Robert Ellis is a singer-songwriter, producer, and multi-instrumentalist who has put out 6 albums both self-released and on New West Records, and having worked on records by Jamestown Revival, White Denim, Khruangbin, Nicole Atkins and others. We chat about the many benefits of mindfulness and being in the present moment, using adversity and tough times to return to having fun creating, parenting and perceptions, sobriety, and just saying f*ck it let's try something new!
Robert Ellis is a singer-songwriter, producer, and multi-instrumentalist who has put out 6 albums both self-released and on New West Records, and having worked on records by Jamestown Revival, White Denim, Khruangbin, Nicole Atkins and others. We chat about the many benefits of mindfulness and being in the present moment, using adversity and tough times to return to having fun creating, parenting and perceptions, sobriety, and just saying f*ck it let's try something new!
Links:
Click here to watch this conversation on YouTube.
Social Media:
All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne, and since this show is still pretty new, we're not even a year old. Yeah, count it. we really appreciate you being here. If you're a first time listener, that's so awesome.
Thank you for checking us out. If you're a returning listener, thank you even more for just coming back every time.
[00:00:21] Aaron: It's really humbling to have repeat listeners to this thing that is essentially us just It's talking to friends and artists that we really admire. If you have a favorite episode, maybe it's this episode that you're coming back to. Maybe it's a previous episode. If you could just take a second and share that with somebody that doesn't know what we do.
It's the best way for us to get in front of more listeners and we need more listeners to keep doing this and to keep getting guests and to keep sharing these awesome ideas back with you guys. So if you could take a second and share your favorite episode on social media via text message, email it to somebody.
Just talk about it. We'd really appreciate that. Yeah,
[00:00:53] Michaela: we are a homegrown endeavor I really noticed lately as I listen to some of my favorite podcasts. It's a daily man There's so many when they list the credits There's so many people so many producers editors sound engineers mixer music. It's just us and our Incredible editor Leland.
It's a three person operation. So we would love to grow and get some more help and be able to someday list 10 names.
[00:01:21] Aaron: Yeah, that all starts with listeners. So whatever you could do to help us get more of those would be
[00:01:25] Michaela: great. And we are not your typical music journalist promo show. We're not promoting an artist.
latest record or their tour. We want to talk about the off cycle times, the in between times for artists, a lot of the personal stuff that maybe we don't like to broadcast so much, but we are interested in the behind the scenes tools, routines they found and learned. can be helpful to stay inspired, creative, and sane while building a career around their art.
[00:01:53] Aaron: And if you've spent even just a few months trying to make a career around your art, you know that there is so much in this business that is outside of our control. And so we focus on what is within our control, our mindsets, our habits, our creativity. And we ask our guests the general question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
[00:02:15] Michaela: And today's guest. We didn't even talk about this, but we've known Robert for a very long time. Robert Ellis. He's from Texas. He has bounced around all the music cities. He's lived in Austin, Nashville, New York, and now he is building his home with his family in Fort Worth.
He's put out several records On his own, as well as with New West, he's toured with Alabama Shakes, Old Crow, Rep Medicine Show, Old 97s. He's toured all over the world. He's produced records.
[00:02:42] Aaron: Niles City Sound is a studio in Fort Worth that he is, co owner with, a friend. They put out really cool records.
One thing that I really respect with Robert is that He doesn't care about fitting into a mold, really. He loves jazz, he loves songs, he loves country music, all of that. And you can hear that in all of his music. He put out the Texas Piano Man, which is a record a couple years ago, which is, he's just playing piano.
[00:03:03] Michaela: He's an amazing guitar player, but he's just playing piano and singing songs. and we, talk about that a little bit, just the pure joy of creating and getting back to that. Yeah, I want to say the key is getting back to that. Because what I, think is really incredible about this conversation is the journey that he's experienced in such a short time of getting in the mix and having a moment and the ego driven kind of stuff and maybe kind of losing your way and finding your way back to why you're in this...
from the start, and I didn't bring this up, but I remember I met Robert when we were moving to Nashville. And I remember And he was moving to New York. He was moving to New York, and I remember he told me, don't move to East Nashville. That's where everybody is. Do your own thing. You guys should check out South Nashville.
And here we are. Even though I, I've done a little kicking and screaming, I've always had a hard time going my own way. Anyways, this is a great conversation, so I can't wait for you guys to hear it.
[00:03:54] Aaron: Without further ado, here's our conversation with Robert Ellis.
I
[00:03:57] Michaela: do wonder like, what all this like, Zoom video stuff does to our brains of getting so used to just seeing yourself all the time.
[00:04:06] Robert: are we started? Did we start the interview yet?
[00:04:10] Aaron: Hi, welcome. Let's jump in. Yeah.
[00:04:14] Robert: Because I can tell you what I think it's doing. But it's really esoteric
[00:04:18] Michaela: Oh, I want to hear, because I'm just like, is it making us even more self obsessed Yeah
[00:04:24] Robert: the concept that you are the same person that everyone else sees. That you have a self in that way. You know what I mean? It's just further reinforcing this concept that our whole experience is from point A to point B. You know what I mean?
Like, We see an object as like, shining a spotlight on something else from a central point. And I just am not convinced, especially lately, that there is a center of experience in that way like, I think it's weird that we,perceive the world that way like, other than looking in a mirror and, like, all of the language and social constructions that we have, it doesn't seem obvious to me that there would be, a me at the center like, the easiest way to put this is why when you Sit down at a table and you go.
Oh, I left my phone. Who are you talking to? Like What is the you that's talking to the you that says in your head? Oh Like there's just one thing happening. So I don't know I find this kind of stuff. Just not healthy
[00:05:26] Aaron: Do you listen to Sam Harris? 'cause that's full on Sam Harris.
[00:05:30] Robert: him so much. Yeah,
[00:05:31] Aaron: Okay. Yeah. Look for the one that is looking and all of that
[00:05:35] Robert: that's my shit and lock kelly Who studied with the same teacher like especially lately. I've been really interested in this non dual sudden awakening and gradual unfolding
[00:05:47] Aaron: it's like there are times in listening to both of those people talk where it feels like I'm trying to wrap a hotdog around a bowling ball. And it doesn't, it doesn't quite
work,
[00:05:56] Robert: You know what I like about it though as opposed to every other kind of meditation mindfulness like, for years I've tried different stuff and I did like TM for a while and just regular meditation and what I like about that direct method is that the first time that I listened to Locke Kelly talk about this stuff I felt a change like I felt a glimpse of something that I don't know It feels like it put my time in perspective like this is what I want to cultivate is Finding this and it seems to me that a shift in perspective is necessary to get there,
[00:06:33] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah,
[00:06:34] Michaela: I feel a lot of these conversations too, and what I notice what seems like a healthy evolution for a lot of creatives and artists who are like trying to build careers, is the evolution beyond being so self focused, but where you think that's how you're supposed to be in order to be successful, but it's very contrary to like what. It actually bodes well for a healthy, happy life to be so consumed with yourself. And I was writing with a friend yesterday, he's Jewish and he told me about this quote, we were writing a song kind of about this quote from this other book I was reading That said, the humdrum is holy, that like the day to day life that a lot of times we think is like the stuff to avoid, the boring work, especially when you become parents and so much of your life is like the routine and the laundry and the kids and learning that's actually where holiness is and we were like what does holy mean?
