Katie Pruitt is a singer-songwriter on Rounder Records, NPR & NY Times acclaimed, americana award-nominated, and also the host of The Recovering Catholic podcast. We talk about how she navigated, learned, and grew from releasing her much anticipated debut record 1 month before the pandemic started, navigating the pressure to always have output, and the tools she uses to be able to explore heavy personal and emotional topics in her songs.
Katie Pruitt is a singer-songwriter on Rounder Records, NPR & NY Times acclaimed, americana award-nominated, and also the host of The Recovering Catholic podcast. We talk about how she navigated, learned, and grew from releasing her much anticipated debut record 1 month before the pandemic started, navigating the pressure to always have output, and the tools she uses to be able to explore heavy personal and emotional topics in her songs.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is still in its infancy, if you are brand new, thank you for checking us out. And if you're a returning listener, thank you for coming back.
[00:00:15] Aaron: Yeah. For those of you that are returning listeners, we love hearing your feedback. we read all the messages that we get if you haven't yet. Please consider taking 10 seconds to leave a rating on your platform or choice. These go a long way in getting new listeners to the show, and the more listeners we have, the more guests we have, the more guests we have, the more ideas we can share back with our community.
So please, it only takes about 10 seconds, and go ahead and give us a rating right now.
[00:00:35] Michaela: We're not your typical music promo show. We like to talk to artists in their off cycle times, so we focus on the behind the scenes tools and routines they found helpful in staying inspired, creative, and sane while building a career around their
[00:00:48] Aaron: art.
Yeah. With so much that's outside of our control in the music business, we wanted to focus on what is within our control. So we decided to invite our friends and some of our favorite artists on to have conversations about all the other times outside of the public eye and ask them the question of what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
[00:01:06] Michaela: And today's guest is the incredibly talented Katie
[00:01:10] Aaron: Pruitt. this is a special vacation edition of the other 22 hours. If you're watching on YouTube, you'll realize that Mikaela and I are not sitting in our studio in Nashville. We're actually on vacation in Maine and Katie joined us on vacation in Idaho. So as we note in the show, it's a very Telling glimpse into the thought process of musicians.
It's like, Oh, we're just on vacation. We'll just throw in this quick interview in here. Cause well, why not? We'll just do that real
[00:01:34] Michaela: quick. Cause really this is fun, it was so fun to get to talk to Katie. We've known her for a little bit. I still remember the moment I heard Katie sing for the first time in a friend's living room and I was in the kitchen and went.
Holy what, who is that? But Katie's an incredible singer songwriter. She is an Americana music association nominated emerging act of the year in 2020. She's been critically acclaimed by NPR and Rolling Stone. She's toured with people like. Brandi Carlile, Rustin Kelly, Chris Stapleton, she said, Shaky Graves, and she does a lot of incredible songwriting about pulling from her life as growing up in a conservative Christian community in Georgia, coming out as a gay woman and mental illness.
She does a lot of work that is
[00:02:20] Aaron: very vulnerable. Yeah, and she also has a podcast on that, recovering from a really religious upbringing that's on Apple Podcasts. It's a really great show, really great conversations on there if you haven't checked it out,
And kind of staying true to who Katie is, we just jumped into the deep end at the beginning and just kicked off the conversation with some casual talk on homophobia and white nationalism and general hateful.
[00:02:45] Michaela: How can you live in America today and not talk about that stuff if you are aware at all? It's pretty pervasive. But moved on to a more personal artistic work with Katie and talked about how Releasing her first debut record on rounder records before a month before the pandemic fully shut everything down, how that experience as devastating it was.
She has possibly has been really positive for her. Seems like it. Growth as a human and has really shifted her view of her career and why she makes music to begin with.
[00:03:18] Aaron: Yeah. You'll notice if you've listened to a few episodes of this show, a lot of our guests have been in the industry for a long time, back in the beginning of July, we had Alice Gerard as a guest who, shortly after that episode came out, she turned 89.
She released her first record in the 60s. We've had Rodney Crowell on here who released his first record in the 70s. And so Katie is a youngin for our guests, but she is wise beyond her years. That's a pretty formative experience. The record that she put out in 2020 was her legit first record.
It's not, the music business sleight of hand where it's like, Oh, debut record, but then you dig and it's actually like their third record. This is legit her first record. And then a month later it was the pandemic. And that was a monumental shift for everybody, but it seems like what Katie gleaned from that is just like years of wisdom, which makes this episode like one of the more tangible hands on.
Episodes that we have about, these are my processes. This is what I've learned This is how i've changed things. This is how I view things and it was like i'm still processing it and still learned so much balancing my identity between being a musician and being a human i'm still working on that every day or It's 2023 now and she still hasn't put out her second record, which, usually the industry is like, every 18 months put out another record and she shares some really amazing tools that she's found on how to slow down and avoid the pitfalls of urgency, which can just lead to lower quality stuff.
Not a lot of happiness.
[00:04:44] Michaela: very challenging to do in today's viral, landscape of create create, create.
[00:04:50] Aaron: Output output Output. Yeah, it wouldn't be a other 22 hours show if we didn't talk about social media for at least 15 minutes So, you know that's in there too Anyway, we're not gonna waste your time without further ado.
