Rhett Miller is the lead singer for The Old 97's, a solo artist, a podcast host (Wheels Off, with almost 200 episodes), an author and a mental health advocate who has released records via labels such as Elektra, ATO and Verve, worked with artists such as Jon Brion, Rosanne Cash, The Decemberists, and Tori Amos, and fronted The Old 97's for over 30 years. We talk about the difference between feeling deserving and entitlement, navigating envy traps, diversification for creative pursuits and financial fear, authenticity and a whole lot more.
Rhett Miller is the lead singer for The Old 97's, a solo artist, a podcast host (Wheels Off, with almost 200 episodes), an author and a mental health advocate who has released records via labels such as Elektra, ATO and Verve, worked with artists such as Jon Brion, Rosanne Cash, The Decemberists, and Tori Amos, and fronted The Old 97's for over 30 years. We talk about the difference between feeling deserving and entitlement, navigating envy traps, diversification for creative pursuits and financial fear, authenticity and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:08] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to today's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne, and this is the second year of our podcast. We're so happy to still be here and thankful you're here with us listening.
[00:00:20] Aaron: Yeah, because without you guys here, we wouldn't have a show.
So thank you for returning. Thank you for taking a chance on us if it's your first time. We have a couple asks of you as our audience to keep this show moving down the road. The Quickest and easiest would be to please subscribe or follow on your listening or viewing platform of choice. The second thing There are two ways to Financially continue to produce a show like ours. One is to sell ads and one is to reach out to your community. We don't want to interrupt our conversations and try to sell you a Casper mattress or some kind of sports green beverage. So with that, we've started a Patrion community and over there you get advanced notice of our guests so you can have your questions answered directly.
There is community of other creatives. So we can help go deeper into what we talk about on these shows. there is the opportunity to work with Michaela and I one on one in a either songwriting or production capacity to learn more about doing that for yourself. And then there's just the general goodwill of supporting this show.
For the cost of about a coffee a month. So if you're interested in that, there's a link below in the show notes.
[00:01:27] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on this podcast that we think sets us apart is that we're not music journalists. We are working musicians ourselves. And instead of approaching this like interviews, we think of them as conversations that we're having with friends and people we admire.
We're sitting around the table talking about the honest realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art.
[00:01:52] Aaron: Yeah. And like it or not, one of those realities is that most of this is completely out of our control. And so we like to focus this conversation on what is within our control.
So usually it ends up being our mindsets our habits. And we've boiled that all down to. The underlying question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity And today, we got to ask that question of the multifaceted Rhett Miller.
[00:02:17] Michaela: Rhett Miller is such an impressive person to me. He is a singer songwriter, the lead singer of Old 97's, But he has diversified in so many ways. He has a podcast, he has a sub stack. He's a published author of children's books of nonfiction. He's an advocate for mental health, for cystic fibrosis.
He has toured or collaborated or worked with Decembrists, Roseanne Cash, Tori Amos. He has had a long and continually evolving career in the arts.
[00:02:49] Aaron: he also has his own podcast called wheels off, which is amazing. Michaela has been guest on that a little, plug, but with that we just dive right in and there's not a lot of fat in this episode.
It's a really great conversation. We don't necessarily touch so much on how he fills his other 22 hours, despite having such a varied, list of things that he does. But with that, he said that varied list, there's some fear that inspired him to diversify so much.
And that's just, Evidence of how open Rhett was and the vulnerability that he brought to this conversation and the wisdom and the experience and the humor and all of that. So we're not going to keep you from that without further ado. Here is our conversation with Rhett Miller.
How long have you had your podcast?
[00:03:33] Rhett: I'm going to be hitting episode 200 any Oh wow. Okay.
it probably in 19. God, I can't believe it's been
[00:03:41] Michaela: Wow.
Whoa. what's your pace?
[00:03:44] Rhett: It was weekly. And then it pretty quickly, I realized every two weeks was enough.
[00:03:49] Michaela: we're at weekly still, but we take, two months off. Yeah. We start in March.
[00:03:55] Aaron: I decided to do like a season
thing,
[00:03:56] Rhett: It seems like it's going really well. People really love it. It seems like it's a
[00:04:01] Aaron: Yeah.
Thank
you. Thanks.
Yeah. It kind of, started quickly,
had the idea around Christmas time in 2022. And then given that we're talking to musicians about like how to Made this whole thing sustainable. I was like when did we launch it? And I was like might as well launch it around south by, that's like everybody seems to start traveling more in the middle of March.
So let's start then. And then we had the even crazier idea of starting with five episodes and not just one
[00:04:27] Rhett: and then the goal was just to see it through weekly until the end of the year. And here we are in the second year and it's it's still kicking.
[00:04:35] Michaela: Yeah. We, haven't figured out yet how to make money off of
it.
[00:04:39] Rhett: Same. I think I've made 100 in five years.
[00:04:43] Michaela: But, and people like probably think we're crazy, We're just like, we're going to do it until it feels like a burden because Even on days when we're just like, Oh man, we're tired and we need a break or whatever. After the conversation ends, like every single time we're like, that was so
great. And we feel like nourished. And we have a young child and so we're not out all the time. And such a wonderful way to connect and connect in the way that we want to have, not just like small talk at the bar and reciting our tour schedules and like really talking about real stuff.
Which not everybody's comfortable with, but if you're on the podcast, you're expected to.
Yeah,
I'm assuming you're at your home studio in the Hudson Valley.
[00:05:24] Rhett: It's really a home office
[00:05:26] Michaela: Okay.
[00:05:26] Rhett: I do record stuff in here. I'm not great. I've got logic and I keep telling myself I'm gonna learn how to master it Or even it, but I've used it enough when I get asked to write for stuff for movies, I can give them demos that are better than iPhone demos, but they're not great.
It's nothing releasable coming out of this room.
[00:05:45] Michaela: was,
[00:05:45] Rhett: room looks incredible.
[00:05:46] Aaron: Oh, thanks. Here, I'll give you a little look around. It's,
[00:05:49] Rhett: Mike's on
[00:05:49] Aaron: Yeah, Nice
and then got
a couple ISO booths, too.
