Mary Bragg is an acclaimed songwriter, producer, coach, and on faculty at Berklee School of Music. We go deep on her songwriting process, cowriting dynamics, and how coming out opened up her creativity.
Mary Bragg is an acclaimed songwriter, producer, coach, and on faculty at Berklee School of Music. We go deep on her songwriting process, cowriting dynamics, and how coming out opened up her creativity.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode at The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
[00:00:05] Michaela: And I'myour other host, Michaela Anne, if you are a brand new listener, thank you so much for checking us out.
Welcome, and if you're a returning listener, thank you for. Continuing to come back.
[00:00:15] Aaron: For those of you that are returning listeners, we love hearing your feedback, so thank you for sending so many messages. We read as many of them as we can.
If you have a minute, please consider leaving a rating on your podcast platform of choice. These ratings go a long way to bringing new listeners to the show, and the more listeners we have, the more guests we have, and the more guests we have, the more ideas that we can share with our community.
And we'd like to think that this is a show from our community, for our community. So thank you for being a part of it.
[00:00:40] Michaela: We're not your typical promo show, sorry, publicists. We like to talk to artists in the off cycle times, the times when we can focus on the behind the scenes tools and routines they found helpful in staying inspired, creative, sane, while building a career around their art
[00:00:58] Aaron: with so much that is outside of our control in this business.
We wanted to focus what is within our control. And so with that, we decided to invite some of our friends and some of our favorite artists on to ask them the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? Through the magic of podcast Time travel.
By the time this show airs, we will just be getting back from three weeks in Europe.
[00:01:19] Michaela: Just be getting back from three weeks in Europe and with only a few days at home before we head out again for a festival, this is all with a two year old in
[00:01:29] Aaron: tow? Yeah. What, I think I did the math the other day.
It's. nine flights while in Europe, between shows in Scotland and the uk and Sweden and Norway and Germany and Holland. Putting a bunch of stamps on that little baby's
[00:01:43] Michaela: passport. Yeah, and I'm just praying she doesn't get an ear infection. That's the biggest, thing, but it's all one big adventure and I really do think that.
She's gonna somehow remember this and think it's pretty incredible all the places she's been.
[00:01:58] Aaron: At the least we will remember it and I'm sure we'll have a whole episode on traveling with infants at some man point in
[00:02:06] Michaela: time. Oh man. Yeah, that's a great idea. I get have gotten so many tips and tricks from just texting other musician
[00:02:13] Aaron: moms, yeah, and we've shared a bunch on this podcast already. I know our episode, number five with shovels and rope. We talked to Carrie Ann and Michael quite a bit about Parenthood episode 12 with Layla Macala. Talks a lot about Parenthood, with BJ Barham from American Aquarium. Parenthood comes up quite a bit here, but maybe it's time to get into the nitty gritty of this is our experience.
This is what we did, and this is how little we slept on a tour for three weeks in Europe. Yeah, it's on the show now. So hold us accountable. Send us those messages if it doesn't come up in the next. Two months.
[00:02:47] Michaela: Okay. Today's guest is a longtime, very dear friend of ours, Mary Bragg. Mary Bragg is a prolific songwriter, beloved in the Nashville musician community.
she is an incredible producer. And, years ago when she started dipping her toes into that, she said that she saw A statistic in Billboard that said less than 3% of producers in the music business are women. And that motivated her to step fully into that and go back to school and she's doing really incredible
[00:03:19] Aaron: things.
Yeah that right there just sums up who Mary is. She's a go-getter. She's driven, she is resilient. And she shares. A lot of that strength and a lot of that was in this conversation that we had today and it was really inspiring for both Mikayla and I. I think one of the overarching things we talked about was zooming out.
Which is something I love to talk about, getting that 10,000 foot view of what's going on both in yourself and in your career, in your to-do list so that you're seeing the forest rather than every single tree that's whizzing by and in your art and in your songs, and taking a wider view of all of those.
[00:03:52] Michaela: Yeah, it was one of the most in-depth conversations we've had on the actual writing process. We have so many songwriters on this podcast, but I think this might be the first time we really got into the nitty gritty of how she writes songs and thinks about writing songs.
[00:04:10] Aaron: we also talked about viewing your relationship to your creativity as just that, as a relationship, and that your creativity is your friend, and it's something that's there for you regardless of what's going on in your career or your bank account or everything else.
It's something that you can lean on, find comfort in, find solace, and find help. and we go really deep in the final question of this episode. So stick around to the end. This conversation with Mary is jam-packed and we love it.
So without further ado, here's our conversation with Mary Bragg.
[00:04:39] Michaela: How are you doing today?
[00:04:41] Mary: I am doing well today, actually. It's a rare day that I get to be at home all day and I got to sleep early, which means my body was happy to wake up with joy at 7:00 AM Sorry. And I, have had some exercise and A sweet little moment to myself outside and another moment to myself outside, and a few moments of work it's a nice day. that I get to pace it out in the way that I'd like for it To be paced.
And yeah, all's well, It's a good day so far, and the sun is shining and there's no rain today, so I'm here for that.
[00:05:17] Aaron: Yeah. you have like a morning routine that sounds like a little bit of a morning routine
[00:05:21] Mary: I'm not one to have routines that are very reliably kept. In terms of when they occur. I certainly do?
a lot of things that occur in some cycle, but not in a way that's like, I know that every day I'm gonna wake up and go straight to X, y, or Z. Um, Coffee is routine.
[00:05:41] Michaela: Sure. Such a wonderful
[00:05:43] Mary: sort of like healthy breakfast is a routine.
you know, It depends on the day. There's definitely like y'all know this is not the kind of business where you can trust that you're gonna have any sort of routine that you can count on.
[00:05:54] Michaela: one of the things that we would love to talk to you about today is All the different things that you have going on. we talk a lot about diversifying careers as musicians, creatives. There's also this aspect of being entrepreneurs and you definitely, in the last several years, we've seen you diversify what you do and offer.
