Joe Pug sold 20,000 copies of his first record after handing out free sampler CDs, and has gone on to be a DIY champion with multiple records and a successful podcast - The Working Songwriter. We talk intricacies of running a business as a creative, prioritizing your time and attention throughout the creative process, career longevity, and the lessons in Dante's Inferno.
Joe Pug sold 20,000 copies of his first record after handing out free sampler CDs, and has gone on to be a DIY champion with multiple records and a successful podcast - The Working Songwriter. We talk intricacies of running a business as a creative, prioritizing your time and attention throughout the creative process, career longevity, and the lessons in Dante's Inferno.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:07] Aaron: Hi, and welcome to today's episode of The Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I am Michaela Anne. And since this show is brand new, I'm assuming you are a brand new listener. So thank you for checking it
[00:00:18] Aaron: out. We like to think of this show as the anti album cycle podcast. So what that means is it's not your typical show where our guests are gonna come on and talk about their new record or their new tour.
we call it the other 22 hours, because we wanted to focus on the time that we as musicians, Are not on stage and explore different tools and routines that our guests use to keep balance in their lives during the less than shiny times
[00:00:39] Michaela: Between the two of us, we have almost 25 years of experience, touring and working in the music business.
I've spent the better part of the last decade putting out records on my own as well as with labels touring the world and building an independent.
[00:00:52] Aaron: And I started making records with friends in high school, then spent years on the road with a bunch of different bands before deciding that I really like to make records.
And so now I spend a lot of time right here in my studio, if you're watching on YouTube. My studio here in Nashville, making records and writing songs for TV and commercials. So essentially, Mikayla and I are lifers. And through all of this, we've learned that there's no one right way to build a career around your passion.
[00:01:15] Michaela: And in an industry where so much is out of our control, left up to luck, being in the right place at the right time, who you know, we wanted to focus on the things that are within our control.
[00:01:26] Aaron: So with that idea in mind, we decided to invite our friends on to have conversations about the other times that are outside of the public eye and ask them questions like, what do you do to create sustainabilities that you can sustain your creativity?
[00:01:38] Michaela: Today's guest is Joe Pug.
Joe Pug is. An incredible singer songwriter from Maryland. He's been in the game for, about 15 years now. I've been lucky enough to tour with him over the last several years and see his show night after night. And I will say that of everybody in this business.
I don't know if there's someone I respect more than Joe Pug
[00:02:00] Aaron: and despite McKayla touring with him for years, this was really the first time I've been in both sit and have a conversation with him face to face. I kind of stepped in knowing what to expect cuz Joe has a great podcast called The Working Songwriter Podcast and his email newsletter is a great read. It's really informative, it's really entertaining and it doesn't clog up my inbox all the time.
[00:02:20] Michaela: Yeah, so today we got to chat with him about how he has evolved from starting out, a buzzy upstart in his early twenties to becoming a family man and how he's really adapted his career to fit his interests and his desire rather than sacrificing his Personal relationships himself to fit into the mold of the career.
[00:02:43] Aaron: And we'd spent a lot of time talking about understanding and chasing down what you're interested in almost exclusively when it comes to your creativity. And then the opposite end of the spectrum, and how important it is to keep like really great data on the business end of your career, That way you have an objective marker on how to really gauge what is working and what's not, and how well you're doing. A lot of times, us as creatives, when we're building a career around our passion, it's really hard to get emotion out of the way, and we might feel that we're doing great or feel that we're doing horribly.
And when you keep it all in numbers, you get a great view of what's happening without all of that noise in there. But let's let Joe tell you. sounds like a kid's show. Let's let Joe tell you about it. Hey Joe, why don't you tell us about it, Joe? So without
[00:03:24] Michaela: further ado, here's our conversation with Joe.
welcome. Thank you for being one of our first guests on the other 22 hours. Yes. So I know that we've emailed and texted and stuff, but we always just like to start out reiterating that this is, not too dissimilar from Your podcast. but it's not, an album promotion podcast.
We wanna try and talk about the things that we don't normally talk about In public without trying to make people, More vulnerable, than they're comfortable, but we wanna talk about.
the ways that you've learned and continue to learn to center Your creativity and care for yourself
Through a career and industry that kind of does everything to make that incredibly hard.
So one of the first questions I.
had, I've had the privilege of touring with you and getting to know you a little bit over the last couple of years, and then was, have been reading a bunch of interviews that you've done and you. More than most people seem like someone who's constantly reinventing ways to do this and to make it more amenable to your life and what you want out of this career versus, no, I have to sacrifice everything and just do what the business tells me I need to do.
was that kind of your ethos from the beginning and has that evolved and how has that evolved even more, especially as you've gotten older and started a family?
[00:04:45] Joe: No, I was much more career focused in my twenties and I was much more willing to make massive sacrifices on the personal end. not only was that fine in my twenties, but it was really desirable and I really enjoyed finding all of my. Meaning for the most part through my job, and my business.
But then I hit my thirties, I got married, I started a family, and that all changed immediately. it wasn't even a question of whether I was going to sometimes prioritize music and sometimes prioritize my wife and my kids. It was like my wife and my kids are my priority now. Full stop. There's not a close second and. I, I feel like because I had lived out a lot of stuff in my twenties and gotten to do it full on, I didn't have any hangups about being like, and I will quit this business right now. I don't care. I'll go manage a Jiffy Lube tomorrow. I know how to run QuickBooks.
I, I could be really useful to anybody's business and stay home and watch my kids and, be around my family. So, I feel like in some ways, I needed to do that thing where I leaned into my career early so that there weren't any hangups. It's like if I had to leave the music business, man I don't know.