[00:05:53] Rhett: Dude.
[00:05:54] Aaron: Our house is 40 feet that way. And, my studio was in the basement. And then Michaela got pregnant with our daughter and drums are my first instrument.
I was like, this is
not going to work.
[00:06:03] Michaela: So Aaron's dad's a contractor and luckily he was willing to come down and they built the studio from the ground up on their
own. So That's great.
yeah, it's been a quality of life increase. We're in a residential neighborhood in Nashville and dream of getting to move someplace with more land.
But for now we're like, this is very helpful.
[00:06:21] Aaron: actually constantly looking at the Hudson Valley. Ooh, what about there? Ooh, what about there?
And it's
[00:06:25] Rhett: not recommend it more highly and
[00:06:27] Aaron: yeah.
[00:06:28] Rhett: youngest is graduating high school
But both of our kids went to
[00:06:31] Aaron: Wow.
[00:06:31] Rhett: high school
good people I think
[00:06:34] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:06:36] Rhett: they are Although they constantly roast me. They can't stop roasting me,
[00:06:40] Aaron: Amazing. Yeah. we lived in the city for 11 years or so and, miss it. We don't miss the grind of living in the
city.
Which is why we keep looking at that. And we have so many friends up, around you northward and on the other side of the
river and all. yeah.
[00:06:55] Rhett: having to have one of those razor scooters just all this stuff folks that will let their kids go at such a young age on the subway by themselves, which is great giving
[00:07:04] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:07:05] Rhett: Freedom and responsibility, seemed like it was going to be a lot.
we have three acres
[00:07:10] Michaela: Amazing.
[00:07:11] Rhett: our kids were so glad when they got their licenses we were all so glad when they
[00:07:15] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:07:15] Rhett: depend on us for all that, because they both did lots of sports and they have lots of friends and it's been great. And I'm gone a lot. I'm actually now excited to get back into the city more.
my daughter's going to be attending Parsons.
what did you go
[00:07:27] Michaela: That's where we both went there. So
[00:07:28] Aaron:
Yeah, it's a really cool place when we were there. It we went to the jazz school.
So the jazz school was separate from Manus, which was like the classical conservatory. And my understanding is that they've
now combined.
[00:07:41] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:07:41] Aaron: which is so smart.
[00:07:42] Michaela: I went to a boarding school, like an art school for the last couple of years of high school. And at that point there was, music and theater and dance and creative writing and visual art. And having all of that mixed together was so inspiring. And just like energizing.
[00:07:58] Aaron: then going to the new school and the jazz school was where the performing arts school is now on 13th street and Maness was like in the eighties on the upper west side. And it was just like, there was no crossover anywhere. And it just, it made no Sense.
[00:08:11] Michaela: it was pretty, yeah, it felt very like.
So focused on one thing is great for some people, but I ended up adding the new school had this great program where you could go to school for five years and get a B. A. And a B. F. A. And I did that because I've started to feel like I hated
music. And so I added a B. A. And went to Eugene Lang and studied sociology in American history.
And that, You have expanded everything for me, which is a great segue because I wanted to talk about we talk about diversifying a lot on this podcast we talked to people about evolving through this career, whether it's out of necessity or just pure interest. And you have my like dream life of being a published author and nonfiction essays and children's books, which we have and teaching at a university eventually and hosting workshops.
Can you talk about your evolution with that and what that's been like and how intentional was that, or if it's just been as it's come.
[00:09:12] Rhett: first of all, be careful what you wish for because this dream life is it's built on hustle. It's built on fear in a lot of ways.
[00:09:20] Michaela:
[00:09:20] Rhett: Our son has been at University of Vermont for a couple of years now he also was able to get some good assistance from them, but it's still, it's just, system in the United States is broken, as is the health care system, in my family, we're bearing the brunt of both of those things as self employed, my wife is an independent contractor, she, did other stuff, but now she works with her brother at his company, which sells solar in the Hudson Valley.
So
[00:09:46] Michaela: Cool. salesperson, so she's on the right side of history, and she's doing something good. But it's still sales, and you're living and dying by the whims of these customers. Ugh. In, our job it's, a similar thing, where you never exactly know what it's gonna be. And fortunately, I can.
[00:10:04] Rhett: I've got booking agents where I can look ahead and say, Okay this month I'm going to earn this much, at least. And spin it out through the year just make sure that you can at least cover the basics. the basics get bigger now that we have two kids in the fall in college.
I don't want to go into massive debt. I don't want them to go into massive debt. I just kept trying to think of what else can I do. I don't know if you can hear, but I've been struggling with my voice lately. In fact, yesterday I was at incredible laryngologist who stuck a camera through my nostril into my throat and filmed me humming and talking and doing all the things and Figured out that I've got a and this is also you're getting all these exclusives I did text my band this last night, I've got a cyst on one vocal cord and a node on the other
[00:10:50] Aaron: Oh no.
[00:10:51] Rhett: a 80 percent chance that I'll be able to deal with those through rehab and exercises and But there's a 20 percent chance I'll have to get surgery that will shut me down for a couple of months at least, and terrifying.
So I just don't like the idea of all my eggs being in the basket of standing on stage screaming night after night, which I do 150, 200 plus nights a year. And the old 97s play big shows, which is great, but I make less money than I do playing smaller solo shows because of the overhead difference.
[00:11:24] Michaela: So whenever the old 97s aren't on a three week long tour, I'm doing weekends driving myself, which is in itself is so exhausting.
[00:11:32] Rhett: You drive six to 10 hours and then load in, do a sound check, load in the merch, play the gig, go out to the merch table, sign for an hour, pose for pictures, talk, which is even harder on the voice, then
[00:11:43] Michaela: Yep.
[00:11:44] Rhett: Check
[00:11:44] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:11:44] Rhett: wake up early, do it again. Y'all Know. It's a lot, and so the idea of having something else to supplement that, or maybe eventually replace that, appealed to me.
When my kids were younger, I thought maybe writing children's books. I've discovered that writing kids books is only in the very rarest of cases a way to get Rich.
