Kaia Kater is a Juno and Polaris prize-nominated songwriter from Canada, who also won a Canadian Screen Award for Best Original Song in the BET series 'The Porter'. We talk about how a government-support grant system for the arts effects creativity, the importance of speaking out in integrity, the power in finding communities with shared experiences, and owning vulnerability.
Kaia Kater is a Juno and Polaris prize-nominated songwriter from Canada, who also won a Canadian Screen Award for Best Original Song in the BET series 'The Porter'. We talk about how a government-support grant system for the arts effects creativity, the importance of speaking out in integrity, the power in finding communities with shared experiences, and owning vulnerability.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And since this podcast is still relatively new, thank you so much for returning if you are coming back for more. And thank you for checking us out if this is your first time
[00:00:15] Aaron: listening.
for those of you that are returning, if you haven't yet, please take a second to rate us on your listening platform of choice.
It's a simple five star rating. You don't have to write anything if you don't want to. And ratings help get our show in front of new listeners. And the more ratings that we get from our community, the more listeners we get, the more listeners, the more guests, the more ideas, and it just turns into a whole big circle party, so we appreciate your help on that.
[00:00:40] Michaela: We're not your typical music promo show. We like to talk to artists in the off times. We're not talking about their latest records or tours that they're promoting. We're talking about the behind the scenes tools and routines they've found helpful in staying inspired, creative, and sane while building a career around their art.
[00:00:59] Aaron: And with so much that's outside of our control in this career, we wanted to focus on what is within our control.
So we decided to invite our friends and some of our favorite artists on to talk about the times that are outside of the public eye and ask them the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain creating?
[00:01:17] Michaela: Today's guest is Canadian folk musician. Kaya Cater. I've known Kaia for a very long time, so it's very exciting to get to have her sit down with us. She is a banjo player.
She's released multiple records, one of which is Juno nominated and Polaris Music Prize long listed. grenades is the name of the record. She also has composed and written original music for The Porter, a TV show on BET and CBC in Canada. And I think she said it's the first all black cast and
[00:01:53] Aaron: staffed.
The largest entirely black. run show in Canadian
[00:01:58] Michaela: history. Amazing. And for that, she garnered a Canadian screen award for best original song in a drama series.
[00:02:06] Aaron: Yeah. So to start it off, we had to ask the question that most American musicians probably want to ask a Canadian is what is it like to get grants? Cause having a government that supports the arts is an amazing thing. And. Kaya shared her experience and how the big impact of that is that it provides some humanity for her life and the ability to rest In take her time with her creativity.
She also brought some point of view because she is a jurist on the grant board, helping to award artists some touring grants this year. So she of brings a good perspective to that.
[00:02:39] Michaela: we talked about a lot of different topics like expanding to diversify her creative career and the power of opening up and sharing specifically with colleagues that have shared experiences as her, the importance of Black women musician friendships.
[00:03:00] Aaron: Which was really great to get into so specifically because that's the unstated mission of this show is to share. experiences with our community, that are more shared than a lot of people think. And to, be a platform for ideas and acceptance and of opening it up. And Kaia was really generous with that and really vulnerable with that.
And it just sent ideas flowing through my head. It was such an inspiring conversation. So we're not going to keep you from that without further ado. Here's our conversation with Kaia
[00:03:31] Michaela: How are you?
[00:03:32] Kaïa: I'm okay, I'm happy to be talking to you because I love this podcast, I'm
[00:03:37] Aaron: Oh, sweet. Oh, amazing. Thank you so much.
[00:03:40] Kaïa: of course, yeah, it's so great, and I can't believe that nobody has talked about the other 22 hours.
[00:03:46] Aaron: That's kind of what we thought. I mean, like, we all have these conversations, anyway, So we figured we'd just do it in front of a microphone and then go from there.
[00:03:54] Kaïa: yeah, I really love that concept.
[00:03:56] Michaela: Yeah, talk about the juicy stuff that we try to keep hidden from the public. Let's just put it out in the open.
[00:04:03] Kaïa: Yeah, let's let all the secrets out,
let's let them know. I know. I know. I know.
[00:04:08] Michaela: Where are you right now? That's why I was, are, do you live in New York now or are you still in Toronto?
[00:04:12] Kaïa: I am living in Brooklyn.
[00:04:14] Michaela: Oh, okay. Cool. Nice. Where in Brooklyn?
[00:04:16] Kaïa: I'm in Kensington.
[00:04:17] Aaron: Ah, we're in Kensington.
[00:04:19] Kaïa: I'm like Coney Island in church.
[00:04:22] Aaron: Oh yeah. Know exactly where that is. Yeah. Yeah, we lived in Ditmas Park, on Cortellia and 19th and then on Foster and Argyle. Foster and Argyle. And then I lived on McDonald Avenue. Up near the cemetery, off the Fort Hamilton stop on the F, so I know that area really well.
[00:04:38] Kaïa: Sweet, would you go for walks in the cemetery?
[00:04:41] Aaron: Not ever! I lived there two years and I never went, we had a front porch, so I spent a lot of time looking at the
[00:04:46] Michaela: cemetery. It was literally like, looking at the cemetery. When we met... We went to the new school and we met and we went on a walk and he was like, yeah, I live in Brooklyn. I that point lived up like in Morningside Heights up by Columbia and he was like, yeah, I live in Brooklyn.
I live in a house and have a porch and I have a car and I was like, you're going to be my boyfriend.
