Mary Chapin Carpenter is an 18x Grammy nominated, 5x Grammy winning, 6x platinum-selling singer-songwriter with over 16 albums and decades of touring so far in her career. We talk with Mary Chapin about her songwriting process, including her need for solitude and her practice of "song walking," we talk about how she still faces rejection even with all of her accolades and commercial success, how common and easy it is to personalize mistreatment from people in power (and how to combat that), and much more on this very candid final episode of Season 1.
Mary Chapin Carpenter is an 18x Grammy nominated, 5x Grammy winning, 6x platinum-selling singer-songwriter with over 16 albums and decades of touring so far in her career. We talk with Mary Chapin about her songwriting process, including her need for solitude and her practice of "song walking," we talk about how she still faces rejection even with all of her accolades and commercial success, how common and easy it is to personalize mistreatment from people in power (and how to combat that), and much more on this very candid final episode of Season 1.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to the final episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast for 2023. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:05] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne, and I cannot believe that we're coming to the end of our first year and we have done 46 episodes. Some of you have listened to all 46 episodes, and that is impressive.
Thank you so much. If this is your first time, thank you as well for checking us out.
[00:00:24] Aaron: yeah. If you've listened to the last few episodes, you might've heard that we're going to take a little break. We're going to take some of our own medicine and we're going to focus on some other creative projects. And we will be back with new episodes every week, starting March 1st of 2024. So in the meantime, if you have a favorite episode, it might be this one.
Maybe it's one from earlier in the year. And you have a friend doesn't know what this show is all about. Maybe you could share it with them, post it on social media. Talk about it in the van, whatever you can do. It's the best way for us to get in front of more listeners, and that's the best way for us to continue to do this every week and bring you new guests and new ideas.
So we'd really appreciate that.
[00:00:59] Michaela: And we're not your typical music promo show. We are not music journalists. We are artists ourselves, and we like to think of these as conversations rather than interviews where we talk to artists and bands that we love and respect. about how they stay healthy, how they stay connected to the actual work of writing songs and making music and how they've learned to develop tools and routines that have been helpful to stay inspired, creative and sane while building a career around their art.
[00:01:30] Aaron: And we've done that by deciding that we're going to focus on what is within our control, because as we all know, there's so much in this business that is outside of our control. And so as Michaela said, that's our habits, our mindsets. And we've distilled that down to a question that we don't directly ask.
But it's core of everything we ask in this show. And that is what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we get to ask that question of 18 time Grammy nominee, five time Grammy winner, quadruple platinum, singer, songwriter, artist, amazing person, Mary Chapin Carpenter.
[00:02:03] Michaela: it's wild to think this time last year dreaming up this podcast I would never have guessed that we'd be ending it with a conversation with Mary Chapin Carpenter and that she is so wildly successful on the outside, but through this conversation, we really learned so much of that is because of how she lives her life on the inside.
what a beautiful testament of just. all those outside accolades, they're not the answer. so much is about sustaining and nurturing and feeding that relationship that she has with the actual work of writing songs.
[00:02:38] Aaron: one thread that I heard through this entire conversation was that she's really grounded in the process of writing songs, the process of experiencing her career as she goes, about an hour after we finished recording the episode, we got an email from Mary Chapin herself with little postscript and follow up thoughts our conversation here.
[00:02:57] Michaela: So at the end of the episode, when we say goodbye, stay tuned because we will be back and we'll be reading an email from Mary Chapin Carpenter in her own words.
[00:03:06] Aaron: and so for the final time in 2023, without further ado, here's our conversation with Mary Chapin Carpenter.
[00:03:11] Mary: It's so nice to meet you both.
[00:03:13] Michaela: You too.
[00:03:14] Aaron: Thank you for carving out some time to sit down with us.
[00:03:16] Mary: Oh, happy to do it. Happy to be here.
[00:03:18] Michaela: We're so excited I feel like I have to center myself a little bit before we start. But We've been having these conversations for now, hasn't even been a year and the feedback we just constantly get is, how needed this feels in the music community and the industry is so it's always been changing, but it feels especially fraught.
So to have. If someone of your experience and length of time and caliber and also with such a very strong poignant just what I interpret as mission and kind of ethos and belief system that you exude, I'm just really excited. So thank you.
[00:03:57] Mary: I have a little experience in, podcasting. a couple of years ago, during the pandemic, I did three episodes to ostensibly, present a new record, but also just be in conversation. It's a lot of work. It's so much work and preparation and I really bow down to you both because I mean, you're doing it once a week and you've been doing it, as you said, for nearly a year and the amount of work that I know you're doing to pull this off is extraordinary.
So as part of the music community, I commend you truly. you're providing something that it doesn't matter where you are in the, Cycle of music career slash life, whatever. I think what you're presenting to people is really helpful and wonderful. So I'm just really happy to be here.
Thank you for asking me to join you.
[00:04:45] Michaela: Thank you. Yeah we went out last night for a Christmas holiday party show and we don't go out that much anymore. And every time we go out, people tell us about, how important the podcast feels and it feels so different to hear that versus hearing how much someone loves your record or something because it feels like it's not about us.