Here's our episode with Katie Pruitt
[00:05:02] Katie: How are
[00:05:03] Michaela: you?
[00:05:04] Katie: Good, I'm doing well. Yeah, I'm just chillin at my girlfriend's parents place in uh, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho which is basically Canada.
[00:05:13] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:14] Katie: Yeah, it's gotten better in, recent years. It's like this big melting pot of different people culturally. Cause there's a college in the city as well. So coming here in 2020 was like, whoa, there are definitely two sides of the aisle here.
Yeah. We've felt a little weird even walking downtown holding hands in Coeur d'Alene sometimes so, it's interesting, but they're pretty secluded, and they've got a good view of the lake we like it here.
[00:05:39] Michaela: Yeah, d'Alene is beautiful,
[00:05:42] Katie: handedly progressify. I know.
[00:05:46] Michaela: Yeah. seemed like with Oregon, Oregon has this super liberal progressive aspect to it and then also has the crazy,
[00:05:55] Aaron: yeah, what was that family? that like basically wanted to fight the US government for grazing land.
[00:06:00] Michaela: Yeah. And also a big place for white nationalists apparently.
[00:06:04] Katie: I don't know, it's crazy that still happens,
[00:06:07] Michaela: it's crazy. That's so much feels like it's getting worse.
[00:06:11] Katie: it's wild,
[00:06:11] Michaela: I'm a little dark on things these days.
[00:06:14] Katie: I feel you. It's hard not to be sometimes. Dan and I were at a restaurant, downtown Coeur d'Alene. And this was like a year or so ago. And we were there during pride during June. we're sitting at the bar. There's this table that was like decked out in rainbow gear and all this stuff.
And we're like, ah, and then. Out of nowhere these people wearing, tactical gear full on bulletproof vests, and guns, and all that stuff, come outside the restaurant I don't know what they were doing, and then, we were like, why are they here we were talking to our bartender, why the hell are they here, this is kinda scaring us, and he was like, I know, it's scaring me too, and they shouldn't be here, and all this stuff, and we're like, yeah totally, and then come to find halfway through the conversation, he was talking about the people in rainbow, and we were talking about the people in tactical gear, and we were like, What?
We just couldn't understand how he was, intimidated by these people who were just going out to eat trying to have a good time. I almost got up and left, and Dana was like no, no, no, let's give this a sec, and she's like, so have you ever left? And he was like, No, I don't think I ever want to leave, and we're like, okay, that's probably why you think the way you think.
You've never left, you've never wanted to get out, you've never wanted to change your perspective or meet people different than you. I don't know, it's just interesting when you talk to people one on one versus groups or like on the internet, you're able to dig at least slightly deeper, and at the end, I think he realized we were a couple and he was like, Oh not you guys.
And we're like, why not us? We're the same. we're literally the same as them. if you're not disarmed by us, why are you disarmed by people in rainbow? And like, If you looked a little closer, it was so interesting
[00:07:49] Michaela: it's the idea of the other and if the information that they've taken in is that particular other is threatening or, scary, then that's what it is. And when they meet people who are part of the classification of the other, but they go against their ideas, it's like, you're an exception.
You're a token, which, I don't know, I think a lot about the psychology behind all of this stuff and stereotypes and hate and prejudice and fascinating to me like why for some people coming in with, guns and, tactical gear is not scary, but people who. of the same gender and in a relationship with each other is scary.
It's confusing to me, but it's confusing to them that we think it's confusing.
[00:08:38] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:08:38] Katie: on paper the nonviolent threat is scarier than the violent threat.
the people with the guns, bro. Who are you talking about?
[00:08:47] Michaela: that probably has to go deeper into what they've been taught. I mean, I think a lot of it goes back to Christian, Programming of this is scarier because this is what they think is a sin so it's like a deep brain programming
[00:09:01] Katie: no, totally. I, I see your point and it's frustrating.
[00:09:05] Aaron: yeah, we're in Maine right now, which has a very like libertarian streak quintessential Maine, the stereotype is like, oh, it's very liberal. Everybody drives a Subaru. Everybody wears LL Bean. Everybody owns a sailboat and lives on the ocean, which like, 90% of that is pretty true.
But like, there's a large part of the state that people just live in the woods and I call Maine like the cul de sac at the end of America. Cause you're not going to pass through Maine to get anywhere, you know, you're get up here and you turn around and go back. So people live up here to like, have their space and be secluded.
Maine actually legalized same sex marriage on the ballot before the Supreme Court legalized it. People voted and they're like, no, this should be legal. Even though Maine has a lot of conservative thinking, they're basically like, Hey, don't tell us what to do and we're not going to tell you what to It gets this weird middle ground between the two where they're like, I don't want to tell you who you can marry. If you love the person, marry that person. don't come on my land because I've got four AK 47s and like it's a weird intersection of stuff up here
[00:10:00] Aaron and Michaela: Yeah.
[00:10:00] Michaela: we We were just on a run this morning and saw a dude in a big pickup truck drive by with two huge flags, the one that said let's go Brandon and the other was Trump and we were just like
[00:10:10] Aaron: That was a woman and her daughter.
Oh god.
[00:10:13] Aaron and Michaela: Oh my God.
[00:10:16] Katie: Yeah.
[00:10:16] Michaela: Anyways, hodgepodge of stuff everywhere.
