Laura Veirs is a prolific singer-songwriter with over 14 albums released on her own label as well as Nonesuch Records and Bella Union, is a member of case/lang/veirs (w/ Niko Case & kd lang) and is a painter, (brief) podcast host, and author of a children's book on Elizabeth Cotton. We talk about staying aware of the beauty and joy that surrounds you, planning (and taking) a sabbatical year as a self-employed creative, ceding control of your social media accounts, stage fright, running your own international label, maintaining ownership of your rights, being a tortoise surrounded by hares, and much more.
Laura Veirs is a prolific singer-songwriter with over 14 albums released on her own label as well as Nonesuch Records and Bella Union, is a member of case/lang/veirs (w/ Niko Case & kd lang) and is a painter, (brief) podcast host, and author of a children's book on Elizabeth Cotton. We talk about staying aware of the beauty and joy that surrounds you, planning (and taking) a sabbatical year as a self-employed creative, ceding control of your social media accounts, stage fright, running your own international label, maintaining ownership of your rights, being a tortoise surrounded by hares, and much more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:07] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and since this show is still pretty new, thank you so much for checking us out. If it's your first time, welcome. If you're a returning listener, thank you for coming
[00:00:22] Aaron: back.
Yeah, if you are a returning listener, we have a very simple, quick ask for you.
We really enjoy making this podcast and the way that we can keep going is by getting more listeners. The more listeners we have, the more guests we can get, and the more guests we have, the more ideas we can share with you. So if you have a favorite episode, if you could just take a second and pass that on to somebody that'snever heard our show before, that goes a really long way in us being able to sustain this show.
And we'd really appreciate that.
[00:00:48] Michaela: And we're not your typical promo show. We're not music journalists we're not promoting records or latest tours. We want to have honest, real conversations with other artists about basically what we don't post on social media. We want to talk about the off cycle times, the behind the scenes tools and routines that they've found helpful in staying inspired, creative, and sane while building a career around their art.
[00:01:15] Aaron: And as we all know, there's so much in this business that is outside of our control. And so we like to focus on what is within our control, being our mindsets are what we create. so with that in mind, we approach our guests with the general question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
[00:01:35] Michaela: And today's guest is Laura Viers, and right out of the gate, you can hear how excited I am. Laura Viers has been a personal inspiration for me for a long time. I've always just thought the little bit that I've known about her life and the way that she lives it is something I've kind of held up as a model, and this conversation Me right.
I would say,
[00:02:02] Aaron: you'll hear us in there, I definitely just call it out that we are talking to a 50 year old Michaela in this episode.
[00:02:10] Michaela: Laura's incredible, so I take that as a huge compliment, Laura has put out, I think, 14 plus records. She owns her own record label. She's been in a band with Katie Lang and Nico Case.
She's written and published a children's book. She hosted a podcast herself interviewing other working artist mothers she's just It's incredible.
[00:02:30] Aaron: Yeah, you'll hear her briefly talk about the record that she just put out and it was, think she said 10 or 13 songs that she picked from 900 voice memos.
That is a prolific amount of voice memos, she said, just from the last eight years. So that gives you an idea of just how prolific of a creator Laura is. And she's also just so open and great with all of this on. mental health and what she does. She is a big advocate for working at your own speed. She uses the analogy of, you know, being a tortoise surrounded by a bunch of hairs.
[00:03:07] Michaela: as prolific as she is, there's a big emphasis on rest and letting creativity lie fallow when it does and really going at your own pace.
[00:03:16] Aaron: Yeah. It's just a really great grounding conversation, a great balance of, kind of thought and, mindset and then also really actionable examples She's like, this is what I do and this is what works for me. And it's, if you've listened to this show, Michaela is the heady esoteric questions and I'm the very tangible, tools and actions questions. And I think we're both satisfied. Oh yeah. On this one. I scratched both itches. So. Without further ado.
Here's our conversation with Laura Viers.
[00:03:46] Michaela: I'm personally so excited you're here because I, didn't know if I was finding the right place. I think I like found an email on Bandcamp and was like writing to your label. So I was so excited when your manager wrote me back. So thank you.
[00:03:57] Laura: Oh, yeah. Thanks for having me. I was curious about I haven't listened to your podcast, but I think it's a very noble thing to be talking about.
[00:04:04] Michaela: Thank you. Yeah. the pandemic hit and it felt like so many people obviously were struggling, also there was this hushed Oh wow. It's actually really nice to not. be on the go all the time and touring relentlessly and people were like discovering that home life can be really nice then everything went back and it felt like everybody jumped right back in and all of a sudden we were having conversations around the dinner table of like Yeah, things seem like they're going really well, but I'm really stressed like, my body doesn't adjust to this anymore, or the finances are really challenging.
It just It felt like we're increasingly living in this massive disconnect between the image we all put forth on social media and the reality of what being working musicians is in today's world and also the challenge of some people being like well, we want to keep up that farce. And then some of us being like, wait.
But everybody feels really isolated and alone. Let's talk about it.