I gave it the old college try. there was never gonna be anything. Like, I wonder what would've happened if I had gone for it. You know? It's like I went for it and, you know, it, played out the way that it played out and that's fine.
[00:06:01] Aaron: Yeah, I feel like we still have that conversation kind of every few weeks we're like so, uh, what masters are you gonna go get this week? Like, you know, what, what are we gonna
[00:06:11] Michaela: do now?
How are we going to shift careers?
[00:06:14] Joe: if you own a business, and particularly if you're creative that owns a business, if you're not at least yearly checking in in a real way, being like, is it responsible for me to do this for another year? I think you're a little bit out to lunch. You need to be doing that at least yearly to say, you know, is this sustainable? Is this smart for me? Is this smart for my. Because otherwise I think you're living in a little bit of denial. it's a crazy thing to do for a living, so you might as well acknowledge that.
[00:06:38] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. It is been really just the last year myself Because I've slowly, over the last seven years shifted from being on the road all the time being a sideman flying from the end of one tour to the start of another tour with another band. And, I like to say the pandemic called my bluff for years. I was like, oh, I wanna spend less time.
on the road. I wanna be in my studio. I wanna make records. And the pandemic's like, cool, here you go. Let's see what that's like. And really just the last year I've tighten down the screw on like the business end of my business and like keeping a lot of data on everything.
That way I have like a really.
tangible way to compare, like, how is this going? Or even more so like what is working, what is beneficial which I think is from having a kid, it's like, I don't wanna waste my time, if this isn't gonna work, let's move on to something
[00:07:19] Joe: I mean, Every artist should have a, at the very least. We're run a profit loss report every year, with some kind of software that kind of categorizes at least the broad, categories. And then you can compare between years. before tax income.
your after tax income and sometimes it surprises you in a negative way. Like, Oh man, we've, whew, we've been making less money than we should. Sometimes it surprises you in a positive way where you feel like you haven't been having that good of a year, and then you look at the numbers and you say, oh we're actually up 15% in net revenue here.
Don't trip It's okay. The
money's there.
[00:07:48] Michaela: I think because in creatives everything is so feeling based on what we do. and we both went to music school and I'm always like, don't teach you the valuable things in music school. Like knowing All of the
modes. Does nothing for me in my life as a professional musician.
If I had learned about spreadsheets and taxes, I would be
so much better off. But I think, this past
year,
a lot of times when.
I've been like, oh, it doesn't feel like things are going well, it doesn't feel as exciting as before. And like, am I epicly failing this year? And. I learned over the years to
start, taking like very detailed spreadsheets of every single tour.
So I have my profit loss, I have what I made on merch and then you know, he'll be like look back and compare like you're doing better, and then I look at.
The actual hardcore data and I'm like, oh, I've sold more than I ever have. but maybe like my Instagram likes don't feel as exciting.
I'm like, maybe that's just that the thrill is
[00:08:43] Joe: thrill is gone.
Yeah. There's a certain type of thrill I doing those profit and losses. I found a composition notebook where I had cataloged via hand, the numbers of people coming to shows on one of my first tours in 2009, 2010, that tour I felt like I was famous or something on that tour, you know what I mean?
Like it was all happening. All this stuff is great. And I look back and the most amount of tickets we sold at a show on that tour, like 150, and most of the shows had 30 people at them. If 30 people came to one of my shows right now, I would never go back to that market ever again for the rest of my life.
You know what I mean? Just be like, done. So, And then I can go to a place now and sell 125 tickets and feel like I'm bummed. You know what I mean? So it's all relative and, and yeah. You do have to have those metrics to, remind you about
[00:09:23] Aaron: Yeah. And it.
also piggybacking on what McKayla was saying about this business being feeling based, which I would assume is inherent in any business based around monetizing your passion, there's that drawing that you see a lot that's feels like success is this straight line, but it's actually just the Squiggle. that your toddler drew, and ultimately, you know, in the best case scenario, you start here and you end higher for those that are watching on YouTube. But, there's so many ups and downs in the way. having numbers and having spreadsheets that you can go back and look at is a really tangible way of being like, oh, I am like much further down this road.
[00:09:57] Michaela: so there's that aspect, but
then also the aspect of how you feel about your identity as an artist and how you feel like you've been perceived and. What has your relationship to that been like? Like when you First started out what was it, like 2009 or earlier? Because I was right, right outta college and I worked at a record, label. None such records. and I remember hearing about you,
and I remember all the buzz about Joe Pug and like his, comparisons to Bruce Springsteen and Bob Dylan. and like
[00:10:25] Joe: What is that?
[00:10:26] Michaela: do to your. Head. And how do you then deal with expectations and not meeting expectations or exceeding expectations and then how that feeds your identity to your yourself and your relationship to your work. And how has that.
Evolved over the last what, 15 years or
[00:10:44] Joe: last Yeah. At the very start, I got to do that little ride that a lot of artists get to do with their debut record. If you have a debut record, That gets some buzz. Things can take off or seem like they're taking off very quickly in, in a lot of opportunities. in those first 18 months of my career.
Presented themselves. I got to go on tour with Steve Earl. I was touring on his tour bus in Europe, 18 months later I got to play all the big festivals, Lollapalooza, Bonnaroo, all that stuff. Got a bunch of great press when press still kind of meant. And this is all like a pre Spotify world, so there's no playlists or anything like that to get, but you get like the Paste magazine, sampler CD or Mm-hmm. which is huge. Yeah. Yeah. That was like a, that was like getting playlisted at the time, which makes me sound like a dinosaur, but it is what it is. And so I got to go on that ride. It does mess with you ego, a. Definitely when you're, 24 years old and you're just like, man, I got the world by the short hairs.