[00:05:05] Kaïa: Damn!
[00:05:07] Aaron: Yeah. Yep. Nothing to do with me as a person only to do with what I had.
[00:05:12] Kaïa: we're famously folk musicians are very materialistic
Yes.
[00:05:15] Aaron: Yeah. Going all the way back to, you know, Woody Guthrie was just all about possessions.
[00:05:21] Kaïa: yeah.
[00:05:21] Michaela: Sixteen years later, anyways well, you're the first non American that we've had. On the show so far, Do you have dual citizenship? Are you 100% Canadian?
[00:05:32] Kaïa: 100% Canadian, yeah, I'm here on a performance visa,
[00:05:36] Aaron: I work with a handful of Canadian artists here in my studio. And I always ask about the grants that are available to you guys. If you're on a visa here in the states, are those grants still available to you?
[00:05:48] Kaïa: They are basically what I do is I still technically have a main residence in Canada, so I actually bought a house earlier this year. With my mom, and so, like, I'm super lucky that I can keep my official residence in Canada and come back and forth to the States under basically a traveler status.
I still can access grants, but if you were to move over here permanently and buy a house, list your residence in the U. S., there are some grants that you couldn't access anymore, but there are also some that you still can, no matter what. And a lot of Canadian musicians who I know who are living both sides of the border will access those grants, too.
[00:06:32] Aaron: Are they something that you have used throughout your career?
[00:06:36] Kaïa: Oh, undoubtedly. Yeah. Yeah. Daddy government? Yes. Yeah. when I was starting to... tour full time. The governmental system in Canada was switching, so we had a conservative prime minister for like 10 years. His name was Stephen Harper, and he made it his mission, basically, to defund as many arts programs as he could, including grants, funding.
And when I graduated college and started touring, it was a year after Trudeau had he promised to reinvest millions of dollars basically back into this grant system. So I was really lucky to start applying to grants when there was actually money in the pot to apply to. And I credit grants as being the reason why I'm still able to play music because There were so many years, and still will be years in the future, where I'm going into significant debt in order to take risks, in order to open for people, in order to make a record, I feel like with the grant system... You have to be real with your applications. You can't abuse the system. It's very obvious when you're cramming like, Oh, I'm gonna throw a tour bus in there for 130 grand and
They won't. But it's helped me get forward in my career in a way that I don't think I would have without that help.
That's
[00:07:58] Aaron: incredible. Yeah, that's pretty incredible. it can be a, Pretty taxing application process for all of them. Is that accurate?
[00:08:05] Kaïa: Yeah, it is. And, I think there's a certain way that musicians think that we have to talk to grant funders. And in the States, there is a very specific way that you have talk to grant funders because it's a lot of private money And from what I understand from Americans applying there's like a certain way that you have to position yourself That sometimes feels a little gross, But that helps these private funders feel like they're giving back or helping the little guy versus with public grants the government really wants you to be more real about your art and how you feel about your art and specifically how your art can represent Canada abroad. So it's still a super colonial kind of, how can you make us look good kind of thing. But they put more of a priority on how you see yourself, how you see your art, and how the money is going to help you get further in your career.
[00:09:00] Aaron: when we lived in Brooklyn, I helped run, community percussion ensemble and it was based in like Northeast Brazilian percussion. And we got grants semi frequently being like once every three to five years, which, is substantial.
like the Brooklyn arts council and stuff like that. I think you can only get that grant like every five years. But it was, Definitely that luckily there were people in our community people that were our students that were grant writers like that was their job With that language that you're talking about and I didn't start the school a friend of mine started it, But just like being on the inside and talking to him It really made everything feel like museum music in a way where it was very much like oh look at us We can present this artifact to people as music since it was all, pretty much private money or like corporate money, they would put into grants and nonprofits and all of that.
But that said Having this public funding, it seems like a pretty amazing thing to free up your creativity.
[00:09:58] Kaïa: Absolutely, and I think, even beyond my creativity, just to feel more human, to be able to take longer breaks to write, because I have money to live on while I'm writing, I went to college in the States and, my partner's American and so I interface with a lot of American musicians all the time and, obviously America has some of the most incredible music, like the music that I play.
I play the banjo, an instrument of the diaspora, the African diaspora, you know, and fundamentally American. And it's a real struggle To see my friends who really should have time to be able to relax and not to be worrying about money and to be able to create their art. Or to be able to have time where they're, going through dry spells or they just want to hang and write and go to yoga class and journal.
I feel like grants have given me that. They've given me my humanity.
And to wake up and not always be thinking about, okay, how am I going to make money today?
Yeah.
because that is the state of, capitalism and the weight that a lot of my American friends are dealing with.
[00:11:03] Aaron: Absolutely. I don't think a lot of our listeners feel this way, but like the very the stereotypical American point of view on that is like, oh, well, if you have this given to you, you're just going to be lazy and you're not going to create anything because you're going to have all this money there already.
just knowing who you are and what you've accomplished. You are the antithesis of that. You have created so much. Can you talk a little bit about how that grant money has inspired that? I know it has given you time to focus on your art, but like, Clue us Americans into what it's like to have such peace of mind.
[00:11:35] Michaela: Well, you do have American partner. He's a musician, right?
[00:11:38] Kaïa: he is, he's a
bass player. Yeah, I can see the bass on the wall right there. I feel like there's the myth of laziness that's squished into that, if they get grant money then they won't work. And that's definitely a feeling that is rampant in Canada.