[00:10:21] Aaron and Michaela: Just
[00:10:21] Katie: diving in, diving into the, to the politics early on. I
[00:10:25] Aaron: Yeah. Straight
[00:10:26] Katie: up.
[00:10:27] Michaela: yeah, that's what we want to do. And that's one of the first things I kind of want to start with is that, first off, thank you for agreeing to talk to us and be on this, especially on your vacation this is such a testament to also how musicians like we're both on vacation, but we're like, yeah, but let's do a podcast interview.
Like we're never, we're all never like completely. off from work. The line is very blurry because also we like doing this stuff. But the premise of this podcast, from the start, we're like, okay, we want to have people who've been in the music business for 10 plus years who've put out a lot of records and kind of evolved through it and youngest artist I think so far that we've had and you have one record on a label is that you're only record or is that like one of
[00:11:15] Katie: at the moment, but I'm planning on another one out that I just finished. how young do you think I am? I'm just curious.
[00:11:21] Michaela: Are you like 29 or 30?
[00:11:23] Katie: Yeah, I'm 29. Okay,
[00:11:25] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
[00:11:26] Katie: Um,
[00:11:27] Michaela: young. We're
[00:11:28] Katie: 37. Yeah. swear to God, I was playing a festival in somewhere in California last week and I was on stage and someone just goes, how old are you? just like,
Classic.
I'm 12. What the fuck do you think?
Old enough to have some life
[00:11:42] Aaron and Michaela: experience to sing about some
[00:11:44] Katie: shit,
[00:11:44] Aaron: To put into context, the episode that came out this week was with Alice Gerard, who in... Two days is turning 89. So she's got a few years on you. Yeah,
[00:11:53] Michaela: I've always gotten that too. I think since I've become a mother, like I recently had someone be like, what do you're not even 30.
And I'm like, no, dude, I'm 37. They're like, what? but this is not to knock. age or to say that if you're young, you don't have a lot of valuable things to contribute. the premise of it for us was this when you're in the business of putting out records, the things you learn over time nothing replaces the time.
But. One of the reasons we wanted to talk to you was because of, one, the things you talk about in your music, and how much you share, and the kind of things you're exploring. But also, there's something to be said about an experience where your first record is on a label, you have a team of people, and you have instant business insertion into the industry and from the outside looking in looks like pretty quick growth and positive reception from the start because that's a whole other bag of shit to deal with that's can be complex
[00:12:56] Katie: it was. And what made it even more complex was, so I had assembled a team I'd say starting in 2018, agent, publisher, label manager, all that stuff, recorded the record 19, released it February 22nd of 2020. No fucking clue, from that day.
It was like, oh cool. Like this is gonna be great We got the put we got everything, all our ducks in a row I had poured my fucking heart and soul my life into this first record cuz your first record you just get to cherry pick the best songs you've ever written in your life
right.
the through line right there is like this is just my true real Experience, And also the fact that the record is called Expectations. I'm thinking like, okay I'm expecting to go on a tour. I'm expecting all of the things that everyone's been telling me are gonna happen, for a year. And then none of it happens. But it happens.
It was like a two sided coin on one hand, I didn't get to physically, in person like, really experience getting to go on my first Headline Tour as I'm releasing the record, but the outpouring of love and response from the the internet and like people sitting at home, listening to the record and I really tried not to take that lightly. this is a really hard time for everyone globally. people are. Listening to my record and telling me what it means to them and all this stuff and it's like I get all the time like your record got me through the pandemic, that's not a thing that I expected the record to get people through but if it did that's a blessing in disguise, but Having to wait like a year and a half to properly tour it and all this stuff was just super delayed and I know that I'm not the only one to experience that
[00:14:34] Michaela: Yeah, that doesn't discount your feelings, though, because I feel like we all do that. We all have our own story of you know, I feel that way about my career that it was like, Oh, things were just starting to hit for me, it was after like, four records. and then it's all gone. and then you feel like but I can't really own those feelings, because that happened to everybody.
But I think Your experience of what it did to you is still very valid.
[00:14:59] Katie: think that if I had all the initial like, insta gratification of great record, and great tour, and and I got to experience all that in person, I don't know, I think I'd be a different person, honestly.
Cause I feel like it helped me really evaluate, why am I doing this? It's because it's affecting individuals and helping individuals, just like it's helping me, it like, almost, made that record hit deeper for me and for people that got to finally see it live, that it meant something, too.
And then same with me in my own life, Obviously time off like we all did and I went camping with my girlfriend and my dog and just Had to literally force myself turn off the artist brain like stop it. Just be still because we all have to the discipline that it takes to just sit fucking still sometimes can teach you a lot if you're paying attention.
So I think that time was really Impactful for me as a person and my growth sort of the way that I've approached the next phase, too, of not rushing it. if the momentum dies for a second it's fucking okay.
you have to really pay attention to only what you're doing. almost keep your blinders on and just be like that's great for them and Genuinely be happy for other people's success and other people having a moment because that's gonna happen forever and ever focusing solely on How do I feel today how do I put this in a little time capsule that's gonna live past today,
[00:16:25] Aaron: did it take you a lot of work to get to that perspective?
