The Other 22 Hours

Mary Gauthier on patience in art, persistence in business, and losing with John Prine.

Episode Summary

Mary Gauthier is a Grammy-nominated songwriter and author, who's songs have been recorded by everyone from Tim McGraw and Blake Shelton, to Boy George and Jimmy Buffett. We talk about sobriety, how owning and running restaurants has influenced her music career, writing with veterans, battling homophobia, and so much more, all with a wise dose of patience, and persistence.

Episode Notes

Mary Gauthier is a Grammy-nominated songwriter and author, who's songs have been recorded by everyone from Tim McGraw and Blake Shelton, to Boy George and Jimmy Buffett. We talk about sobriety, how owning and running restaurants has influenced her music career, writing with veterans, battling homophobia, and so much more, all with a wise dose of patience, and persistence.

Get more access, including exclusive content, advance knowledge of our guests and the ability to have them answer your questions, special workshops, and more by becoming a member of our Patreon, at this link.

Links:

Click here to watch this conversation on YouTube.

Social Media:

All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Episode Transcription

[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And if you are a new listener, thank you so much for checking us out. If you're a returning listener, thank you for coming back.

[00:00:13] Aaron: Yeah, we know there are thousands of podcasts out there to choose from.

So it means a lot that you guys keep coming back and checking out our show. If you have a minute, we ask one simple thing. And that's however you heard about this show. just pay that forward to somebody else? So if you saw it on social media, just give it a share on Instagram.

If somebody tweeted about it, just tweet about it. We pride ourselves on being a show from our community, for our community, and so the more listeners we get, the more guests we get, and the more guests we get, the more ideas we can share. So if you just take a minute to pass on the word, however you heard about the show, we'd really appreciate that.

[00:00:46] Michaela: And we are not your typical music promo show. We like to talk to artists about the in between times. Not promoting their latest record or their tour, but we want to talk about the stuff that happens behind the scenes for them to take care of themselves and stay sane, inspired, and creative while building a career around

[00:01:06] Aaron: their art.

Yeah, and with so much that's outside of our control in the music industry, we want to focus on what is within our control. How we approach every day, how we approach our creativity, how we approach our sanity. And so with that in mind, we decided to invite some friends and some of our favorite artists on to ask them the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?

and today's guest is Mary Gauthier.

[00:01:29] Michaela: Mary is Just an incredible writer, teacher, author, person I personally was very excited and you'll probably pick up on it I think I thanked her for different things multiple times throughout the episode.

[00:01:42] Aaron: for those of you that have listened to multiple episodes of our show, you'll recognize Mary's name because, our guest in episode four, Emily Scott Robinson, had quite a bit to say about Mary and her influence On her own songwriting.

[00:01:56] Michaela: Yeah. Mary is a very well respected artist. She's Grammy nominated, has won many awards as she is known for her work of exploring and bringing to light trauma and adversity and hardships. songwriting for soldiers. where she works with veterans and created a record from a lot of those songs, which was the one that went on to become Grammy nominated.

[00:02:20] Aaron: Yeah. Mary's career is really incredible, really long and sustaining and she really started when she was 40, which is completely against any kind of stereotype in the music industry. one of my favorite tidbits. Yeah, and her just viewpoint and approach to everything is so clear and refreshing.

And if you sum it up, it's just patience. And she left us with a really amazing quote on the end. She said, take patience in your art and persistence in your business. And that'll go a long way. And I guess we're going to make a bumper sticker now. So stay tuned for that. Just stay tuned for this whole episode.

We start on sobriety, we end with that, and go to all points in between. And so without further ado, here's our episode with Mary Gauchet.

[00:03:05] Michaela: Thank you for being here.

[00:03:07] Aaron: when we were doing some research on your past before we had this conversation, saw that you went to culinary school and you had second attempt at opening a restaurant when you started writing songs.

Is that correct?

[00:03:19] Mary: I, three different restaurants going at one time in the Boston area. Opening night of the second restaurant, I was arrested for drunk driving. And that was July 12th, 1990. So I got sober and stayed sober. So July 13th. 2023 which was last week was my 33rd anniversary of uh, being sober.

[00:03:44] Aaron: Congratulations.

[00:03:45] Mary: thank you. Yeah. So I got, sober with the help of the Dorchester, Massachusetts Police Department. They got my attention, and uh, definitely, needed to get into recovery. So what happened was was in culinary school. With my first restaurant, my partners and investors were sending me to culinary school when all this happened.

So I opened the second restaurant, got arrested, got sober, finished culinary school. Stayed sober and started writing songs, and I guess it was 2001 when I came to Nashville. So, Got sober in 90, came to Nashville in 2001 as a songwriter. Those 11 years were spent in restaurants, early sobriety, and playing open mics.

And doing 12 step recovery work, to get stabilized. And learning how to live without drugs and alcohol.

