John Doe is the co-founder and longtime member of the legendary LA punk band X, he's released numerous solo records, he stars in the recently released film DOA, as well as movies such as Boogie Nights, Roadhouse, Great Balls of Fire, and Brokedown Palace and TV shows such as Roswell, One Tree Hill and Law & Order, and is co-author of the book 'Under the Big Black Sun' with Tom DeSavia, chronicling the LA punk scene. Needless to say we talk about sustaining and foster a diverse set of creative endeavors, identifying ones own ego to make for smoother relationships, embracing your role as a creator and sticking to it, the creative pitfalls of major label deals, longevity, and quite a bit more.
John Doe is the co-founder and longtime member of the legendary LA punk band X, he's released numerous solo records, he stars in the recently released film DOA, as well as movies such as Boogie Nights, Roadhouse, Great Balls of Fire, and Brokedown Palace and TV shows such as Roswell, One Tree Hill and Law & Order, and is co-author of the book 'Under the Big Black Sun' with Tom DeSavia, chronicling the LA punk scene. Needless to say we talk about sustaining and foster a diverse set of creative endeavors, identifying ones own ego to make for smoother relationships, embracing your role as a creator and sticking to it, the creative pitfalls of major label deals, longevity, and quite a bit more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is still relatively new, thank you so much for checking us out.
If it's your first time, thank you for taking a chance. If you're a return listener, thank you so much for being here
[00:00:17] Aaron: again. Yeah. If you are a returning listener, you've heard this spiel before. But we just have a simple ask, if you like this show, pass it along to somebody else that might like it too. Chancellor, you heard about it word of mouth, and that's the best way that I like to hear about things, when a friend vouches for it.
So if you would just please take a second and pass your favorite episode of our show along to a friend, or maybe to everybody that follows you on social media, it's the best way for us to get more listeners, and it's the best way for us to continue having these conversations.
[00:00:46] Michaela: Yeah, and we're not your typical promo show. We're not music journalists. We are not trying to promote artists latest record or their latest tour. We like to talk to artists about the in between times, the times that they're not on stage and what they do behind the scenes to stay grounded, stay inspired, and sane while building a career around their art.
[00:01:10] Aaron: Yeah, and as we all know, there's so much in this industry, the music industry, the creative industries in general, that is outside of our control. And so we like to ask our guests the general question, what do you do to create sustainability in your lives so that you can sustain your creativity? And we get to have great conversations with people on this show that have been doing it for, Long time.
Long time. Sometimes it's, 8 years. Sometimes It is... Forty. Forty plus years. Fifty. Fifty years. Yeah. Decades. today's guest is just one of those people. Today's guest is John Doe from the legendary L. A. punk band
[00:01:50] Michaela: X. And John's longevity is so cool, not just that he has sustained a band for over 30 years.
, he's put out solo records, he's had another band called The Knitters, he has written books, he's a poet, and that has He's given poetry workshops. He's an actor with countless credits in movies and TV shows like Roswell and One Tree Hill and Broke Down Palace, Law and Order, Roadhouse, Great Balls of Fire and Boogie Nights and countless others.
It was overwhelming when I was researching John's. Life
[00:02:26] Aaron: and work. Yeah a cool thing I learned from all the research is that it was his version of I will always love you that's playing on the jukebox in The bodyguard when they're dancing together, which is just a cool little tidbit that we didn't talk about at all in this episode But there it is.
That's true It was one of those episodes where we wish we could have just said, okay, John, start talking and just listened for an hour. It was also one
[00:02:47] Michaela: of those episodes that I felt hyper, because I had so many questions. Maybe you felt that from me, but I, did I do an okay job of playing it cool, but I had so many questions.
I was like, and then, and how did you, and what did you, because he has done so much and he was really funny, really generous, really kind and just, I really enjoyed this conversation.
[00:03:07] Aaron: he's one of those people that you can listen to talk and you just absorb so much. There's a lot of, patience, a lot of simplicity. I think if I had to pick a word that would sum up our conversation, it's simplicity in why we create art and what art we create and how we approach everything. I'd ask questions and... A lot of times this answer, I would just be like, Oh yeah duh, of course, that's how it works.
[00:03:28] Michaela: I think there's a reoccurring theme of same with last week's episode with Madam Gandhi of does it bring you joy? Do you like to do it? Then just keep doing it.
[00:03:37] Aaron: Yep. Exactly that. And we share with publicists and with the public that we are the anti album cycle podcast, and to be completely transparent.
John's publicist let us know about this movie that he is currently doing interview cycles for that We really didn't talk about until yeah, it's called DOA. It's a really cool movie. really beautifully shot in black and white There's a really amazing. Yeah, we don't talk much about it, but you hear mentioned a few times and the link to that movie as well as books that he has written are all in the show notes as usual, right below this episode or at theother22hours.
com slash episodes. But enough of us talking, without further ado, here is our wonderful conversation with John Doe.
thanks for taking time away to sit with us for a little
[00:04:20] Michaela: bit. you were just at Hardly Strictly, right?
[00:04:22] John: Yes. And I have a couple other shows, one tomorrow and the next day and I'm going home.
[00:04:27] Aaron: Awesome. Where is home these days?
[00:04:29] John: Austin, Texas.
[00:04:30] Aaron: Cool.