[00:05:01] Laura: Good for you. do you do them on a regular basis or on and off?
[00:05:05] Aaron: a little bit of an overachiever this year. We came out the gates with five episodes and then we've been releasing one every week since then.
[00:05:11] Laura: That's a lot.
[00:05:11] Aaron: yeah, we're coming down to the end. a brief pause and a reset
[00:05:15] Laura: Yeah, so you don't stress yourselves out too much with your podcast.
[00:05:18] Aaron: Yeah, exactly. Take our own medicine
[00:05:20] Laura: yeah.
[00:05:21] Aaron: a good life work balance a little
[00:05:23] Laura: Good, that's good. It can be challenging, especially when you're starting a new adventure of any kind. Even the podcast like, I was amazed by how much work goes into
[00:05:30] Aaron: the first Seven or eight episodes or so. I was editing myself and I was like, This is too much, I'd spend, we're in my studio, I'm a producer, and all that, so I spend a lot of time working with audio, and I'm like, oh, it should be fine, and there's something about human speech and conversation that is just way different than music, you know, very apparent when it doesn't feel natural and sound natural, and it was just too much,
[00:05:54] Laura: yeah.
[00:05:55] Aaron: we hired an editor, but it's still just the three of us, essentially, so it's a very
[00:05:59] Laura: lot. Yeah.
[00:06:00] Michaela: Yeah, we're spending money on this, but we really believe in it and it feels like these conversations are really of value to people and oddly like a radical, thing to bring forth and much like your podcast so many people especially when I got pregnant were like, oh, you have to listen to Laura Viers podcast. So
[00:06:19] Laura: I'm so glad. Yeah, it's still alive, and like, I did 15 interviews, and then I burnt out. But I was really glad I did this, because they're kind of an archive, like just a record of, snapshot of 15 different women's lives, and they all came from different backgrounds, and some of them were professional touring musicians, and some of them were local musicians.
And some were, in the art music world, and some were folk. you know, it's like a range of races, styles, ages, and I was glad that I did it. and there's infinite moms and I was thinking of doing dads too separately, to interview, but then I was just like, I gotta do other stuff.
So I, but I, like I said, I'm glad I did the 15.
[00:06:53] Michaela: Yeah. And it's referenced a lot in circles that I've been in because increasingly, especially women being like, there's not a ton of very visible examples of working musician moms. We have lots of examples of dads and then it's just assumed the kids are at home with the mom, so that's fine.
With musician moms it's like a genuine question that I understand, but it still strikes me. Even this past weekend, I was playing some shows and someone was like where's your baby?
[00:07:21] Laura: there such a thing as a dad.
[00:07:22] Aaron: Yeah. It's, you know, I've brought it up a few times I'll tour with them.
I'll do the driving, I'll do the load in, and then I go to the hotel at like 6. 30 and put our daughter to bed and I'll work then. And without fail. Almost every day there's somebody that's like, Wow, that's really amazing that you're doing that. And it just makes me shake my head.
if the roles were reversed, and Mikayla was traveling, and just being a parent, people wouldn't say anything.
[00:07:43] Laura: Of course. It's an old, time story, but it's great that you guys are flipping
[00:07:48] Michaela: and as I'm sure it's a constant adjustment, and like, what works, especially as the kid grows up and much easier to take her when she was a baby than now a toddler.
[00:08:01] Laura: For sure.
[00:08:02] Michaela: So to start, are you at home right now? Are you you're off? Okay.
[00:08:05] Laura: I'm at home in Portland, Oregon. I did a couple shows last week with Carl Blau, who's one of my old friends and long term collaborators. We played in Portland and Seattle and then we're playing in England next week. We leave on Monday. Just a couple short, little runs.
[00:08:18] Michaela: Nice. how old are your kids?
[00:08:20] Laura: They're 13 and 10. Two boys. Yeah.
[00:08:24] Michaela: of shifted how long you choose to go on tour for?
[00:08:28] Laura: Yeah, I am divorced, so I'm a single mom and I'm the primary parent. My ex has them every other weekend, so that makes touring really difficult now that they're school aged. So I'll do like a weekend gig in LA and then a weekend in New York. And then, for example, next week I'm going to the UK for a week and my ex and I share Thanksgiving.
So he'll do Thanksgiving one year and then I'll do it the next. So this is my year off of parenting during Thanksgiving, so I opted to book a tour. So I'll fit the tours in around times when I'm not parenting. And sometimes I'll bring the kids on like a short run and they'll sell merch and they're like still cute enough to sell merch they're going to be like ugly teenagers, not ugly, but you know what I
[00:09:11] Michaela: Yeah.
They're like, why is that, that 15 year old kid
[00:09:15] Laura: slinging CDs over their hair?
got like a bubbly 10 year old and like a semi.
presentable 13 year old.
Yeah. But, um, yeah, so they like to do that here and there on local gigs. And they did come to London. sometimes I'll combine a little vacation at the end of a tour.