And I know more than other people and I'm, so great. and then, life, asserts itself, reality asserts itself and you gotta come back down to earth. that's a good thing. That's a really good thing. And, And that happened pretty quick for me, I'd say that initial ride lasted the first two years and, the last 13 years have been a different thing of adjusting to that new normal I think a dangerous thing.
And I really don't think that this is sour grapes, but I think a dangerous thing is if you get to go on that ride and then it really takes off for you, I think you can really start getting high in your own supply at that point and uh, surround yourself with a lot of people that, don't say no to you.
And. That everything that you say is great, and unless you have really good people in your life, and unless you're a really grounded, exceptionally wise person, I think that can go sideways really quick. But yeah, long story short, life humbles you in general, but the music business will definitely humble you, very quickly.
But that's good and that's fine. And it ends up making you a better artist a lot of ways. I would guess, and. It's the way of the world,
[00:12:28] Aaron: That humbling experience for you. Did that affect your creative. process? after you had that initial ride, did you have like a period where it was hard to write? Did you have a period where you're Jiffy Lube looks pretty cool. Like how did that look for you?
[00:12:43] Joe: It just didn't line up for me. I, I assumed that it would be the same amount of buzz behind every project that I did after the first one had a lot of buzz. And that can't be the case for anybody. I was listening to John Hyatt on Spotify the other day, and I discovered a record that he put out in like the year 2000 that I wasn't familiar with.
I'm a huge John Hyatt fan. I'm a massive John Hyatt fan, and I had never spent any time with this album that he put out in 2000. So even me is like a really hardcore John Hyatt fan, this album that he worked really hard on round the turn of the century. That was at that time for him, I'm sure like the most important thing to him.
Even a lot of his hardcore fans didn't even listen. You know what I mean? there's a lot of stuff to do in life and there's only so much time that you have to listen to music. And when you do listen to music, there's only so much time you have to listen to one artist. So it did mess with me at first that it's hard to get people's attention with every project, but you just realize that you don't have a lot of control over that and you all you have to do is just keep on making art cuz it's desirable.
Keep on finding a way to finance that in a way, and then, When the zeitgeist moves your way or moves away from you, no one can really guess at that. I've seen a lot of people that think that they can guess at that, and I think they're full of it. I really don't think that you can, can do that.
Or I, they do catch the zeitgeist, what they'll say afterwards, they'll put on like some kind of post hoc rationalization as to why it happened. But they never like intentionally or rationally planned their way into it.
[00:14:02] Michaela: Yeah, we're talking to uh, Joey and Kenneth later today of the milk carton kids, for people listening who don't know who that is. And I was listening to their episode on your podcast and you guys were talking about. The aspect of look that comes into all of this and not taking anything personally, and this is something that came up with another person we interviewed recently of just,
[00:14:22] Joe: I've.
[00:14:23] Michaela: Thought, oh yeah, you gotta have thick skin and don't take it personally when people don't like you or ignore you or whatever, your music.
But then the concept of but you?
also can't take it personally when you're getting all the
positive.
[00:14:35] Joe: you go. There you go. That's a big deal.
[00:14:37] Michaela: Yeah. And I felt like, I'm 36 and I, and I've been at this for a while, and I was like, oh, I feel kind of dumb that I'm.
like, oh yeah. I realized How much? I have taken it personally when I've had good stuff happen of like, oh, okay, now I'm doing it.
Now I'm on the Right, path. And then, You put out another record and like those people who were so gung ho about you, the gatekeepers or whatever, maybe they're like overwhelmed with the amount of records or they just don't like your new record and all of a sudden they like, don't respond to your email or don't pay attention.
And I take it so personally, I'm like, And I realize, oh, it's because I took the positive so personally too that I'm like, wait, but I thought you love me.
Like,
[00:15:17] Joe: right. Yeah,
[00:15:18] Michaela: it's such a hard.
balance when your career is based on being so open mo emotionally to be able to create. But then you have to have some sort of block because you can't take it all in the good or the bad.
You can't let the good things happening fuel you or make you feel like, oh, this is because I'm good, or this is because I'm doing the right thing.
Because then the comedown is even worse. Like you have to kind of build a barrier and be like, I write songs because this is what I feel like I wanna do in life, or what I'm meant to do, or what my purpose is, or whatever.
And you have to be detached from the outside, feels impossible because the outside also determines how much you get to do it publicly. In what way?
[00:16:00] Joe: And how much money you make.
at this point. That's the metric that means the most to me, not because I'm some like super greedy. Dude. I mean, I definitely, I would take as much money as people would give me, but that is the metric by which I get to keep doing this.
And other than that, I'm really not gonna derive my self worth one way or the other from this enterprise,
[00:16:17] Michaela: yeah. That's amazing. did you have to go through a process to get to that place, or did it just happen? Did it evolve? Did you have to like, focus on that
[00:16:25] Joe: I just grew up. I, I, I don't know. I think, basically it's the idea as you get older, you realize that it's not that people think good or ill of you, it's just that people aren't thinking about you at all. It has nothing to do with you. They're thinking about their own little business, if they're running or.
their own, little artistic project or what they have to get done for their family. And they're really thinking about you until they need you to do something for them. And that's fine. That's how we all are. it's no big deal. So, I don't think that change in me had anything to do necessarily with an artistic side or a creative side, I think is just more generally maturing grow.
[00:16:53] Aaron: Yeah. I know a lot of artists that, are almost allergic to. Saying something like you just said, where, amount of money I make is important because it's almost like they Don't want to come across greedy or some other
kind of insecurity like that. But at the end of the day, it's like you're
running
[00:17:08] Joe: the business.