So what is kind of a typical week for you? Because you are writing songs, you're making your own music, you're helping others make their music, you're producing records, you are teaching at Berkeley back in New York City, even though you now live once more in Nashville.
[00:06:31] Mary: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:32] Michaela: you also tour what? Is there anything that seems typical or is every day and every week really different?
[00:06:42] Mary: is it fair to say that it's typical for everything to change constantly? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
know, I mean that's, that I think so far for me and where I am in my life right now, I'm still in this period of growth for a number of pieces of what I do that I sort of have come to be okay with the amount of change that's occurring intermittently.
Sometimes I'm totally not okay inside with the amount of change that's occurring, but I don't know, I just generally believe in saying yes to things, um, which has, wise has gotten me into a lot of trouble. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
You know, not really, but in terms of keeping a lid on the amount of commitment that you put into something, I'm definitely working on that in myself right now.
But I am trying to, however, and still like some amount of, limits some amount of an awareness of what I'm putting in my schedule because in my previous Nashville chapter when I'm, I moved here in 2013. Didn't y'all move here around the same time?
[00:07:43] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:07:44] Michaela: 2014
[00:07:45] Mary: after.
Yeah.
I've, it was very late 2013 and I just treated myself like I had a pub deal even though I didn't.
And so I was just writing constantly and I would just flood my calendar with as many rights as possible and also trying to figure out How to make money and tour and all that. And, it's been an interesting shift to realize that writing seven times a week is not always the best move.
especially when other parts of your business are changing and growing, there has to be an adjustment for, what you're giving all of yourself to.
So right now I'm trying not to write more than twice a week actually with other people. wanna leave time for myself if I don't leave the time for myself, I won't do it. And I, cause I won't have the time or the bandwidth, the emotional bandwidth, the mental bandwidth. you
[00:08:33] Michaela: hard is that for you?
[00:08:34] Mary: which part, leaving time for myself.
[00:08:37] Michaela: I'm learning that I have to put it in my calendar because if it's not in my calendar and something comes up, then I'll fill it. And then all of a sudden, I literally just texted Erin an hour ago saying, oh my God, I'm overscheduled and overwhelmed.
And, it's really hard because you are so programmed to say yes because of what you believe, is always trying to stay open and connected for our careers, but also if that's just your personality, that you're someone who's excited
[00:09:07] Mary: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:08] Michaela: Experiences and working with people and seeing people, oh my
[00:09:12] Mary: yeah, I love people and I love community and also as it turns out, I need to remember my own. Really, it's a mental health thing. Because if I, if I do get to that point, which I have gotten to many times, I lose it a little bit. And I just have some sort of unpredictable breaking point, which you never wanna see in yourself.
And you certainly don't wanna catch yourself in a moment like that in a work environment when you're like, there's so many things happening at once in your brain, and you can really only handle so much of it
[00:09:44] Aaron: I'm horrible at scheduling, like personal time. I'm, I'm, I'm, at scheduling, like family time. I have days that are set aside, like I will not book any work then. And he's expecting social time.
[00:09:54] Michaela: He's better at that. Yeah. I'm like, max it out. And he's like, we need to chill.
[00:09:59] Mary: wow.
[00:10:00] Aaron: Yeah. It doesn't recharge me. I'm one that if I'm like really busy, I'm like, we don't need to see anybody. I just wanna disappear and completely reset, which is, that's also not healthy. I think there's a middle ground that works. The question that I had though is you wear so many different hats, you know, songwriter, artist, producer, teacher, do you schedule time because there's, obviously tasks involved with all of those that are not face to face with other people.
So do you schedule that time in your schedule to take care of those like things that only you can handle for each thing? Does that make sense?
[00:10:31] Mary: For each element of each function.
[00:10:32] Aaron: Yeah. You know what I mean? For instance, I would assume that for your classes, there's certain things that you have to prep.
There's
all of the things of being an artist, whether it's, planning your record or post recording, doing all of that, or tour planning, so all of those things that only you can do. Do you plan that time or is it just a running list of stuff that you kind of tackle as it comes up?
[00:10:51] Mary: It's a little bit of both. So thankfully the, thing that I said yes to and had a beautiful time doing for Berkeley this year, but last semester in the fall was teaching in person two sections of the same class, the craft of songwriting.
So every Sunday I knew that I couldn't, go out in any way because there was an, fair amount of prep that I needed to do to really even learn how to be a teacher. I was never on some sort of teacher track, and I certainly loved being in conversations about songs, but, the teaching element and figuring out how to structure your class, that was something that I definitely had to spend a lot of time on every Sunday.
So that was like, yes, scheduled. Mary is sitting, staring at her laptop for three hours, four hours prepping for the class. And then this semester, teaching is a very small part of my schedule. This semester all I'm doing is advising students on their thesis projects, and then I'll go and adjudicate thesis defenses next month, which will be fun and go to graduation.
But really overall, that's a very small part of my life, um, in terms of the schedule and the other pieces, it's, I would say, unfortunately, is still sort of a mess of a running list every day. I right now I'm still looking at the same list from, I think a week ago because so many of the things on that list just take a long time to complete.
And it's one of those kinds of lists where if you try to explain it to someone else, it might be completely unfruitful to ha even have the conversation because they might see like, Holly and I, my partner and I have talked about, she's like, make a list of only the things you have to do right now.
I'm like, but that doesn't make any sense for me. So I've tried, I've tried parsing it out being like, priorities A, B, C, and D for today are X and I'm gonna do those things. And the reality is that's not how my brain works. I'm trying to get better at Not overwhelming myself with the amount of things I have to do every day.
But I like to sort of have, it's, maybe it's the way I think in general, it's like I've zoom out As a writer, as an artist, as a producer, as a teacher, I'm always like, how can we see the entire picture Mm-hmm. of something? Which is, when it comes to a, tactical list of getting things done doesn't always help.
