Rissi Palmer signed her first record deal at 19, with her debut in 2007 she was the first black woman to make the country music charts in over 2 decades, she has toured with the likes of Taylor Swift, and the Eagles, appeared on Oprah, Good Morning America, at the White House, the Grand Ole Opry, and Lincoln Center, is the host of Apple Music's 'Color Me Country', and the director of the Color Me Country Artist Grant Fund. We talk about one of our favorite topics - saying no, prioritizing self care, speaking for those people who cannot speak for themselves, the music business as a meritocracy (ahem) and a whole lot more.
Rissi Palmer signed her first record deal at 19, with her debut in 2007 she was the first black woman to make the country music charts in over 2 decades, she has toured with the likes of Taylor Swift, and the Eagles, appeared on Oprah, Good Morning America, at the White House, the Grand Ole Opry, and Lincoln Center, is the host of Apple Music's 'Color Me Country', and the director of the Color Me Country Artist Grant Fund. We talk about one of our favorite topics - saying no, prioritizing self care, speaking for those people who cannot speak for themselves, the music business as a meritocracy (ahem) and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to today's episode of The Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne, and we are in the second year of The Other 22 Hours. So thankful to still be here and thank you for being here with us.
[00:00:20] Aaron: even a small show like ours takes a lot to produce.
so before we get into the episode, we just have a quick ask for you guys. The first and easiest one is to just click follow or subscribe on your listening platform of choice. It's a great way to tell the algorithm that our show is worth 45 minutes of your time. And the second ask is to just take your favorite episode, if it's this one, or maybe one from last year and share it with somebody that doesn't know about our show.
And lastly, If you want to get more out of what we talk about on this show, get deeper into your creativity, get more into the community and get a whole bunch of other goodies, we have a Patrion. we're offering one tier for everything that we offer now, everything that we offer in the future.
And you can learn more about it at the link below in the show notes.
[00:01:01] Michaela: Part of this podcast is talking about the realities of being an artist, building your career around your art. Developing a podcast is quite similar. So patronage via Patreon. really goes a long way in the financial support, as well as the building of the community of this podcast.
So we really appreciate you. And one of the things we highlight about this podcast is that we are not music journalists. So we look at these as conversations rather than pure interviews.
We are talking to other artists in a way that we try to make feel like we're sitting around the dinner table just sharing the honest realities of what this life is. Building a career on your art.
[00:01:41] Aaron: Yeah. And as we all know, one of those realities is that most of this business is outside of our control.
And so we'd like to take this show and focus on what is within our control. And that kind of boils down to our mindsets, our headspace, our routines, and our creativity. So we've condensed that into a mission statement and asking people the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And today we had the pleasure of asking that question of Recy Palmer.
[00:02:11] Michaela: Recy is based in North Carolina, but she was in Nashville for a long time. She is a country singer and songwriter. She debuted in 2007 with her song Country Girl and was one of the first African American women to chart on country billboard charts.
Since 1987.
[00:02:27] Aaron: Yeah. On top of that, she has toured with Taylor Swift and the Eagles and Chris Young. She's played at the white house. She's played at Lincoln center. She's played on the Grand Ole Opry. Been on just about every TV show written about in just about every, publication, But she's such a larger presence in our community beyond just being an artist. She hosts Color Me Country on Apple Music she also established an artist grant fund called Color Me Country Artist Grant, where she supports underrepresented voices of the BIPOC artists in country music.
We touch on that for a brief second with Recy in this interview, but if you're interested in learning more about all of her incredible endeavors, there are links for those in the show notes below. Thanks
[00:03:08] Michaela: this is a really rich conversation talking about the highs and lows that happen in a career, the personal realities of pursuing a career in country music as a woman of color, grappling with becoming an activist and supporting others while caring for oneself, being a mother and really beautiful wisdom that has come out of. Some deep hardship and as she says, the ego death some of that wisdom coming only from scraping the bottom and really shifting to a place of empowerment and choices in how you move through this career.
Not waiting for the industry and building your own ecosystem.
[00:03:51] Aaron: And what I loved is she just talked about choosing that work every day. One of my favorite things is like, there's no finish line. just keep doing the work, keep showing up.
And with that, here's our conversation with Reecey Palmer.
[00:04:03] Michaela: Thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're in between child school pickups, right?
[00:04:08] Rissi: Yes, there, you might see a child pass by in this. She's, she's, it's my four year old. She's attached
[00:04:16] Michaela: that is Totally fine. We were just discussing, I was sharing that our child wouldn't put her shoes on for drop off this morning and I carried her to school. So then we were discussing boundaries and he was saying, that's why she thinks she can do anything with you.
[00:04:32] Aaron: I'm more like, that's cool. We're putting your shoes on and
[00:04:37] Rissi: No,
[00:04:37] Michaela: I'm like, I don't want to fight.