And also like. this is a crazy amount of work, but driven because we get to have incredible conversations like with people like you and it's felt life changing this year it's been so inspiring
[00:05:15] Mary: I believe it.
kudos to both of you.
[00:05:17] Michaela: Thank you. Thank
[00:05:18] Aaron: you.
[00:05:18] Mary: Really.
[00:05:19] Aaron: So, Where are you today? Are you at home?
[00:05:22] Mary: I'm at home. I live on a,beautiful piece of land in northern Virginia. And I'm about two hours west of D. C. I call it the farm. It was a working farm, before I moved here. it's just a beautiful place of peace and, serenity. And creativity, I'd like to think.
I always think of the beautiful, Carl Sandburg, talked about when he moved to his final home in uh, North Carolina and it was a, farm and he spoke about the creative hush that he experienced there. And I always thought that was a beautiful way to describe what I feel when I'm here.
[00:05:59] Michaela: Yeah. Do you feel like solitude is essential for your creativity?
[00:06:04] Mary: a really good question. I think it's a big part of it. Absolutely. I don't know if it's solitude so much as just a sense of peace. There can be people here, but generally, it's just me and my dog and my cat and the occasional visitor. And even before I lived here, though, I always needed a space, a room of her own, that was just my place to sit and play and write and scribble and, blather on about things.
[00:06:32] Aaron: Yeah we, have lived together for a long time and realized that early on. We started dating in New York City and lived in a, a series of tiny one bedroom apartments. And then when we moved to Nashville, it became clear early on that when we had our own spaces to go and shut the door.
It was monumental. And now we're sitting in our studio, which is completely separate from our house, we're about 40 feet behind our house. So it's, a place you can go and shut the door and do what you need.
[00:06:59] Mary: Absolutely. I think back to when I, I was married years ago and I always found it to be a really hard thing to do I didn't really have a, dedicated space. So I would just either, tell my former spouse to, or, or just try to figure out what am I going to get some space, some time by myself.
So I think that's probably a big thing for many people and, and a hard thing when you don't necessarily have the wherewithal to carve out that physical space.
[00:07:29] Aaron: In my experience, into the house and Michaela will be singing a song that she's working on. she's not immediately in the room that I walk into, but she's down the hall and I can hear her. As soon as she knows that I'm in the house, I stop. She stops. Yep.
[00:07:40] Michaela: I don't like it.
[00:07:41] Mary: Yeah. understand. I totally understand.
[00:07:44] Michaela: And we've been together 16 years and we're together, but I'm like, I do not want anybody to hear me in process.
[00:07:50] Mary: just knowing that you feel that way, it's gonna make you feel self conscious, and then it's going to affect what comes out. I think there's something to be said for just being completely uninhibited, and when you know that someone is within earshot, that inhibition is compromised somehow.
[00:08:06] Michaela: yeah. How much is Because I, you know, I follow you on Instagram, so I see how naturally beautiful your home is. And how much does the outside part of your home and nature play a role in your creativity?
[00:08:18] Mary: I think we all know that being in nature, there's studies and there's, long essays about this and have been for years and years. But the sense of what beauty and being in nature, what it brings you, what it can affect. I talk about this a lot when I'm playing for people and just talking about process and that sort of thing.
And I like to do what I call song walking, which is the idea that, I like to sit at my kitchen table right behind me and write when I, feel tired or I hit place in what I'm working on where I'm just stuck. I just know that the right thing to do is just to push back from the table and grab the dog and just go out and start walking.
And I like to just riff out loud whatever it is I'm working on.
And more often than not, by the time I start heading for home. I've figured out where I'm going to go lyrically with what I'm working on, and clears your head, but at the same time it, helps you just start, when you're riffing out loud you're, writing too.
And I can't tell you how many songs I've finished doing that.
[00:09:22] Michaela: That's incredible.
[00:09:23] Mary: There's something to it, walking, thinking, riffing, whatever.
[00:09:27] Michaela: How often are you writing? do you have a daily practice or is it just whenever you feel like it?
[00:09:32] Mary: It's a little of both. do feel that you know, like many people have said songwriting is almost like exercising a muscle,
I speak only for myself, but if I go too long without just sitting down facing the page, I it's a lot harder to get back to it.
well one thing I will say, a long time ago
I realized that I didn't want to force myself to feel like I had to write on the road and let's face it, talk about needing solitude or whatever whether you're. driving yourself in a car or whatever it is.
It can be really hard to be in that headspace where you can create. So I just stopped forcing myself to feel like I had to be able to write anywhere, anytime, that sort of thing. I just wait until I'm home. But, having said that, there's lots of times when you're gone for months, basically. And I just.
Let myself not feel pressure. when I get home, I'm back at it at least a little part of every day. It also makes me happy. It's like I'm connecting with something that's a huge part of me. And, songwriting for me has never just been about getting a result.
It's about How songwriting or the creative process helps me in my life. Helps me feel like I'm untangling some things or I'm listening better to myself. Or I'm figuring something out. Not to mention how songwriting can help you just express sorrow, grief, loss, pain, happiness, all those things. . It's like a form of self therapy.
If
[00:11:05] Michaela: Oh, a hundred percent.