And last year I had a nanny over the pandemic, which was an incredible gift. And she's a dear friend. And it just was this timing thing where I got divorced and then I had an extra room in the house. And my friend needed a place to stay and she had been our nanny and so she moved in and then the pandemic hit.
And so I was like one of the luckiest single parents in the world during the pandemic because
Wow, yeah.
I had a live in helper who was my dear friend. So anyway, she met me in London last year and brought the kids over and we had a really fun vacation after we did four shows. So I integrate them into my life and they know what it's like being a touring musician, but. I've really limited my touring time because I am very dedicated to them and, it's a lot of gymnastics and logistics for me if I go on tour anymore. So
hmm.
I, kind of accepted that, but also I'm 50 and I'm, I've been doing this so long. you know, I've kind of stayed at the same level for many years.
I did have a little bump with the Caseline beers thing, but it's not like I make bank and it's like stupid not to go tour. well you can go tour and make some money, but it's not like, where my bread and butter is. My bread and butter is more publishing and writing and having a big catalog
Just generating a lot of material a lot of the time.
So I don't mind not touring anymore. actually like to do just very short bursts I was talking to Kate Stables from This is the Kit the other day, she was in town. And she loves to tour and I think that is just her favorite. She told me, I was like, why do you tour so much?
She's like, I love it. It's my favorite part of the job. And, you know, there are so many different hats we wear as musicians. We wear the writer's hat, we wear the performing in the studios, session musician hat, do the performing on stage hat, and then in my case, I also run my own label and there's a lot of business hats that I wear. Performing is not my favorite hat. I like it, but it's not like I love the stage. I don't mind not touring that much anymore.
[00:11:20] Aaron: Is that something that you knew all along, or is that something that you came to a realization, too?
[00:11:24] Laura: No, I was terrified of the stage from the very beginning. Awful debilitating stage fright. Panic attacks, the whole thing. Shaky hands, So it's taken me years to get comfortable and mean sometimes I'm quite comfortable now and then I'm like wow I'm so comfortable and then I'm surprised that I was so comfortable but it's not like I'm one of those lifers who's like always throwing up before the stage, you know Like there are some musicians who have like debilitating stage fright lifelong I'm luckily not in that camp, but I'm not like some of the people that I've worked with I should ask them, but for example, Katie Lang and Nico Case, I was in a band with them called Case Lang Beers.
We made a
[00:12:00] Michaela: I was going to ask with Stage Fright, what that's
[00:12:02] Laura: Oh, it was awful.
[00:12:03] Michaela: Lang,
[00:12:04] Laura: It was awful. It was so bad. I was like, I don't even know if I can do this tour and it was booked. It was like huge shows, like some of them were like 6, 000 capacity. I mean, I play like to two or three hundred people, and then not only that, but just the pressure of being one of the marquee names the baby mouse or whatever, the baby bear of the group.
mm-Hmm.
Which chair are you going to sit in? This is the baby's chair.
Yeah.
The girl, what's that called? The girl in the
Goldilocks.
you! My God.
[00:12:37] Michaela: Three little
[00:12:39] Laura: bears.
yes! There were three little bears, but one, I felt like such a little bear. Yeah. And, but songwriting wise, I felt like A big bear, because I wasn't a big bear. Like I was generating, I either wrote or co wrote all those songs because that was honestly the strength that I brought to that group is just, idea generation and song kind of like a mule, just like plowing the fields of song, like here's some more, you know? and so that was cool. I did feel confident in that. I had to do a lot of stuff. But then when the tour was booked, we had a crew of 12. I was like, oh my god, what if I can't do it? And I'm like, what if we have to cancel. could be losing thousands and thousands of dollars for everyone.
Mm-Hmm.
And I just like, pretty freaked. But I was able to do it. And, can't do it. I did get more comfortable as the shows went on and like the 6, 000 capacity venue was half full so there's only 3, 000 people there and it was interesting because the promoters and the managers were super bummed, you
[00:13:34] Michaela: you're like, whoa!
[00:13:35] Laura: Yeah. It
it was interesting like going to a whole different realm of the music industry because I had always been more in like in the band with the band and the baby and just like scrappy, you know? and suddenly it was like tour buses and you're, face is on a billboard and you're playing the rhyme and all that stuff, and it was like, there were aspects of it that I really liked you know, I did like touring in a tour bus, it was fun.
Someone was driving me around and I could sleep,
[00:14:01] Laura: But there were other aspects of it that I was surprised by I felt a sense of isolation that was new,
like.
Mm hmm. I don't feel very cozy. Where is everybody? And like, I'm not allowed to set up my stuff, so what am I going to do for the next two hours?
Or we're not supposed to sell merch because, the other principals didn't want to go or couldn't go to the merch table, so. and then like, big dark theaters where you can't see anyone. It was very isolating, so. there were things about it that I actually didn't like,
there were things that I liked.
So I guess my point in bringing that up is that you'd think, Oh, if I could only get to this level, everything would be great. It's like anything in life. It's like, yeah, it comes with good and it comes with some sucky stuff. I just didn't know what the good stuff would be or what the sucky stuff would be.
