Samantha Crain has released 8 records, started touring at 19, eventually supporting artists such as The Avett Brothers, Neutral Milk Hotel, Brandi Carlile, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Gregory Alan Isakov, The Mountain Goats, and MANY others, as well as joining First Aid Kit for an appearance on 'Conan', and self-producing many of her own records, as well as records for other artists. We explore the power of asking questions, both as a way to learn more in craft and business and as a means of self-advocacy in business dealings, we talk about the positives and negatives of growing a substantial career in a non-music town (Norman, OK in her instance), the many benefits of a meditation practice, and much more in this wide-ranging conversation.
Samantha Crain has released 8 records, started touring at 19, eventually supporting artists such as The Avett Brothers, Neutral Milk Hotel, Brandi Carlile, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Gregory Alan Isakov, The Mountain Goats, and MANY others, as well as joining First Aid Kit for an appearance on 'Conan', and self-producing many of her own records, as well as records for other artists. We explore the power of asking questions, both as a way to learn more in craft and business and as a means of self-advocacy in business dealings, we talk about the positives and negatives of growing a substantial career in a non-music town (Norman, OK in her instance), the many benefits of a meditation practice, and much more in this wide-ranging conversation.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:03] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And if you are a returning listener, thank you so much for coming back if this is your first time. Thanks for checking us out, and I hope you enjoy
[00:00:13] Aaron: the episode.
Yeah, those of you guys that have heard us before, we have a simple ask for you. We like to Pride ourselves on not being journalists. We are musicians talking to musicians and we like to say that we are a show that is from our community for our community. And so if you have a favorite episode, if you could just take a second and pass that on to somebody that might not know who we are, It's the best way for us to get in front of new listeners, and the more listeners we have, the more guests we can have, and the longer we can keep doing this, and the more ideas we can share back with you guys.
[00:00:42] Michaela: like Aaron said, we're not your typical music promo podcast, we're not music journalists.
We are trying to have artist to artist conversations about how to survive in this career, but more importantly how to stay... Sane, healthy, connected to our creativity and the thing that got us started on this path in the first place, which is music, all while building a career based on our
[00:01:07] Aaron: art. and we do that by focusing on what is within our control because as you know, a lot in this business is outside of our control.
And so we talk about our mindsets, we talk about creativity, we talk about tools and routines That our guests have found through years of building a career around their art. And we like to ask them the general question, whether it's clear or not. What do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
[00:01:31] Michaela: Yeah, today's episode is with Samantha Crane. She is from Norman, Oklahoma And still in Oklahoma one of the topics of our conversation is choosing to build an indie music career not living in a music city
[00:01:45] Aaron: and how that can be both a blessing and a curse.
She brings up a previous episode that we had with Mikayla as a guest with Erin Ray, Kelsey Walden, and Caroline Spence where she mentions that she didn't have a group like that. And so she didn't know to ask questions and didn't know what was normal and what was not.
[00:02:00] Michaela: Yeah, I think this episode of Samantha is a really great exploration of growing up through the music business.
She started touring when she was 19 years old and it's really cool to hear where she's at right now in a really self empowered place in her work, in her career, which is exciting. And as a fan, I've listened to her music for a long time. I still remember the first time I listened to her record probably 15 years ago.
I'm so excited to see what she continues to create, but she already has an incredible resume. She has toured for years with people like the Ava Brothers, Neutral Milk Hotel, the Mountain Goats, Brandi Carlile, Watch House, Buffy St. Marie, John Moreland. The list goes on and on and on. She also has self produced many of her records and started producing others in 2014.
Her music has been on TV. She's written for films. She's. A really incredible, creative powerhouse.
[00:02:54] Aaron: Yeah. As Mikayla said, this is a really great episode about the whole lifespan of a, career. We started talking about self booking and playing, upwards of 200 to 250 shows a year, all the way to having agents both in the US and in Europe, and really picking and choosing what shows work for you as an artist and as a human.
it's one of those conversations where time just evaporated. And we ended up mentioning quite a few previous episodes of our show in this episode. They're all listed in the show notes below.
If you want to go check out those past episodes that maybe you've heard, or maybe you haven't, but without further ado, here's our episode with Samantha Crane.
[00:03:33] Michaela: thank you for being here. It's crazy to me that we've never met in person. Because I think we have a million mutual friends. And have probably toured with a lot of the same people. I think you've toured with Courtney and... Bonnie Laid Horseman and Watch House, same stuff
[00:03:50] Samantha: I have the same sort of thing with, do you know Joanna Samuels?
mm hmm, So I've never met her either, but we just exist like on the same planes. We just like following each other's footsteps of tours and like that sort of thing. But that is the nature of this, I assume.
[00:04:06] Aaron: yeah,
[00:04:06] Michaela: But yeah, and I discovered your music, Samantha, a long time ago when I was or right out of college.
I worked at Nonesuch, and we worked with Ramseyer because of Carolina Chocolate Drops. So I became aware of your music and I have a vivid memory of riding the Metro North, one winter, maybe I was like going up, maybe you were on tour and playing Dance Flurry or something like that, and I was riding the train and I was listening to your record.
I can't remember which record, I'll always remember the experience because I just remember like falling in love with your music on that train ride anytime I think of you, I think of that again, never knowing you, but I think of that one train ride and just loving your songs and your voice.
So all these years later, cause I think that was like 15 years ago.
[00:04:52] Samantha: I've been, yeah, I've been doing it that long.
Train
[00:04:55] Michaela: You've been doing it.
[00:04:56] Samantha: time to fall in love with music, by the way.