[00:11:07] Mary: yeah.
[00:11:07] Michaela: I always feel like there's multiple layers when you're a professional as well of any pressure you feel of like to keep going because that's how you keep your career going. I've talked about it many times on this podcast. the last few years.
I went the longest I've ever gone without writing a full song.
[00:11:23] Mary: Mm-Hmm.
[00:11:23] Michaela: I think it was probably like two years. I had. I had a baby and my mom had a stroke when I was five months pregnant, so a lot of very challenging life changes.
[00:11:34] Mary: Yes.
[00:11:34] Michaela: And I felt very panicked because I thought, oh, am I done? Do I have to figure out a new career path now?
[00:11:42] Mary: did it scare you when you would think about that? Yeah.
[00:11:44] Michaela: Yeah, it scared me, and Aaron's nodding, because he would hear about it constantly. I took the ride as well. But even more than that, it was like, identity stuff like, who am I if I'm not a songwriter? I also coach songwriting, and so am I, like, who am I to teach if I'm not doing it myself?
But the biggest thing I've realized now, that I'm past that and now I've written, you know, like 25 songs in the past year and very thankful for that.
[00:12:10] Mary: right on.
[00:12:11] Michaela: yeah it taught me a few different things. One, there was this layer of grief like I was panicked, but I was also just deeply sad because I couldn't connect to that source.
I couldn't synthesize all that was going on in my life. And, so I was missing. That experience and that release and that relief and I would sit and try and it wasn't enjoyable and I just like, so I was grieving that.
[00:12:37] Michaela: But then I've also learned that You really have to give yourself the time, that there's so much more to life than just synthesizing what's happening in life all the time, as essential as creating feels to me.
Sometimes you have to let all that's happening in your life just happen.
[00:12:59] Mary: And, just stating the obvious, using, my kitchen table as my spot, it's like you know what's going on when you come downstairs and you stare at the kitchen table and you walk right past it
Yeah.
I don't like, I'm not looking over there, I'm not going over there, kind of thing.
what you've just described, Michaela, just the idea that, you're grieving something that's a really big part of you. so there's those times when it's just not, for whatever reason, accessible to us. Or we don't have the time, or life is too crazy, or whatever. And there's the other times when you're just trying not to look at it.
And, And remind yourself, oh shit, I have not sat down and worked. It's both those things, right? It's, just trying to find the balance in anything in our lives.
[00:13:41] Aaron: Yeah. And being gentle with yourself
[00:13:43] Mary: Yes.
[00:13:44] Aaron: it's, such fertile ground for shame,
[00:13:47] Mary: It sure is. And what you were saying also about identity, there was a couple of years where I had a serious illness and it was a shit show I couldn't tour, couldn't work, wasn't writing and I not to be overly dramatic, but I just didn't know what the future was going to hold in terms of being able to get back to what I thought I was, who I thought I was, what I thought I was doing.
that period of time where for the first time, I think I really understood how much my sense of purpose. And meaning in life and identity was so tied up in music and creativity and not knowing for a period of time if I was ever going to get back to that. Boy, was so depressed and it was such a hard time and happily.
Obviously, I got back to it. But again, I'll never forget that period of time where I just felt so adrift you know, we talk about not making our jobs, our identity and not making our, work, the center of our lives that it has to be broader and wider and there has to be more to it than that, but let's face it when we've been doing this as long as we've been doing it.
And it is sort of our primary way of acknowledging ourselves as we walk through this world. It can really shake you up when it's taken away from you or it's hard to see it, anyway, just relate to what you were saying.
[00:15:04] Michaela: that's what's so challenging and, one of the Inspirations for this podcast of the other 22 hours yes We're whole humans and how to honor that so that you can continue to create but when creativity and creating songs yes, we all hope or do get paid for it as our work, but It's also just like a vital part of who we are so it's different than if I'm I don't know, a carpenter or something.
I don't know if maybe a carpenter feels, you know, ask your dad if he feels like being a carpenter is like so essential. But I feel like musicians feel like this is like breathing. This is who I am. And then it gets so complicated when you bring in money and outside validation and opportunity and work and all these things.
[00:15:54] Mary: I mean, The one thing I feel like I, know about myself. And the things we think we know about ourselves can change day to day. But, I really, hold this very dear. And that is if I had never been fortunate enough to have this so called career, I still would have always played music, written songs.
Figured things out by trying to be creative. I know this to be true. the career and all the things that go with that and the things that are hard about that's given, we know that. But for myself, I know that if it had never gone this way, I'd still be, playing music.
That's the thing I hold on to no matter what.
[00:16:30] Aaron: I'm wondering first, that's so beautifully said. And you had shared this illness you had this experience you had. now that you're on the other side of it, could you share some about how that changed things for you? Your creativity, your process or if it didn't if you just had gratitude to be back
[00:16:46] Mary: don't think it changed how I do what I do. It just made me more grateful for it. it didn't change how I write before I got sick. I was always happy when I was able to finish a song, but I'm still really happy when I finish a song now,
So it didn't change the process.
It just, really what it did affect in just every way in my life, just gratitude for
just all the things, the quotidian elements of our days.
