John Moreland is a celebrated singer songwriter who has steadily released 10+ records, mostly independently (through Thirty Tigers) and one with 4AD, receiving accolades from the New York Times, Fresh Air, and Pitchfork, and has tour with the likes of Dawes, Patty Griffin, and Jason Isbell. We talk with John about cutting back on his 'team' so he could return to being more hands-on, how having lots of middle men involved separated him from both his audience and his creativity, going back to a flip phone, jealousy as positive motivation, following your own timeline, and a whole lot more.
John Moreland is a celebrated singer songwriter who has steadily released 10+ records, mostly independently (through Thirty Tigers) and one with 4AD, receiving accolades from the New York Times, Fresh Air, and Pitchfork, and has tour with the likes of Dawes, Patty Griffin, and Jason Isbell. We talk with John about cutting back on his 'team' so he could return to being more hands-on, how having lots of middle men involved separated him from both his audience and his creativity, going back to a flip phone, jealousy as positive motivation, following your own timeline, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And this is the second year of our podcast. We're almost coming to the end of it. So happy to still be here. And so happy that you're here with us.
[00:00:21] Aaron: Yeah, because we wouldn't have a podcast without you guys.
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And so with that, we've started a little Patreon to help support all the costs that go into producing a show like ours. And we offer the normal Patreon things Plus, we're always adding things. It's a living, breathing organism trying to figure out what best supports our community and what works and resonates with them.
We have like weekly dialogues that happen and we're trying to make it a hub to go deeper and to connect with other creators. So with that we have a link below in the show notes if you're interested in that.
[00:02:00] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on for this podcast is that we're not music journalists.
We are musicians ourselves. So we feel like that gives us a different kind of conversation where we're not calling them interviews per se. It's more like we're sitting around the dinner table sharing the honest realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art,
[00:02:23] Aaron: which is a pretty crazy thing to try to do.
and that's because most of this industry. Is completely outside of our control. And so we like to focus on what is within our control, which is. Our creativity, our mindsets our habits and routines. And we've whittled that down to the underlying thesis statement.
What do you do to create sustainability in your life so you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to have that conversation with John Moreland.
[00:02:48] Michaela: John Morland is probably what one would call a prolific songwriter. He has put out over 10 plus records and several EPs. He is an incredible songwriter he's critically acclaimed by many music journalists and outlets. He has toured with Dawes, Jason Isbell, Patty Griffin, just to name a few.
[00:03:09] Aaron: I'd also like to point out that he's critically acclaimed by other musicians. He's one of those songwriters that every songwriter is like, he's good.
[00:03:15] Michaela: Definitely.
[00:03:16] Aaron: one thing that's cool about John that intrigued us about what is going on in his life right now are two things.
One is his Recent move to being as DIY as he possibly can be that's coincidentally where we start in this conversation him realize having that realization that he had built this big team that he thought he needed to get to the next level and grow and all of that and realizing it didn't really serve him and He didn't really feel engaged.
He talked about missing day to day tasks that actually Doing those kept him creative kept him like in the mix as he said, which I can totally relate to and then secondly What we've heard from John and the work that he has done taking a lot of time away from social media reevaluating his relationship to that and to himself and just put in the work to Be grounded to find himself to find who he is as an artist and he was really open and candid about all of that.
[00:04:08] Michaela: Yeah. It's one of our favorite places in someone's life to talk to them when he's, sounds like he's in a place of renewal restarting and gaining his passion and inspiration that he felt when he was just starting out. So it's a really beautiful and engaging conversation.
Without further ado, here is our conversation with John Morland.
How are you doing today?
[00:04:30] John: I'm doing pretty good. doing this. Got another little phone call after this working on a new website, just busy
doing the things that it sounds like this podcast is about.
[00:04:43] Aaron: A hundred percent. Yeah. Or, more so like, trying to be human while doing all those things that you
[00:04:49] John: Sure.
Yeah. I think doing those things helps me feel more human.
[00:04:53] Aaron: I Yeah.
the more task oriented left brain the work of it all, if you
[00:04:58] John: Yeah.
[00:04:58] Michaela: Yeah, I've grown to like that stuff, and one of the reasons I was so curious to talk to you about, like, handling all that stuff yourself, it seemed like, from interviews I've read from you and heard, it seems like you've been in a bit of a Resetting of yourself of prioritizing what you need and taking back kind of control.
And I was wondering if you felt comfortable kind of jumping into that we're personally really intrigued by that stuff. And also like just taking ownership of your, business and your life a
[00:05:31] John: Yes.
That is a thing that's been kind of a theme of my life lately, I would say. I think when I first started, touring. mean, When I very first started, I was just doing it by myself, just getting in my truck and going and as I started to become more successful or, get my foot in the door of the business side or whatever, I started working with more and more people.
And I think that what I started to figure out after a few years is like I'm working with a lot of the wrong people like, kind because at that stage when it's new, you know, I think I just felt like I want to do this one. I want a music career, you know, so like, coming from hardcore. I knew like there's a certain amount I can do myself. And so I'm going to do that. But I think when I reached or felt like I had reached the threshold of that, then it was these industry people are want to get involved. And that seems cool. Cause I want to get bigger and I don't know how to do that.
And they do, and I think that was driving a lot of the decisions that I was making, but didn't really have the experience yet to like know what I need like who I'm going to click with and who I'm not. And it's been a process for several years of just stripping away like this.
series of decisions that I made earlier in my career when I didn't know what I was doing. And um, starting back at zero in a way. I think musically on the last record, that was something I felt, and I think like now as far as just how I'm doing things It's just a lot more hands on.
And like I just, fired my manager a couple weeks ago and it feels awesome actually. There's a lot of, there's a lot of things that they've been doing that I missed doing and. Personally think I can do a better job of not because they're incompetent, but just because I'm me and I know what I need and I don't have to explain myself to anybody.