[00:04:31] John: Okay.
Yeah. Been there about seven years.
[00:04:33] Aaron: we love. Having people like yourself that have been able to do this for decades especially being as prolific as you are with all your creativity.
we're honored to have you here for taking the
[00:04:43] Michaela: I was doing the research about you and holy shit it's a very long list of a lot of different stuff which is so exciting. I love talking to artists who have a lot of different interests beyond just one band or one, solo career.
a lot of the interviews I saw with you start out with I've never really had a plan.
I just started doing music because it felt like a calling. And I've wondered, has that sustained you or did there come a time in your life where you started to think, okay, maybe I need to have some intention or plan with my artistic work and career. Or have you let that kind of spirit sustain you and guide you?
[00:05:24] John: well I had a vision when I moved to Los Angeles.
I envisioned being on stage with, The venues like the whiskey and the, Starwood and things like that. I thought, Oh, I can do that. And I can see that.
There's a difference between having a plan and being calculated. I've ever done has been like a calculated, PowerPoint
Kind of, plan.
Yeah. Once, once you start. Once you start a project then you got to have a plan on how you're going to get there, but it's not that hard for me to access the creative part, but it is, a tap that I turn on once there's something started, then I'll just have a bit of a switch and routine and what the day is going to be like.
And I just. Yeah. Whatever creativity there is towards that thing. So yeah, I w I would say that there's still nothing that's calculated or premeditated about how we're going to get the big dollars. Cause I know that that's not really going to happen
And that's good. That's a relief
Mm To be playing in the, big game.
I know have friends that are in the. very popular bands, really famous bands, it seems just fucking exhausting to
hmm. Yeah.
It's like, you've got, there 50 people in the crew and crap like that, and it's like, oh my god, that's way too much pressure than I want to do, And some of them hold it very lightly, which is amazing, and wonderful.
But yeah it's a relief that we just do our thing and there are enough people that, that seem to like that, encourage that. So
[00:06:52] Michaela: Can you talk about what you said that when you do point your creativity in a direction that there's a certain way your day goes? Can you share what that is? Is that also like just a feeling that happens or is there, okay, today I'm going to write songs and so I have to treat myself this way?
[00:07:08] John: I'm unfortunately not that disciplined.
[00:07:10] Michaela: Mm hmm.
[00:07:12] John: I, I was a little bit in, writing when I worked on those punk rock books, but it's just more like dreaming and just your mind being a little more uh, Wandering a lot more and also looking through what you've been writing, the books that you've been writing in prior to that, and seeing if there's a theme, seeing if there's things that fit together.
my experience has been that, you'll write something that is similar to something else. Cause you know, it's all within the same time period. whatever uh, images and things somehow fit together so you can combine things and then it, it makes a little broader story or subject matter.
but it's more just turning on a tap letting your mind be a little freer and not logical and just. Whatever.
Yeah. Yeah.
and it is dreaming whether it's, you know, like with DOA, it was like, you have to develop a story and I didn't take serious acting classes, but I tried to figure it out so I wouldn't embarrass myself when I had the opportunity to do stuff.
So it was just figuring out who was this guy, who's this Frank Bigelow guy. How does he fit into the post World War II world that he lives in? And people were fearless because they'd just gone through a world war.
But letting that, what I'm saying, dreaming, let it just be open and see what you come up with.
[00:08:29] Aaron: Yeah, creating this space for your creativity to come out, in a way.
[00:08:34] John: Yeah. Just being open, letting it wander. Going outside. I like being outside.
[00:08:40] Michaela: right now you just mentioned the film that you're currently working on that's coming out, and... you have a long list of things that you've done with X, with your solo projects, with writing books, with writing poetry, if you don't have a deadline for a specific project, an acting gig, are you setting out during the day of, okay, I'm going to be creative today and maybe some songs that will be my solo record come through or maybe, or I'm going to specifically write for X, is there any of that going on for you?
[00:09:09] John: sure. With the last couple of records with X it's been, I hate using the word intentional because it's like such a buzzword. But, Yeah, it's time to do that, so Put on that hat I've been relying on, on Exene's lyrics a lot for both of these records.
We're working on a new record right now.
cause I, I can't just do anything for that. It's got a certain style and a certain speed and a certain intensity. if I brought in some love songs like I might do for my solo career, they would,
hmm. Mm. Nope.
yeah,
Yeah. I don't think it would go over that well.
So
[00:09:44] Michaela: there is um, for lack of a better term, intention or direction.
[00:09:48] John: absolutely. but do I tell myself today I will be creative? No, because I just am. And after doing it for so long, I don't think about it. I don't worry about it. I know that it's there I'll write down stuff when I hear it.
And then those things either have the um, meter or the, rhythm of a song, or they're wander more, and so they're a poem.
I have been put on a deadline because I have poetry meeting with some old friends from Baltimore once a month. So I have to come up with something once a month. I
Oh,
[00:10:22] Aaron: cool. Yeah.
[00:10:22] John: come up with a poem.
[00:10:23] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:10:24] John: shit. And you write stuff, but you never, a lot of times you don't finish it,
Mm Sure that it has a beginning, a middle and an end or it has some impact it doesn't have to have a point or a story.
It just has to be something.
you might write down a bunch of raw material, but you don't actually finish it off when you have to. Go on a zoom call with your friends. Got to bring something.
