Miko Marks is a singer/songwriter from Oakland California, who was a member of the CMT Next Women of Country class of 2022, has played the Grand Ol Opry, won multiple Independent Music Awards, and stepped away from a professional career for over a decade to raise her child and be present for her family. We talk about the choices to step back, as well as to return to performing and recording, how that changed her approach and outlook, grounding in your own path, making your world small, living the experiences you are having, your career as a spiritual journey, and more.
Miko Marks is a singer/songwriter from Oakland California, who was a member of the CMT Next Women of Country class of 2022, has played the Grand Ol Opry, won multiple Independent Music Awards, and stepped away from a professional career for over a decade to raise her child and be present for her family. We talk about the choices to step back, as well as to return to performing and recording, how that changed her approach and outlook, grounding in your own path, making your world small, living the experiences you are having, your career as a spiritual journey, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to today's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:13] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and we are more than halfway through our second year of the podcast. With no signs of slowing down, we're so happy to still be here and so thankful that you are here listening.
[00:00:24] Aaron: Yeah, because we wouldn't be able to have a show without you guys here. So we have a couple quick asks before we jump into today's episode. First off is that we want to bring your attention to our Patreon community. It takes a lot to produce even a small show like ours, so Patreon is our way to support that and keep the wheels headed down the road.
We have all the normal Patreon offerings as well as advanced notice of who our guests are, so you can ask them questions directly. There is a ever growing community of other creatives. it's a living, vibrant thing that's changing all the time. If that interests you, there's a link below in the show notes.
If you are a returning listener and you have a favorite show, be great. If you could just take a second and share that show with somebody that doesn't know what we do. We'd like to think that this show is from our community for our community. Chances are you heard about the show from a friend or from social media.
So. However, you found out about this show, if you wouldn't mind just sharing your favorite episode that way, I'm sure there is somebody in your circle that would love to hear what some of our guests have to say, and we'd love to have them as listeners.
[00:01:24] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves in this podcast is that we don't think of these as traditional music interviews.
We're not music journalists. We're not asking about the musician's latest. record or their tour. We are musicians ourselves. So we are talking about the honest realities of all that goes into building a lifelong career around your art.
[00:01:45] Aaron: So in focusing on the sustainability and the longevity of this career, we've found it best to focus on what is within our control. So that ends up being our mindsets, our headspace, our routines, wisdom that we've gleaned in hours in the van, on stage, off stage, in various mental spirals.
And so we've boiled that all down to the, Underlying question. What do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to ask that question of Mikko Marks.
[00:02:15] Michaela: Mikko Marks is a Black female country artist, and the only reason I specify her race is because of the integral part of the story of her experience trying to break into country music.
In the early 2000s, building a career, taking intentional time off over a decade from pursuing a career and fully being a mother and a wife and enjoying family life before stepping back into the music industry career path in 2020.
[00:02:46] Aaron: the wisdom that she has gleaned, the perspective the fresh approach, the appreciation, the gratitude, all of that is just so tangible in this conversation with Mika.
Yeah, we talk about the evolution of loosening the hold on the reins of your career, being able to really step into your sense of just being rather than always achieving. And it's really a testament to wisdom and feelings that can only come through time and experience.
[00:03:14] Michaela: We're really grateful that she was willing to share all that with us.
[00:03:17] Aaron: So without further ado, here's our conversation with Miko Marks.
thank you so much for being willing to come on
[00:03:24] Michaela: I'm excited to dig in because I feel like it's, especially for a woman, there's so much to dig into about you had a long stretch of time where you weren't releasing music.
And if we can just jump in right there, your backstory of you started putting out music and having a career Flower in the early 2000s, and then by 2008, if I'm correct, you took some time off and went like about a decade before you started putting records out again being out there. Is that correct?
[00:03:53] Miko: yeah, that's correct. I gave it a good shot, you know, in the early two thousands, I really, really tried and I put my whole heart into it. And sad to say it didn't work out for me at that time, because I don't think that the music industry was ready for a black woman, person of color being in the mainstream at that time.
country,
Yeah. So yeah, I took a break. Just from recording. I still love to perform. That's what I love. That's, that trumps recording, like just to get out and connect with people and be with the crowd. But I was like, you know what, maybe this isn't for me. And so fortunate for me. I was married at the time.
I must have been married like 10 years when I stopped. Recording and had a little boy. His name's Justin. Justin was about nine. And then I was like come on, it's me and you. What are we doing? Soccer camp, softball, basketball, golf. What are we going to do? And it took some time to figure out this young man because he's an artist.