And what is holy to each of us? And he's Jewish And I'm not any religion and then he told me this quote from Rabbi Hillel, who I guess is a very famous rabbi, that says, if I'm not for myself, who will be for me? and if I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when? And I was thinking about that, because also we had Joe Pug on and He has this great. Quote at the end of our conversation where he talks about Dante's Inferno and that hell at the end of that book is Him being encased in ice looking at himself and that actually hell is only caring about yourself So anyways, this is all to tie back to these thoughts of likeso how we see ourselves So much in the screens as well as in our social media in our sharing of everything like I think it is fucking with our brains a bit.
[00:08:23] Robert: Yeah.
[00:08:23] Michaela: So self focused.
[00:08:26] Robert: It's a natural abstraction though, if your idea of the self is so concrete and it's kind of in every interaction we have, like everything in our language is geared towards that type of thinking. So to me, it's a natural conclusion that we would get this. Projected other like you're taking all that stuff that happens in your mind And then you're putting it out there for everyone to see and you're constantly just building this identity a couple things that you made me think of I remember I think when I was like 16 or something Someone gave me that Zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance
Mm hmm. Mm
[00:09:00] Aaron: hmm.
[00:09:01] Robert: And I haven't read it in forever, and I haven't thought about it until just now really maybe I should go back and re read it, but I do remember a quote from that and this could be bullshit, this is not fact checked, but I remember a quote about the word tedious and like the word deus and how God being in the tedious was like, they were both derived from the same Latin word which alludes to the fact that, God or whatever you want to call it is in the tedious mundane Just the everyday doing
you mentioned Joe, me and Joe are good friends and I don't want to throw him under the, how long ago was he on the podcast?
[00:09:36] Aaron: This would have been back in the spring, yeah. It's had some time to air.
[00:09:39] Robert: I just saw him and I don't know how much he talks about this, but did he talk any about Catholicism?
[00:09:45] Michaela: No, actually.
[00:09:46] Robert: Interesting, because I know lately he's been interested in that and I just went and visited him. we talked about it briefly, and I know he's recently been interested in Catholicism.
And I think there's like a beautiful place that goes to there. And I was intrigued by it.
[00:10:00] Michaela: that didn't come up, a lot of the conversation was about him progressing in life and like with career choices and ambitions and shifting and, family being priority and that kind of understanding like his unhappier times in life was when he was. It's just about himself, and we were just talking about it before we came out here, of just, the nature of a career when you're trying to get things.
Like you're trying to get a tour. You're trying to get a record deal. whether you get it or not feels like such a direct reflection of who you are and if you're good enough.
It's really awful.
[00:10:38] Robert: yeah, it sucks.
[00:10:39] Michaela: And I'm not convinced that it ever ends, no matter how much you get. Because I was referencing that I watched the Sheryl Crow documentary, and she talks about being biggest pop star in the world, and then not getting everything. Not getting the Grammys and I'm like if Sheryl Crow is feeling this stuff sitting in her Mansion with all of her Grammys like we're all screwed
[00:11:02] Robert: yeah, yeah,
[00:11:05] Michaela: How do you keep like how do you stay in your purity of man, it still hurts every time that you get rejected, you get turned down, you don't get the thing you dreamt of or hoped for, but stay reconnecting to, okay do I still want to make music? And what does that look like? And how do I do that?
[00:11:22] Robert: I definitely had a long period of like, readjustment and some serious depression and trying to just figure out what my place is in this whole thing. I think COVID probably for everyone was weird, but then I also have kids. I've got two kids and one on the way, and that
congrats.
sort of coincided. Thank you. But, my first kid. Wasn't even in school yet and COVID hit and then like money obviously became a concern that it never really was before. And and then more than that, like all of this identity stuff at the same time, I left my record label, left my management just had these massive sort of structural changes in my business.
And I also got a recurring case of tonsillitis like at the beginning of COVID. And for like five months had no voice and ENT at the time, which was super crazy during COVID trying to go into a doctor to address a non COVID issue, like just complicated. And he had to like stick a camera down my throat over and over.
I ended up having a paralyzed vocal cord.
now I realized, luckily it was when I couldn't have worked anyway because the whole world had shut down. But. It really freaked me out and it's a lot of what my most recent record is about is just like figuring out who to be, like, who am I if all of these things about my identity that I have really clung on to aren't there anymore?
Like, What is my life? You know, If I'm not like the person being congratulated on stage you know, like, and I don't know, I just, I'm really thankful that all of that stuff happened and brought me to where I am now cause music is for the first time in a long time really fun again. I just play it for fun.
like my shows recently have been better than I recall them ever being. I also think that's, Mindfulness, like to your point earlier. We're told that we need to be super self obsessed and like project this image of ourselves, but I'm convinced now That's actually not what people respond to they respond to like Generosity and a sort of lack of self on stage We have a unique job to do our job effectively at least the way I want to do it I have to be completely in the moment for the duration of the concert.
I have to go up there, and I have to just fully be in the songs, in the moment, not thinking about other shit, not bringing my baggage into it. And if I do that, then the audience does that, and then we're all complicit in this agreement that for an hour and a half, we're all just going to be in a present moment, and then we'll go back to our lives after that.
And it's becoming more and more clear to me. That the way to do that it's like meditation when I go on stage It's like just drop all of it. No ego. No fucking fear And just you know do it be in the moment.
[00:14:13] Aaron: speaking of books that I read when I was younger and haven't thought about in a while The piano player Kenny Warner has this book
[00:14:19] Robert: I love that book.
[00:14:20] Aaron: Yeah, I was just thinking about it the other day And it's very much that it's very much like being in the present and you know Experiencing the moment as it happens and being open to that
[00:14:28] Robert: phil
[00:14:29] Aaron: I've been thinking about that a lot.