[00:04:39] Aaron: Yeah, was songwriting part of that? was your recovery and, journey in that kind of a catalyst to start writing? Was it like a means of processing? Was it just Hey, I love songs. I have these things to say, what was the catalyst for all of that?

[00:04:53] Mary: It gave me purpose. I found myself falling in love with writing songs and learning how to be a better songwriter. And falling out of love with the kitchens and the cooking and the restaurants. I was really passionate about that for a while. But the music and the songs became much more important to me.

It was a process, not an event. they traded places gradually. And music and song very much became, a part of my recovery. using the art form To make sense of my own life and my struggles and, and my own heart and my own soul and the world around me. it consumed me and became the thing that mattered most to me.

And I knew that there would come a point, and there did come a point, where I would have to choose. To be in the restaurant business or to be a songwriter. And I decided over time that I'm gonna give this a go. This music thing. And came to Nashville. I don't think that I probably would have stayed sober if I didn't have This feeling of real deep purpose around, I do as an artist.

[00:06:01] Michaela: and that purpose of, part of your recovery, how much is also a part of connecting with others with sharing the story versus the process of forming your feelings and making sense of your experiences through writing a song and then the separate element of the experience of sharing.

that song and what that reception is.

[00:06:24] Mary: See, that's a big part of it is to deliver art to the people and get the reaction and the response and to receive their stories, and really important to me to become a member of a community of other songwriters. And to be accepted as one of them and embraced and respected, it's a huge big deal to me, just found myself, reinventing myself after I got sober.

is, something that I think you have to do when you get sober. You have to figure out what got you lost how to get out of the woods and then what to do with yourself.

[00:07:01] Michaela: the restaurant world can also be known for, a lot of drug and alcohol use and late nights it can be a challenging environment to, Keep sobriety and stay on a path. Did you find that at all? And then what, transitioning to a musician's life, and the lifestyle of being on the road and becoming a I would say, full time touring musician, were there any challenges that came with that new lifestyle?

[00:07:25] Mary: I had a little breakfast and sandwich shop was my first restaurant. Muffins, Danish scones, coffee, bagels, and there was no alcohol involved. My second restaurant, the landlord was the Christian Science Church in Boston. So we were right next door. There was, no alcohol in my restaurant.

customers brought their own and poured it in cups under the table, but I didn't have a bar at the restaurant. And my third restaurant was a clam shack on the beach. So we served little league ball games and people that were going to the beach. And so none of these were, deeply embedded in the well known restaurant culture of late night drinking the rush.

So I didn't have that to deal with. And because I'm a folk singer, I tend to play coffeehouses and churches and theaters. I'm not a bar act. I

Never was. I didn't have the chops, for one. I didn't play cover songs, ever. I didn't have a band. Really, I'm a folk singer.

I tell stories and generally play solo. So the transition was, wasn't a challenge for me in my recovery per se,

But the road life can be a challenge just because of, trying to burn off the adrenaline after the show. And it gets lonely and, I have to find ways to maintain my stability out there, early on I, started going to gyms in different towns, finding the local swimming pool, usually there's a city pool where you could go swim laps,

Mm Ways To do things that were not self destructive.

it's up to me to engage in that. It takes, planning, Once I got sober, was just really serious about it. And I've never in these 33 years, ever had a moment where I thought I was gonna destroy my sobriety. have a lot of support, a lot of other musicians, a lot of other songwriters, a lot of people that I've met in 12 step programs that we stay in touch with each other, and I've had a real good go of it, with a network of people. around the world that are interested in recovery. And that's one of the great things about recovery, is you get a community,

[00:09:38] Michaela: hmm.

[00:09:39] Mary: get, introduced in a really intimate way to other people who are trying to survive something that wants to kill them.

It's a blessing to me that this is what recovery is made of.

It's made of, community and, support, and people that will take your call anytime at night, that's how it's worked for me. That's probably why I have this longevity.

[00:10:00] Michaela: that's something, I would want to point out for if anybody who is listening to this is contemplating, sobriety or trying to make that change is that neither of us are sober, but we both had times in our lives where we stopped. Drinking, a longer period of time for Aaron, but where we both decided we need to be sober for a bit to readdress our relationship to alcohol and drugs.

And I remember especially being Aaron's partner, observing his process and I won't speak for him. But hearing just how lonely it can feel in the beginning, and like you said being on tour and having to find new activities, Our main activity is not going to the bar anymore.

We also have a two year old, so we don't do that, like, as much.

[00:10:46] Mary: that'll change your life right there.

[00:10:47] Michaela: Very much yeah. So that, another example of when you have a big life change and you can feel this big loss of the people that you were used to hanging out with and the friendships that you had that were maybe bonded over hanging out at the bar or drinking or whatever. And it can feel scary and feel like, Oh no, I'm going to lose all these people in this. And to remember for an example, like what you gave of the incredible community that you can find when you decide to commit to something like sobriety and find a support group and take the time and do the work to find the new activities that can enrich your life in an even healthier.