[00:13:06] Aaron: Yeah. I, I love that. I love the idea of zooming out like a, having like a 10,000 foot view over everything that's going on it helps me, prioritize I guess a little bit of what needs to happen, but it also helps me like not get completely stressed out having a list that like As soon as you cross off the thing at the top, there's three things at the bottom that pop up as well. So zooming out is a great way for me to stay grounded in everything. Yeah.
[00:13:29] Michaela: And also our, it's such a challenging when you're juggling so many things in your life, how our brain naturally functions to juggle them.
And then what we need to do that might not feel natural to help ourselves is really challenging. Like Aaron is so organized and he uses this whole system on click up and that's how we organize everything for the podcast. But he set it all up and it's been such a process for me to understand
[00:14:01] Aaron: self, self-admittedly,
[00:14:02] Mary: That's great.
[00:14:03] Aaron: self-admittedly, is probably extremely complex, but I'm like, no.
It's simply you click this and then this automation happens, but then you have to go here and click this and move this. But it's totally simple and everything stays on top.
[00:14:13] Mary: So you basically have a click up for yourself is what you're saying, and for the two of you, is that right?
[00:14:17] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:14:18] Mary: I haven't even thought about doing a click up for myself. I've heard about in the terms of a team, but that
[00:14:22] Aaron: Ev, every single thing that I do, every facet of my business, whether it's production, writing sync, session work,
[00:14:29] Mary: It all has a click up.
[00:14:30] Aaron: marketing, everything I have, I it, it's deep. I mean, I've been continuously refining it for about seven months now and it's like the only way that I
[00:14:39] Mary: I love this.
[00:14:40] Aaron: on top of everything that's
[00:14:41] Michaela: happening and to juxtapose that my life, which I have, you know, my own recording and writing tour, planning tour planning overseas.
So many logistics, so many band mates and musicians to organize. I have all my coaching and teaching. I have, 20 some students I'm juggling all the time. And my system is literally sending myself emails of
[00:15:06] Mary: Oh, wow.
[00:15:07] Michaela: frantic to-do list when I'm lying in bed the night before and scratching it down on sticky notes around my desk.
[00:15:14] Mary: Yeah. Whatever
[00:15:16] Michaela: we're married. Yeah.
[00:15:17] Mary: yeah.
Whatever works. But although aren't we at a weird stage in our lives and careers where, self-awareness is the first step. Right? Like acknowledging that, yes, we might be in a sort of post-it note habit. I'm definitely in that, I'm certainly more in the category of disarray in terms of the organization of my lists.
acknowledging that maybe a little bit more of the other side of, of a habit could benefit the way we might move forward in our awareness and like interest and really like saving ourselves some unnecessary, stress.
I'm trying to chill out y'all. I mean, like, I'm trying to work hard, but oh my gosh, I'm, This happens to me every year. People are talking about vacation. I'm like, what are you talking about? Do you know what I mean? I'm, I'm really bad at like, the journey toward giving yourself a break. I
[00:16:13] Michaela: think again, because when we're creatives and our, passion is our career. We love playing music, we love creating music. It's also our work. we love to go on tour. So it's really hard to then decide, oh, I also need a time to step away from that. And that's actually really helpful and vital and, vacation would really do my mind some good, but, A lot of us don't have a lot of like hobbies or things outside of what we do because our hobby as children was the thing that we've created our, life and our career around.
[00:16:51] Mary: even when I go on vacation, my songwriter brain will never quit. I don't know how to shut it down and. That's a great problem to have and a difficult problem to have because I really do want to be able to go on VA legitimately.
I want to go on vacation and not think about how this experience is informing my next song. You know? And I appreciate what that great gift is, but I also need to learn how to turn that off at least in some capacity when I'm actually taking a break. I don't have any practice with that
[00:17:25] Aaron: Yeah, I can relate to that. It's almost like the feeling of like wanting to take pictures of everywhere that you are. Everybody has a camera in their pocket. It's like, oh, I wanna remember this, I wanna experience this. Let's take a picture. it's great to be inspired by it, but I think maybe it's the concept of just being present. You're actually absorbing more and getting more fuel for what you can create. After the fact.
But,
[00:17:47] the-other-22-hours-p_19-mary-bragg_aaron_shafer_haiss-4gkj2lc4x_cfr-synced_2023-may-10-1659pm-utc-riverside: but
[00:17:47] Michaela: I think I would easier said than done. I, I would almost argue against it though, and say, do you have to turn it off?
Because you're a songwriter by profession, but also creating songs is how you make sense of the world and your experiences and your emotions and for
[00:18:05] Mary: therapy for sure for me,
[00:18:07] Michaela: Yeah. And so when you're on vacation, that's when most songs come to me,
Yeah's good. I'm not getting hit with a lot of song ideas when I'm in my daily routine.
[00:18:18] Mary: Hmm.
[00:18:18] Michaela: I write songs at home when I set up co-writing sessions. But if I'm cleaning my house and doing my tasks and stuff, I'm not really getting hit with that many ideas. I get hit with ideas like when we were in Morocco and I'm standing on the ocean having this epic, incredible experience, all of a sudden a song appears.
Or when I'm visiting family in Maine and like there are so many clear, very meaningful songs in my life that I know came from specific moments when I was not working, when I was not in my routine setting. That all comes from traveling and exploring and probably clearing my mind from I'm not dealing with the day-to-day work.
[00:19:00] Aaron: Yeah. I think that's kind of touching on, you said it much more eloquently. Songwriter than I did. Um, in that like, ideas only pop up when your mind is still, if you're constantly jumping from one thing to the other, there's no room for an idea to pop up. And so I guess
[00:19:15] Mary: It's so funny.
[00:19:17] Aaron: just being there and being present and having the space of mind.