And I've been very lucky. I got a great publisher, Little Brown publishes my books. I got a great illustrator, Dan Santat, who had already won the Caldecott when we started working together.
And since then he's won the National Book Award, and he's up for some other crazy award right now. And so Dan is at the top of his field. and he's made a good career out of doing that, but He should. He's one of the best in the world at doing what he does, and I don't feel like music has that anymore, maybe.
You can be one of the best people in the world at music, and I know people that I consider some of the best people in the world at it, and you can still be just living so month to month and terrified. I've always hustled, and I continue to do the jobs that you don't know about, in addition to the kids books and teaching that I've done, and the songwriting retreats and seminars, The podcast, which isn't really a moneymaking venture.
I've also been working for a few years with a couple of other writers on trying to create television content, which again, is such a long shot. it's a shot that if it lands, it would be really great. And
Projects I've been working on are only ones that I'm, drawn to that I think I bring something to the table.
And if one of those were to land, that would be great. It's, like with every record you put out. I don't know if you guys have this feeling, but with every record, of you thinks maybe this is going to be the record. Maybe this will be the one where some song lands on a, soundtrack, or maybe it's the song that connects.
nowadays, maybe somehow it gets picked up on TikTok, even though I don't even have the app on my phone. Maybe
[00:13:34] Michaela: Yep. My kids do like to tell me there's an old song of mine from a 20 year old album, The Instigator. They're like, oh, dad, one of your songs is on TikTok. It's a song called This Is What I Do.
[00:13:45] Rhett: And the song is this is what I do. And they're like, yeah, so there'll be like some plumber with plumber's crack under a sink. And he's teaching you how to fix the sink. And then your song, This Is What I Do is playing. That's something.
[00:14:01] Aaron: that the way TikTok pays I'll put that in air quotes, is not based on the number of views is based on the number of videos. if your song is in one video that gets. 8 million views you only get paid for one placement But if your song is in 8 million videos that get one view each you get paid way more money
So
the whole infrastructure there is based on going viral.
Yeah, it's so wild
[00:14:28] Rhett: So now do I need to Really and start making 8 million videos of
[00:14:32] Aaron: but be careful because we have a lot of friends and i'm sure you do as well here in town that have been Signed to rounder records And all of that through Concord and all that is administered. Tied to Universal. And so when Universal and TikTok got in a fight and Universal pulled all their music off of TikTok, all of a sudden, all of our
friends that were begrudgingly got on TikTok were like, fine, this isn't us, but we'll do it.
All of a sudden they had all of these videos on there that were just completely silent because Universal pulled all the music.
[00:14:59] Michaela: I think they actually just came to a deal. I, saw, but It's interesting to note that it's like how fragile the ways in which we can get our music out into the world how fragile they all are.
So you're just like, I want to make music. Oh, but now I have to. Get everything on MySpace. Oh, that's done. Now I have to get everything on. Oh, no. Tell people don't listen on Spotify. Buy the records. Now, I need to get placements on playlists on Spotify and to ask everyone to stream. Oh, now I need to be on Instagram.
Okay. It's like your head is spinning from how many new things and platforms you have to learn and put your energy and time into before it. Goes away. Like I'm not on Tik TOK and I'm always like, maybe I'll get on Tik TOK. And then I keep seeing these things in the news about the government's going to ban it.
And I'm like, do I want to get on Tik TOK? So at the same time, what you were just talking about, the perpetual irrational hope that you
have to keep going and think Maybe this record, things will change and in reality, maybe it's just going to be a little bit of a bump, but like with each new record that you put out, even if it isn't a big splash, it opens the door to new experiences, potentially new revenue sources, and that, I think I'm in a bit of a place where I'm, a little unfortunate to say, but I'm fully jaded on the music industry. I think the music industry is Trash to be honest and full of really toxic people I used to think oh if you work hard enough and you just keep going and don't give up It will work out And now i'm like no
[00:16:39] Rhett: Yeah. I really appreciate how outspoken you've been about that. I feel like, it's really valuable for people say it, even though maybe for you at times you feel like, Oh, God, you're putting yourself out there, opening yourself up to whatever negative feedback you might, because of the world, do get.
But really brave and it's really useful. And I'm glad you do it. It's, true. It's freaking tough out there, especially for young kids. I'm 53 years old. And so I've watched, from my, earliest childhood, I've watched, eight track cassettes. And then I remember, oh my God, cassettes are so cool.
You know the all of the different media and then the CD boom was you know What gave the old 97s our brief run on Elektra records because that whole? Business model in the 90s the late 80s into the early aughts was built around people Rebuilding their catalogs buying the CDs of white album or whatever that they had once owned on a track or something And so all
that
Gave the 97s three studio albums from Elektra and me one solo album, which is Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars of marketing, even though we never had a hit to this day.
big part of our audience was created by that push that we got via the
old
Model, which admittedly was flawed and broken and stupid and deserved to die. But what came in its wake was this new world of God only knows what this is. I don't know. We, it's
easier To get music in people's ears.
And music is so devalued. I always think about, When you bring up the idea of hoping for this moment, I
always think about the Nick Lowe mailbox. which was Nick Lowe in his bathrobe going out to his mailbox, not realizing that his song, Peace, Love and Understanding, had been covered on the Bodyguard soundtrack, which had just become the biggest selling soundtrack in history.
And he goes out to his mailbox, and there's a check from his publisher for 1 million.
[00:18:33] Michaela: Oh my god. it was coming. He's just
[00:18:35] Rhett: there
Million dollar check. And I just feel like, did I have to hear that story? Because
[00:18:44] Aaron: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:18:46] Rhett: now I know that's on the table.
[00:18:48] Michaela: I want to add to jadedness of I still am in this business because I love music. I saw Nico Case on, Kayamo do like a In the Round with Mary Gauche and Patti
Griffin and they were
talking about this stuff and Nico Case was like, listen, I love music.
I hate the music business. for me speaking out about things having these types of conversations, sharing like, Oh, someone looks at Rhett Miller and is Holy shit, he's so successful. And then hearing all of the work that you're doing behind the scenes to make sure that you are living good life and providing for your family and also valuing your family.