[00:16:27] Katie: Yeah. I think it's ongoing for everybody. we live in such an output industry and especially like living in Nashville itself, people, Nashville, you all the time, everywhere you go so when's the record coming out?
How's tour? So where you been? So when are you going out next? the same questions over and over again. And it's never Hey, how's your dog? You
[00:16:46] Aaron: Yeah. Right.
[00:16:47] Katie: how's the house doing? I mean, Sometimes people will ask that when they realize oh shit, all we've been talking about is music business shit, but the pandemic just really made me like poor time and energy and love into the friendships like, you know what, these people would love me whether my record did well or not, and those are the people I want to keep around.
[00:17:06] Michaela: we were just talking, I feel constant pressure to be doing stuff all the time. even when I'm spinning in circles. And so just to turn off and be here, I've deleted Instagram off my phone.
and I feel the change in like two days of not taking in. A thousand pieces of information. It's it's just rapid fire information that creates chaos in my brain that I can't be calm. And we were sitting outside yesterday and I was like, it's funny because I think about that first year of the pandemic and I think it was one of the happiest times of my life because.
we went camping all the time. We went camping with friends. We went, biking. We were like visiting my family outside. Like we were just living life. And all of our friends were also super present because nobody was touring. the friendships that were so present in my life at that time have fallen off because they've all jumped back in, headfirst into their careers and it's super consuming and hard to keep in touch it's really made me think Oh, weird, there's things about this lifestyle everyone just constantly on the go, building their careers and touring like there's things I strongly dislike, and the pandemic showed me that.
[00:18:19] Katie: The pandemic was the first time it was culturally acceptable to do nothing So it's like if you were doing nothing. Have that internal voice being like, come on, say something or make something, it was accepted to like, wait this out, ride this out.
And I think that's why if you were in a place where you didn't have financial stress which I was really lucky to have, and I know other people weren't. Mm Then you were able to just turn off your brain for a second and, it was also a very chaotic time though, politically and all that stuff, so it was weird, but, camping and all that, was like, oh cool,
[00:18:52] Michaela: us, it lasted six months, and then all sorts of crazy shit happened in our lives, but that little six months was really sweet.
[00:18:59] Katie: yeah,
[00:19:00] Aaron: Yeah. It was like maybe eight months. We got like eight months in there. Yeah. It was good.
[00:19:03] Katie: so what are the,
the things that you dislike, besides the go go go aspect of it, cause I mean I probably agree with you.
[00:19:10] Aaron: Yeah, that's a big one. It's just the constant hamster wheel. the thing I've been ruminating on lately is everybody says do what you love for work and you'll never work a day in your life. And I'm like, man, do what you love for work and you'll have horrible work life balance and you'll have no boundaries and you'll work all the time.
It would just be completely spent emotionally and mentally and physically all the time.
[00:19:29] Aaron and Michaela: Yep.
[00:19:29] Michaela: I also think that the nature of the business especially with the aspect of social media, where we can quickly get response, whether it's positive or negative I think it takes a lot of work and growth to stay a super grounded person throughout.
But I think all of the energy around needing attention, or validation, or getting things, or feeling like you're okay because you're achieving, or feeling shitty about yourself that you're not achieving, I've seen how that has, negatively impacted myself and my personality and how I treat people.
And I see in friends who I love deeply. When they get caught up, how much it negatively impacts them and their personality. and that's what I don't like when I'm like, man, I think if we took this out, during the pandemic, I would probably love this person so much, but I can see that they're on like the drug addiction of Chasing a need and the social dynamics of Nashville of hanging out with the cool kids That stuff is like still very Present and that's what I don't Like about this career and probably every industry has it in
[00:20:45] Katie: Yeah. It's like high school kind of, high school never ends in a way, but yeah I feel you on the, instant gratification of posting something constantly and getting that dopamine high, you know, that that's Instagram. That's what that app is designed to do and I think it was Jim James or something who was like, it's a tool.
You pick it up and you put it down. I have tried when I post now, posting and then putting my phone down for at least 30 minutes, as long as I can stand turning the notifications off so I'm not getting every single so and so liked your thing, not checking or not doing the hide like thing helps, Numerically judge yourself that's so stupid,
[00:21:26] Michaela: Yeah, but we all do it.
[00:21:29] Katie: Yeah, I really wish it was just something that was like man I like this song and I'm gonna share it and I don't really care beyond that, then just go about your day I also try to post if I'm about to go into therapy or I'm about to go do something for An hour at least I'll be like, okay, I'm posting this and I'm not looking at it Posting it and then picking it up every five fucking seconds to check is not healthy
[00:21:49] Aaron: the end of the day you realize you've wasted like three hours just looking at this thing and you're just like, I could have done so much it's way more fun.
[00:21:57] Katie: Yeah, exactly. I think just like setting boundaries for yourself and figuring out what works for you because whether we like it or not, these are the tools in place and they do help us in ways. But they obviously have super negative side effects, so figuring out what the line is and just calling ourselves on it of like, oh fuck I just spent three hours I can't do this again
[00:22:19] Aaron: Yeah, for me, I like to get to what is the root cause of all of this and try to fix it there. for me, it makes bigger impact if I can really get down to the root, it fixes all of these other like pains and anxieties around it. And the thing for me, and this is constant work is like realizing the number of likes views, engagement, all of that is not a response to.