Mm-hmm. And I think, maybe not just jumping directly to writing, like in that moment,
but kind of letting the, the ideas form and marinate and then be like, cool. Hi. Hi idea. I'll see you in a week when I'm back at my
[00:19:32] Mary: dude, it's so yes. Yes. Double yes. And it is nuts to me how different our brains all are
[00:19:39] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:39] Mary: Because people operate in that space so differently. For me, when I come across an idea, it's usually like, blank canvas turns into like tons of paint on the tapestry all at once So for me, I really love to write down an idea, the context around the idea that got me excited in the first place. And then, sometimes it's the tapestry you know, I can sort of see what should happen and then I do go and write it down not just have just the phrase or just the title, but be like, oh, this is gonna happen and this and this.
And then I've also written with people that are so genius I'm not like this. I'm not the genius. People are so good with brains that don't stop like you were talking about like, it won't happen unless you stop. I think it does happen for some people that are wired that way. I've seen it in rooms with people that are just like crazy geniuses that like you can just see them experiencing language so constantly, and then when they come across something that is incredibly good, they stop and you're like, oh,
[00:20:50] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:51] Mary: know, it's,
It's, and anyway, I'm just saying like, it is fascinating to me that like the writing process is so different
[00:20:56] Aaron: Yeah, let's go back to what your brain does, cuz that was really intriguing. So the way I was hearing you, it just kind of just all falls is a lump.
[00:21:05] Mary: can.
[00:21:05] Aaron: is that like lyrically or is that kind of more in like a production sense? A feel sense.
[00:21:11] Mary: When I'd say that I'm really mostly talking about lyrics. Also the, answer to the common question that people have in, podcasts, not like this, but, sort of ask that rope question. Does the lyric come first? The melody come first and sometimes they are separate for me.
Most of the time these days, my better ideas start with a title or, an idea slightly separate from the melody. And then shortly after the sort of natural cadence of the melody the prosy of the phrase is gonna naturally inflect, and arrive at a melody that fits the phrase naturally, but, I think it can, arrive all at once.
But also the fun thing about, ideas that arrive is that you can just, pause. And I learned this from a, co-writer years ago. Once you have an idea, it's then your job to decide how you wanna write it you don't have to write the first thing that comes to mind.
As writers, we should all be considering what our options are there are a multitude of ways to come at an idea. Because the human experience, just like our brains are so different, every human experience is so different. So we should, consider, for a moment before we're like, in the race is that moment before they let the horses go at the top of a race, you are just like, okay, we're set.
is it? We're, what's it gonna happen? Which one's gonna win? But let's determine the direction we are most interested in going in the thing that sort of hits your heart the hardest.
[00:22:41] Michaela: Yeah, and I think that to me is what is exciting and also challenging about songwriting is because you're trying to say something potentially really big with a really small. Amount of words. A small amount of time.
[00:22:59] Mary: yeah.
real estate is so valuable. Ah, I'm always saying that, especially in class. I'm like, real estate square feet
[00:23:06] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:23:07] Mary: don't waste it. Don't?
[00:23:09] Michaela: economical. Yeah. With your words. And then like, okay, are the lyrics expressing what I want? And if they're not completely, how is the, the music and the melody and the harmony all going to influence what I wanna communicate? Because that's a, an important part as well. The lyrics aren't the only thing that share the story or the feeling that we're trying to convey.
mean, I think about you and I wrote, I wanted your opinion, you would know. And that took us three different times. I think we got together. And if I'm remembering correctly, I remember I had jotted down like the beginning of a verse
and I had said,
[00:23:45] Mary: Ever since, so, and the little girl, they said, pretty babe. That's right.
[00:23:49] Michaela: Yep. Yeah. And I was like, I wanna write a song about this image, this idea that we, grow up as girls under the male gaze and I still have all the papers.
I think we went through so many different iterations.
[00:24:03] Mary: And we had to talk through all the things that are at play in that particular experience, which is, again, different for every person, but we had a lot in common I wonder what those pages even say, because I remember that moment. But you keep going. You talk about those pages, talk
[00:24:23] Michaela: I just remember one time we started first at your house and then we met another month later at my house. And then, and I remember that we were trying to play with how to make it fun and cute and we were playing with saying I'm the cowboy king or something.
And then we finally, the last time we got together and we didn't force it, we were like, okay, it's not there yet. We need to come back to this. And we met again like a month or two later, you had a whole charcuterie spread and wine, and we started talking
[00:24:53] Mary: overachieving Mary. Settle down.
[00:24:57] Aaron: out.
You can't rush the idea, just coax it out, but we
[00:25:00] Michaela: started by sharing even more of our own experiences of sexism and, and, in this business particularly. And it got us to the point of we're trying to be too cute.
We're trying to veil it too much. Let's just be direct and what are we actually trying to say?
But that song is just an example to me of how sometimes you have to stumble and try all these different approaches and also give time.
[00:25:26] Mary: Time and for sure. And also rewriting is writing, right? And the opposite. Writing is rewriting. So many people especially in Nashville, it's like, all right, see you at 10 o'clock. You're done by one o'clock. You never revisit the write again. That song might end up on the radio. drives me nuts.
Because, there's so many opportunities to rewrite and make something better. And we do that a lot as solo writers. But I think we're sometimes hesitant to revisit something in a co-write simply because of the willingness to be vulnerable and honest with co-writer and say like, Hey, I feel like we should maybe, rewrite this line or whatever.
And to me that's Gold when you can not only do that for the sake of the work, but when you can start to develop that kind of relationship with a co-writer that you and I have written a ton of songs by now and we wouldn't have that relationship if either of us was coming to the table with some sort of ego that prohibited us from getting to the point where like, the work is better.