Yeah. And if I really cared about money, I'd be in real estate. I, I wouldn't be in the freaking music business if I cared about money. I've been in here for 15 years. Making some bullshit. All right, so if I really, really cared about money, I can go flip houses.
so you don't get to call me greedy because I want to turn a profit with this little business that's not the case. Like you can say that that's my micro choices within this, but my macro. To be an artist for a living. Like, by definition, that proves that money is not the most important thing to me, Exactly. Yeah.
[00:17:38] Aaron: Absolutely. Yeah. Changing for myself changing. My viewpoint of my business and really being like, no, I run a business. which goes in line with, the amount of data that I've been keeping lately. And all that has changed my relationship to social media as well.
I know a lot of people struggle with likes and follows and all of that I see it as an interpretation of a judgment of how good. their art Is, and a reflection of how much people like their art and how much their art is working. And, shifting my viewpoint to be like, I'm running a business.
I then see social media as a marketing tool, which you hear
[00:18:07] Joe: That's all it is. It's
nothing besides that. It's just a
marketing
tool.
[00:18:10] Aaron: yeah. And so all of the likes and all of the follows, Are a reflection of how well my marketing tactics are working and not my art. And so it, purely keeps the numbers about something that is. cold and inconsequential.
just, numbers. Not about my art, not about what I'm creating, but just how well, my business push is working essentially
[00:18:29] Joe: Yeah. To me, that's all it's ever been is like this marketing arm and even artists that are like really good and really creative with the social media stuff. Ultimately, if there is a creative element to the marketing of it's still leading back to like a core.
Product a core thing, which is music. you're not selling your Instagram feed. That has no inherent value itself. I mean, I guess if you're, selling the influence, but that's not what we do. Like influencers, by definition, what they have to sell is their influence because they don't do anything else.
You know what I mean? But if your core product is something else, like visual art or music, then It's just pure marketing and that's all it is.
[00:19:02] Michaela: Yeah.
I have a problem with that because I feel like I've learned that my. tendency is just to not really have boundaries anywhere. on social media, I'm like, I'm a new mom, so now I, I watch a lot of new mom content and I'm like, huh, maybe I should post that stuff.
And I'm like, primarily The people following you on Instagram are because of your music, so they don't need to follow. your now journey with like, mean
Maybe that is part of, it, but I'm just very like personal where When
we had Georgia Aaron was.
Very direct about Hey, we need to have a discussion about how much you put our child on Social media, for all these strangers. And like, I don't want a bunch of strangers in Sweden knowing what our Daughter looks like, and what she had for breakfast. And I was like, Okay. Cuz My tendency would just be to be
like,
yeah,
okay,
this is what
I'm doing today.
And I noticed you don't post about your family at all on your social media. Was that a discussion with Jamie or is that
[00:19:55] Joe: No, I, I mean I guess because I always had just looked at it as, and look, this is no shade on anybody else who does it in a different way. This is just for me. Okay. But for me, I'd always looked at Instagram and social media as marketing, therefore, There was never any question of whether I was gonna put my wife and kids on it, because I'm not going to use my kids as a tool for marketing.
It's never gonna happen for me. Now other people might do that and they might do it because I don't think that's how they look at it. I don't think that they would look at it as if they're like using their family in some way. But to me, because I looked at it solely as a marketing tool, I couldn't look at it in any other way.
If I put my kids or my wife, Other than I was like using them in some way, that I was in some way, like commercially exploiting what should be a pristine and sacred relationship.
[00:20:42] Michaela: Yeah. Because in a way with, social media as a marketing tool, if you look at it as I'm trying to sell myself like. If you Add that.
component to selling your music, that you're also trying to entice fans by showing who you are through social media and like Develop
a brand for yourself, whether that's actually a manufactured
[00:21:00] Joe: brand
[00:21:01] Michaela: just by. Being really transparent on social media, and then you include your family. That's part of the package.
So it is now I'm also selling my children who have no say in this of whether or not they wanna be a part of
[00:21:14] Joe: There's no consent and then I think I would wager. That there will be conversations 15 to 20 years from now where kids are saying, Hey, why'd you do that to me? But again Maybe I'm also wrong and maybe I'm an idiot for not doing it. You know what I mean? And maybe I'm just kind of old school and we're heading into a new, kind of cultural space where it's just expected for people to exist in that digital realm.
And it's expected for kids to be on that. But for. Again, because I conceptualized it solely as a tool for my business, and I never conceptualized it as some extension of myself. I just couldn't imagine putting my kids on it
[00:21:46] Aaron: Yeah. And to touch on that point, another reason why we started this podcast was to demonstrate that there's no one.
Right?
way to exist in this industry and to create a successful career. If your brand is, I'm a family person very outwardly and it is including your kids cool, that's your
[00:22:03] Joe: That's you. Yeah. Yeah. Who's
to say I'm writing here wrong? I
don't know. You know,
I'm, this is just the way I see it and maybe 10 years from 20 years from now, my kids will be like, how come you never posted about me dad?
yeah.
[00:22:15] Michaela: Does that mean you don't love me as much? There's probably gonna be some twisted
[00:22:19] Joe: I
[00:22:20] Michaela: Yeah. You know, there's, couples
[00:22:21] Joe: around there
[00:22:21] Michaela: fight about that,
[00:22:22] Aaron: little Johnny down. the street already has a blue check mark, and he's only in the sixth
grade.
[00:22:27] Joe: I know, man. Gosh.
[00:22:28] Michaela: And also on the, there's no one way to do this.