[00:10:46] Aaron: Yeah. the excitement and the joy in starting something is really accessible to me, then the work comes and you're like, oh,
[00:10:53] John: I've really come to love the, articles, whether it's to, or with, or between, or beside, things that, The smallest word can change how those people relate to their environment, or where they're going, or how they're doing it, or kind of fun to, once the song is taking shape, or a poem is taking shape, really cut away the unnecessary stuff.
[00:11:18] Michaela: Yeah. That can be challenging of like how to look at your own work objectively and not have emotional attachment to everything you put on the page what serves this song or poem and what am I just like holding onto, because I liked Those couple words I strung together. Maybe they'll be used for a different song or poem that's coming
[00:11:39] John: it can be hard. Yeah, absolutely. Cutting away things that you love, but it doesn't work with the strongest part of the stuff that there's a little piece there, but it's like, yeah, but it doesn't, it's distracting.
It isn't really as good as the rest of it. So
cut it out. I've done that a lot with the music Uh, It started with the with the last X record and went on to this last solo record where, if the music chord changes and, or melody or something didn't seem to gel, then I would just say, well, let's all try something else and not get attached to it.
rather than say well, that's the way it goes. That's the way I wrote it. That's just your ego. Saying whatever you do is good, you should, hold on to it, and just make it work. It's like, no, just change it. Put a whole bunch of different chords there. Or take out some of them and have half of the ones that you, that you wrote down.
[00:12:28] Aaron: Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot lately where is my attachment to What I actually wrote and what I actually created or is my attachment to the feeling that I felt when I wrote that thing. live in Nashville. There's a lot of co writing that happens here.
So, you know, maybe I came up with a line that really broke that awkward silence or that kind of like impasse where we're both our brains are steaming trying to finish this verse I have a sentence that's like, ah, and it sparks this thing. And, you know, so there's this relief and there's this excitement.
They're like, Hey, the things are moving again. I find that I'll be like really attached to that line. It might not necessarily be the best line for that situation. But my ego is attached to that success of hey, I broke this traffic jam, and so having that perspective on is it the line and is it the art that I created?
Or is it just, I'm really proud of myself in that
[00:13:15] John: Or
[00:13:15] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:13:16] John: do you just want to win?
[00:13:17] Aaron: Exactly. that.
[00:13:20] Michaela: I would imagine you can't successfully be a part of a band for 30 years if you had that mentality cause
[00:13:27] John: Oh, sure you can.
Okay.
This is very, this is very recent. It may have made the process, the, this later songwriting process easier, but
Okay.
on to that. I hung on to that forever. It was like, no, that's the way it goes. Don't you know anything? Make it right. Find a better drumbeat.
I don't care. just bullshit.
[00:13:46] Michaela: Wow. I'm impressed then. Your bandmates just conceited. You not that they are conceded, but that they conceded to your Yeah, yeah,
[00:13:53] John: Oh,
yeah. it just created a lot of unnecessary tension and unnecessary. Yeah, it was just made it all that much harder. And then eventually you would get through that and you might find your way and so forth. And, or the song would just be, yeah, it's all right, but you don't play it live.
hmm. Yeah, that's the, one of the weaker songs on the record and you just have to live with that.
[00:14:16] Michaela: did that just naturally go away for you over time? Or did, was there anything that happened that you were like, maybe I should let go of this? Or did you just notice you started to let go of that?
[00:14:26] John: Oh no, it was my current wife partner for the last 15 years. Just, us being enough in love or so much in love that, when she would call me on my bullshit, I would defend myself and fight back and be a jerk and then finally say well, I guess you're right. Okay. And then realizing, don't know that I actually understood what ego was until maybe five or how it applied to me.
Yeah.
I knew what someone with a big ego was like, but I I don't think I, I fully realized how it related to me, no, I just want to explain myself, there's another thing when you start seeing those. words repeat themselves when you're in a relationship and you're trying to well, you just don't understand. Here's what I want to tell you. And it's like, no, you're just defending yourself. You're just trying to be right. You're trying to be good. You're trying to be all these things that your ego, tells you that you need when you actually don't, because you don't have to defend yourself.
you can be vulnerable and you can be with your partner. And so I think I applied that to being in a band. Go figure.
[00:15:30] Aaron: absolutely. It's a, I'm still practicing it. Still trying to actually like internalize it and learn it. But I've gotten a glimpse of that, over the last couple of years of like, I don't actually need to fight this fight. I don't need to be right here. And I can just kind of let go, drop my grip.
And things are way smoother and way easier. there's almost this dread, when you step in to defend something or be in this fight or defend an idea, whatever it is, of like the effort that's involved in that, this is hard. This takes a lot of effort.
And when you're kind of like, my ego doesn't need this. It's kind of a relief oh, wow, this is easy.
[00:15:59] Michaela: Yeah, there's a commitment sometimes to and maybe even like a partial addiction of like fight and defend yourself and be right That's what's interesting about partnership, especially long term partnership of how much it can help you grow, when you are open to not just always convincing your partner that your way is the right way.
Like, Oh, maybe the point of partnership is learning and expanding ourselves through seeing intimately how other people live and, operate.
[00:16:28] Aaron: You had mentioned just a little bit earlier that when you're being creative, you have words or lines or cadences that kind of come out and you decipher from there, is this an X song?
