because it's like we talked about the benefits, we talked about, like the struggles, we talked about the growth in it, and then you're like, oh, by the way, here's a little insight into what we just talk about all the time and how this works.
[00:46:47] Michaela: It's in and what we do, which is kindly being like Hey friend. Actually what if you think about it this way.
[00:46:54] Aaron: Yeah thank you all for taking the time. I'm so glad we've, after many false starts, finally got this all together. My gosh.
Yeah.
[00:47:00] Michaela: Our ch our child's sleeping, so I didn't cancel on you guys.
This Yeah.
[00:47:04] Erin: my gosh. I'm so happy for you.
[00:47:06] Aaron: Yeah. We, hope this makes sense to anybody that was listening and it wasn't just a bunch of laughter and talking over each other, cuz it was really fun to be a part of and fun to watch. So if the, yeah, if the audio didn't work, just check out the YouTube page and you can watch it and it'll totally
[00:47:21] Caroline: Yeah, I think this is a YouTube episode for sure.
[00:47:24] Michaela: I think people will find it very helpful, especially young artists who are starting out and trying to find their way and finding the community that will help them. But
[00:47:33] Aaron: also people that have been doing it for a long time and are solo artists, Maybe just kinda like, pretend you're standing on the edge of a cliff.
Count to three, hold your breath and reach out to somebody and be like, Hey, let's have a talk. Yeah. You're never too old to learn new tricks and I think we've shown the benefits of, being open and being vulnerable and just like owning your shit outwardly to other people.
[00:47:52] Michaela: it can feel really scary to be honest about your struggles in your career. Which again, is not wanting to just complain and dwell in that.
I think it's actually really empowering to be like, yeah, I love what I do and I'm doing this, but it's not all amazing all the time and this dynamic with you guys. It's such a constant, helpful reminder of that and that I don't need to put up a front and try and convince everyone that I'm really doing it or successful that I am doing it and I'm successful with all of the shit in it.
Cuz that's just a part of this
[00:48:27] Caroline: you can be struggling and not be failing. And at least that's the message that I've learned, is that if I'm having a hard time or I'm not doing anything, I must be failing. And you guys always remind me like, absolutely not. Here's what you are doing. Also, this is a part of it.
So
[00:48:44] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:48:45] Caroline: who.
[00:48:46] Erin: I feel like the other 22 hours it's like the gateway drug to having these conversations one-on-one with people, because we're getting such a varied perspective from each, from individual artists that We could easily just see on social media and be like, oh, they're announcing this festival there are new records out and blah, blah, blah.
And just getting to hear what's going on behind the scenes and the ups and downs. It's, and also nobody is sharing those things to just try and convey all positivity. It's just like part
[00:49:15] Michaela: have
[00:49:15] Erin: like, you know?
yeah. And also it of like part of the brand or whatever you're So
[00:49:21] Caroline: I've loved listening to it. It's made me feel better about stuff, so thanks
for
[00:49:25] Aaron and Michaela Video: I'll
[00:49:26] Michaela: Thank you. I just wanna add, sorry, last thing. Everybody needs some Kelsey isms in their life, which we didn't even get to cover on this, but we have so many things of you need hype friends we have like jokes of like that. Caroline was gonna cross Stitch Theisms
[00:49:41] Caroline: Oh my God. It was something like, don't you forget that you're that bitch. Or you're, I'm fucking Michaela Ann.
[00:49:48] Michaela: that was. That was at Marsh Marshay. When
I,
[00:49:51] Erin: Michaela.
[00:49:53] Michaela: I shared a fear and Kelsey went, Michaela and bitch.
[00:49:58] Caroline: named My last record. Kelsey Pep talk is like, why? My last record is called True North. That's a fucking Kelsey Walden. So
[00:50:05] Erin: can I say my favorite one sometimes you just gotta throw a hoe to the ground.
[00:50:10] Aaron and Michaela Video: oh yeah.
[00:50:11] Erin: what you said? But talking about being in the garden.
[00:50:13] Aaron and Michaela Video: Like a garden
[00:50:14] Michaela: home to, to get out of a bad mood.
[00:50:18] Caroline: Sometimes you
[00:50:19] Kelsey: y'all. I don't even, I don't even try. I'm really honest. I just feel like sometimes that it's needed you know, I'm just like, listen,
[00:50:28] Erin: Listen ladies.
[00:50:30] Kelsey: Yeah. that's, and also that's why it's beautiful maybe to even tie a bow on that. I think we all have, I think the dynamic is pretty beautiful. You know, we all bring our, thing to the group text and it's well appreciated and seen and validated so. I would be honored for Aism stitch,
[00:50:46] Caroline: You guys text me side, text me and we'll uh, I'll get stitching.
[00:50:50] Aaron and Michaela Video: Okay.
[00:50:51] Caroline: Christmas is around the corner.
[00:50:53] Michaela: Thank you guys so much and we love you a lot. And I'll share, I'll see you on the text thread in a minute.
[00:50:58] Erin: Love you.