I put him on the baseball field. He got hit in the head with a baseball. That was it. No more baseball. He went down like a wet noodle. He was just like the ball hit him in the head and he was just like, and he just went down and I was just like, Oh my God. So we tried everything, basketball, too much running, Then we went into golf, which I was like, This is not gonna work either. But he took to golf. He was really good at it. And then I was like, Oh, where there's hope, there's a sport for you. And then, he went to high school. I was just all about my son still have one kid and he's 28 now, but back then I was just so into parenting him and getting him off and thriving and he got a little wayward on the side.
Like I had to take him out of middle school because he had started getting into trouble. And I was like, okay, you're going to come home and learn. We're going to homeschool. So I got with a group of moms and Alameda County out here in California. And I just got with this group of moms.
We had a lesson plan and for two years I homeschooled him. And when it came time for high school, I was like, okay, I think you're ready. And so he went to high school, did so well, played water polo. Another non eventful. Well, It's eventful, but it's not hard on the body. So he excelled in that and graduated.
And now he's He's off and running with his own music career. He open for Billie Eilish and Ed Sheeran. He's just, he's over there doing his own thing, but I gave him the tools when he was really little to really embrace music. I gave him one video game. And this is so funny because I'm so against video games for kids.
I just think it's just mind numbing and just takes away their creative side of things. So they came out with And I was like, Oh, Justin, you want to play this game? And he just was fiending for a game, any game, and so he took Guitar Hero and won that. And I was like, Do you want lessons? So that's how that started.
Cool. Amazing.
I spent most of the time just being a mom. And my husband, because after I had my son, he was like, I think you need some activity. I think you need something to do. He was like, would you like to play tennis? I'd never played tennis growing up. I never got into that. So about around the early two thousands I started playing tennis and I was horrible. It was the worst. But luckily for me, there were a lot of other horrible girls. So we were just all on the courts being horrible together and learning the game. And and so I just spent a lot of time at my little club playing tennis and Waiting for my son to get off school and doing that whole thing.
Was eventful still even without, doing music. I was busy.
[00:07:33] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely we are just at the beginning of our Parenting journey. We have a three year old
[00:07:38] Miko: Oh bless you.
[00:07:40] Michaela: she's in the vocal booth right now. Yeah,
[00:07:42] Miko: I want to see this, I want to,
I want to see this baby when this is over because
Little people are my
favorite folks.
[00:07:47] Aaron: I feel like I'm gonna take Michaela's line here, but you know, there's this stereotype when people are looking at artists that take time away to be a parent and raise a family where it's like Oh, you stepped away. You weren't doing anything and it's like oh I was Busier then than I am now, you know, like Michaela famously talks about Patty Smith doing that.
They're like well, you weren't doing anything for decades. She's like, I was raising my kids. I
was very busy it's a very creative endeavor too. It takes a lot of creativity to. Keep a child engaged, keep a child intrigued and interested. It takes a lot of creative thought and
[00:08:21] Michaela: get a child to do anything, to teach a child. It's all like, it's so creative, but he's referencing this Patti Smith quote on podcast, Wiser Than Me, where I got so much criticism for taking, you know, a decade plus off from putting work out there. So she was like, I was writing every day.
I was writing all the time. I just wasn't publishing or releasing music or going on tour or doing any of that stuff. And she was like, but. But even if I wasn't, she was like, I was changing diapers. I was cleaning children. I was raising them. But to me, it's just a testament of societally, we don't value that stuff.
So we don't think that that's doing something because it's not something that we can show as an achievement. Did
you have any of those feelings to grapple with? Or were you really like, intrinsically just all in to your decision of, just throwing yourself to motherhood? Or did you ever have any of that pull of am I, any self judgment or questioning or anything like that?
[00:09:27] Miko: I would say that I did along the way because When I was raised up singing in the church and, my life being all about that I felt like I was doing a disservice to my gift. I felt like I was sitting on it and there's this one little famous story and I'm not a Bible told her or anything but there was this one famous story about this man that was given gifts and what they did with the gifts, you either shared it, buried it, or, you know, you hoarded it.
And I felt all the time, but every now and then the little thing about me hoarding it would show itself, Oh, you're not making any use of your gift, like your talent is being buried. And, that's selfish. And that's, You know, so I had that to deal with, but it wasn't all the time because I was really fulfilled with being a mom and, and being a wife, my husband would go off as a firefighter and risk his life every day.
