The Other 22 Hours

Steve Poltz on life as a treasure hunt, creating your own scene, and getting pinned on the mat.

Episode Summary

Over the last 30+ years Steve Poltz has released more than 14 records both solo and with his 90's band The Rugburns, on his own label as well as Mercury Records, as well as a longtime collaboration with Jewell including co-writing her hit "You Were Meant for Me." We talk with Steve about everything from having a stroke on stage, mid-song (and continuing to sing the song), all the way to viewing life as a treasure hunt, slaying the dragons, his infectious positivity and optimism, and getting pinned to the mat.

Episode Notes

Over the last 30+ years Steve Poltz has released more than 14 records both solo and with his 90's band The Rugburns, on his own label as well as Mercury Records, as well as a longtime collaboration with Jewell including co-writing her hit "You Were Meant for Me." We talk with Steve about everything from having a stroke on stage, mid-song (and continuing to sing the song), all the way to viewing life as a treasure hunt, slaying the dragons, his infectious positivity and optimism, and getting pinned to the mat.

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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Episode Transcription

Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss

[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. This is the second year of our podcast and we're so happy to be here and want to thank you for being here with us.

[00:00:20] Aaron: yeah, it takes all of us to keep this show going and we could use your help in doing that.

One thing that you could do is take your favorite episode, if you're a returning listener, and pass it on to somebody that doesn't know what we're doing. Word of Mouth is the best way to spread the word. Another way to spread the word is to leave a rating on your podcast listening platform of choice. Spotify.

Apple music is just something when somebody is browsing, it validates our show and explains to them why they should spend an hour listening to us. And the last one is a new one for this year. We like to keep these conversations uninterrupted. And so instead of selling ads, we have decided to launch a Patreon and it is a place where you can get more behind the scenes access.

There's some exclusive content. There is advanced notice on our guests with the chance to have your questions answered, a whole slew of stuff, that really goes hand in hand with growing this community and keeping the podcast going. So you can check that out at the link in the show notes.

We're not journalists. We are working musicians ourselves. And so we're able to take these conversations to really interesting places based on sharing the very honest realities of building a lifelong career based on our art.

[00:01:26] Aaron: Yeah, and there's so much that is outside of our control in this business. so we like to focus on what is within our control, which is our habits, our mindsets, our creativity. And we don't explicitly ask this question in any of the shows, but it is the underpinning of everything, and that is the question, What do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?

And today, we get to ask that question of the character, Steve Paltz. If you've ever met Steve, he is infectious. He's a one

[00:01:55] Michaela: and only person.

[00:01:56] Aaron: If you've met Steve, you know who Steve is.

[00:01:59] Michaela: Yeah. And it took us a while. I think I've been texting with Steve for several months to try and pin him down for this conversation.

And that's a testament because he talks about how he does not know how to say no. had the big idea to play a show. Every single day of the year.

[00:02:14] Aaron: 365 shows in a year. Yeah, and

[00:02:16] Michaela: his was like, absolutely not. Steve is an incredible folk singer, songwriter, he's had several records, he's been signed to a major label, run his own label for the past 20 some years.

His big hit is You Were Meant For Me by Jewel. His career is so much more than just

[00:02:35] Aaron: Yeah, he had a band called the Rugburns for a long time and, it's really open about, being completely lost on stage when the Rugburns broke up and he was out there by himself. And this is, post massive success with Jewel and all of that at a point where you know, he mentions as an aside that he could have retired then and how he's just in love with being on stage and writing music.

And it's a really infectious episode in conversation. Steve is just so naturally positive, and optimistic about everything. It's hard to not be infected by that.

[00:03:08] Michaela: And not in an avoidant way, which is something I really loved to be able to dig into this conversation. I think there's a lot to learn from Hearing how Steve views the world.

So yeah, I'm really glad that we got to have this conversation with him

[00:03:21] Aaron: Yeah, we start with him mentioning having a stroke on stage and continuing to play the song and Go from there. So hang on. It's a really enjoyable conversation. So without further ado, here's our conversation with Steve Paltz

[00:03:35] Steve: We're like really close to each other

[00:03:38] Michaela: we are, and also you're going to 30A, I'm going to

[00:03:41] Steve: are you?

[00:03:42] Michaela: Yeah.

[00:03:43] Steve: When you go to 38, do you say I want to play this certain room or do you just let the chips fall where they may?

