Jim Sonefeld is best known as the drummer (and songwriter) for Hootie & the Blowflish, but he has also released a handful of solo records and written a memoir title 'Swimming with the Blowfish - Hootie, Healing, and One Hell of a Ride'. We talk with Jim about the start and rise of Hootie, how having the 10th best selling US record of all time impacted his writing and creativity, their fall from prominence and the addictions that followed, finding sobriety and reinvention, lessons learned throughout this roller coaster, and a whole lot more.
Jim Sonefeld is best known as the drummer (and songwriter) for Hootie & the Blowflish, but he has also released a handful of solo records and written a memoir title 'Swimming with the Blowfish - Hootie, Healing, and One Hell of a Ride'. We talk with Jim about the start and rise of Hootie, how having the 10th best selling US record of all time impacted his writing and creativity, their fall from prominence and the addictions that followed, finding sobriety and reinvention, lessons learned throughout this roller coaster, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss. And I'm your host, Michaela Anne, and we are in our second year of the podcast. So happy to still be here and thank you for being here with us.
[00:00:20] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, we are keenly aware that we wouldn't be able to have recorded and put out now 61 episodes of this show without you guys being here. And so with that, we have just a few asks before we drop into today's episode. We're trying to get the word out that streaming podcasts is much different than streaming with music.
We all know that music streaming pays next to nothing. Podcast streaming pays absolutely nothing. This is a complete labor of love. And so with that, we would love to. employ you guys as our community to help grow our community. And there are a few ways you can help with that. The most direct way is through our Patreon.
we offer the normal behind the scenes access, some exclusive content things advanced notice of who our guests will be so that you can have your questions answered directly by them, and a whole slew of other things to come. If you'd like to learn more about that, there is a link below in the show notes.
Another way is to just simply subscribe or follow the show on your listening platform of choice, And lastly, would be to just share your favorite episode, however you found out about the show. If a friend told you about it.
Tell another friend that has never heard our show. If you saw it on social media, please just share your favorite episode on social media. That brings more listeners our way and the more listeners we have, the more guests we can have to share great ideas back with you guys. And one thing we really pride ourselves with for this podcast is the fact that we're not alone.
journalists. We are musicians ourselves, so we feel that gives us a little different tone for our conversations where it's less of an interview and more of a conversation about the honest realities of building a lifelong career around your art, which is an absolutely insane thing to try to do,
But it is possible even though so much in this industry is outside of our control. So with that, we like to focus on what is within our control and that ends up being our mindsets and our headspace and our creativity in general.
And we've distilled that thinking down to a baseline question that is, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to ask that question of Jim Sonnefeld, who is best known as the drummer for Blowfish. He is also one of the main songwriters in the band.
He has a great solo career. He is an author, and he was just very open and honest in this conversation. But Jim has an incredible story that he's very willing to share of his rise to Insane heights of fame, money, success, and the demise of that, and what happened all in between substance abuse and addiction, recovery finding faith, and also how it all has affected his creativity, his songwriting, and going from a massive machine to Being somewhat DIY and still being in a machine because Blowfish is still going on tour.
Still selling out amphitheaters. So it was such an incredible conversation with someone who definitely is seeking answers for himself. from the get go you can tell that Jim is just very self aware, has a very Honest view of life and what we are doing and what this journey is and this journey being both in the music industry and as beings on this planet we don't want to keep you from that conversation.
So without further ado, here's our conversation with jim sonnefeld
We're doing well. How are you doing?
[00:03:42] Jim: I'm well enough, trying to avoid technology at all costs because it ends up stealing my joy because I'm, not technically gifted.
[00:03:50] Aaron & Michaela: the last probably five conversations we've had on here have all hit some kind of
[00:03:56] Jim: Not
[00:03:56] Aaron & Michaela: Where are you today?
[00:03:58] Jim: Columbia, South Carolina, where I have lived since I was age 18. And I live here with my wife, Laura, and it's empty because our five kids are attempting adult lives. So we're
pretty quiet around here. Yeah.
[00:04:13] Aaron & Michaela: How long have you guys had an empty house?
[00:04:16] Jim: for the better part of. A year and a half, two years.
[00:04:18] Aaron & Michaela: So getting your feet back under you, I guess,
[00:04:20] Jim: well, yeah, it's all new territories. always think of am I going back to a more peaceful life or am I getting back to a different, sanity that I previously had, but I never feel that I always feel like I'm just continually going into new territories. If I can bring some of my again, good principles into the new territories.
They all seem new because time is evolving. Technology evolves, your kids continue to evolve. So they're never technically the same. So it's always
new territory. And,
so we're just in another new territory and in. Two more years it'll, it'll be the same, another new territory.
don't get used to anything.
That's the advice from parent who's got older kids. It all changes, and the world changes, and y'all are still developing too, believe it or not, as wise and gifted as you are. They're still like learning to be done,
[00:05:13] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a saying I've heard for a long time, but I've really been able to feel it viscerally lately. And that's, the only constant is change. I grew up in Maine. And, the saying there is if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes.
And, especially now with a kid, I've just learned, it's the same thing. Just, you know, instead of five minutes, you just wait a month or two weeks or however, and it's just, it'll be completely different. right?
Which is weird, because I grew up a military kid, so I moved every other year my entire life change was so constant for me, and it is such a difficult thing for me to remember, and also like, be at peace with I'm constantly change while simultaneously anticipating can things hurry up and change?
It's like not a peaceful place
[00:05:56] Jim: As we continued, examination of ourselves and life I've found I am nothing but a host of massive contradictions. I'm confident over here, but I'm really not confident over in this area. I can be super honest over here, but I find myself, putting up a front over on this other side.