I think it's really important. And yeah, At the risk of sounding super cheesy, whenever I think about why are you still in the music business if it's so difficult? Or if you think there's things that need to change and can't stop talking about it even though people don't want you to?
Or why do you have kids if it's so hard in America and you're constantly talking about how terrible policies are for families in America? And the risk of sounding cheesy is it's love. It's totally love. People have families, no matter how hard it is, because they want that experience of love. People keep playing music, no matter how hard it is, because they love the experience of playing music.
So I feel like it just helps all of us. It helps me learning about your journey and helps me like, stay grounded in that and say, okay, maybe this isn't going to look like the way I dreamed, but if I, do stay in it and do it the way that I want to, I might be able to find like really great pockets and things that I really can hold onto that love of all of this, which can be hard sometimes.
Sometimes. There's a nobility in it. Not saying, that I'm a hero. if you guys want
[00:20:37] Rhett: that, sure, that's fine. no, Ibecause it's easy to feel like what we do is inherently selfish or narcissistic or I dated a girl once that was, she, would tell me those things all the time and they landed with me in a way that was unhealthy because the negative voices in my head were like, yep, see, told you.
but I do something. It's really fundamental to our humanity. need music. I remember David Bowie, who I always really loved. Bowie had an interview in Rolling Stone, I remember, standing in an airport in 2001, reading a Rolling Stone, a quick hit with Bowie. And they were asking him about the looming digital revolution.
And it was the era of Napster people were seeing the writing on the wall that it was all going to fall apart. And Bowie was really clear about it. He said, Oh yeah, this is all ending. So he said that brass ring that everybody reaching for is going to be gone very soon.
There will be no more lottery aspect. I'm putting words in his mouth, but this was the essence of it. There'll be no more lottery aspect to the music industry. And so what will be left. Will be the people who can't help but do it who have no choice but do it because it's the only thing They know and it's what they love and at the time I felt like that was such a desolate take But now I look back on it and think well, first of all, he was right and prescient But also there's something really beautiful about that.
I think that we all are coming to it with good intentions Not all I think there's still grossness, course, but
[00:22:06] Aaron: Yeah, I think that is really, there's so much hope in there and some beauty and some like returning to, the idea of the musician and following a calling it plays into this thing when we have had these conversations with. Octogenarians or septuagenarians.
[00:22:22] Michaela: people in their seventies or eighties. Yeah.
[00:22:24] Aaron: way they speak about the career and my interpretation, it sounds more like they're in service.
[00:22:31] Rhett: Yeah.
[00:22:32] Aaron: The audience wants this, I have to do this. Versus people, That have come up in the 90s and later where it has that kind of Ring or like core belief of being self centered or for me.
I'm making this art for myself I'm saying that without judgment on either way It's just a real thing that I've noticed, people had a peak in the late 60s or in the early 70s or something like that Where they really solidified their career trajectory, then a way different outlook on things.
[00:23:00] Rhett: I do think that in the nineties and but there's a couple of names that I would love to drag through the mud as I make this observation, but I won't. there was a moment when that belief that everybody paid Whatever amount of money to get into this room tonight and they all better shut up because I'm gonna read this page out of my diary And I'm so important.
I don't have to earn their attention. I don't have to entertain them They're here because they know I'm brilliant and they're gonna whatever. It's that whole. Oh my god the sort of The narcissism that got rewarded at times throughout the history of art, but
[00:23:36] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:23:39] Rhett: those musicians that acted like that weren't really talented. I like Oasis. Those guys are assholes, and, certainly some, people that I came up with and I watched them succeed not only despite acting like that But a lot of times I felt because they acted like
[00:23:58] Michaela: of it. Yeah.
[00:24:00] Rhett: me out And I really thought is this what I should be doing and then I thought no because if I had to do that I would just find another job, I think we have to be careful.
I think it's our job to entertain. I think we do what we do in the service of the audience, I don't think it behooves us or does us any favors to try and predict what the audience might want and try
[00:24:20] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:24:21] Rhett: what's going to make them what Click, buy, whatever, calculation is the killer of art, but I do believe that if we see ourselves as being, like you said, in the service of the audience, I think that's a really beautiful place to be.
[00:24:35] Michaela: the whole like, is this selfish? Am I a narcissist idea? Because I like to share my thoughts and feelings and creations. I've thought about this a lot. ultimately the way that I feel more comfortable doing this. Is by really focusing on the fact that for me, sharing songs, I don't really feel like I'm an entertainer.
For me, I shifted into feeling like I'm a storyteller that shares through my songs or writing as an invitation for connection and vulnerability because I receive so much from people who listen to me or read my work in return. And to me what I love most in this life. Not getting applauded, that feels nice, but I really like the, oh man, I really loved your story and it made me feel this way because this happened in my life.
I feel like we have to individually come to terms with what our singular purpose is. sense of purpose and the thing that makes us feel good in this path. So have you had a similar cause you said your girlfriend who would use that as a,
[00:25:39] Rhett: Sorry.
[00:25:40] Michaela: insult. How did you grapple with that at all for yourself?
[00:25:44] Rhett: Yeah. Especially we were on Elektra, there were bands on the label that were making so much money Third Eye Blind, for instance, or whatever. I always use them as an example because they weren't nice and they weren't good so I don't feel bad throwing them under the bus is I guess my
But I remember thinking like what am I doing? If I'm not out here making mad Skrilla what is the point? And I just kept coming back to, you know, when I was young, I was really, freaked out about What's the, meaning of life?
What are we doing here? Are we killing time until we die? that's what hit me when I was young and had a pretty significant suicide attempt and I had a lot of depression and when I came through it, the thing that got me out of it was There is meaning in life. And for me, the meaning in life centered around music and writing songs and sharing songs and finding a community of musicians and then a larger community of music lovers who appreciated what we did.
I just, remember that in no small part music was the, main thing that saved my life. I've got people in my life that say, Oh, you deserve so much more. You deserve to win a Grammy. You deserve to make a million dollars. that verb to me is so fraught.
[00:27:02] Michaela: Same. I hate the word deserve.