So
[00:04:59] Aaron: yeah. Absolutely. I heard somebody talk the other day and they're like, you know, everybody wants self driving cars so you can just get in and sit and you don't have to pay attention and they just take you to wherever you want to go. And it's like, you're talking about trains. They exist in places that are not America.
You can just get on and sit down and it'll take you wherever you need to go and you can do whatever you want
[00:05:16] Samantha: Yeah, and what's crazy is we already have the infrastructure for it. We have railroads everywhere. Yeah,
[00:05:22] Aaron: Yeah, and we live in Nashville, which I think has the honor of being the largest city in America that doesn't have Amtrak service. So we can't take a train. There's like one, I think it's called like the Music City Star that goes from like downtown to Lebanon, which is 20 miles east. And that's it.
Like just back, it's like a Disneyland ride back and forth basically.
[00:05:41] Samantha: Yeah.
my gosh. I'm all for trains, and I think they're a great way to... Fall in love with music for sure. And it probably was 15 years ago. Cause I've been doing this for at least that long.
[00:05:51] Michaela: I read online which, could or could not be true that you started touring at 19.
[00:05:56] Samantha: Yeah, I think I started booking like first like sort of regional tours around 19 and then I say regional cause that would be like Oklahoma city, Tulsa, Dallas, little rock probably. And then, probably started doing more national type stuff. When I was like 20, 21. Yeah.
[00:06:15] Aaron: Was that self booked or did you have somebody helping
[00:06:18] Samantha: Yeah. The first ones were all self booked. Back in the days of MySpace and there was a website I think it was called like midwestvenues. com or something like that. Which didn't just cover Midwest venues, it covered all of the United States.
Mm Um, it was like a Polestar.
I don't know if you guys remember like a Polestar book, where it would
Mm hmm. booking contacts for venues. It was just like the next step after that like, Just had booking contacts for everyone at venue. I was sort of just making like the most random routing, based on what venues I could book and most of them back then were like coffee shops.
And then also it was weirdly like a golden age for like. dIY like, small indie venues, because I think a bunch of people had opened them, as bars, and hadn't lost a bunch of money yet, and so, they were still just booking whoever, if they liked the music you sent them, you know, and yeah, you didn't get paid anything, but, you got, three drink tickets, and you could maybe sell some CDs afterwards, and, Back then that was enough to get gas money to the next place, but yeah, I mean, it was all self booked for at least the first like 2 or 3 years and then I got a booking agent after that, but I've always stayed pretty involved, in the booking process, which is good because I've gone in and out of booking agents. So it's good that I never really lost touch with
[00:07:44] Aaron: how was that transition to working with somebody after handling it yourself for so long? Was it a relief or was it kind of annoying?
[00:07:51] Samantha: I would like to say that it was a relief, but I've never really, other than my agents that I've had in, the UK and Europe, I've never like, Been with an agent in the States where it felt like a relief. It always just felt like inefficient. It was
Mm hmm, mm
It was just like one more step and one more person to pay.
It never felt like it was actually that helpful. never really felt like a relief to me.
[00:08:15] Michaela: When you say inefficient, do you mean because there's one more person in the mix had multiple booking agents and never had a long term consistent relationship where you feel like, Oh, this actually does grow where I see people who have had the same agent for 10 years and I'm like, Oh yeah, I see the strategy and how it's really grown their audience and It's hard to find the right person for you who's willing to like get in on ground level when you're not making a ton of money and then also consistently be on the same page of like, what's the strategy? Where should we be playing? Also, when you're behind your computer, do you know what it's like to actually drive these routes?
And the mental and emotional and physical, consequences of this tour that you're booking, all of that stuff. I have found Challenging. Throughout.
[00:08:59] Samantha: yeah,
I did have a pretty lengthy relationship with an agent in the States, but I didn't realize until I started talking with other artists that. There was things like strategy and that it actually shouldn't be more inefficient than not having one. And so that was what kind of took me out of that relationship.
But,what I mean by inefficient was just sort of like playing telephone. You know, it
was like, They booked a show at a venue that I had already been playing at that. I could have just as easily reached out to and booked. And then they got the commission for that, but I was still advancing the shows and a lot of times still sending all of the assets out and that sort of thing.
And so yeah, it just seemed like an extra little step that really didn't need to be there, that's just my experience. I kind of like, am a slow learner with a lot of this stuff and because I, Okay. Think I was always really scared to ask questions when I was younger, because I didn't want it to seem like I shouldn't be there or something.
And also just being like a woman in the business, you just already are on like high alert of just needing to look like, you know what you're doing, and not wanting that vulnerability to creep in. So someone can like,something hurtful or something to you, but Yeah, I think I just, learned fairly slowly because I was scared to ask questions a lot whenever I was younger in the business side of things.
But I started working with a label in the, UK, right before the pandemic. And it's run by a woman who's also a musician named Lucy Rose. And she opened my mind to The beauty of asking questions and just saying, when you don't know something and asking for help and, not assuming things it has actually.
just on, like, a career standpoint, which I don't,view as the totality of success in my life. I don't view, like,career numbers the totality. I, view, like, the work that I'm making is equally, important, but just from like, a career standpoint. It moved exponentially.
in a really positive direction just because I was able to ask questions more and just get on board with the right people I think and not, just like stick with people out of fear that I wouldn't find someone else, you know, just like believe in myself and believe in my work and just know that like it was going to be fine and I could do it no matter if those people were around or not because I had been the whole time anyways, it's just funny, like, how your brain plays awful tricks on you for so long.