There's all these contradictions trying to figure out who we are through a lifetime. That's where I've landed. Get used to change examine the fact that you might have a lot of contradictions and they're okay. It doesn't mean you're false or anything like that. It just means I think certain ways very consistently about things and then in other ways I'm very different.
I don't know. Maybe that's just the human state that we have to live in.
[00:06:35] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely The word that comes to mind is like patience with yourself, which is something I feel like I still struggle with i'm not quite 40. I'm in my last year my 30s this year. So learning patience with myself, I feel like i'm at that cusp of like definitely in my 20s like that kind of like overconfidence.
Like I can do anything, all the time, everything. I can just do
[00:06:54] Jim: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:06:56] Aaron & Michaela: no, realizing now that things are, harder or, accepting things that I'm not good at, accepting what I cannot change and, leaning into what I can change, what I can accept and.
What is that? Is that the serenity prayer?
[00:07:09] Jim: Yeah, that is the prayer that has guided my at least last 12 to 15 years, because Everything I struggle with in a day, if I have a question and I come to a dramatic place, everything can run through that serenity prayer, whether you're praying to a God or a spirit of something, it is just to organize and say me the serenity to accept things I can't change or change the things that are mine to change and then the wisdom to be able to separate these Yeah, we get into so much trouble with Fighting things that are not our fight Trying to change things that we can never change or control things We can never control and then if we can't organize that in a separate category of What is my duty to change?
What is my responsibility to change? But all of life for me has gone through that. you know, I've been using a 12 step model for about 20 years in my life, and it was the most life changing thing I've been able to do because it showed me who I am. And then it gives you some tools to deal with disappointment, injustice, unfairness, by accepting certain things as truths.
And that prayer lines you right up to say it's either this or that rather,
whether you like it or not, you're either, you know, accept something cause you can't change it or be willing to change. If anything, just your attitude towards it. And man, that'sa pathway to peace right there.
[00:08:33] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah.
Yeah. I found it really helpful and I've never personally been through. a 12 step program. my parents have II. Remember going with them when they would go to those and I'd play on the playground kind of thing.
and I of course have a lot of friends that have done that but
[00:08:48] Jim: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:51] Aaron & Michaela: with me.
in that line, living life on life's terms
[00:08:54] Jim: Heh.
[00:08:55] Aaron & Michaela: know,
And another thing that comes from alcoholic version of the 12 step program being, one is too many and a thousand are not enough, which I've heard people relate to, drinks or whatever, but that to me can relate to so many different things where it's just again, accepting it's like, not for me. Yeah.
Career stuff. Life stuff. Anything exactly you're chasing can place an addiction on, lots of different avenues.
[00:09:16] Jim: the 12 step model was used and originated as a relief. For people who struggle to control their drinking, but it's been co opted by a lot of
and furthermore, it's just a design for living that's a little practical and organized. They've borrowed spiritual principles
and probably thousands of years of great thinkers and writers, and they just happened to organize them at a time that was much needed.
I mean, There was never before uh, real resolve. That has lasted for the relief from alcoholism and it's amazing that you go through thousands of years of history and There was only asylums or graves for people that couldn't handle it. almost 90 years ago a guy through much research and a little bit of serendipity organized these thoughts then put them in a book with another group of people.
And it's really, done a job and there's a reason it's been co opted by other groups because it works. You know,
overeating, uh, pornography, Addiction gambling codependent thinking. There's a lot of ways that this model can work because it's easy to read. It's 12 steps. You just do them in order.
And if you're honest, they can work for you. you're not honest, they're most not going to work for you no matter what.
Mm
[00:10:29] Aaron & Michaela: absolutely. and like I said, I've never followed one, strictly myself, but pulling from them has been huge, especially as Michaela was saying, like with my relationship to achievement or validation or
[00:10:42] Jim: hmm.
[00:10:42] Aaron & Michaela: like that, anything around, What we talk about here about building a career around my art and my creativity and the inevitable of that and the valleys of that is below a valley of all of that like is, you know, pushing a boulder up a hill it has really given me tools to be more gentle with myself show up for I guess my creativity or what I need to do to Be of service to Michaela or other artists that I work with, It can extend way beyond a substance or anything like
[00:11:14] Jim: Yeah.
[00:11:15] Aaron & Michaela: often then a use of a substance can be like a symptom the deeper addiction or your thing that really gets you and then you use these other things to numb or help the real root of the problem. Which I think is in a lot of lives, but definitely common in creative lives. Yes,
[00:11:35] Jim: because creative people often do not have what others call a boss.
[00:11:40] Aaron & Michaela: Yes,
[00:11:41] Jim: you can make up your own guidelines and your own business rules. And that often allows, a behavior that might not be acceptable in an office or a setting or a corporation. I think artists are the way they are.
Maybe for some of those reasons, too. We like to have the open rain to discover and be curious and fail and succeed, but we don't really want to be held down by a certain set of rules. Often. took me a lot of years to understand that about my creative spirit is I always thought I was a rebel.
and I really was just not understanding that my creative spirit doesn't need so many guidelines and guardrails. I needed to be open and so I thought I was winning by bucking authority and putting a finger up to the man.
And really, I just needed to know that my creative spirit needs to be in my life at the center. when I can express myself, I'm not fighting others. I'm not frustrated. So there's a connection there. I think that can come if you understanding yourself and y'all are, Raising a child will teach you a lot in that category.
Uh, if you let it, you know, it's also, frustrating. It'll teach its own lessons, but, I've heard you all say on, on the pod before too and, connect that raising a child is a creative action in itself. And if you don't have creativity, you're not as well off. to deal with that because you got to adjust.