Better way, but it's just such a big shift that I think it can be easy to focus on what you think you're losing by stopping something that is ultimately also incredibly

[00:11:37] Mary: harmful. Yes. And, in that way, I'm grateful that I didn't have a choice. For me, it was either get sober it was going to get worse. And I think going to jail for drunk driving was pretty bad. There was no end in sight for me. had to face the reality that I had a serious problem. And in a way, that's a gift.

It had me, a position, where I couldn't deny any longer that I had to stop at whatever the cost. Whatever I lost, I had to surrender it. and so, recovery's been a real blessing for me. And it's opened up my life into... of music and song. I never got on a stage when I was drinking. this all happened after I got sober. I never wrote songs. This is all a byproduct of my recovery. so This whole new life as an artist outside of the restaurant in this new world, this creative world of music and song came from being in recovery, so I don't know, I'd have to imagine it a little further, but if you had a lifestyle of hard drinking on the road as a musician and then were asked to get sober, you have such an entrenched set of behaviors.

that would be harder, I imagine.

[00:12:52] Aaron: was the experience that I have. I don't really tour much anymore. I spend most of my time in a studio and produce records and all. But When I started my long stretch of sobriety was on the road and was touring a lot. And luckily the artist I was touring with was sober. So there was like that connection, but nobody else in the band was, working with an artist that was sober, everybody was sympathetic to it.

so I actually didn't mind being on the road. between soundcheck the show was the hardest part. Like after the show, was cool because took me a second. I would just be like, I'm going to bed. I'm tired. You

[00:13:26] Mary: Day is done.

[00:13:27] Aaron: Yeah, exactly. I'm done with work my body says I'm tired.

So I'm going to pay attention to that.

[00:13:32] Mary: to bed now,

[00:13:32] Aaron: But it was the downtime, like we had already loaded in, we had sound checked and the downtime between the show was difficult. And then, It was really being back in Nashville because I was so ingrained in that bar culture in Nashville That's how I met everybody.

I knew when we moved to town About 10 years ago, being at the bar was meeting everybody so coming back to Nashville and being sober I Lost a lot of friends, there were a lot of friends that were just you know Come to find out just drinking buddies essentially

[00:13:59] Mary: Yeah, they were friends the bonding happened in a way that, that's perfectly natural and normal for most people is you have a few drinks and you talk and you hang out. And then if you're not having the drinks, you have to find other ways. To connect with people that aren't at the bar, so many options, There are. Yeah.

didn't know that until I got sober,

[00:14:21] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. It's almost like, having blinders on. couldn't think of any other what

[00:14:26] Michaela: else do you do you do? You ask

[00:14:27] Mary: do people

[00:14:28] Michaela: go have a drink. No, we could go on a walk. We could go on a bike ride. We could play a game.

[00:14:33] Mary: We could cook dinner and have folks over.

[00:14:35] Michaela: yeah,

[00:14:36] Mary: join a book club. go to the movies, see people at a theater and there's just so many alternatives that aren't on the dropdown menu

you're drinking.

[00:14:47] Michaela: I will say too, I think.

In a musician life it's such a specific thing because of the role that alcohol plays in the live music business. So sobriety comes up a lot in these conversations we have, because you know, when you do start out playing at bars, that's how you get paid.

You get paid in alcohol. I do want to jump forward. So you started writing songs and after 11 years, you said you moved to Nashville and started your career

[00:15:14] Mary: Yeah.

[00:15:15] Michaela: according to, internet Wikipedia pages, the ones that list your accolades, it looks like your career just steadily.

Started climbing? Is that what it has felt like or has it felt like ups and downs and twists and turns, or has it felt like, oh, I'm just growing

[00:15:34] Mary: I'm always looking forward. I rarely look back. There's been some real high moments, that's for sure. But I'm always looking forward and plotting and planning and scheming what I might want to be doing next. I think all careers kind of look like the stock market. Up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down.

And there's sometimes really big ups and sometimes really big downs. For me the name of the game has always been to keep doing it, no matter what. Keep doing it. And don't expect that what's happening now is going to always be happening, because that's not the way life works. There's a lot to deal with once you have success. There's an emotional Expectation, your heart expects it to always be like that or to keep going that way, but that's not how life works That's a moment in time and now you got to go back to work. I remember at the Grammys Walking out after I had been nominated and I did not win and John Prine had been nominated and he did not win and I was walking out of one door and he's walking out of the other door And we saw each other, and we walked up to each other, and we gave each other a hug. And uh, I said, well, now what, John? And he goes, back to work.

Mm-hmm. There's this picture of us, we kind of got our face against each other, it's one of the sweetest pictures.

I love that.

But he just went to lunch, and so did I, you know? We just ended up... okay, that was wild.

I wouldn't have ever imagined that, one of the cool things is I lost at the same time John did,

[00:17:03] Michaela: Yeah. That's pretty incredible.

