Madame Gandhi is an incredibly diverse guest: she is an award winning producer, composer, and drummer for M.I.A., a member of Forbes' 30 Under 30, has given several TED talks, has an MBA from Harvard and a Masters in Music Science & Tech from Stanford, and famously ran the 2015 London Marathon while menstruating freely to combat menstrual stigma. We talk about how she tackles both self doubt and imposter syndrome in her many creative endeavors, her concept of optimizing for joy in our passions to foster sustainability, post-show rituals, and so much more.
Madame Gandhi is an incredibly diverse guest: she is an award winning producer, composer, and drummer for M.I.A., a member of Forbes' 30 Under 30, has given several TED talks, has an MBA from Harvard and a Masters in Music Science & Tech from Stanford, and famously ran the 2015 London Marathon while menstruating freely to combat menstrual stigma. We talk about how she tackles both self doubt and imposter syndrome in her many creative endeavors, her concept of optimizing for joy in our passions to foster sustainability, post-show rituals, and so much more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:07] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to today's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is not even a year old, thank you so much for being here. If you're a returning listener, we really appreciate you for coming back.
If this is your first time, thank you so much for checking us out.
[00:00:25] Aaron: Yeah, for those of you that are returning listeners and know that you really enjoy what this podcast is already, if you could just take a second and pass an episode on to a friend, share it on social media, send it as a text message, just Slip it on in the van when it's your time to drive.
That's the best way for us to get in front of new listeners. And the fact of the matter is the more listeners we have, the longer we can do this, the more guests we can have, and the more ideas we can share with you. So if you could just share your favorite episode with somebody you think might really enjoy it, and we will see you on the next one.
[00:00:54] Michaela: And we're not your typical music promo shows. We're not talking to artists about their latest record or their current tour that they're promoting. We like to talk to musicians about the in between times. A lot of times, it's not even about music itself, but what they do to stay grounded and healthy and sane, And very importantly, how to stay connected to their creativity while building a career around their art.
[00:01:21] Aaron: Which is a pretty crazy thing to do, we all know. There is a lot in this industry that is outside of our control.
And as MC Taylor, his gold messenger said, every day in the music business is like walking into a casino and you put in some money, you pull a slot and you're like, Hey, what happens? And so with that in mind, we wanted to focus on what is within our control, our mindsets, our routines, our habits, and our creativity.
And so with that in mind, we like to ask our guests, the general question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life? So that you can sustain your creativity
[00:01:52] Michaela: and today's guest.
Is a doozy. I'm zinging from this conversation. Madam Gandhi is an incredible percussionist, composer, musician, activist, public speaker. She is one of Forbes 30 under 30. She's BBC's top 100 women. She's done TED talks. She She has an MBA from Harvard. She has a master's from Stanford in music science and technology.
She's currently working on a project where she went to Antarctica and recorded the sounds of the glaciers melting. She's just. An incredible person. She famously had a viral moment where she ran the London Marathon while menstruating freely to uh, raise awareness for menstrual equity and try and reduce the stigma around menstruation.
[00:02:42] Aaron: Yeah, this episode is jam packed from start to finish. And so we're not going to waste your time. Without further ado, here's our conversation with Madam Gandhi.
[00:02:49] Michaela: well, Thank you so much for agreeing to talk to us. It sounds like you have such a crazy schedule. Where are you right now?
[00:02:56] Madam Gandhi: I'm joining you from Toronto and I'm here speaking at a conference called elevate. It's a really interesting tech conference where they're trying to bring in folks who are using tech to essentially make the world a better place. And so I've been hearing really amazing keynotes, and I feel like the Canadian perspective, I would say does an even better job than perhaps the US on inclusivity on diversity.
even the land acknowledgement that they do every morning before we start the festival. And then this morning I led the auditorium of 2000 people in a guided meditation just to ground before we kick off the final day of the festival. So it was very cool. And then at three o'clock, I will present my beats that I recorded in Antarctica.
[00:03:33] Aaron: Yeah. Amazing. Tell us more about that. We heard you talk a little bit. So you, basically sampled glaciers melting. Am I understanding that correctly?
[00:03:40] Madam Gandhi: Yeah. Yeah. So in the pandemic, I was spending a lot of time in nature and recording the sounds of, trees and wind and leaves and sticks and things like that. And ended up working on this incredible project where I made a beat pack for electronic music producers to have hi hats and synthesizers and kick drums and bass sounds that are all 100 percent organically sourced from nature and sculpted into these more familiar electronic music production tools.
And the pack ended up winning an award. And so I applied to Stanford's music science technology master's program and got in to pursue that project at a higher level. And they taught me how to build underwater microphones. And so then last year I went out to Antarctica and decided to record the sounds of the planet literally melting, what does climate change actually sound like, and Music has always been a tool for empathy, and it's always been my access point to somebody else's walk of life. And, a lot of times when we feel connected to something, that's when we actually feel motivated to create change. And so I thought, what if I can record the sounds of glaciers melting and continue this project of making electronic music out of these sounds, to create awareness and empathy around climate action.
So that's the project and that's what I'm presenting today at three o'clock.
[00:04:49] Michaela: we always do research before we meet with somebody and I saw that you have like an MBA from Harvard and your resume is just like mind blowingly impressive. And, but then this morning I saw the master's at Stanford in this particular project and I was like, What?