[00:14:29] Robert: cook recommended that to me like a year ago and I read it and I loved it
[00:14:34] Aaron: It's incredible
[00:14:36] Robert: coincide and I love some of the exercises that he talks about just like Sitting down at the piano and just very effortlessly playing notes it's something that I started incorporating into my practice and now like, every morning I just sit down and just play sounds and listen to them, and it's just really fun.
[00:14:55] Aaron: Yeah, doing things so intentionally and With so much space like that, with so little effort, you can realize so much, whether it's, mental and psychological and like your attachment to notes or harmonies or like being right, at least for me, it's like, Oh, that's not right.
letting go of that drums are my first instrument. And so like, I had this teacher in college who he had me sit there and just play like quarter notes with every limb at the same time, like as slow as I could, like 20 beats a minute, and then just watch like what my body does, I didn't have to change anything if I didn't want to, but just like being aware of that and being in the moment and being present, it sucked, but When I was like, playing real music, after that, I was, in the flow, I was present, I was able to be there, and it was much more enjoyable.
[00:15:38] Robert: I do something very similar to that I still teach a good bit And I used to teach like professionally before I started touring. It was like my first job, you know, when I was like in high school My mom was a piano teacher, so I just was like, Oh, I'll teach guitar. And so I still have 50 or 60 students, mostly professional players that I just do over Zoom and not on any consistent basis, but just people that hit me up and are like, I want to do a lesson.
And one of the things that I focus on a lot is like this. Sort of Tai Chi, over exaggerated, just deliberate way of practicing. Especially when it comes to the right hand on the guitar. Bluegrass rhythm, for instance, or Django rhythm, or just articulating notes on an acoustic guitar.
when I practice that stuff, I practice this insane way. Metronome very slow.
Over exaggerated weight of the arm
hmm. Mm. The strings. So that like I can feel that the power is actually coming from gravity pushing my arm down instead of my wrist and Like the effect of doing that over and over really slowly is when you play something to tempo You're suddenly really loud because you like it is Tai Chi.
It's
like Being able to in a fight respond in real time because you
[00:16:51] Michaela: You did it so slowly.
[00:16:52] Robert: Movement over and over in a super exaggerated way, you know?
[00:16:56] Aaron: so
how would you apply this to then being on stage and having to sing a song and deliver lyrics and do that only sing like in gang vocals drench and reverb way in the back so Ithis is completely foreign to me
[00:17:07] Robert: this is like something that has taken me a long time to realize, and goes back to what we were talking about earlier. My favorite shows are the ones where things happen that I didn't expect to happen. where some improvisation occurs, especially on a tour.
I just got back from Europe, did two weeks, shows every night. And, you know, when you're doing shows every single night, solo, Every night certain tunes sound different than they did the night before. You might embrace just, like, how something has a lot of space.
Like it's got this really staccato. Thing in it that creates a lot of space between the notes and like one night the space will sound really loud to you And then the next night you might play the same passage kind of legato and I am NOT the best singer in the world, but my favorite stuff happens when I go outside of my comfort zone, and try to put the melody in a different place on a chorus I've sang a million times, or like, do weird runs. So, I wouldn't say it's like, there's one thing, but I know that I'm better when I take risks. Like, I know sometimes you'll fall, but the show in general is better when I'm in the mindset of just do it. Embrace something, get excited about something, and then go for it. Not trying to stick too, stringently to the form and I also think it like permits you to not feel like you can ever really fail at it If you're not trying to recreate What was on the record then who gives a fuck what it sounds like just go into what it is and be excited about Some character in performance that you're doing,
[00:18:36] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:18:37] Michaela: Totally. you said that, coming out of COVID and all the structural change in your team and your business and your identity and the depression, to get to where you're at now, where you said you feel like music is now feeling fun again, did just time pass or what were some of the things that you've done to help yourself heal and grow through that?
Yeah. Cause. you know, Were there real practices, like things that you had to do to reconnect with yourself and remind yourself of who you are regardless of the outside stuff.
[00:19:06] Robert: It's a huge sort of cumulative just series of things that all fell into place and more pointedly in the last six months as it pertains to the label stuff and the sort of structural changes in my career I made start my own record label and like I lived in Nashville, lived in Austin, was in New York for a little bit did all that and made the decision right at the beginning of the pandemic I want to move to Fort Worth.
My friend had a studio here and he invited me to come, partner with him on this thing and just start focusing on making music, producing bands and just like being in the studio. I kind of made this conscious shift with everything it's really scary. When you grow up with this idea that you're going to be Led Zeppelin at Madison Square Garden.
Like, That's what we all think as kids. Like, We see this picture of this is what I'm going to be doing at 30. And then when you fall short of that... In any way, which everyone pretty much falls short of that. Like, you know, like you have this readjustment of what your expectations and desires are.
And I think for a long time, I had this feeling as a younger man, seeing friends of mine who had put out their records themselves, left a label, started their own label. And I had this feeling of yeah, they fell off the face of the earth.
They're like, just maintaining their lateral progress.
They have the same amount of fans they did when they left, and things just don't ever grow. And I guess I just always thought of myself as an arrogant sort of thing. Like, well, I know I'm still on the rise. I'm still playing this game of cycles. the next record is gonna build on the last one, this idea of progress was just so ingrained in me.
That it was a real shock to jump out of it, just, comfortable and appreciative with where my career is at, which is fucking awesome
My life is really good, I can play music for a living, and like, have a beautiful home, and a studio, things are good but it took me a really long time, because everything in my mind was so comparative, it was like so and so is at this festival, they didn't fucking invite me. And, so and so's record I heard that somewhere, and has this magazine write up or whatever everything was so comparative that I feel like, until very recently, I didn't really appreciate how great all of this is.
So anyway, I think some of those shifts like, forcing me into this zone, where I have to look around and be like, this is actually really good and I don't really need Much more than this like I'll take it obviously if somebody wants to give me a ton of money like
[00:21:39] Michaela: That'd be great.
[00:21:40] Robert: Yeah.
But I'm not in this Like I'm good if it doesn't happen and if I just keep making records and keep doing this I'm gonna be good like it's fine so I think that helped a lot like getting ownership of my own shit and Having that feeling of if I put this out and it doesn't do what I think it does I'm the only one to blame So like, my expectations need to adjust around that.
I think for years it was really easy for me to be like, I should have been bigger. My label didn't do a good job. Or my manager didn't do a good job. Or these things didn't all fall into place. And I always had someone to blame for all of the reasons that I fell short. And now I'm kind of like...
In lieu of blaming myself, I'm gonna just readjust my expectations to be like, no, this is a success. I did a great job.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:32] Aaron: yeah.