[00:17:05] Mary: Um, And back to work, expecting it always to be... on an upswing is not realistic.

and for me the joy and the challenge and the, beauty and the horror of all this is that every day is different.

If you're going to be an artist, every single day is different and every year is different. And your gross and your net are different every night, every week, every month. You play the exact same show in ten places and you pay differently every time. You know, It's just the way it works. It is a swinging pendulum.

[00:17:37] Michaela: Has anything over time helped you feel more comfortable with that, instability for lack of a better word?

[00:17:44] Mary: Yeah, they came a point, I was always afraid they would take it away from me. For a really long time, I thought that I was getting away with it, and that somebody was going to figure it out, it was all going to be taken away.

And there came a point where I realized, I'm a lifer, and now I don't think they can take it away.

I mean, they might be able to take it away in some places, but they can't take it away all over the world, may not have, I don't know, New Orleans, but I have Baton Rouge. And there's just, so many seeds that I've planted over so many record cycles in so many years. Some of 'em are growing

[00:18:16] Michaela: mhm,

[00:18:17] Mary: they'll continue to grow, and I don't think it's gonna go away. I know it's not gonna go away. It's not always gonna grow. Sometimes it's shrinks. There is a concern that comes with age like, am I gonna age out? And then I look at my heroes and they're all a decade or more older than me, and they're still working. Yeah,

They're sitting in chairs now, but they're working,

you know, They're not standing up anymore, but the chairs are fine.

And I think that's the big deal is Losing the fear of having it removed gives me a sense of it's going to be okay. I just keep going. Just keep writing songs it creates opportunities.

[00:18:52] Michaela: Yeah. I've always had that mentality, too, of fear based, every time I make a record, I'm like, I'm never going to get to make a record again. I'm like why not? I figured out how to do this one. I'll figure out how to do another one.

But you mentioned the fear of aging out. And I had that as a note that I wanted to talk to you about with was age because the folk scene is one thing and I feel like it's a little different than like a larger music business mentality, but

[00:19:18] Mary: that's for sure. And Americana too is less ageist.

[00:19:21] Michaela: yeah. So thinking of not getting started until you're 30s, 40, okay,

[00:19:27] Mary: I was 40 when I came to Nashville. Yeah.

[00:19:29] Michaela: incredible.

was that ever in your mind of am I two of us?

[00:19:33] Mary: Yeah, I'm out of my mind. Who starts at 40? But then I thought, have I got to lose? I should be dead, given my behavior, and I didn't die, and I've got this decade plus one, eleven years sober, let's give it a shot, and if I can't get traction, then I can always find investors and open another restaurant, a trained Chef and I know how to talk to investors and come up with a business plan and present my ideas So if it all falls apart and this doesn't work, I'll do that I haven't had to but coming in at 40 and starting at 40 is weird.

Yeah, it's unusual Most people are feeling really old 40,

[00:20:15] Aaron: Do you see more of an overlap between your history of owning restaurants and Your music career, like has owning restaurants and that experience, whether it's, the actual art of making food or designing a menu or something like that, or the aspect of running the business, do you see any kind of overlap or where you've pulled from one to help you get

[00:20:35] Mary: Yeah, that's part of joy of it for me is I'm a good business person and so I've never had a better manager than me and I've had a lot of managers Big managers, but nobody cares more than I do And I really like running the business part. I need help. I need advisors. I need staff, but my brain enjoys that part of being an artist.

And a lot of artists don't have that. And I think that's really what gave me a leg up. And I think that's one of the reasons I was able to come to Nashville at 40 and get a record deal and get a publishing deal and get an agent and get on the is because I understood how to talk to the business people.

in Nashville

Mm Am a business person and a lot of artists really, really focused and rightfully so on the art,

I have to change hats, today we're doing artists. I'm not answering emails and I'm not taking calls and I'm writing today, and then the next day I'm put on the hat and, I'm telling people, yeah, you're going to have to come up with a little bit than that for me to come to England.

It's doable I try to do it on different days, but I enjoy having both hats and for me, I think that's an advantage.

[00:21:44] Michaela: I like hearing though that you're like I have to separate it out on days even sometimes because I have, I find it really difficult to be like jumping from something and then, oh, I have an hour free. I'm going to try and write a song. And then I just get so mad at myself and I'm like, I can't write songs.

I'm like maybe because you're trying to like whip it off really quick in between meetings and like, you

[00:22:03] Mary: no, I block off time. I mean, I need real headspace to write well. I need real headspace from the business. and sometimes I can do it in hotel rooms, because I'm not, I'm not hammering away at the business. I'm on the road and I have this downtime that we talked about earlier. And if a day off on the road, I'll just get a really nice hotel room with room service and sit at the desk and use it as a time to be creative instead of a time to do business.