Um, so I'm so drawn to people who are creatives and artists but have this bigger mission behind them beyond just, I create because I feel drawn to create and then therefore get into the music business there's so many layers of how that can get clouded when you get into the music business world and industry and start trying to like gain fame and notoriety and I'm I'm so attracted to people that have this other drive, a mission based drive.
how does that play out for you? Have you always just been, you know, you're an activist on multiple levels of multiple causes? was that just ingrained in you? And then how do you balance career ambitions that might be more self focused with your greater missions?
Transcribed
[00:05:49] Madam Gandhi: The last question I can take first, which is that if we have bigger influence, we have greater potential to change the world more effectively. You know, I think obviously people are pursuing fame and things like that. That's all fine, but you're absolutely right. If it's egocentric, then ultimately you have these like really dramatic highs and lows.
And even for younger people who they sign in the music industry, I always feel like I want to be a mentor and a big sister because They inorganically just pump so much money into a lot of the new emerging artists and blow them up on Tik TOK and, things like that. And also, especially for the women over sexualize young people, and then reward that behavior, whether it's part of our own consent or not. And. The good thing is that, of course, we want young people to be successful. We want healthy, thriving music industry, but we also don't want this kind of unsustainable career where you have these really dramatic highs, but then you have such terrible lows that you find yourself in rehab or having to take care of yourself or using, problematic drugs to keep yourself feeling good.
I know that a lot of the bigger artists struggle with this, and that's completely absent from the conversation in the music industry. So for me, I think I'm very aware of that. So if I'm pursuing something at a bigger level that you're mentioning, that is career oriented, it has to be with the intention of just having larger influence to do good in the world.
If we have a bigger audience and we can motivate more people to be their best selves and step into their power, it's a exponentially positive effect. So this has to be the central core and then you benefit from that. And ultimately, bravery is rewarded with love. When I do the right thing, I receive more love and more support in my career.
choice is very telling, whether it's one of ego or one of goodness. So that's the first question that you were asking. And then you asked about where the motivation to do good comes from. Definitely we were raised with my brother and sister and I were raised with two Indian parents, who always kind of were like, listen, we've tried to make you have a nice life so that you can have the luxury of doing good in the world, so that was driven into us from a young age. And then finally, what I'll say about music specifically is that music is my joy. When I used to be bullied in school, but then I would take time to go practice the drums. my confidence immediately lit back up, from feeling quieted in the morning to then feeling empowered in the afternoon, or even when I was at Harvard business school, even though I had all the credentials to be in that environment, it was a very, very intense, very alpha masculine type environment, and so classroom would feel very stressful and oftentimes I wouldn't feel like I made a smart enough comment.
All my imposter syndrome would come out, but then the next day when I would be drumming on stage with MIA, my confidence would come roaring back. And so music has always been this opportunity for me to step into my own joy. It's the thing that lights me up. And so when we take what it is that is our passion and we optimize for our own joy, we always have something to give.
because I understand that from a young age. It's motivated me to always use my joy to do something good for others because it's sustainable because it's honest.
[00:08:27] Michaela: Man, there's so much there, I just have to like, take that in for a second.
[00:08:32] Aaron: I agree on, so many levels we hear a lot of people talk about imposter syndrome and navigating that. was there anything in particular, outside of just stepping into music that you found to get past that imposter syndrome.
I imagine that with such a diverse set of, endeavors that you step into. There's a lot of opportunity for imposter syndrome. are there tools that you've found to help navigate that, step past that to keep this motivation?
[00:08:59] Madam Gandhi: A hundred percent. Absolutely. I love this question. So we have to move with humility. If I want to go and be part of the Acro yoga community, because the Acro yogis are inspiring me. You have to come with humility. Like, wow. What you all are doing looks so cool. I would be so humbled joyful to learn.
I felt intimidated by that community. I feel inspired by that community. And so therefore, I want to be a part of it. So the past couple of years, it's been such a joy to really expand my own potential as a yogi and as a spiritual practitioner of wellness of acro of meditation, of all these different things.
the entry point is, not one of entitlement or, with expectations the entry point is this is so cool. Y'all are amazing. I'll be so lucky to be part of this. This is incredible. And when people have approached me with that kind of energy, it's my joy to welcome them in.
It's only when people feel entitled to my energy or entitled to what I have or. Needing something from me that I don't want to give or that I'm not consented to give that's when we feel like we want to exclude that person because they not coming with nice behavior. They coming with bad behavior. That's the first thing.
I actually think humility is the antidote to imposter syndrome because we're not pretending, we're just coming, honest, listen, you guys look really cool, that looks strong, that looks complicated, I would love to learn how to do acroyoga, and that's just of many examples, whether it's music production, drumming, you just come with the enthusiasm, come with great involvement, come with great humility, 9 out of 10 times if you come with these high vibrational behaviors and qualities, it's People will be so refreshed to let you in.
Of course, we're motivated by your affirmation for the thing. Thank you for your childlike spirit, so that's a big one. Instead of us having to prove anything to one another, you just come honest and humble. It's so nice, actually, even saying it out loud. I'm like, it just lightens the vibe for everybody involved.