I felt my role in our family was to hold the home together. And so I'm grateful that I didn't have to have a nine to five to be away from my son, or I could go pop in on his school whenever I felt like it.
so I did take my role seriously as a mom because of the dynamic of my family. And so it was not. A lot that my self loathing for not singing would, you know, show itself because I was so into my son and into my family life but it did come up. It did. I was just like, Oh my God, you've been blessed with this talent and you're not using it.
You're not sharing it. doing a disservice, so I did have those feelings.
[00:11:03] Michaela: when you shifted away from the career partwas that a gradual thing that happened or was there a moment for you where you were like, I'm gonna take a break from this, where you said earlier it didn't work out for me. Was that like something that just gradually shifted in your life, or was there like a point where you just said, okay, I'm done.
[00:11:22] Miko: were two turning points. So before I even got into pursuing music and doing a career, I was a legal secretary at this law firm in San Francisco. And I just used to have a dream of being an attorney, but that didn't happen. So I was like, what's the closest thing I can do? Paralegal, attorney, secretary kind of thing.
When I started to embark on music, I went to my bosses and I was like, look, you got six months. I'm going to be leaving here to pursue music. And I'm going to give you six months notice. And they were like, Oh, okay. I hope it works out for you. so that was an abrupt like, let's get into music.
And then. When it came down to me deciding just to stop recording, stop trying to pursue that dream, It was something that marked it. So from 2005 to 2007, I performed at the Country Music Festival. Awards, CMA Fest they changed the rules. They made the rules to where you had to have a certain amount of spins.
You had to have some kind of charting. You had to have all these things. You couldn't just be like, Hey, I want to do this and earn a spot. There was all this criteria. So it just knocked me out I didn't meet the criteria anymore. And so that moment that I got that letter that said, we regret to inform you.
That you cannot do this. It really took the wind out of my sails. And I was like, you know what, I'm done with that. And so I just maintained my band. I maintained relationships around town with places that I played and I would still play, but I wasn't writing. I wasn't recording. I was just not doing any of the musical side of things, except for like my, standing gig somewhere, But that was the turning point when I got that letter. It really turned me around because it was just like, Oh well, what can I do now? You guys have just shut the door I'm not going to try to beat my head against that door anymore.
[00:13:13] Aaron: other end of time away what, made you come to the decision step back into it?
[00:13:23] Miko: out two albums. You know, It feels good. You're done. So I was like, you've left a mark. Finished. I had this dream. And I'm all about dreams, I think they tell you, they direct you, they kind of give you pause for things.
So I had this dream where me and my old band, we were rocking out, we were jamming and we were just playing music. So I got up the next day and I called Justin Phipps at Red Tone Records and I was just, and I didn't know about Red Tone Records. I was like, Justin, we need to be playing music. We need to be doing this.
I had this dream and and I hadn't talked to him in 13 years or so. he's like, that sounds really interesting. He was like, yeah. So I started this label and I have a song called good night America. He's like, I'd love to send it to you. Do you want to hear it? He sent good night America at a time when there was so much happening with black lives matter.
There was so much social injustice. There was just all these things about immigration and, all these things that I had grown to really feel connected to. so he said, good night, American. I just bawled. I cried like my eyes out. It was just like this song about America's wrongs. original people to people of color and just the marginalized, the disparity between the rich and the poor.
And it was just really trying to say in this song, America, let's put this to rest and let's start anew. And so I did that song. We went in the studio at Redtone and I recorded that song. I'm thinking it's a one off. I'm like, Yes, I've recorded a powerful impactful song. this'll be my legacy, you know. and Justin was like oh, oh, oh, we have more. Wanna do another one? And I was just like, okay, what's happening here? And so I didn't go out to pursue coming back into music. I kind of was chilling with the life that I was living. But had a itch I needed to scratch just as far as performing, but then it turned into recording and Here we are, but it wasn't like I Intentionally wanted to do recording again.
I just felt like my time was done,
[00:15:33] Aaron: started releasing music again 2021?
assume
that like, this, so it was pretty quick between like recording these songs and then starting to release them.
[00:15:43] Miko: the call happened when I called him was August of 2019 November of 2019, we did Goodnight America. Then we put it out in 2020 on Martin Luther King's birthday. so it was just like, bloop bloop, there you go. And so, then I was back in it.
[00:15:58] Michaela: And also in such a dramatically interesting time with the pandemic and the live music industry, you know, being obliterated. so then that kind of re entry I would assume was gradual because people weren't touring for a little bit, but then to get back into kind of this more from the outside looking like full time approach, was that something that was like, okay, this is happening.