There are a lot of more conservative people who don't feel like their tax dollars should go to my record. But I feel like Americans deserve that time and that space and that humanity and I feel like Canadians deserve that time and space and humanity. And I also feel like because I'm able to rest, I'm also able make records that mean more to me and to work harder when I have that money available.
I
don't necessarily feel like it's like, oh, well, I have all this money. So I'm just not gonna work That's never been the case for me or any other musician that I know.
We're always working all the time We are most of us are workaholics and so it's just always seemed like such a fallacy to me that if you have all this money Then you're not gonna work.
No, you're gonna be able to take time to chill And not hustle, but when you do hustle You're going to be smart about it, and you're going to try to get your money to go as far as it can.
[00:12:48] Michaela: And I feel there's A meme or a tweet or something that I've seen go around the internet the statement how so many trust fund or like netbow babies become artists. So many wealthy people who don't have to worry about money become artists and what that says about humans wanting to create when they don't have to spend all of their time just making money.
When that is taken out of the equation, what do they do? They spend their time, creating art. And I think the concern of like, oh, you get money, you're not gonna work, or, you're gonna be lazy, or whatever. It also is kind of trying to, like, quantify...
Art, which I think is really challenging to do of like, what's Kaya's record worth? Why should my tax dollars go to her making her record? How many records is actually gonna sell? How many people is it gonna reach versus the unquantifiable impact of one person being Kaya, having the peace and the, easeful life of being able to do what they feel is their purpose, and then also then who they share that with, even if it's five people and how that positively impacts those people's lives and how that ripple effect We can't quantify that, and I feel like that's the greatest thing about art and connection and conversation is that we can't quantify how this is positive to society, but to me it's undeniably positive to society.
[00:14:11] Kaïa: I deeply agree. And I can feel, for some grants, and I'm doing a jury now, and I'm reviewing 130 grant applications for a pool where only 30% will get accepted.
And these are all, touring grants. Applications for touring grants and so many musicians come in and just first paragraph Here are my Spotify numbers
Are my tick tock numbers here are my export goals and those things are important absolutely important, but from what I'm learning in a grant context, the government actually wants to hear about how you're connecting with people I just wrote this record, this is about loss or this is about grief.
This is how I want to share it with people. obviously, if you include just, a paragraph about your art and not about. What your tour goals are, you're not going to get approved, but they want both. And I think we've, as artists, been so scared into proving our worth by metrics
Often that's what we feel like we have to lead with in grant applications.
Especially, Canadian artists. I understand it, but I also, feel like more of us could just say well, yeah, I have 7, 000 Instagram followers, but this person at, the merge table connected with me about how, my record really affected their shitty year that they were having and help
them out,
[00:15:33] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:15:34] Kaïa: be a little pie in the sky.
[00:15:35] Aaron: love that. That's really amazing that they focus on like Okay, cool. But what about your art? What is your art providing to society? I understand the point of metrics and all of that. It's an easy way to quantify and compare things.
I don't think that you can completely remove the face of art and reduce it to numbers to accurately compare, you know, I could do something completely unrelated to music and put it on Tik TOK and get millions of views and hundreds of thousands of followers and then I'll post something about my music.
And it doesn't get any response, people signed up for my Tiktok because like I juggled a barbecue on my finger while I was like, deep owning a chicken or something like that. I was just watching barbecue videos for some reason on my phone and reset my
[00:16:17] Kaïa: Harlem
Globetrotter
[00:16:18] Aaron: Yeah, that.
Yeah. but with, numbers and metrics you essentially don't have any control over any of that.
[00:16:25] Michaela: Aaron's heard me talk about him forever, but Eric Ward, he used to be the director of Western State Center, this inclusive democracy nonprofit organization.
And he's like a leading expert in white nationalism and white supremacy and, combating anti black racism and anti Semitism. He's a Southern poverty law fellow, and he's also a folk musician and a huge folk music fan. And He was doing these kind of cohorts with artists talking to folk and rootsy musicians about how to, engage.
on topics and subjects that we feel passionate about. And I remember him saying that in their work, they've often felt like if you're trying to impact social change or cultural change, often smaller audience, regional artists can have even greater impact than somebody with a massive platform because of the kind of more person to person connection that can be had at small shows, conversationally on social media versus if you're playing an arena, it kind of turned it upside down for me of like, kind of in this age bigger is always better.
You can't really do much if you don't have a huge audience. And he really flipped that concept No your impact might feel small, but it might actually be deeper because of the closeness. even if it's 20 people versus 20, 000 people.
[00:17:44] Kaïa: Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. And I think I've gotten older, I've started to appreciate those interactions more. I think when I was younger, I would do the show and then, There are some issues with the merch table, which you know, Michaela, like we don't have to go in there, but the positive interactions I would have are when someone would say, thank you for your music.
I drove from Rochester to
Mm hmm. Mm It would just fly right past my face, I wouldn't be rude or anything, But Especially post lockdown, I appreciate those interactions infinitely more, these are the things that keep me going when I'm spiraling, or when I'm having, my weekly cry about what I'm doing with my life I feel like, those are so much more important to me than they used to be.
And I used to look around at a venue and say, okay, when can I sell this out and move to the bigger venue? And I think, and it's part of youth to sort of be hungry and you need some of that hunger to keep you going through, pretty miserable touring circumstances sometimes.