I think there's a Stereotype
of what we think artists should be not
organized. Creative types that are spacey and.
Party and whatever. And some people might be like, I never think about that. But I'm someone who I think struggled with that for a long time because I felt inherently at odds with what people said, and a true artist was because it didn't feel like, me.
and I still sometimes feel this way of like, oh, am I not an artist? Because I don't like to stay up all night And jam. I remember being at a festival one time and it was at Telluride and I was in the songwriting contest and one of the people that worked for Telluride was like, showing me where the camp was.
And they were like, and that's where everybody like stays up in Jams. And I was like, oh Yeah I'm not gonna do that. And he was like, how are you even a musician? And I remember being like,
[00:23:18] Joe: mm-hmm.
[00:23:19] Michaela: Cause I play music, but, but I don't wanna.
stay next to a campfire and play my guitar and sing all night long cuz I'm
gonna feel sick and not have a voice tomorrow.
And that's just not the way that I play music.
But at the time I remember thinking like, oh. I guess I'm kind of a fraud cuz that's not what I wanna do or I guess I.
need to figure out how to do that.
And I've never wanted to really do that.
[00:23:40] Joe: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to remember with stuff like that when people say super passive aggressive stuff like that, or that's just, aggressive, aggressive when someone would say something like that, it's like, would you ever in a million years say that to somebody?
Especially somebody that you didn't know? It's like, no, you'd never say that because it's a really kind of bitter thing to say. And like also, who is that guy showing you around? It's
Yeah, he
[00:24:02] Michaela: is. He wasn't a musician. He works. yeah, he was,
[00:24:05] Aaron: he, He like ran the gondola. in the
winter and then like needed a summer gig to stick
[00:24:09] Joe: yeah. No. So it's you gotta really consider the source, I guess.
[00:24:12] Aaron: Yeah. I really liked what you said. he was like, how are you even a musician? You're like, I don't know. I play music like that. that's, it. Period. I play music. I'm here to Play music.
[00:24:21] Michaela: Yeah. But I feel like I've now turned the corner on like the, age where all of a sudden you feel a little older. Than like the 20 year olds.
I went to a show recently a musician who's in their twenties and like they were, you know, all going to the bar after like very excitedly. And I was like, no, I'm not too bad. I'm going Like, they were like, oh, let's go to Dino's after. And I'm like, cool. No, I'm going home to go
to bed. this isn't to say that you shouldn't do this or this isn't something that you just do in your twenties, but like the idea that that's what you're supposed to do, like you're supposed to hang And I was talking to Erin about like, cuz We're interviewing you today and the milk carton kids, and I've toured with both of you, and I'm like, there's no hang, on those tours.
Like The show ends. and Everybody leaves on your tours as well as with the milk carton kids. Like The hang that we.
had with the milk carton kids was, we went to the aquarium altogether uh, one morning with our daughter nine 30 in the morning. Like, yeah. But that's evolved also.
it's more conducive to sustaining yourself on tour and.
the best performance that you can give when you take care of yourself. and you sleep. How has that evolved? for you over, time?
[00:25:28] Joe: That's an ever-evolving thing because I, I do like to have fun. I don't work in a bank, I like to mix it up a little bit, but I can't really mix it up and have fun on the road because I gotta get the shows done.
I also run a really tight ship. 15 years. I've never really had a tour manager and so I, all the driving myself, all that stuff. So it's like, at this point, one of my great fears in life is waking up very hungover and having to drive six hours to Kansas City and play a gig.
It's like the driving and like the work part of it. So that kind of fear of pain, That is a more effective tool to govern my behavior than being like no, no, no, Joe, you shouldn't do that. You should be good. that probably won't work with me. But the thought of not being able to play a show or the thought of injury in myself in some way really keeps me honest for the most part.
[00:26:16] Aaron: Yeah. That definitely works.
for me as well. Having a really energetic toddler that just wakes up at a hundred percent I think about Tomorrow. Aaron, often, I'm like,
[00:26:27] Joe: Yeah.
[00:26:27] Aaron: that's, that's not gonna work.
[00:26:29] Joe: Hundred percent. you can stay up as late as you want. As a parent, you can, but you're gonna be getting up at the same time. Just cuz you stayed up till one 30 doesn't mean you can sleep into nine 30.
[00:26:37] Aaron: I tell people that a lot because the majority of. our community here in Nashville, Don't have children, So when I, do make it out to a show that I'm not playing here in town, they're like, Hey, you wanna go here? I'm like, they're like, Oh, you have to go home, Right? your kid's in bed. And I'm like I don't have to. I could stay out until the sunrise. I can stay out as late as I want, but I'm gonna get up at five 30. So I'm gonna go to bed. Cuz that's early. By the time You wake up, I'm gonna be on lunchtime, I'm gonna,
[00:27:00] Joe: yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:02] Michaela: One of the things I've often been curious about for you, you guys live in your hometown.
but you didn't always you lived in Austin for a while and Chicago before that, but especially Austin, being a music town, we've only ever lived in music towns. Mm-hmm. We lived in New York City for a long time, and then Nashville and it's always felt like this oh,
we have to live. in music towns Primarily, probably because of Aaron being a side person. But
did that impact your. Relationship to your career, also, your identity, removing yourself from a scene where you're in It every day
[00:27:36] Joe: it would be better for me to live in Nashville, I'll be completely honest with you. And all things being equal. If I didn't have certain not only like immediate family obligations, but larger family obligations we have a lot of family, you know, besides just our nuclear family here where we live in Maryland.