[00:14:45] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:14:46] Laura: point being, those two seem very comfortable on stage, very comfortable.
[00:14:52] Aaron: was there any kind of tools or things that you learned to do to become comfortable in those shows? Or was it like cliff jumping and you just counted to three every night and jumped in?
[00:15:01] Michaela: Yeah. Or any like rituals beforehand to help yourself
[00:15:04] Laura: I would take half a beta blocker and a glass of wine. That would help me.
There you go. Yeah.
to keep the shakes off and then chill out for a second. But I wasn't like, pounding pills and like getting wasted. I was like moderate, but I feel like those kinds of little, medicinal helpers kept me like from freaking out. and so, you know, Katie meditates. I don't know why she's meditating. well, I know she has a longterm meditation practice, but I don't think she's wrestling with stage fright per se, but she does meditate before every show to set to herself, and maybe ground herself and why, she's doing it,
[00:15:38] Michaela: Interesting yeah, and I feel like I've seen both of them perform In their own projects and feels like not opposites, but such like semi different energy as a audience member, when I've seen Nico Case, she seems like so casually confident and comfortable. And it's just like, this is me and I like say what I want and I'm wearing like a flannel shirt and jeans and like, I am a huge fan of both of them and Katie Lang seems like very much a, putting on a show in a lot of ways so that's such an interesting like to then be in the middle of those two energies could be very balancing, I would think.
[00:16:17] Laura: it was cool, They were definitely different people. Really different people. Um, And like really different writers, too. Like it was challenging and fun to co write with them, because I hadn't done a lot of co writing yet.
I learned a lot about that process. And I'm curious to see whether we might do it again. Katie and I have been writing lately, but I'm not sure if we're gonna Make another record with the trio. I would love to do that, but there were also some things about it that were challenging. We did have some like ego battles,
hmm.
Think that's typical with supergroups or like people with big, you know, names We were wrestling with creative control a little bit. So a lot of those groups don't make it off the ground because of that, from what I've heard.
[00:16:55] Aaron: yeah. Yeah, I can imagine, when you're used to Being able to hold the steering wheel yourself and all of a sudden there's, the driving instructor next to you also with a steering wheel and it's
like,
[00:17:04] Michaela: wait, no, I'm used to everything is about me
[00:17:07] Laura: Yes. Yes.
[00:17:08] Michaela: and that's not like narcissism or I think every person who's built a career where it starts and ends with your name and it's your music and everything.
It would be challenging to then be like, okay, this is a different dynamic than the deep habitual thinking I've. developed over time.
[00:17:26] Laura: Yeah.
[00:17:26] Michaela: I love that you talked about how like, it comes up a lot in these conversations of when you're younger, or even when you're maybe you hold on to it for a long time.
But this idea of Oh, if I get to this level, it will be better if I get these things this size tour the size, tour buses, whatever. And really, starting to learn Oh, there's pros and cons to everything. There's actually a lot of benefits to, driving in a car, van, and having a hotel every night versus sleeping on a moving bus and waking up and, having to figure out where you can go to the bathroom because you can't.
Use the bus toilet those kind of things. And like, it's always refreshing to hear like these ideas of success. Actually it's what you make it and what, you find comfortable and there's great value in being an artist that spends their whole life driving in vans and cars and playing to a hundred, 200, 300 people on any given night.
That's a massive success as well.
[00:18:25] Laura: For sure. And I think, It's a great question. What is success? But for me, if I'm going to just shoot from the hip, I would say do you feel joy in your life? do you have good relationships? And I mean, frankly, that is what brings joy to people. If you studied the books on happiness, it's like the quality of your relationships is what determines your level of happiness.
It's not like we played to the hugest crowd ever, or we got the Grammy or we got the money or we got the status or, you know, so those are things that I mark as success and like, do you see beauty in life? Can find inspiration? Can is your heart open? Are you interested in sharing what's in your heart?
Or can you take a break? That's what I'm going to do next year. I'm with a guy who is a professor and professors, tenured ones, at least get sabbatical every seven years. So they get a paid year off to do whatever they want.
Oh my
Which I think is so smart, if you're running a college, you want those professors to stay happy, and there's a recharge period for them.
Mhm.
I have been grinding for so long, I was like, I'm gonna take a sabbatical with you! And he's like, you should! So, And then I was like, what does that even mean? Because I can design my days as I wish now, but I'm always creating new work for myself, I'm creating like deadlines, and I'm pushing for this show, and I'm like, that person or, you know, like trying to keep the team together or where's this merch going or like printing shirts or now I have an art practice and like, I'm so busy plus single mom, like laundry, like keep the house going on.
I like to cook and like keep up. so I was like, okay, what does the sabbatical look like? I'm going to go get my sheet cause I printed it out.
Okay. So I printed this out and I put it on my, By my desk, on the wall, it says, My sabbatical year, starting June 1st, 2024, going to June 1st, 2025. What does this mean? Number one, only doing high paying shows that come to me, not chasing shows or tours. It's okay to build a vacation around a show.