So let's just go
[00:04:42] Rissi: almost got kicked out of a Broadway play the other day because of my four year old. So, um, Yeah,
[00:04:48] Michaela: strong world.
[00:04:49] Rissi: struggle, the struggle is real. She was like, I took my daughter and my, and her, my oldest and my youngest to see Hadestown with my mom
[00:04:57] Aaron: Cool.
[00:04:58] Rissi: York. And I explained, I'm like, look, this is a play.
We can't leave. you have to use indoor voice So we get in there and it's good. And like, I'm like, oh, my God, we're like, 20 minutes in and everything's great. I love this so much. Now, she looks at me, she goes like, in her loudest voice possible. Is it time to go yet?
Oh God.
And so I take her phone out because she has like my, old phones get handed down. So she has like the oldest phone and I was like, here, okay, look, I'm going to turn the light down so they don't see us play your games and shut She does. And then the usher of course sees it and is like, so yeah, so it was prayer
[00:05:38] Michaela: did you make it through?
[00:05:39] Rissi: We made it through the whole thing. Thank God. It like it was fun. Like it was a good show.
[00:05:45] Michaela: Yeah. started watching. But yeah, I say all that to say, I understand.
Yes. Yeah. I used, definitely used to judge parents when I would see a kid at a restaurant watching on a TV show on their phone and now I'm like, the only way we're going to enjoy this dinner is if you watch a TV show on the phone.
[00:06:02] Rissi: The only way some of us are going to make it out alive is with this phone. Very
[00:06:07] Michaela: I just wanted to kind of start with where are you right now? What's going on for you in life and career in this moment?
[00:06:15] Rissi: In Durham, North Carolina, and
I am in the midst of a Beyonce tsunami. Um, So lots of press and like that sort of thing, because thankfully, a lot of people want to talk about the history of artists of color in country music at this time. so I'm doing a lot of talking about other artists right now artists in the past, people that have inspired me and people that have laid a lot of the groundwork for artists like myself. So, Yeah, I'm in the middle of that and working on a show for Color Me Country that airs this weekend special. I'm working on my own record in the midst of all the crazy too, so that's what I'm doing.
[00:06:54] Aaron: Yeah, a lot of balance.
[00:06:56] Rissi: Yes, in addition to raising two of the most opinionated little girls on the
[00:07:02] Michaela: Yes. Amazing.
[00:07:03] Aaron: And you've had your radio show for a few years now, right? Is it 2020 that you started it? Is
[00:07:08] Rissi: Yeah, we're entering into, we're currently in the middle of our third season. it's been on since August of 2020.
[00:07:16] Aaron: Incredible. how has that been in a balance? Creatively, you know, obviously we, we don't have a radio show, but we have a weekly show and. We know how it's impacted us creatively having this other outlet where we're creating something that's not necessarily like a record, but I just want to know what that experience has been like for you.
[00:07:34] Rissi: you know, it's really been balance is an interesting word that you just used because it's been a lesson in trying to balance. When I started the radio show in 2020, we were in the middle of pandemic. So I wasn't working as a musician so much. I was recording and like doing little things here and there in the house.
But for the touring. And everything had been canceled,
It was a lot easier in the beginning to balance the research and I mean, y'all know, because you have to do this for your show, like the research you know, the invitations to the show and deciding the direction that the show is going to go and that sort of thing.
Because we, developing Color Me Country has really been like an episode by episode kind of project. I knew what I wanted it to be. But like getting it there has taken pretty much 88 episodes
Yeah. Yeah.
like, In the beginning it was a lot easier, but then once the world opened up and I started working again as a musician, in addition to being a mom, in addition to having this radio show, it's been a challenge.
I'll be honest. some days are easier than others.
[00:08:45] Michaela: We can relate, of course, and when I think about the word balance, I think of Yeah. standing on a balance beam like on one leg and like sometimes you're really steady and sometimes you're like flailing your arms trying to stop yourself from falling on one side, and I feel like that image more than just Walking straight on a tightrope Calm and straight the whole time is much closer to the reality of what life is that some days Life feels like there's no way you can be balanced.
there's weeks like if one of us gets sick there's no balance. Like, you're screwed. I used to think things could fall out of balance easily before kids, but, being parents is a whole other level that you just don't understand until you,
[00:09:29] Rissi: Someone said that being a parent is like, you're pushing a cart or something that like, has, like, the world and everything and it's on fire.
any analogy that you can think of with parenting, just add fire
[00:09:40] Michaela: so hard, the actual, like, time scheduling, but then the mental, having the mental capacity to do the things that you need to do, it's really tricky and I, shudder at all the different words of advice I tried to give friends of mine who were parents before me and I've gone back and apologized to all of them.