All things being equal, if I didn't have those things to do, I'd be in. Right now you can zoom meeting all you want and you can see people on the road and that's cool. But, being geographically close to be able to be like, Hey do you wanna get together next Tuesday and write, I'll just drive over to your, do you wanna do it tomorrow?
What are you doing tomorrow? You wanna get together and write that stuff? It makes a difference. And then the whole business apparatus is there as well. I don't know, if you're looking to sign a publishing deal might be a good thing if while you're. Dinner at Five Points.
If you run into someone who runs a publishing house and you mentioned them I'm shopping for a deal right now and, so it's fine that we live where we live it is very meaningful to, my kids go to the school where my wife, her alma mater and, and stuff like that. So that is meaningful.
But I'm not gonna lie, like from the business end, it would be much better for me to be in, in Nashville right now.
[00:28:37] Michaela: Do you think you'll always stay in Maryland or do you think about.
[00:28:41] Joe: Probably, I mean, like the family and the extended family thing it's real. And it's not going anywhere. And so that's a choice I'm making and I have to remind myself sometimes when things don't move as fast or don't move at all. It's like, well, yeah, man. Like, it's a pretty tough choice to live, a four hour Southwest flight away from where the entire business is.
You know what I mean? And that is what it is. And you have to accept the ramifications of that.
[00:29:02] Michaela: Yeah. At the same time, I will say living in the mix. Can also feel overwhelming. Mm-hmm. And
I think stifling when everyone you are close friends with is doing the same thing and Every single person is a creative.
a songwriter, a producer, whatever, one, it can start to feel.
Stale because you're like, man, I'd love to talk about something else. Like I'd love to have friends who do something else and we can learn about something else. And two, It can start to feel
like,
what do I need to contribute? everyone's so amazing.
and this is what I is right in front of me constantly.
where do I fit in this? am I needed?
Which sometimes I think if you live. Elsewhere, and you're not among a million musicians, you might be like, not questioning so often where you land in at all.
[00:29:52] Joe: That makes sense.
[00:29:53] Aaron: I mean, It's amazing that the music community is so large here and such a large percentage of the people that live in this town. You know, the thing that makes it Music city to me is, two musicians, we can go and, apply for a mortgage and, be like, oh, we're working. musicians.
And our lender can be like, oh,
[00:30:08] Joe: Oh, you
have a
[00:30:08] Aaron: deal. Yeah. Okay,
cool. And they understand what that means. And, you know, That's what makes it music, city. but then the other side of
that, coin, it's like Michaela saying like, everybody being It basically is just a 24 hour business conference. Our experience in New York where you have,
World class actors and dancers and all of these people making
other
forms of art. The conversations where
you can
relate is
on creativity.
where in, being all just musicians here and in A pretty narrow genre. band, song adjacent. I mean, there's, hip hop here, there's, stadium Rock here and all that. But like, generally across the board, it's all based in songs and writing songs and all of that. But it just basically lends to like, oh, well what's working for you?
Well, what's working for you? Oh what's the numbers on this? There's.
the time and a place for that, which is great, and it's a great way to share ideas. But when that's all you have all the time, it's kind of like constantly. a, At a conference
[00:30:57] Joe: it's like the music equivalent of version. Uh, Johnny Fritz used to have that joke in LA when you would meet people, the first question you ask is, Hey, I'm Joe, what's your diet?
You know?
[00:31:06] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:31:07] Joe: the music business version of that.
[00:31:08] Michaela: Yeah.
now it's like, Hey, Who's your agent? And oh, Do you have a deal or are you independent? What's going on? That being said, we don't get out as often as we used to, so maybe it's different. Maybe we just were in the wrong circles.
[00:31:21] Aaron: Yeah.
no there's, obviously to it than that, and I'll be the first one to tell you I think both of us really subscribe to the grass. is always greener there's not a week that goes by that we're not looking at Redfin or Zillow at houses and who knows where oh, maybe we can move here.
[00:31:35] Michaela: Imagining a different life.
[00:31:36] Joe: City. Yeah. There you go.
[00:31:39] Michaela: Yeah. Have you ever gone through a stretch, of time where you have been blocked creatively where you're stuck, where you can.
[00:31:47] Joe: No. Do
anything? No. I, I've definitely gone through stretches where the stuff I write and produce is not good. And I've definitely gone through stretches where, Because of other obligations in music, like touring a bunch or other obligations with family, like having very young kids where I haven't had the opportunity to write.
But no, I've, I've never really had what anyone would describe as writer's block. But again, maybe some people experience writer's block. They'd be producing stuff that's really bad, and they would just be like, what's the point in this? I'm gonna stop doing it. Which again, like I've, had very, not fruitful periods, but nothing that I would describe as I sit down and I'm just like I
got nothing.
Yeah. that's never really happened to me.
[00:32:25] Aaron: So when you're having, not fruitful periods, You just keep pushing through that mud.
[00:32:31] Joe: Yeah, I do like to have several songs that I'm working on at a time. And the moment that I feel any amount of resistance working on something, I just drop it immediately and I move to another song. is very rare that I will just sit there and for like a period of half hour, two hours, push the boulder up a hill of something that's not working.
If I'm really close on a song that I think is really good there's just the third verse lyric needs to be finished and then the song will just be done. I'll do it like I'll force myself to do that just to get it done, but in general, I'll sit down to work and I will work on a song that is fun for me to work on and that I'm having a good time and that I can immediately get into a flow state on.
And the moment that flow state is not happening either immediately or after a half hour or an hour, just quit immediately and I Go to another piece.