So that's a big one. And then I do like to invest in my own skill sets. Investing in my own skill sets allows me to feel like I can show up in many different places because I know the discipline and the quality of focus, that I carry within myself, whether it's meditating every day, whether it's, working out and moving my body, whether it's the 10, 000 hours of drumming that I practice.
I know you both can relate to that as musicians. So when we invest in our own skill sets, the discipline that you've put towards something you have committed great focus to something more so than the other person has. And so you are free from having to prove anything because you know it's pure, it's honest.
It's the reason why I was drawn to running. You can't fake a 5K, you can't fake a 10K, you can't fake a marathon. You can humbly take an Uber home if you feel tired, but once you cross the finish line, that's your honest accomplishment. You did that. So I'm drawn to this sort of integrity based self actualization and self behavior.
[00:11:33] Michaela: if I just read your resume, you have this incredible list of accomplishments, but it doesn't sound like it's driven by like, I want to impress people. It's driven by a voracious curiosity and being a forever student, and not calculating what will this get me?
What am I doing this for? But rather I'm interested in that and I'm going to pursue that. we talk a lot about mindsets and what we're born with or what we're like nurtured and the way that we think and our belief systems and limiting belief systems and how to, shift those.
And I was a military kid and I grew up moving around all the time and I kind of saw what I consider my kind of like innate dreamlike sense and that anything was possible from a really young age but then I saw how that kind of really got chipped away because I was in so many different situations where as like the new kid and got excluded a lot and kind of started to feel like oh yeah well who am I to think that I should be able to do this or whatever.
And has that self doubt, does it ever creep into you? Like when you make a decision to make a huge I'm going to spend my time going to pursue another master's when I have all this other stuff, or I'm going to go study acroyoga. Do you ever have those creeping thoughts of self doubt of wait, can I handle this?
Or is it always purely driven by I'm super curious and I wanna learn
[00:12:54] Madam Gandhi: Of course there's self doubt. We all have to do the daily meditation to quiet these voices 100%. In fact, they're loud and it's something that my partner and I talk a lot about to support each other and to help each other quiet those voices. And... Each of us have some version, whether it was a bully in school, someone who excluded us, sometimes our own parents even, in their intention to help us, they also could be projecting those doubts onto their own kids. Those voices are definitely loud. And it's interesting because my partner is more motivated by like, I'm going to prove everybody wrong. So the voices can be motivating. That's not my style at all. The voices are quite debilitating for me. And so there has to be this sense of love and like gentleness for me that allows me to come and shine.
And I think the more that I learned to quiet those voices with a sense of kindness to the self. And peacefulness and listen, we're going to do our best. We're going to come rested. We're going to come doing some hard work. It actually allows me to then talk to other people that way and talk to other people with great respect and kindness and motivation and sweetness and encouragement.
And so because I've done this training for myself, the real medicine is then exporting it to others and seeing how impactful it is and how everyone's like, Oh God, thank you. Thank you for helping me calm down. Thank you for helping me feel like belong, thank you for helping me feel included.
So the biggest medicine is that any of this work that we do on ourselves, you actually can then offer that medicine to somebody else. And I find that to be the biggest gift, the biggest reward. And when I'm challenged, that's the thing that I remember is like, Kieran, figure this out for yourself, because if you do, you can then export it to the next person.
And it's going to feel so good. that's a big one. And then you talked about also, accolades and things like that. And listen, I grew up with two, very highly achieving Indian parents. And everything was very much about being on the hamster wheel of accolades, you know, get the next egg, get the next college degree, get the next award.
And I've had to actually really rebrand that whole thing in my own mind to exactly what you're saying. Come back to a purity of intention rather than. Feeling the need to, prove that I am enough to then therefore be loved, Everyone's biggest fear is that I am not enough and therefore I am not deserving of love.
It's quite simple. But when we free ourselves from that and say, But I am the love. I am the sweetness. I am the positive energy. I'm here to just be. I actually find the achievements come much easier.
[00:15:08] Aaron: Gentleness with the self, goes a long way. talk about being a perpetual student. I feel like I'm a perpetual student of that sentence alone. And the curiosity that is inherent in that. like we mentioned earlier, like having a young daughter. In our first, I spent a long time of like, okay, what, qualities do I want to impress upon this child?
Who would I want to do? And one of them is I want her to always be curious,
I want to, allow her the freedom to do what she wants in life to be what she wants to follow that. So how do I support that without limiting that? And being curious and being interested, intrigued
[00:15:41] Madam Gandhi: I think curiosity gets beaten out of us because if we do something wrong, or we make a mistake, then people are quite negative.
And those are very debilitating and strong forces enough so that it's the reason why people don't want to go first in a group setting or they don't want to take a leap because the risk of failure publicly in front of others is enough to make them not do the thing at all, even if they were curious.
What a tragedy. What a missed opportunity. So, Really, to be such conscious parents what a gift for your daughter. Amazing.
[00:16:13] Aaron: Thank you. I see that a lot working in the studio we're sitting in our studio now where the more I come in with a preconceived notion of this is how it's supposed to be. You miss so much. There's so much that can happen that are happy accidents.