[00:07:24] Aaron: things you noticed that made you realize it was time to scale back? That they weren't the right people?
[00:07:30] John: when I look back at it now, I'm like, man I really became like scared of my career, I think.
[00:07:35] John: I used to love doing, not just the music part. I love writing and playing music, but I really loved the website.
I love designing merch. I love shipping merch orders out like all that stuff. I love Making the tour book and Helping advanced shows and all that, and I think for a lot of people like there's this idea that your ultimate goal should be to get in a position where You have a bunch of people doing all these things for you that you can just focus on the art,
and I Personally
found that to Be kind of dehumanizing.
I don't think I've ever been less happy in my life than that time when all I had to do is focus on the art, that was like the Time I couldn't make the art. it just caused this block. And, maybe it's cause I wasn't living a real life anymore, so I'm excited to be more hands on again. It feels like, that early stage of my career when I really was free to do what I want. And not have to explain it to anybody. But then at the same time, I have an audience now. So it's amazing. It's like the best of both worlds.
Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You funny
that you mentioned driving too. Because that's one of
[00:08:51] Aaron: me, but like to me, it relates to like driving. Like my first car was a stick shift.
I drove a stick shift for a long time. Then I got an automatic and it felt like I was driving a go kart and now When her car died, we have a family, so we got like this minivan and it like beeps when there's people next to you and it buzzes and it like doesn't and like I feel like numb when I'm driving a little bit, I'm used to like, things are mechanical, you turn the key, it turns on, this thing's like a computer, I'm like driving an iPad.
[00:09:13] John: the things that I missed. I don't want to get carted around on to like, I like driving on tour. I don't
want to be, you know,
maybe if I ever, I've
never made it to bus level and maybe that would be different. And I certainly, would be interested in that because I guess if I could get on a bus, it must mean that things are going well in general but,
man, yeah, I like I miss driving.
I just, I felt like a circus animal or something, just Go in there and do your little trick, and then
get back in the cage and we'll cart you to the next town. Like, that's kind of what tour started to feel like. So that was, that was one of the big signs is just something's not right.
Like I used to love this and now it's like the worst and I dread it. And the past few years, I think since the pandemic have been like, learning to sort of reclaim tour for myself and learning to enjoy it the way I used to, which I would say is working, but it's taking time,
[00:10:07] Michaela: I feel like there's kind of two conversations happening right now in like the greater commentary of the music business of just what a dumpster fire everything is that
[00:10:16] John: Yeah.
[00:10:17] Michaela: but the music industry has always been pretty predatory and not set up for the artist's interest and
that Absolutely.
Getting worse in a lot of ways, but there's also increasingly these conversations of artists who do have audiences and large audiences.
I know what's his name, James
talking about reclaiming his email list. And like this kind of being like, wait a second.
[00:10:43] John: Yeah.
[00:10:44] Michaela: the ones that are making the music.
no matter what size audience reclaiming like, okay, that's why we have these conversations to be like, there's not one way to do this.
And
[00:10:54] John: Yeah.
[00:10:54] Michaela: we get on this path and think, okay, this is what a music career is.
[00:10:58] John: Yeah.
[00:10:59] Michaela: So the next step is this. The next step is that if I don't do this. have a TM, it's a sign that I'm not succeeding.
[00:11:05] John: Yeah.
[00:11:06] Michaela: don't have a bus, it's a sign I'm not succeeding. having these conversations of people on their own individual path, realizing, wait, I actually really like driving.
[00:11:16] John: Yeah. my operations small, and I like designing my own merch. And that's kind of the place that I'm in now, of
Yeah.
[00:11:24] Michaela: a, A record deal and it's cool having all these people to help you, but you get further and further away from the delivery of your, for lack of a better term, product, whether it's
[00:11:35] John: Yeah.
[00:11:36] Michaela: or your music that you're so far removed that you're like, wait, is everyone having conversations without me?
[00:11:43] John: Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, totally. for me it was like it felt like I just ended up in this situation where, yeah, everybody's having conversations without me about what I'm gonna do or should be doing or whatever. And it's my life. I don't know what's going on.
And then just shit just shows up on my Google calendar and I'm like, Oh, I guess I'm doing that the last half of November or whatever, you know, like..
[00:12:05] John: And I think that, something I've learned about my career and about what I do, is that the more stuff there is between me and the audience or between the music and the audience, the worst.
It's gonna be like, just don't just
get all of that out of the way. all I really need to do is just. Grab a guitar and a capo and just show people what I do.
And if I can just find ways to do that, I think it's gonna, good things will happen. but the more people I worked with, it's, just puts more distance between me and that audience, And it felt harder to do that.
It felt harder to find Ways to put myself out there. Left to my own devices. Now I just like being in the mix, just doing my thing and getting out there and having this sort of bureaucratic structure in place where you have to ask five people before you can do anything.
And it's just like insane. It's not for me.
[00:12:58] Michaela: And I always bring this up the five people that you have to ask, then they have to ask other people, and then also, you're not the only project or only artist that
[00:13:08] John: Yeah. Yep.
[00:13:14] Michaela: I'm looking at this email for somebody else.
And oh, shit, like five days went by, I got to go back.
[00:13:19] John: And, And, and the question was like so simple, something that should take five seconds to answer and you got to wait five days instead.
It's just not,
not efficient.
[00:13:29] Michaela: I've learned a lot booking this podcast of how much easier it is when I go direct to the artists
[00:13:37] John: yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:42] Michaela: stuff. And I'm like, can I just the artists and see if they have time tomorrow?
[00:13:48] Aaron: Yeah, we've had publicist pitch us friends,
[00:13:51] John: Oh yeah. Right. Yep.