[00:33:14] Michaela: Do you have,
like A disciplined writing routine, or is it just whenever you have
[00:33:18] Joe: Whenever I have the opportunity, if the kids went sick and they're in school and obviously I have a lot of other obligations when I'm home. Like, The podcast, we're in my merchandise office here. Hey, look at that.
So I fulfill all the merchandise. So, I got a couple hours of work to do every day with just stuff like that.
generally though I will start the day, by, working for three or four hours writing songs or recording songs and then that's about all I'm good for. I, I really don't do more than four hours of creative work on any given day, like
Mm-hmm.
[00:33:47] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
I mean,
That's pretty good.
[00:33:50] Aaron: That's
a concept I've been thinking a lot about lately not just sitting around and waiting for the muse to hit, you know, like Creating the, situation and the head space. to Be able to be creative and be productive when you do sit down. to write, but knowing.
When to Pull that.
plug and either shift to working on something else or just go and, say my, writing session for the day is, done. because I'm somebody that struggles with just Going all in, and like Looney Tunes like running, right? off the cliff, Going full in and realizing there's no ground below me.
And then crashing,
[00:34:20] Joe: Yeah. I can see how that would happen. You know, I suppose if I didn't have a family, I'd work a little bit more. But I do, and maybe when the kids are older, I'll have a chance to work a little bit more.
But right now, four hours a day, five days a week, pretty much suits me. I don't have to produce a, ton of music, that kind of pace will keep me at a release every 18 months, which is about what I wanna do.
Record.
[00:34:40] Aaron: stuff,
[00:34:40] Joe: I do. Yeah. That's been a big switch.
I've been doing that for a long time. And it's been stuff that I've started to release in the last three to four years. And I've gotten pretty, I've gotten pretty nifty with the recording stuff. I'm pretty good at it now. I'd say,
[00:34:53] Aaron: Do you. Find that you record and produce a lot of stuff that you end up not releasing? Or is it pretty much like once you step into that production zone, do you kind of know,
that this is a song that you are going to wanna
[00:35:06] Joe: There's a lot of stuff that gets recorded that doesn't get released, but there's not a lot of unreleased stuff that gets like too far down the pike. so I'll record something early on and then again, if it's not working, I just abandon it immediately and then I don't contribute a lot of time and energy and money into recording a song unless the early returns are showing me like, this is gonna be good. if that's the case, I'll sit down and I'll work on one song, the recording and writing of it for, two or three weeks, you know what I mean?
Now again, it's two or three weeks of four hour sessions, five days a week, I don't know how many hours that amounts to, but. Once I find something that I think is promising, I'll spend as long as it takes to get it. And if I think that something isn't promising I mean, I just can't drop it quick enough.
I have no time for things I don't think are gonna be compelling.
[00:35:51] Aaron: things that you do drop Do you have a process of going back to them later, you know, if it's like, say the song is great and maybe just your original conception of it do you then go back later on
[00:36:01] Joe: Yeah. I, I upload a lot of that stuff to Dropbox and then, if I have a week coming up and there's not a song, I'm gonna be working on it, I don't have any ideas, you know that Sunday night when the family is down, I will. Pour myself a fermented beverage and put the earbuds in and just go through those demos there's always some kernel of something that I can go work on the next day.
Every single time there's something there.
[00:36:21] Michaela: It seems like your life, your creativity and your business is like very disciplined and organized. Is that a correct perception?
[00:36:32] Joe: Yeah. I'd say more than most probably, this is like the main thing that I do. I don't have like other hobbies, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not into like collecting things. I'm not into fishing. I'm not into. Hunting. I don't bowl, this is what interests me, the most.
And given my druthers, I would rather just be doing this.
[00:36:49] Aaron: Yeah. Do you find that structure frees up your creativity, or is it more just necessity based?
[00:36:55] Joe: I guess it's just necessity based and it's just intuition based. I tend to gravitate towards, what is pleasurable for me and what is interesting. And I, pay very close attention to what I'm interested in. so for example, like with the recording thing, I got interested in recording seven or eight years ago.
It's interesting to me. I wanna watch YouTube videos on this at night. I had to mix how to mic something like email. I'm gonna follow my interest there. And that usually, leads me to stuff. It used to be, I was interested only in poetry, like early on. So I learned a lot about how to put words together.
Then it was recording, then guitar playing. So I just tend. Pay very close attention to what I'm interested in and then do only what I'm interested in and do nothing that's not interesting to me. Obviously I have to do a lot of stuff on the business end. That's not interesting to me, but that is to support the creative part.
In the creative part. I only do things that are very interesting to me. To me, I'm not saying that they're interesting to other
people and, and, and very often they're not interesting to other people.
[00:37:47] Michaela: Yeah, no. I mean, Erin can sit and watch YouTube videos all day about mixing and recording and
like you start talking to me about cables and I'm like, I'm out.
I'm done. I'll never do it.
[00:37:57] Joe: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:58] Aaron: Yeah.
I like to say that Mikayla finally understood the gear bug. When we had a kid and she got into like baby gear, she's like, oh, check this out.
I'm like, ah, See, now you get it. Now you get the bug. I have
[00:38:08] Michaela: spreadsheets of
like car seats but amps and stuff. I'm like, just gimme an acoustic guitar.
I don't wanna deal with it.
[00:38:14] Joe: yeah. And Aaron's just like, just give me a pacifier and uh, and, uh,
[00:38:18] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:38:18] Joe: diaper and some wipes. I'm good
[00:38:19] Aaron: Yeah. No,
[00:38:20] the-other-22-hours-p_joe-aaron_aaron_shafer_haiss-bxw86gt63_2023-feb-07-1454pm-utc-riverside: I
[00:38:20] Michaela: have to,
say he's, there's some crazy baby gear out there. He's been impressed with
[00:38:25] Aaron: the I'm
a sucker for a
good design, like a great,
Aesthetically, pleasing, but like very functional design. It doesn't matter
what
it
is.