You got to figure out new ways to amuse this little mind and body that's in front of you and calm it and soothe it and celebrate it. It's, a lot. And you're not creative, I think it's harder.
So,
So obviously you have so much wisdom you have clearly worked a lifetime to pursue, but just to set it up that you were the drummer and songwriter in Blowfish, one of the most beloved, bands of the nineties. I called my brother before this, just a side note, because I was like, Can you share a little bit of what has happened since then? Your, road to recovery to, post the height of fame and your solo career, your writing, your books, a little bit of, where you're at and what has happened.
Yeah, because certainly there are, epics of time, I'm 59, I'll be 60 later this year. So there's epics, and to answer a question about. How I do things or how I navigate life. They look very different through those epochs. in my twenties, of course, I was, trying to have the dream, I wanted to write music and I played in bands and we learn our craft as writers or performers.
And I was just striving for that with youthful energy and perseverance. in that period, I met my band mates here at the university of South Carolina in Columbia. And they had the same idea that I had. Let's we want to write original music and really give this thing a shot. And we did that and sort of had put in a bunch of years learning how to do it seeing what failure feels like building a small business learning to negotiate the path before the internet, which meant.
you had to save money to record in a real studio, you had to buy a van if you wanted to go anywhere, because that was the only way to transport your music to other audiences, we go so far back, our first few projects were on cassettes, when I'm in front of an audience live talking about this, I make people raise their hands who can acknowledge they owned cassettes, which is all the people that are over at
least 45 or 50but We're not even 40 yet and we, we had cassettes. I was, I
nice,
[00:15:17] Aaron & Michaela: I had cassettes before CDs.
[00:15:18] Jim: So, yeah, you go through you know, you want to write dreamer and there's no playbook. And so we, you know, got a little lucky,
[00:15:26] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah.
[00:15:28] Jim: the high school gymnasium where I went to high school and said, luck is where preparation meets opportunity.
So I got to see,
By the time we'd honed our craft, worked hard, luck came we got signed and Atlantic records, let us record a nice budgeted album. And not long after that, a guy called David Letterman, who had the biggest late night show Heard our song, hold my hand, which I had written at the end of college heard it on the radio and wanted to get us on his TV show in front of his five to 6 million fans.
And so that luck is where we, yeah, we prepared a lot and then we were in the right place for something magical to happen, which you kind of have to have both to get way up there. And so those things happen and then we charged through and we, live out our dreams. We recorded three albums in five years.
We're at the top of our game. We're traveling the world. It's all rosy. It's good change, right? It's not hard change. It's oh yeah, I can get used to more fans, a paycheck easy travel working hard. traveling, that's all easy stuff. But by the early 2000s, we've the downside of that mountain, because in this business, you know, you got to be on your game.
And even if you're on your game, frankly, the next new thing can sometimes knock you off your pedestal. So the next new thing was, Becoming the new thing by the early 2000s and we're struggling to acknowledge our shrinking fan base started taking You know gigs that were smaller and sort of obsessing over the empty seats in the venues which we eventually had to downsize into and at that time I didn't know what to do with that feeling.
And emotionally I was starting a family. So my family life was beginning and that's stressful and hopeful at the same time, but our careers were most definitely heading downward. And not knowing what to do with that, I did what we always did to celebrate that we get to be musicians who are getting paid and, having fans as lift a drink, you know, you do a shot or you champagne.
We, we toast socially for accolades and achievements and celebrations. And as I kept doing that, I was using it as a prop eventually. So what was recreational at one time became habitual and then medicinal and then full blown alcoholic. Though I didn't want to acknowledge it, most around me could see it was a serious problem, if not life threatening.
And by about the end of 2004, I finally got desperate enough, and it was painful and crummy enough that I asked for help. that's where I started. Had a friend lead me to a group of people who were practicing this 12 step model and it was life changing because I was willing to do it, not just because I sat around people who were doing it, but they said, you got to do it.
doesn't work through osmosis. So I did these steps and, Got the greatest gift of life. I got to understand who I was and I was 40. thought I knew who I was. I had these social achievements that looked like if you checked them off, I would have looked successful, right?
A house, a couple cars, a family. He's got a career, he's got everything. But on the inside, I was very tangled up and the 12 steps helped sort that out and detangle it for me. And, And then life, keeps going. You still have to face where are we as a band? And so by, 2007 or eight, it's continued to get smaller and smaller.
I go through a divorce, I've got two kids and all I can feel is that there's an intuition saying you need to not lose your kids in this period. So we went into a indefinite dormancy as a band. We decided the four of us after a lot of years together and unsure whether our money saved would get us through.
months or years. We all went into this dormancy. We didn't record and we weren't going to tour. it was that same time that our singer Darius decided I'm going to try a country project, which was a no guarantees country project, even though he's a talented singer, it looked unlikely that might succeed.
And funny thing happened by the end of 2008. I was getting remarried and he was having his first number one single as a country artist. if you imagine two years earlier that they would happen they didn't look very likely. And remarriage was made even more complicated by the fact that I was marrying our guitarist ex wife.
So maybe the dormancy came at the right time. Maybe it was a good time to all hang out in your separate homes together. so we arrived there and, you know, we spent 10 years in that period of three shows a year because we have Hootie and the Blowfish Foundation.
We wanted to continue to grow the foundation that supports South Carolina charities, but that was the only times we were getting together besides Mark and I sharing kids, It was an interesting time that has a happy ending not ending, but by 2019, we end up doing a big, massive reunion tour, and we're surprisingly back selling out amphitheaters across America, much to our surprise too, and delight.
you know, it answered the question of, are there any more Hootie fans out there? And we're doing it again this summer. So 2024 will be another 50 shows out there in amphitheaters. And in between there, I've learned a few things, but certainly still stuck with being a, human down here, flawed and imperfect and trying to negotiate that.