[00:13:52] Aaron: straight up be like, we'll just send them a text. I'll let them know you're doing great.
[00:13:56] John: Oh, I know. Well, that's, that really like is illuminating of something I've been thinking about a lot since, you know, firing my manager and going through all this stuff is like the music business is so full of just like self appointed middlemen that's what it takes, you know, because like the artists are like, we have art brain and we're good at.
Making the art, but we're not necessarily good at business or marketing or whatever, like I think that I've had times where I've intuitively, I feel like I'm in tune with that stuff and able to like be a little bit savvy, but overall that's not my bag.
Music is my bag, and, like you said, it's set up in a way. That kind of benefits everybody else more than the artists because the artists just want to make their art and get it out there. And then, doesn't take much for an opportunist to just come along and see that and be like, Oh, I could just insert myself right here.
Yeah,
right. No, I, yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:53] Michaela: you're a good artist, then you're bad at business. And it's like, well, that's not true. You can both. Everybody's different. There's not one size fits all BJ
[00:15:03] John: sure.
[00:15:03] Michaela: is always our like favorite example, who
[00:15:05] John: Oh, yeah.
[00:15:06] Michaela: guest.
He's insane. But we're easily, I don't want to say like as harshly preyed upon, but even when you have the business mind, there's only so many hours in the day.
[00:15:17] John: Yeah, and there's only so much you can do and totally you need help.
that's something I admire about BJ too. I think I relate to it a little bit. I don't think I'm as savvy as he is on the business stuff, But I think that, me and BJ come from that kind of DIY punk rock mentality where
The music industry to want to have anything to do with you.
So you got to just do it yourself. And then when you do that, then the music business does want to have something to do with you,
and then it's easy to get like sucked in and carried away again.
[00:15:45] Aaron: kind of like,
In my observation where the music business is heading with TikTok and all of that. It's like, oh, there's money there and they're like
[00:15:52] John: Yeah. that's
exactly what it is now. Yeah. There's no development anymore for
like, we believe in this artist and we're going to like sign them and develop them and give it time to like, that's too much like making a product, they just want it to already be made.
And they just, again, they just insert themselves as middlemen that can be really beneficial to those artists, which is why it's tempting. Yeah. I've had enough middlemen, I think for me. I don't I'm good.
[00:16:15] Aaron: I don't mean to dig on any of these people. I know a lot of people that are like on the, independent business side that they're also. Hustling,
[00:16:22] John: Yeah,
[00:16:22] Aaron: create a career for themselves. do your thing I hope you
[00:16:25] John: sure.
[00:16:26] Aaron: you're looking for I also hope that Artists are able to see that like
[00:16:29] John: That
maybe they don't need you. Yeah.
[00:16:31] Aaron: that you can do a lot more than you think you can you know
[00:16:34] John: Yeah. I hope you find an artist
who needs you and you need them, yeah. I feel like I've been in a situation where it's just been a bad fit and like we don't, Need each other and I don't know why we're doing this,
[00:16:44] Michaela: Yeah, that's another good recognition of again, really knowing yourself, which you
[00:16:50] John: Yeah
[00:16:50] Michaela: maybe know
[00:16:51] John: Yeah, it takes a while
[00:16:53] Michaela: experiences of like,
[00:16:54] John: Yeah,
[00:16:54] Michaela: like, Oh, this person that wants to help me is powerful or well known,
[00:17:00] John: right
[00:17:01] Michaela: I should say yes. And it turns out, It's not personalized though. They don't
[00:17:06] John: Exactly.
Yeah
[00:17:08] Michaela: and
[00:17:09] John: Yeah,
[00:17:10] Michaela: learned that lesson hardcore I had like a big time booking agent and I was like, how could you ever turn down this guy?
[00:17:17] John: right.
[00:17:17] Michaela: of what he's done and known for and he's so powerful
[00:17:21] John: Yeah
[00:17:21] Michaela: like a terrible fit
[00:17:23] John: Yeah, that's,
I relate. individually.
[00:17:26] Michaela: Yeah
[00:17:26] John: you can't have a so and so's manager and expect to have so and so's career because
the manager is not The one doing it. Like the
manager is helping execute things, but the artist is why people connect with them.
Like it's because of the manager the booking agent or anybody,
[00:17:43] Aaron: Exactly.
[00:17:44] John: but that's
something I didn't know till like the last month. So
[00:17:47] Aaron: Yeah. It's a hard thing to see.
[00:17:50] John: yeah.
[00:17:51] Aaron: there are so many conversations that happen outside of your vision that is about your career. So
[00:17:57] John: Yeah.
[00:17:57] Aaron: hard to get a grasp on that. What they're actually doing for you. You
[00:18:02] John: Yeah. Oh yeah.
[00:18:03] Aaron: You don't see the legwork.
[00:18:04] John: Yeah.
[00:18:05] Aaron: wow, I don't understand this. This must be like really difficult. This is really complicated. Thank God they're handling this.
[00:18:10] John: Yeah.
[00:18:10] Aaron: of pull back the curtain, understand that once you get to a certain level, if you have, 18 wheelers and four buses and like a crew of 50,
[00:18:18] John: Sure.
[00:18:18] Aaron: lot of the level that all at, I think it was Joe Pug was on here and he was talking. He had just recently fired his manager
[00:18:24] John: Oh yeah, he took over everything. He's like, he wasn't doing that much.
dude, that's kind of, that's kind of
Where I'm at right now. I've had two different managers and I think that they both, thrived a bit on keeping me somewhat in the dark. yeah, one of them, even gave me some shit about how I'm not grateful enough for the work she does or whatever.