I'm making this decision to, to go have career ambitions again.
[00:16:29] Miko: Yeah, but it was gradual, like you said um, it took so many pieces to fall into place It was just me and my old bandmates making music and then, Reesey Palmer of Color Me Country reached out to me and was like, Hey, I've started the show. I'd love for you to be my first guest ever to come on.
so I went on there and it was just like sister girl conversation, like kind of how we're having right now. Really natural and really just at ease and. Then I met Kelly McCartney, who had another show on Apple Music, and then she introduced me to Blair. And so there was this whole little snowball of things that happened to bring me back into, Okay, I'm doing this full time.
Yeah, Recy's great. She was a guest on our show about 10 episodes ago and very real, very easy to talk to.
I have to watch it with her because we start laughing and cackling and it's just It turns into a thing
[00:17:22] Aaron: yeah, did you know Recy from I'll awkwardly call it career 1. 0? Yeah. Yeah. Like.
Yeah, career 1. 0 is we were coming up at the same time or coming out shall I say at the same time when I saw her I was so scared and jealous And like,Oh no, who is this? so I had this like heart stopping moment of this competition piece of music that sometimes you have that in youth, but I think she made her grand old Opry debut back in 2006 or somewhere around there, six or seven.
[00:17:55] Miko: And that was the moment I was like so happy and so proud of her achievement. I didn't know her, but I sent her flowers. And I was just like, really wanted her to know that I saw her and I was really happy to see a black woman on that stage because it had not been for many years since the 1960s. And So it was a monumental moment that I wanted to show her that I recognized her. And I was really proud of her. And it still brings me like, emotional pieces in my soul because it was just such a beautiful thing. And so our friendship grew. From that time. So we've been friends for a lot of years now and um, we've done a lot of things together too.
beautiful. That is
[00:18:38] Aaron: really beautiful. I Felt that competition thing, you know, like pit in my stomach thing, but I, can only imagine what it would be like in a country scene as a black woman in the early two thousands, let's be honest, even today but, still, I think in my observation, just in the last five years, seems like more doors have opened to, to, to.
People of color in the industry, but, all that is a roundabout way of saying that I find so much beauty in that, in sending her flowers and being like, of honoring her and seeing her and being like, man, thank you.
[00:19:07] Miko: that's the time that I really just stopped looking at any singer in a competition kind of way. Because the thing is, the thing about it is we're all different and we all bring our best selves to the table. And in doing that, you enrich the whole platform and process by not being the only one, So that I haven't looked back on. I haven't felt any competition for any other artists, woman the richer,
[00:19:34] Aaron: my experience again, it's like on one side of the wall feeling that jealousy, whatever you want to label it as, it seems like so insurmountable. And it's like this fear and this, all of this. And then as soon as you reach out and you reach across that, you're like, Oh, as the tide rises, so do all the ships.
And it's way
more beautiful on this side of the wall.
[00:19:49] Miko: yes, absolutely.
[00:19:50] Michaela: I think, though like, I always want to walk through the rationale of why we do battle envy and jealousy, and I really like talking about it because I think there's so much shame around feeling jealousy. We've been together for 17 years, so we met in music school and have really like watched each other grow up.
and build careers and professional lives and lots of hard times. And we'll talk about also the gender dynamic of jealousy. Why does it seem like women have kind of historically have more jealousy with each other? And when I try to really have an empathetic look at it, I don't think it's inherently in us more.
I think it, really is just that when you look at the opportunities, And the people who hold the places for the opportunities and there really are only one or two spots available, your survival mentality immediately starts to go well, if there's only one spot for a female, oh, there's even half of a spot for a black female it just gets more and more narrow.
So then our emotional reaction is yeah, I guess I'm in competition with that other person who fits the same boxes that I do. This industry, society is labeling us as,
and it takes a lot of emotional work to be like, you can justify it a million ways of like, okay, but for financial survival for career achievement, like I have to be the one in there takes the emotional work and I think spiritual work to be like, wait a second. I don't want to be like that. So how do I then choose and believe that we can have, be in a position of empowerment when we're together versus feeling like I always go back to Gretchen Peters was on here and said the music industry always puts artists in this position of please can I have.
So instead of feeling like I'm in this position of please can I have that one little tiny spot available and I need to. Be in competition with everybody else trying to get that spot taking a position of No, I'm not going to believe that story. And if that spot's not available, we'll create some other spots.