I didn't know what I was talking about. I'm so sorry, and on top of that, in your radio show and Color Me Country Artist Grant Fund, and The Seeds Project, which I'll, we'll ask more in depth about, but a lot of your focus, or even like right now, the Beyoncé stuff happening, that you're talking and elevating a lot of other artists, where that's not most artists career path. that's one thing I will say I've, loved about. Starting this podcast is that we think about other artists so much more I'm not on a, what are they doing? What's everyone doing and what's their music, but on such like a human level, that's really been so nice for me to not think about myself as much in my career.
[00:10:44] Rissi: to say, I think some of it is by virtue of becoming parents
When you're so used to so much of your life shifting from being 100 percent focused on yourself and what you want and your dreams and how you look and what you think and where you going, what you're wearing and all that kind of thing to suddenly to just be focused on you.
Entirely this other human being um, makes you more human. I think not to say that people without children can't be human, but like When you are in such a self focused Job like occupation as being an artist. It helps bring you back down and yeah, I love the fact that I Spend a lot more time thinking about other people In my life than I do myself But there's also, again, that word balance, where you have to remember, like, I spend so much time talking about other people and advocating for other people that I have to remember like, girl, you got it.
You are a singer.
Yeah. I don't know if you remember that, but you're you are a
Mm. And you need to write songs and you need to put out music you need to advocate for her too. it's been a big lesson. For me and humility and ego death but also in like self care too.
Like you have to, at some point be a promoter of self
And so it's just trying to find the balance and all that.
[00:12:06] Aaron: can you share some of the nitty gritty of how you found that balance? You know, Like more on a, day to day maybe it's tangibles. Yeah. Tangible things that you've done that help you strike that balance.
[00:12:16] Rissi: So I say this was my year. No. I'm having a really hard time. To be perfectly honest No, this was my year of no, I decided in the beginning of this year, there were a lot of personal changes in my life in 2023 to my home life and my family life and all that. And so it has forced me When I have my children, when I'm with my children that I have to be very much focused on it and I try not to work when I have my kids if it's at all possible. So, That means a lot of times like, every other week to say, no, I can't do this interview. I can't do this show. I can't go to Europe.
and that sucks and that's hard because I'm 1 of those people to like, you know, as a musician, like, opportunities don't always come. And so, you have to take them we trained ourselves to no, you gotta jump.
Mm-Hmm.
comes, you have to do it, but it has forced me to have faith that, number one, I believe in God and I believe that there is a path that's already laid out for me. And so it's forced me to like, okay, let's test that theory. If you say no to this thing, you know, that you're not gonna be able to do the thing that you really want to do. But if you truly believe that this is the path, this is the purpose. Of your life, the opportunity will come back because what's yours is yours.
Right? that's what this year has been for me. It's like, you can't do every interview. You can't teach every class. You can't curate every festival. You can't write with everybody that wants to write with you. Like, You need to pick and choose what's best. For the situation, what's best for you, what's best for these goals that you set up for yourself and what's best for your children like, for your family life and what's self care.
That's the other thing too. For the 1st time in my life, making time for, like, it sounds so silly, but, like, I got 1 of those memberships to do spa where you can do a facial or you
Mm hmm. Oh, yeah.
I had to like, make it something that I pay for every month, so that I have to go do it.
Whether or not I go and do it, 79 is being taken out of your account every month. So, It would behoove him to go lay down on somebody's table and let them rub on your back. Or,
Mm I have to force myself to take an hour out of my month to just do it. Be racing that just wants to have her background or just wants to have, some skin taken off of her face.
So, but that's what I've had to do.
[00:14:50] Aaron: That just reminds me, it's a quote I heard somebody say a couple weeks ago that's just been like ringing in my head every day. And he was referring to like running like ultra marathons. So running, you know, a hundred mile races and all that. But it applies to so much.
And he said, sign up first and then make a plan,
We'll spend forever planning and figuring out how to do it, but never actually start.
[00:15:10] Rissi: never actually do it. Yeah. I'll talk about it all the time. I should do this. I should do that. make the appointment.
[00:15:15] Michaela: And also when it comes to things like, you know, a facial or a massage we associate those so much with well, those are luxuries. Those aren't necessities. Yeah. but Actually, it's really good for my health, not just my mental health, my like physical health. I have chronic neck pain.
A massage will like prohibit me from getting knocked out for days on end because my neck is so bad.
[00:15:37] Rissi: from losing my mind. Yes. Like, it's, yeah.
[00:15:43] Michaela: I'm curious about, those who speak up on, issues of the When it's, just innately a part of us and then also where circumstances force us, and I'm always with great sensitivity, always curious for, people who are people of color basically anybody who's not a white straight man who has these, Things in their life that society has decided are going to be their limitations that are not personal, but affect you and prohibit things in your life from happening.