[00:27:05] Rhett: it's so gross because Inevitably when you use it in a way to list off the things that you're not getting, ignoring the things that you are getting. I'm sitting in a room full of
[00:27:15] Michaela: Mm
[00:27:15] Rhett: guitars. I've got a sweet dog on a velvet couch I am in the lap of luxury.
I've got family that I love. I have safety. I won't diminish the idea that there are tens of thousands or however many people out there that believe in what I do and listen to my music Sign up for my sub stack. Oh, I left that off the list earlier of Jobs, I'm incredibly lucky there be more sure but if I was Elon Musk in my stupid brain, I'd probably be thinking there could be more, you
[00:27:46] Michaela: Oh Yeah,
Yeah,
[00:27:47] Rhett: Yeah, there's always more.
[00:27:48] Aaron: Yeah, it's the carrot on the stick. It's always going to be that far in front of you no matter
what.
Yeah. Gratitude is something that I used to, it used to repel me in a little way. It felt like two. Woo. Woo. New Agey. I was too like sheltered. I was also in a time where I was very strong believer that like vulnerability was weakness and all of that.
And as I get older and the more I lean into, gratitude, I, hear what you guys are saying about the word deserve and the ickiness of it, but it can be helpful in retrospect to give yourself permission. to experience the good things, to experience the good that comes because it's so easy to focus on all of the hardships, all the things you're not getting, all the things that you're lacking to look back retrospectively and be like, no, I, deserve this tour.
I deserve These accolades I deserve, in that sense, I find it very helpful and very like motivating than looking forward and like to,
keep going. Yeah.
[00:28:45] Rhett: such a good point, Michaela. You and I need to hear that.
[00:28:48] Michaela: Yeah I was like, an insight into our personal
life is
we've been together 17 years and the last, I don't know, seven years, Aaron's had a pretty big shift in his life of his pursuits of expansion and mindfulness it's really incredible to witness someone else's life, especially starting at such a young age.
And how I see in practice, his mindsets and his view of the world has dramatically changed. And some days it feels like, yeah I'm with you on this. And other days it feels like he's like dragging me like,
Michaela,
timelines and paths, but to that, I do think the word deserve, I think the way that you and I write.
We're thinking of it is this feeling like, Oh, somebody's on TV, like nobody deserves that more than them because they're the hardest working or I deserve to get this big tour because I think whatever it is, versus I deserve safety good experiences and love and all this stuff I remember talking to someone years ago who was like a yogi and I said something about like my feeling limited and letting myself want things.
And I was like, who am I to think that I should have these things? And I remember she was just like, Oh, Michaela, because we all deserve to have
them
that's the difference, I think, in the way of thinking about that word.
[00:30:13] Aaron: Yeah, it's like a very, knife's edge if you're hiking and
you're,
there's a cliff on either side if we're all striving for I guess in a way that like humble gratitude and be like, no, I deserve this on one side is falling into entitlement and it's no, I deserve this.
I deserve this. I deserve this. And then falling the other way is Oh, you like me? Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Great. Okay. And it's like sheepish, this like really thin bit of trail to navigate.
[00:30:39] Rhett: Maybe it's that we should, accept that we deserve the things that we have worked hard for, but go of the idea that we deserve all those things we haven't got.
[00:30:47] Aaron: It's funny, my guitar player, Ken, in the old 97s he's the oldest in the band. In fact, he's already in his 60s, which freaks me out.
[00:30:56] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:30:56] Rhett: what are you doing to me? That is not cool, bro. he's, incredibly self confident he's, an East Texas boy. And nowadays, because we've gotten so far in our band that a lot of times when we do interviews or whatever, tend to ask about like, how does your band stay together?
Or the history, those historical kind of questions. We've
become
Artifact hopefully still relevant, but also an artifact.
He was telling a
story Had never really thought about before, not long before our band started, I had been like a teen folky, child prodigy in the Dallas music scene, where I was 16, 17, old, opening up for national punk rock bands, touring acts as like a folk singer.
he knew me because I, was very well known in Dallas at the time as a little teenage kid doing
that.and so he had come from East Texas where he was
Football star or whatever, super self confident. And so when we started playing together, he was telling this story about being amazed because when we would go into a room, he said that I would go over to him and say Oh man, I don't know where to stand.
I don't know who to talk to. They don't want me here. I feel so insecure. he'd be like, Are you kidding? You're like this famous rock star. What are you
so in his mind, he's the coolest person in every room into which he's walked. And he can't believe that I think I don't belong in any of these rooms.
And it's a good lesson. I don't know. Maybe it's, like you say, there's a knife's edge and the best place to land is in the middle of those two extremes. But yeah, it's taken me a long time to not feel like I don't belong in the room.
[00:32:29] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:32:31] Aaron: absolutely. something that I have to consistently work at still and, it's the difference between knowing it in my head and knowing it, like in my gut, I can
rationalize myself
out of a lot of different things. One thing somebody said to me that really, helped was, do not put anybody on a pedestal, including
yourself. And just like focusing on that, like me who I've always had self confidence issues and all of that but I noticed that there was like some subversive ways that I put myself on a pedestal that then made me feel like I wasn't supposed to be in rooms and all of that.
And it just like understanding like, Oh, we're all just standing here on the ground and we're all in this together
[00:33:07] Rhett: Hamm had a great quote, the actor, where he talked about his early days in St. Louis coming up in acting. And his mindset, and I can't even believe that was this way, I've tried to instill this in my own kids because I feel like it's too late for me in some ways, but his mindset was, if not me, who?
[00:33:26] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:33:26] Rhett: anybody else deserve it more than me? And I was thinking like, oh my god, I wish I could have that. How do you get that? And I do feel looking at my own kids, I feel like that they are carrying that into the world. They don't think of themselves as less than. I don't of themselves as greater than because it's like you were just saying.
Either one is gross. Either one is dangerous. the less than thing is such a trap. And I think musicians fall into it because we're so open, like we just so open to the world and the idea of being vulnerable is that these things are going to hit, these arrows will strike you, there's no shield.