[00:11:30] Aaron: Yeah. I feel like this is a really common thing, this fear of asking questions. And like that fear oh if I ask them, the curtain's gonna get pulled back and everybody's gonna realize that I'm a fraud or I'm a fake or, would you share you, like, a little more detail like, the positives that you saw once you started asking questions and advocating and all that?
[00:11:48] Samantha: Yeah I think mainly I sort of if I have a gut instinct about something to just shut it down and just be like, no, that is not for me. think that has taken away a lot of opportunities in my life for instance, like a band who's asked me to do like a support slot or something like that.
And me just having like one idea of what that band sounds like and what those fans would be like And thinking that I wouldn't really fit in that atmosphere and just that being like presented to me and then just shutting it down. I've done that on numerous occasions when I was younger, for bands that ended up being really successful that In another world, if I would have gone on that tour and somehow would have, formed a relationship with that person or something could have changed the trajectory of what's going on. Whereas now I feel like I'm way more just like open to ideas. If someone presents me with an idea just to be like tell me more about that.
Tell me more about
What does this look like? And it just gives me more information to make a decision, rather than just like shutting things down. So it just like makes me more open. I always like consider myself to be very open.
Minded person, but I guess for whatever reason, I've just been so self reliant and so independent in my career this whole time. It's made me very protective of myself and my. Who I think that I am and like what my, personality or my value set is like within the music industry.
And I think it's just made me really quick to like shut down opportunities instead of just asking more about something. I think that changed quite a bit. And then also just being able to like ask people that you're paying to do a job, what they're doing.
Yeah.
And like, that was a huge thing is just to be able to overcome that fear.
And. open that line of communication,
And then be able to say I don't think that's worth this amount. If you could do this and this, that would be great. And if you don't feel like you can do that, then I might need to like, reassess our relationship.
and not doing it in this weird, confrontational or
[00:13:58] Michaela: or defensive.
[00:13:59] Samantha: defensive. Just like stating it as this is the job. And if it's not working, then I just probably need to like work with someone else. Yeah.
that was huge for me too. Just discovering that I could ask
what people were doing.
[00:14:14] Michaela: Yeah, the power dynamics in the music business are so confusing, especially early on. know, Everything's built on the songs, which are created by the artists. And the artists are the ones that are paying everybody.
[00:14:30] Samantha: We still feel like we're getting hired.
[00:14:33] Michaela: yes, yeah, that like, we're working for our record labels, our managers, our agents, I hope when you get to a certain level that like Jason Isbell or Casey Musgraves, like that they don't still feel that way.
I think when you have a certain level of where you can count on your income or your ability to sell or whatever. I would hope that wouldn't be there, but I think it sucks that it's there even at the early levels or the lower levels where, Your agent is working for you, but you're like my agent's not returning my call or Answering my emails and not booking me any shows.
Oh, no, how do I address this? I'm so afraid because they could just drop me and that's the dynamic until a certain Selling power and it's like the chicken or the egg thing because it's like well How are you supposed to get to that level if the people that are working for you?
Aren't giving you their full attention Because You're not high on the, priority list. And
[00:15:30] Samantha: because we live, like, in a culture that values money more than it does art. that's the way that we're socialized to think that The most valuable thing in this relationship between us and our labels or us and our agents or us and our managers is money.
We're not thinking about it in terms of the fact that they wouldn't have a job if we weren't doing what we were doing. So it's just a matter of likerenegotiating stuff within our own heads too. I think,
[00:15:55] Michaela: yeah, did that happen for you other than the one relationship with Lucy? Because I feel like I'm observing this happen for a lot of people in our age group, of we've gone through a lot of the cycles, and gone through the like, big promises, and the bigger moments of oh, this is it, or the big relationships and, Cycled through them a bit to see like the curtains been pulled back of being in that place of okay am I committed to this career path regardless and how do I stay in this and how do I like stay?
committed and so excited about making music even if I'm still playing the same size rooms that I was playing ten years ago and how do I then? shift my thinking of putting the value on the work that I create regardless of the amount of money that it's bringing in so that I'm in my integrity and the way that I operate.
it seems like from afar that you've been working through that kind of stuff as well. And from the interviews I've read with you, has that been like just a natural progression or?
[00:16:54] Samantha: I think it's like a culmination of like a few things. I also want to say that like, another reason why I feel like it's taken me this long to come around to these sorts of realizations is because I do live in Oklahoma, and I'm not living in one of these big music cities like, New York or L.
A. or Nashville, and so I feel very like, separate Most of my friends do other things. I never had like shop talk sessions, you know, when you,guys did an episode where you had your three, like friends that you guys have a text,
group message or whatever and I was like, oh my gosh, that would have saved me like
so much like pain, if I would have just you know, had someone that I felt like I trusted enough to like ask like, are you guys getting paid this much?
Or do you guys have this issue? I just feel like I didn't really like have that. And so Until I met Lucy where I could like, have those sorts of conversations with someone openly, that was a huge eye opener. But I also had a huge, life, spiritual awakening thing, back in 2018, because I got in, a bad car wreck that sort of gave me a...
One of those very cliche, second chapter of life moments. And I think it was like at that moment where I just started really doing like an internal inventory on what I wanted out of life and what is important to me and what my values are and just coming to the realization that I don't have to try and model my life after other people's lives, I can just.
Decide what it is that I want my life to look like and then move towards that. And so I think that's paired with meeting Lucy, like around the same time, and then getting to release my record on her label with a bunch of. Other folks in the UK who were equally as. Emotionally intelligent
She was um, and just very easy to learn from and talk to, and, I think they like, got what I was doing and they got my work and it was, like, the first time that I felt like there wasn't a weird power dynamic.