But then, Affect all another whole group of people. So then you become a spokesperson of sorts. And curious about your personal relationship to that. And if there has ever been reluctance resentment of, Damn it. I would just like to write and put out songs and that's it. and has that, evolved?
[00:16:38] Rissi: First of all, no one has ever asked me that.
[00:16:40] Michaela: Oh, wow.
[00:16:41] Rissi: Thank you for asking a question. No one has ever
Okay.
Like, that's great.
hmm. It's not easy. I did not set out to be Reezy, advocate Reezy. It really was just like, I I don't like when things aren't fair or like when things aren't equal. I know that, the adage I say to my children all the time, life is not fair, but I don't like when something is obviously wrong and people won't talk about it. And so like a lot of the advocacy work, speaking out stuff that I have done, it's just stuff that I would do anyway. Like it was, I feel like sometimes Twitter is like a porch.
And you're just yelling from your porch, don't do that. Put that
Mm
And I was doing that. Like, I was just like, okay, so y'all know that this has been going on,
hmm.
hate to be that person, but like, and then people just started to be like, I think Reese is saying something. Let's all turn around and look. And so I then realized that there were things that I can say now, I couldn't say in the beginning of my career, because I was afraid that I wouldn't. Get played on the radio, or I wouldn't get asked to do things and then you get to the point of your career where you're not being played on the radio and you're not being asked to things.
And so it's just like, I can say it and it's true.
It's not gonna affect me one way or the other, because I'm over here doing this other thing. And so when I left Nashville. In 2009 and got out of my deal in 2010. I have essentially been an independent artist, 100 percent independent artists that whole time from then to now.
Wow.
I just got a manager a year ago. I just got an agent a year ago. Everything else that has happened just because of the fact that I'm just stubborn. So I recognize how important it is. For people that are just starting out and do have those dreams and do have those hopes Of getting to do the things that i've gotten to do And maybe they're afraid to say it because they want to do those things and they don't want those opportunities taken away from them so I see it as a responsibility to be able to speak for people who may not necessarily be able to speak for themselves. But at the same time It's a really heavy burden because it's like i'm still an artist I still want to do things I still want to be invited on tours. I still want to play festivals and you know have the opportunity to have my music considered and I realized that sometimes when I say the unpopular thing You you may not get invited
but I still feel like it's the right thing
necessary to do. But it is heavy I'm not even gonna lie. I've been having a little bit of an existential crisis this week. In working on some of the things that I'm working on for the show, haven't been reading a lot about other artists from the 60s and 70s. And the stories are just so similar and they're so heavy moments where I'm just like, why am I doing this? Like, I could be doing something completely different and enjoying myself and not worrying about any of these things, but it's just like, I do it because, there are people that listen to me, whereas some of these other people didn't have anybody listening to me. And so in that way it's important and somebody has to do it, why not me?
And then you also, there are the things, like someone wrote me and I don't think they realized that they were gonna trigger something. I'm gonna call her out because it was really sweet of her.
I did a post about the research that I was doing and just, y'all, you don't even realize how deep all this goes. And Tammy Nielsen, who is an artist that I love and I've had on my show. And I just admire her so much. she inboxed me and she said, I hope somebody is advocating for you as hard as you advocate for other people.
hmm. Sobbing, like, you know, and I was just feeling really vulnerable in that moment. it's hard. It is. It's hard. And I'd be lying if I said that, I'm brave And defiant all the time. Sometimes I don't want to be brave. I don't want to be sassy. I don't want to be quiet.
[00:20:43] Michaela: Because, also I think about this stuff a lot because of just my personal makeup and my education, what I pursued in school and, social justice and racism and all has been something I've always been emotionally aware of and drawn to since a young child. And I think about my relationships with close friends of mine who are, black women and think about the emotional load that they have to carry for themselves to process and protect themselves. And the layer of that, that is always there underneath, They're top layer that they have to present the world to try and defend and advocate and help others.
I think about my life as my, what I can relate it to is as a, white woman being in, sexist experiences. And when I share them with men, thankfully not this man, but I so vividly can recount experiences where I've shared with other men, like in the music industry about very sexist experiences I have with men that they work with.
And just the kind of nodding, like empathetic nodding, but I'm like, Oh, this is making them uncomfortable. Cause they're just like, shit, I don't want to know this stuff. I benefit from this relationship with this person or this system. And sometimes you just look around and you're like, can someone just protect me?
Can someone just speak up, since it doesn't impact you? And that, I think is, the root of when people try to have a call to action of like, can more artists, can more people get involved and speak up? those who are loudest are the ones who are impacted the most and therefore need the most.