[00:34:02] Michaela: I, think I'm curious how that's been for you because I feel like if you are someone who, again, a lot of musicians and creatives and sensitive people might have a mix of this challenge of feeling a sense of belonging and in my experience and observation Of the music industry and community is that's so heightened.
It's like high school on steroids, who's celebrated changes so quickly and who was like standing on the outside last year is now the homecoming queen this year. And next year they might be out again. And it's I've personally felt people.significantly change how they talk to me or treat me based on if I have a record that's buzzy or
[00:34:51] Rhett: Yeah.
[00:34:51] Michaela: and I've wondered how you have worked to reconcile that with yourself of how to sustain a sense of self worth, even when your career might not Be in the place in that exact moment where you want and that outside world might not treat you in a way that feels Aligned with what you hope
[00:35:11] Rhett: Boy, it's a daily, I would call it a struggle, but I don't feel like that's the right word. I feel like that's my job more than anything else is to just stay human and to not get caught in the trap of envy because I feel like of all the traps that might be the greatest one.
And, Grammy night. I feel like I want to barf. and I hate to say it like that it's embarrassing to admit it, honestly, because so many of my friends are there and I just, I've never sniffed it. It's never been even on the radar. And every time it comes up, the people in my family are saying like, you take me to the Grammys if you ever go?
And I'm thinking like, yeah, sure. I'll also take you to Buckingham palace if I ever go and I'll take you to Valhalla. Sure. I'll take you to all those places. Like, I'm not getting invited there and, I can look at those people that are, and just think why? I don't know. I just feel every time I get stuck in those, I have to look at my daughter, look at my dog, look at my wife, look at my son, look at my backyard whatever.
Just play my guitar. The things that are real. The things that are controllable, not that the people I just listed are controllable, but the the things that are right there in my, life, in front of me, those are the real things. And the other things are constructs. We're all gonna.
Live for this brief moment, and then we're going to die. And if, I can really find a way to fill my days with joy, and to not let the trap envy I don't know, self diminishment, I think is something big for me.
[00:36:46] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. The answer is what I come up with that day.
[00:36:52] Rhett: writing a substack where I talk about grappling with envy, which by the way, thank you, that's a good idea. Make a note. Feed the beast.
[00:37:01] Aaron: I think the answer to that question of what is going to help me return to stasis has to be variable because if it's the same thing every day, that same little shadow voice in your mind is going to be like, Oh, it's this thing again. This didn't work last time. It's not going to work this time.
So if, as you keep changing it and for me, one thing I've been trying to focus on is like, Just follow the path of least resistance like the simple question like does this light me up and then just do it and it could be like, taken up running again recently because it feels great,
or go and dig in the dirt or Just come sit in here and grab an instrument just play or whatever it might be for the day like fully just immerse myself In trying to be a three year old with our daughter like might be
[00:37:41] Michaela: first of all, thank you for being honest admitting that because I think Envy is a really hard thing to admit because there's so much shame in it and I think it's really helpful to talk about like You Yeah, I feel jealous sometimes when I see my friends or someone I don't know have something that I would like to have.
a therapist a long time ago told me because I remember I was like experiencing jealousy for the first time in my life in my early twenties and I was really struggling with it and I was like, I'm consumed with this jealousy of a friend at work and other, Singer songwriters in my sphere or whatever and I, for whatever reason, didn't feel like I had that emotion as a kid and my therapist was like, this is a human emotion.
This is an emotion that all humans have. So when it comes, sit with it. It's what you do with it. So then choose to let it go. I'm not always good at that. I have different phases in my life where I struggle even more.
and especially being in, in early parenthood I know cause I've seen you comment on stuff I've posted about of feeling like I've been punished for choosing to become a mother.
As a musician feeling like I've struggled with feelings of man if only I had waited to get pregnant when I was more successful, then I would have been protected from that. Or considering having a second child am I going to screw my career even more? and I still struggle with that on a daily basis.
But I've had this thought recently of, man, I don't want to be a victim to my career aspirations
anymore.
I don't want to feel like I'm going to sacrifice such a beautiful, expansive experience in life of having a family, because I think that transaction will get me what my ambitions tell me I'd like to experience.
[00:39:30] Rhett: there's no guarantee that it
[00:39:31] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:39:34] Rhett: so in the early aughts when my wife was pregnant She was pregnant with Max Erica we were looking around LA like where are we gonna live in?
Los Angeles cuz we had a big circle of friends there. There's a lot of professional opportunities for me there We just, everywhere we looked, nothing felt like home. It all felt like home base for a job. And when we came up to where we live now in the Hudson Valley, just felt like home. I knew that by, for me, moving from L.
A. where I had the Largo crowd and all of the movie people that I knew, like, all of of nowhere, where nobody knew anything about me, and I couldn't even fill up a frickin room within a hundred miles, that's not true, I can, in New York City I can, and that's just within a hundred miles.
But soI, knew that I was going to be giving up a lot of professional opportunities. And then, so during those years, the aughts, I had two little kids, my bandmates had little kids, and we just made a decision within our band. are going to be shorter. Our record's going to be a little further apart.
We're going to tour less. We're going to work less. It's going to cost us. It was a choice we made, and it was very intentional. And during those years, we watched some of our. peers, some of our friends, some of the people that we were peers with that we were not friends with, but we watched these people have careers that just exploded.
And I'm not saying ours would have our band name is weird. We've always been too loud or too country or whatever it is we are, but we certainly cost ourselves opportunities by working less, staying home more, living outside of L. A., Nashville, Manhattan. Those were choices we made and so during especially during those years when I would feel angry at the lack of success that I might be having I would look at that person that I was envying or begrudging or whatever and I would think Would I want to trade lives with them?
And the love that I'm surrounded by and I would think no I would not want to trade lives with them. You know what? I want to sell that many records Sure, of course what I want to play, Carnegie Hall every night. Sure,
We make choices that cost ourselves.
I remember when my daughter was about to get born, my wife went into labor early and I had a tour scheduled in Japan, like a short little tour. at the time I was doing really well in Japan, my first two solo records gone over very well in Japan to the point where I was like getting chased down the street by like throngs
[00:42:07] Aaron: my God.