My music or me or my artistry or anything like that. It's literally a response to how well I played the Instagram algorithm game. there's this really complex algorithm, AI computer control thing that shows it to people based on like how long they look at it, like all of this.
So all that's really showing you when you get down to it, it's like how well you pleased that algorithm, if you get, thousands of views and hundreds of likes, it's like. oh, the robot's really happy, but the way we internalize it is like, this song is really good.
I'm doing so good. And it's not that at all.
[00:23:14] Michaela: Or I'm worthy I have to often like walk back whenever I get into an anxiety spiral of seeking validation from like an app or a scene of people or whatever. And I'm like, okay, what is it that I'm really looking for right now?
I'm looking for approval. I'm looking for love. I'm looking for validation. What are the places that I'm looking for this from? Is it all these nameless people and strangers? And will that validation from these people... Actually fill me up or yeah, it won't and it's because it's endless and I'm like, so what do I need?
I need love and validation. Do I have love and validation from myself? Yes, or if I don't how do I get that? Do I have love and validation from my partner who I spend my life with day in and day out and who knows? everything about me? Do I have love and validation from my daughter? Do I have it from my parents?
I try and like bring my circle smaller I talk about this a lot of I'm a military kid. So I feel like I've been socially trained to survey a room and be like, survival mode, who do I need to be like friends with to, Be cool. And it's still deeply ingrained in me, And I have to really stop and walk it back and be like, do you have the love and
[00:24:24] Katie: validation
[00:24:25] Michaela: from yourself? Do you have it from your partner? Do you have deep, close friendships? Yes. Then you don't need to seek this approval from all these people I'm like, who was I fixated on getting approval from five years ago?
I know there were people, I can't remember their names now.
[00:24:39] Katie: I remember, during the pandemic and when the record was, first coming out. the write ups and comments and the likes and all that stuff it didn't fill me up. All it did was, like, make me sad, and that was, like, a different time, because it made me sad because I didn't get to experience it in person.
But I think there's something to, learn there. we're so invested in this. Robot, really the main way we get validation and love is in person with actual humans And ourselves and like you said make your circle smaller I that's beautiful and i'm gonna take that and use that hopefully
[00:25:14] Michaela: so when you were saying, being conscious about down for your second record, especially when you're plugged into the machine of the industry, hurry up and follow up the record. Like you got to feed the algorithm.
Keep putting music out. Where have you been? , what is the actual work? what has that looked like for you and what does that look like on a daily basis?
[00:25:33] Katie: Wow I feel like it's been a big ebb and flow for me for the last couple years since I couldn't tour the record until like almost two years after it was released. I was just playing tour catch up for all of 2021 and most of 2022 I had some songs, but I definitely didn't have a full record and my team was like, all right, time to put out the next record.
I'm like, what the fuck? I haven't been home for more than a week at a time in the past two years, So I think I realized okay, I'm not one of those artists that can write on the road. Because to me, it's a whole different mindset to me. It's take care of your body, drink lots of water.
And there were moments when I tried after show, stay up till 3am writing something. And it was like, okay, I'm exhausted. I'm not filled up. I don't have as much to say, so yeah, at the beginning of this year, aside from the Kayamo cruise, which I saw you guys on, was like, I need to stay home.
I have to stay home. And Knowing that you have a deadline, almost helped me more, because although it was super, super stressful, of like, okay, I have to get this record written, I forced myself to come up with routines, and also give myself breaks, Another thing I learned is hey, if you can't do it, if it's not happening, the least productive thing you can do is beat yourself up and be mean to yourself.
Because that is something I think, I did a lot, especially once the machine got going again and once touring happened again, and I couldn't write songs because I was so fucking physically exhausted. I was just so mean, the internal dialogue in my head was just you're not good at this.
and it's like, dude, no. First of all, cut that shit out. you need to speak kinder to yourself. when I would say that stuff or think that stuff, I'd be like, no, shutting it down. I can do this. I'm going to do this. I'm gonna finish a verse and a chorus tonight before I go to bed.
No matter how good it is, I'll decide if it's good in the morning. And if it's not good, who gives a flying fuck?
Yeah. Mm hmm.
it's just a song. And it's just me practicing going through the motions of writing a song. And, God, I have to write 10 or more probably 15 songs honestly at least 15 verse choruses before I get to something where I'm like That's what I'm trying to do
So it really is a practice and I I've learned for myself okay I need to get into a day in day out routine of writing for these Months, I'm gonna be writing and yeah, I'll go out and like grab a beer with a friend or go walk with my dog in the park or you know I obviously need to break it up with things because you can't be doing that all the time Or you'll literally drive yourself crazy, which I've done
But honestly, I've been making a list of okay, three things I want to get done. usually that includes write a song, and then the other two are like, I don't know, make yourself dinner, go on a walk, whatever exercise. But like just keeping that list small instead of 15 things long, I think has helped me Focus on What are the top things that I want to do today?
And then it's okay cool I can cross this off whether the song's good or not I did it and i'm gonna wake up and i'm gonna do it again tomorrow And i'm probably gonna use some of the language or thoughts or feelings that I pulled from that idea I'll use it tomorrow, I gave myself a deadline at the beginning of this year, and I was like, I'm gonna finish writing my record, and I've got 10 songs in the can, which I'm grateful for, and I'm excited for, and, I'm the type of person that's probably not gonna stop pushing myself until my label's like, you gotta stop and turn it in, so I'm continuing to write up here, and just trying to see what else maybe pops up, but, I think setting goals and setting deadlines for yourself, even though that's seems rigid
Mm For a creative person and an emotional person like me, I have to.