But a hard call to convince others. You might not think you're impacted by this, but it would be really beneficial if you could just come on
[00:22:31] Rissi: yeah. I think that's why I was so touched and moved by what Maren Morris did in 2021 when she got on the CMAs and said all of our names during her acceptance speech. And she took a lot of heat
it was, it was very kind those are the moments that make me feel, okay, you can do another one.
You can do another thing because it was like, you don't have to do that. And that was really cool. And I appreciate that. And so I want to pay that forward.
[00:23:03] Aaron: yeah,
that is kind
of tying what you were just saying about, essentially about community, about
somebody else. Stepping up advocating the way you do for other people, tying that back to Having shows is something that's been really Fulfilling on my end focusing on The community as a whole rather than on myself and my career and that has been really That has really inspired the art that I make and think my attention to it in a way it has surprisingly to me been able to feed back To I guess me allowing myself to create the art that I want to make because I know that there's a spot in the community for it, seeing whole pie that is there, if
[00:23:39] Rissi: Yes.
Yeah. No, it makes total sense. I think doing that sort of thing when you do focus on other people, it shapes your art. It changes your art because it changes the way you see yourself. changes the way you see the world around you. Maybe the medium that you work in. for me.
It's changed who I work with.
what my hiring practices are, and, the people that I give opportunity in, you know, the Reese's fear.
it made me more cognizant of it because I don't think I don't think most people think about it, but I was just like, here I am, using myself as an example.
I think about when I first came to Nashville, the natural Nashville thing to do is to try to hire all the natural people, the regular try to write with all the natural people.
Mm hmm.
you know, You want to be produced. By the national producers and that sort of thing. just like having the right people and some of those people are still in my life My publicist that I've been working together for 16 years now, which is insane. and then some of the people just were not for me and we're there for the moment, right? But now I hire very intentionally, like I tried to. write with people, like, if something good comes of my music, this will deeply impact this person.
The trajectory of things for them. This may help them to get noticed by other people. you know, and then they can have a long lasting career or the musicians that I use on this project, it would be infinitely helpful to them for people to say, oh, that person is really good. I didn't know they could play this kind of music.
I'm going to hire them for this. And so on and so forth, because it really does work like that. Down the line, there was a makeup artist that I used just on a LARP, because my usual person wasn't around. And she's phenomenal and was like, I have been trying to break into country music for years. And I was able to refer her to someone and now she's the one that everybody goes to that means a lot to me.
And, I'm not trying to toot my own horn. But what I am saying is that, again, when you start to think about other people, and the way that your actions and your choices impact the economy, the, the people around you, you start to move differently. And make different choices. that's how it is. impacted me for sure.
[00:26:00] Aaron: Yeah, and I think once you make that switch away from the Nashville Session guys, the Nashville producer, you're opening your horizons to be able to create so much more, to be able to step into something that's so much more powerful. Something that I've noticed, we've been in Nashville for 10 years there is this thing.
in a lot of the different scenes that I see where, you know, it's almost like the emperor's new clothes in a way, you
[00:26:23] Rissi: Yes.
[00:26:24] Aaron: people really hire with their eyes rather than hiring with their ears. They see people on a post or on credits and they're like they're good. Cause this name and this name, this thing.
Yeah. And it's like, chances are they are very talented, but is it right for you? Maybe not. there are so many people that get overlooked like you were saying, that aren't given the opportunity that are just incredible. Because they, weren't on XYZ credits as somebody that is, in your position or in Michaela's position where you're hiring people all the time, when you step past that and you really, look past the credits, look past, the loud voices, yeah, the resume, the loud voices in the room, whatever, there is a lot of fruit on the tree.
[00:26:59] Rissi: love what you just said. I literally had this conversation with a friend the other day. I'm learning more and more, and I'm trying to tell, younger artists or newer artists, if you look at it this way, you'll be able to depersonalize so much of this. There's a movie that I loved when I was younger um, it's a Dorothy Dandridge story, came on HBO, Halle Berry was in it, anyway, she's playing Dorothy Dandridge, who was the first black woman to win an Oscar for her portrayal of Carmen.
And so like, whenever you think of that role, you can't think of anyone else like she's synonymous with it, right? They weren't considering her in the very beginning. She wasn't even in the running. they were looking at Lena Horne or like Diane Carroll or any of the women that were like big names.
And there's a scene that I love because it encapsulates the music business so well. And it's her agent talking to the casting agent for this movie. her manager agent has been trying to get her an audition, trying to get her an audition and they won't make an appointment. They're like, we don't want to see her.