But yeah I've, I've started to really take note. Of those interactions and put them in a little pocket for when I'm having a bad day.
[00:18:52] Michaela: Well, I think also like just the more you live, the more you can actually empathize with what somebody like went through to come see you. For us now having a two year old and like, when somebody's like, I have kids and I got a babysitter and I drove three hours to your gig, I'm like, holy shit, that's a lot of money and a lot of time and then you drive three hours home now I have real lived experience that can relate to it where when I was 22, I probably would have just been like, Oh, thanks, cool. I wouldn't be like, wait, how many hours of a babysitter is that where you're just sitting in the car? And like, you know, so you just, I think you gain empathy and then understanding and then appreciation. And your values shift, like you said you're hungry when you're young.
And then when start. Just seeing reality and that weekly cry of what are you doing with your life if you feel comfortable, can you share about like some of the stuff when you have those doubts or questioning? Because this is something that everybody has, but we all admit it to varying levels of honesty.
[00:19:58] Kaïa: Oh yeah. let's see. My weekly cry. Usually happens in the evenings for me. I think the despair hits me in the evenings and then in the mornings I wake up, I'm like, it's a brand new day, let's go.
Yes.
Recently, I think it's been centered around, I just got my master's back for a new album and there's something about the finality of it that's very much scaring me right now. I can't go back and change anything. I can hear some of the mistakes. I think I went through this phase where I was extremely proud of it, and I think I'll get back there.
But right now, I think I'm having a lot of shame and doubt and, definitely this feeling of, am I being left behind? I'm not on the road right now. Right now, I'm in a fallow period for a little while until the record comes out. And I think also there's this element I'm 29 now, but when I was younger, I could always say like, well, if this doesn't work out I'm going to switch, I'm going to change my career.
I'll go back to school. I think there was always this exit ramp that I was keeping alive,
In order to not scare myself too much with the reality that I might be in this for life. And I think it's always true that you can leave your career at any point, whenever. If you're 30, if you're 50, if you're not happy, of course.
But I think I'm coming to terms with the fact that I do wanna do this for the rest of my life. the internal conversation becomes, how can I save for retirement? How can I keep growing my career? Which are pretty reasonable questions. Those are questions that everybody who is in a career asks themselves.
I think those things are becoming more real and. Sometimes that weight becomes overwhelming and it's almost like I just need to shed that layer of skin by crying. And I know that doesn't mean that I'm doing the wrong thing, it doesn't mean that I'm going in the wrong direction, but it just means that I just have to feel the magnitude of those emotions and let that tidal wave wash over me.
And express my fear and express my doubt. In a way that I never used to because I used to see those as weaknesses and so I would keep everything inside oh, yeah, no, I have no doubts about my career, and I'm starting to see that expressing these things to trusted friends and to fellow colleagues is a very healthy thing to do, if everyone has capacity to handle it, Why not just say those things out loud?
Like, what is wrong with that?
[00:22:24] Michaela: I think there's this, at least I've felt this insecurity of, if I admit to peers, that It's gonna, like, reveal me as not as hardcore as everybody else of like, Oh, you don't ever doubt your place in this and you just are, like, a hundred percent this is what I want to do? Okay, then you probably are more meant for this than I am because I'm having these questions and I think I've also been learning like, no, that's just not true.
[00:22:50] Aaron: It's all layers of imposter syndrome. feeling like an imposter to yourself and feeling like a fraud and then you don't want to share it because you're like then everybody's going to know that I'm a fraud. And I think that's all just a very real thing. The more experiences I have and the more people I meet and the more I own my vulnerability with all of this.
The more I realize it like nobody knows what the fuck they're doing and everybody feels like an imposter and a step further is the people that at least come across as not feeling like an imposter. I Don't think they're pushing themselves enough. They're afraid and they're in a comfort zone and they're not growing or progressing or expanding And they're also probably lying and they probably feel like an imposter.
They're just not running up to it.
[00:23:35] Kaïa: totally agree with you, and I think there's this kind of understanding as you become more yourself, as you get to know yourself better through the years and really start to understand what your value system is. I feel like it's the Sylvia Plath fig tree analogy where the older you get, the more you see the different lives you could have taken or the different people you could have been.
You see those kind of fall off. And there's fear in that, but there's also this sense of oh man, I'm, I'm discovering more of who I am instead of trying on all these different. Identities and postures. And, I think I'm coming to terms with the fact that I'm always going to be very outspoken about racial justice.
I'm always going to be very outspoken about things that I don't think are fair. And I know some younger people who are like I'm not going to be political because that might injure my career. I want people to be able to come to my music and enjoy it. And for there not to be any sort of partisan issue that stops them from enjoying it. that's not who I am. I am gonna challenge people. And I am gonna like, talk to festival bookers about how, there's not enough black people in your festival. And I think there's fear in that. I think my younger self would be like, oh man what are you doing?
You're in it for you. Like, there's some fear there that as I'm expanding I'm not going to be as narrowly focused on myself anymore, and what's best for me, and what opportunities are good for Kaya, damn the festival's values, or, The toxic people in the industry, so. it's approaching 30. It's just approaching 30 is what it is.
[00:25:12] Michaela: Yeah. there's consequences to living out loud when you are someone who's not just going to be submissive and quiet. And I grew up with a very outspoken mother and we moved all the time because of. My dad being in the military and every school I went to, my mom quickly got a reputation because she was such a fierce advocate for my brother and me and for anything that she thought was unjust or unfair everywhere we went in life and you know, I saw how lonely that was for her as well, but she lived and has lived her values uncompromising and her values aligned with putting other people first and wanting to stick up for people who didn't have the courage or didn't have the ability or didn't have the voice.