[00:29:20] Aaron: I work really well on a deadline too and you said so much great stuff in there. The one thing that comes to mind with like setting goals or setting like a small to do list rather than just you can brain dump everything that you need to do, but understand that's just like a pool of things to then make your daily list and pick a few things.
I heard somebody the other day say. That, you can say as many affirmations as you want to yourself to build your confidence and build your self esteem, but what really, concretely builds your self esteem and your confidence in yourself is an undeniable stack of evidence that you are who you say you are.
So if you're like, if you're like, I'm a songwriter, you write these songs every day, they might not be good and that's fine. You're still writing songs. whether it's just a verse, you know Whether it's a stack of 30 different verses and like half of a course you're still writing all This is still like your intellectual property.
your creativity on paper. Like I am creating this I can do this
[00:30:14] Katie: also think something that's helped me is stop thinking that I'm a songwriter all the time. I'm only a songwriter when I'm writing songs. The other part of my life is being a girlfriend. Being a good friend, showing up for people, calling my parents every now and then, you know. being an older sister.
Those are the other things in my life that... I want to identify as and actually be present for because so much of my early career I was just not there I would be with my friends and I would Just be thinking about a song and I still do this and I catch myself on it, i'm somewhere else in my mind, even though there's people around me and I could be drawing information memories for writing a song, but I'm consumed and caught up in my head and I'm not there, I want to be here if I'm here, not only a songwriter I'm so much more than that,
[00:31:03] Michaela: that's a really Beautiful place to come to because I think, especially a business where your work is your art is your identity and I think it's really easy for people to have this pressure of Oh, if I'm an artist, if I'm going to survive, I have to be creating all the time and to say, man, yeah, I do that, but there's all these other parts of me.
and they're just as, if not more important, and I still can build a career because I feel like there can often be this expectation or intention of no, in order to do this, it has to be your everything. And I hear that from friends all the time especially women, a lot of female friends of mine have been like, Oh, it's even harder for us.
So if we want to survive this has to be our everything and always thought it's either career or personal life It's either career or family
[00:31:54] Katie: What are you going to write about if you don't have a personal life?
[00:31:58] Michaela: Yeah, the pace if you have a really rich personal life At least in my experience, it feels impossible to keep up a pace where you're like. Constantly outputting work constantly creating work, constantly recording it, then sharing it, going on tour.
It's like, well, you need time and space to really give yourself to these other parts of your life to then be able to write. So maybe your pace is going to be slower than what, your label head or manager or thinks it should be, but how much better and deeper are your songs going to be?
[00:32:30] Aaron: And isn't it like the classic like tortoise and the hare thing where like your pace might be slower But it's sustainable because you have this balance emptying this cup you're filling this cup up and it's just a self perpetuating thing that like, Zoom out 30 years and you have this massive collection of work, whereas, you know, you can sprint and be like, one direction where you're a firework and it's amazing and you're huge and make millions of fans and millions of dollars and then you don't exist
[00:32:59] Michaela: anymore.
But then you go on to be Harry Styles.
[00:33:02] Aaron and Michaela: yeah.
[00:33:04] Katie: You know. The pace that we want to go is exactly that and obviously the pandemic I think set us all back in a lot of ways just time wise I think we all, everybody's like, Oh, we lost a year, we had all this time, but like everyone was processing something that was
[00:33:20] Aaron and Michaela: so
[00:33:21] Katie: we didn't expect to happen and no one knew how to deal with it.
And
Mhm. Mhm.
It's been three years since I released a record, and I think that I've had to unlearn the urgency that society and the industry has put on me of like, hurry up, dude, it's been three years come on, what are you doing, Instead be like, I'm doing it, I'm doing it at my own pace, and I am doing it, and I'm going to do it.
And I'm going to put it out. once it's out, nobody's gonna be like, Wow, it's three years? Like, of two? What the fuck?
[00:33:51] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. my deep fandom is, Iris DeMent. I love Iris DeMent so much. And she just put a new record out for the first time in, I don't know, decades in her 60s. And she was like, I've read interviews with her where she's I don't put out a record unless I feel like I really have something to say, and I don't constantly have things to say.
And I just finished Lucinda Williams memoir, and if you want a beautiful example of things happening in your own pace, her life is just, an incredible story of just it happened when it was supposed to happen. there were many years between her records.
[00:34:26] Aaron: Or Fiona Apple comes up a lot too. Yeah. She just disappears for like a decade. And then here's a brilliant record. And everybody's like, wow. And she's like, Nope, not going to play any shows either.
[00:34:36] Katie: yeah. It's just, there's so many different ways to do it. I'm friends with a lot of Artists that TikTok is their main like, gotta go viral, and one of my friends they had a viral moment recently and they were like, it's fucking exhausting, dude.
I'm tired and I'm like, yeah, no wonder. Cause it's a bow and arrow. when you're doing a full length, you're winding up all the way back. For like a year and a half or two years, three years for me. And then you release and then it's okay, that's going a further distance because I did all this personal work and built up all this momentum and it can shoot farther for longer because.