[00:17:11] Michaela: Yeah. How has career ambition and success played a role in your creativity? I mean, obviously have, I've known of you for a long time, but when I was like really looking at your credits of like 18 Grammy nominations, five Grammys, like multiple records that are quadruple like it's astronomical success. From the outside, I've never had success like that, so from the outside, I would think that can be such an emotional roller even in the small little realms, artists are sensitive, I feel so sensitive to like something good happening.
I'm so excited. And then the comedown is like a sugar crash you know, and then rejection is so painful. And
[00:17:51] Mary: Oh, yes.
[00:17:52] Michaela: when All of that's heightened. What did that do to you, if anything?
[00:17:56] Mary: The first thing I want to say is that
I still get rejected and I still feel marginalized and like, those things don't go away. I Point in my life,
the wisdom of growing older the best part of it is just learning not to care so much about things and, Just not chasing the charts and those sort of music biz things.
the most important thing to me is pleasing my inner self of, quality control HQ, you know, just feeling like this is a song that I'm proud of. This is a tour I'm proud of. These people that I'm working with, I'm deeply moved and grateful to, just all those things, but all the hard things, as you described, rejection, feeling like you should be farther along than you are, whatever it is.
those things are always a part of life, right? you just have to not let them get in your way. But I have been doing this a long time, which kind of freaks me out. I can't believe it actually, but I still love what I do.
And I still am grateful when I have moments of clarity, well, What it is actually is like when you do feel rejected and you feel like, oh, I wish I'd been invited to do that, or,
you know, Whatever it is. It's being able to sit back and say, no one gets everything they want in life.
No one, and I don't care who you are, no one does. it's. the cliche, but all how you deal with it. And
When things are tough, I think it's, a natural thing to just try to take stock and just say, this is tough. But on the other hand, I have this to look forward to and that to be proud of.
And I trust myself, I trust my instincts and I trust my. Abilities and I trust the universe, I really do.
[00:19:48] Aaron: it's something that we, noticed in our guests that we've spoken to that have, navigated a career based on their art for measuring it in decades versus in years. Is that with that longevity comes a return to. No matter the ups or the downs, what matters?
Here is the art that I'm making.
[00:20:07] Mary: Absolutely. You know, I was thinking earlier, though, If I can put it this way, the service that you all are providing for
performers, artists, songwriters, wherever they are in their arc of creativity in life. when I was starting out, there was no such thing as social media. There certainly was no such thing as cell phones. you know, every once in a while I'll think, I wonder how different life might have been if I'd had those sort of tools in my toolbox when I was starting out, what I started thinking about though was tipping it over and thinking the disservice that those tools do
it's like you turn your phone on, look at Instagram or whatever, your algorithm is just filled with, Taylor Swift errors tours videos or something, cause you looked at one people are smarter than this, but we we all get sucked into things.
The problem is, is that some young, hardworking, beautiful soul wants to be a songwriter. But it's as if, and I have heard some artists say this, crazy, but it's almost like they say, If I can't have that level of success, then I don't want it, or I'm not going to try for but that's crazy, right?
It's just crazy, and yet, that's what people think sometimes now, you can't have that kind of success, then why bother?
Yeah,
[00:21:18] Aaron: want to shake them and tell them if that is your approach, you're never going to have that even if you do get to a level where your tour grosses a billion dollars, you're still going to feel like you're lacking because that carrot is still on a stick that is, you know, attached to your back
[00:21:33] Mary: It's crazy.
[00:21:34] Michaela: But the thing that talk about a lot is that I see as their disservice is the constant measurement
[00:21:41] Mary: Yes.
[00:21:42] Michaela: we translate it to value. And so we and it happens so quickly and subconsciously that it's, you know, I'll go through this and then be like well, I should be like, smarter or stronger.
And then I'm like, wait a second. This is like what this technology is actually built to do to us and to our minds and keep us addicted.
[00:22:02] Mary: it's all those things, as you say. And yet, when I was saying, I wonder what life would have been like when I was starting out, if I'd had these tools, what I think they do provide us is that has enhanced our ability to have a DIY career.
When I was starting out, You hoped and prayed that the local, town that you were going to, play that night would do a write up in the local newspaper about you and that the radio station would invite you to come in and sit down and talk
On their morning show or whatever it was. It's like social media has obviously allowed us to bypass those gatekeepers.
For that, I think it's invaluable. And, so much about the music business has changed since I started but I think to be able to do it yourself, whether it's making a record on your laptop in your bedroom, or, you know, whatever it is, we all know that careers can happen from those things now.
at any rate, it's the blessing and the curse.
[00:22:56] Michaela: Totally, and I feel like we all also see, even though there's so much ability for us to have do it yourself careers, some of us have embraced it even more than others of look at the freedom I have. And then some of us, depending on what time in your career, still put that, oh, but I need the validation of the machine, industry, the labels.
[00:23:20] Mary: I've heard a number of artists say, I just, want one more label deal, I want to say, why? time's a wasting, you know. just leave it behind. we all adjust in our own good time.