That can lead to something that's really beautiful that you would have never thought of if you were just so boxed in. I can imagine, doing something like traveling to Antarctica to record glaciers, you stumble across a lot of happy accidents and a lot of unexpected things and in a place that's so desolate like that, need to have the openness to welcome changes in schedule, changes in plans, changes in logistics and all of that.
I'm wondering if you can share any bit on that, on, what that experience was like,
[00:16:54] Madam Gandhi: Of course, yeah, absolutely. I think some of the unexpected things, I mean, they were handmade microphones so, like, the wire is already frozen before you've even put it underwater. Like, just, very obvious things. I thought we were going to be able to record a lot of whales, because that was the original intention of the project, was whale sounds underwater.
Because that's what we did at Stanford. We went out to Monterey and recorded the sounds of whales underwater. But no matter what, there's also a lot of human noise, like the motor of the boat. That was a big one. And so we asked them, can you turn off the motor of the boat? But they're like, that's not safe.
That's like a safety protocol. Because if you turn off the motor of the boat in the middle of Antarctica, it's very hard to turn it back on because it might freeze. And so, there were these like moments where I had to sort of ask, five minutes. Let's do it. Two minutes. Let's do it and get these shorter recordings knowing that luckily the intention of the project was not like 15 minutes.
Spilled recordings, but instead we're making beats out of raw audio material. So the shorter soundbites could actually work. And then also leadership team building, the stuff that I learned from my MBA really is like, how do you empower and encourage and convince people to join you on the mission?
Because you need their buy in. I need the boat operator to be down to turn off the thing. I need them to be engaged in the project. I need them to feel like they contributed to this mission happening successfully. And that needs leadership that needs teamwork that needs support. So you have to also be a motivator, get people behind you on the journey.
But I was going to say also when you talked about the studio and good for us to have a plan Even when I give my talks, you know to this day as a public speaker Good to have a plan the main things that you want to say But you're absolutely right that if you're not present to the moment and you're not relaxed You miss so much and you actually miss the medicine of what is needed And so I have actually learned before my shows, getting on the stage, before my talks, trust, you have your general framework of what's needed for this particular event.
But make eye contact. How are the audience doing? Are they tired? Are they with you? What's needed of the moment? We might have a hundred things to say, but actually they just need to hear one thing properly. That's it. So I try to be like a wise maternal, you know, when I'm on the stage, like noticing what's actually needed of the moment and giving that.
[00:18:52] Michaela: Do you have a practice, after, like, you have your daily meditation and preparing for a performance or a speech, but do you have a practice after? Because sometimes I feel like that's something I will forget a lot, especially if I'm on tour the importance when you take in so much energy from an audience and interacting and giving, you're giving energy, but also taking in from other people.
And do you have a practice to cleanse
[00:19:17] Madam Gandhi: I'm so happy you're asking this, and I feel like, unless your audience already knows your practice, I think you should definitely share it on the podcast as well. Uh, Please, because I think I could also learn from you. I really appreciate you asking this question, because that's the hardest part for me.
I feel great loneliness when I come off the stage. all my bad habits come back when I come back off the stage. There's this intensity of wanting to eat badly, or I remember when I gave my first TED Talk, This was when I, was still having alcohol. I had to let that go a couple years ago, but my first TEDx talk ever was at the Brooklyn Bowl 10 years ago.
And I remember I beelined right from the stage to the bar and had a beer, the quickest beer I ever had, because there's that sense of like, Oh God, how do I come down off this really intense experience? And I really appreciate that question because it's much harder than we think, even if it's a great success.
So some of the things that I've learned about myself by observing myself is that I really like to have one on one energy, whether it's with my partner if they're able to join, whether it's with my tour manager because we have a nice emotional friendship connection, whether it's just with somebody who, was with me at the conference.
I just need like a one on one, how was it? Did you enjoy it? Can I get a hug? Just something to come back into my own humanity and like the reality of the thing and let somebody else hold me since I've just given that's a big one for me. If I can just have that one on one moment, even if it's a phone call, then I can go back out and enjoy the fruits of the labor.
and then also if I'm on tour, I actually love having a good meal with the band. Like everyone who internally was involved with the thing. I love to just have a nice meal. And then in terms of sleeping at night, I've had to like really dial in my sleep. Like I have a really good red light that just puts me right to bed.
That's an amazing solution. 432 Hertz music. Just like I'm out in 15 minutes with the sleep timer on. Lavender oil. I actually only use palo santo at night intentionally so that it signifies for me personally that it's an evening ritual, but you can just choose any fragrance of a incense and use it for the evening.
So that you isolate that scent to be only about sleeping. And then I think obviously. The phones and having lights on, you actually need to start winding down and give yourself an hour to start turning off some lights in the home. So you like, psychologically get ready to that.
It's a wind up.
So those are some of my key rituals, and I would love to hear yours.
[00:21:24] Michaela: Yeah, I feel like it's so fascinating because I love rituals And all that stuff but it's so easy to get away from them and get busy and having a child, every day it's blowing my mind of how much watching her and learning how to care for her is teaching me how I want to care for myself of like just listening to you talk.