[00:22:33] Robert: I was just gonna say feel like this is the most common story for most people. That's why we're interested in the conversations for later because I could name like 25 people just in the like Americana like surrounding Nashville, whatever scene of like people that we probably all have in common of how many had the exciting like got the indie label and then now are not working with them and are either on their own or trying to work with 30 Tigers or whatever and have gone through all the same stuff where you're like, Oh, that was their year.
[00:23:04] Michaela: And then ride into this kind of more. painful, but then, but yeah, into the sunset,
[00:23:13] Robert: but
[00:23:13] Michaela: now the 25 year olds are like, cool, I'm not going to be you guys though, which is totally what I did at 20 some years old too. Yeah. I'm like, I hope I'm going to be bigger. do the same thing where I'm just like, I thought I was going to be in a way different place than I am now. And then I'm also like. What the fuck? We have an insanely good life. We have this beautiful house. We have a recording studio that we built. We don't work in any other capacity than for music. Like I teach and coach music.
I still tour and sell merch and like all of that stuff is my income. this is the dream.
[00:23:46] Robert: It's crazy. I was just in Norway the other day. I had this little show in a smaller town that I hadn't played before. And a buddy of mine was opening the tour. He had never toured Europe and we're good friends. And so we're traveling together. And it was exciting to see the tour through his eyes.
Cause he's like, this is fucking awesome. It's rad. And I think last time I went to Europe, I was like, I'm never doing this again. I can't take this anymore. Like I'm losing money and this, you know, it was just like, I hated it. And we had this show we get to the venue and I kinda didn't know what to expect.
I was like, small town, like, in my mind, all these negative things just started coming up. And then, the promoter was like, we're gonna cook you guys dinner. And wasn't expecting much, I was kinda like, just give me a buyout and I'll get pizza or whatever. But, we sit down and... My writer says now like something local that you think we should check out, while we're here That's like a part of the writer and they made us this Amazing dinner of like fermented fish.
It's called rockfisk and Then the show that night was maybe my favorite show of the whole tour like everything about it just made me feel so taken care of and so appreciated and So I'm journaling about this the next morning this is just such a fucking blessing and such a gift and I'm thinking about it in Terms of like these people are really taking care of me This is so awesome as if it's a new thing and then I start really taking inventory of no This is the way It's been pretty much this whole time and I'm just now Like growing up enough to appreciate the fact that pretty much everywhere I go people are really excited I'm there and they bend over backwards to make sure that we have a good time and like What the fuck is wrong with me?
Like, why would I not appreciate this? And then starting to just see the world through that lens with every show. After that day on tour, I was just noticing, like, how nice people are. And how cool it is that we get to play music for a living.
What was the thing that was feeding the not appreciating it? Was it that you thought it should have been, like, at a better stage, at a better place with more people? I think at the root of it, it would be that I felt like People didn't like me and that's why more people aren't coming to the show, you know That's at the core of it. But obviously we don't say that we project it on everyone else We think oh, this is a shitty town.
This is a shitty venue. Put it out there any way we can so that we don't have to take, a real look at the feeling Which is that we're inferior Somehow we don't belong here. We actually suck, that's at the core of it. and you know without sounding too egotistical like in my case I know I don't suck, like for a long time I've really focused on music I know that I can play music I am good at music that was never what I thought but I did have this suspicion that something about my personality was just wrong.
That people just didn't really identify or relate to me. Not because I couldn't play guitar well or sing well. It was like, no, something about my perspective is off putting to people in a way that means that I'm never going to have a big fan base. And I could look at any other artist and be like see, they're relatable people like them.
And I think I had also constructed this whole system in my mind. Also with ego about how, Oh it's, really what I actually thought in this sounds fucked up is in the back of my head, I'd be like, Oh I guess my music is just too smart for most people, you know, like, or she like that, like fucking layers and layers of insanity to just make yourself feel good,
[00:27:30] Aaron: it's crazy how we can weep these stories so quickly and so subconsciously, too.
[00:27:34] Robert: yeah.
[00:27:35] Aaron: There's a lot of layers to those onions there.
[00:27:37] Robert: I know, and I'm trying to now deconstruct all of that and just like enjoy music.
[00:27:43] Michaela: Yeah. Do you go to therapy, if you feel comfortable answering, okay.
[00:27:47] Robert: and I'll tell you full disclosure, cause I actuallylove talking about this stuff. I think everyone should go to therapy. I see a therapist once a week.
And I have off and on, kind of my whole adult life been interested But really in beginning of summer, so in the last six months I've just really started trying to get my head together. Because I was getting just very depressed and I didn't even realize it for a long time.
And so a couple things, I started seeing this new therapist who I love, and it's like CBT just like cognitive behavioral therapy.
[00:28:20] Michaela: Okay. Mm hmm.
[00:28:22] Robert: Just adjusting your view, adjusting your frames, and finding coping mechanisms to deal with things like anxiety. And really at the root of it, which there's a lot of correlation to meditation, is not identifying with thoughts and not identifying with emotions, like not having to be them.
I'm not an expert on CBT, but so far that's what I feel like I'm getting from it, is that, you have these things that just happen. Anxiety just happens to you. It isn't you. You don't have to be it, but it can happen and you can see it, and when you step back from it let it pass.
Also another thing that I can only recommend, Anecdotally, but I am so glad I tried and I had numerous friends who for years were like, you should try this, you should try this. I was always very resistant. I take Zoloft and I fucking love it. I'm like, it's, it's the best thing that has ever happened to me.
I take a low dose, like 50 milligrams of Zoloft and it just was night and day. I feel like as soon as I started it. I just had space to like do all of this other stuff I don't know, I've always thought of myself as like a person who exercises and a person who meditates but if I really look at the last 15 years.
I'm a person who does those things for like a month, and then gets drunk for like three months.And then I do those things for like a month, and then I just like fuck off and play video games for a month. the larger pattern is that I don't make good habits of doing those things that I care deeply about.
And since I started taking the Zoloft, I've just been able to have this level of consistency of... haBits and emotions that I am like, whether I stay on it forever, or I get off at some point and I have all of these great habits that are now like a real strong part of my identity, my day to day, like I think it's a net positive I'm sure some people, it's such a difficult thing to talk about it because people are so varying opinions on it.
But to me it's just been nothing but positive,
[00:30:29] Aaron: especially with people like our age, there's such a stigma around it. 'cause at least for me, I remember it must've been like sometime around junior high or so, there was like it was in the news all the time just being like the Prozac generation and just like throwing like happy pills at people the more people we talk to the more I find that people are using Medication as a tool so they've been in therapy They've tried things and it's the same thing they just sticking this feedback loop and it's like some stilts that help you get out of this rut and set some good habits.
So, you know, It's not for everybody, but if you can use it with a conscious mind of like, this is a tool to help me, like you said, open up, form better habits.