We're fine. so finally the agent corners, this guy. At this party and he's like, look, I've been trying to get a meeting with you for weeks. What's the problem? Like she's in movies. She's beautiful. She's playing these cabaret shows and all this stuff. Like why can't we get an audition? And the guy says to him on my way to work, I see faces. I see faces in newspapers. I see faces in the trades. I see faces on billboards. I don't see her face. that's the business. It is whatever I just saw, whatever name I just heard. I flipped on the TV and I saw that person. And now suddenly that person is the one whatever I see in 140 characters or less, whatever I saw on tick tock, whatever I saw, that's what's happening.
And that's the reality.
And that's, unfortunately, the business we're in.
[00:28:54] Michaela: Well, And I think when you move to the place that you were talking about being in, of being really conscious about your hiring practice and who you're including and who you're elevating, we had Gretchen Peters on here and she talked about how the music industry really, she's the best, how the music industry really keeps artists in a position of, please can I have.
[00:29:13] Rissi: Yes.
[00:29:14] Michaela: So when you're in that position of, please, can I have, you're like, whatever agent wants to work with me. Okay. Cause I need it. Whatever publicist, if I can get these so called best musicians, because I see them playing on popular records and Can I have it? Versus. All right, I'm going to make decisions that I feel like align with me and my art and my character, my singular vision, rather than how can I get. That's a pretty, Powerful and empowering shifts to make and difficult I don't think anything can happen in your career to tell you you're in the position to do that You have to do that for yourself
[00:29:51] Rissi: Yeah, I don't know, very many people who get there without experiencing the bottom.
I think, unfortunately, it's one of those things. It takes the ego death, to get you there. And I definitely had 1 and so, it is a choice and it's a choice you have to make on a daily basis.
I wish I could say that it's a destination in which you stay, but it is not. Because then you're just like why is that happening over there? And it's not happening over here and like that kind of thing. one of those things you have to, it's like, love is an action verb. So is this particular choosing and not, being chosen is an active, thing that you have to do on a daily basis and remind yourself of
[00:30:30] Michaela: Choosing and not being chosen. that's a big one. I feel compelled to share cause before this I had like a coaching kind of therapy session where I did, I don't know if you know it. EFT like tapping is,
[00:30:41] Rissi: Yes, I do.
[00:30:43] Michaela: I've shared on this podcast and I've shared publicly my booking agent basically stopped talking to me when I shared that I was pregnant and it's been a difficult thing for me to get over.
the narrative that I've struggled with is feeling like I was mistreated. It's something that happened to me that was really unfair. It knocked my self esteem. It's taken me a long time to feel like I have. Value in the industry, an appeal, whatever.
And I was doing this kind of, tapping session to work through like other people's limiting beliefs that I have taken on as my own. And through the session, I came to a place, I was working through an email that he had sent me. That was kind of like the beginning of the end.
That was just this pretty terrible email. And it was through the session, I like got to a place where I was like, Oh. Instead of being like cowering and feeling like a victim, I all of a sudden shifted to feeling like, thank you. Thank you for showing me your character and this moment, because that's not what I want to align with.
I don't want that in my sphere and my business and it really shifted from, this is something that happened to me, that this is something that happened for me and yeah, it was,
[00:31:56] Rissi: that's an empowering stance
[00:31:58] Michaela: yeah.
[00:31:59] Rissi: take.
[00:32:00] Michaela: We'll see if, how long this stays with me past today, but I wrote it down so I can look at it because I was like, this also needs to inform all my future decisions that when someone else comes along, I don't want to make decisions of moving into relationships, working relationships based on flattery, what they've done Their, position of power, it needs to be our characters aligned?
Are our senses of integrity aligned? Are belief systems aligned? Because I've had some of the so called best in the business and they weren't good for me.
like you said getting to the bottom sometimes the greatest lessons Movement, it might be a slow move into empowerment slow climb up from the bottom of the
[00:32:49] Rissi: Yeah. No, it is. But it's, real, I relate so much to that. First of all, I'm very sorry that that happened to you.
[00:32:55] Michaela: Thank you,
[00:32:56] Rissi: but, you know, in the same breath again, I'm actually glad because then you don't have to work with that person anymore. And like, something else is going to come along.
And a line is just that weight while you're there that is exhausting and trying. But, um, you know, very similar thing when everybody found out that I was leaving my record company in 2008 I found bankruptcy. That's how my record deal ended. And at the time a modeling contract with IMG a contract for a development deal for a television show with travel channel, all these things going on in the background and found this bankruptcy to get out of my deal and get out of all the financial mess.
That my deal had put me in. all these people were just like, Oh, if you get out of your deal, call me and we, you know, we'll be ready to work and we'll sign you. And we'll do that. We'd be interested in signing you By the time everything ended, nobody was calling me back nobody would answer phone calls.