Mhm.
two, painting for fun. Number three, making music for fun, if I feel like it, with no pressure whatsoever. Number four. Putting out painting collections when I feel like it. Okay, five. Reading, resting, listening to music, biking, spending time with the kids and enjoying life while being careful about spending.
Letting the money come in and building up savings rather than spending on producing. I'll check back with you on June 1st, 2025 and let you know if I actually did my sabbatical.
[00:20:46] Michaela: Oh my God, going to make a note to reach back out and see if you'd be willing to come back
[00:20:50] Laura: on.
I'll be like all zen now, like, no problems in the world everybody, just peace out.
[00:20:56] Aaron: So, What's your ratio of joy to nerves right now, reading that list?
[00:21:02] Laura: I feel like, so excited about my sabbatical year. I think it's so great because I do have pretty good passive income. It's not like I'm super stressed all the time. I'm not wealthy and I can't relax, but I think for a year I could.
[00:21:13] Aaron: hmm.
[00:21:13] Laura: Mm I feel a lot of excitement about the idea.
And I think, I'm like, why can't I just have this mindset all the time? Why can't I get out of the grind mindset? And so maybe if I do that sabbatical year, I will be able to chill out a little bit in terms of like, I produced a new record and now I'm putting out live album out six months later and flying people all around the world from London and New York and I'm doing that stuff because I love to do it, but it adds a lot of stress.
So I'm trying to figure out how I can just stop producing stuff all the time. And just producing paintings and stuff but keeping it private or just not putting any pressure on myself to excel or Produce or put your work out there and stay visible and I made some changes in my social media life that I would recommend to people Because I was obsessively checking Instagram like probably like 20 times a minute or maybe 20 times every 5 seconds for like all day. Yes.
[00:22:09] Aaron: Yeah. The thing where you close the app and then open it again immediately, and you're like, I was just looking at this.
[00:22:14] Laura: Yeah. so I have this hiking group, these two women, they're also artist moms. we're going to be doing our 10th annual hike this year and we have to book it out 9 months in advance because we're so busy with our, all our other obligations. But every time we go on this hiking trip, we talk about Instagram, and one of them has a ton of followers, and one of them's like, growing her thing, but we just wrestle with it, because it seems important, because it's a way of communicating, but also it's soul sucking and like, energy sucking in a way, so I came to the conclusion a year ago that I just needed to get off of it, and in fact I needed to give The password to someone else who like, can't tell me what it is.
So, I did that. And she's been doing my social media for a year. I plan the posts, I give her the photos and the text, and she posts them. And then she goes back and likes and says like, thank you. It looks like me and anybody who's listening to this who's disappointed, sorry, but that's how I can maintain my sanity and also not lose contact with my fans.
Because I do stuff, like I put out records, I have paintings, I want to sell stuff, that's how I live. So I want to communicate, but also I don't want to be, basically what, sealed the deal for me in terms of Instagram was, like I read this quote, it's weird how like little epiphanies can shift your life, but the quote was simply like, your life is what you pay attention to.
[00:23:31] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:23:32] Laura: It's like you are what you eat. It's so simple, but like you are what you put into your body. Like, why don't we fuel our bodies with healthy food? Okay, what am I ingesting? What am I doing with my days? I'm looking at this
[00:23:43] Michaela: Mm hmm.
[00:23:44] Laura: is that what I want my life to be?
Paying attention to Instagram? No, I want to be, paying attention to books. I want to be paying attention to the people who are close to me, my partner, my kids, my friends, my family,
My community, and, yeah, my wider fan base. Yes, I want to give them things that they like, like music and art. I want to be paying attention to my health, I want to be paying attention to the environment, and to, my muse, which is like the mystery of, Like, where does creativity come from?
What is driving this anyway? Like, why am I even doing any of this? Those are the questions I want to be asking. Not, how many people like this? Or, how do I get back to that person? Or, who's damning me? Or, you know, and no shade on people who are really into Instagram. I totally get it. I was totally addicted.
But for me, I'm just saying. I know that the premise of your podcast is how do you maintain health,mental health is a huge part of that, and stamina and perseverance through this, which, can be a very difficult business. know, like I exercise every day, I eat well, I'm not perfect, but I do take care of myself and take care of my kids, I have a dog, I have a very boring home life. I, I do care about, the long term and mental health and physical health being part of that and I see myself as the turtle and there's the hairs running by me but then like I'm just walking along like this little turtle, and I keep finding ways to be inspired and to feel energized by.
Making art or music and like exploring the world that way and that makes me feel really good So I feel like I've gone through patches where I definitely not created and not wanted to create But I think that's also totally great. Like I wrote July flame, which is my best album I think one of my best albums like certainly the one that most people like and I end up playing a lot of those songs live that album came out in 2010 And I had been writing like feverishly up to that, like in all of 2009, a ton of songs I didn't like at all.
And I asked a friend of mine, he's actually the guy that I wrote the song called Best Kept Secret in Lake about. He's this musician, Tim Young, who lives in LA he's like, you know, a good friend and we've been collaborating for a long time and I called him and I was like, I hate all these songs.