And it's like, now that I'm doing, now that I'm, now that I'm doing that work, I'm just kind of like, yeah, fuck you. Like,
[00:18:54] Aaron: kind of sentence is just fear from
[00:18:57] John: yeah.
that happened after things went down where she could tell she was losing me, I think.
[00:19:03] Michaela: I always feel important, in case my manager's listening to this, that like, I've lucked out that I have a really solid, I've had the same manager for ten years, and That's awesome.
understands me and my bigger life vision, and, I feel very thankful, but
I've had three or four different booking agents and don't have an agent currently so I'm like, Yeah. find the equivalent of Jimmy.
[00:19:25] John: I'm not. See, I'm the opposite. I've had. Yeah. my luck with managers has been like, I've only had one agent ever and, he rules and I love him.
[00:19:33] Michaela: Yeah, that's Yeah.
can you talk about like, Any of the process in your personal life to get to a place where you could see things clearly for yourself and prioritize what do I need and want versus what I think I need for my to be successful?
[00:19:49] John: I mean, I did take Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. a year off from touring And I think that time really helped me just get a ton of perspective on a lot of things. And that was the time when I first started I just realized like how much anxiety and dread was, present in my life because of dealing with this person
And so that was when I started to think about it and it just had been in the back of my mind ever since.
And yeah, it's like when I came back to my career, started playing shows again, started and just got to a mental state where I was ready to do it again. I felt excited about it and kind of ready to like, go out there and Make stuff happen. then it just felt like every step of the way and trying to do that, I was just getting blowback and it kind of just reached a point where it was like just became clear.
Like I can't tolerate this in my life anymore.
But, yeah, I think without that break, which was a huge luxury, like not everybody can. Stopped playing music for a year.
but I'm so grateful that I had that time because was pretty fucked up when that, time off started.
And, I don't know where I'd be, without that little break. But I think that started giving me a lot of perspective and just feeling like this, I don't know if this is a good fit. And then there's like fear of like, am I going to lose everybody else I work with?
Because they're going to be like, Oh, he doesn't have a manager anymore. Like
that didn't
Happen at all.
So it just took time after that. But, time for reflection and rest,
kind of
helped me see It better.
[00:21:14] Michaela: Was it hard to make the decision to take a year off especially like, coming out of the pandemic? I feel like so many people have been driven by, my god, we lost all this time. We have to
[00:21:23] Aaron: catch up.
[00:21:24] Michaela: We have to catch up. Gotta make sure I'm still, my name is still in the mix. Did any
[00:21:28] John: Yeah,
[00:21:29] Michaela: come up for you?
[00:21:30] John: think before I took that break, I had been starting really, I guess before the pandemic I was feeling pretty like shocked and burn out from my career stuff enough that I really stopped like engaging on any social media and doing any of that.
I just, became more of a hermit, I think. what I'm learning now that I'm kind of back is like I only took a year off, I think people feel like I've been gone longer than that because
I wasn't,
Just like making Instagram posts or
and wasn't tweeting and, you know, and,
[00:22:03] Michaela: Yeah
[00:22:08] John: I can see there's new people hearing me too. And there's people that maybe, to 10 years ago when I was in a position where I was getting more press and stuff, like they were still in high school and not listening to.
obscure roots artists yet. So like you know, a lot of like people I used to play with have gotten huge. so there's a lot of these new fans that they love Colter Wall or Tyler Childers or Benjamin Todd or whatever, all that stuff.
And they don't necessarily know. Who I am but that is exciting to me because it just feels like they're just there and all I gotta do is go Show them what I do,
[00:22:42] Aaron: Absolutely, I love that viewpoint of like friends getting success heard a few people Be able to look at it in that light rather than like out of a lens of like jealousy and like hey What about me looking
[00:22:54] John: Yeah
[00:22:54] Aaron: this is possibility. This is
[00:22:56] John: I feel like the sweet spot is kind of both like I don't want to be jealous because that's gonna hurt me And they don't deserve that either like good for them. It is good for them, but then I think, yeah, there is like this other competitive part of me that's like, well, what about me though?
if I can, manifest that in a way, without like jealousy and hatred and just in a more pragmatic like, I see what they got. And. I want some of that too, you know, like
[00:23:20] Michaela: yeah. And like a motivating,
[00:23:22] John: yeah.
[00:23:23] Michaela: than a,
[00:23:24] John: Yeah. to like not show them love or
a hater. Yeah. That's not good. Yeah,
[00:23:30] Michaela: Which again, like jealousy comes up on this conversations and I always appreciate it when people talk honestly about it because
[00:23:36] John: Yeah.
[00:23:36] Michaela: I think it's worse when we try to deny that it's a really human emotion that
[00:23:41] John: sure. Yeah.
[00:23:45] Michaela: no, I never get jealous, but I'm like, I don't believe you.
[00:23:49] John: Yeah. I definitely get jealous what I've learned is flip it into. Positive motivation, like give that person the respect they deserve and just flip it into your own motivation instead
of like trying to hate on them and
Which doesn't even hurt them.
It just hurts me.
[00:24:05] Aaron: Yeah, you you know, one thing I try to remind myself in that situation is don't get jealous or envious of things that I don't think are cool.
[00:24:12] John: exactly. don't want, you know, so it's just a sign that I'm like, man, that's really
You want something. Yeah, exactly.
[00:24:18] Michaela: Yeah. And I think also, Rhett Miller was from the old 97s was on here and he was like, whenever I would get jealous of people's career, I would try to like reframe it in my mind and be like, do I want their lives?
And he's like, No, I want my life.
it's teaching me like, Oh, I really want that one thing that they have,
[00:24:38] John: Yes.
[00:24:39] Michaela: the sales that they have,
[00:24:40] John: you can think about that in a more practical, realistic way that fits into your real life and real personality. You know that maybe you can actually like apply and get somewhere rather than just like wishing everything was different or whatever.