Is this a solo song? Is this a poem? Like, is this thing? And I had a kind of chicken and the egg question about that, where did these other creative outlets stem from that experience of come up and trying to find a place for them or as you develop more creative outlets, did that spur more creativity and more of these, ambiguous ideas that could fit into these realms?
[00:17:02] John: Huh. not sure. liked other kinds of music. Yeah. I was interested in other kind of music that didn't seem to fit with X, and so I wanted to find out if I had an opportunity to do that. To use that.
You play in a punk rock band for a certain amount of time, like Say 79 to 86. So seven years, but you play a lot and you make a bunch of records and you write a bunch of songs and then along the way you, you're listening to sun records or you're listening to old, Phil Oaks.
Records or R and B records. You fall in love with Al green and realize how incredible Otis Redding and Carla Thomas were and things like that. And you think there's a bigger, pool out there. So maybe I can jump one of those pools and, Oh, country music actually comes fairly naturally.
I don't sound stupid doing it, which is, I think the reason that some punk rock singers and songwriters move into country or honky tonk music easily because it sounds right. chords are simple, the melodies are simple ish. It's not prog rock.
It's not something that needs. A virtuoso, player. And you can get away with it and it sounds good. Exane and Dave Alvin and I hung around a lot. And then we thought this is fun. Let's just sing songs when we're, at each other's apartment, getting drunk and so forth.
And. And then we did, and then, oh, well, there's somebody that wants a benefit to be done and the three of us can go there without a lot of gear and we can just set up and play and that's fun. So then you have other opportunities and those opportunities allow you to do those things.
So why not take them? And then you realize, oh I could make a solo record and then, oh shit, I've got to be the boss. That sucks. And I don't have, as much of a direction. I don't have as much of a, or you can do anything you want. And it's like, Oh God, what does that mean?
Rather than having your bandmates with some bumper guards saying, no, don't go over there. That's too, no, wait a minute, hold on. And that can be very confusing, but to answer your question more directly as the opportunities presented themselves to me. Or I think to anyone, unless it's just a money grab or, you can do that once or twice just because you need money.
But on the other hand if you have a desire and just want to see and you get that opportunity, I think it's kind of your duty as a creative person to see what happens. if you enjoy it and it fulfills you then that feeling will. Crossover into what your original, creative band or purpose was.
one definitely adds to the other. you, you learn how to take different approaches as you have done different creative.
they require different things from you.
[00:19:43] Aaron: I love hearing that because where we are at and where a lot of our community are at we're approaching 40. And so a lot of, you know, us and a lot of our community are coming to a point of like, we've held on to this one single focus our band or our, artist path.
to varying levels of success, but kind of across the board, people are starting to feel like really unfulfilled. They're getting to that point that it's what do I change? What do I do differently? And so maybe I like to write prose and I'm going to do that, or maybe acting is a thing.
Branching out into other creative aspects, there's a lot of fear of kind of letting off the accelerator on that main project and then like, oh, am I going to spiral out of this? And so I really love hearing, from somebody that has done that, how it really is just a self perpetuating kind of ecosystem in a way.
[00:20:25] John: Yeah. I mean, if you're lucky and I've been, I've been really fortunate. I think that having one focus is important since you've got to establish what you do or who you are creatively. it takes a while to do that and you need help and you stumble through things and then you realize weren't being as true in that moment as you were in other and other things.
But and then you just go, Oh. I tried. Fuck it. It wasn't, it wasn't that good.
[00:20:53] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:20:55] John: kind of knew that as I was going along, but I went through it, what the hell,
[00:20:58] Aaron: Yeah. Now there's proof. are you thinking about something specific that you've tried when you say that?
[00:21:03] John: yeah, there was a song on the fourth X record. And I think, called true love part two, and we were just jamming and fooling around. And like I said, I was in love with Marvin Gaye his thing. And I thought well, yeah. I'll just do that. It's like, no, you
Yeah. Yeah.
you can't just do that.
Sorry. But it was fun. It was a lot of wordplay and it was, really fun.
but we hardly ever played that song live because it was like, oh, this is, yeah, it's not cool.
the audience doesn't react the same way. And you feel like you're not being as.
True to yourself or authentic or something.
[00:21:37] Michaela: Yeah. But you don't know that until you try. That's the, That's the hard part of just like being able to put stuff out there and be like, okay, it didn't land, or it didn't work, and that's okay,
[00:21:47] John: Yeah, it is. the fact that you made the effort and you followed through with it important.
[00:21:51] Michaela: How did you navigate when you started doing solo work as a solo musician, but then also as a, an actor, that kind of like autonomy, but then also, like you said, becoming the sole boss, like where everything kind of starts and ends with you. How did you navigate that? you made some comments that sound like it was like scary at first, but.
[00:22:12] John: I just did the best I could. times I think the X band was. pretty pissed off at me because I, through no fault of my own, I was on this TV show Roswell they wouldn't let you know that you were going to work in an episode until like the week before.
Oh, wow.
And oftentimes I would have to say to them, I can't, we're on tour,
they actually didn't care. They would
hmm.
just, you know, write you out of the episode cause I wasn't that important anyway. But on occasion there would be a conflict like that.