He's like, just stop writing songs for like all summer. So I didn't write any all summer, the summer of 2009. And I was ready to write again. I needed to fill my cup back up. like, I was like out hiking, wandering around Portland.
Like I was making peaches. I went to the farmer's market and saw this peach called July Flame. Let's make these peaches. Oh, that's a cool name. And then the idea started to come to that record. And then I wrote the record quickly and it was beautiful. My point being, I think. For long term, tortoise living, taking rests and breaks are really important.
And not beating yourself up about it and enjoying that time being less productive and like stepping out of the hamster wheel that we all seem to like easily got wrapped up in. Whether that is like the cycle of touring, recording, playing, writing all that stuff, you can step out of that. We can all step out of it and then step back in when we feel like it.
It's the right time. We don't have to stay like grinding, because if you grind too hard, like you're at risk of either burning out or like getting addicted to something. Maybe Instagram, maybe drugs. I don't know. Or just like, you know, we all know plenty of people who have fallen away from it or become disengaged or became alcoholic and fell off the rails or it's a hard life.
[00:27:02] Michaela: Yeah. Or even addicted to the gratification, the attention of being told you're good and your show's growing and,
[00:27:11] Laura: Yeah, Yeah, and like that feeling of getting wrapped up in this like capitalist idea that everything should always be growing. I disagree.
[00:27:18] Aaron: I think similarly. I see a lot of people get addicted to the struggle in a way. There's the feeling of the grind and the feeling of like, no, I'm pushing through this. doing work. I'm being productive. Like, that's what this is supposed to feel like, that when things are easy and I'm, Admittedly talking from my own experience, when something is easy and I am gentle with myself, I don't feel like I'm actually making any progress when in actuality.
I think if I'm able to zoom out, I am making progress because I'm recharging. I'm staying inspired. I'm staying fresh, but it doesn't have that like tangible. grit or grind to the action.
[00:27:54] Laura: I can relate to that.
[00:27:55] Michaela: Yes, the dopamine hits, yeah, of being like, oh, this is hard and then the breakthrough makes me feel like I did something or, it's all like the ups and downs that can be addictive as well I'm someone who gets pulled. it takes a lot of work for me to stay centered in what. I want to do. And Aaron's a really good mirror for me. He'll say okay, like I need papers like your intention list for your sabbatical year. Like I need that stuff like every day of like, wait, why am I doing what I do?
This is my plan for this day or this week or this year. And then I'll get sidetracked and be like, wait, everything's wrong. And Aaron will always be like, you made a plan and everything's going according to plan, but you're getting Distracted, and I feel that in life of like, these are my values, this is what I think is how I want to live my life as an artist, and then I'll be like, oh, but that looks really exciting, maybe I should do that, because I want that instead, and I'm like, wait, nope.
I need to stay right here. And it's really another reason why I love this podcast and these conversations, because it's such a reminder, especially for people who've been in it for a long time who've gone through enough cycles to be like, yeah, we've learned those lessons of like, how do you come back?
Because all of the buzz and the highs and all that stuff, it always comes back down. How do you stay in the tortoise lane of, yeah, this is how you build, not everybody's going to be clapping for you every day and telling you how you're the greatest of the year or whatever. do you ever have times that you get pulled into the hare lane and that you're like, wait, nope, I like my tortoise lane.
how do you stay in there if you get pulled or is that just your natural tendency?
[00:29:36] Laura: I mean staying off social media helps a lot and I have the privilege of having someone run it for me. Not everyone can do that,
Don't read my reviews. I haven't read them in years. It was fun getting reviews in the beginning and then I realized even the good reviews were like getting in my head in a weird way. I'm glad I get reviews. I don't want to sound like, I don't care because I do care. I like being seen. I like being acknowledged, but I try to stay in touch with, like there's this quote by Agnes Martin, who's a painter I really the measure of your life is the amount of beautiness and happiness of which you're aware.
So I try to remind myself are you aware of happiness? Are you aware of beauty? Because it's around you every day. Especially with kids like, they bring happiness. They bring stress too, of course, and like messes and everything. But they are reminders for me to check in with the moment, be mindful. And like staying grounded in, like I said, core values of like, are my relationships good?
do I have joy in my life? Am I noticing things like it's fall and trees are changing or am I so in my head that I'm like spaced out on a walk just thinking about the next thing I need to do or like stressing about some logistical thing,it's practice for me to remind myself like, not to say we're all just specks of dust and nothing means anything, but it is good to remind yourself
It's a privilege to be an artist. It's wonderful to have this opportunity and to be able to make a living of some kind as an artist is unusual and great and it's challenging and it comes with, like a lot of freedom, which is great, but a lot need for us to check in with taking care of ourselves, slowing down, whether that's a meditation practice for me, exercise takes a lot of stress off and.
And reminding ourselves that, the things that, let's say, capitalism thinks are important aren't necessarily the things that we have to guide our lives around. Like I was saying always growing. That doesn't need to be the way that you live. You could be like, always curious, that could be a different always, like always awake, there's always something.