It was just,
They liked what I had art wise, and I liked what they had in terms of their expertise of Music business side of things. So it was like a true symbiotic relationship at that point. so it just goes hand in hand. And I think a lot of people do start having these moments probably in their late thirties.
They've gone through enough sort of life changing moments where they either decide that they're going to be. Miserable for the rest of their life, or they're going to try to find ways where they're not miserable.
[00:19:35] Aaron: hmm.
[00:19:36] Samantha: think that's why I'm on this trajectory because I decided I would like to not be miserable, I guess.
[00:19:41] Aaron: yeah, we both had of major shifts happen in our early thirties along the same way, like readjusting, realigning I hear people talk about Like your Saturn returns or whatever at 13, like. 33. So like there's that, and then I'm kind of more of pragmatist. So I think of like also an age where you're like, all right, this is kind of all or nothing.
kind of like shit or get off the pot kind of thing. I'm either doing this or I should figure out something else to do. both happened to me and it was like a really big wake up call and I wouldn't say that life is perfect on, this side of that realization in any stretch of the imagination, but the, horizon is further away or the runway I see in front of myself is longer.
There are more opportunities, more possibilities, than, at least, what I had before in retrospect.
[00:20:27] Samantha: yeah. Before I felt like life was happening to me, and now I feel like I have more agency over my life,
[00:20:35] Aaron: really well said. Yeah, I
[00:20:37] Michaela: think also there's kind of this mentality, especially when you start touring in your teenage years or your twenties where you don't have like necessarily the expectation or the desire to have money to build a home, have a home life, I think then there's this mentality of, well, you just suffer for long enough and you're like making a deal that if you suffer, you'll then be rewarded.
This is going to pay off. And I think when you get to a certain age where you're like yes, things have gotten better, but I'm going to stay in this regardless. So like you said, do I want to suffer? Do I want to be miserable? Or how do I change the things that are within my control of my approach of just being like.
I'm not fucking around anymore. I'm still doing this, but I'm going to build a good life. I teach vocal technique and I do songwriting coaching. And I have students that are professionals that are like in their twenties and the conversations that we have, you know, they're like. Is this what I'm supposed to be doing? Just like expected to just rack up a bunch of debt and go on tour and like, I'm told that this is going to pay off. But what if it doesn't? And that's kind of like the motivation of, these conversations one helping people know that they're not alone. And also my opinion, is that the music industry and like the touring industry and the things that we accept are pretty broken.
And I don't know what the other way is, like, I'm not going out there trying to like restructure everything or make massive change, but I just feel like it's not the way that I want to keep promoting or accepting.
[00:22:08] Samantha: A hundred percent. Yeah. I think what's going on is within the artist communities you've got a return. to what like the values of like true artistry was before it became, Basically, just like another wing of capitalism.
because we're starting to recognize that, art probably shouldn't be listed right next to, a taco truck or something, or, you know, some, some sort of, like, maybe taco trucks, a bad idea because the taco truck could be very like, artistic and creative, maybe something more like, Target or something like that yeah, what you're saying. That's just like, I don't want to sit here and go into like hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and just hope that it's going to pay off, especially now when the market is like, so oversaturated because it's so easy to like, promote yourself and get your stuff out.
It makes it that much more of a small, chance that you're going to see any real like financial. Return on that, so I really like this podcast because number one, it makes me, first of all, thank you for letting me be on this podcast because I've been on many a walks and many a drives listening to
[00:23:18] Michaela: thank you.
[00:23:19] Samantha: Thank like I said, being out in Oklahoma and not being able to have conversations about this kind of stuff, I do feel less alone hearing everyone else talk about this.
But what I'm hearing is just multiple people saying, I don't care it's not gonna take me to like, the highest level, because that's just not the most important thing to me.
And for some people, that is the most important thing to them, and thatfine, that's a life choice, That jives more with like a capitalist business mindset, which is very American, very Western.
And when I realign with myself and ask myself, what's the most important things for me, like what I want my life to look like, what values I have, they align way more with something that is probably closer to my ancestors. probably something that isn't involved with a, Westernized capitalist society, and way more with probably artists original values back whenever they were, making paintings in their little tiny shacks for months on end without.
Any money, any food, drinking paint, water or
Mm hmm.
So I'm just interested to see where it goes. I've seen a resurgence in like people joining musician unions. So like, hopefully we can end up in a place where we have some sort of, bargaining power.
[00:24:41] Aaron: You mentioned earlier that you notice the difference of not living in a major music city being la or nashville or new york and one thing that we love about this show is being able to Show that there's no one right way and I speaking for us like, you know, we lived in New York City for 12 years we've only lived in music cities and have felt the pressure and like there's no other option We've now realized that there are multiple options, but we have community here and we're here at the moment But you've been able to build a really substantial career, not in a music city.
Can you share some of how that has happened? would assume it'd be persistence and a lot of hard work, this shows on the internet so we can see where people listen and there are people that listen in places that Are not LA or New York or Los Angeles and I can imagine it feels really limiting and like I'm stuck here There's no outlet but like you're proof that you can
[00:25:34] Samantha: Yeah, I feel like we live like, in a pretty globalized society now anyways, with the internet. You can be anywhere. If you open up your laptop, hence how we are able to do this. but I would say for me, I wouldn't say this about the person I am now, but when I started writing and performing, I was pretty young and pretty insecure.
not very like self aware and definitely did not have like a mission statement for what I was doing. All I knew was that like, I had never done anything that felt half as right as what it felt like when I was playing a song for people on a stage, whether they were listening or not.