I was thinking about Georgia's nighttime routine of what we do and we use lights to signal like now it's time to get ready for bed a red light turns on to go to bed and just like all the rituals that I felt like We honestly were like getting pretty good at like we had no phones in our room for a while And then we had a child and like our monitors on the phone.
but just thinking of how these things that you learn when you take care of young people and babies that we think we grow out of, but our bodies and our nervous systems still really need and benefit. Maybe even more so when we're adults, but we just go through the hectic craziness of life and forget those things.
And for performing for me, I'm a country folky, musician. I don't even know how to describe what type of work I do. But I, started, we went to a jazz conservatory in New York, but then I started playing bar gigs. And going on tour like, very DIY, and, driving a van around, playing three hour bar gigs, mixed in with club dates, So much early on involved alcohol, you're in a bar, you're playing, there's not necessarily like a proper green room, and I saw how detrimental that was for my health and my emotional being and changing like who I was and how I was behaving and there came a time where I stopped drinking alcohol I now will have alcohol occasionally, but I will never have any alcohol before performing because it used to be like a crutch and now I feel like it's so disorienting.
And I remember when I was going through that first process, I grew up with a family that often sought kind of alternative spiritual stuff like spiritual healers and energy workers and Reiki, and I was working with a spiritual healer who would. talk to me about collecting my energy before going on and then not leaving my energy behind on stage.
[00:23:33] Madam Gandhi: Wow.
[00:23:34] Michaela: And I saw a really big difference especially when I removed alcohol, that I didn't have that lubricant to like, try and make me think I wasn't nervous. even if it was, two minutes, and I would go in the bathroom, because maybe I would feel like, self conscious if somebody saw me doing this kind of thing, and I would physically use my arms to call in my energy and be like, okay, why am I going on stage right now?
Because before I would go on stage and be like, okay, I have to impress everybody. I have to do well. And I shifted my conscious thinking of I'm going on stage to offer love to whoever is out there. open and willing to receive it. and knowing that that might not be every single person in the room, especially when I'm an opening act and I'm going out in front of other people's audiences where they don't know who I am,
and some might be talking or whatever, and so I had to really consciously be like, I'm going to offer love to whoever is willing and open to accept it and who needs it.
[00:24:30] Madam Gandhi: Yes.
[00:24:31] Michaela: that made such a difference for me and made performance so much more enjoyable. I'm not great at remembering to do that every single time, but I feel such a difference when I do it. And then when I leave, saying to myself Okay. Bring all my energy with me don't stay out there.
I still have such a weird conflict of like, I've, done all these practices, but then I still have this little voice that's like, that's silly. you're so hokey and so I feel self conscious to let other people in on it.
[00:25:00] Madam Gandhi: mean, This is so profound what you're saying. First of all, that's an incredible practice and you've just blessed me with some good information for my three o'clock talk to take my energy home with me and to, make sure that I'm leading with love. So thank you for that. And for anybody who's listening, maybe I'll put that into practice because it's brilliant.
And see when I don't agree with somebody else's thing, or if I think their thing is silly, I don't need to tell them. I just think of it in my own head and I move on. But if someone's going out of their way to be like, that's silly, that's foolish. they're actually actively causing harm.
And we have to be very sharp in our practices and our belief that what we are doing has goodness, that it's love based.
hmm. We know, fear is the opposite of love it's a fear based response. Sometimes people are not ready, so that's okay, you just stay strong in your ninja. Guru spirit, we, as musicians, we are the channelers.
It's no coincidence that the age old spiritual practices have a musical and singing mantra component, whether it's churches, whether it's Hindu mantras, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam is a reason when I go to Turkey, when I go to Dubai and a couple of times a day, I'm hearing the call to prayer. I mean, It's humbling.
I feel good in my body, even though I'm not a Muslim, I feel nice energy in my body. This is stunning. does sound like God, Yeah.
we have to be razor strong in our belief system, that we're part of something that's making sense. And those voices they're fear based voices. And when they're ready to come with us on the journey, we welcome them with open arms.
[00:26:18] Michaela: even if it's not aligned with the, vast majority of the people around you or the society that you're operating in and living with, how to stay rooted in what your belief system are and the daily practice of realigning with it.
a couple weeks ago I was talking to a girlfriend who is a musician and also a mother and I'm always going to her to talk about my dilemmas about career and like the limitations that I feel like people put on me because Oh, well you had a baby so you're, busy and like, how are we going to do this?
And I was talking to her and she looked at me and she goes, Oh, you still. Deeply internalize the patriarchal system, even though you know better, and I was like, yeah. Like, Even though I talk in all of this way, but I'm like, oh yeah, it's so ingrained
[00:27:05] Madam Gandhi: in this way, a hundred percent, and, but you are smartly speaking in this way, because. You yourself are combating these difficult voices. it's the same reason why I'm putting this good stuff into my music. It's because ultimately this is a medicine that I need. And if it's something that I need, it's very highly likely that the next person also needs this.
We are much more similar than we are different. So it actually makes quite a lot of sense that you are. Putting into practice these rituals that keep you on the path, because the path is challenging. Absolutely. Correct. And in terms of the misogyny, it's both and because actually raising a kid is time demanding.