And I feel like as I've been. Growing and now also being a mother, but also navigating the music business and the way that I speak out about things on social media, I realize I'm never going to be an easy woman. I'm going to be a pain in the ass about things. I have insecurity about that sometimes, because I think it has maybe prohibited me in some ways, because I've pushed and lost opportunities But at the end of the day, I'm like, but it feels icky to not speak up when you feel like that is what you should be doing I feel like I learned that young, when Aaron and I lived in Brooklyn, the first apartment we got together was run by a super slumlord off of Ocean Avenue there was like. The old guard of tenants who'd been in there for like 30 plus years. A lot of them Caribbean immigrants and, you know, had rent control. And the new young white, couples and families moving in and our landlord was. jacking up our rent and trying to push those people out and we could have just sat pretty and kept our mouth shut and like kept our rent and tried to get our apartment fixed. but we were right out of college and like they were doing tenant organizations and we joined in and Aaron went to protest outside of our landlord's apartment and he was
[00:27:16] Aaron: outside of his gated community.
Oh yeah, he was in gated community in
[00:27:19] Michaela: Coney Island
[00:27:19] Kaïa: Lord.
[00:27:21] Michaela: and it was on the news and he was on
[00:27:23] Aaron: the news but he also knew that I was part of the tenants association because we would meet in the lobby and he'd watch on the security cameras and see us all in
[00:27:32] Michaela: there. But he thought that he was Hasidic Jewish.
He thought we were like a young white Jewish couple when he saw Our involvement his treatment of us changed really fast. Overnight. And we got abused. And I remember having a moment of being like, Damn it, Aaron! And then like, wait. Oh, this is exactly what we should be doing.
And thankfully, that was early in our relationship, so it was really a good early lesson okay, this is the type of life that we're living and we're not gonna be
[00:28:03] Aaron: comfortable. when our lease came up, he was giving us like a preferential rent, and I can't remember the exact numbers, but it went up like over a thousand dollars a month because we didn't have rent control.
Because we had rent control, but he was giving us a preferential rent, so he had it registered with the city as a rent that was like this much, but he was only charging us this, so that disappeared, and then he raised it how much, and so we moved out luckily, you know, we had the means to be able to move and all of that, a few months later, I found out that like, our neighbor who lived across the hall was taking him to court, because he didn't do any of these repairs, and he was trying to evict her and all of that, So I showed up at the courthouse in downtown Brooklyn, and he walked in and saw me and he froze when I was standing there next to my neighbor.
And I think she, the court ruled in her favor, but just the satisfaction of seeing that dude freeze and be like, Oh, what
[00:28:49] Michaela: yeah, and I share this story not to like toot our horns, but just to share the early lessons of understanding that there are consequences to not just going with the status quo.
And I think what you're saying of understanding that shift in yourself of not being about yourself and maybe you won't get booked for a festival if you question them or whatever, but really digging into your values and I think the maturity of realizing, what are the parts of myself that I'm willing to sacrifice to gain and what are the things that are not negotiable for me that I, make me Not care about this idea of success that we've created of being on these, bills or gaining or whatever. If it means that you're going to sacrifice things that you know deeply in yourself should be spoken up about.
[00:29:40] Kaïa: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, overall, I feel positively. Because there's never been a better time to be alive, if you're of women. Also, if you're black, I feel like things are still trash, Juneteenth was yesterday. And I was reading a lot and just thinking about uh, Stokely Carmichael of said about how black visibility is. Is not black power. I think when I was growing up in like the 2000s and 2010s, it was all about globalism and free to be you and me and have a black president and post racial we've evolved. And I think what I'm coming to understand is that this is a marathon, and this is a marathon that.
started with our ancestors way, way back. when I start to think of myself as a link on a chain, I feel more empowered and less exhausted by all the things that I run into in my career that feel abusive or that feel inequitable, on my behalf or the behalf of others, as you're talking about, right? What I've had to confront is that because I'm light skinned, I feel like there's been a conspiratorial understanding that I can go along with whiteness, or because they're booking me and I'm a light skinned person, and then meanwhile there's no other black people on the festival, that'll be okay with me. was never okay with me, but for a long time, I didn't feel like I had enough of a voice or was in enough of a position of power to say anything. And no one disabused me of that notion, and I think it was only when I, started to say well, I'm willing to lose this opportunity.
That was the point at which I felt more and more empowered because once you start to not hide who you are and not hide who you believe in, yes, you're going to lose opportunity, but also, you're going to get closer to who you're meant to be and what you're meant to do and the people who you're supposed to be around.
And so I see people like, Alison Russell and Brandi Carlile it gives me like joy because they are living according to their values, there's a possibility to have success and to not have to sacrifice who you are. I also. understand that there's a lot of tokenism involved in that, all of us are not allowed to rise at the same time, and so I feel like it's this constant seesaw dealing with these experiences of this is what, is empowering about this and this is what is exciting and also this is the reality of racism and this is the reality of sexism and, transphobia and homophobia and these things are also very real and so it's like holding both in your hands at the same time.
[00:32:16] Michaela: Yeah, and think there's an, element when considering or being willing to lose things for standing up for what your beliefs and your values are aligning with them. We talk a lot on this with each other and on this podcast about how saying no is actually saying yes to something else.