That just felt whenever I discovered that I was hooked. I was just like, this is what I have to do. And so I think it would have almost been a detriment to me. I think if I would have gone to a music city, if I would have seen. People that had years and years of experience Boatloads of self confidence Self assured like, behavior and just loads of talent.
I think it would have just knocked me off my butt. So I feel like naivety has worked way in my favor. Just like, being here and not really... Knowing what other people are doing all the time. Like, Yes, I have access to the Internet and I have social media and stuff. So I do know what else is out there, but I think that it's way easier for me just to focus on my work being here, which has been very positive. For me, and I think another thing that it's given me is like a different perspective.
I mean, just like geographically and culturally I live in like a different place than a lot of other artists. It just gives me like a different perspective, I think which makes my writing Yeah.
As far as like I've been able to like grow a career from here. I toured so much in my twentiesI was just talking to BJ Barnum from American aquarium the other day on the phone and we were reminiscing about a tour that we did together when we were like, I don't know, it was back in like 2009 or something back then. He still tours this much, so I can't, I can't speak for him, but we were both touring like, 250 shows a year or something, It wouldn't have mattered where I lived at that point. You know, it was just like, I had all the meetings that I needed to because I was in New York or LA or Nashville or London or Berlin, at least, five times a year.
Mhm. Before zoom was like the norm I was always going to be in someone's city. So I toured so much and. Just didn't let myself This is an awful like metaphor for what this is, but it's like, the creepy guy that like stays at the bar until closing time to like pick up the girl, take the girl home, you know? it's like, if you just don't let yourself leave the conversation, if you're just like always present.
It might happen, you know,
[00:28:43] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:28:45] Samantha: that's like, by the way, that is a awful, uh, sexist metaphor, but it's just
[00:28:52] Michaela: No, but
[00:28:52] Samantha: I thought of.
[00:28:53] Michaela: Yeah, we talked to Lucius, Jess and Holly were on here from the band Lucius and they talked about, relentless touring and their early days and what
[00:29:02] Aaron: Holly said. It was great. They're like, if they tell you that you have to be in the right place. at the right time, you'd just be in all of the places all the time.
Yeah, that
[00:29:10] Michaela: was, they were like, that was our strategy. And it, worked in a lot of ways. It's just really hard to keep that up. So it's like, that can for some people become exhausting or detrimental to your physical or mental health.
[00:29:25] Aaron: But it can be really valuable if you approach it in a smart, mindful way.
When you're early in your career. You might not have money, but you have time, and so if you invest the time, and don't leave the bar, eventually somebody's going to give you 30 bucks to leave the bar. Yeah,
[00:29:42] Michaela: I've, I was reminded this because I always want to go to bed.
I'm like, I always want to go to bed early. And there were phases in my life where I really loved to party. And I loved going dancing and touring, you know, all that stuff. But still, for the most part like, I would skip out on most things if it was late. I've missed many a party, even though I have severe FOMO.
I'm like a walking contradiction.
[00:30:02] Aaron: I just want to point out for this metaphor, you have also been the girl at the bar at four in the morning when nobody else is there. And I'm like, we should go. Yeah, it's time to leave.
[00:30:10] Michaela: I'm a Gemini. So I have split personalities.
Like We still, we're always like the last one at every kid's party to leave. And we're like, what is wrong with us? But then the other side of the coin is if I'm tired, I want to go and I want to be in bed. a personal Facebook memory came up.
The other day from, I don't know, 10 years ago, that was like, when we lived in New York, I was like, I'm playing Rockwood and John Batiste is playing at Rockwood too. And then he's having a jam after, and I'm going to be a guest and this was before John Batiste became John Batiste. I knew him and I went to bed that night.
I skipped out on the jam. I'm like, John Batiste is one of our like greatest musicians of our generation. And The moment that I was going to play music with him, it was like at midnight, and I was like, Ugh, I'm too tired. I'm going home. I'm like, Facebook reminded me of that, and I'm like, cool.
I was not someone who was everywhere all the time. I was there sometimes.
[00:31:02] Samantha: Yeah I definitely do not have the energy that I did back then, by any means, but I'm glad that I had it when I did, because I feel like it gave me at least enough of a reputation To build something real. Like now that I feel like I'm actually a good songwriter, like back then, I don't think I was, that's the other thing that I think it's like, I was good at like touring, I was good at being resilient and like driving.
I was probably a better overnight driver than I was anything else. I was better truck Yeah. than I was a songwriter or a singer or a player. And now I feel like well, it's a good thing that I was a good truck driver back then because now that I feel like I actually have some of the like goods to back it up I'm not the best truck driver anymore, so I feel like I at least have a little bit of bargaining power on that.
[00:31:55] Michaela: Yeah, the foundation of like, the network of people and name recognition. Now, you know,That you don't have to be in people's faces as much to get them to maybe give your work a chance.
[00:32:07] Samantha: Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah.
[00:32:08] Michaela: Yeah, I saw yesterday, I don't remember the artist's name, but a friend shared her post. she's like a UK artist and she's been touring with Hosier and has like, over a hundred some thousand Instagram followers and like New Yorker profiles and stuff.
And she posted this long piece That she wanted to share her reality, which was, it's the most successful, busiest year of her life with all these huge opportunities, but she's the most exhausted and depressed she's ever been. And she was like, really laying out the reality of tour. Of like, yes, I'm on this awesome tour, but I'm chasing a bus and we're sleeping like three hours a night and driving all day.