[00:24:55] Michaela: I think the longer you're in the music business. You also Learn how quickly things change
[00:25:02] John: Yeah.
[00:25:03] Michaela: who might be having a big year and you're like, Feeling ashamed that you're burning up with jealousy
[00:25:08] John: Yeah,
[00:25:08] Michaela: be like, you know Then they won't be the next year.
They could continue on but
[00:25:11] John: But who knows?
[00:25:12] Michaela: continue on the next year And then it might be your turn
[00:25:15] John: Yeah.
[00:25:15] Michaela: to have people there cheering you on? So like it's important when it's not your moment But it's other people's moments to like really give them to like that's how I
[00:25:25] John: Yeah,
[00:25:26] Michaela: to help myself If I'm feeling down about myself and see somebody else doing well, I'm like how would I want to be treated if I was, and treated even is like, in people's minds.
[00:25:35] John: Yeah. It's true because it's still doesn't affect their life.
Yeah. They're like,
Yeah,
[00:25:42] Michaela: I also read that like you took a year or six months off of social media and the internet
you mentioned that you like stopped engaging, but something as intentional as that, again, where you're in a career path where everything is fed to us to be like your career lives and dies by your social media presence and, To be like, without putting words in your mouth, what led you to that decision and how did you find its impact on you?
[00:26:07] John: I kind of had already been back from social media for awhile and using it less and less. during that year where I wasn't playing shows I just realized I didn't want to have a smartphone at all for a while. Yeah, so I just put that away and got a flip phone and my wife got one too.
the social media thing,
it was just clear that it was like making me mentally ill. And so I started using it less and less. there's this songwriter I love named Chris Staples that I toured with earlier this year. And he has a song about smartphones and the chorus.
I think it says show me what I like until it burns my eyes.
And that's like what, that's like how it came to feel, you know, it's just like, at some point I had to recognize like, why do I hate everything I used to love now? It's like, cause I
See it all, I'm bombarded with it through this thing.
And it's presented in this context that's just shitty and where people are a little bit disingenuous and people are trying to look good and stuff. And I get that, but it just gives you such a warped sense of reality
and sense of what people are like. it was making me hate things that I like is making me not like people that I like.
so
That, kind of stuff was what led to pulling back from it. And then I was still trying to use it like the bare minimum to just keep up with the career. then kind of had this experience where I think some videos that, we had posted kind of were hitting the algorithm and like more people were seeing them that weren't fans.
And that didn't know me. And I started getting a lot of like body shaming and,
Just
People, you know,
um, um, Being
mean. So that really just freaked me out. And I was just off for like a year and a half, just didn't touch it. And my management did all of it. after that year off where I had a lot of personal growth that whole experience was a big part of what I was like reflecting on and trying to heal from I've gotten to a place where I can enjoy social media for what it is again.
When it is, making me sick, I so far, I've been able to recognize it quicker and just take a break from it instead
of letting it get to the
Point where I need to take a year and a half long break from it. you know, and I'd be, yeah, since I've been back on there, like I've gotten some more comments and some more mean, people and stuff, but I just have such a different headspace now.
I just, I don't engage with those people. Like, I just want to do my thing. I don't,
want the fact that assholes exist to stop me from living my life. But it's been good. I've been, like I can enjoy the cool things about it.
Like actually just connecting with friends and fans. And, it's been super fun.
[00:28:46] Aaron: there are so many positives to it, connection that, find. Cool artists
[00:28:51] Michaela: didn't you get off it for a?
[00:28:53] Aaron: Year Year and a half.
[00:28:54] John: Yeah.
[00:28:55] Aaron: I've been able to approach it like Really healthily since then
[00:28:58] John: Cool. Yeah.
[00:28:59] Aaron: I guess probably because it's easier to step away
it once you step away for a period of time at least for me it kind of like broke the spell of the whole thing
[00:29:07] John: That's how I feel too. Cause it's like, once you've done that now, I know I can do that, you
know, and I don't,
Oh, I can't get off of here. Like everyone uses this and it's just normal now. And then, yeah, you have to show yourself that like, you can not use it too.
That's normal too.
Like,
[00:29:22] Aaron: yeah, I'm able to see it for what it is. And I'm not nearly as much of a public figure as either, of you. But, in talking to a lot of people about their experience with the mean people out there, it's like, you can hold them with a little bit of compassion too.
Yeah. yelling at their phone screen,
[00:29:35] John: Oh man. If you're on the internet being mean to a stranger like,
I don't,
I'm, I'm sorry about whatever's going on in your life
today. I don't know what it is, but it's something.
[00:29:44] Aaron: Yeah. Exactly.
[00:29:45] Michaela: It's such an interesting thing because it's like impossible to talk about today's world without talking about social media because
[00:29:52] John: Yeah.
[00:29:52] Michaela: so
dominating, especially if your career feels very tied to it and it
[00:29:58] John: Yeah.
[00:29:58] Michaela: such a process for so many people.
So I feel like physically ill when I'm in a in an addiction zone with
[00:30:05] John: Yeah.
[00:30:06] Michaela: at it constantly and like noticing I like every time I pick up my phone, I open it, feel my body start responding to it. And
[00:30:15] John: Yeah.
[00:30:16] Michaela: Oh, should probably stop this.
[00:30:18] John: Yeah.
[00:30:19] Michaela: but
[00:30:20] John: Yeah.
it's so crazy. Like there's, times I'm just like, I'm on there and I'm starting to realize okay, I'm Getting sucked in wasting time just idly I'll be like I need to get off here now and then Half hour later. I'm like what the fuck I'm still on here.