[00:22:28] Aaron: kind of siloing off the business and the art? Did you have that mindset coming in? Or is it something that you realized over time once you got there? Into the music business

[00:22:37] Mary: think it happened organically because of the kind of songwriter that I am. It takes me a really long time to write a good song. I need a lot of headspace. I need solitude. I need not to be talking to anybody. I need to be in this zone and it takes me forever to get to the zone and getting to the zone is part of the process. It could take hours to get my brain to the zone where I am in my imagination and in my subconscious and not in, how's the NASDAQ doing? What did they reply to me about that offer in, Pittsburgh or where's this person that they should have gotten back to me? I can't do all that,

Shut all that down to get to the zone.

So I, I just understand this organically, intrinsically, I can't toggle and write.

And for me, writing is, a lot of work.

The work is getting to the zone. And getting the the day to day world and the mechanics of the business away from mind so I can go stare at a flower or whatever it is I have to do.

Look at the sky without, a timer on, you know?

[00:23:45] Michaela: oh my God, this is so nice to listen to . Yeah, because I just I've struggled with writing more than I ever have since I had a baby. Because as a parent, as a mom, your mind is just like constantly running and, hearing you talk about Prioritizing the process to get into the zone it's not just about creating the time to sit down and write.

It's creating the time to get yourself to the space to be able to write.

[00:24:11] Mary: Yeah, dreamlike state that has to happen. I mean, I'm awake, but I'm not in my doing part of the brain. It's left brain, right brain. I mix them up, but it's the side of the brain that's creative, and it doesn't care how much I get paid in Santa Monica.

Mm hmm. Cares that these thunderstorms are rolling in, and these incredible birds are screaming.

and the leaves are upside down and something is happening that I can pull from my imagination and work into a lyric.

And that kind of observation of the world, it's not a natural state for me. I have to get myself there.

[00:24:51] Aaron: You mentioned solitude, and quiet. What are some other things that help you get there? Is that, carving out that space and that time? And are you just sitting and strumming a guitar and singing? Or what are like the tangible things that work for you to get to that

[00:25:04] Mary: Yeah. Good question. Well, In my day to day life and travels, I'm always looking for Things that can go into a song if somebody says something awesome. I write it down if I see something beautiful I write it down if I'm at a movie and there's a scene that has Something in it that I can put into a song I feel this feeling of Wow Around I try I'm always grabbing this stuff and I put it in a pile, and it's a collection of thoughts, ideas, images, sayings you know, scenes.

then when I'm working as a writer, I'll open the pile try to pull from that. this is weird I'm just gonna say, one of the hardest things for me as a writer in Nashville is to write on schedule as a co writer. We got two hours.

[00:25:52] Michaela: ask you about that.

[00:25:53] Mary: you know, it takes me two hours to get in the zone. I'm trying to do this, but there's not a whole lot of good's gonna happen in two hours with Mary Gautier.

Mm That kind of writer. I can't write to a clock. I gotta get to the place where the creativity is awakened.

And so doing it in this quick, Well, I got another appointment at four. I'm trying, but you're not going to get the best out of me if we're in a hurry.

And oftentimes it'll take three or four writing appointments to get the song to where it starts to get good. I can't do it fast.

I'm just not that way. I have written with people who can, and they're amazing.

I'm not like that.

[00:26:32] Michaela: Yeah. Again, this is like the point of these conversations and why I'm someone who's obsessed with reading people's memoirs, and I just always want to know what other people's experiences are because you feel more seen when you can relate to something, and then also you learn when someone's experience is so different.

But to know... the quality of your work and to know your songs and then to hear that's your process is just really exciting for me because, because I also think in Nashville, I don't do a bunch of co writing. I mostly co write with friends, but when I first moved to town, I was dipping my toe into it.

we lived in New York city for 10 years and I always wrote by myself and then moving to Nashville, I was like, Oh, I should try co writing. And then there was that fear that would kick in of like, Well, if I'm not writing fast enough or like my best work isn't coming out immediately, are they also like... Uh, now she's not on par, there's always that pressure of if my process doesn't align with their timeline or their expectations, will I then not get opportunities versus we all are different. one way is not better than the other.

We all process and create in different ways and timelines and. The business doesn't always honor that,

[00:27:44] Mary: business says more is better,

My soul says great is better.

if I give you 20 songs and none of them are great. I'm not proud of that. I'd rather give you one great one.

yeah,

that takes time for me, and that's in opposition to the business.

[00:27:59] Michaela: was that belief system of, Too bad and I'm not going to transform for the business. Was that just in you or has that also happened in time of you just knowing yourself and knowing that you're able to build the business that you want?

[00:28:12] Mary: I do have a publishing deal, and I do deliver them the number of songs I'm required to every year. But I make it clear With anyone I write with that this isn't gonna go fast. I'm not fast and We'll get a better song if you let me go home with it after a couple of hours sleep on it And then let me work on it solo a little bit tomorrow, and let's look at it again together in a day or two Let's hammer on it and make it really really good instead of race to the finish and have it be okay.