We don't get to exercise. I have to look good. I should have spent more money that I didn't have on better outfits because I have to make tick tocks and look good on stage. And like,don't have money for a tour manager and listing just like the harsh realities, which I know, but.
Even myself reading it, I was like, looking at the package of how many Instagram followers she has, and what tours she's on, and what press she's gotten, and I'm like, oh wow, that's still the reality at that perception. And I think it's cool to talk about that stuff. I'm glad at the same time of like, yeah, okay, but what are we gonna do now?
So instead of just complaining all the time about how hard the requirements are, the expectations. what's the approach? And so what is for you now that you've said, you know, you don't have the energy to tour in that way. What's your kind of like ethos and approach to your hmm.
[00:33:38] Samantha: well,
I think. It goes along with kind of what I was talking about earlier, where I kind of, feel like I consistently am taking sort of self inventories of what my priorities are in life, not just like with my career, but just with the work that I'm making with my family, with my friends, and just sort of being able to keep Those boundaries and just have really clear like, on the business side of things,clear communication promoters, with labels, with musicians, just to really think before you respond to like, an email that's do you want to play this festival, for this much and even if it's something that you really want to do, just to like, Not be so reactive.
my whole life has been a lesson in like not being so reactive, like just taking a moment to just think about something. And to read that email and to say, okay, if I take this show, These musicians are going to cost this much. The travel is going to cost this much. the days that I'm going to have to miss from my part time job are going to cost this much.
if it's like a flying to show, finding someone to take care of my dog is going to cost this much. Like, Just kind of taking the time to like, figure out what that looks like in a realistic way. and then also, think about the physical toll that it will take.
if you have other, things that you have to do after that, that are going to require a certain amount of physical energy because traveling will take it out of
[00:35:06] Michaela: Yeah. That's something that was never considered in younger days.
[00:35:10] Samantha: Exactly.
[00:35:10] Michaela: of, what do you have after?
[00:35:12] Samantha: Yeah. I totally understand my grandma like at the end of vacation now just like her whole like, hauling herself inside at the end of a vacation when we were little, that's how I feel when I come back home after like a weekend in New York city or
. something.
So, Just taking a moment not responding right away and then just being able to say like,actually, this is what, I would need in order to make that happen and
I would say 75 percent of the time, they will make that happen I mean, They're reaching out to you for a reason.
They want you. And that has been amazing because it makes me not stress so much and it makes me not be resentful of my job and it makes me not be resentful of The thing that I love to do, which is creating and sharing music with people. That has been huge for me. And then I think also just like finding tools to like deal with it, because Every job is going to have its tolls that it takes on your body or your mind and you kind of just have to figure out what those are and figure out what you need. Little cheat codes are good. I mean, like, I meditate every morning meditation really helps me, bypass physical nature of what I might be experiencing and. it reminds me to like, ask for help. It reminds me of my agency to like, make choices in any moment. It reminds me that I'm not just like a personality or a body, but I am like a soul. And like, that I am,On a very cool mystical journey of like creating something from absolutely nothing that is amazing.
Like when you really start to think about it, very cool Yeah. helps me to like accept things which is also huge whenever you find yourself in situations that are less than desirable, but you need to be able to like, move forward and still do a job. you're like well, you can't do anything about this, so you just have to like, move along.
[00:37:11] Aaron: Yeah. For me. I've practiced meditation for a long time to varying frequencies, and I agree with all of that. And for me, two things that you had mentioned, like that gap between, intake and your response, it really widens that gap for me. Whether actually widens the gap or not, my experience of that gap is stronger.
And so I can really be like, what is my response to this? And then in terms of discomfort, like you said, for me, that place that I go to, like, when I meditate, whether it's, you know, being aware of my consciousness, is a pretty calm place. Or at least, predictably steady place. And more frequently that I'm meditating, the more that I'm using that muscle, I'm able to tap into that in times of discomfort and be like, okay, this discomfort ishappening to me.
It is not me. I am here experiencing this situation.
[00:37:58] Samantha: Yeah, the discomfort thing is huge because, that actually might be the biggest thing that I get from it is just learning how to live With discomfort.
[00:38:08] Aaron: Mhm.
[00:38:08] Samantha: I mean,
Because we live in a society that is like we do not let ourselves live in discomfort. We are like obsessed with self medicating through booze and drugs and food and social media and all of these things, which actually that all makes our job and our purpose harder.
[00:38:26] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:38:27] Samantha: it's like,
if you can live with discomfort, you can cut down on the amount of sort of self medicating self distracting that you're doing. And I feel like it actually makes. your job easier. Even if it's not easier, it just makes it feel easier for some reason. I'm not, really sure.
the reaction thing is, huge too because the thing that you're not reacting to is ego. You're not reacting to like your ego and you're not reacting to the ego of others when you encounter it. usually the thing that I've struggled with is reacting to my own ego. That's the thing that I've always been like, Yes, I will do the show because that's me and me being like they want me they want me to play this show I'll do it no matter how much money I lose, you know No matter how awful it makes my life just being able to like take a fucking breath and like Really think about it, you know
[00:39:17] Michaela: it's like the, scarcity mindset versus abundant mindset and that I think is a big shift for a lot of self employed creative people because you get asked to do something, you get asked to do a tour, it kind of is like,well you have to say yes and then figure it out later.