Like what I'm still doing it
Yeah also when like you were saying it warps your reality like I found one of my biggest challenges with it has been like scrolling but also like calculating like my sense of artistic or career worth from it
Uh huh
[00:30:49] Michaela: How come I've been doing this music thing for so long and like my peers have you know?
You I don't even have 10, 000 followers. Does that mean like I'm not doing well and everybody looks at
[00:30:59] John: Yeah
[00:31:00] Michaela: judging me and then I'll go out on tour and be like Wait, there's fans out
[00:31:05] John: Yeah, it doesn't matter.
matters kind of but not in this ultimate way that We might think it does.
[00:31:12] Michaela: I heard the author, the novel is Zadie Smith on Ezra Klein's podcast recently, and she's like a New York times, very successful. Author and she does not have social media and she was like, I
[00:31:23] John: Yeah
[00:31:23] Michaela: smartphone. was like, listen, people can do what they want.
And she was like, but these things are designed as behavior modification systems.
[00:31:31] John: Mm.
[00:31:32] Michaela: it is designed to modify our behavior. and
[00:31:36] John: Yeah Yeah
[00:31:38] Michaela: because I know I'm susceptible to it. And she was like, when I have gone on it, it changes how I people that I love in real life. And
[00:31:46] John: Yeah.
[00:31:47] Michaela: We can't blame the people. She's like, we literally are having our behavior modified
[00:31:52] John: Yeah.
[00:31:52] Michaela: these
[00:31:53] John: Yeah.
[00:31:54] Michaela: was like, and then I look at who are the people behind designing it? Do I want to model my life after them?
[00:32:00] John: Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:32:03] Michaela: anyone's considering getting off of social media, go listen to Zadie Smith.
[00:32:07] John: Yeah. Yeah. something I've been realizing lately is you know, look around like, I've been doing this for longer than this person. And how come they got more followers than me
or,
how come. This person has fewer followers than me, but they play bigger shows and they tour on a bus or what,
you know, and like, and it's just like, there's no rhyme or reason to any of it, man.
Who knows?
[00:32:29] Aaron: Yeah. The thing I like to point out And it's another realization that has come from me stepping away from social media and, then coming back is like, all those numbers, like we think of it, we being artists, think of it as oh, those equal fans, like those are
[00:32:43] John: Right.
[00:32:43] Aaron: all those numbers equal.
It's your score for how well the algorithm likes you,
[00:32:48] John: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:32:50] Aaron: game that is
[00:32:51] John: Yep.
[00:32:52] Aaron: whatever we're talking about.
[00:32:53] John: which can have some real life effects, but
at the same time, it's not like Yeah, it doesn't define your career or define your fan base
[00:33:03] Michaela: Can you talk a little bit about in that time you said that it really helped facilitate personal growth? Were there any other things you were doing besides minimizing distractions, like any other, practices or things you were seeking out to help facilitate that growth?
[00:33:18] John: I got into a 12 step program that deals with Codependence that's been like a huge life changer. that was, yeah, just not playing shows and doing that every day. I think.
[00:33:31] Michaela: That's amazing.
[00:33:32] Aaron: Yeah. that kind of work would, no matter what it's focused on,
that kind of like intensive focus and intentional, practice
[00:33:41] John: Yeah. those programs, it's a whole world and people have all kinds of opinions on it. And I understand, and people have all kinds of different experiences, but I think in general. Those steps are designed to teach you how to be honest with yourself in a way that is hard to just know by default
with our human brains,
and so that's what I have found really helpful about it.
[00:34:04] Aaron: Yeah. I've never like officially been part of a, any kind of 12 step program, but I've
[00:34:10] John: Yeah.
[00:34:10] Aaron: very parallel work intensely. And it's like working through something like that, like almost having like, I don't know the word assignment comes up, for me, I was able to change my Paradigm enough that it's like I'm able to like look at myself in this like detached way and look
[00:34:25] John: Yeah.
[00:34:26] Aaron: like Maybe before I would consciously or subconsciously be like, I don't need to look behind that door.
It's
[00:34:31] John: Right. Yes.
[00:34:32] Aaron: that just like has all the junk in it.
[00:34:34] John: what's in there without, judging it and just, what's driving me, yeah,
[00:34:39] Aaron: know, Realizing you can open the door and be like, cool. This is here. do I need this? Like, why is this in here? Could this go somewhere else? And it,
[00:34:46] John: Yeah.
[00:34:46] Aaron: inventory.
[00:34:47] Michaela: Well, and I Yes.
one of the benefits that I see from the outside of 12 step programs or programs that are designed for groups as well, whether you're like
[00:34:56] John: Yeah.
[00:34:57] Michaela: a group setting or not.
my grandparents were social workers and my grandfather facilitated a lot of group therapy sessions and we have lots of people in our life who've greatly benefited, whose lives have changed. for the better way better because of programs what it does by making it be like this is a program that we See as effective because the things that you might be struggling with not really unique a lot of
[00:35:22] John: Yeah.
[00:35:22] Michaela: these struggles
[00:35:23] John: Yeah.
[00:35:24] Michaela: it like minimizes and takes away the judgment and the shame
[00:35:28] John: Absolutely.
[00:35:29] Michaela: allows people to be like, Oh, this thing that I think is so horrible about myself that I've ignored.
because I don't want to look at it because it's too shameful. Oh, there's all these other people that are dealing
[00:35:41] John: Yeah.
[00:35:41] Michaela: similar or the same
[00:35:43] John: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:46] Michaela: that just is
[00:35:47] John: And.
[00:35:48] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:35:49] John: it breaks down the shame and it gives you an example of other people who have, lived through similar experiences and some of those people are doing well and thriving and you get to see that and it, helps me believe that, that can happen for me too.