And How did I navigate it? I just would try to put blackout dates and I still try to do that, for personal stuff, not going to work from the 15th of this month until the end of the month because I need time off or I'm going to do something else.
and you know, you have your priorities. And X is my priority and has been.
I think when I was doing solo stuff and getting these opportunities to act, it would be a fight that was bad. Now I'm, X is on shorter time cause we're older.
And so I want to make sure that we give it our all while we can. And then when that goes away or we feel like we've done everything we can then, then it'll maybe spread out again.
[00:23:23] Aaron: when did you realize, blacking out dates, planning personal time, in a way, was important?
[00:23:28] John: like six months
Yeah, yeah, okay, cool.
I'm still working on that.
[00:23:34] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:23:34] John: it's really hard. Cause I think everybody has that fear of Oh my God, what if I never get another job?
[00:23:39] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:23:40] John: Oh my God, what if I can't pay the mortgage or the rent or whatever? I think everybody has that fear, especially if you're an independent producer.
Or sideman, whatever. You have that constantly have that fear.
[00:23:53] Aaron: Yeah, it's something that I only see in the rearview mirror You know where I look up and i'm like wow actually, I was really scared to take four days to myself And that was a huge help. I came back with more energy, or more often than not like, man, I was burnt out.
And it was just like metal on metal grinding for like a month and a half. And that sucked.
[00:24:13] Michaela: Yeah, or even bigger picture things of we're so scared to like start a family because bring a child in the mix and it's a inconvenience like and it keeps you from Being able to do things and that's one of the reasons we like to have these conversations of like how can you?
Live a good life that's also devoted to your art that also builds a healthy career where you also are not destitute and poor the whole time, but a whole healthy human, which I think the rhetoric for a long time has been that artists and musicians are not healthy humans we have rock and roll artists, sex, drugs and rock and roll.
you're supposed to just destroy yourself, and it's not very sexy to talk about blocking off dates on your schedule and having spreadsheets and having a retirement fund. But I've learned, having all those kind of things tucked away and having a good, healthy family and home life does make me feel more creative.
And want to have more purpose in my work hence wanting to have these conversations, especially with people who are still doing it at age 70 still with multiple projects and how you have sustained that and have had a family.
[00:25:25] John: Yes. I was very lucky in that my wife at the time, the mother of my kids was very dedicated and, raising them. And, even though I tried to limit. How much time I was gone. I didn't have that luxury. I didn't have the luxury of taking them with me, which I absolutely would have if I could have, if I had the money.
but I don't, I don't know if that's fair to them. And yeah, I'm really fortunate. how do you guys navigate going on tour or do you, I
[00:25:51] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, we do. a lot of it. don't really tour much anymore. I used to play drums in Michaela's band, and I still will in some of the bigger markets or for festivals and stuff, but, More often than not, I'm on tour just on dad duty. And I, plan my projects ahead of time. I have a little travel rig that I can mix on or, do some basic overdubs and stuff like that.
And I just say I do all the fun parts of touring which is get up early drive do load in and then I go to the hotel at like 6 30 and put our kit, you know, so Doing Yeah,
[00:26:23] Michaela: we've shifted the way that I was doing a lot more full band touring and now I'll take a full band when there's some album release shows or festivals.
We played Hardly Strictly last year we brought our daughter and just had a friend in San Francisco come and hold her while we played. So we do a lot of that stuff. If we did a European tour for three weeks where I just played solo and they came, And she, luckily our child is a great traveler but there's...
We took her
[00:26:51] Aaron: to her first festival at two and a half months old. Yeah.
[00:26:54] John: Oh
[00:26:55] Aaron: So she's been in it, used to being around people and we're lucky that she's like really social and... Loves to fly, loves to be in a
[00:27:01] Michaela: van. Yeah, I think the first festival I had my cousin, who was like 25, come and hold her.
And I was like telling her the exact time to get to the festival because it was also being broadcast. It was Exponential Fest in Philly, and my cousin, Overslept showed up stoned, and I literally like, took my three month old baby and just was like, I have to get on stage! And like, threw, threw the baby at her and ran on stage and started playing. So we, we are figuring it out. Every, every single tour we're, figuring it out and we don't know what it's gonna... Be like it's a case by case. Yeah as she's getting older. It's definitely easier for me to go by myself And not have a drummer
[00:27:44] John: there's always compromises.
[00:27:45] Aaron: luckily I was already headed in a direction of wanting to tour less and wanting to stay in my studio Prior to having a kid prior to the pandemic, so it just kind of all luckily fell in line.
Yeah,
[00:27:56] John: Well, You're fortunate,
[00:27:57] Aaron: I am. Yeah, we are.
[00:27:59] John: fortunate that you can. Having kids isn't, I think for some people it's a real, See change and for others, it's an addition. I think some people pretty self involved, especially artists.
And then when they have kids, they have to split that attention or not sometimes they just don't and the kid suffers. But, yeah, it just, it's a real added value to your heart and then they'll, when they start becoming verbal, then they'll give you great lines that you can write into your song.
[00:28:27] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:28:28] Michaela: it's also fun. going on tour in Europe. with a two year old, people were like, holy shit, how are you doing that?
Because I'm not on a tour bus like, we're renting a car or taking trains and schlepping merchandise and instruments and strollers and it's crazy. But it was honestly like, the most fun I've probably had on tour because you get to see this little child who's obsessed with trains and buses.