[00:23:33] Michaela: I very vividly remember being in my early 20s and literally saying out loud, I would just give anything to have label or booking agent to complain about. I remember
[00:23:45] Mary: understand what you're saying. Yeah, yeah,
[00:23:47] Michaela: Now I'm like, cool. I got that.
[00:23:49] Mary: yeah, Yeah.
[00:23:51] Michaela: anyone from Yaprox listening? I'm not talking about you. Former booking agents. You know who you are.
[00:23:57] Mary: and I've been doing this a very long time and I'm so grateful that I'm still doing it. That's the other thing. can tell you that every day I wake up and I go, holy cow, I get to do this still, but what I was going to say is that I say this to give hope to people.
It's only been in the last few years that, the team that we put together to help us do what we do, like you say, I wish I had a booking agent that I could just bitch about, you know, I've had a few of those, I've had a few, but now after doing this for how many years, 40 years practically It's only now that I have the most wonderful team. In other words, it took me this long,
at one time I would have like a really,the manager wasn't working out, or the booking agent wasn't working out, or the publicist wasn't working out, you know, one thing here, one thing there, whatever, but it's only in the last few years that I, can honestly say I have the most extraordinary group of people supporting me and working with me.
in other words, it can take a long time to put that foundation together. And so I would say to anyone, don't lose hope. If one thing isn't working, but something else is. Down the road, it might come together. Just don't give up. That's what I'm trying to say.
[00:25:10] Michaela: Yeah. I was texting with do you know Steve Pultz?
[00:25:13] Mary: don't.
[00:25:14] Michaela: I think he actually is on the same management company as you. you should learn about Steve Pultz. He's incredible. his main like songwriting, credit is that he wrote Were Meant for Me with Jewel and he used to work And most of that record with
[00:25:26] Mary: Oh, got it.
[00:25:27] Michaela: But he's had a, a long, great solo career. Anyways, we were, texting the other day about business stuff and agents and management and all that stuff. And he said like a very similar thing to you of I finally have all people that are awesome at the tender age of 63, finally.
Yeah.
[00:25:45] Mary: I mean, I went
Not going to name names, years ago, I was working with a manager who didn't return my call for an entire year.
Oh. God.
Oh yeah. the way I look at it now is, it taught me a lot, taught me a lot about myself, taught me a lot about the manager, obviously.
after three weeks, I wish I had just said this is not working. But as we all can hopefully understand,
you know, You just keep thinking, oh, need to work harder.
It's something that's wrong with me.
Yes.
Mm hmm.
you know, we take the blame. Now, I look back on it and I go, no, that was mismanagement. That was a terrible mistake to stay with that person for that long. But again, these are the things we learn.
stories,
[00:26:28] Michaela: I'm sure. We just, Had Gretchen Peters on
[00:26:32] Mary: she's still great.
[00:26:33] Michaela: She said, that this industry can keep us in a position of please Can I have please can I have an agent? Please? Can I have it? You know And I've been learning that so much in the last several years of like how many concessions you make for people to mistreat you because you want them To give you something that you want.
So you think oh, it's my fault went through this the last year with bad experience with a very powerful booking agent and The whole time I kept thinking or I've gone a whole year. We're kind of recovering from it At first it was well if I was better If I was more undeniably talented, if I was more successful, if sold more tickets, I wouldn't have been treated this way.
No.
[00:27:17] Mary: Oh,
[00:27:18] Michaela: Cause then I talk about it now and I hear so many stories of people who, in my opinion, are undeniably talented and have tons of record sales. And the reality is that people who mistreat people, they do that, regardless of what the person on the receiving end has, and this industry, like many industries, it makes concessions where we think it's okay to not be kind all in the name of business or different power dynamics.
I think about this all the time of like, it's not personal, it's business. I'm like, who decided that within these parameters, it meant that you should be allowed to be a shitty human. Like, why is that okay in the name of business?
[00:27:59] Mary: Yeah. Exactly. you know, you can't help but compare it to the example I gave you, it's like artist and manager, but it's a relationship like anything else. but if I'd been in a relationship, I think about, but you know, you know, what I'm trying to say, I'm trying to
And they hadn't called me back I guess we're going to break up after a few weeks, but again, you just keep thinking, it's my fault. I can fix this. I can do better, it was around a time again, I justifying all these things, you just think, oh it's, just sort of a, yeah.
Blip on the screen and it'll work itself out. And then it doesn't. And then you just keep thinking, I'm so afraid I'm getting kicked to the curb. And then what will happen to me, whatever. And then you reach a point where you just say, I can't do this anymore. I don't care what the consequences are.
I need to reclaim my self respect and
[00:28:47] Michaela: Can I ask, what kind of like time in your career was this? Was this early? Was this like, midst of heights? Was this later? Like
[00:28:57] Mary: God, I don't know how to describe it to you. it was like in the early two thousands. Oh, I just haven't thought about that in a long time, but.
I think about it now and I just, Oh, it's like part of me wants to hang my head in shame For letting it go on so long. And then the other part of me just wants to tell you about it as an example of, boy, there's a lot of shitty people out there,
[00:29:18] Michaela: thank you for sharing that because I, can hear that of liketrying to make sense of also like, why did I let this happen? But to me, it's also a testament which I think is an important thing to talk about is that no matter where you're at in your career. and again, these are using levels with outside metrics of how you're perceived or selling or whatever.