And we can do that if we're together. you know, I still on a daily basis have moments of jealousy at times that then I'm like, why am I feeling this way and have to walk myself through that. But I think it can be so ingrained of like, if you look at a festival roster, you're like, oh wow, there's one woman on there.
If you look at a country music festival roster, no women, no non white people
like
[00:22:19] Miko: Right.
[00:22:20] Michaela: it's crazy. So all to say, I appreciate whenever anybody brings up like, I felt. Jealousy and this is how I evolved through that and chose to take different actions from that
[00:22:45] Miko: not put so much pressure on myself to be the best or be the one. I've come to a place where I just want to be. Whatever that looks like and really have my feet firmly planted and grounded in just being and whatever that my being is looking and it resonates with people.
Then I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't have to chase this thing, you know, and my life has evolved and changed in so many ways. Like I've grown and matured in so many ways from. My early thinking to where I have a real comfort in just making great music and not really necessarily being famous or being the one on this thing.
No, I have my own path and that path is being laid out in a beautiful way for me that I get to share. So my goals in music have changed. My perspective on music has changed. I'm not writing songs to fit in to a little box anymore. Or what I think somebody wants to hear, I'm writing my experience, I'm writing my journey and I'm just putting on what I want to put out into the world, you know, and that's really the driving force more so than any algorithm or any structured way to do things or what's, the hit I can't think about any of that. I have to just be that took a lot of the weight off my shoulders as far as what I was trying to lift and carry.
[00:24:10] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely I spent years on the road and mostly what I do now is producing and that having worked with a lot of where, my job was to interpret the artist's music, like as clearly and as quickly as possible. That's kind of something that I learned over the years is like, Oh, the music that really sticks with me.
And I see resonates with people. Is this music that is grounded in what you were just saying integrity in their own unique vision that is just laser focused on that rather than like trying to be something else.
when it's focused on what's happening now or this playlist, whatever you want to say, it's very superficial it feels plastic. And I feel like the listener can feel that
[00:24:49] Miko: Absolutely, the listener knows. You can tell that they know from like live shows. You go out and you do some song that's just cookie cutter. You can tell. There's this wall between you and the audience. And you know, it's just like you can't really deliver it in a passionate way.
You the song doesn't connect. You could be the greatest singer and have a song that doesn't resonate with you and you cannot connect that. like I said earlier, I love live. So my whole thing is like grabbing you and touching your soul and letting you feel what I'm feeling and seeing if there's something in that, that hits you, you know, and then I walk away from that show.
[00:25:28] Aaron: Like I did it. I did my job. I. gave the reel to them and they accepted it, in showing up like that and showing up in your power, in your integrity, you're giving the entire audience permission to show up as themselves comfortably, wholly, and it's a pretty amazing thing to be able to do.
[00:25:45] Miko: it's awesome. And it's awesome to see the people let their guards down and they're just like, full on 100 percent themselves. And it may not be pretty all the time, but it's good.
[00:25:57] Aaron: what I love about live music is it's an art form that is purely in the moment and it takes both sides. It takes the artist showing up and being on point and it takes the audience showing up and being on point. It's if you have a great band and a bad audience, it's not a fun show.
If you have a bad band and a great audience, it's not a fun show,
[00:26:14] Miko: And
you can start off with a bad audience. And they turn into a good audience.
[00:26:18] Aaron: yeah. It's purely in that room or, field, wherever the show is, it's in that moment right then and there. together and we had Mark Arelli on our show who's a great songwriter and guitar player from Boston and he was talking about, I think he had played a show in Boston and he had a friend who is a anthropologist, I think, I might get that wrong, but anyway, a professor at Boston College and he came up to Mark after and he's like, man, you really did your part tonight.
Mark's like, oh, what do you mean? He's like, it's, the ritual, like the human ritual. There has been performance. For all of human existence, and it takes the artist showing up and delivering the story, delivering the song, whatever it is, and it takes the audience being there receiving openly and giving their energy back.
[00:27:00] Michaela: a relationship rather than thinking of the musician is the performer performing at the people and that that's just like this anonymous side. I just got back from like four house shows where I'm doing like fans can apply to host and I'll go play like wherever they want me to play.
And it was so interesting because every night was such a different audience. It's the first night was all these community people who were like, songwriters and have a songwriting group. So like after every single song, it turned into like a Q and A, which if I was playing at like a club or a theater, that wouldn't have happened.