[00:36:03] Aaron: it gave me some feedback on how much facility I actually have.
[00:36:07] John: Yeah.
[00:36:08] Aaron: what I mean? a Sentence that I've learned in the work that I've done is that mold grows in the darkness
[00:36:12] John: Hmm.
[00:36:13] Aaron: idea that like that
[00:36:14] John: Yeah.
[00:36:15] Aaron: spread and it's like no I just
[00:36:16] John: Yeah.
You got it.
[00:36:18] Aaron: You great put it right back where it's been for
[00:36:20] John: Sure.
[00:36:21] Aaron: decades
Working through the stuff taking a look at this stuff making these changes and like you said seeing people That have had really positive benefits You All of a sudden you're like, Oh, I can do this, and it kind of turns into a feedback loop, at least it did for me, where it's like, things start to shift, you start to feel, more in control, lighter, whatever it is, and you're like,
[00:36:39] John: Yeah.
[00:36:40] Aaron: what about this over here?
I kind of got addicted to it, honestly.
[00:36:43] John: Right. Yeah.
[00:36:45] Aaron: Uh, Ironically enough.
[00:36:46] John: Yeah.
[00:36:47] Michaela: Addicted to self work. That's probably why we started this podcast.
Uh,
[00:36:52] John: think that's why I
write songs.
[00:36:54] Michaela: Yeah, exactly. also like the codependency, I don't know if this was, Rings true for you at all, but I feel like as a performer, someone who, writes personal emotional songs but then shares them and then receives feedback whether it's people actually telling you how much your songs mean to you or just the applause or selling tickets, booking more shows That's something that I feel like taking that away for yourself and then also doing that work as well as taking away like social media Any positive
[00:37:26] John: Yeah.
[00:37:27] Michaela: I'm like, that's what I'm code dependent on
[00:37:29] John: it kind of gives you a chance to learn to love yourself for give yourself positive affirmations that are like not in vain. They're not
about this surfacey thing, you know, that music that people like is not why I'm enough. I'm enough because I am
but yeah, that's a really, I had never really thought about that, but that's a really good point.
Like maybe it's good that I was doing this while not playing shows. And I guess, yeah. I couldn't, my head just couldn't have been in the space to do it anyway, if I was busy touring and stuff. So, interesting.
[00:38:01] Michaela: like there's like an addictive aspect to touring like
[00:38:03] John: Yeah.
[00:38:04] Michaela: home two days ago from like almost three weeks and I feel like, Granted, I'm six months pregnant, so I'm like very tired. So there's a
[00:38:12] John: Okay.
[00:38:13] Michaela: like,
Oh, thank God I'm not around and going on stage every night.
But there's still this little part of my younger self that any time a tour would end, it would be like, God. But. next
[00:38:25] John: Yeah.
[00:38:25] Michaela: more of that and that felt so good. I want more I want more and I've been growing through being like, that was wonderful If that's all there is that was great
[00:38:36] John: I enjoyed it.
[00:38:37] Michaela: more ahead, but I don't need to worry about that right now.
I do
[00:38:41] John: Yeah.
[00:38:42] Michaela: is helpful
[00:38:44] John: Yeah. Can help you find that wisdom.
[00:38:46] Aaron: Yeah touching on what you were saying though about like the outside Positive affirmation. It's so subversive that, outside validation. always think of I don't remember if I heard it or read it, but as Jonah Hill was asked, he was moving more towards directing and producing than being an actor.
And he's like, always wanted to just direct and make films. And all of a sudden, he was like 18 or 20 or something. he was in a film and everybody loved it. And they're like, Jonah Hill's this amazing actor. And he's like, never
[00:39:13] John: Yeah.
[00:39:14] Aaron: power of outside validation on an impressionable mind.
[00:39:18] John: Yeah. Yeah. to be an actor. I'm supposed to do this. People love it. And so Yeah. And it was, 15 years later, he's like, wait a second. I don't want to do this.
Right.
[00:39:27] Aaron: films,
[00:39:27] Michaela: with songwriting, I often contemplate the relationship of the outside affirmation and our ability to like, at least the type
[00:39:36] John: Uh huh.
[00:39:36] Michaela: that I like, which is what you do, like really deep, personal, vulnerable, emotional songs.
And I do a lot of songwriting coaching, which really is like the emotional mental side of songwriting. And I always have students explore like, what if nobody ever hears this? would you still do this? Is this for you? Because I
[00:39:56] John: Mm hmm.
[00:39:57] Michaela: there's that weird line of I think some of the best songs are written when, when the person is not thinking about how they will be received.
[00:40:04] John: I feel you. I think I've written good songs from being motivated by wanting to impress people, maybe once or twice. But I think most of the time the songs that feel good to me and what I'm looking for and trying to land on is something I would want to play and sing by myself in a dark room.
You know, and that's like when I write, that's pretty much what it is. You know, it's me and by myself in a dark room. So it's like, got to feel good there. Those are the ones that, People end up connecting with I don't really need to think about what people are going to think.
I just need to be aware of how I feel about it. I think.
[00:40:44] Michaela: I'm so curious, and you think about again, there's so many other things at play like financial need, but people like Gillian Welch, who goes so long between records doesn't tour for several years and, or Iris Dement waits until they have something to say. I'm so curious what relationship with the need for validation is.
[00:41:05] John: Yeah. Totally.
[00:41:07] Michaela: But again, also, financially, they might not have to churn
[00:41:11] John: Yeah.