You're always like right at the edge before or after, like continually feeling like you're not in a position of power as the artist.
[00:29:47] Mary: Yes.
you forget that they work for you
[00:29:49] Michaela: exactly, no matter how many Grammys you've won, if then you're on the backside of, I won those Grammys, but am I going to win more Grammys? Like, It just is such a testament of like, where and how do you feel in the position of power and empowered to know that you're the one that's running the ship, that there's countless stories like this that Again, it goes back to the please can I have.
No matter what you've gained, or built as a public professional artist, there's still always that position.
[00:30:22] Mary: exactly. I just think it's my personality. just the way I am. But when something hasn't gone right, it's hard for me to tell the person in charge in that realm, this isn't going right for me because I don't want to criticize that person
and it's all about grace notes and figuring out a way to say it.
When you're unhappy about something in a way that hopefully they will understand that you're not criticizing them per se, but you're just trying to figure out a better way to do things. But it's just the way I am. I just don't know how to do that very easily.
And so I'm always afraid of making a mess.
It's just hard. And even though, again, if it was me listening to one of my artists, friends, telling me what I had just shared with you all, I would just be like stomping around saying, you cannot let that person treat you like that.
That's bullshit. Again, I was not aware of your podcast until, this algorithm pushed it to me, and it was, Aaron, Ray, and Caroline, and Kelsey, and you, Michaela, right? Your,
Group text, And, that resonated so deeply with me.
Just the idea that you have these people who. Are in your life who completely understand the life you lead because they lead the same kind of life and that you can bounce things off of each other. I wish I'd had that at that time. I think that would have made a huge difference when the manager wasn't calling me back for a year.
I think if I'd had a group text like that, somebody or everyone would have stood up and given me a call. and the courage to deal with it a lot sooner than I did, but we do the best we can with what we have. But anyway, that group text I think is a, beautiful thing. And, that's what first connected me to what you all are doing.
So,
[00:32:09] Aaron: you know, as an outside of observer of that group, it's a pretty amazing thing. We're actually just talking about the power in groups and something that we used to say all the time on this podcast but mold grows in darkness. So, When you take shame and you share it in a group and just somebody raising their hand yes, I hear you.
it can eradicate that shame so quickly and it can be so grounding and so empowering to be like, yeah, no this, is weird, right? It isn't just me,
[00:32:33] Mary: Absolutely. you know, it would be so interesting to see, how tough Kelly Clarkson's management or booking agent or Taylor's, you know, whatever, everybody's had to adjust and make changes in their careers and their lives and stuff.
But we look at those artists and we go, they just have the tiger by the tail, you know, but there's no doubt that they have had to deal with things too,
[00:32:54] Michaela: Yeah, and I think that the group text support I feel so grateful to have that. And The four of us are so conscientious also of like what we talk about of Oh, we don't want to feel like sad or envious, that we're like a click or something. more we want to like share what the value is in trying to nurture that. And that's essentially what we're trying to nurture with. The other 22 hours of not just building a podcast that has listeners, but to build a community around it where people can then, you know Be listening. Oh my god, Mary Chabin Carpenter had a manager that Wasn't answering her and like that's kind of what I'm going through and that's like the kind of exchange that I feel like We really need and it is so easy to think that we are unique in our situations and our experiences and just like you said and blame ourselves, no matter how many of these conversations I have, I still find so much comfort in going back and listening to, Rodney Crowell we had a conversation with him and him sharing how insecure he felt about something, or how many people that you admire that also felt rejected, or felt like failures, and you're like, oh, okay, so 18 Grammy nominations doesn't cure you of that?
[00:34:10] Mary: Like, Not. And they also don't, you still have bad managers out there,
[00:34:16] Michaela: the more quote unquote success you gain and the more, money you potentially bring in, the harder I would think it would be to decipher like, who's really wanting to work with me for the right reasons? Who believes in my music, my person,
[00:34:31] Mary: Well, first and foremost, I would say, I work with a manager. Gosh, we've been together now for 12 years. I can't remember exactly, but the one thing about him is that From the minute I met him until, yesterday, the most important thing to him is caring about the person. not about how much money are you going to earn my company or me, it's never been about that. And coming from some of the situations I came from, it was just, Good people like this exist. Oh my God, you know, he's part of the team and every single one of those people on that team, I know, care about me as a person, first and foremost, it's not about bookings and appearances and records
[00:35:15] Michaela: And working you to death.
[00:35:16] Mary: Boy, if I had any advice for anybody and I don't have much, but it would be make sure you're working with people who care about you as a person, because as we all know, and what many of your podcasts are about is how grueling and hard and exhausting mentally and physically this business is.
And so you really do need people who, when you're when you're so tired, you can't think straight and. You're so worn down and you're like, can't, I can't do this anymore. You know, Like my manager, he has seen me have those meltdowns and he's just all about, all right, we're going to fix this so that you can get some rest.