Nobody would return phone calls. all these people that, well, yeah, we'll sign you, we'll do this. I left Nashville. Feeling like a failure and it took a really long time to get out of it and to get out of the woe is me and, I've been rejected because I'm a terrible person or something like that. It's hard not to personalize a lot of this. I get that real big, which is it?
[00:34:18] Aaron: able to separate, re see the person from re see the artist, and insert any name in there, it's such a difficult thing, your art is such a personal thing and as we all know, the business is so all encompassing.
it just inherently becomes this swirl that is indistinguishable. And, it's incredibly difficult to not take that as a verdict on who you are and your character.
[00:34:43] Michaela: Which is crazy and I, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've had those thoughts of if I were better, if I was, you know, a better person, better musician, maybe I'd be rewarded.
But we all know people who seemingly on the outside have been rewarded over and over and over again with so called success and money and fame and are deeply unhappy or terrible people. I don't really like the word of like good or bad people, but like. people who are, destructive or unkind or, do bad things to people.
So this kind of exchange of like, reward or punishment for your quality of person we know logically is not real, but we still think wouldn't I be rewarded, if I was better?
[00:35:30] Rissi: I think so much virtue signaling is programmed into everything that we do. Like, I've been reading this book about how weight has even become like a virtue signal
People don't even realize it. It's like, well, you're fat because you do such and such and you're like this. And like, if you were a better person, you'd be able to lose the weight and you'd be able to walk and run, eat carrots and things like that.
we don't even realize how much of that kind of stuff is coded into everything that we do. obviously, when you're not having success, and you're not succeeding in the thing that you want so desperately to succeed in, it is clearly because something is wrong with you.
we look at the music business as this meritocracy, and it is not.
The most talented people are the people that work the restaurant across the street and sing for fun,
Mm-Hmm.
at church on Sunday.
Mm-Hmm.
Like, If this really was a business of everyone who's great is gonna win, the music business would look very
[00:36:32] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Very different.
[00:36:33] Rissi: If we let go of that and let go of the value of us as musicians and as artists being in like multi million dollar success, then it changes your perspective. I tell new artists all the time, you have to decide, do you want to be famous or do you want to be a musician? Cause two very different paths, lots of different outcomes. But one person is much happier and I'll tell you who that is. Yeah. a whole mindset change that has to happen. We have to change the way we see success and what success is measured in and that sort of thing. And that's harm.
[00:37:10] Michaela: It's very hard when you, especially when you live in a society that's obsessed with fame and money and not talent or work ethic. those aren't the things that we're really elevating as a societal whole. if you look at like what is wildly successful, what are like the people with the greatest Instagram followers, like influencers are influencing. They're not like the writers and philosophers and artists. They're like pedaling a lifestyle with items to sell.
I'm not attacking influencers, but
[00:37:43] Rissi: No. Influences are lovely, lovely people.
[00:37:46] Michaela: I'm just meaning it's hard to constantly have to restructure your mindset to a value system that butts up against the mainstream greater culture that we see every day, everywhere around us.
[00:37:59] Rissi: You know, That's one of the hard things about raising children. I'm sure you guys will agree. It's trying to explain to them that none of this is real. Like, My 12 year old, I have to have that conversation on a regular basis. Like, girl, like, she's very into Nora Smith I know her as the little girl that makes everything from scratch. Like, I watched her make Cinnamon Toast Crunch cereal for her children from scratch. And I was endlessly fascinated by this because I was like, this would have been me running to the car, getting in the car, driving to the store, buying a box, coming back and pouring it for them and putting back my sweatpants.
Yep. Mm Out flour and cinnamon and sugar and like made cinnamon toast crunch for her kid from scratch.
Okay. And so her whole thing is she likes to do things from scratch and she does it with a full face of makeup. And a very cute outfit and she's stupid then, but like, they eat like horses
[00:38:55] Michaela: Uh,
I think I know about this. Yeah. Okay.
[00:38:59] Rissi: And so I was telling my daughter, I was like, this is an awesome thing to want to aspire to be as far as like someone that has chosen a life where they are completely dedicated to. Making everything from scratch, knowing where their food comes from and all that.
That's awesome. That's lovely. you know, My grandmother was that person. I find it kind of endearing. Next sentence, they did 15 takes of this. She didn't make this. In one and like the lighting was perfect and her makeup was perfect there weren't children crying in the background or running by
Yeah.
like someone's watching the kids in another room.
There is a big light in her kitchen shining down so that she looks amazing while she's doing this. She probably burned some of these. And so they've had to do like a couple of trade, you know, I'm saying, like, it was like, so just just know that nobody's life. Is that perfect all the time and runs that smoothly all the time.
[00:39:54] Aaron: Absolutely. I'm sitting here and going, and it's her job. She's getting paid to do
[00:39:58] Rissi: it's her job.
[00:40:00] Aaron: else.