That's just boundaries that I set, you know, because I'm not a speed rider. I'm not. lot of the women that are in the Hall of Fame, Matresa Berg, Gretchen Peters, Beth Nilsen Chapman, Liz Rose. I mean, there's not a lot of women in the Hall of Fame here, and I've written with most of them that are still alive.

They're not fast either.

will keep going back. It took me one time to write, seven years to write a song with Beth Nilsen Chapman. We kept going back for seven years before it was, A song I was ready to bring out into the world. The great writers, they just take as long as they take. They take as long as the song takes.

[00:29:17] Aaron: Yeah. That's, pretty much word for word exactly what Rodney Crowell shared with us on this same thing. He was saying he's spent like 35 years working on songs and, people have recorded them, put them out and he still works on verses. He's like, that third verse is still not right.

Let's keep working.

[00:29:33] Mary: Yeah, Rodney told me his batting average, too. Did you get in there with that?

[00:29:37] Aaron: Not explicitly.

[00:29:38] Mary: I think he said four out of ten, meaning four songs out of ten that he's written, he feels like he could bring into the world.

[00:29:46] Michaela: he, oh,

[00:29:46] Mary: about right.

[00:29:47] Michaela: yeah he was very generous with just how much he thinks he fails, which is pretty incredible for someone who looks like he's succeeded a lot so, and not just the business aspect, but just writing really incredible work.

[00:30:01] Mary: the whole thing is to stay in the process. Keep writing.

If you know your average is 4 out of 10, then you're gonna have to write, I don't know, 50 for a record,

then you pick the 12 that are good, and 2 won't make it, there's your 10 songs, and I think he goes in aware of that, and so do I.

[00:30:20] Michaela: Yeah. One of the things that I really admire looking at your work from afar is all of the different things you have going on as well. So not just writing your own songs and having your songs pitched to other people, but, you've written a book. You also do a lot of coaching and teaching with workshops and one on one.

And then you also have songwriting with soldiers, your organization that does work with veterans. Have you had to learn how to time manage all of those things how much to put into each one or is that also just a natural extension of I'm working on this because it's what I feel called to right now

[00:30:59] Mary: yeah, pretty much that. There's sort of natural time management that happens. Just tell my agent, look, leave me off the road here. I got to finish this book, or tell Songwriting with Soldiers, book me into several retreats, or I can't do it right now because I'm finishing a book, or I have tour dates.

So I'm always juggling my schedule. But they don't seem to collide and conflict so much. Having a lot of different things that I do keeps my life interesting. I love teaching so much. I love working with songwriters. I do few workshops every year and it's part of the thing I'm on earth to do.

I'm supposed to be doing that. It's a great pleasure for me. It connects me deeply with purpose and, I get a lot of joy from working with songwriters and helping them to move their songs forward. I carve out time for that and just block it off. That's what I'm doing here for these, days. and the book came because I was offered a deal to write it through uh, St. Martin's Press. I played around with it for a while and then it started getting closer and closer to deadline. Then I had to say, okay, we gotta focus. And that's what I did. Records are like that when I'm, I'm getting close to having enough songs for a record.

Then I'll go, okay, I'm going to buckle this seatbelt and write. And right we're gonna bring this to conclusion and i'm gonna make a record

[00:32:11] Aaron: I was listening to a writer talk yesterday about deadlines and using self imposed deadlines to finish things. So when he starts songs, he purposely has no deadline, doesn't even think of the word, anything like that, so that there is room to test, find where the walls of this song are and push on them and test.

And, you maybe it's not here, maybe it's over here, and the freedom to explore without any kind of stress encroaching on that zone, once it starts to maybe he realizes that he's just spinning his wheels in the mud on it a little bit he'll set himself a deadline and, whether it's to actually record it or whatever it is to then really put his nose to the grindstone and get it finished.

And I thought that was a really, really cool idea because, deadlines definitely kick me way into gear.

[00:32:54] Mary: yeah can help me too it's just putting boundaries around time and knowing that i have to make choices if i'm doing this i can't be doing that prioritizing things for me is probably more important than deadlines i make it a priority and i'll get to the end of it if this is what i prioritize

[00:33:09] Michaela: Can you talk a little bit about songwriting for soldiers?

[00:33:13] Mary: Yeah, I've been a part of that program for 15 years, I guess. and it pairs professional songwriters with wounded veterans at a small retreat center. And, we listen and we take their story and turn it into a song. we found over the years that it's, really a powerful experience for both the songwriter and the veterans.

it helps to give them a platform, where they're safe to talk. See, songs are where you tell secrets. And uh, awful lot of the trauma experience of our veterans is that they carry too many secrets. And so when we can get it into a song and get it out of them, there's a cathartic, emotional release that's really helpful.

takes some of the pressure off of them.

[00:33:54] Michaela: I think when I think about songs and what I love about a lot of folk singers and non mainstream pop music is that there's stories That we don't commonly hear, like a lot of, popular mainstream music can be a lot of reoccurring themes about romantic relationships. And there's so many more stories in our lives that I think are important to share.