[00:20:38] Aaron & Michaela: so many things I want to get into. Yeah, that is a large journey.
[00:20:43] Jim: It is.
[00:20:44] Aaron & Michaela: your guitar player's ex wife, which I read that.
[00:20:46] Jim:
[00:20:46] Aaron & Michaela: that's all good now, right? You said that you guys have worked through sharing children and,
love those stories people figure out how to be in relationship together messy being a human sometimes.
[00:21:00] Jim: you know, when I joined the band, there was another drummer who had left. was still at the end of college and he wanted to take a different path and no regrets there. He's a great dude and successful in his own way. And I joined the band at that time.
And so for many years, it was just the four of us, playing hard, trying to learn how to write songs and get in the music business and then fame and fortune. And, funny thing happened when I stopped drinking is that it set me apart because we always partied together.
We had so much fun, but I couldn't do it responsibly. And though they were thankful that I was getting my life together, it also Caused a fissure in the four of us. And that happened again when I married Laura, there was a bit of a, Oh, this is difficult. This is what are we doing? Are we going to stay together?
But we always above everything realize that
Hooting the Blowfish is the most important thing, making music that inspires people and inspires us We do this because we're fans of music. So we know we can be important to other people too. So we've just decided. It's worth sticking it out. So that's why we've,
stuck it out during
tough times.
[00:22:04] Aaron & Michaela: it's such a common story to have that substance abuse tied to Success and also the downfall of success. Can you talk a little bit about that relationship of, what it felt like to have at the height of it, and excess, and if you in reflection have noticed any ways that it your ego and sense of self, and then, on the downside of itNot knowing what to do with that feeling and what that was of how you perceived in the moment and then also in, hindsight through recovery, like your relationship to yourself through success kind of minimizing in some ways.
[00:22:48] Jim: Yeah, it's hard to negotiate it mostly because I didn't have many of the tools, many of us go through the ups and downs of a creative career or even a career some other business. And it's hard to deal with that emotionally. And I, think when I started drinking. I started to use that as sort of a crutch to feel good.
What I didn't know is that I wasn't very good at controlling it. You can camouflage that through years with putting chemicals in your body, but doing it to Excess and access. didn't want to look at the fact that I was doing it to access.
intermittently from age 14 on Usually the addict does is they don't look at the sort of consequences or the real path. They ignore it and they just move forward and they justify, they rationalize. This isn't a big deal. I'm not in jail. He got arrested or she's throwing up.
I'm not
doing those things. So
we, justify, we're leaning into this thing that we can't let go of. And that's why it becomes, basically a crutch. So the time. I started using it really medicinally. It's frustrating cause I'm just in pain. We all have different pain for different reasons and we seek relief.
So the alcoholic seeks chemical to put in his body that gives him temporary relief. And then they downplay the consequences. I don't drink like a normal person, but I never could see that until I stopped and started measuring. Oh wait, I never wanted one drink. I never wanted three drinks. My math was when I get, Woozy or lightheaded.
I like that and I do more. But a normal person does not. They say, Ooh, I don't like the lack of control. I'm going to stop now or go to bed. And I could never fathom that. That's part of my mental obsession when I start it. my physical body has this craving that sets off and I can't control when I stop and there's
not always a consequence, but often there is and then I just, rationalize that it was smaller.
So I did this through many years and it started getting ugly, you just have to create more lies and secrets and self deception and it becomes confusing and frustrating. That's probably why I eventually sought help is because I just was sick and tired of
being sick and tired is what you might hear in a 12 step room.
And that was me. I just was too much. Couldn't juggle having two little kids at home and a wife and a career that was going downwards. Just couldn't do it. And what the 12 step model did is allow me to Take a broad picture and deep, they say, a searching and fearless moral inventory, which means I don't try and solve What
my problems are or what my grudges or my resentments or my regrets are in my head I write that stuff out and that that's key to my Transformation is that I tried to solve a lot of things I can solve some things in my head, right?
We're wise Developed intellectual humans we can solve things up here instantly but resolving 25 years of chemical abuse and Needs to be written out so I can see it and it can become real because
I want to believe so many things about myself to be good and I want you to believe them even more.
When I write them out, they become different. I look at them, I go, I have some trends here in my actions and in my thinking. And what I realized too, that is that, my thoughts and ideas and attitudes are the father of my actions. So I wondered why I was doing all these.
ridiculous behaviors, why I drank to excess, why I hurt people, why I denied and lied. I had to go back and look at my thoughts because that's where they begin and my attitudes and those need to be written out. And when I wrote them out, they made a lot of damn sense. I'll tell you, I could see where I had pride knocking at the door, and where pride knocked at the door, fear was probably hiding in the bushes there to come
join him.
[00:26:30] Aaron & Michaela: hmm.
[00:26:30] Jim: there's these things that worked in my life, and I could see them there. I'm, that just shows me the obstacle course. How valuable is that? I've got
[00:26:37] Aaron & Michaela: Mm
[00:26:38] Jim: a lot going on up in this noggin, but when I can write it out and see it and acknowledge it, I now see the obstacle course of life. I'm bad at this.
am fearful. I get lonely. I practice self pity. I tend to blame, and those aren't even really my problems. My problems are how I choose to solve them. So you think my
problems are bad. You ought to see my solutions.