I have more to stand on, but like when you're doing TikTok, it's just little like, you know, you're
[00:35:19] Michaela: a million arrows.
[00:35:19] Katie: little shots. Yeah,
[00:35:21] Michaela: Oh my God.
[00:35:21] Katie: Yeah.
yeah, no wonder your arms tired because you're constantly shooting them, and it's one way to think that eventually they'll be able to sit back and be like, okay, taking a break they're going to have to.
that does it that way is just going to have to be like, all right, got to go away for at least. A few months, you know, or a month even. I look at that way of doing it and I'm like, God, I would be exhausted, but I also respect the hell out of people that have that in them and aren't drained by it, that's amazing.
But I learned that the model that I'm in That's not how I can do it and be fulfilled and have time for my own life at the same time.
[00:35:56] Aaron: Yeah. I mean, That's the name of the game to me. It's just understanding what your strength is and What feels easy, relatively easy,
[00:36:03] Aaron and Michaela: Yeah, maybe not easy, but yeah,
[00:36:06] Aaron: easy, to me like, anything viral, just saying that word makes me exhausted. So that wouldn't work well for me,
[00:36:12] Katie: trying to recreate it After it happens, it was viral because it was special and, you'll probably have another viral moment that's special, but forcing it, is gonna wear you out.
[00:36:22] Michaela: Yeah, and just thinking about, constantly being out there. I've had these fears of like, Oh, am I going to like go away and be one of those people that people are like, whatever happened to her?
when I've thought about people who were like out there and then disappeared I think I thought about it in a sad way of Oh yeah, they just disappeared. only recently I've been like, they're probably living a great life.
[00:36:43] Aaron and Michaela: Yeah, probably fine. Like,
[00:36:46] Katie: Better.
yeah.
[00:36:48] Michaela: They're just not showing us everything.
[00:36:51] Katie: Some things you are allowed to keep to yourself, I think,
[00:36:55] Michaela: Yeah. One thing I was thinking about with you is when you're like catching up with touring and bigger experiences and you've gotten to perform with your, heroes like Brandi Carlile. One part of this is pulling the curtain back, but are there things that you've experienced in your career that maybe you had hoped for, that have exceeded your expectations of what you thought they would be like?
And then the other way, are there things that you've experienced that you were like, wow, I thought that was going to feel a lot bigger, better than it
[00:37:23] Katie: that's a good question.
I think sometimes as humans, we have to compartmentalize, because otherwise, if we felt everything in every big moment we would freak out. when I recently played Red Rocks, I was Opening, first of three, there was that big hailstorm the night before, and...
I wasn't really thinking about Oh, I'm playing Red Rocks. This is a crazy thing that's happening. I was literally just treating it like any other show. I was like, all right, sound check, line check, let's do it. And then I just did it. it didn't hit me until a few days after, like I played Red Rocks.
That's crazy. it didn't register with me. It just felt like another show, which sounds like. little jaded or like unappreciative. But when you're in the fight or flight got to play the show, got to sound good. you're just fighting through the line check.
you're just going a million miles a minute and there's no real time to like, sit there and be like, wow, this is something I've wanted to do forever, that's happened to me a lot, I think, when I'm in the moment itself, to turn off the wow part of my brain, or else I can't like, focus on the work I'm supposed to be doing.
unless I'm, like, a guest singer in Brandy's set, or, when I hopped up on stage with Shakey at Red Rocks that night, I was like, wow, this is crazy. Also, because the crowd was, five times bigger, So I think once my personal set is over and I get to just bounce around and jump up on stage, then it's like, okay, this is fucking awesome, you know?
Mm hmm. I've had moments like that with Brandy too, where I'm on stage and, watching her do her thing, and then waiting for, whenever I jump in with her, but looking out at that crowd is this is fucking crazy.
like make The crowd sing and harmonize, and she's always like, Watch this. I'm it's pretty funny. She's like, this is gonna be fuckin awesome. Watch this. She's like a kid in a candy store. I feel like that's a person that doesn't take a single moment for granted.
But then, I'm sure she gets into work mode the same as I do. And has to come up for air and be like, Wow, this is incredible what I get to do. But,
yeah.
I think when you're so focused, sometimes you lose sight of the moment.
[00:39:22] Michaela: has there been a time when you've been like, oh, this is something I've been idealizing in my head, and then you like experience, and you're like, Okay. there's a Robin Williams quote where he like won an academy award and he's like the down from the academy award came literally the next morning just where you realize oh, these things are just things.
[00:39:40] Aaron: Yeah. For me, I'm less of a side man now.
I spend most of my time in the studio producing records and all but for the majority of my life. that was my goal, I want to play with bigger bands. I want to play arena shows. I want to do all this. And I got the opportunity in 2017, was out two weeks opening for the Dixie Chicks playing arenas.
it was a dream come true. You know, I was like, Oh, this is amazing. Get to play big shows, get to do all of that. And it sucked. band I was playing with was cool. We all got along really well. It was amazing to play in front of that many people and feel that energy, but like you got to show up at like noon and then you're just like in this hockey venue for like eight hours and you get 30 minutes on stage maybe to line check I'd rather play the basement to be honest, a really sweaty small room that sounds really good and you feel the energy like it just felt so disconnected that I was like, that is not anything I thought it was going to be whatsoever.