And when we were all on Kayamo together and I saw you perform and you wrote a song, if I'm remembering correctly, from The Spouses. Perspective of being the one left behind and have been a military spouse. I grew up military and my dad is a. I'm a retired submarine captain and my uncle, was actually the commandant of the Marine Corps.

So I come from a big military family and my whole life watching my mom move her kids around, We moved every other year and she didn't have a career because being an unpaid military spouse is really a career. And that's the first time I've ever heard a song. That. had any resemblance to what I would imagine my, mother and my aunt's experiences.

Cause you just don't find that kind of stuff in mainstream music, I love seeing that, especially bringing all those kind of experiences to light through that work. I know I've read, Processing trauma is a big motivation for you and through that work. So I guess this is way to say thank you, because I think it's really incredible.

[00:35:22] Mary: Yeah, it's beautiful work. And it gives us, the songwriters, as much as it gives the members of the military who've served, and those who've served. The songwriters get really in touch with, The power that we have to do something to serve those who've served. There's great joy in that, even if we're crying, it's beautiful.

And articulating different perspectives is really important. Writing from the spouse's perspective, from the kid's perspective, writing from this perspective of a gold star family,

A gold star mother, the different people, when a member of a family serves, the whole family serves. And I don't think Americans understand that. But that's the truth, that it's a commitment of the entire family. And I didn't understand it until I started listening to their stories and witnessing, their lives. it's been a great education for me. I've learned so much about people I wouldn't have met in any other way.

[00:36:21] Michaela: you know, I moved to New York City at 18 for college and had spent my entire childhood moving from, military bases. And in New York, in the communities at the art school I was in, and, I worked at a record label, and nobody had met people who grew up in military families.

So many people were like, What? Your dad's a submarine captain? I was like, yeah, like so many people's dads I know like, cause that's where I grew up. And interesting, We can feel all, so divided sharing stories through whatever art form is how we learn about each other.

And I haven't really thought about that much, until this moment, the very first song I, I ever wrote, I was five years old and it was just a piano piece. So there were no lyrics, but it was called, when daddy comes home because my dad was. It's out to sea for sometimes six months out of the year.

And I remember vividly finding like a minor chords and thinking, Oh, this is what it feels like that my dad's not here and we don't get to talk to him. And just what that does to your brain to get to go through that process of trying to communicate a feeling through creating something. And then. To listen to it, to be the other side and get to receive that and learn empathy

[00:37:36] Mary: that's what it's all about. Right there. Empathy. the experience of not being you, but of being someone else for a short moment. To get out of the self into the experience of someone else to the depth of actually feeling it. And that is what's, we're in short supply culturally right now. And this is where songwriters can really build bridges. And help culturally to make sense of what are they thinkin I don't know what they're thinkin but here's what they're feelin Cause songs are what feelings sound like.

you know, Workin with military and military families has been really tremendous for me. And it's an incredible gift get, to be in this position to help bridge that civilian military divide, because it's real. An awful lot of civilians don't know anyone who served.

day to of a military family.

They don't even know that a whole family serves when a member serves. not common knowledge, there's a great grand canyon between the military and the civilians the states these days, and being a part of the solution has been a big deal. I think Songwriting with Soldiers is an incredible program.

[00:38:45] Michaela: That's awesome. We'll definitely

[00:38:46] Aaron: link to it. Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes for anybody that wants to hear more about what that is and check out that program.

[00:38:53] Michaela: Yeah. I had one question, on I saw you and Patty Griffin and Nico Case do an in the round and then there was also like a Q and A involved.

do you remember this

[00:39:06] Mary: Yeah,

Yeah, Patty, it was Patty's idea, the one who got us into that.

[00:39:12] Michaela: There was a question about sexism in the music business, and Nico Case was just fire. It was

[00:39:20] Mary: incredible.

She's fire anyway, but boy, get her talking about sexism in the music business.

[00:39:26] Michaela: Yeah. And she was very much just like, I love music. I hate the music business. And she was just, has had some experiences that were unfortunate and very fiercely like this is my belief system and I think this shit is messed up. And I remember Patty Griffin was like, fortunately I haven't had a lot of these negative experiences.

And then you made a small comment that didn't get expanded on you made a comment to Nico of, you said something like, I have a feeling the way that, a comment or something that you say might be received by men in this business is different than how it's received from me as a gay woman and made a comment about, being a femme heterosexual woman versus how it's received being a gay, not super feminine.

[00:40:13] Mary: over and Over and over again.

[00:40:15] Michaela: and do you feel comfortable expanding

[00:40:17] Mary: Yeah, I think that men treat me differently than they treat pretty women.

Women that they have sexual tension with, or women that they can objectify, and feel the need to have some sort of dance with. There's no need to dance with me.