And that shift I've had Conversations with friends recently of tours coming up and them being like, wow, my younger self would have been like an automatic, yes, you have to take it because you need to be out there, you know, and looking at those parameters of like,what are these drives going to look like?
what's my safety going to look like driving, this time of year and this geography and you know, what is the economic consequences of this and like taking in all of Those parameters of judgment and then making like you said, like a really informed decision rather than a quick reaction based on your ego or scarcity this is going to look good if I do it.
how could I turn this down? That to me is a sign of, deeper. growth, even beyond just music career stuff, of just in life to be able to take in information, set your own value system, rather than what your perception is of what you should do based on these ideas that we've taken in from society or our community or whatever.
And then deciding for yourself, is this good for me?
[00:40:35] Samantha: yeah, like earlier when you were talking about musicians in their late thirties coming to these realizations and like what that would be based around,
I like immediately thought that it was like just life experience, like things shifting your thought, but as you were just saying that I was thinking, it's more because when we're younger We base our whole identity around that.
We are at like a touring musician. That is who we are to the core. And so we have no other barometer for like checking in on different aspects of our life. And like seeing the health of those aspects, because we just only care about what temperature is that right now?
And. I think the reason why it starts happening to people sort of in their mid to late thirties is because by that point in time, a lot of people have, either experienced an event or had some sort of deep spiritual work or something that's made them realize that. Their worthiness as like a person does not rely on them being an artist or like a musician. That they have so many other aspects of their life that are equally as important and they need to be taking the temperatures of all of those areas.
Yeah.
And that is what I think a lot of this sort of quote, self care stuff starts seeping in because people looking into that a little bit more.
[00:42:04] Michaela: It seems like such a, yeah, duh, statement, but it's, it is like, it's shocked me how much I've been like, oh, wow, I didn't value other aspects of my life. It was like, that was the thing. That was the goal. That was the identity. And I hopefully, for a lot of us, it also just starts to get better.
Boring when you only have one dimension of your personality that you elevate and we would talk about this that it started to get boring within our community when we'd be like, I don't want to only talk about tour That's one thing about living in a music city. You go out and it's like, Hey, what's up?
The conversations are, you just got back from tour? Cool. How was, are you going out on tour? When you going out on tour? And it's like, let's talk about some other stuff. There's
[00:42:46] Aaron: like, how are you? Cool.
[00:42:47] Samantha: How are you as a person? Yeah.
[00:42:49] Michaela: Yeah, so I think that shift can happen for a lot of people of like, oh, it is fun and awesome and all these great things about tour. But then at a certain point, there's also so much more to life. That's really exciting. And that was a deep realization for me that actually, being home. It's really exciting.
It can be. I didn't value that before, but like home cooked meals and being with your family and like Gardening all that stuff that I was like, oh, that's boring now. I'm like, that's a deep well of self and soul if you're paying attention of what that care is when you have your eyes open to just Your life at home, or in routine or having a hobby or anything else besides just the one thing you've been focused on for a really long time.
[00:43:33] Samantha: Yeah. And I mean, if you want to keep growing like, as a songwriter, you're gonna have to like, start. Exploring other ways to live anyways, because I mean, there's only so many songs you can write about heartbreak and drinking and being on the road.
Yeah.
[00:43:48] Michaela: I've noticed that big time. I listened to Lori McKenna's. New record, that came out this summer, I think, and I was like, this is music for grownups. Because I used to really just love the songs that were about being on the road being dysfunctional, complicated, toxic, romantic relationships.
And now I'm like, Oh, I love this song that's about 40 year marriage and the ins and outs of that and like complexities of that or memories of grandparents or whatever, like all the other stuff in life that. I think you start to value as you live.
[00:44:19] Samantha: Yeah. Cause there's more ways to connect with people had a person that was working for a manager that said with artists, either want to. Be you or fuck you. you have to meet one of those sort of like spots.
And I feel like when we're younger and doing it, we're all kind of like trying to like fit into the, yes, I would like everyone in this audience to want to like have sex with me while I'm on the stage. But then when you enter into the next stage of your life where you're having more.
Nuanced experiences and, coming into contact with different kinds of people and different things are popping up. this is your chance to connect with people on a different level. And I wouldn't say like, I want to be you, but maybe be inspirational in some way, which is like, this person is being thoughtful enough to think through their situation right now.
and put it into a song and put it on a record. So then I can listen to it. And it can then help me get through a similar situation. So it's a similar thing. I think that whole have sex with you or be you thing is a bit misguided, but,
Yeah.
that there's like, a couple of other options there, but, I see, like, where the be you part can branch off into maybe just the cool older sister or the cool older brother who's like, I've been here before, let me tell you about
[00:45:39] Michaela: I think, a lot of people want artists or look to music or art to help them make meaning of experiences that we've had, that then we see ourselves in another artist's work or, inspired by. I feel like as a,consumer of music and art, and I know we all listen to things very differently, but That's what resonates with me and my approach of like, want to be inspired by you, to make meaning of these experiences that we all have as humans.
[00:46:06] Samantha: Yeah,
[00:46:07] Aaron: You said somethingearlier in our conversation that I wanted to make sure that we grabbed and you said, when we were talking about like the commodification of our music and our art and finances and all of that.
And you mentioned that you, don't, judge your success based on financial numbers or numbers like that. You've shifted to be able to focus on like your output. I'm totally of paraphrasing what you said, but can you tell us more about that?
[00:46:31] Samantha: Yeah, I think, for whatever reason, probably, largely tied to, me just sort of revisiting,where my priorities are, where my values lie. early on in my career, I was just so I don't think I was ever like overly concerned with making like a pop hit or something like that.
But I think always in the back of my head, I was thinking like, I need to be making something that is going to be able to fit in the americana world, you Mhm.
um, Even though until ramzer released my records. I had never even heard of that and definitely
None of the music that I listened to was like a part of that.