That was also an interesting example because working backwards is my favorite thing to do as a writer. When you have the title, you know what your North star is, then you're at the top of the race, right? Then you're, I'm not a sports person so I don't have all those words, but you're right there at the top of the race and the horses are like in position so you've determined where you think you want those arrows to land. But then doing the work is so imperative to consider again, how to write it, I love to write the chorus first. So that's what I mean by writing backwards. Write the chorus, then write your first verse, then write your second verse, blah, blah, blah. But sometimes the song comes like if I learned, your opinion started because you had the first several lines of the verse.
And that is to me, I just had this experience yesterday. I finished the song with someone, and it was a similar situation. We started with a verse, took us three sessions to get it right, because we were working top to bottom instead of working from the point out, Mm-hmm. we didn't know what the point was. Which is like, so much of the reason to me why something can take longer.
When you start at the beginning of the story, like no novelist starts in the chapter one. They know exactly what the point of that book is.
[00:27:47] Michaela: Interesting.
Mm-hmm.
[00:27:49] Mary: they don't have a book deal.
[00:27:51] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:51] Mary: I'm serious.
And
[00:27:53] Aaron: Yeah. You don't, You don't sell a book on the first sentence.
[00:27:55] Mary: Uhuh, I mean, you might if you're a Barbara King solver, but like you, definitely wanna have an idea for where you're going.
And it's not to say one way is better than the other because as a creative people, again, everybody's different. And sitting down and getting to a feel or whatever, like you might come across something that you fall in love with and you should, you also have permission to do that. But it does, if you write that way to me every single time, it takes longer to do it.
[00:28:20] Michaela: Yeah. I hadn't really thought about it that way, but that's an interesting, when I'm, going through my Rolodex of songs of how I wrote them. I'm like, oh yeah. The ones where the chorus comes first, it's often much easier because I feel like, especially in co-writing, if you start with the verse you and I have had those conversations, I feel like when we write together, we really talk through and what are we trying to say?
Like, mm-hmm. What's the point? Is the point this or is it this? Or is it this? So if you know from the beginning, this is it, and then we fill in the story.
[00:28:53] Mary: Yeah.
[00:28:54] Michaela: an interesting approach that obviously I do, but never thought about it.
[00:28:58] Mary: Hmm.
[00:28:59] Aaron: wanted to kind of circle back just a little bit to when you were talking about. Rewrites with a co-writer.
cuz co-writing is common here in Nashville and maybe in New York, maybe in the bigger places. But, I think there's a lot of our listeners that don't co-write, don't have access to co-writes or something like that.
Or just haven't started yet. one thing that I really admire about you is you're a go-getter and you know what you want and you go for it.
So with that in mind, were you always kind of the person that would go back to your co-writer and be like, no, let's keep going.
[00:29:29] Mary: No,
[00:29:29] Aaron: that something you had to develop?
[00:29:30] Mary: definitely something I had to develop?
And also there's a lot of, care that you have to bring and offer to that space because it is sometimes a delicate space that yes, you wanna be honest with your co-writer, but. If we're really being honest, this space also falls into that category of sometimes every amount of honesty.
Every piece of honesty is not kind because everybody feels differently about a song a lyric and a melody and about how good something is. And if I tell my co-writer, oh, I'm not really sure this is, our best song. Or I think that chorus that we wrote is crap or whatever. Mm-hmm. There's a way to approach that issue, you Mikayla, you've been a Merle Fest, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. did you ever do the songwriting contest there? Great. So do you remember that little Before the contest. They did a, workshop with Jim Lauderdale and whoever else was there, that year as part of the judging format or whatever. I remember asking a question of Jim, this was for me, that was the year 2017. And, I asked of the panel, what do you do when you're in a co-write and you don't love the work, you don't feel about it? And Jim, you know, oh, you know, well, I just really think the answer is uh, you have to be positive I don't know if he used. The improv reference, but this is a really common thing for co-writing. You know, Say, Yeah.
oh, that's a great idea. And if you don't love it, don't say anything. and be respectful of this person and the space. but meanwhile, you're still working.
You're thinking, and the job of everybody in the room is not only to write well, but sometimes to beat what you wrote right away. And if you don't love what's happening in the room, Wait for it and then come back to it later and say, Hey, you know that setup to the hook at the end there of the chorus.
what about this? And then nobody's feelings are hurt. You're not trying to prove that you're smarter. You're not trying to be the one that saves the day. You're just offering another idea. How about this? How about this? It's just, it's the how aboutm and that space tends to just be like safer.
And also sometimes on the flip side, I just finished a rewrite with a young artist in town who's great. And it's this band brother Elsie, they're so great. And the main writer is this guy named Brady. And we wrote the song we both loved and we're like, why does that chorus not quite land?
And we finished it day one, and then we both lived with it between that day and the date of our next session. deciding subconsciously whether something is worth revisiting, whether something was worth cutting, all the above. And then the very beginning of our, our last session, I told him I thought we should throw out the entire course of this song that we loved.
was called something else. The Melo is entirely different. And he was so down and we rewrote it and now we both super duper love it. But the point of bringing that up is that I actually did like the previous chorus a lot. He didn't like it as much as I did, which is a, common thing, There's always going to be a little bit of an imbalance of what someone thinks of something, but you should always be like down to clown, it's always worth the exercise to try something else. nine times outta 10, if you revisit something that you feel like isn't quite there, you're gonna be able to beat it.
Yeah.
you have to actually like enter that space again and be willing to try something new. It's just like producing. why is this element not working? Hit the mute button. Oh,
[00:33:22] Michaela: Well, and I, I think that's, I think that's also a testament to having the ability to check your ego and. Really be focused on serving the song or the music and not my ideas or my thing. We interviewed Rodney Crowell for this, and Rodney told us that he has some songs he's been working on for 30 years,
[00:33:45] Mary: Whoa.
[00:33:46] Michaela: and
[00:33:47] Mary: Why am I not surprised?
[00:33:48] Aaron: songs that have been cut and been released.
[00:33:51] Michaela: Shame on the Moon. Bob Seger big
[00:33:53] Aaron: hit. He's he goes back and rewrites verses still.