[00:40:30] Katie: I feel you. I guess I haven't played many, I've played a stadium once, but other than that I've never played an arena thing. Uh,
Yeah.
[00:40:39] Michaela: An arena
[00:40:39] Katie: thing. an arena thing. I can, I remember like being on ears cause I hadn't been on ears before opening for Chris Stapleton first of four, you know, it's like, yeah, you get 20 minutes. And yeah, on ears. I couldn't feel the crowd, but I was just like, I'm just going to rock the fuck out up here and hope that it translates.
it's a crazy feeling being on ears and being so far away from the crowd versus a basement, monitors, intimate room, you can hear everything, you can hear someone cough, you know, Yeah.
I definitely think I.
Probably prefer that way. I think that most Artists, even Jason Isbell's like i'm not playing Bridgestone. i'm gonna play six nights at the Ryman i'd rather do that and feel like intimately connected with the crowd than up on a big, Jumbotron,
[00:41:25] Michaela: saw Jason Isbell tweet recently 20 years ago, he told his booking agent that he wanted to be big enough to play arenas, but not ever play them.
[00:41:34] Aaron and Michaela: yeah, that's cool.
[00:41:35] Michaela: yeah, it's
[00:41:36] Aaron: don't enjoy going to arena shows, as an audience member. It feels fake, I'd rather sit in my living room and just really turn up the record.
[00:41:44] Michaela: I am an unabashed, super fan of Shania Twain. And I saw her at Bridgestone and I was like, this is such a bummer. Like, I want to see Shania Twain at, the Ryman.
[00:41:55] Katie: fucking honky tonk
Yes! Exactly. Yeah.
Back in the day.
[00:42:00] Michaela: Yeah, exactly.
[00:42:02] Aaron: Yeah. That's the thing about live music to me. It's such a unique art form. it happens right there in the moment and it takes both sides. It takes both the artist and the audience. If you have a great artist and a shitty audience, the show is going to suck. And if you have a bad band and a great audience, the show is going to suck.
You need both people to show up and do their thing. And it feels great.
[00:42:22] Michaela: Yeah.
well,
I wanted to ask you talked about how you have. Discovered that you can't write on the road and that you really need to like designate space for yourself and take care of yourself.
And a lot of your songs at least on your first record have been really vulnerable exposing, deep work. Have you found that the songwriting itself is the emotional work for you, or do you have to do other emotional work to be able to reveal, share, access that stuff in your songs?
[00:42:52] Katie: Definitely the second one. I have to like talk things out a lot to figure out how I feel about something. That's why talk therapy is so helpful. honestly, for that first record, I had to go have, conversations with my parents over and over again, before a lot of those songs were able to, happen, it was definitely a lot of work in my personal life
[00:43:13] Aaron and Michaela: to be able to
[00:43:13] Katie: say that stuff. And also to communicate to my parents, so many songs were about them and my upbringing like, have this back and forth of hey, this is how I felt at one point. it was definitely process of talking to them and them opening up to me and
[00:43:29] Aaron and Michaela: me opening up to
[00:43:30] Katie: them
For those songs to be able to exist.
[00:43:32] Michaela: that's really interesting to hear and this is why I love these conversations because I feel like every writer and artist is so different and every time I hear from somebody about their process that's different than mine, I'm like, Oh, cool. And then when I hear people who I feel similar to, I'm like, Oh, that makes me feel better because I'm of that ladder camp.
I remember being on tour with the Wood Brothers we were all getting to know each other and I was telling Oliver was telling the whole band about my story of the last two years of my mom having a stroke when I was pregnant and becoming a mother and they were just like, holy shit.
And Oliver was like, man, I bet you've written so many songs though. And I was like, not a one. And I have felt Man, maybe there's something wrong with me that I can't. And I've only literally just two days ago wrote my first song, about. the whole thing. And now I'm like, Oh, I've been doing extensive therapy and doing a lot of healing.
And I've literally not been able to sit down and talk about that in song form. I can talk about it a lot in therapy or with friends or on the podcast and share like constantly, but when you put it into the form of a song. And you're distilling it down to like a few words to encapsulate the magnitude of your experience.
It's so much more vulnerable that I've just have not been able to go near it
[00:44:49] Katie: I think that a songwriters and just people in general who are processing things you have to like express it and explain it and talk about it in so many different ways before you can build up that backlog of. of language in your mind to emotionally connect with the experience.
Cause a lot of the time, when really hard emotional things are going on I shut off. I'm like, wait, nope, I'll think about this or cry about this later. Can't do it right now. You know? And I think, you have to just talk about it in a lot of different... Ways before you can connect with the poetry aspect of it because it really is like a different language
[00:45:25] Aaron: I think that's a beautiful spot to call it and wrap this up
Thanks for taking time out of your vacation to sit down with
[00:45:31] Michaela: us for a while. Jumping in right from the start, talking about white nationalists and uh, racism and homophobia and you know,
[00:45:39] Katie: the whole can of worms
[00:45:41] Michaela: Thank you so much for giving us your time and being so open and honest. We really appreciate it.
[00:45:46] Katie: of course. Thanks. for having me guys