It's like, if you're open to it, It's infectious me and I've done the like, staying out late and going to bars and partying and that gets boring after a while for me, and, so,
[00:29:05] John: Yeah.
[00:29:05] Michaela: it's all okay with me. It definitely has times of serious overwhelm of how do you still do this but, yeah, that's why, again, I love these conversations of the nitty gritty of like, how do you keep making art and work over and over again through your life as you have more responsibilities and so like with you, I wanted to ask you because I always want to talk about financial wellness as well and starting in a punk rock band where a lot of the ethos is like anti establishment, anti capitalism, how do you balance That kind of stuff when you do have to operate in a capitalist society.
I also ask this always selfishly because I have issues around capitalism and money, but then I'm like, but I need to make money, but it pisses me off.
[00:29:51] John: I would say that the anti capitalist. element to punk rock came a little later. I think that was more like Fugazi and the DC world. Not that we were, just willing to step on anyone to get ahead because it was very much community.
definitely in Los Angeles, definitely in San Francisco, obviously in New York,
uh, London, et cetera.
So the community was important, but everyone was trying to help everybody else because. You couldn't be just for yourself. needed the help. You needed to borrow amplifiers and PAs and things like that because there was nobody helping you because it was all DIY. So it was definitely DIY. And, learned a lesson when Adamant came to Los Angeles because we were very, socialist, communist. Five dollars is the ticket price. And then Adamant played at the Roxy, I think, which is the step up from the whiskey, and charge 15. and people were just throwing money at the cashier, take my money.
We're like, Hey, fuck you guys. We've been trying to be nice. And just keeping the ticket price low. Cause everybody's a Bohemian and is working a hourly wage. but at that point in Los Angeles, at least the rent was, 150 bucks and you had a roommate, so you had to come up with 75 a month
Uh huh.
for
[00:31:13] Michaela: huh. Uh huh. Ha ha ha ha! Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. It's very different. Uh huh.
[00:31:16] John: So, So that, that was a, that was an eye opener and it's not like we suddenly started charging 15, but we were okay with charging eight. Instead of just five, I think that whole, damning capitalism has been around forever, but it's, taking on a new light because of the obvious disparity between CEOs and, wage earners and, Bernie Sanders is right. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. but I, do believe that it's been intentional to keep people in their place and to dismantle the middle class. And I think it sucks. I'm a little like upper middle class and I'm really grateful that I have those advantages, but I try to do the right thing and conserve, resources as much as I can and give money to causes that I believe in and things like that.
it's like drops in the bucket, but I'd rather just, feel like, okay I'm, my putting my drop in the bucket.
That's all you can do. And, to try to vote for the right people and stand up for things that you believe in,
[00:32:13] Michaela: Yeah. I've been learning that being resentful of capitalism and money is actually harmful. When you do live in this type of society that attitude hasn't made any change, me having that attitude hasn't changed anything, it's just kept me resentful and probably Poor. Versus trying to develop a healthy attitude around, okay, what, this is the currency that we work in, the exchange, and how do I build, why do I want to build my access to capital? And for what? And, that's the type of like work and thought process I've done rather than just, I hate this system then I feel uncomfortable trying to get any of it, but I need it.
that doesn't do, that doesn't do anything.
[00:33:01] John: Yeah. You just gotta be open to it and not make that your priority. Obviously if it was our priority, we wouldn't be, trying to create things 'cause. when you said maybe I'll write prose and it's like, good luck with that.
[00:33:15] Aaron: Yeah. I mean,
[00:33:16] John: Yeah.
[00:33:17] Aaron: yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:17] John: with, with writing a novel for three years and then not even being able to have a publisher publish it or if they do, how much juice you're going to get out of
[00:33:27] Aaron: Yeah, we found the golden ticket, which is producing, yeah, producing a weekly podcast. There's zero money spend money on this thing. So, But in a way that helps our music because we feel way better about our music that actually makes money, that pays for this other habit that just straight up loses money.
[00:33:43] Michaela: Yeah, we're definitely passion driven. People are like, Oh, how's that, new endeavor going? We're like, they're like, do you make money? We're like, no, we spend money on the podcast, zero, but it's enriching.
[00:33:52] John: Yes.
[00:33:53] Aaron: X has been around for so long and you guys have started and stopped and taking breaks and all.
Now that you are later in your career and there's so much history there. There's so many accolades so much of Founders of the LA punk scene and all this does like having to live up to that title and that history impact things for you guys
[00:34:14] John: no, I can't. If you woke up every morning and looked in the mirror and said, how's it going legend? You'd be in some serious trouble. You do think about it. I wanna make sure that the quality of the songs are good and, and that we, I don't worry about us showing up and playing well 'cause that's what we do.
And I'm incredibly grateful for that. ' cause that's, sometimes you'll have a bad show or, won't feel as good as it could have. But I know that we're delivering, if you let that really get into your brain or get into your soul then, then you would quit.
I think maybe Joe Strummer had a, crisis like that and it took him a long time after the clash was done to, to figure out what he wanted to do and how he could do it. but it's just about doing it. It's about continuing whatever body of work you're going to put together and liking it or loving it or, feeling that it's true.