[00:33:56] Michaela: He's
[00:33:57] Mary: like, I think it's done that verse. man, he's such a great example of
[00:34:02] Michaela: yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:34:03] Mary: We should all try to be.
[00:34:05] Michaela: Yeah. Ever. But by the end of that conversation I was like, damn, Rodney, The song is his religion. everything starts and ends with the songs for him and it's incredible.
[00:34:15] Aaron: If people are interested in checking that out, that's episode 16 that aired a few weeks ago, so just go back and listen
[00:34:20] Mary: I haven't listened to that yet. I'm so excited. I'm a huge fan of his, yeah.
[00:34:24] Michaela: it's incredible. One thing I wanted to ask you about, because I think it really stands out about you, and I'll provide a little context. We've known each other a long time. The whole reason that we met is because you had moved to Nashville and we came through on tour. We were still living in New York
[00:34:39] Mary: Oh,
[00:34:40] Michaela: and you messaged me on Juan's social media something and said, Hey, I just moved to Nashville from New York.
used to see your name all the time out, at Rockwood or whatever. I now live here, but I used to live in New York and I'm coming to your show, would love to meet you. And we chatted and we exchanged numbers and you were so friendly and nice and I was just like, wow, that was so lovely.
And then when we moved to town several months later, I reached out and you were so welcoming and warm. We started writing together and through the years, we've written together a lot. We're close friends, we have a lot of close mutual friends. We've seen each other through a lot of heavy stuff. And we've navigated the ups and downs of this career.
don't think I have ever heard you wallow and complain
Or talk too much about how hard or unfair things can be in this business. you do, but I've never witnessed it. I've definitely talked to you about all these different challenges that we face, but you are, have always struck me as someone who is remarkably, not Pollyanna optimistic, but optimistic based in your own self-reliance and self-work.
And I've always admired that you're independent within the business as well. You do so much for yourself and you just are constantly working and. From the friend point of view seem like someone who's just yeah, it's hard, but it's hard for everybody. I'm so grateful for what I've got.
I'm gonna keep doing what I do cuz this is what I do, regardless of what's happening around me or who's validating me or anything. And is all to give you a big compliment that I find it really inspiring and admirable.
[00:36:26] Mary: me up.
[00:36:28] Michaela: But I also wanna know how do you do that?
[00:36:31] Mary: Oh my gosh. I mean I was raised by my eternally optimistic mother for one. She is also not Pollyanna, but she can't appear to be from an outward presentation perspective. I'm not sure how I do it really, because sometimes it is a very dark reality and there have been moments when I have completely lost faith and the ability for this thing to be a career now.
I mean, I think maybe the part that gets me through is. I literally just started saying this the other day, and I'll, for the YouTubers on the screen, I'll turn my camera. So over here are my guitars. Okay. So now I'm gonna put this back and show you what I said the other day to student, like a coaching adult situation student.
And the thing is you have a relationship with your work. looking at those guitars and sitting in this little home studio literally fills me up with
possibility related joy. And it isn't attached to the business, it isn't attached to my pocketbook and wishing that I had money to. Fill in the blank, X, Y, and Z because I've always had to figure out a way to conjure up money. But that relationship that you have with your work is yours and it is waiting for you all the time.
And it is patient. It's just like a relationship. You can screw it up, but it's gonna forgive you and ask you when you can have dinner again. that to me is life giving, that I know I can sit down with my guitar and with my voice and just like sing. And it doesn't have to be underscored by capitalism.
Who cares? I love the fact that I am able to call this my income now. My career now is the thing that does pay my bills. And I'm so grateful for that. It took me a long time to get here. And I, of course I have grapes about the way the music business works. I hate it. I hate how not being this, or this is the reason why you're not gonna get this, this, or this.
But I can't let that come between the thing that I am in love with the most, like you were talking about with Rodney. really do, existentially think I, I am here to be in relationship with songs and interpret what I see of the world through lyric and melody. And that is an invitation.
That is, that Recurrent and that I've, feel solace in. that to me completely outweighs the bullshit of the other side And if, you know, if someday I'm a Rainy sold out show at Nissan Stadium, then everyone's talking about it, then great. But if that doesn't, that doesn't happen, then that's great too.
[00:39:25] Michaela: I think when you can stay grounded in that of it starts and ends with this, all of that other stuff that we dream about, and especially because culturally, societally, we're all filled with these ideas that. Achieving and showing achievement and gaining is what the goal should always be.
It can be hard to remember, wait, no, this, experience, this gift that I get to have is where everything should start and stop.
[00:39:57] Mary: Yeah.
[00:39:58] Michaela: All the other stuff is our bonuses.
[00:40:00] Mary: Yeah. And the stuff that does remind you of the value of your work, those intimate conversations you have with fans at the merch table after a show, for example. Not the selling of the merch, but the joyous responses to something. really those connections with real people.
That's the stuff that keeps me going, but thank you for staying on those beautiful, nice things. I really appreciate that and I'm glad that, that is The impression that You have of me. I don't know if that's a weird thing to say, but I do think it's nice to hear that sometimes because you forget
[00:40:32] Aaron: You forget to zoom out.
[00:40:33] Mary: hey,
[00:40:34] Aaron: We inherently have a zoomed out view of what you're doing, And you're seeing every crack in the sidewalk and every little pebble that you're kicking and tripping on your, inevitably, sees that in their own career.
[00:40:45] Mary: Yeah. That's right. And I definitely have the narrative is on replay in my mind of, the stuff that I do have to combat, internally. But for sure, I do think. Encouraging people and, focusing on the things that you, can control and not letting the things that you can't control dictate your own sense of happiness.
You know? I think that's really important.
[00:41:04] Aaron: Yeah. Do you have cuz you mentioned combating burnout or, struggle with how things are at the beginning of our conversation, you know, obviously that makes it harder to show up for a right. harder to show up for doing what you're doing. Do you have specific things that you do to let off the pressure gauge I guess self-care is, the trendy word for all of that.