And it was so enjoyable that like two and a half hours went by and I was like, Oh, maybe we should wrap this up. Like,
[00:27:41] Miko: Ha ha ha
[00:27:43] Michaela: and then the next night was in Pennsylvania and everyone was so quiet And they were like, we're actually like known for being really quiet. And also it was like an older audience, they were like, we're also old. so interesting, just recognizing that it's a dynamic. you set the tone and you are, the leader in that relationship, but it's completely a relationship.
[00:28:06] Miko: Absolutely. And to speak to, like you said, the difference between the two audiences. I had to really think about Work on the quiet audience, you know, I had to really like not take that personal like Oh Miko You didn't do a good job. it didn't resonate with them. No, you have all kinds of listeners and this is the way they listen and they wait for their applause at the end, They're not hooting and hollering all through your show This is just a different audience and it's not a reflection on you, you know so I've evolved as far as the different types of audiences I get to play for and that came through experience and I would have the quietest, the staunchest, most reserved audience member come up to me at the end.
And say, you made me cry. I'm like, did I, I didn't see it. You were just out, you know, like, but they're like, you know, so you just never know. You know? So I, I learned to not take that on anymore.
[00:29:03] Aaron: Yeah. And that can be feedback loop if you're on stage. If you start thinking that, then it starts to spiral and really just put those glasses on and they're thick and everything just starts feeding that narrative.
[00:29:13] Miko: Yeah,
[00:29:13] Michaela: Yeah. years ago, I started playing music at bars, like I would play three hour country bar gigs, in New York City, and I would just learn a bunch of country covers and so everyone's rowdy and whatever.
And like, drinking was always involved. that was a way to kind of lower inhibitions and detach a little bit. And over time, from like going on tour and getting. Opening spots where you're just out there for 30 minutes and the people don't know you. And I started changing the way that I was performing of, I wanted to start playing more story songs and tell more stories.
And also I just was growing up. So I was experiencing more in life that was informing my music and making me want to tell more emotional stories rather than good time honky tonk songs. and I had a shift for myself. Because I would notice I wasn't really enjoying being on stage because I would be so nervous and be trying to read everyone in the audience like, do they hate me?
They just looked at their phone. Did they dislike this? They're leaving. Are they leaving? They're leaving because they dislike me. And it was driving me so crazy that I was like, I need like a mantra or some sort of like intention or prayer before I go out on stage. And I started saying to myself okay.
Why am I going out on stage? I'm going out there to offer love through my stories and songs to anyone who is willing and wanting to receive it. anybody who's not, That's okay.
it changed so much for me that I was like, Oh wow, this feels so good because maybe it's only a handful of people that I'm meant to deliver to.
And that's okay.
[00:30:50] Miko: Absolutely. And I do the same thing now. I don't attach myself or ownership of my voice. I consider myself a vessel, like I'm being used. So there's no, ownership of how it turns out. I'm just, before I go, I ask to be used in whatever way I'm supposed to be. And that's it. I do it for my musicians and everything.
When we do our little circle,
I'm like, you know, use their hands, use their voices, use their instruments, allow us to be the vessel for whatever light is to be shown I'm not attaching my, abilities to the performance or to the show. I'm like, I'm here, I'm showing up. With the gifts and just use them, however they're supposed to play out.
[00:31:30] Michaela: Yeah. That's beautiful. Did you feel a big difference from like, we're referring to like career 1. 0 versus career 2. 0 of your like attachment to the outcomes when you're on stage or even like the business ambition side, has there been a difference for you after living such a full life in between the two times?
[00:31:52] Miko: Absolutely. I'm not holding the reins tight.
I'm holding them cause I'm supposed to hold them, I'm not gripping so tightly. I'm not looking for this pie in the sky that I used to be really dreaming about. I'm not assigning myself to fame and fortune anymore. I'm just assigning myself to my own legacy of what I want to leave out in the world.
That's the only assignment.
[00:32:15] Michaela: I've been thinking about this a lot because we kind of have a premise on this podcast that we don't like to talk to people who are early in their career because we think of this podcast as like a service to our community for helpful insight into how to last in this career, how to build a full good life and be mentally and emotionally healthy and connected to your creativity in an industry that's really challenging and we have really recognized the conversations are so different with people who are, on their first record deal And I'm so careful because I'm not, against youth, we just change. And I don't think it's sad to feel like you're, letting go of dreams.