[00:27:01] Aaron & Michaela: I love that. That's a great way to put it. I started writing things out seven years ago or So Kind of hit like a big inflection point in my life. I'm not fully sober, but did go to full sobriety for a little bit more than a year and a half. And, now I'll have a, drink every like one drink every three months or so.
But drinking was an issue. I definitely would drink often, especially being on the road. but smoking pot was my big thing that I would hide behind that. you know, and I was getting in touch with my creativity and that was really what I struggled with and I haven't. touched it in that long.
in doing all of that work, I started writing things down and what it allowed me to do was to dig deeper. I could see the story and the path of everything, but it also like allowed me the facility to like turn over more rocks as I went and was like, Oh, what's here?
What's here? And I didn't realize it until Some work I've done recently with cognitive behavioral therapy and
[00:27:56] Jim: Hmm.
[00:27:57] Aaron & Michaela: things down and how that moves us from our, I'm going to get this wrong. And I hope somebody calls me out. But I think it's your case. Hippocampus, or your hypothalamus, I hope there's some listener that knows what I'm talking about and they can fill me in part of your brain, the rear part of your brain that is, your emotional response, your
[00:28:12] Jim: Yeah.
[00:28:17] Aaron & Michaela: cortex that I know is correct, which is more your logical thinking your reasoning you're being in control center And then talking to, him and realize like writing it down. It's moving to there and so you become More analytical more accepting you're not emotionally reacting to these things
[00:28:34] Jim: Yeah.
[00:28:35] Aaron & Michaela: it So, so it gave me more facility to Look deeper and explore deeper
[00:28:39] Jim: Nice.
Okay. very
[00:28:55] Aaron & Michaela: and notice It's such a change in him and I notice with myself when I'm not writing or journaling, how it's such a clear avoidance tactic that I'm like, I don't want to deal with stuff.
So I'm just going to dig my heels in. And the moment I
[00:29:35] Jim: Yeah. So
it's a, it's a bit of a, I don't know. It's a bit of
a I don't know,
it's a, it's a bitIt's it's really hard to, to, to not only, you know, you know, this way, or, oh, this
applies to, you know, the, the faculty as well.
[00:29:56] Aaron & Michaela: years? And like your journals? And I was like, yeah, very occasionally. And I was like, I often avoid doing that I noticed damn it, I've been writing about the same shit for 20 years.
Like, It's literally the same anxieties, concerns as when I was 18 years old. so I think that's also helpful to be like you're tracking yourself and being like, okay. Maybe this is my life's journey like the thing that I really need to work on and also like how many more pages do I want to spend on this before I want to try and enact some changes
[00:30:31] Jim: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:32] Aaron & Michaela: myself
[00:30:32] Jim: We're trying to move beyond, you know, these flaws that we have. We're imperfect beings, so we try and move past these flaws, but it is easy to get caught in the cycle of the same flaw and maybe never resolving it. Maybe it ebbs and flows. there's a lot to be said. being really purposeful, not just to write it out to you.
I found like expressing is good, but again the, 12 steps gave me a, like really driven purpose to say, we're going to acknowledge these things, but we're also going to, the purpose is to move on from them. So we're not dominated by them. Although I still practice, willingly, some of the flaws I have, I'm not dominated by these things, the Bible or Christians would call them sins, but really it's spiritual malady, I've got these things I do as techniques, self pity, blame, I go from grandiose to behavior to really small woe is me sort of thing, the extremes.
But if I can purposefully move on and,make them all smaller I think the best I'm going to do. I don't, you know, we don't get to be free ofthese flaws. We just get to not be dominated by them anymore.
[00:31:39] Aaron & Michaela: I love that a lot of work that I've done Over the last few years since I kind of had that inflection point was a lot of work with like shadow You know, I think you saidpride was knocking at the door and right behind it was fear, so there's all these like shadow things you're acting one way and then behind it, there's this other intention that like you said, Christians might refer to it as like a sin or, you know, you could be referred to as like your lower self energetically, you know, and a lot of the work that I do is just talking about seeing your shadow and keeping it in front of you.
of it. You're not gonna get rid of it. Everybody has a shadow and it's just part of, being living beings on this planet, not necessarily flawed. But to keep that shadow in front of you and just be aware of it. there it is.
That's part of me. Just like
[00:32:21] Jim: Yeah.
[00:32:21] Aaron & Michaela: that's really great of me,
[00:32:23] Jim: Yeah,
[00:32:23] Aaron & Michaela: me
[00:32:24] Jim: yeah, I've enjoyed writing about that celebration. I think I took a turn in my music writing career when we went into dormancy and I wasn't writing for what I thought the Hootie audience was anymore. Wasn't writing with the pain and suffering and heartache that I'd been in addiction and failed relationships.
I, found a way out and was wanting to write about that acknowledgement that I'm human and that there's a higher way of thinking. I have my lower thinking, like you said, and
some better ways. And I wanted to write about that, so that was a big turn for my songwriting, too, that I've still leaning into is that I want to write about that there is hope for transformation, that love has to be the lead for me or I'm going the wrong way whether it's just loving oneself, but mainly how I can give grace and how I can be more selfless.
And I've really enjoyed that, how it's all affected my songwriting too, because I realized at one point I'm done with writing about, Oh, I've ruined this and I broke this and I'm terrible. It can make for a fun song cause a lot of people relate to it, but
[00:33:27] Aaron & Michaela: hmm.
[00:33:28] Jim: write aboutas my wife says less gory, more glory.