And I think when you. Really start to own and make clear who you are. It definitely is going to turn away a certain number of people. But the people that it's going to connect you with, I really believe that connection is going to be that much deeper and stronger and have even more value than if you're just lukewarm,
[00:32:53] Aaron: I use the terminology social media follow, fans have been following musicians since way before social media, whether it's like physically following them on tour or following what they're doing.
So I've been thinking a lot about like how, there's a lot of conformity in music these days and a lot of like, oh, well, I need to fit into this box or I need to fit into this box. the thing that is enticing to me is when the artist gives me something to follow that to me is when they are unique, they're uniquely themselves, they're unique in their viewpoint, and they're loud and strong it's compelling, it's exciting and it's tangible to me, you know, it's so very easily to be, a wet towel hanging on a clothesline and there's nothing to push back on there. It just sits there. And so when an artist in their music steps up and it's like, no, this is the music I make and it doesn't sound like anything else, or, this is my stance.
This is my experience in the world, and this is who I am in the world, I own that. That's really compelling, that's something that I can subscribe to, it's something that I want to be a part of, and be around, and energizes me.
speaking of being a multi faceted artist. I don't know if you're still writing, but you have written for a TV show on BET, is that correct?
[00:34:06] Kaïa: Yeah, I did. And you also write for TV and film,
[00:34:10] Aaron: not really like contractually like that for a specific show. I write music to be placed in TV and I've done some work on films as like an assistant composer. I have a good friend who lives in upstate New York,
[00:34:21] Kaïa: Okay, cool. We need to have an entire sidebar conversation about that,
Yeah.
curious. But yes I, I was a songwriter on a TV show called The Porter, which is a historical drama. And it aired on BET, that's right, and on CBC in Canada.
[00:34:37] Aaron: was at a one season thing, or is it a recurrent thing?
[00:34:40] Kaïa: Unfortunately, it was a one season thing because it got Canceled
[00:34:44] Aaron: Um, No,
[00:34:45] Kaïa: BBC, or BET decided not to renew, which is tough, but I also feel like the people that I met on that show are infinitely creative and are already working on, six other scripts. So it was definitely sad because it was the largest all black led Canadian.
TV show in history. Um, So it made history in that way and I'm glad that it got, approved for a season and,
[00:35:14] Aaron: Yeah. How'd you get involved? How'd you get involved with that?
[00:35:17] Kaïa: towards the beginning of 2020, end of 2019, I was super burnt out, I was actually writing an article about why touring was unsustainable, which was probably less an article and more like a long rant.
Um, And I had this mentor, Chris Bartosh, who had produced some of my records. And he had gone through this film composing program through the Canadian Film Center. And I'd always been really curious about pivoting to that side of things. and I applied to that program basically right before the pandemic hit.
it was this kind of strange convergence of things where. I suddenly had a bunch of time on my hands and I thought let's see if I get into this program. And if I get into this program, then I'm going to have to put a pause on touring. And the
pause just happened for me.
So I was in, in that program for about a year and a half it started full time and then it went to part time, and then while I was in that program this music supervisor who's been following my career, her name is also Kaia, bizarrely, and she reached out to me and said, would I want to try to pitch on this series, and they gave me a script and they explained the context and there were lots of characters who were Singers and songwriters in the show.
So I was writing for them.
[00:36:37] Aaron: Very cool. Was it much of a pivot from creating your own music or did it feel parallel?
[00:36:44] Kaïa: it actually felt easier in a lot of ways
Maybe because I realized that in my solo project I'm like a little Napoleon like I'm such a tyrant about what songs make it in and what song is good enough and there's so much emotionally intertwined with these songs that I found Writing with a specific goal, this is the character, this is their background, this is what they're trying to communicate.
It was just the simplest way to write, rather than like, what are my inner conflicts that I have to suss out? I wish someone would just go, this is Kaya, this is how she's
Yeah.
I wish someone would do that for me. I think, I was a good fit for it because I, play old time music.
was old time stuff and like jazz. And I felt I could nail the prompt pretty well. and they also, they gave me a chance, they give me time to. Get into it and, they trusted me and I think that's a huge part of it. think the confidence I felt in myself was also coming from them saying, we know you can do this.
We know you belong here.
[00:37:48] Aaron: That's amazing. Yeah, I'm sure that must have been huge. I would imagine for myself stepping into a role like that, I would have so much doubt talk about like imposter syndrome again, I'd be my own worst enemy in that situation. So I can imagine having a community that was so supportive and positive was massive.
[00:38:06] Kaïa: Yes, absolutely. And you know, I don't forget that, that was black people saying my name in rooms of opportunity, I think that was really intensely valuable to me. Because so much of my solo career was spent waiting for white people to give me opportunity, and then moving into challenging white people.
And so I think that it was very powerful. to feel that kind of camaraderie and that kind of love and empowerment. the self doubt did come in, but I had three and a half days to write the song. So, it was so quick that the doubt would come in after I submitted it and be like, oh man, was that okay?
and then they'd be like, yeah, that was great. That helped too, is like having that pace of the TV show, because I think left to my own devices, I might write it, be happy, and then go back and
agonize about it, which was not productive.
[00:38:56] Aaron: Yeah, even though I haven't, been contracted with a show, of the time I'm writing to a brief. And so there's that clear framework. It's a really weird framework to write music in. But I enjoy it, it's like the choice paralysis of like opening, apple music and there's any record ever made you're like, Oh, what do I want to listen to?