I'm into it.
[00:38:33] Joe: Yeah, that's a big market, the baby gear thing, man. Yeah,
[00:38:36] Aaron: Man. yeah. We're in the wrong, industry. talk about, being in it for the money,
man.
[00:38:40] Joe: know. I know.
[00:38:41] Michaela: So started.
self-managing about a year or so ago. Did that have any impact on Headspace, that it started to take up?
And, having to separate your time into even more so of like handling more business stuff for yourself I know from just talking to you personally that I think it's been a pretty positive experience for you
[00:38:59] Joe: I don't mind managing myself. That might change in the next little while, but I've, managed myself for two years. I don't mind doing it. some artists. Do mind it though. And I, get that. I think that It's not a great look to have to like, negotiate things yourself all the time.
And I probably have missed a few opportunities When you tell people you don't have a manager in the music business the reaction can be like, oh are you quitting? What do you mean you don't, you know what I mean? Like, are, do you actually have a business that you're running?
What are you doing here? And so there is a little bit of um, I would say almost understandable stigma about it. It seems like kind of unseemly to see an artist negotiate things on their behalf, But it's worked for me for the last couple years. I don't know if it'll always remain that way,
[00:39:35] Michaela: Oh, that's good. I do think there's so many people, working or trying to work in this business, so having kind of filters of okay this person has an agent, or this person has a manager. So it's like vouching for them.
[00:39:47] Joe: Yeah,
[00:39:47] Michaela: So it can filter people out.
At the same time though, there's nothing wrong with handling a lot of stuff yourself and giving away pieces of the pie that you could be benefiting from. Keeping
For yourself
[00:39:59] Aaron: Yeah.
again, I think it, it relates down to you're running a business and your time commitment to taking on the responsibilities of managing yourself if what you would spend on a manager, the 15, 20%, if you're able to do that yourself at more value to your business and. and you find it easy or relatively painless. Why not go ahead and do that?
[00:40:20] Joe: it's worked for me for the last couple years but I, I think The need for that is gonna vary from artist to artist, and it's gonna vary from time to time in their career. that's a very personal decision as to whether to have that or not.
I, I understand both sides of it.
[00:40:32] Michaela: Yeah, I think and I don't know if these are like secrets that we're not supposed to share, but I'm pretty sure like Jeff Tweedy now manages himself and I would imagine maybe when you're at a certain age or level that either you're like, no, I don't wanna deal with anything. Or you're like, I know myself and my, business the best, so I should be the one representing.
[00:40:51] Joe: Well, hell man, Jeff Tweedy can do it, I can
do it. What the hell? He's got a huge thing. I just cut my little, my little Podunk operation, you Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:01] Michaela: Do You have. just based with the Topic of caring for yourself to try. and Make sure that you can sustain a long-term career, do you have any. Thing that you don't think.
we covered that would be vital or helpful to people listening, other musicians who might be struggling with this, or young musicians who might wanna learn some lessons, you know, without having to learn them the hard way what you found helpful as you've evolved.
[00:41:23] Joe: I would just say that I don't conceptualize any of that as caring for myself to the degree that my actions are able to take care of myself it's because I conceptualize it as. Taking care of the people in my life that are close to me, my family and my friends, and my neighbors and the people who are in a hyper-local way, very connected to me and I conceptualize it on my better days of not being selfish and trying to be attentive to their needs and trying to be useful to the people around me in my life that I care about.
And whenever I'm focused on. that Rather than focused on myself or focused on the narrow interests of my career or something like that, I tend to. be Taken care of you, you know what I mean? Like, like there, like, like the natural fruit of that is that you're okay for the most part, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and to the degree that I, focus on myself and professional aspirations I tend to not do that well.
It, tends to lead me to a pretty negative place pretty quickly. So, Yeah. To me, self-care is a word that gets thrown around a lot these days, and for me. It's better to conceptualize it as taking care of the people that are around you, being attentive to their needs.
and then the rest will fall into
place
[00:42:30] Michaela: Yeah, I think there's this challenging balance and understanding the difference between selfishness and selflessness and When you are caring for yourself, because it's ultimately caring for others. It's not selfishly taking time for yourself or whatever the things are, it's like a mind fuck for me, but like really when you are in service to others and wanting to be Your best self.
for others it feed.
That so much more than if you're just like, I need to get things, or I need to be better for myself. It's really a, precarious relationship. of others first and therefore
being
your best self.
[00:43:07] Joe: Yeah, I mean at, at the very end of Dante's Inferno, when they get to the seventh circle of hell and they find the devil there, the devil isn't this guy with fire who is paying attention to them. The devil is encased in ice and he's focused on himself and he doesn't even notice Dante the Observer down there because he's so inwardly focused on himself.
And I think that, that is a work of literature that gives us like, a Pretty big spiritual truth, which is if you wanna put yourself in hell focus on yourself as much as possible, as much as you can focus on you and yourself. that is the fastest way to put yourself into the farthest pit of hell immediately.
And the thing is, like when you think about that for even half a second you immediately recognize how true it is. Because all the times in your life that have been, the most unfulfilling have been those times. Paid attention to yourself and completely abandoned your responsibility to the other people in your life,
[00:43:57] Aaron: and it turns into a feedback loop very quickly.
Yeah.
[00:44:00] Michaela: Well,
Thank
you
so much
[00:44:02] Joe: Thanks for having me on. Very happy to be one of the first guests on your show.
.
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