And you know, he just, cares about people. And it's, clear to me with everyone that he works with that he's that way. Again, I'm just so lucky and fortunate
[00:36:02] Michaela: Yeah, that's incredible. Cause I feel like, we often see, people who have like their breakthrough year and then their work to non stop because it's like well, we got to milk this while the irons are hot.
[00:36:14] Mary: you see some caricature of like somebody with a cigar going, Come on, so we're going to get
[00:36:18] Michaela: yeah, Yeah,
[00:36:20] Mary: we're going to get you to Radio City. You know,
[00:36:22] Michaela: you got to keep going
[00:36:23] Mary: we've got to keep You can't stop. And it's like, that's crap,
[00:36:26] Michaela: yeah, managers who can understand, and agents, and all of the people that you're a whole human that wants to do this for a lifetime.
[00:36:34] Mary: But also, As the artist, it's your responsibility to I've known a lot of artists who literally are kind of like, all right, hand me the plane ticket and the itinerary, I'm ready to go. they're just not interested in being a part of the planning process, whatever it is, and then halfway through they're like, oh my god, I can't do this anymore.
And, I should have figured out earlier that this is too hard or whatever, I've always been one of those people, I believe that you just have to be involved, may drive people on your team crazy little bit, but, I have a voice too, and I need to be involved in saying yes or no to things and to abdicate that.
Yeah. Part of it, I think, is where you get into trouble.
[00:37:15] Michaela: Yeah, and I think also building relationships, like you said, with each person on your team, where sometimes like you can have a manager and then they talk to everybody else. And I've over the years really determined and have made it a point for any new relationship to start that I need to have a relationship with each person, not just my manager have relationships with them.
That's been a big thing of, I don't need to be on every single call, but I need to know you and you even more importantly, honestly, need to know me because you need to know what type of artist I am and not just plopping me in The machine just on that. I want to give my manager a shout out.
I think, you know, I've complained about a lot of different bad experiences I've had, but I'll never forget when I was so afraid to tell anybody that I was pregnant
[00:38:04] Mary: that hurts my heart to hear that. Yeah.
[00:38:07] Michaela: And when I told him, I'll never forget, because he did not miss a beat, he said, Oh my God, congratulations. I'm so happy for you guys.
And I said, Oh, phew, I was really nervous. And he said, Oh, man, any time is the right time for you to have a child, as long as you and Aaron think it's the right time for you guys.
And he was like,
and we will, have you working as much or as little as you want and need. whatever your family needs.
And I'm like, that should be what everyone says. And that was such a
[00:38:36] Mary: gift. Mm
not to make this all tidy and everything, but I'm going to try. The other 22 hours, it's like to me, what he's saying is the other 22 hours in your life have got to be constructed as how you want them to be
Mm hmm.
I mean, That's the other thing is that, we're talking about sort of the machinations of, the careers, but what your podcast is about is like, do we live our lives other than that time on stage that team that's so important. like you say, they have to know you and they have to know what makes you tick and what fills your tank and what makes you happy the life that you need in order to have your creative time and your art speak for you.
And my team, I feel, I believe, I know they know what I need, which is, time out here at the farm just, cuddling in the fetal position with my dog and reading more books and, doing fun podcasts with you guys. You know, They just, they know, they know what I need to feel good.
And, His way of saying, congratulations that you're pregnant. it's like, that's a life step that has nothing to do with the two hours on stage. hmm. Mm
[00:39:40] Michaela: And how you live your life is the entire, reason you make the art you make. So having people who understand that, that is sacred, you getting your time at home, that, that is as valuable as you going and playing however many shows a year. Like, You would need
[00:39:59] Mary: both.
I remember one year, I was on the road. And I'm not exaggerating it was like a year and a half of full on, bonkers touring. And, by the end of that, I couldn't speak in complete sentences. I was just nuts.
I was just so tired. And, oh well. keep going, I didn't have the team that I have now, obviously, but No one took me aside and said I think you need to take some time off. It's just Because we're scared to take time off and we're scared to stop and we're scared to you know this that and the other thing and It's just ridiculous
[00:40:33] Michaela: What happened from there? Did you just keep going?
[00:40:36] Mary: Probably. Yeah. I'm a bit of a fatalist. I mean, I'm here now. So, Obviously it wasn't a complete disaster but yeah, I mean, there's just many times I think I wish I had that group text saying, How are you? Really? How are People looking out for you, I didn't.
[00:40:52] Michaela: I think like you said with the group text, for example, having a community that understands what this life is like as artists where even the most well intentioned, empathetic people outside of this business it's hard to comprehend especially when it looks so fun and glamorous.
[00:41:11] Mary: I've said this for years, but it's still true. And that is, I think my family, for example, I have three sisters nieces and nephews I say this with love and deep affection. I don't think anyone in my family truly understands what my life
Yeah.
and it's through no fault of their own. They, They have not ridden a bus, they have not tried to sleep on a bus, or in a van, or on someone's floor. Whatever it is, you know, all the cliches. But, it's not their fault, it's just a fact. Until you are literally in our shoes. you will never completely understand it and you'll never understand why you're arriving home and you're like going, Yeah,
I, I, I, whatever,
you know, Rose cousins.
[00:41:55] Michaela: Huh,
[00:41:56] Mary: yeah.