[00:41:12] Michaela: record and,
[00:41:13] John: yeah, I think about artists like that too. And I'm a huge fan of both artists you mentioned and like. sometimes I'll finish a record and I feel like just whatever, like I'm done, drained, that's all I had in me, but I'm, but I like the record, I'm really proud of it and I'm feeling it I'll think man, I might not make another record for five, six years and
then. two years later, I'm ready to do it
again every, you know,
[00:41:36] Aaron: hmm. Mm
[00:41:37] John: not even about the finances. I just, I mean, I Probably, I don't know if I could go as long as they do between records, I maybe could go longer than two years, but I just haven't really wanted to yet.
[00:41:48] Michaela: And you felt compelled but I understand
[00:41:50] John: yeah.
[00:41:50] Michaela: just that was a lot. I'm drained.
[00:41:53] John: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, like
Lucinda is another one I think, feel like she's has put out records more frequently than the later part of her career. But
like, yeah, she would go
Five, six, seven years between records, Yeah.
[00:42:07] Michaela: And sometimes like from reading her book, sometimes that was like, business issues,
[00:42:12] John: Really?
[00:42:13] Michaela: issues car wheels got held up for a
[00:42:16] John: Right.
[00:42:16] Michaela: which again is like the reality of a lot of artists who are operating within industry system.
[00:42:23] John: Yeah.
[00:42:23] Michaela: you're like sitting on stuff.
[00:42:25] John: Yeah.
[00:42:26] Michaela: maybe that also that insecurity or those frustrations Keeps like in a place where you're not ready to work on the next project or
[00:42:35] John: Totally. Yeah.
[00:42:36] Michaela: Not ready to write because everything feels in flux in these other ways. there's so many contributing factors
[00:42:43] John: Yeah, totally. And can you imagine if you were sitting on car wheels on a gravel road and How would you be like Well, I guess that might not come out. I'll just start writing another thing now. Like
Like
[00:42:55] Michaela: And I feel like it's a thing to be like, just hurry up and get it out because time is wasting and I'm losing time and I'm losing my career and
[00:43:02] John: Yeah.
[00:43:03] Michaela: she got a career like,
[00:43:05] John: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:43:09] Michaela: 37 and still working at a taco shop to make ends meet and like doing whatever I needed to do.
I just felt very devoted to art of it.
[00:43:18] Aaron: Talk about a positivity of Being closer to your friends having less middlemen
[00:43:22] John: Mm hmm. to put music out a little bit faster you know,
That's true.
[00:43:25] Aaron: started to feel the Slide towards irrelevance of written publications,
[00:43:30] John: Yeah.
[00:43:31] Aaron: print or online, you know I think everybody's kind of like yeah, that's even the people that write for them are like this is declining
You know, that's been why it's like, oh you need to have four months lead time three months lead
[00:43:41] John: Right.
[00:43:41] Aaron: like maybe you don't anymore,
[00:43:43] John: don't think you do anymore. my record this year, I put it out with warning. Like, it just
[00:43:48] Michaela: Yeah
[00:43:51] John: comes. And it's like the previous record before this one, I had people like texting me like the day the last single came out, like congrats on the album or whatever, you know?
And I'm like, no, it's just another single. It's not out yet. You know? And then by the time it comes out, I think I can say this from experience like, an album gets announced that I'm excited about. It's an artist I like. I'm like, Oh, cool.
They got a new album and there's a single that's released with the announcement and I checked that out and I'm like, Oh this rules. I love it. looking forward to the album. then a month later, another single comes out and I'm like, all right. yeah, it's cool. By the time like the third single comes out, I'm kind of like, yeah, I get what this is.
I don't, and I don't, and I probably am not going to check it out. And then when the album finally comes out, I'm like, yeah, I'll come back around to that. I'm on some else now. I just, that's, that happens to me all the time. There were records that came out the same day as My new one this year that we did no advanced promo on I got back on Instagram, I think in like December last year and my record came out April 5th and there were records that also came out April 5th that I was like, wow, I've been hearing about this record the whole time I've been back on social media,
like,
and now it's finally out and I'm like, tired of it.
I'm tired of hearing about it.
And so I just, I could really feel that on the previous couple records. It's like this long advanced PR thing like does not work anymore.
[00:45:10] Michaela: I feel like it was, built that way because they were anticipating first week sales
[00:45:14] John: yeah, exist anymore.
exactly.
[00:45:17] Michaela: like, If you want to highlight songs,
could just put the record out and then devote each month to be like, want to like, really push this song from the record and then
[00:45:26] John: sure.
Yeah.
[00:45:28] Michaela: record's available the whole
[00:45:29] John: Exactly.
[00:45:30] Michaela: But yeah the situation is different than it used to
[00:45:34] John: Yeah.
[00:45:34] Michaela: Do you work with a label or are you how are you releasing your music?
[00:45:38] John: most of my records I've done with 30 Tigers.
so I have a label with them. That's like their model or whatever. And they are kind of a label slash distributor, but they're extremely like hands off. And they kind of just let me do what I want.
I own all those masters. I did one record with 4AD, I was like, why does 4AD even want to sign me? That's crazy. But I think that, um, just that growing up as a, such a fan of Just the culture of like independent music and all the classic indie labels and stuff. I was kind of like, well, I gotta try this.
And,
it was cool, but it didn't work out. And I, you know, whatever, I was working with a lot of the wrong people then. So I don't know what happened there, but
the only record that I don't own the master to though.
one day I'd like to get it back, but I don't know.
We'll have to figure that out.
[00:46:27] Michaela: Yeah. Mm hmm. tricky system.
[00:46:30] John: Yeah.
[00:46:31] Michaela: Man, thank you so much. We're out an hour, so we always want to be mindful of people's times, but thank you
[00:46:35] John: Oh yeah,
[00:46:36] Michaela: jumping right in right
[00:46:38] John: for sure. Yeah. Thank y'all as well. That's great. Thanks y'all. Appreciate it.
[00:46:42] Michaela: you. All right.
[00:46:43] John: All right. Bye.