X didn't record because we didn't have a record label. We didn't have a producer. so why would we put all this time and effort into writing songs and recording them if we didn't know what was going to happen to them, I mean, we're that practical and to that degree. And then once we did, then we thought we don't have any excuse now. So I guess vaccine, you and I got to get busy. So we did. And then we kind of opened it up as we were working on the songs to let Billy and DJ have more input or be a little more open to what they could add to it. And they were they had more. That they wanted to contribute. So it worked out. I'm glad for that.
[00:35:44] Aaron: Yeah. you guys have a secret to keeping this going for so long? Or you know,
[00:35:49] John: Yes. And I'm not going to tell you, cause it's a
Yeah.
[00:35:52] Aaron: there it is.
[00:35:53] John: no, there's no secret. I mean, can't sweat the small stuff and you can't hold grudges and you, and if someone says something or does something you don't like, then you have to deal with that or, figure it out. We don't do therapy together.
Although we might do therapy individually,
hmm. Mm hmm. Which I'm a big supporter of and think it's really helpful. But I think in, maybe just enjoying it. we never got in it for I can say this for myself. I didn't get into playing music to get laid or to boss people around or to show off how powerful I am.
I got into it because I wanted to make things and I thought it was cool.
it sounds really basic and silly, but it's true. And then as I realized that there's a, an art to it and I had other, literary input and things like that, then I realized, oh, well, this can be artful and it should be.
And I just wanted to see what it was like to be a Bohemian.
To see what it was like to live like the beatniks did or the hippies and, um, I had some examples that I looked up to grew up in Baltimore and John Waters and his whole crew was a.
knew them a little bit cause they were available but they were stars.
They made movies, they were available and they were, attainable.
[00:37:10] Michaela: I'm always curious about what the swells of success can do to people and also then the come down from moments of success. Like Were there ever times where you maybe got pulled away or, that purity got pushed against you
[00:37:26] John: Oh, absolutely.
us signing to a major record label was, was great. because working with slash records had a lot of downsides because they couldn't get records in stores. we had the spinal tap. Experience where we go to a record signing and there would be nobody there or because the record store hadn't informed anybody that sucked.
Or we go there and there'd be several, be quite a few people there and then there would be no records in order to sell. Cause
hmm. The distribution sucked. But Around the time that Xena and I split up and then Billy left the band, was after more fun in the new world. And we had a pretty fast pace of recording, touring, recording, and touring.
We did the first four records in four years. And I think by the fourth record, more fun in the new world we were burned out. And there the songs are more complicated and there's more words and because we're kind of, Oh God, what do we do now? What do we do now? then ain't love grand, we thought, well, maybe working with Raymond's Eric, who was lovely. Isn't who is going to get us to the next level. So we, caved into the hype and thought maybe we'll use this heavy metal guy, Michael Wagner. And it was a huge mistake. And the record is still embarrassing. There's no soul to it. There's no uh, real creativity in the, recording process.
That was, it sucked. So that was a doubt real downside. And then Billy was just tired because it was on that record, that was probably the record that sold the most, which was all of maybe a hundred thousand records, which at that time was a failure. And we toured really hard on that.
At that point, Billy said, you know what, this is not giving me what I hoped it would. I thought we'd be further along. And so I'm going to step out. And it took us a little while to recover from that but recovering is what you got to do. It's like, I quit.
Nobody cares.
[00:39:14] Aaron: Yep.
[00:39:15] John: Oh, wait a minute, but I quit. Nobody cares. Right. Who's next? How do you keep doing this? It's this is what you do. Does a craftsman, carpenter at a certain point in their life say, pretty much done it all. I'm just going to not do this anymore.
I'm going to do something mature. I'm going to be an adult No, this is, I make things, I think of stuff, I think of stuff and then make it real You just take something that is out in the ether and you have your butterfly net or whatever you want to call it and you reel it in and you make it real and okay, cool.
What's next? Then you try to, get someone to agree that it's. Good. And you like it. Oh, do more. Okay. That's what I'll
[00:39:59] Michaela: Yeah. I kind of fondly think of creating records and stuff as Pulling shit outta your ass. , to be honest, like sometimes I'm like, okay, I did that. I guess I'll pull some more work outta my ass for next time. Like when you really think about it, when you're surrounded by artists, you're like, yeah, that's what everybody does.
But when you think about oh no, this is actually like a big deal to like write music and put feelings and ideas. to words that make sense and rhyme and then add music and instruments so I know pointed out of my ass can feel belittling but to me it seems like a pretty big
[00:40:35] Aaron: deal. I mean it can also be a, a, a slick way of just talking about the non attachment that we were talking about earlier.
always mess this up. I think it was William Burrows that said right. drunk and edit sober or what? Whatever it is, but yeah. You know what I mean? It's like get it out and then catching
[00:40:52] Michaela: whittle away later, catching it in the ether with a butterfly nut is much more beautiful.
That's imagery than what I use.
[00:40:58] John: . So . That's .
I didn't come up with that. well, Yes, there's a I encourage people to find Whatever line level that they want to find where they take a lot of pride in it, you work really diligently and just use your brain, but use your heart and make it the very best you can, but not to make it precious and not to say, this is fine art you need
Mm Bow down to me because.