Like some mundane thing that could be beautiful right around the corner. That's what I'm interested in with art and with music. It's like, how do I transform this world into something magical? That's like the role of the artist. that is awesome and it's challenging and it's deep and it's hard and it's beautiful.
It's all the things. And that's why I think I, do go through phases where I'm like, this is stupid, like. Why am I even doing this? But then like, inevitably, I'll get more in touch with, like, why I think being an artist is amazing and wonderful. Like, when I hang out with certain musicians, I'm like, these people are, like, some of the most interesting people ever meet. The way that they see the world, the way that they approach life, so outside of the normal way. It's beautiful.
[00:32:12] Michaela: Yeah. And I think like my younger self thought the only excitement was out there. You had to be chasing the excitement. Touring was addictive to me because you never knew what was going to happen and seeing places. And now having a, pandemic really shifted that for me and having a child, but that idea that the ordinary is extraordinary of just there's so much beauty an awe in just routine and daily life and home life that I never saw before, that I think is also a powerful role of an artist to highlight that not just the kind of stereotypical things that we romanticize, but just elevating the beauty that's in, yeah, a peach.
[00:32:55] Laura: Yep.
I agree.
[00:32:56] Michaela: I was curiousyou know, there's pros and cons always of, having an outside label run things for you, but then, you know, not having as much ownership over your work and the pros and cons of then having your own label and the responsibility, the cost, but then the.
Increased ownership, especially as you became a parent and had that extra workload of raising children and how that affected your relationship to your actual making of music.
[00:33:26] Laura: Yeah, that's a good question. I started my label basically out of the gate because I was coming from like a Riot Grrrl, Ani DeFranco, like sell it out of the back of your car, And so after a couple of those, I got picked up by Bella Union in Europe and then Nonesuch for a couple albums, like three albums.
So I was like on a major label for a few years, maybe five years. I got dropped from Nonesuch and then I got back on Bella. But then I ultimately decided to just run my own thing internationally. my most recent release is called Orphans. That one is the first one that I've done a full international release.
And it was a lot of work. It was like international, teams of people, like getting final shipped up everywhere. And like, I realized too late, I really should have pressed up CDs. I'm like, God, I really should have invested that extra 5k, you know, I didn't even know anyone buys CDs.
It's just like, I probably should have a manager, like a label manager. But there's less and less money in the music industry. Let's face it. And so I don't have like excess huge sums of money to just hire on a pro to run my label. I have a manager who helps me and I have like a team of people, but it's a lot of logistics and part of me is like, maybe I have too many logistics, but, one of my goals is to like chill on the logistics and have more of a team in place reduce my logistical need.
during the sabbatical year, like my need to be involved with logistics, but I do ultimately like being a DIY person and I don't know if any label would have wanted to put out this phone orphans album. as my own producer, I can decide that stuff. I really liked that feeling of like, all right, this is an alternative outsider folk release.
Like I had all these demos on my phone some of them went back eight years and I went through 900 voice memos and found 14 that I liked. And I was like, I'm putting this out. I don't care. That part of me was like, this is dumb. No one's going to like But then deeper under that, this is dumb was.
This is actually cool because I didn't think anyone would hear these. This is me writing the song and performing it fresh out of the gate to my phone. no listeners. And with no expectation of listeners beyond possibly a producer listening for an album You know, Like curating the songs for an album.
I wasn't thinking anyone would ever hear them. And so that makes the recording special. Because it's very relaxed. Way more relaxed than I've ever been able to be in a studio.
Yeah. I like sharing that intimacy with my fans. But, all this to say, I'm not sure if the label would They'd be like, that's just your phone demos.
Like, We're not putting that it's gotten great reviews. Like, hired press. I had to invest a lot of money in it. Like they're not high budget stuff, but it adds up vinyl
yeah. photos, videos, all that stuff. And, the press people have told me it's getting great reviews. because I told them, I don't read my reviews, but
Yeah.
I know that.
And I'm glad because I thought, Oh, maybe no one's going to listen to this at all or it'll be ignored. Or there'll be like, she's just given up. She's just like recording. So anyway, I was glad that it's gotten this burst of excitement around it that makes me feel like, all right, like I know what I'm doing here, enough to like run this thing and get this stuff over to New Zealand and wherever it needs to go and so that kind of makes me feel a sense of self efficacy and like agency.
Pretty gratifying. And I haven't seen the full return on my investment yet, but over time, like I never signed a publishing deal. I have a 10 percent BMG admin deal that I've had since the beginning and I had friends signing like 60, 000 advances I'm like, ooh, that's a lot of money and then later I'm like, I'm glad I didn't sign that because you give away so much of your percentage when you do that so I always have kept the like DIY like I got this kind of semi paranoid Ethos in the sense of like I have a friend who lost millions of dollars because their business manager took it all because they weren't paying attention.