[00:42:07] Rhett: Japanese girls,
[00:42:09] Aaron: Wow.
[00:42:10] Rhett: such a weird experience.
so that one trip to Japan, I had to cancel it last minute. I did not fly to Japan because I knew that if I did, I might miss the birth of my daughter. Japanese culture is such that if you cancel a tour last minute, it's considered an insult. I had a few more trips to Japan, But that was really the beginning of the end of my Japanese career.
would I trade Soleil, who's 18 last month and is graduating high school next month? Would I trade Soleil for a career in Japan? Even if I was playing it like live at Budokan? No. Never. In a million years. and these are the choices we make and whatever, at the end of my life, am I going to be bummed about Boudiccan or am I going to be grateful that I've got my daughter there with me, who I
[00:42:55] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:42:55] Rhett: anything in the world?
Obviously it's
soleil.
[00:42:58] Michaela: Yeah, I think the friction, It's even more because we live in a culture that doesn't celebrate those choices. We celebrate the big shows and the fame and the beauty of a family and a life at home is not easily bragged about on Instagram. One thing that I actually do love about social media these days is there is a growing number of for lack of a better term, influencers who are very honest about what they're doing.
What life really is like with young children. And I, think about that stuff all the time of if I'm not on tour, I'm like, what do I post online? my life is, my family. And some people are like, ew, stop. but I love it.
[00:43:41] Rhett: So I think you handle this well and I've always debated about this and I've talked to younger artists, basically like y'all who have kids. because I made the choice when my kids were little that I would never post them. Mm they were of age. I have, friends that their kids all the time.
I don't know that there is a right answer for one thing. And I do think maybe it depends on the level of interest. Because at a certain level, there's just crazies, there's gonna be freaking that follow you. don't know what the right solution is, chosen to include your whole family in your posts and stuff and celebrate it.
and now that I hear your reasoning behind that, makes me feel a lot more comfortable with the idea of allowing your kid to be in your feed.
[00:44:27] Michaela: Aaron is much more private than I am you know before Georgia was born. He said I don't want you to be posting her incessantly I made private account that's has to be approved, that's just for family and friends. Because sharing. And he knows that. So he's but I don't want some random people in
[00:44:49] Aaron: The backstory is we've shown up in like extreme northern Sweden to play a show. And somebody walks up to me and is your wedding was beautiful. And I'm like, whoa,
[00:45:00] Michaela: Yeah.
So this is something that we go back and forth on a lot. will post her name and I post stories about her. I try not to post a lot of photos of her
face and we'll put an emoji on her face or
whatever.
[00:45:14] Rhett: I don't know how not to because also my music that I've been writing
Yeah.
[00:45:21] Michaela: is informed by her now.
It's such a huge life change for me that I'm just like how would it not? And we don't have family support. in town like we don't have a nanny like a lot of times we're doing interviews with her in the sound booth
like she's
with us constantly
[00:45:38] Aaron: I think all of this ties back to one understanding that social media is a marketing tool period you know our case for what we
do
it can also be a great social connection tool if you were a Civilian quote unquote you're not somewhere where you're trying to sell some art that you make and so With that idea of it being a marketing tool as you mentioned earlier you realize that your approach to your career and your goal was to like Create connection and create a space that people can be open and real and so you do that by being yourself and being in integrity with yourself, which is sharing about your, family.
I think it would be felt if it was something that was like more. Yeah,
[00:46:19] Michaela: and I think it also goes to, getting straight with what we feel our purpose and intent is as artists because I have this conversation with other, songwriter friends in conversation with their management or whatever of what you should be posting about and how you post and building your brand.
If, we're talking about it, I'm like, I have like half as many followers as you. So maybe I'm not the one to be giving advice, but I don't know how to build a brand. I only know how to show up as myself. And maybe it would be better for my music career if I didn't use my music Instagram account to share my thoughts on different wars and political policies and everything.
But I can't. That's just not who I am and that's not how I'm going to show up. Other people are much more comfortable with that and maybe the industry rewards, but like you said, these are choices that we make for ourselves and we have to be okay with the consequences. it's, about being intentionally aligned with what feels comfortable for you.
[00:47:18] Rhett: But it's authentic. It is authentic and it feels authentic. that's, a whole other thing is the social media question is we're supposed to be good at writing songs, That's the thing we're supposed to be good at and maybe performing them or whatever.
Creating content and building an account with followers. it's, exhausting.
[00:47:35] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:47:36] Rhett: into Facebook in years. I can only do
[00:47:38] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:47:39] Rhett: now. And even the Instagram I can see that the tinter hooks are just so strong. Every time I log into, Oh I've got to announce my new wheels off.
And then an hour later, I realized that I've gone down this,
Yeah, you're watching some reel of some guy like tripping, walking out of his front door, slamming into his truck and you're like, how did I get
[00:47:57] Aaron: here? What am I the perfect way to cook eggs.
yeah,
[00:48:00] Rhett: I like that because Instagram is just Oh no, do it like this. And I'm like, oh really?
[00:48:05] Aaron: yeah.
Oh, that's so cool. there was a while where Instagram was incessantly trying to sell me like 900 sneakers. And I'm like, how did this come
about?
Yeah, it's time sick. Yeah, As painful and tedious and just icky feeling it can be. It does create a lot of opportunity where you can live in nowhere, Montana and create a music
career,
whereas in like the early aughts, without this, you did really have to be in the center where there was a large community.
[00:48:35] Michaela: everything. There's pros and cons to it. And it's just difficult when it takes so much energy to create your own healthy boundaries around it because it is literally designed to be addictive.
[00:48:46] Rhett: Yeah, and I feel your life or your day is a pie and it's eating up whatever chunk of your pie then it's taking away from the songwriting or I even wonder I remember when we started. I used to tell younger artists, the only way to do this is to get in the van say you're in Dallas like we were.
Drive to St. Louis, play there. Drive to Chicago, play there. Drive to Milwaukee, play there. Drive home. Do this every other weekend. Just go. Go out into the world. Do people do that still as much? Because I
[00:49:15] Michaela: Yeah, I don't know.