Yeah. Nowadays, everybody's got a fucking band, everybody writes songs. You can, and so the trick is to make it good enough so that it rises above a little bit or, can get out of the static of all the other stuff that is everywhere, that's been that way, I think since the.
Maybe since the rise of CDs, mid late eighties, where there's so much material out there, there's so much stuff that it becomes like white noise and then with YouTube certainly all the social media platforms now is that there's so much stuff that it is the biggest job is to rise above the static.
[00:42:01] Michaela: And even as a, fan it's overwhelming with how much, but also good stuff. There's a lot of good stuff out there, but sifting through it is challenging, yeah.
we do realize like a lot of times we get pitched for artists to come on from managers and publicists who are promoting a project and we're always like, well, we don't really do that because we want to talk to you about all the personal stuff.
Um, but if you want to do a little sharing of the film, because that's, a really
[00:42:28] John: Oh, yeah. I mean,
DOA is certainly a passion project made on a half a shoestring. We didn't even have a full shoestring to make this movie. it was a real challenge, but it was, like we were talking about with taking an opportunity is I didn't know if I could actually, hold a movie together, and it worked out really grateful for
That's awesome.
yeah, I had a lot of, had a lot of help editing, editing, editing.
[00:42:52] Aaron: Yeah, The carving section of everything.
[00:42:54] John: you know, then, then, and I'll have to start talking about trying to get it on a streaming service and the nightmare of that. wasn't a nightmare at all because they just said no.
[00:43:02] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:43:03] John: No, it's in black and white. No, thanks.
[00:43:05] Aaron: that was the deciding factor.
[00:43:07] John: as you well may know,
Yeah.
the easiest way someone can say no, they'll use, oh, you
[00:43:14] Michaela: True. Yeah.
[00:43:14] John: you got a girl in the band. We can't do that.
[00:43:17] Michaela: Oh my gosh, I, I want to talk to Exene so bad. I, like, that, and what, that experience was
[00:43:25] John: Well I hope you do. I hope you get a chance to. And I'm not saying this in a chauvinistic way, but, we were a team. someone was trying to be, to take advantage of her because she's a
hmm. They would sort of be embarrassed because I would usually be there too.
It wasn't that I was the hero, but people were shamed, shamed into behaving better. although there was one, when record labels had field representatives, you guys are too young for this, but like a big record company would have someone. In Nashville, even though the company was in Los Angeles, they would handle a certain number of states and they would meet bands And there was woman in the Midwest who was a field representative for Electra. And she asked if we wanted to go to a strip club, and that was during the time that like Motley Crue and all those horrible bands were on Elektra. And Axine and I looked at her and said, what? Do we want to go to a strip club?
No. what in the world would make you think that we well, a lot of bands want to do that nowadays. It's like, do you think that we're that kind of a band or people? You've got to be out of your fucking mind. Because, well, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. And I was like, well, you didn't offend me, but you're clueless and tone deaf.
[00:44:35] Aaron: yeah, showing your hand that you have no hand.
[00:44:37] Michaela: I'm always so curious. I mean, Cause even in 2023, as a woman artist, it's still like such a male dominated industry and also the punk scene. I went and listened to um, Dave Alvin talk at the Country Music Hall of Fame this past spring, cause he and I are both on Yep Rock Records.
And it was. Awesome to listen to and talk, but I noticed as he was recounting a lot of the scene and the musicians there were very few females mentioned except for a scene and I was just thinking about like how have an ear out for it all the time, I'm always noticing like, what other women were around?
What other women artists were around or women
[00:45:17] John: in the, in the LA punk rock scene, it was, there were tons of women musicians.
[00:45:21] Michaela: Oh, really? Okay,
[00:45:23] John: There was the bags, Alice bag. go's. wasn't as diverse as people would like to say it was, but there were, a lot of Latino people and some African American people, Carla was the drummer for the controllers.
If you, I can say, if you look at the, under the big black sun book, women are, well represented.
[00:45:45] Michaela: Okay, awesome. but the greater consciousness of what gets, talked about in, not your book, but other books and, Rolling Stone magazine and, you know,
[00:45:54] John: thank
[00:45:55] Michaela: we've seen recently.
[00:45:56] John: God. Jan Winter went down. What a clueless motherfucker. Thank you. Thanks for being just as honest as you can.
[00:46:05] Michaela: so telling, yeah, I was like, but that has created our greater consciousness of culture of women weren't doing that. No, they were, they just haven't been talked about as much. I can't wait to read your
[00:46:19] John: book. it's good. I didn't write it. That's why I can say it's good because. Jane Whedlin wrote a chapter, Dave Alvin did, Henry Rollins. I was the kind of the curator and I tied it together along with my coauthor Tom DeSavio it's a pretty, pretty good combination.
[00:46:35] Aaron: Yeah. Awesome. those listening, we'll put a link to both your books and to DOA. They'll be in the show notes section of this, so you can just go and click the link.
[00:46:43] John: All right.
[00:46:43] Aaron: Watch or read or do all of the above.
[00:46:46] Michaela: This has been such an enjoyable conversation and thank you so much for, for being willing to, to come on and chat
[00:46:53] John: my pleasure.
I hope at some
Right on. All right, Aaron, Michaela.
you guys take
[00:46:57] Aaron: Alright, well take care. Yeah, we'll catch you soon. Alright, see ya. Thank you.