[00:33:33] Aaron & Michaela: Mm hmm. I um, yeah. And it's the way I speak to groups too. Don't rely on all the backstory of, Oh, I was terrible and I failed. And I was addicted, right? share the solution and the hope and the glory as well. So I've enjoyed leaning into that more celebratory story.
yeah. Have you found that the topics that you want to write about, what has that process been like? Has it been conscious or just something that's been a byproduct of your evolution And also like detaching from the sense of who your audience is? Just like you said.
Leaving behind writing for what you thought the Hootie audience was just like writing for yourself. Was that a conscious shift or something that you've just noticed
[00:34:16] Jim: Um,
[00:34:17] Aaron & Michaela: I
[00:34:19] Jim: I'm evolved. That's a, a great compliment.
Yeah, that that's changed. Certainly after. We had our first success with Cracked Rearview, which came out in 94 and then blew up in 95.
And it was the centerpiece of our careers as far as sales. Once you write that, which was the greatest hits of our first five or six years, you can never go back. pure thinking not considering who are you writing towards or what will the record company like, or is this course catchy enough? You can never go back.
And it wasn't until. I got sober got remarried and started evolving air quotes that I decided I want to write what I want to write. I don't have a solo audience. I had to be clear about that. There were some Hootie fans that might be interested in what the drummer was writing and singing, but I was starting all over.
So my first sort of phase was, I want to write some things I've been hearing in church and through this other group I was attending called Celebrate Recovery. And so I went what I call full Jesus for three EPs. called Found, In, and Love and Order. And I just felt bold. I wanted to be bold for that specific time of my life.
And so I did. I wrote stuff that was contemporary Christian, if you had to put it in a category. And from there, I started realizing I want to widen it a little bit. And so I was writing about more themes that could be accepted by people that didn't want Jesus in their rock and roll. And that's a whole nother audience.
Not everybody is comfortable with having that direct Christianity mentioned in every verse and chorus. I since then have evolved a little bit into. I want to keep this thing open for the concept of love in general and all of that encompasses and you can still write happy fun purposeful music and so i've had a series of eps since then that have broadened out and then jesus slips back in because
his teachings for me have continued to pop up. So my next EP, I'm sure he'll be in there again, along with some other positive, hopeful spirited songs.
[00:36:29] Aaron & Michaela: So do you feel like you've been able to move past that the words that comes to mind is like success curse in your creativity where you're able to write what you want. Are you able to turn off that? internal critic that's thinking about audience and reception and,
the, sales part are, do you feel like you've been able to move past that?
[00:36:49] Jim: for one, I'm lucky that I have always naturally written pretty accessible and direct leaning towards pop music. part of
my influence growing up was though I loved a lot of different styles and a lot of different weird and heavy and hard and jazzy and obscure, the heart of me was always guys like Barry Manilow and Bob Seger and.
Honestly, REO Speedwagon and Neil Diamond and guys that were writing and ladies that were writing overtly pop choruses for the most part. And so that's also my entrance into Hooting the Blowfishes. I had written a song a few months earlier. I'd written a lot of songs and a lot of them weren't that high quality or understandable, but hold my hand was one
that I, auditioned for the band and they asked at the end of the audition, after we played 30 REM songs and all these cover songs that we were learning at the time, they said, do you have any original music?
And I, showed them hold my hand, three chords
overt grandiose in the chorus, just simple. If anything, that summed up just my roots and my core is that kind of like stuff like that. so I don't ever have to fight thinking it's a sellout to write something.
It's simple like that or anthemic that's my nature. So if anything, I have to pull back from that. And over the years. There was always pushback of when I came in with the song. It was like, Oh my gosh, is this going to be one of these cheesy ballots again? when
they work for you and they sell, it's wonderful, but eventually it can be too much.
And
so
I have to pull back the other way and say, Let's just write something isn't too rhymy, or isn't trying to be hooky, or
maybe even more sincere. I get caught up in, rhyme schemesand trying to make it so obvious. Sometimes that's a flaw for me. So
I've had to put out a whole album where a guy named Francis dunnery and I produced it.
It came out in 2008 and we just put out the 15th anniversary. It's called snowman melting. And he pulled me back the other way. He saw that I had all these big courses and as fun as they were, he wanted something more interesting and more personal. So he pulled me way back and said, Just write about what's in front of you in a room.
Don't worry about rhyming it. Get to deep sit up, talk about the things you are seeing and don't worry about love and pain and all the emotion necessarily As the main part. it was a great exercise still have to remember of, of songwriting, you know, it's,
it can be different for everybody.
So,
Hold My Hand is such an incredible song I can summon it in my mind immediately and has such like a visceral, emotional response for me of triggering all these memories and associations. obviously like, you needmore than just that. expanding, but also honoring what your tendency is, is a really great thing without demeaning like, what your tendency is,
Yeah.
[00:39:41] Aaron & Michaela: that's what's most natural.
[00:39:43] Jim: As writers, we did that well in our earlier years working together. We didn't have a in songwriting. We didn't have a guide really, except for the music we loved and learning how to write towards Darius as the lead singer was an important skill. Like in a song that was written within two years after Hold My hand, a song called Time that's also on Cracked Rear View.
was learning that while I can write some good melodies and arrangements and have some catchy parts, I needed to invite Darius in because he needed to have his heart in it, and time is a good example where I've written the first verse Got the skeleton of the song and some of the repeated parts, but he writes verse two and three, which are incredibly important to the song, and very different than where I would have gone.
He's writing about his experience as a person of color in America, which is very different than this white guy here that grew up in the cornfields of Illinois, and That's important to that song because it's got balance now. It's got some love and the overt things, but it's got Darius's deep and personal experience about being a black man in the South growing up in the, then the early nineties.
things sometimes just need to be rectified and, balanced out. And Took a little while to learn that about what he liked so that was another example of sort of
how you co write successfully and let each other breathe and interpret. None of our songs in those early days are worth anything without all four of us, I'll be clear about that.