We're dealing with each other two guys, in a way. I'm not engaged in that part of their psyche, and I never have been. And it's made it a lot easier for me, I think. Now, I'll come up against, the homophobia, but I think that's different. I've seen sound men just be horrible to straight women.

Just horrible.

They'll ask for something, and man'll say, That's not how it works in this room, or that's not how this board works. You know, If I ask for some more hymids in my vocals and they answer that, whoa, we gonna have us a conversation. But they don't answer that because they know. it's just a long book could be written about these types of dynamics in our business.

. complicated. We look at each other and sum each other up really quickly and decide how to position ourself, with each other.

And a lot of it is stereotype and we're acting in ways that we're not even aware of. But I'm sure that sexism has... had some kind of effect on me, but in my day to day life, I'm more dealing probably with homophobia.

my woman ness is not as problematic as, me being a gay woman.

[00:41:51] Aaron: does the homophobia appear in your day to day? From the business

[00:41:54] Mary: Well, it's ethereal and I can't pin it down. It's sexism is probably like that too. I'm sure there's opportunities that had. Because I am not that kind of a woman.

But, to be that kind of a woman also comes with problems.

The whole thing we're dealing with is patriarchy and we need to burn it down.

I'm with Nico on that. If we could learn how to contend and deal with each other as people rather than genders.

We can find our way in a more egalitarian way. But it's patriarchy that, the problem. It's male dominance.

the producers are all men. The engineers are all men.

Radio's run by men. People on the radio are men. And women are fighting for one spot at a festival. the big conversation, I think Patty was trying to have, is that conversation.

The top 20 in country music, there'll be one or two women.

[00:42:44] Michaela: Yeah.

I love the Americana Association and, and the community, but even I look at the Americana charts all the time. It's mostly

[00:42:51] Mary: nice.

is men.

[00:42:55] Michaela: Yeah. I like how you said it's ethereal though, because the complexities of prejudices and biases that we experience. It can be so difficult I've gone through this so much in my head of wait, I feel like I was just treated differently because that older man I work with is treating me like I'm a child or they're making assumptions because I'm a new mother or, and then I'm like, but I can't quite prove it.

And it's like, you get gas lit of If you were more successful or had a bigger audience, maybe you wouldn't be treated this way, and it's such a mindfuck, and you're like, wait, no, I really think I'm right here. again, having these conversations, bringing, like you said secrets being brought out in songs, and we like to say, Mold Grows in Darkness.

We like to bring things to light, That's what the importance of and what my excitement of having these conversations of these common experiences and things that we, honestly, the patriarchy also benefits from us not talking about and being told, that's annoying. Just stop. Like you're whining.

[00:44:06] Mary: Yeah. Yeah. Be grateful.

[00:44:07] Michaela: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:44:09] Aaron: thank you for taking time today to sit down with us and have this conversation. one thing I've noticed just in everything you've shared with us and your viewpoint on industry and the career and the creative process and all that is patience.

You seem so incredibly patient, in the process and That has just been really mind opening for

[00:44:28] Mary: Yeah. Patience and persistence.

Yeah

And even in the face of some of this difficult stuff, just keep showing up

And stare 'em down, sometimes in silence until you get what you need. until you can crack the code. I, absolutely, have consistently shown up. And have worked on, my art patience and perseverance and my business, patience and perseverance.

And that's what it takes for a long career, you can overweight talent in your understanding of how this works. Talent is important. It's not the most important. Awful lot of talented people can't get a career. It's persistence and diligence and patience with the art and persistence with the business.

[00:45:14] Michaela: Patience with the art. Persistence with the business. Yeah. It should be a bumper sticker. Your new merch line.

[00:45:21] Mary: Artists would know what we're talking about.

[00:45:23] Aaron: Yeah,

[00:45:23] Michaela: exactly. Well, yeah. Well, Thank you so much. And I wanted to just one last compliment to you of we referenced that we talked about the age thing and you Starting at 40 and I wanted to tell you and I hope you take this as a compliment that as a woman in this business I've had so many conversations with other women where we talk about our fear of like my career's not where I thought it should Be at this point and am I too old and so many times we reference you and Lucinda and we're just like Have we ever cared about their age? No. And how old were they when they started? And their songs just are better and better all the time, so... thank you.

[00:46:01] Mary: You just keep hammering on the rock, you know, that's, what we do. And, And I think that focusing on excuses why it's not working isn't gonna help art. Just do great art and then figure out how to do business. could be an excuse age.

Or, gender or sexual preference, or, my voice isn't great, or I'm not an awesome player. People don't care about that stuff. if your song moved them, they're going to give you money to write another one. You know, that's, That's it.

Yeah.

We don't care how old Willie Nelson is or Lucinda or Patti Smith.

[00:46:36] Michaela: Yeah.

[00:46:37] Mary: Move me and let's keep it going. Yeah.

[00:46:39] Michaela: Yeah. Thank you so much, Mary.

[00:46:42] Mary: Thank y'all.