[00:31:03] Michaela: had a therapist who I'd worked with for several years. Ask me if I was open to it. And like a year ago my mom had a stroke when I was five months pregnant.
It was the most life altering, like devastating. insane thing of my life and I was in a deep depression like also postpartum new mom, COVID and my therapist asked if I was open to it and I was like no and I changed therapists and then my next therapist like six months in was like Would you be open to considering this?
And I was like, okay well, you're the second person. And then we had a guest on this podcast who had the same experience you did was like, I've done all these things in my life and had a really holistic approach to trying to heal myself. And I was so anti prescription tried it and it really helped me because also I'm doing all this other stuff.
And the way my therapist described it was. For a time, the medication can help your Brain choose a different pathway and develop those habits and like form that neural pathway that then makes the decision Okay, I feel depressed today I'm gonna actually choose things that are gonna help me get out of this and I'm gonna go on a walk and I'm gonna Journal and all those things rather than I feel depressed I'm gonna get back in bed and watch Netflix and eat candy and I will attest that my experience working with a provider who really worked on what would be the best medication for me and the dose and all that stuff.
It was life changing. It got me out of my fog, and I'm currently weaning off of it and thankful that I continue to feel really good, but it helped me make changes in my life to create a schedule and practices and create support systems that I now feel like I'm able to not just get through each day, but Really thrive and feel connected to my work and build things and a year ago I was just not in that place.
I was like walking through a heavy dense fog like even good things felt blah
[00:33:00] Robert: Yeah. I think more people need to hear this though, because Like you said, maybe it's just our generation, but my reaction Was the same, I said out loud So many times, to so many friends I'm really stressed, I'm really depressed but I don't even think I internalized, I think I just said it as a habit of oh yeah, I'm so busy, my life is so stressful, I'm so depressed I'm really negative, I'm really down on things, but like, I didn't really internalize oh, I actually am depressed, this is not just a funny thing that I say.
You know this like I think in some ways it was like the humor part of me used it as oh Yeah, this is shitty like oh this again. oh, it's raining again whatever it is It was like this thing and then a friend of mine a really good friend came and visited And she was the one that was just like will you just for me try it for like two weeks?
And I was just like I just don't I don't know I like she's like well is anything else you're doing Working, and she's like if you don't like it then don't take it try it for two weeks and don't take it so I was like, okay, fuck it. I'll do it. I don't care You know like not wanting to feel like I was, resistant to do anything I don't even know now that I feel it I don't know.
I'm sure it's working. I know what I don't feel, and what I don't feel is like the same hard edge of anxiety and panic and I'm able to like, check mygut responses, my intuition in this different way where like, when things come at me, My initial reaction for a long time has been, like, irritation, I don't know, disdain.
And I'm starting to be able to fix that, just with everything. Like, Not fucking react that way. I just think I thought it was, for a while like, Larry David. Funny. go through this life constantly irritated and neurotic and like, everyone's too
your your personalityYeah, totally. And at some point I was like, this personality sucks.
[00:34:58] Aaron: it's this thing that like, I see it a lot with people that choose to make a career out of their art, it's so hard, and it's such a grind, all the time, at every level, that you just get used to it. And you're like, no, this is just life, it's supposed to be hard, it's supposed to be a struggle like, sucks.
And you you joke about it. It's like, yeah, that's fucking sucks, but I'm stuck with it. But like, it doesn't have to be.
[00:35:17] Robert: yeah,
[00:35:18] Aaron: what you're saying. Like you were saying with your change of point of view and embracing like more gratitude and be like, no, this actually works.
There's I reference her a lot on here, but Tara Brock she's a psychologist.
[00:35:29] Michaela: psychologist and a Western Buddhism teacher of mindfulness. would love her.
[00:35:34] Aaron: Yeah. So she has she gives talks all over and she has a podcast, but there was one I was listening to.
This was like a bunch of years ago where she's like, you know, we're struggling and Oh, this is a problem. This is a problem. when you realize that just ask yourself like, what if this isn't a problem? What if this doesn't bother me? Like you were saying what if what I'm doing is totally fine and it's working and it's good.
And then you're like, Oh shit. Well, It is. Wow, check that out.
[00:35:55] Michaela: that makes me think of I remember years ago, Robert, there was an article with you in the New York Times not just about you, but about the realities of touring. And this was like, now people are really talking about this.
But I remember seeing this article years ago and thinking, Oh, wow, he's talking about this. And I was like, barely had even started touring. But you were talking about how... The financial disparity I remember so clearly that you were like, I would have thought, given how many fans I have, that I would be making a lot more money than I am.
And so I think a lot about how the economics of touring and indie artists is really challenging, even when you get to certain levels where you're selling a lot of tickets. And how it's become. Kind of what you were saying, this acceptable like, oh, you just lose money on tour. That's what you're expected to do. And shifting the mindset of like, why is that an accepted practice? And do we have to do that? and how attention is like the more valuable currency in this than actual capital currency. And what we think is perceived as success because someone's getting attention and getting some press and maybe getting some tours.
But Are they drowning in debt and is there stress and depression coming from also the fact that their basic needs aren't being met? Because they aren't able to stay in, clean places on tour or they're like, How am I gonna pay off this credit card debt when I get home?
[00:37:19] Robert: god forbid something happens and they don't have health insurance
[00:37:23] Michaela: yeah.
[00:37:23] Robert: there's no infrastructure for any of us. just like just figure it out. You have a good job
[00:37:29] Michaela: Yeah. God forbid something happens, you can't afford your health care, and then also can't tour to make any money. So what, has your, progression with your relationship to that, especially starting a family?
[00:37:43] Robert: Yeah. I still in a wildly irresponsible way. like, I still, you know, and I don't know if this is just always gonna be the case, but I feel like no matter how well I do, I always have just enough to pay for everything. Pretty much always just whatever I have is whatever everything costs, and I don't know how you fix that.
That's maybe something that I need to learn. And, you know, it is scarier with kids, this is going to sound really irresponsible. But I remember when we had our first kid, thinking okay, when I have this kid, my brain is going to change. Everyone told me it would. And my priorities are going to shift.
And I think you think when you don't have a kid that. What people mean when they say everything's gonna change is that suddenly you're gonna become responsible with money or something. You're gonna like, get your shit together and your priorities are gonna change. Like, I don't know, you think of the classic thing I'm not gonna tour anymore, I'm gonna get a jo I'm gonna get a different job that's gonna be stable But I kinda had the opposite experience in some ways And it's the same with friends that have kids and then you never see them again.