I say I wrote a song, but it's all the sum of the parts, you know, and that goes with songs like Let Her Cry, which Darius wrote all of those lyrics and pretty much had an arrangement that he brought to us. He wrote it, but it was ours and we needed all four of our parts. Mark wrote so much great stuff that he invited us into what's your take on this?
Or what would you do with the chorus? Or what would you put as a beat? So all that happens. earlier years before we had a hit and then it got all screwed up.
[00:41:45] Aaron & Michaela: so you guys would, no matter how much you weren't quantifying who contributed what, you always would split the songwriting credits
[00:41:53] Jim: Yeah. Our quantifying was 25 percent times four. So we all were invited into the royalties and we still are. There's nothing that is split any different. It made for a, team attitude and that was important to us. We're all kind of kids that grew up playing sports. So we understood you're fighting for your team, not your individual accolades.
I think we got that from REM who were sharing their royalties, I think. And they were also sharing
with their manager, I think, and we also invited our manager into our business, not necessarily the royalties, but It was a five way business partnership.
We used REM to look at and say, how are they doing it? They were inspirational to us in business and art.
[00:42:33] Aaron & Michaela: when did you guys Grab onto the business part and spell that out. Was it pre-deal with Atlantic
[00:42:39] Jim: luckily it was.
[00:42:41] Aaron & Michaela: we always end up crediting our bass player, Dean Felber, who had a degree in, I think uh, business finance. while my degree was in the arts and Mark's was in journalism, and Darius's was a lot of things ultimately together as one, Dean is the one who made us.
[00:42:59] Jim: count money, and if we made 100, which was often a great payday, we were putting 30 of that aside for tax or new tires on our van or to insure our van. I wouldn't say we were in the music business. But we had a business mind that said, let's just be smart about this stuff. Let's not have to borrow money.
Let's not have to need somebody to invest in us. Let's
be, Self driven and self sustaining. So we were As soon as we could save money for our first demo, we did, and we funded it, and we saved money to buy a couple dozen t shirts so we could sell them and profit, and then we sold cassettes and we were doing all this in in 89 when I joined, and 90, 91, 92, we didn't get signed till the end of 93, and didn't get in the studio for Cracked Review till 94, We had our financial act together.
For the most part, it's not like we had 200, 000 in a bank, but we could pay for most of the things we had to fund, and knew how to organize it in that sense. We were good on taxes and insurance, which most bands probably wouldn't
have been able to say. And,
[00:44:10] Aaron & Michaela: we
Haven't talked about it a lot lately, but I feel like that's one of our goals with this is to like, shed more light on that kind of stuff for artists and bands like, we both went to music school and I'm always like, how come they didn't offer any classes taxes and accounting, like as a self employed person?
Yeah.
[00:44:31] Jim: our university, South Carolina, and a lot of schools that are starting the business of music or their music schools are saying you can also study music business. One of our children has a degree in that and arts management. And that means you learn the business side
so there wasn't any classes. We always just tried to rely on finding some people around us that would be honest with us. And that meant finding an attorney who knew we didn't make any money, but he'd look at a few contracts and say, don't sign here, and we had an accountant that would count our few dollars and make sure we paid the right taxes so we didn't get into trouble.
We found a producer even that we were willing to ask, say, dude, tell us where we are truthfully, because Knowing that is probably more important than anything. And we had just finished our first cassette. It was 1990 and this guy managed bands and was a producer. And we thought this first cassette was going to get assigned and we'd be stars by the end of the week.
And went in there boldly and said uh, hisguy's name was Dick Hodge and Dick, where are we, man? Tell, you can tell us where we are. And we were eager and hopeful. And he sat us down and he was a real smart Alec. And he said man, it's a big super highway, the music business. And he said, I have no doubt you guys are going to get there, but you know, there's a lot of roads to lead there.
And ultimately there's, you know, an on ramp to that super highway. There's four lane divided roads, there's avenues and even little streets. we said, yeah, Dick where are we? Thinking he's at least going to have us on the on ramp. He says, you guys are in the kitchen looking for your car keys.
And we're like, What? Like it hurt so bad because he was right. He was saying, you're at the beginning. You're in a good spot. If you work hard and write better songs and build a crowd, you'll probably get signed eventually and be able to be in the music business. But he was telling us firmly right now, you're scrounging around looking for the keys to the car.
And
what we needed, the truth.
[00:46:26] Aaron & Michaela: trimester of their careers, I would say there's almost like a fear to talk about the finance, we can go deep and talk about the psychology behind that, the imposter syndrome, the, fear of inadequacy in yourself that you don't want to talk about the finance because you might get rejected or you might have shame that your finances aren't where they are supposed to be or whatever that is.
[00:46:55] Aaron & Michaela: I spent years on the road with bands and all of that and I learned very quickly like, there's no emotion behind numbers and money.
[00:47:15] Jim: Yeah.
[00:47:16] Aaron & Michaela: like this is where it is. Let's talk about that. Let's find something that works for both of us. And then we don't have to talk about it anymore. And we can focus solely on the creative aspect,
[00:47:24] Jim: Yeah.
[00:47:32] Aaron & Michaela: you signed with Atlantic. With the way splits were and all of that like, it's an age old story where, you know, all of a sudden there's money and then there, the greed sets in and, possessiveness and Yeah. Mhm.