Okay. Love Rose. she expressed this one day and I've used it ever since and passed it on to other people. The idea of. When you're leaving for tour and you're packing your suitcase and you're like, Oh God, or you're coming back from tour, the reentry, but either way, whether you're leaving or coming back, you're crossing the rickety bridge and that's how she put it and it's perilous.
It really is. And you're just, a mess either coming or going, but. Anyway, I just don't think that my family, who probably know me better than anyone, they'll never understand. again, it's not their fault. I don't hold it against them,
[00:42:32] Michaela: Totally. We would joke, we both are very lucky that we have Two sets of, very supportive parents my mom, before she had her stroke, would go on tour with me, so she would get a taste of what that was like,
[00:42:45] Mary: golly.
[00:42:45] Michaela: But if she hadn't, she wouldn't know, you know, even as much as I shared, but Aaron's dad came to, to build a deck on our house and was living with us for several weeks.
This was like 2019 or something. And we were like laughing at how much he was like. Whoa. oh, we took him to Mountain Stage also. We played Mountain Stage. We took him in the van with the band. He traveled, drove up, drove back. Yeah. And I think I left to go on like a radio tour in the middle of it and he was just like, you guys work really hard.
[00:43:16] Aaron: Funny story from my dad is he was a carpenter and a contractor for my whole life and he retired or when he got close to retiring he bought a lathe and he got really into like making wood bowls and he Makes beautiful wood bowls, but refuses to sell them.
[00:43:29] Michaela: hundreds Hundreds in
[00:43:30] Aaron: their house if anybody that knows my dad if you go to their house and look around you start to realize that There's a lot of decorative bowls in various places Butliterally in the last few months has started branching out and going to more fairs and by going I mean He sets them up and then my mom will go and sell them for him because he really doesn't want to with people But it was a few years ago and he signed up for a craft fair and he went himself and he's like not doing it again.
He's like, I got up at like six in the morning and I packed everything in my truck and it took forever and then I drove for like four hours and I set everything up and I sat there and then at the end of the day I packed everything up, put it back in my truck and I drove home and I made like 300 bucks and I'm like
[00:44:08] Mary: Welcome to our
[00:44:08] Aaron: yes, exactly.
I was like, no, do this every day for two months.
[00:44:12] Mary: Exactly. Now you understand, Dad.
[00:44:14] Aaron: There it is.
[00:44:15] Mary: Boy that's a great story.
[00:44:17] Aaron:
Yeah, Thank you again for carving time to be here with us.
[00:44:22] Mary: I could talk to you guys for hours. Thank you so
[00:44:25] Michaela: likewise. I know. I hope our paths cross someday. 'cause I I have so many stories, especially being a woman in the country music world, Jason, all that stuff. I have so many more things I wanna ask you.
So Hopely someday.
[00:44:38] Mary: The next time I come to Nashville, I'll give you a heads up and we can go out for
[00:44:42] Michaela: Yes, please.
[00:44:43] Mary: I would love that.
[00:44:44] Michaela: I know the whole group text would probably love to be invited to that as well.
[00:44:48] Mary: Just say the word. Say the word. And thank you again for doing what you're doing for so many. I think it's just brilliant what you're doing. And I know it's helping a lot of people
[00:44:58] Michaela: Thank you.
[00:44:59] Mary: I'm inspired. Thank you so
[00:45:01] Michaela: Thank you so much.
[00:45:02] Mary: happy holidays. You guys.
[00:45:04] Aaron: too. It's so
[00:45:04] Mary: And I look forward to our coffee date.
[00:45:05] Michaela: Me too. Thank you. All right. Take care. Bye.
[00:45:08] Mary: Bye bye.
[00:45:09] Michaela: So as Erin mentioned in the intro, about an hour after we had this conversation with Mary Chapin, she sent over an email, still thinking over things and wanted to add a postscript for, in her words, the things that make a concrete difference in my life in the other 22 hours. So this is the list in her words.
Listen to a ton of choral and classical music. It transports me to so many different places. Walk in nature every day and take your binoculars. Today I saw a bald eagle. Read, read, Read. Books, novels, poetry, essays, history. Do things that help others. There is no faster way to get out of one's own head. Have a dance party.
Cook good food, light candles, watch old movies, and talk to a friend every day. And a final thought. As much as I was laughing during our chat about having been doing this for so many years, It's those years that I've spent honing my craft that allow me to believe that I've never been more in possession of the tools of songwriting and performing than I am now.
It is a worthy contradiction to the ageism that is so prevalent in our business. I embrace all the years I've got under my belt because they have brought me to this place where I'm a much better writer than I could have been 40 years ago. Let's celebrate the reality that it takes years to become better at what we do and there is no time limit on it or clock running out.
This is a soul journey.
[00:46:34] Aaron: I don't think we could have written a better wrap up to the first season of the other 22 hours podcast than that right there. words from
[00:46:42] Michaela: Mary
[00:46:42] Aaron: Chapin Carpenter. Yeah. Thank you again to Mary Chapin for being our guest. Thank you to all of you for spending so many hours with us this year.
We wish you all the best and we'll see you all in March. Happy New Year.