Versus here's these four records, which one do you want to listen to? So I like that. And then, yeah the speed and the turnaround and all of that, I've learned to be a lot less precious first idea, best idea most times, or quickly being like, Is this working or is this not?
And if it's not working, try something else. it's definitely can be a stressful way to create music. But it's really inspiring and really intriguing at the same time for me.
[00:39:41] Kaïa: Yeah, same. And definitely just learning some things that I could take into my own writing practice,
[00:39:47] Aaron: Yeah, can you share some of those? just gonna ask.
[00:39:50] Kaïa: I think you touched on it, that sort of preciousness of hovering over something and whittling at it I definitely have bought into the myth of the tortured genius and also that vulnerability the longer that I hover over it and make it perfect.
Then I can share it. Only when I do this will I be able to do that. And I feel like since I've started taking on some more, contractual work, I've been able to look at my songwriting practice as not such a tortured part of myself, and just an activity that I can do and that I can leave sometimes or come back to. And everything doesn't have to be so fraught and serious. just like laughing at some lyrics that I'll write that are hilarious. When you're trying to figure out something to rhyme with something else,
there are some hilarious things that come out that make you laugh. And just trying to appreciate those little moments a little bit more so that it can feel... like this agonizing chore and more maybe an activity that like a child would do where they're like, Oh, maybe I'll go do this for a while and I'll have some fun and then I'll go do that, I think that seriousness, it's paralyzing,
[00:41:01] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely one thing I struggled with writing for TV and then writing like I don't want to say like For an artistic endeavor, but you know what? I mean something that's gonna be released by an artist versus made to be on TV how much do I care about this?
If I try to move more quickly in this artistic endeavor, does that mean that I'm caring less about it, a way that I've been able to bridge that gap is to move quickly when I'm working like in the artistic projects but then to come back, a section of a song is like really bugging me, I'll work on a little bit and then move on to something else and.
Knowing that, Oh, I can come back to that. But like, sometimes I don't come back to that because I forget that it's a problem and then it's no longer a problem. You know what I mean? So I don't massage it to death. it's like when you say the word cucumber too many times and you're like, wait, is cucumber even a word I think
[00:41:46] Michaela: also this is a conversation I have a lot with my songwriting students the value that we put on our work, depending on if we felt like the process was easy or hard or fast or long and arduous. there's a very common thing to think, it's good if it was a long, hard process and then we just well, this can't be that good because it came so easily and so quickly.
And I think that's really challenging. I feel like there's songs of mine that have lived such a vibrant life and connected with more people than I ever imagined because when I wrote it. It just came out so quickly and easily, and then I've been like, Oh, maybe that's the actual trick the ones that are so Are the ones that connect. I don't think that's a hard and fast rule because I also think songs that are labored over for a long time also then Go on to live big lives and connect with a lot of people but that judgment we do is
[00:42:43] Aaron: interesting Isn't that an actual like Psychological phenomenon forget the name of it, but I read it in relation to Ikea furniture, where we psychologically think that the furniture is higher quality and more valuable because you have to put so much labor into putting it together. Yeah. That I worked hard on this. This is a valuable piece of furniture when in actuality it's a piece of cardboard wrapped in like one little piece wood veneer.
[00:43:07] Kaïa: yeah, that's really trippy. I wonder if it goes back to, some primordial wow, I toiled in the field for three hours and so I'm going to get this much more yield.
[00:43:17] Aaron: Mm
[00:43:18] Kaïa: You know,
[00:43:19] Aaron: Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:43:20] Kaïa: songs are so beyond that.
equation.
[00:43:24] Michaela: Yeah, but we still are stuck in that judgment value system, but I wanted to go back to something you said with talking about writing for the TV show of that, you said it wasn't lost on you that it was Black people giving you this opportunity and speaking your name in these rooms, and I feel like that can't be underestimated, the emotional impact On your creativity, when you're writing for your solo project, your songs that are so personal and reflective of things that feel important to you and your story and your family story and touching on racism and social justice, but you're far enough along in your career that you know what population is going to be receiving them, what rooms you operate in, what festivals, what the audiences are, what, and when those are primarily white audiences and white festival buyers and the folk Americana world, I would think because of just the way that I write It's impossible to completely discount who your audience is.
[00:44:30] Kaïa: Mm
[00:44:31] Michaela: So to go through that experience and then shift to writing for an all Black television show and for those storylines and know that the audience, the clientele, the receivers are different than maybe the majority or a lot of the receivers of your personal work might be at this moment in your career.
What that does to your emotional contribution to being able to create.
[00:44:59] Kaïa: Oh my god, that's a fantastic question. Wow. Thank you. so when I graduated college, I was in white spaces all the time. I went to a college in a rural area of West Virginia, and then I started singing, folk music that at the time I was leaning far more into traditional Appalachian stuff and so a lot of my fans were, I would say 98% white. And I think that I started to become a bit of a hermit. I would sing my songs, but I would, be absolutely faithless that they would be understood by this audience. I think I was actually quite pessimistic about my relationship with my audience. And I just felt there's such a wide gap between us. That you couldn't possibly understand what I'm singing about, I never vocalized it because you shouldn't, vocalize to your audience that you're not really,
[00:45:53] Michaela: guys aren't going to understand this,
[00:45:54] Kaïa: know,
[00:45:54] Michaela: I'm going to sing it for you anyways.