So it's not an unreasonable belief system that somebody thinks that we're going to be busy when we have a kid. It's a very fair assumption. But what we don't want is for them to put those limits on us. May we be wise enough to own our own boundaries and own our own limitations and have it come from within outwards rather than Having to respond to the naysayers,
[00:27:56] Michaela: Yeah. And that. In American society, especially those limitations or that recognition of the challenges and the time restraints of parenting are seen fully as a negative thing. That's an, and only for females and inconvenient rather than, oh yeah, this is a time in life that is going to require more of your time and make.
things challenging, but we recognize as a society how important this is to raise good families. So we have systems in place to support, encourage that, and don't put it all on a woman. That's the difference to me, and it's so fascinating watching Aaron as my partner because We have a very, as much as possible, like a 50 50 parenting approach we are constantly negotiating in a really, a way that I'm very grateful for, of how to support each other in our careers and really share the load of childcare, and he'll go on tour with me where I'm performing solo and he will just come and take care of our daughter and like drive and, people are always like, that's incredible.
And Aaron's like, to me privately, he's like, that's nice. But if the roles were reversed, do you think they'd be like, so enamored by you doing that for me? It's like, probably not.
[00:29:12] Madam Gandhi: No, but listen, but you know what like good I'm happy that you embodying the change and of course They're surprised because the contrast is what has been which is the last Hundreds of years of us as women being the primary caregiver and the men providing the resources I mean, that's the patriarchal construct, isn't it?
But now the women can make the money now the fathers can enjoy the joy of fatherhood What an honor for all of us, it's a benefit And I think the new masculinity is moving away from the flex of, I'm not involved with my family and I'm making millions of dollars. The new flex is I know how to be balanced.
I know how to show up as a man of character. I know how to show up with great respect. I'm also balancing these incredible aspects of my life, fatherhood and making money. What an honor to actually be able to do it all because maybe my own father was not involved and I missed him. I don't want to do that to my own kid.
I want to be the father structure, I've benefited from the times that my father was in my life. he also very much had a demanding career when we were growing up. And so I only feel like I'm really bonding with him in this phase. Not as much as when I was a kid. So it's an honor for both the men and the women for all the parents, you know, on both sides, I think it's quite cool.
[00:30:13] Michaela: As we progress in our society to also be more reflective of and recognizing of so many different family structures that aren't just man, woman, heterosexual relationships, father, mother, that then that can, In turn, help build a more equitable society and equality but expand our sense and idea of family and the roles that we all play within those families that expand beyond gender.
one of the reasons that we started this podcast is because when the pandemic hit, so many touring musicians and friends of ours were talking about how, almost like it was like a dirty secret of like, I'm actually really relieved to be at home
[00:30:53] Madam Gandhi: Oh, sure. Sure. We're right.
[00:30:55] Michaela: live a good life. And then, things came back and people are out there, trying to make up for lost time and the touring landscape and venues and everything. And we've been increasingly seen on every level, just what a struggle it can be to sustain and the economics of it.
And we started this because we wanted to have these very real conversations that were happening at our dining room table, and bring them to light so people felt less alone. And of course, the nitty gritty of the economics and that, but also the emotional undertaking of being a touring musician and traveling all the time.
the ups and downs, the post tour depression, if you can talk a little bit about that, if you've grown to kind of find ways to. Be a healthy, rounded person while still living this life that can be a little at odds with what it is to take care of yourself.
[00:31:46] Madam Gandhi: Yes. I really appreciate this question because when the pandemic hit, I felt the post tour depression very strongly. I didn't feel what you're describing, which is a sense of gratitude to be still. I felt great tragedy in being still. was just like so upset about it. I love traveling and it actually realized it'll actually allowed me to have the reflection of, Oh, interesting.
Am I using the travel in an addictive way? Which is the escapism. And as we do as musicians, constant stimulation because you're on planes and you're landing somewhere and you have to advance this show and that show. And you know, many things that I could be subconsciously using as a distraction, it really forced me to confront those things.
I also noticed like my own sense of self worth plummeted when I didn't have this constant sense of like accolades and like things coming my way or the feeling of having all that love when you're on the stage and then you come off the stage. that wasn't in my band, in my life. And even though I actually feel quite lucky with how many virtual performances I gave, the thing that I learned about virtual is that when you turn off the phone or the camera or the video, there's nobody around.
You're like, okay well, uh, thanks so much and bye. And now I'm by myself and it's nine o'clock PM what are we going to do now? This is
[00:32:49] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:32:50] Madam Gandhi: And it was very funny because I was like, wow, this is even worse it just didn't feel good.
And so I really learned the hard way that I have to develop my own sense of self worth and spiritual practices from the inside out. And so, of course, in that way, it was good for me. The first thing that I did was really look at what I was eating and substances and all that and just cut everything out fully.
It was hard line, no, eating not fully plant based. You know, For everybody that's different, I don't actually think that everyone needs to be plant based, but I can see how, for me, those hard lines really work. No meat, no coffee, no alcohol, no gluten, I love matcha, you know, that's my morning routine, it's green tea, that kind of thing fasting has really helped me, eating at one o'clock, just creating like, boundaries, and then what helps is that then when I'm on the road, I'm maintaining those boundaries, so I feel quite proud of myself, because I think before I used to give a pass like, oh, well, I'm jet lagged, oh well, this, oh, well, that, and actually, the more you clean your channels, you're actually quite resilient I noticed even my ability to adjust to the local time is a lot easier for me because I'm drinking water and I'm resting and I'm not eating badly.