I was listening to like pop music radio and The cranberries and Radiohead. And the reason why my music was considered folk was because the only instrument I had access to in Oklahoma was an acoustic guitar. And that's just like what I, played. but I think that was kind of like the detriment to. My music not really fitting into that world so much, because it wasn't actually of that world, it was something else just played on an acoustic guitar, and then on top of that, me increasingly trying to make it fit into that world because my label and my manager and all the bands that I was touring with were all kind of like existing in that world and just like overly obsessed with the idea that like, in order to make these records, make their money back for this labelI was paralyzed by if Ramzer pressing a record for me, paralyzed by that balance hanging over my head.
probably because I just did not grow up with money, and I don't know anything about money. I don't know,so money just like, made me very uncomfortable, and I would just avoid any talk of it, or thinking about it at all costs, and so it would just paralyze me knowing that someone was like, losing money by working with me,
So I would just try to kind of form my next thing that I did.
well, I'll try better next time and I'll do this. And that just like, did not go well. I was just like increasingly becoming like more resentful of what I was doing and more unhappy, like really losing touch with myself, as an artist, but also just like as a person and just not knowing myself And then I think, a few records doing that I think it probably all started happening around the same time as all this other stuff, all this other like life reckoning stuff. I just made this decision where I was like, I'm only going to make art that I want to this is a deeply like spiritual experience for me, like uncovering.
The deeper parts of existence and putting them into songs, and singing them to people. And so my life is going to look a little bit different than maybe what I think it should look like or what other people think that it should look like. and I just need to, like, really, trust myself on that, I think.
And... so I just started like producing my records myself. I started allowing myself to not second guess myself. I wasn't letting like other people make decisions for me as much, like before I was just like, people would match me up with producers I would always dread music videos and picking out cover art because I was just like, I knew that whatever I would want to do would be shot down. And so I just became somebody that had no opinion because I was lucky to even be there doing it. so I just became the person that made all of the decisions. I, started. Producing all the records and not doing the actual design work, but like working with a designer very closely to be like, I want this year and this year and like drawing little bad sketches and being like, this is what I want it to look like and working with artists that I really loved and directing all of my own music videos and just being like, I am taking all of this back for myself because I've lost all of the joy in it and I'm not worried if it doesn't make.
Any money because I want to remember my purpose This is my purpose. This is like what I need to be doing. So once I started doing that it's just like brought back all of The joy of like what I'm doing. I just, I remember I used to be so stressed when it was like time for a new album, when someone would be like, okay, time for a new album.
And I'd just be like, I don't know. I need more time. and now I don't, nobody even asked me for it because I'm just like, ready. I'm ready to do it whenever I'm just like in a good flow state. And actually the records that I've done recently have been way more successful than anything I've done.
And yes, maybe that's just like a time on this earth, time in the business sort of thing, but I really don't think so. I think it's because people are drawn to people that are like doing what they're supposed to be doing.
[00:51:20] Aaron: Yeah, they're integrated. Yeah, I mean that's a really powerful thing to kind of align everything and, Like you said, taking control the idea of like coming out of the closet keeps popping into my head for some reason because we're using obscure analogies in this episode.
but you know, Like not masquerading as like what you think your music should be. Just be like, no, this is my music. This is the music I'm making. It's just such a powerful thing. And I think, the things you can't really put into words about music. You know, It's just something that you can, as a listener feel and it hits, on a different level than you can, verbalize.
[00:51:52] Samantha: Yeah.
[00:51:52] Michaela: Yeah. That's beautiful. We're past our time. Yeah. Thank you so much And I love that ending because I feel like that's a reoccurring theme also of going through industry stuff and feeling like Oh success is also having people to do things for me And we talked to that with BJ from American Aquarium a lot the power also the creative energy that you can bring to it when you're really hands on and doing stuff yourself or whether that's self releasing or self producing, whatever aspect it is, but that there's great power in having ownership over a lot of it being the decision maker for yourself artistically, creatively, business wise, all of it.
So that sounds like a really great place that you're in right now. So thank you for sharing that with us.
[00:52:35] Samantha: Yeah. You're welcome.
[00:52:37] Michaela: And thank you for being a guest and thank, thank you for listening.
[00:52:42] Samantha: Yeah!
And
don't know if I'll listen to It might be weird to listen to my own
[00:52:47] Aaron: Yeah, I,
[00:52:48] Samantha: Just folding my laundry, being like, oh, I wonder what she's gonna say.
[00:52:51] Aaron: Michaela listens to the episode every week. listened because I do like the quality control, like after our editor edits it and all of that, but I don't listen to it once it's aired.
[00:52:59] Michaela: But every Wednesday morning it airs and I take our daughter to daycare and then I go to the gym and I go on the treadmill and I listen to the episode
but it's so fun for me to listen because I'm not paying attention as much to us and I really ignore. it's more just fun to see how it.
It comes together and I think a lot of people will find a lot of great stuff in this episode and that's for us like constantly staying grounded in our mission of this podcast that it's for anybody who wants to listen, but we really are focused for being something for our community of artists to try and nurture and help each other.
[00:53:33] Samantha: I think it really is super helpful to just like,artists that exist outside of like, what the normal life of an artist is, just for them to see that there's lots of Different ways to do this and just being constantly like, reassured that you're fine follow your light.
[00:53:49] Michaela: Yes. Exactly.
[00:53:51] Aaron: All right. Thanks, Samantha. It's great to meet you.
[00:53:53] Samantha: Yeah, nice to meet y'all.