They don't go out to shows, they don't hang out part of this is my own emotional baggage, but like, I come from this very small town, and in many ways, I feel like most of my life has been trying to find a larger community and more open minded sort of home, like different ideas, And exciting things in art and music and all these things that I went to great lengths to make a part of my life.
And when I had a kid, I had this feeling of now I have a reason to have all this stuff. I don't want to stay inside with the kid. I want to like, show them this cool life that I have. And as it pertains to money, definitely making bills and food is, important, but more so,my decisions.
are driven by this other sense of what do I want my kids to see me as? And in some ways I want them to see me as an artist. if anything, like some compromises that I made early on in my career to like do things that I thought were going to make me more successful or that someone told me might make me more successful.
They're just not on the table for me anymore, you know, like now it's no I want to make art because these kids are looking at me and figuring out what the world is going to look
Yeah.
What it is that they could be and I don't want them to think well I should probably be a compromising Fucking self obsessed, Instagrammer you know what I'm saying, not to say that all Instagrammers are self obsessed But like I want them to look at me and be like my dad really enjoys playing music and writing Music on paper and making albums and playing shows that mean something to people like I just want all the stuff that I'm doing to Be equitable in this sense that they're gonna see it kind of
[00:40:25] Michaela: Not watching you make reels all day.
[00:40:27] Robert: Yeah, totally
[00:40:28] Aaron: Yeah. do you know who Layla McCalla is? She's a amazing songwriter and cello player and banjo player. She was in the Carolina Chocolate Drops for a while and our native daughters. she makes music in a really amazing way.
Yeah. Like she. She got a commission from Duke University to go there and, you know, worked with researchers at Duke and wrote this whole historical record around that. we talked a lot about being artist parents and how demonstrating an artistic life to your kids is a way to shift this like capitalistic paradigm and show them that you don't have to enter this pipeline and ride this pipeline.
you can create your own existence.
[00:41:04] Michaela: It's like a form of activism by raising children way that's not the norm of, okay, I have to work for a corporation and make money and that's the priority. Andhave to like try and remember the way that she said it, but it was so like, Oh wow, it really made raising children not just about yourself, but about like your contribution to trying to impact positive change culturally and societally.
Of not just raising humans to be more cogs in the wheel, but showing them a different life is possible. That's focused around art and values that you and your partner nurture.
[00:41:41] Robert: that's cool. I want to, I'll listen to that episode. I've never really talked about it, you know, or like, had words to really describe it, but yeah, I do think I want them to see money coming from things that I think are valuable and feel good about. I don't want them to see me just purely transactional.
Money is a tool. And it's a way that we decide something has value, and I want those things to line up with my values too, you know? yeah it's really interesting. And my kids, I don't know, it's the coolest thing ever. Like Buddy came with me on the bus over the summer for a couple days, and he went last weekend.
He's only five, but I have taken him to shows since he was a baby. And I don't bring a tour manager or a merch person or anyone to watch him. He just comes with me and we stayed in Hotel last weekend and he fell asleep while I was playing the show in a chair and then you know like we went upstairs and Watched the angry birds movie till 3 a.
m. Like he woke up at midnight and but like he helps me load in and he helped me set up the merch and he like helped me make the little signs I don't know. It's really fun. It's
[00:42:49] Aaron: Yeah, we toured with our daughter, too, and she loves
[00:42:52] Michaela: we have pictures of her like, at, One years old, like helping me set up merch at City Winery and like backstage at Harley Strictly and like she toured Europe with us and yeah, and it's, we think about that all the time because I'm always stressed about Money and making enough money, but I haven't had another job besides music and teaching music for, I don't know, decade or something and there's not like another option. And then when I walk it back, I'm like, Oh, this is ingrained in me of I'm supposed to, I don't know, have a stockpile of money or be able to buy a million dollar house or whatever. And I'm like, for what though? because of the way our lives are and that we work for ourselves, we spend so much time together as a family unit.
Like we do everything together and we get to experience the world together and Georgia gets to see bands come and stay at our house. And like, band from Norway, Georgia.
[00:43:44] Robert: Yeah, it's so pretty. That was my grandmother's name.
[00:43:46] Michaela: Oh, nice. Yeah, but it's a beautiful life and there's so many different ways to raise kids, but it's just been ingrained of you have kids, you have to make sure you're making money.
[00:43:56] Aaron: The thing that I've learned, having a kid is money doesn't mean shit to kids. These stories in this rat race that we have ingrained in ourselves doesn't matter to them.
Like, The number one currency for them is attention. whether you give them attention or whatever you give your attention to, And they see you give your attention to they're like that's really valuable wow, dad really likes doing the dishes.
He does that a lot or whatever it is, like I want help help. And so she loves like, she learned how to make espresso when she was like less than 18 months because like we drink a lot of coffee. And so she saw it a lot and she's like, I want to grind those beans. Yeah. So like, she like figured out how to do that, It ties back into what you were saying about wanting your kids to, experience that you're an artist and that is something that you can do with your life.
And it's just like, where you put attention, I guess I'm trying to say it'sa good spotlight to put on your own life.
[00:44:45] Robert: Yeah,
[00:44:46] Aaron: where are you spending your time? Where are you spending your attention?
[00:44:49] Robert: it's so tough last night, my wife had a thing in dallas so she had to leave kids got home and I was gonna make this dinner, so I started cooking, and Buddy's really obsessed with this video game, Minecraft. Which is just like, all kids his age are obsessed with it. He literally didn't even know what it was, and is like, I love Minecraft.
I'm like, you've never even seen Minecraft. You don't even know what it is. You know, You don't have a game console, you don't even fucking know what it is, but he wants like, Minecraft backpack, and I think it's just kids at school, So anyway. We did get Minecraft on the phone, because it's cool, and you just build stuffI'm not like a Luddite.
I don't think that kids should never interact with technology, and that we should have some What was that movie? Where the kids live out in the woods.
[00:45:34] Michaela: Mr. Fantastic or something?
[00:45:36] Robert: Yeah. As much as I would like that to be our reality, it's not. And everyone I know, regardless of how good of parents they are, turns the fucking TV on
[00:45:45] Michaela: Oh my god. Yes.
[00:45:46] Robert: done.
[00:45:47] Michaela: Yes.
[00:45:47] Robert: Yeah
it's totally fine. But anyway, we were turned on these Minecraft videos, which I really don't like him watching.
Because they're just videos of these kids that play the game and they talk about it. And Buddy loves them. And he's watching this for a while, I make dinner, he comes and eats dinner. And then I'm like, okay, it's time to turn it off. And he starts throwing a fit. And is just like emotional and, they can't regulate their emotions yet.