So the body is just more light and more resilient. And it's amazing to watch how generous the body is with us. Actually, even two, three days of changing your habits, you see immediate results. It's quite profound.
I think my journey with my spirituality, cleaning up what I was eating, cleaning up my behaviors, my patterns, they've really served me now that I go back on the road.
And it's fun because people will be like, oh, you're gonna love this mocktail. Oh, you're gonna, I'm gonna take you to the best vegan spot in town. Oh, you're gonna love this cold plunging place, which I just went to yesterday in Toronto. Because when you then speak about these things that matter to you, the universe supports you.
And so I'm always blown away because my friend, like, even when I landed in Toronto, they're like you gotta eat at Planta, you gotta eat at Fresh, we're gonna get you cold plunging, take a yoga class at this spot, you're gonna love this running route. People are very inclusive around the wellness that's what you're saying you wanna do.
Community is one thing, doing these activities with others. And then just having strong practices it's like when you bowl and you don't put the guiding lanes up, you might go into the gutter. So I just permanently just keep those guiding lanes up. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bumpers.
[00:34:49] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:34:50] Madam Gandhi: Like then I know I'm knocking some pins, even if it's a bad day, at least some pins got knocked down.
[00:34:54] Aaron: I go in and out of being vegetarian, being plant-based, all that. I think the first time I started it was like from age 16 to age 20, I think I was vegetarian and I've been, been in and out, I got interested in I did yoga and meditation around like 18 and all of these different like yeah II got there through eating a lot of psychedelics and I'm like this feels amazing and then I was like, okay, how do I do this without drugs?
[00:35:17] Madam Gandhi: let's really Feature that because that is the main message actually with psychedelics. the mushrooms don't want us taking mushrooms every day. The mushrooms are like, here's the homework, go back down to the planet and make the world a better place.
We don't need you to sit in the dream world every day. We need you to actually take this incredible knowledge and implement it because you have a physical body on this physical plane right now. And I'm so glad I really want to like underscore that with the psychedelics, they're not like addictive drugs.
The point is. Receive the blessing and go and do something about it.
[00:35:45] Aaron: you can fall into. Being in, the psychedelic world so much that it becomes escapism, and so this totally ties into what I was saying is that I very easily fall into like, being black or white, all or nothing, like this is the right thing. This is the wrong and all of that.
And what I've learned is that. Being plant based or, not drinking coffee or being sober it can be right for a time maybe it doesn't suit you later, but the key to all of this is being intentional. if you're like I am vegan, that is a very intentional way of living.
And that's great. eating a more plant based diet. Diet suits me and suits my body and my energy but totally does not suit Michaela. She becomes weak She gets sick like her body makeup needs the meat. so it's like
[00:36:24] Madam Gandhi: as well.
[00:36:24] Aaron: yeah, so that doesn't make it wrong It's like the intentionality of it
[00:36:27] Madam Gandhi: Yes with awareness. Exactly. I totally agree and also the flexibility That's why we don't have to put it on other people and tell other people what they have to do We just need to walk and be the embodiment With the flexibility to change or adapt the model as is needed and as more information becomes available I really appreciate that. It's true.
[00:36:43] Michaela: I Wanted to ask how cuz I think about this a lot with I love traveling like if I had my way I would be Flying to a different country every other And Aaron also loves traveling, but he's a bit more like, can we just be grounded just for a little bit? And especially bringing a child into the mix the first year she was born, I was like taking her everywhere. but how do you reconcile that with Climate change and contributing to climate change, I've had different people say like, Oh, musicians are so you're negatively contributing. I'm like not to the degree of these massive corporations.
but how do you personally reconcile that with your own understanding of the massive levels that really are needed for change and our personal responsibility?
[00:37:29] Madam Gandhi: I really love this question. I'm, you know, we can always do better. I'll start by saying that. The more information I have, though, the more I'm able to implement change. So one thing, and I'll address the flights in a moment, but one thing on my, rider is that we have a whole sustainability section, and so We request the venues if you have compostable bins, can you also use compostable reusable materials whether it's for the forks or the cups or whatever.
If you don't have bins, no problem. can you bring like refillable water tank so that we can put our own water in our own water bottles? Can you eliminate straws completely? wherever we can ask for these things, we try to highlight it. So at the very least, even if they can't accommodate it, it's an opportunity for education.
So that's one and it's great because the path teaches me like now I also carry my own yellow water bottle when I'm traveling on flights that I'm not buying water bottles in the airplane and things Like that. So that's a big one and that's a small one. But exactly right if every day I'm using water bottles and wasting Plastic that's one less thing that we can do for the flights.
You know, it's a tricky one. Some conferences, they always talk about how they're buying carbon offsets. So they've planted trees. So then therefore offset the fact that they're finding somebody in for a talk. Some people have a strong green practice. Others do not. I think the flights, you know, even Paris has a really interesting thing, which is that if you are traveling to a city that is under two hours of a plane ride that you actually have to take a train that you can't take the plane.
You have to take the electric. Train because it's cleaner. People push back on that because they're like, convenience of a 4 hour train ride versus a 1 hour flight is not something that I want to grapple with. But I think these kinds of experimental alternatives give the consumer choice.