It's not really letting go of dreams. I was just on my flight this weekend. This woman was, saw my guitar and was asking me about my music and stuff. And she was like, what's your like, big dream venue? And I was like, I don't really think in that way anymore. I used to have those.
ideas of my dream is to get to headline the Ryman or, play the main stage at some festival. And I was like, I genuinely don't think like that anymore. I don't think that's sad. I'm actually really grateful and I didn't really notice it until she asked me that.
I was like, I don't think I've noticed that until this moment And again, this is like every day is a different day. So like other days I might feel a struggle or, sadness or whatever, but it felt like a shift of like, it's honestly really beautiful to play someone's living room.
It's really beautiful to, get to play a really awesome rock club with sound or a really beautiful theater. But like, I don't have these benchmarks anymore of like, but if I play that place, that means I've made
[00:34:01] Miko: Yeah. Same here. I same.
[00:34:04] Michaela: I don't think that's like a giving up. I think that's like a beautiful, really recognizing I'm into being on my path,
[00:34:12] Miko: Exactly. when I first started, I wanted to be on the Grand Ole Opry. That was like my pinnacle in the rhyming. Pinnacle places, right? I didn't plan on coming back to music. I wasn't doing any of that. Now I've played both those places they weren't inconsequential. Don't get me wrong.
very grateful to have those opportunities, but they didn't have the impact that They would have had for me in my twenties. It was just another beautiful space to be in living out my so called dream. And they happened without any effort of me trying to make them happen.
that reaffirmed me not trying to navigate and steer the ship and allow the ship to float and just see where it's going to go. Cause it went there and I didn't see it coming. And who knows where else it's going to go. But me trying to steer, I'm in my own way. And I just don't want to be in the way I want to look up and have all the surprises or the non surprises.
And just be, it's all about just being for me now showing up where they tell me to show up and just be in that portal.
[00:35:17] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. My thinking on this has been like, as we spend more hours in this career, we realize that it's most of the hours are mundane and that's really what the whole thing is. Yeah.
[00:35:32] Miko: Oh my gosh,
you just like, it was like ding, ding, ding.
Oh my gosh. It was, the job is not what I envisioned it and dreamed it up to be. in my youth, I painted this glorious painting of what being involved in doing music for a living would look like. And it is not that, but the payoff, the absolute payoff is the stage and the people.
when you drive in six hours and then your sound checking at one shows at eight, you're just hanging around this place for hours and getting that catering. That's not what you asked for. And all the things. All the things. And then, the long haul that it takes to bring the music to the people.
The payoff is that actual moment. Present, on a stage. That's it.
All the other stuff is like, wah, wah. But,
[00:36:24] Aaron: Exactly. But also, that payoff is not a finish line. There's this
finish line fallacy in this career that it's like, once I get to this, once I play the Ryman, once I play the Opry like, I'm there. And it's like, that finish line is not there. we've all spent days, months in a van, a lot of the time, I mean, just related to the five, like a lot of the time you're driving through Fresno and like every now and then you get to, pass through grants pass and it's beautiful and you're heading into Oregon.
You're like, wow, look at these mountains, and then you're in the flat again and it's just, you're just passing by and sometimes it's beautiful. A lot of times it's boring and slow and you wish it was something else,
[00:36:58] Michaela: with lots of McDonald's, lots of loves.
[00:37:02] Aaron: Mary Chapin Carpenter was a guest on this and she was such a remarkable guest. She was so just shared so much wisdom. She will occasionally email me different things pertaining to these types of conversations.
[00:37:14] Michaela: And she sent me this interview with Anne Lamott about creativity and said, I think you might enjoy this. And I read it Anne Lamott the author talks about how she's also a writing teacher and she tells people you cannot focus on getting published. That cannot be the finish line.
You think that, Oh, that celebration, that, fame, fortune, whatever. Like if that's what this is about for you, you can't do it. You have to be about the process. because expectations are resentments under construction. I was like, Whoa.
[00:37:48] Miko: That was a bullseye right there. So true. It's So true. I don't have any expectations now. I'm in my early fifties, and it looks a whole lot different than my twenties. It just does, cause I've lived, and I've lived some little hard little places at times, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, gone down some wrong paths.
Those paths taught me lessons I'm grateful to be alive today because some of those paths that I went down, I could not be here doing music easily, but I had grace, I had mercy on my side and there's this thing I'm supposed to be doing and I'm figuring it out as I go. But definitely wisdom and maturity and life's lessons got me to where I don't carry.
All that baggage of expectations anymore. If I die today, leave this podcast and go, something happened to me. I've done what I've have done, that was it. And I'm happy with that. I'm happy with. whatever the cutoff is going to be.