And I was like, dude, I haven't seen you all day. I just want to hang out with you. And he's like, well, I just want to watch one more video. This is like a lot maybe to talk about on the podcast and maybe a lot to tell my child now that I'm thinking about it. But I was like, when I was a kid, my dad wasn't around.
I didn't really have a dad. He bailed when I was very young. when I was a kid, I really wish my dad had wanted to hang out with me. And all I want to do is hang out with you. I love that you like these videos, could we do something together and hang out? And he thought about it for a minute, and he was like, Just let me, can I watch one more?
And I was like, yeah, go ahead, do whatever you want. And so he goes and he watches, I put the other kid down to bed, And then I get back, and He's like, what do you want to do? And I was like, do you want to turn it off? And he's like, yeah, let's turn it off. And he helped me make egg salad, And then we played a game of chess, And we stayed up till probably, I don't know, 11 o'clock, just hanging out and talking. then he just completely passed out, but I just was like trying to navigate in my mind I want to be like turn that fucking shit off It's rotting your brain trying to figure out how to do it in a way that like they actually get and sure enough hanging out playing chess came alive in this way It was more fun for him than watching a video.
You know what I mean?
[00:47:27] Michaela: it's the same as with us. Like, I feel like at the end of the day, you're so tired. And I'm like, I just wanna put on a TV show and fall asleep. But then like, if we're like, wait, no, let's sit and talk, or let's play a board game, I'm like, Ugh, I'm tired. But then once you start doing it, your brain is oh yeah.
I don't want to just numb out by like sitting on the couch scrolling Instagram for 30 minutes and feeling a million different emotions rapidly and like now I'm anxious and I can't go to sleep. Like that would be really nice, it's just, those things are made to be addictive. So yeah, it's challenging because kids can learn things from TV shows and videos and all that stuff.
So it's. a balance in trying to figure that stuff out. I'm curious because I ask everyone this question. What was the response when you had your first kid from your business people in music?
[00:48:14] Robert: Nobody really said anything, but at that point I had already pretty firmly established that I was not someone who took any input kindly, um.
Okay. some boundaries had been drawn already where think if anyone had apprehensions they wouldn't have been comfortable expressing them. Um.
[00:48:32] Aaron: I love that.
[00:48:33] Robert: Like I said though, I've grown up a lot and I am a much softer, kinder person than I was a few years ago.
Yeah.
but I think right around the time we found out we were having Buddy, I made a decision to limit all my touring. I was like, look, I don't care how it works. You got to figure out how to make it work.
I'm going to go on tour for Max. Two weeks and then I have to be home for a minimum of three weeks like that's just how it has to work I can't go on month long tours anymore and like Outside of that, I would love for anyone to explain to me how it's more cost effective to tour for a month than it is to
[00:49:07] Michaela: I know. I don't get it. I don't get it.
[00:49:09] Robert: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:10] Michaela: are you still working with that agent?
[00:49:11] Robert: he let me go. He was a really good friend, and I love him to death, one of the best agents on the planet and at some point I just think I was asking him to Do insane shit. for no money, I'm like, hey Can you book me a tour of jazz clubs all over the world for?
400 a night or whatever and he's looking like massive stadium tours and he's like what you want me to hit up a of venues that have never had a solo artist you know It's insane what I ask sometimes of people For very little reward but I found a new agent who actually Joe Pug recommended and I love him to death his name's Alex and he hates when I talk about him in any sort of like public facing capacity So I really hope he sees this because
[00:49:52] Aaron: So those, yeah, everybody that's listening, we'll put a link to Alex's page in the show notes. With his, with his email.
[00:49:57] Robert: But he's fantastic and I don't know, just in line with where my head's at. He's been really changing the way I think about my touring business. Like a lot of markets where I would normally have been like, okay, I'm going to get a guarantee and I'm going to play at this venue that I've played at a million times.
He's like, why don't we play this other place and like do a door deal? We know that a hundred people are going to show up to see you in any given market. Why don't we just take a door deal? if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But consistently, I've been showing up to play these rooms and get more money than I thought I would get and more money than I would have made if I had taken the guarantee.
And just having some like, confidence at this point in my career with where it's at. I don't know, he's really helped me kind of reframe that. And the show's, they've been really cool.
[00:50:45] Michaela: That's great. Cool. It's a good reminder that there's a lot of people out there on the business side as well that have all different ethos and mindsets. There are agents who are like, yeah, you don't need to be doing six week, month long tours. Like you could divide it up and have like more open mindedness about how to structure a touring career.
So it's a good reminder that it's not only like a certain level of. Key players I always ask the specific family question because as I keep pulling people Men have very different experiences than women like every woman who's a solo artist Not a woman who's in a band but everyone who's a solo artist that I've talked to you that's had kids has been like Oh yeah, I got phased out.
I got a talking to. Or I got, just egregious shit. And then so many men are like, nobody said anything. Weird.
[00:51:37] Robert: Well, my wife I feel like that was something that just reinforced this idea that I think is lurking in the back of everyone's mind, but I don't know, there's just this feeling like, Ugh, I'm going to have a kid and my life is over. And I feel like everywhere you turn, people are reinforcing that in a way that is just notequal in any way.
you know, I think it's understood that I'm going to do whatever it takes for me to do to get money to pay for the children and that she's going to stay home and that's just I don't know. It's definitely not the way that we've chosen to do all this.
[00:52:10] Aaron: No, same.
[00:52:11] Robert: she travels a ton for work as well.
And was just gone all last week. And we've figured it out. And we're respectful of each other's pursuits.
she's a filmmaker and has a short film and a film festival. So this morning she had a screening at this theater and I popped by for a second, but couldn't stay. And yeah, she's got her own shit. She's working all the time and we just figure out
there's so many corollaries between her job and mine. It's not about money. She just went and did Bushwick Film Festival last week, which, when you go to a film festival, there's no money in it. You're gone for a week so that you can go show your film and meet people and stuff.
And I think in a more transactional mindset, both for my job and hers, we would be looking at things like you're gonna leave for a week, how much money are you bringing in? And I think if either of us looked at life and finances that way, we'd never be able to do anything creative, it's like there's different currencies, We both have to feel like whole people and artists, for the benefit of our relationship and our children like, we both need to pursue things we care about.
[00:53:12] Michaela: and also when both are artists having any mindset of like, whose art makes more money is like never helpful. And I feel like that's something we've. Really worked on and been aware of and I'm so thankful, like especially the first year of having a baby where like, the mother is if you're nursing and you're so connected and like, your body is just not your own.