Do you have things that you do in particular?
[00:41:26] Mary: I do. I actually see my morning pages slash journaling as. Self-care, even though it's part of the work because it's a writer practice. I find that when I don't do my morning pages, there's always a sort of sense of crookedness about my serenity in a day.
[00:41:45] Aaron: I have not been on my practice of doing morning pages, but I, did for a long time, for many years. And I think that I heard Tim Ferris talk about it. Once you know, those were back in my days where I was like, I'm a man. Vulnerability is weakness and all that. And I heard him talk about morning pages and I'm like, oh wow, check that out.
This
[00:42:01] Mary: Wow.
[00:42:02] Aaron: bald and jacked and he does all this stuff. Um, That aside, he mentioned morning pages and he related it to, you wake up and you have your monkey brain and there's all the anxieties and the stresses and the to-do list and all of that. He related that to basically like a bullet ricochet around in your brain,
[00:42:19] Mary: Hmm
[00:42:20] Aaron: Just gonna keep doing that all day unless you kind of sit down and just let it out
[00:42:23] Mary: Also, the, that space that we give ourselves is also the place where I can let out my frustration sometimes with things. And it reminds me of a, I'm not even sure where I first heard it, but it might've been my partner. She's so good at helping me not obsess over unnecessary things.
But it's feelings are not facts, and you can put anything in your journal, you can be like ugh, why do I feel this? Ugh, this is terrible. Let me write it down. It's just like, allow it to sort of arrive in your thoughts and then just move right along. Bye. You might have a thought about something and.
For me, it's been important to realize that you don't have to internalize it, that you can just acknowledge it as a feeling and that it doesn't have to be like the truth of your entire life. I can sort of just take everything too seriously. Actually that reminds me, another piece of my own self-care is sort of, it's a little bit adjacent to asking for what you need, which for me is going to bed on time. I love going out, I love going to shows, but last night it was like, do, do, do, do, do. Who's going to the Legion? I was like, Nope, I'm going to bed. And that for me is definitely a part of self-care because. I knew that have a session starting in a couple days and I have still a lot of pre-production to do because it's been a little on the last minute side.
So getting the songs from like literally just yesterday we finalized the song list to the session's beginning in two days. It's like, okay, let's not say yes to things that you might have a big time at. But let's acknowledge that in order for you to show up at this, five day session a prepared and be ready in your body and mind to go in with a clean slate of creative readiness.
I'm gonna have to make good positive choices in the self-care arena in the next two days to get to that point. So Yeah. like saying no, I guess is probably a, piece that um, still learning how to do.
[00:44:23] Aaron: Yeah. and thinking about the future,
you,
[00:44:26] Mary: That's right.
[00:44:27] Aaron: Making decisions now based on, on the future, which is something I continue to learn.
Yeah. Like, and it can
[00:44:34] Mary: self will Thank you for, yeah.
[00:44:36] Aaron: saying no to going out you can rest is a really simple decision
And it's something that we talked about with Becca Man Carey, which is episode 13, where Becca and I both had the feeling that like, self-care is a sign of weakness.
You know, like, Oh, you're being weak and oh, it can't be that easy. But it really is just that easy.
what's the saying?
If it's not a hell yes, then it's a no,
[00:44:57] Mary: that's good. I've never heard that before. That's really good.
[00:44:59] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:45:01] Michaela: I have a kind of big last question.
[00:45:05] Mary: Big last
[00:45:06] Aaron: I'm surprised
[00:45:07] Mary: Okay. All right.
[00:45:08] Aaron: this, This is the Michaela Ann move right here.
[00:45:10] Mary: Oh my gosh. Classic McKayla.
[00:45:13] Michaela: well from doing these, I've been learning that I'm the queen of three-tiered questions. I'm like, a blah, blah, blah, and B and third.
I'm like, oh my God, our poor guests like Erin's always quietly, like
[00:45:27] Mary: I love it. You're like the F folk. Americana, Brene Brown. That's great. That's great. Yeah.
[00:45:33] Michaela: Okay. My big question because I am so interested in how. Our personal lives are big experiences feed our creativity or stall our creativity. How being aligned in our personal emotional life determines so much of our creative work. You, the last several years have had a big life upheaval,
And you told me that no.
Topics are off
[00:45:59] Mary: Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did. I did. Yeah.
[00:46:02] Michaela: so your marriage to a man ended after 10 plus years. You came out and this maybe we could say for a different conversation, but you and I recently had a little conversation about terminology
Of, you deciding, I've always thought I'm bi, but am I gay? Like you're, you're in a relationship with a woman and. obviously one marriage ending, starting a new relationship coming out with a different sexuality than your parents and family members might be comfortable with a deeply ingrained southern religious background. So much has been happening.
[00:46:40] Mary: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:41] Michaela: What has that been like Has your creativity helped you make sense of things?
Navigate, heal? Was it impacted where it was hard to go there through any different period of time? And here's my third question now as a friend, my interpretation that it feels like you're in a more settled place, aligned with really who you are. Do you find that there's a new level of access and ability to create?
Do you remember those
[00:47:13] Mary: three tiers?
So the third tier is access. The second tier is about
[00:47:19] Aaron: your creativity
[00:47:20] Mary: stalling. How did the creativity help?
me through it? And the first one was about being stalled or stymied by it. Is that
[00:47:26] Michaela: I guess the first two were did your creativity help you make sense and navigate and process? Second one was, was it negatively impact? Did you feelable to create through that? And now that it feels like you're in a bit more, less tumultuous
[00:47:43] Mary: the access
[00:47:44] Michaela: and more aligned
[00:47:45] Mary: readily available?
[00:47:46] Michaela: yeah.
[00:47:46] Mary: So that's a beautiful question. It's a beautiful three part question. Yeah.