[00:38:47] Michaela: I'm happy with it. I'm curious if you feel comfortable talking about how have you evolved in your relationship to the things that society and the country music industry has set as prohibitors?
I Think of just like the ways that I've felt like very difficult to be a woman and now experiencing being a mother in the music industry and the things that you feel are like marks against you when you're being considered by a promoter or a booking agent or radio, whoever the gatekeepers are have you had a relationship to What that's been like for you and your feelings towards it the injustice and how you've grappled with that and grown and not let that prohibit you even though there's evidence of the ways that it does do that.
[00:39:35] Miko: I will say that I was fortunate and I do mean this as being really fortunate to have grown up black and to have grown up as a woman. To have that time from my birth to have to deal with roadblocks, obstacles, All my life. So when I get into this industry, I had high hopes and I was idealistic.
And I thought, Hey, you good. They're going to love it. Boom. That's it. Well, It doesn't work that way. The music industry is quite cunning and quite small. so I had to look outside of that to fulfill my artistry. And so there's gatekeeping going on every day. Right now, there's so many artists out there that are just great, outstanding.
They should be like at the top of the charts, but they're not because of woman or person of color or just marginalized artists or just not in the end crowd. I started to look at the crowd as somebody that wants to be in with me. that take on it. Put the gatekeepers in the background for me because whoever I'm supposed to be touching, they're going to find me.
and we're going to have that connection. So that keeps everything from getting too big for me mentally. I can't get overwhelmed by the business and cause I'm not a business person. I'm an artist. So I'm not going to let the business side of things really overwhelm me. Like I'm going to Canada tomorrow.
I've never been to Canada. I told you how old I am. I've never been to Canada. I lived in Flint, which you could go to Toronto in like an hour.
I've never been. And so for me, it's about that. I'm like, Ooh, you're playing Canada for his first time in your life. take that experience.
And so I, I make things really small for me It just takes all that bigness away.
[00:41:21] Michaela: Yeah. I love that a lot.
[00:41:23] Aaron: being aware of what's right here. You know, We
had a conversation with Elliot Bronson about that, about like, the shadow side of ambition, it can be beneficial to look at the horizon that's far away and see everything that lies in front of you and the possibility of that.
But like, So, you the detriment of losing what is right here within your grasps and being able to touch that and just the power and the hopefulness that you have around that situation.
[00:41:45] Miko: absolutely. It's so helpful And it's fuzzy anyway. When you look at the horizon, you can't really see. why stay looking out there when all this stuff, like these glasses make me able to see up close.
Why not look right here because there's so much going on right here. That's never happened before. So slow that moment down and take it in and really appreciate it for what it is This is a first for you slow that moment down.
[00:42:10] Aaron: Yeah. also celebrate the wins, it can so easy to be like, okay, yeah, next, okay, yeah, I'm going to Canada. Okay. Next, hurdle,
Next hurdle, It's like, slow it down, be here for a second.
[00:42:19] Michaela: And it's like, it's keeping your hand on like wonder, which is so essential to be a creative artist. But we can, I think also because of the age we live in, the access we have to what everybody else is doing at any given moment, it can be so easy to lose the wonder of Wow, I get to go to Canada for the first time.
It'd be easy to be like, that's five year old over there has been all over the world a million times. And it's like, wait a second. No, we want to hold on to what, right here in front of us. And I think children are such an incredible reminder of that to watch a child be like, Oh, they're seeing the ocean for the first time.
this is mind blowing.
[00:42:58] Miko: Yes.
[00:42:59] Michaela: I think as we get older, we have to fight to keep that wonder. And a really beautiful, exciting feeling when you can still have that.
[00:43:08] Miko: Absolutely. I appreciate it greatly. I appreciate the fact I'm not looking for the pie in the sky. If the pie comes, then it comes, but it's not my goal. That's not the finish line. I'm just traveling. I got my little bag and I'm just like, where are we going? And I'm just looking around at all the places and things and, the people that I need and just slowing it all down and journaling about it to where I can remember my memories and. I've really made my world pretty small, even though I'm this little fish in this big pond. still feels very good for me personally.
[00:43:41] Michaela: I love all of that Wow
[00:43:43] Aaron: it's a beautiful place to kind of put a bow on our conversation, too.
[00:43:47] Michaela: Yeah. Thank you so much
[00:43:49] Miko: You guys
have an amazing day.
Take care. Oh, you told me to