[00:49:19] Rhett: Profligate or legion or whatever the word is, like you get so much out of just those experiences and the world that you see and the people that you meet and the stories that you hear and the life that you live and if that's being replaced with, oh but I'm getting all these other stories and hearing all these living this life that's all digital
[00:49:38] Michaela:
[00:49:38] Aaron: I
feel like it's two sided, strictly career speaking. I don't know if you need to do that
anymore.
[00:49:43] Rhett: you're
[00:49:43] Aaron: I don't know if you ever need to leave your house. As a human being, I say, yes, absolutely. Go do that because the experiences that you're going to have, the people that you're going to meet are priceless.
I learned a lot and I grew a lot and. have a lot of really funny, great stories from all of that.
[00:49:57] Michaela: But it is like increasingly harder to do that now because it's I was looking through a bunch of old paperwork I had and I was like looking at hotel receipts from tours that were like, 50. I'm like, can you get a shitty hotel room for 50 anymore? I don't think you can.
the cost has increased a lot. So that comes up a lot of what is the path anymore? That used to be what I thought Go on the road and grind it out and it's taken my like body some recalibration to be like, wait, I haven't done any touring in the last since the pandemic and Aaron's what you played these major festivals.
You did two weeks with the Wood Brothers. You did two weeks with the milk carton kids. He's those are all like, valuable quality performance experiences. And I'm like, Oh, I'm just not. Out for six weeks
playing some good shows and some shitty
bars
and that's still making progress and working, but it's shifting what you think is the thing that you're supposed to do. To keep with the changing of the times, but also the changing of your own life of, okay, I don't want to do that anymore.
[00:51:06] Rhett: I remember touring with Tori Amos in, must've been 01 cuz it was when Erica was pregnant and we were doing a tertiary market tour. So she was at the end of a run for an album. So we were playing like Sioux Falls and whatever. Nothing against Sioux Falls,
It wasn't like Manhattan, Boston
[00:51:23] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:51:23] Rhett: we did play Carnegie Hall on that tour, that was pretty cool.
but it was like three months that we were out her band was on one bus, and she was on a bus with a nanny and with her daughter. And I thought okay, this is how we're going to do it. When we have kids, we'll just have bus for ourselves with our nanny. And
[00:51:39] Michaela: Ha! Whoa.
[00:51:45] Rhett: deficit tour support.
I don't know if y'all ever knew what that was, but the record label would send you out on tour and pay for all the losses. because inevitably you'd lose money on tour and the record label covers all the losses of the tour because they'll make it up with the CD sales. Can you even imagine a world like that?
We, toured in a Subaru with a baby
my
god.
[00:52:05] Michaela: and honestly, it was so much fun. It
was
[00:52:08] Aaron: great. It I like to say that I did all the fun parts of touring. I got up early. I drove all day. I made sure we got to load in.
I helped load in. And then. I went to the
hotel and put a baby to sleep, and then put a baby to sleep, and then tried to mix records with a sound machine 10 feet behind Me.
[00:52:22] Rhett: Not going to lie, though, that sounds nice. sorry, y'all talk about this podcast being the other 22 hours, right? everybody gets is that the time that we do it for is the time on stage. That's the glorious, that's the reason we're doing it. And I remember Roseanne Cash on ever Wheels Off episode talking about how touring is such a grind, and it's so hard, and the only good part of it is that 90 minutes, 2 hours on stage.
I disagree a little bit, because I do like finding the coffee shop, and I don't mind listening to my audio book while I'm
between gigs, or if we're on a bus tour with the band, I really love waking up on the bus, or playing a board game with my band members. There's a lot of fun to be had, sometimes the time on stage, Say it's a Monday night.
Say it's an off market. Say it's a bummer of a show. say we get to the third verse of Big Brown Eyes, and I can't remember whether now we're in the solo section or the outro, and I go to sing the third verse again, and I realize, Oh my God, I'm singing the third verse for a second time, and my bandmates are all looking at me.
There's some times where you're on stage and you're like, Oh, this is the worst part of the day.
[00:53:26] Aaron: grind can be pretty rough, but sometimes I really do the other part of it. I do those
Yeah.
[00:53:32] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:53:33] Aaron: Yeah. Exactly. And just to add one more thing about that the tour that Mikaela was talking about, two weeks into Subaru, just the three of us I never knew that stopping for 35 minutes at a playground in the middle of a drive was like a great way to spend your
day. Go figure.
[00:53:47] Michaela:
[00:53:47] Rhett: like musicians that succeed and having a long career wind up being pretty good at Accepting situations. Okay, this is where we're at now. You show up at a gig and the stage is way too small. Or the monitor situation sucks. Or,
Whatever it is.
[00:54:04] Michaela: Yeah. in my childhood, there was, like a lot of folks, there was some trauma, and there was some disappointment. But I feel like I got pretty good at just saying, This is the situation now. Now,
Yeah.
What do we do from
[00:54:22] Aaron: here? Yeah.
[00:54:24] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:54:26] Rhett: this is what we're dealing with. And now what? And so I love that. Like tired on this drive. This is the rest area. Oh my God, it's really beautiful.
Look at the honeysuckle.
[00:54:34] Michaela: Yeah. Radical acceptance is, Yeah. We played a show on time where we, there was like some electrical issues. So the guitar player had to play with his back to the stage the whole show. Yeah. His back to the
audience. Or the audience. Yeah. Because if he moved, it would like buzz. The hum was so bad.
[00:54:50] Aaron: He just, the, like the sweet spot for either guitar, humbucker or not. was facing directly at me at the drums in the back of the stage and was like, sorry, here we go.
[00:55:00] Michaela: Oh man. I feel like we didn't even like actually talk that much about what you do in the other 22 hours, but this has been such a, great conversation.
Thank you so much coming on and talking to us and being so honest about everything.
[00:55:14] Rhett: It's truly been my pleasure. You guys are very sweet. I'm grateful that you're doing this because I feel like the world needs this conversation that you're having. Thank you.
[00:55:22] Aaron: Yeah. Thank you.
Rhett,
[00:55:23] Michaela: Bye.
[00:55:24] Aaron: See ya.