And to have a partner who's okay, but you also need to remember that you love other things like. You love music. You do like these other things. That's not in the past. This is a period of time. This thing that might cost money is actually really important for you and a value and like, those kind of conversations of yeah, we should pay for a babysitter and you should go to a soccer game because that makes you like
[00:53:58] Aaron: Yeah, there's been a few times where like,I spent my time here in my studio and we're 40 feet behind our house. I was already pretty antisocial when the pandemic hit, you know, and it just like is gone since then. So since we've had a kid, there's been multiple times where like, all of a sudden I'll just get like an email and Michaela had bought me tickets to a show.
She's like, you got to go
[00:54:14] Robert: Yeah.
[00:54:15] Aaron: leave. Oh, right. Yeah. this is huge. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:54:18] Robert: Yeah.
[00:54:19] Michaela: Man well, thank you so much this was such a fun, enjoyable conversation for being so open about everything andI get really excited, especially about like young artists in their 20s who are fans of this podcast and listen to this stuff.
And they're like, Oh, I'm like, if you guys can approach this with a little healthier, maybe like the cycle of don't become an alcoholic.
[00:54:39] Robert: That's one we didn't talk about,
but I Loved drinking for a very long time, it's just was like a big part of my life And I always was like I should really reign this in I should really reign this in and only in the last Little bit it's weird now because I do feel like that part of my life where I woke up hungover and had to figure out who was going to drive after a show, it feels like it's in the rearview mirror for me, and I had this feeling of waking up from this 15 year dream of being like, what the fuck was I doing?
[00:55:14] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Mm
[00:55:16] Robert: do,
I can't say that, you know, who knows, knock on wood, maybe my situation will change but this most recent time of just kind of quitting everything and refocusing on my mind it just feels like the new program. This is kind of how my life just has to be and I like it a lot better. I think I had to like, Just really realize how much I fucking hated it or something,
[00:55:40] Aaron: I kind of had the same thing. a handful of years ago. And for me, it that kind of like wake up call of not use like a cliche term, but like, I would drink or like, smoke doobies all day because I wanted this result. But then I like finally realized like, Oh, this result is never coming.
I'm like, constantly trying to get to that finish line that just isn't there. And same thing, like I found like,Exploring my mind and journaling and doing therapy or whatever it was self growth in that way actually got me to that finish line and I got hooked on that and like it just caught I Drink again now, but like once a month, you know I just don't want to it's way more fun to like go out and see friends and like just hang out
[00:56:17] Michaela: I think when you change your body chemistry as well by abstaining from it At least for some people it can be a really positive of oh, this isn't good for me.
as soon as I start to put it back in there, my body's like, no, you don't need that.
[00:56:29] Robert: yeah, and I want to be careful too because I feel likeThere's so much I realized I couldn't do that anymore, and I hit rock bottom, it's, it was less of that for me.
It's not like there was a precipitating event. It's just like, I think after really reflecting on it for a long time, there's just not time to do everything that I want to do in life. And
[00:56:49] Michaela: a good way to put it.
[00:56:50] Robert: it eats up a lot of my time, and I just don't see the benefit anymore. we talked about Sam Harris at the beginning of the thing like just when you're really spending a lot of time and energy focusing on music or Meditation or whatever like there just becomes less and less time And I just don't see a place for it in my life anymore and I would just encourage anyone who's feeling like You're falling into the habit of just every night.
I drink to feel better because I drank last night So I drink again and like you can just stop that cycle obviously people have like, addiction issues and everyone's in a different place. But like, for me it was just really realizing, I don't want
Yeah. That was the real mental switch, other times that I've quit, I've quit because I was like, I need to get this under control, I'm gonna quit for four months, or whatever.
And this time it's just felt completely different, cause I don't like it.
[00:57:44] Aaron: Yeah, it's a different thing when you're quitting based on shoulds and then you're quitting based on desire To me like what's resonating for me and same thing I never hit like rock bottom in like the book sense It was really for me what you were saying about being present on stage and then also like having a new agent We're just like fuck it.
Let's try something different You can always go back to what you're doing. It's like, if you do what you've always done, you're going to get what you've always gotten. So like, fuck it. Try something else. And so I just tried the complete sobriety and I was like, Oh, this is awesome. This works way better for me.
[00:58:15] Robert: Yeah, totally. And everyone's
[00:58:17] Aaron: easily go back to like drinking tequila every night and like waking up and smoking doobie every morning. But like, chances are that probably won't work for me in the future. It didn't in the past. But like, maybe it will. Who
[00:58:26] Robert: How old are you? Are
[00:58:28] Aaron: I'm 38.
[00:58:29] Robert: 38?
[00:58:30] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:58:30] Robert: I had this realization, this is the only thing that I haven't tried.
[00:58:35] Aaron: Exactly.
[00:58:35] Michaela: And I think you were 35 when
[00:58:37] Aaron: you It would have been. I was like 33, 34. Yeah. Somewhere in there. Yeah.
[00:58:41] Robert: and there's a difference. I think they call it, in the program or whatever, dry drunk versus being sober. Those things are different. I just had never been sober in my whole adult life really since I was like 15. And it kind of was the same thing. I was like I should just try this oh, this suits my personality way better.
[00:58:58] Michaela: Well, And probably at least what I found when I was in the height of drinking, I wasn't even asking myself anymore if I wanted it. It was just like every single night, of course. And then when I was like, wait, Do I want this my intent with stopping drinking for a period of time and then coming back to it was to have a more mindful relationship with it to not automatically drink every time somebody offered me a drink or every time I went to a bar, but to really check in with myself and be like, do I want that?
So then if I do decide to have a glass of wine or like a nice cocktail and I'm like I want to really enjoy this because I want to make sure my body actually wants this and it's not just a habit or trying to get to a certain feeling or escape feelings it was trying to have like a very mindful just also sense of yourself of like what does my body need right now and not just sure, okay, yeah, I'll just drink five drinks right now and Be hungover tomorrow and
[00:59:55] Robert: yeah. Totally. I'll go on a run at six in the morning and my body will be fucking screaming at me and I'll still in my mind be like, it's fine. It's
[01:00:03] Aaron: This is working. This is working.
[01:00:06] Robert: Yeah.
[01:00:06] Aaron: Yeah,
[01:00:07] Michaela: okay. Well, Thank you so much. We'll let you go since we've gone past our hour and we really appreciate yeah
[01:00:14] Robert: I love it. Thanks, guys.
[01:00:15] Michaela: a good time.
[01:00:16] Robert: the kid. You're gonna do the same?
[01:00:17] Aaron: Yeah, our kid's napping. We start this in during nap time,
[01:00:20] Robert: Awesome. Well, Thank you guys so much for having me. I'll see y'all soon.
[01:00:24] Aaron: Thanks for hanging with us.
[01:00:25] Robert: guys.