You know, like, it's like, I want to pay attention enough. I don't want to be in the weeds of everything. It's like death by numbers, but I do want to pay enough attention that I'm like understanding the basic. machinations of my business. I'm where stuff is and who's doing what, and like, where the money is and what the income is and you know, I'm not like, obsessed with budgets or anything.
I wish I was more obsessed with budgets, frankly, I'd make probably better decisions. But, in general, I think like, I'm, probably a rare artist in the sense of like, don't get off on spreadsheets, but I make a lot of spreadsheets.
[00:37:52] Michaela: Yeah, I love spreadsheets now. I hated them. I hated them years ago, and now I love them. It makes me feel better. If I start to get anxious, I check out my spreadsheets got tour budget spreadsheets, I've got, year income spreadsheets, like everything and every new spreadsheet that I make, I'm like, Oh my god, this is making me feel so much better.
And then I can write a song because I'm like someone who has to know, I have to feel like everything's okay. it's challenging for me because I'm an artist, but I also am like, but I want to make money. I want my house to be nice. I want to feel comfortable.
I want to have a retirement fund. I want all these things that, the stereotype would tell you, Oh, artists don't. Worry about that stuff and you just and I'm like, no, I've never felt like I would just be taken care of I have to make sure that stuff's okay Spreadsheets make me feel secure
[00:38:43] Laura: Yeah, there's a reason we're talking today, sister.
[00:38:45] Michaela: you walked away to get your paper Aaron said I feel like I'm looking at
[00:38:50] Laura: 50 year old you
[00:38:51] Aaron: She got so excited when you're like, oh, I wrote it down.
I gotta go get something. Michaela was literally just like yes
[00:38:56] Michaela: No, that's great. I feel like we're kindred spirits for sure, because I'm like that too. My house is super tidy. I'm not super ti ,
[00:39:04] Laura: but
Well, Mine is. and I like spreadsheets, and I feel less stressed when I make a spreadsheet. And then once my house is nice, I make a big mess. like, papers are everywhere, and paintings are, like, music, and shit's flying around.
You know, like, and then it's all clean at the end of the day, and then I start over, right? And it's always making a mess, and then like, cleaning it up, making a mess, cleaning it up and
[00:39:25] Michaela: feel similar to me.
[00:39:27] Laura: It's like chaos, yeah, like, and I have a Not enormous, but I have a good, retirement plan and like I've been building that up for 20 years, like Mm-Hmm. . care.
I care about stability. I care about health. I care about like my kids and providing a nice home for them and I do enjoy and have and want financial stability and I think that's legit for artists to get that and want that and especially artists who are women. Like. asking for higher fees and knowing what you're worth and owning that.
Those are things that are hard especially for women but we can do it and we're, doing it. I love seeing like, as I get older, so many more women and non binary people and trans and queer people doing like more of the things that used to be the realms of only the white men, like the production, engineering, mastering, all of that stuff I'm seeing younger.
I've seen more diverse people going into those roles, and I love seeing that. So I know it's changing, I know it's getting better, but sometimes it feels super slow, but I do see it happening from the ground up. And I'm not like super in the mix, but I'm in the mix enough to see that, like back when I was growing up, there would be hardly any women in the recording studio ever,
[00:40:30] Michaela: I was just talking to a friend yesterday who's a musician mom and a producer and went to this like engineering conference over the weekend with another female producer and engineer and she was talking about how there's this feeling I want to tell other, you know, women. Anyone who doesn't identify as a white man like, you don't know less there's not some secret information that you don't have like, you know, just as much as these white guys who are dominating this space. They've just felt comfortable in this space. So it feels like a responsibility to be like, we can create the spaces to make others feel comfortable.
You're not In theory, or if you have a question, they probably also have that question, but they've just been conditioned to know that it's okay to find out and to, make mistakes and learn. And I think there's been this kind of sentiment of, for those of us who look at these spaces and think, for me, I don't see women musicians with their babies out there on the road. So how am I going to ever do this? And people think that's not possible. The more the other takes up space, the more it invites more others to come.
[00:41:38] Laura: I agree. Yes.
[00:41:40] Michaela: I know we are conscious of your time, so if there's any last thing you want on this topic that you feel like imparting with us and our, listeners of just how to stay connected it
[00:41:51] Laura: I go in and out of feeling connected myself to the muse or to feeling inspired. But I'd say like if you're feeling a fallow period, that's okay. just see it through and, inevitably a spark is going to come. then you can follow the next spark. And that's like the reality of the life that we've chosen as artists is you don't really know what the next spark is going to be.
You just have to wait for it sometimes and that's fine. Try to be
[00:42:13] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Mary Gauchet was a guest on this. Podcast and she said, patience with your art and persistence with your business.
[00:42:22] Laura: I like that.
[00:42:23] Aaron: And it's so good.
[00:42:24] Laura: That's really great.
[00:42:25] Michaela: Yeah. Needs to be a bumper sticker
[00:42:27] Laura: Totally.
[00:42:28] Aaron: Yeah.
Well,
[00:42:29] Laura: Thank you.
Yeah, thank you Aaron and Michaela. That was really fun. Thanks for having me.