[00:45:56] Kaïa: Yeah, can you imagine introducing a song that way?
And I think that was a real, point of contention for me. Where several times I was like, I can't do this anymore. I can't go on the road anymore and perform in front of these white audiences who don't understand. I'm screaming into a void. This is not what I meant to be doing.
there were like these years of built up frustration. And I think what started to change was I just started to tell other Black performers how I was feeling.
Colleagues, we didn't even have to be that close. And the amount of immediate understanding that I got, you don't even have to say it, really. You're saying it, as you're talking, they're nodding, and you don't even have to finish your sentence.
Mm hmm. And that, I believe, is what saved me. I think that, just being able to speak to my colleagues in the music industry who were performing in a very similar genre that I was, and who had shared experiences, I think it speaks to the power of just not feeling so alone I've really prioritized those friendships, actually and tried to grow them from hey, let's see each other at a festival every once in a while on the road, to if you live in my city, let's go get coffee, or if I'm in your city, or do you want to hop on the phone, or do you want to do a zoom chat?
And I think I started really prioritizing I need those relationships in order to survive, in order to thrive, you know, I think we need people with shared experiences. I don't know if you feel the same, Mikayla, being working mom, being a touring mom,
It's you need those people to be like, I'm freaking out.
what do I do? This just happened to me.
And having someone be like, oh my god, I got you, girl. Don't
worry.
[00:47:38] Michaela: I've texted Layla McCalla so many times about like, what do you do with breast milk when you're touring?
[00:47:44] Kaïa: Yeah, and
[00:47:45] Michaela: it helps.
[00:47:45] Kaïa: it helps, and imagine if, you didn't have anyone else to talk to about that would be extremely lonely, that experience, I think, moved me closer into having more, professional relationships with black folks, more connective friendships with black women, and just not going around saying like, Oh, the world doesn't get me.
And so that means that I shouldn't invest or I shouldn't talk to anyone about how I'm feeling, I stopped being a hermit, and started realizing that my situation isn't that unique. There are many, many other musicians. musicians who are, playing the same venues or bigger,
Mm hmm. Mm so I feel like working on the Porter was, just an extension of that. It's just an extension of, being open to those professional relationships and not narrowing myself down to thinking like, all I'm going to do is perform in front of white audiences who don't understand me.
And I feel way more connected to my audience. I feel way more like, yeah, they might not get some of the racial stuff, they understand heartbreak, they understand, not knowing who you are in life, I got out of this frozen place of viewing everybody as a stranger and someone who I shouldn't even try because they won't even get it,
really that has sustained me and saved me and I just feel so much more optimistic about music and What we can do together,
Rather than isolating ourselves, isolating myself, like I need other people to survive and I especially need other black women to survive, so.
[00:49:14] Michaela: I don't think it's the responsibility of people to share their stories to educate others. But I think the incredible thing about art is that it's unique way to educate others on other people's experiences that is much easier to connect empathetically because of the emotion that is.
The vibrations of music. And then when you hear a story, like I feel like I learned, outside of my mom teaching me very explicitly about, kindness and acceptance. Art is what it is. It taught me about all these other experiences that people have had in the world and in our country that were so different than my little world that formed me intensely.
I still remember, being a child and reading. a book about the holocaust for the first time when I was like nine years old and the journey that took me on and those are such pivotal. I remember watching fried green tomatoes and learning what the KKK was and those stories through art changed who I am as a young white girl who had experience or no idea what it's like to be a Black person or a Jewish person.
And then, it opened doors for me to want to learn more, but it was those stories that were shaped through pieces of art that really like, connected me. I'll never forget hearing Nina Simone's song, Four Women, at the new school. I walked past our concert hall and a girl was singing it for her like semester recital and I was stopped in my tracks listening to every word.
And Again, I cannot personally relate to any character in that song, but I felt that emotion and that made me care deeply.
[00:51:07] Kaïa: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's something that I'm going to take with me too, like, when the pessimism comes in, which it always does.
I think, the opportunity to write on the Porter like, a way to, to understand that, I was not alone and that, I could write something and like you're saying mixed audiences are going to watch it or black audiences and white audiences, and maybe they'll take different things from it.
But that's okay.
You can put something out there and trust that people are going to receive it in the way that they're going to receive it and it'll affect them in one way or the other, Nina Simone is a great example, like Mississippi goddamn, or I wish I knew how it would feel to be free,
her singing those things that beyond her death,
to so many of us.
[00:51:50] Michaela: That's all the elements of music that are so important because her delivery, if you just explained that experience to someone who couldn't relate, they're going to feel it different than if you hear Nina Simone sing it and perform it and you hear that pain and the emotion.
that's what's so incredible about sharing stories through music.
[00:52:11] Aaron: not to relate this podcast is Nina Simone at all, but that's what we're trying to do with this is take, stories and experiences from our community and share them with our larger community you know, as the tide rises, so do all the ships.
so thank you for being here and sharing your experience and sharing your vulnerabilities your fears and what you've found, I know there's a lot of our listeners are going to. hear some of this and feel seen feel accepted. So thank you for sharing with us.
[00:52:39] Kaïa: Thank you for having me on. I love this podcast. I rated you guys five stars on Spotify. Okay.
[00:52:44] Aaron: Thanks for the plug. Thank you.
[00:52:47] Kaïa: Oh,