[00:40:01] Michaela: Well,
Yeah. And it, it distorts our sense of reality. Exactly that. I really, Enjoy the different mom influencers that I follow the ones that show like That travel with their kids and that's their thing.
But then they're like, hey, here's a reality check This is what this actually like there were 500 tantrums. There was this happening this happening i'm like yeah, so then you don't go on vacation with your kids or try to do something and you're like Why is this so stressful and hard? because Yeah, only for me because it is for everybody You Just, they're editing videos and, I remember the first year, probably still, that Georgia was alive but I put a record out and my manager or someone would be like, hey, can you do a video about this or a post about this and I'd be like, oh my god, do you know what I look like?
Like. Know that? I know like, I'll share right now. This is a makeup day. So, like, As soon as I get off the phone with y'all, I'm going to film 3 other things because I actually am dressed. My hair is done have on makeup. I'm just gonna take off my glasses. But, like, on a regular basis.
[00:41:08] Rissi: Oh, it's a hot mess around
[00:41:09] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:41:10] Rissi: And so you got to catch me on the right day. If you
[00:41:13] Michaela: and the amount of, I remember back then being like, but not only am I like, you know what I look like right now? But the amount of time and energy it would take to make myself look presentable, where pre pandemic, pre child life. I was like, Oh yeah, I'm always looking cute. Like, no, no, but I was like, I can't even, you know, maybe next Wednesday I could try to plan ahead so that I could have some time while the baby naps and I can like make my hair look better and put on a little bit of makeup.
But it was really, it was, like a mindfuck. Fuck. For me to feel like, why is this so hard? To just look presentable, where then I'll open up my phone and all these moms with five kids look beautiful. What?
[00:42:02] Rissi: to make breakfast and dinner today. Applaud me. Yeah, like, all the children made it to all their practices. I haven't done anything else, but like, this is what happened. listen, I, everybody that works with me, my manager and all the content people they know, give me a day, tell me on Thursday we're going to need you to do blah, blah, blah. I can make sure, that I will be ready at some point on Thursday in order to give you maybe 60 percent of what you asked for.
Yeah.
And then the rest of it, I'll have to catch you on another day when I decide that I'm going to put on makeup.
Yeah. Yeah. going to get sleepy glasses and possibly a head wrap.
[00:42:41] Michaela: Maybe that's the revolution of just starting to put our sleepy fae
[00:42:46] Rissi: oh, I do
[00:42:47] Michaela: face on the internet more often so the rest of us wouldn't feel so like, wait, why? Why do I look bad? Why do I look beat up after a night with
[00:42:56] Rissi: Right.
[00:42:57] Michaela: Toddler.
[00:42:58] Rissi: No, I have started, I have started my unfiltered content. Like I posted a picture of Noah and I sleeping together because it was just the wildest thing. There's like a foot in my face.
Yep.
And so this really was me at three o'clock in the morning looking like, why is this child sleeping like this with this foot in my face? And everybody thought it was so funny. I got so many DMs. They were just like, that's so funny. And like, I, I appreciate you posting your reel.
[00:43:24] Aaron: Yeah. Well, I mean, That's because everybody's crying for that. Everybody's like, yes, that's real. you know, We just send each other memes all day. That is somebody pulling back the curtain. It's like, oh, because it's a relief. You know, You can like, it allows you to let the pressure gauge off yourself.
[00:43:39] Michaela: yeah, when like, our two year old wouldn't sleep he was sleeping on the couch because she doesn't sleep straight, so then she comes in the bed with me and we're exhausted and then like, the next morning we're angry because we didn't sleep and then we're taking it out on each other and then we see a meme like, We're making fun of the same scenario and we're like, see, we're not alone.
[00:43:55] Rissi: It's not just us. Not just us.
[00:43:58] Aaron: On the topic of having a lot to do today, great spot to put a bow on the conversation and
[00:44:03] Rissi: No, this has been a good conversation. Thank you.
[00:44:05] Michaela: Thank you so much. I've been so excited to get to talk to you and you know, I have like lists with most of these conversation lists of questions we didn't get to, but I hope we get to meet in person someday.
I've for a long time been watching your work and just a really big fan and Think it's really valuable. So thank you.
[00:44:23] Rissi: Thank you. I appreciate that.
[00:44:25] Michaela: I hope you get your facial this month
[00:44:28] Rissi: I will. I'm playing with a little foot right now. That's what I'm doing.
[00:44:31] Aaron: I love that And I know we didn't get to talk about like Half of the projects that you have in any detail So I just want to say on the mic that if anybody's interested in that there'll be links in the show notes to Everything that you're involved with so
[00:44:44] Rissi: Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for your time. This was a great conversation.
[00:44:48] Michaela: Thank you. Bye.
[00:44:50] Rissi: Bye