I think, I'll say I have never had a more difficult life experience. I have no, previous examples of having to work through such hardship in my creativity.
And it was absolutely a friend to me. Maybe that's why I mentioned what I said before about the relationship being there for you. I mean, I definitely, needed to be writing during that time and a lot of those songs I still haven't finished. Some of those songs I recorded for my last record and then took them off because they were too much.
I might have needed to write a song for my own sense of processing and with all the things. But I don't, in the sense of how being brutally honest is not always the kindest, I definitely in the sort of curation of song selection and then ultimately the final track list.
I really tried to remove myself from the equation as much as possible and remember which of the songs would maybe have the most impact on an audience. One of the songs is called, on the New record, is called Love Each Other. And I swear that song was probably partially instrumental in repairing some of my family relationships, which has been paramount and so relieving because my parents, they had a long journey toward this moment, but they are now in a much more loving.
Place they are in a fully loving place. Not fully accepting, but I accept their love we are back in that space of the same kind of relationship I had with my parents before I came out to them. has been huge. So
[00:49:36] Aaron: Just for clarity, you said that song was paramount in repairing that. do you mean in the sense that like your parents heard the song and guys were able to come to an understanding or writing the song and creating the song was major for you and how
[00:49:48] Mary: both, but more so the former when I played that song for them, I think the first time it was really hard. narratively, some of the aspects are true and some of it is writing and it's not exactly historically accurate, but that's fine because I believe that's fine for all of us to do.
But the sort of overall thought yes, we're gonna disagree about things, but can we not just love each other? I was raised in a family that we were so close and so there for each other and it wasn't until the last, even before I came out you know, the last 10 or so years when, you know, you might realize how conservative your family is as opposed to how liberal you are or vice versa.
There's a lot of change there. And watching those relationships Suffer in ways that are not things that you ever think are gonna happen to you, like I never thought that the rug of my family would be pulled out from under my feet. And it? was fully for two and a half years, and then a shift started and now two years since then, we're in a much better place now. But for sure the catharsis, has been inclusive of the fact that I have had to spend time working through my thoughts and feelings about things through songs and then sharing those with my family, and my parents.
Are not the worst example of this situation. Might I add? I did wanna say, this is a funny example. There's a song on the record called Same Kid and it's a song about a relationship between siblings and there are many verses. It's that Rodney thing we were talking about before. There are many verses of that song that I wrote because I had to, and then they didn't end up making the, final cut because I was so angry at the time that things had become as hard as they were and.
I just was like, and I have a song that I haven't finished yet from that time called Bad Mood. It's like, don't leave me alone. You know, I'm in a bad mood. There's a lot I think that has to happen. And to get back to part of your question, I wouldn't say
the stalling was really a true stall. I would say during that period. It was just, everything was new. I would cry like so much during rights with myself and with other people, I mean, I'm a crier. I'm fine with crying. I love crying. but that particular kind of writing where, I mean, it really felt like I couldn't zoom out. Maybe that's part of it, actually, this is a nice realization, is that I couldn't zoom out because I was so in my grief. I was so stuck in my own grief and sense of change sort of personal upheaval.
Well, meanwhile, my life is, becoming way better, way more joyful, way more sound, in my relationship with my partner. And so there was just this sort of constant juxtaposition that was a lot to deal with. And I did see my, writing as a necessary piece, a necessary tool. But it was just very different during that time because I couldn't stop seeing myself in the song, which is like not always my goal.
My goal is to be like, okay, this is my feeling, but what is the zoomed out approach? And so now let's see. I'm, I'm about to get to the access answer, but did I cover the, what was the second question again?
I think you
[00:53:23] Michaela: covered both. It was,
[00:53:23] Aaron: we definitely covered it. how your creativity helped you through the process,
and if it stalled.
[00:53:28] Mary: the access piece, I would say for sure, as things have settled, and I guess because I have more practice now at, removing my own personal perspective from a circumstance in the context of writing. I'm able to take things less seriously because of the experience that I had.
Inevitably your sense of belief in the world and in people changes. And I do still believe in possibility and growth and evolution of, relationships. But I also am, I would say, more focused on trying to manage my expectations in those arenas than I am in terms of believing everything's gonna be okay. Mm-hmm. in those moments where I try to access my best writer self, yes, it is better. That's my succinct answer to the question. And I don't know if it's because of my willingness or if it's just a sort of natural landing point for a person who goes through that kind of thing. Where you're just like you give less ifs, if there's a
lot
[00:54:37] Michaela: say it.
[00:54:38] Mary: but there are children.
[00:54:40] Michaela: I mean, We've got a two year old and we, we curse all the time.
[00:54:44] Mary: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think caring less about whatever it Mm-hmm. It's gonna help in those rooms because, I have spent my whole life caring so much about everything, and I still care very deeply about a lot of things. But if I can in some iterations, some moments, just be less, controlling, in some cases, less concerned with the outcome, less concerned with offending people, ironically, since I won't say the F word on uh, your podcast. I think my best self and my best ideas and my best writing can come through when I, can push all that crap aside. And because I.
did go through what I went through. I think the tools that I have now to sort of push that crap aside are in fact more readily available.
[00:55:36] Michaela: Yeah. you have more dimensions and less F's given about what people think of those
[00:55:42] Mary: dimensions.
it, Mikayla. You can say it.
[00:55:48] Aaron: That's such a beautiful way to wrap up this conversation. Thank you for sharing that with us, and
this is one of the, heavier conversations on actually writing and creating that
[00:55:59] Michaela: we have. Yeah, that's true.
[00:56:00] Aaron: And it's on the process. I've learned a lot. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us.
[00:56:05] Mary: you for having me. It's always a pleasure to hang with y'all and talk about these things, and I just love the podcast. When it first launched, I was like didn't you start with five
at
[00:56:15] Aaron: yeah. Overachiever.
[00:56:17] Mary: you spot it.
You got it. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Thank y'all so much. It's really great to see you.