[00:47:50] Jim: certainly. Uh, it's also, you know,
I guess called paying your dues, and if you're trying to pay rent with your art it's a hard avenue and a lot of artists that I see including myself aren't great with doing the numbers.
that's not our gift and some of us do it better than others. But yeah, we managed, like I said, with Dean to make some wise choices and we didn't have any money. I think we ended up borrowing a little money. at the very end just to fund this CD. Cause we're moving into the compact disc format by
93. for the most part, we're just on the edge. everything that we made, we reinvested in more t shirts, more
cassettes,
newer van that we could finally use. it's blissful. An artist that doesn't need to feed other mouths, It's great, and maybe that's people that are younger can just skid by and they don't need to be rich financially or materially.
so we had a blissful period there for about five, six years where, We didn't have anything. We could barely pay rent, but our audience was growing. We were writing better songs, and we had a few people around us we could trust in the financial area.
when you are your own manager, and maybe that's the hardest for younger people because they don't understand the ideas and that the music business can be and that there's people that are willing to take your dollars if you're not willing to hold onto them and be wise.
I'm back in that spot now, practically. I'm, booked myself for gigs that maybe don't pay, maybe pay a little. I've written a book that I'm going out to also talk and speak on. And it's hard doing all those things. It's hard being your own booking agent, your own manager, and the artist who's got to be prepared to perform.
but sometimes you have to do all those things. Sometimes that's how you learn about.
scoundrels out there in the business, or how you learn. Oh, I guess I need to take money out for rent before I buy, a bunch of beer or a new guitar.
We all want shortcuts and I don't think this generation, even though they have the internet, which is very convenient and has some shortcuts, I don't think. Any of us were ever, trying to do it the hard way or the long way. You just if there were shortcuts, I would have taken them too, but we
didn't have any, shortcuts back then.
You just worked hard and toiled. And I think yeah, you got to learn that. a little bit by a little bit if you're younger learn how to fail and how to keep going, how to come up short and not let it crush your spirits and how to trust people, but not be naive.
[00:50:16] Aaron & Michaela: in doing that all for yourself, you learn what you need for a team. You learn, maybe it makes me sound a little, older, but like, all of these people that have blown up on TikTok and all of a sudden have a whole team around them in a record deal and, show up to soundcheck.
We live in Nashville, so there's a lot of, sidemen. They get hired for these gigs where they show up and it's somebody that's famous from TikTok and they show up at soundcheck and they've never done a soundcheck before. They've never played their guitar into a DI and it's like, they have a major label behind them.
They have a major booking agent. They have a manager and people show up and it's like, Good luck. It's interesting. You know? It's
[00:50:49] Jim: It is insane. I, I've only recently started hearing stories like the one you just told, and it makes sense. people use the internet to connect with people before they've even developed their skill. people are always asking, do you suggest to the younger audience? I'm just like, get in front of some people with your songs and play live.
Don't need to get paid practice. being terrible
Andwhole convenience of, click tracks and pitch correctors that we use to record doesn't go very far when you're standing in front of 45 people in a bar. And you can't sing and pitch, you know, you got
to go out and do that hard work. and it's hard to get people to understand that because it is easier, frankly, to use devices to sound good and then just make a cool video and send it out to the worldwide web and get a fan base.
[00:51:38] Aaron & Michaela: the way that we came up was also just playing live shows, playing so many bar gigs. Anywhere, everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like Thank God there's no video of that stuff. We're not like, we're still pretty young.
It was only like 10 years ago, but obviously it's not to say that people who gain fame on Tik Tok are not good at that crap. their craft or don't work on it, but it's a different thing when you're live in front of people, just your instrument and like, yeah, you have a microphone, but you're not having filters or recording technology.
All of that stuff and what you develop also just resilience and resolve as a person and learning how to navigate an audience and communicate with an
[00:52:16] Jim: going to the the the thethe
[00:52:26] Aaron & Michaela: want to like, sound like a jaded older you know, but like maybe that is something that we want to try and hold onto.
because so much is immediate let's put it on the internet and then it's there forever And then it could be massive. It could be whatever but it's always there there's this urgency versus What about protecting the space and time to let yourself be bad not
[00:52:49] Jim: Hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:16] Aaron & Michaela: run their show for those people. And they're like, this is way more nerve wracking than going and playing in a theater you guys have seen the sausage be made and you know, when we're making bad sausage, you know, Or how, before we recorded your record, you went out and played a bunch of house shows
see what these songs
[00:53:42] Jim: Yeah.
[00:53:42] Aaron & Michaela: like because it informs me as well.
[00:53:45] Jim: Yeah. that practice is necessary and those kids, they'll do it the way they do it.
[00:53:51] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Like we said, the one thing we can count on is change, so it will change again.
[00:53:56] Jim: Right.
[00:53:57] Aaron & Michaela: Well, thank you so much for spending this hour with us and talking This was just really insightful. Yeah.
[00:54:07] Jim: is acknowledging, not just the things you've experiencedThank goodness for the Rolling Stones, because I'm a 59 year old guy was a drummer in a famous band likes to go out and do solo gigs and speaking engagements, but I don't feel that old when Mick Jagger is getting up this summer to do another tour and Keith Richards.
Like, sometimes we tell ourselves maybe, gosh, you know, I'm too old for this. Or these younger people, they must think I'm really old, but really, thanks, Mick, for stretching it out there.
You're 21 years older than me and making me feel young.
[00:54:39] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, Jim, thanks again for taking the time to do all this. And we'll make sure we'll link to your solo records and your new book as well. all the places where the podcast is streaming.
[00:54:51] Jim: I appreciate it.
Y'all have a great day.
[00:54:53] Aaron & Michaela: all right, Jim, again for taking the time. Bye.
[00:54:56] Jim: Bye.
[00:54:56] Aaron & Michaela: See ya.