So for me, that's a big 1 right now. there's not a solution just yet in terms of like immediately fully not getting on the plane That's not a choice that I've made because I believe the impact that I have when I arrive and speak is one of value But it's true, you know, if there's ways that we can be more mindful I think there's so many companies now that are working on cleaner ways of traveling that I'd love to participate I think it's a step by step
[00:39:19] Aaron: Yeah. remember the day that I became like very afraid of climate change. It was in fifth grade and we watched a video, and they were calling it global warming at the time. And I'd heard the word around, but I literally thought like in my naive little 10 year old mind that global warming was
[00:39:33] Madam Gandhi: It's a good thing.
[00:39:34] Aaron: Yeah. This international movement to like love each other and hold hands and hug and everybody be warm. And I saw like pictures Yeah And in that video I remember I saw pictures of People in like hazmat suits And like toxic spills and all that And I was scared, it just shook me and so it's been A big thing in my life Since then, And I've been like a strong proponent for recycling everything that we can composting I went through a big phase where the only meat that I ate was local and from small farms because I was like, okay, my money talks.
And so I want to support local agriculture that
[00:40:08] Madam Gandhi: yes,
[00:40:08] Aaron: and one thing that I've really focused on lately maybe it's being a little bit jaded, but is how much this campaign You know in the states like reduce reuse recycle how much of that was actually funded by oil companies to put the
[00:40:20] Madam Gandhi: No, the U. S. is, everyone's in bed with everyone. It's
[00:40:23] Aaron: It's It's insane.
I have to say like on a marketing level It's genius on a humanely like moral level It's absolutely evil in that it's like you put the responsibility of saving the planet on the individual and on the consumer So that they feel the shame and they feel the guilt and they feel Of course, everything that we do as individuals makes an impact, we can't let these much bigger corporations off the hook.
You know, it's like, I can recycle everything that I use for the rest of my life, grow all of my own food. live a zero waste life, and I probably won't save the world. I might influence people, but that alone isn't going to save the world because we have places like Shell and Exxon,
[00:41:00] Madam Gandhi: yes,
[00:41:00] Michaela: And then understanding, like, where is the bigger impact of, like, how you vote in local elections as well. And,
[00:41:07] Madam Gandhi: yes,
well said.
[00:41:08] Aaron: So you've joined us from this, conference and you juggle absolutely so much. one thing that I see in our community and from our listeners is that it's so solidly focused on their artistic career and like, I need to create, I need to put out music. how is it to have such a diverse range of things that you create that you're involved with?
Does it feel like you're getting stretched thin or is it all encompassing and centered mission and a goal?
[00:41:34] Madam Gandhi: it's so straightforward. Does it sound fun or does it sound boring? That's the metric. Does it sound fun or does it sound boring? It's so simple. When we procrastinate something it's because we don't want to do it. Now obviously there are certain things that require discipline, that make us a better person, that are challenges, so those are the things that we should absolutely Do and go for but there's many things that don't light us up and we still saying yes to it Why life is precious life is short life must be joyful when we feel happy We live long when we feel in good energy.
We draw people towards us to make the world a better place So for me, it's simple when I received the opportunity to speak with you. It sounded fun. So let's do it Let's make it happen. And when it doesn't sound fun, you gently let the folks know listen, it's not gonna happen and actually You're protecting them, right?
When we say no to somebody because we don't want to go to the thing or do the thing, let them find somebody who wants to joyfully show up, right? When somebody comes to me and they say yes, because they think they have to, but they show up tired, moody, late, doesn't benefit me. I would have preferred you just say no.
And I'll find somebody who wants to come and be my tour manager or be my bassist or be my drummer or whatever. Come with a nice energy. Don't come mad that the budget is not big enough. You said, yes. Just say
[00:42:42] Aaron: Yeah. 100%.
[00:42:44] Madam Gandhi: Yeah, better. You free us all by telling the truth. It's actually a simple one, you know. If it lights me up, it's a yes.
You get up early. If you hype to do it, you'll set the alarm and get up early. If you don't want to do it, you're gonna be dragging. Nobody wants that. You don't want that. So, That's the final message. Optimize for your joy.
[00:43:01] Aaron: I love that. The way I've heard that put so succinctly is, when you get asked to do something, if it's not a hell yes, then it's a hell no. Yeah.
[00:43:07] Madam Gandhi: Exactly.
[00:43:08] Michaela: Yeah. Thank you so much. This was a beautiful
[00:43:11] Aaron: conversation.
[00:43:11] Madam Gandhi: You both are an inspiration.
[00:43:13] Aaron: Thank you for sharing so much with
[00:43:14] Michaela: us. Thank you. I'm so happy to know you now.
Yeah.
[00:43:17] Madam Gandhi: too! See you all soon then.
[00:43:19] Michaela: Yes. We look forward to it. Hope to cross paths in a physical plane.
[00:43:23] Madam Gandhi: Yes, and to jam in that cool room.
[00:43:25] Aaron: Yes. You're welcome anytime you're in Nashville. Come on by.
[00:43:28] Madam Gandhi: Thank
[00:43:28] Aaron: All right. Okay.
[00:43:29] Michaela: Thank you.
[00:43:30] Madam Gandhi: Bye friends. See you. Bye bye