[00:03:50] Michaela: I let the chips fall where they may, but I also don't know if I would even think that I was allowed to say that. laughs

[00:03:59] Steve: the reason I ask is last year I was like, I told my manager or my booking agent, I didn't want to do any in the rounds. I just wanted to do. all solo sets and they acquiesced to my demands and took because they had me in a bunch of like in the round things and not that I don't like those but I like playing my own show better

so they were like really cool about it and this year I just let the chips fall where they may.

[00:04:26] Michaela: are you doing in the rounds?

[00:04:27] Steve: one,

[00:04:28] Michaela: Okay.

[00:04:29] Steve: sometimes I feel like fighting for things and other times I don't.

Yeah.

it's just out of attrition. I just give up and I'm like whatever. And then I regret that because you always got to try to Get what you want.

[00:04:41] Michaela: the first time I went was 2020, which I remember I saw you there then. And then, Two years ago, I was supposed to go and I canceled last minute because there was another COVID variant going around and I was like, I can't go with, our daughter was like six months old or something and we were going to take her and I was like, this is too stressful and didn't you guys get COVID?

[00:05:01] Steve: I did get COVID

[00:05:03] Michaela: Yeah. So I was like, thank God. I just waited a year and got COVID on Kayamo, but yeah.

[00:05:08] Steve: I was on that KOMO too. I think I gave COVID to Chuck Profit and Ricky Lee Jones and then everybody on my flight home on Southwest. I got on the flight and that's when it hit me and I went, Man, I don't feel so good. And I was like starting to sweat. And I was on that flight and I was trying not to cough and my nose was running and people and it was at the Height of it all too, like coming out of it and everybody was just looking at me with disdain.

[00:05:34] Michaela: Oh, I mean, I remember at Kayama when I had it because I was at the airport with everybody wearing an N95. And I remember you and Sharon were like, from afar, like Michaela, like backing away from me. I was like, Hi, okay, I won't come near

[00:05:48] Aaron: you. In our defense. We did everything we could to not fly home.

cause we were in the middle of the ocean still when she tested positive, and so production let us use their like secret internet that actually worked, that wasn't available to the rest of the ship. And so I was able to get in touch with her manager and her manager changed our flights but not the rest of the band.

And then I also like found a car, found a rental car from Miami to Nashville. so we get off the boat, go to pick up the rental car, which coincidentally was at the same hotel that everybody was just brought to, to wait to go to the airport. So we were at the same hotel as everybody else anyway.

[00:06:21] Michaela: And everyone knew I had COVID and was like, why is Michaela here? Yeah.

[00:06:25] Steve: Oh

[00:06:26] Aaron: and so we show up and I go to the, there was like an Avis counter at the hotel and I go and they're like, oh, we don't have any cars here. And I was like, okay, cool. So I call Avis and so sorry. The exact same car is like at this other hotel, like two miles down the road.

We'll give it to you for half price. And I was like, great, awesome. So I get our 18 month old daughter Michaela who has COVID in all of our, merch, all of our luggage, her guitar, all that into an Uber. We get in the Uber and we're on our way to this other place to get the car to then drive to Nashville.

Halfway there the place calls are like we don't have any cars here either To which point I called Avis again. They're like, we're so sorry We will guarantee you a car for Tuesday. And this was like Friday morning in Miami Where hotels are like 500 a night and we're just like We can't.

[00:07:10] Michaela: So we went back to the hotel where everybody was and rebooked the original flight that we had canceled to be on the same flight with everybody back home to Nashville.

[00:07:18] Aaron: So, So our apologies if anybody's listening and got COVID mysteriously in the end of February after being on a Southwest flight.

[00:07:27] Steve: I think i've had it three times I didn't even test the last time I was like, I, I know I have COVID, I was in the middle of Canada somewhere I don't know, remember the old days when you got the flu or a cold on the road, you just powered through it. Now you're just like stuck somewhere,

but I think your body gets stronger after you have it.

[00:07:46] Michaela: know about that because I will also, I have a toddler, so I'm just like, I've been sick for a month, like years ago, I still have a cold. I've been like congested for literally a month, I remember years ago playing a gig. with a fever and my fever like breaking on stage and like sweating and I'm like I would never leave the house now if I had a fever because of just culture has changed back then it was like you do not cancel a gig ever.

[00:08:15] Steve: never.

[00:08:16] Michaela: well, I gotta

[00:08:16] Steve: go on stage then. I've played with concussions, a broken nose, stitches in my head, a broken finger. It's weird. I just never cancelled gigs.

[00:08:28] Aaron: Yeah. We were just talking about this right before we got on this call, around the first time I met you, first handful of times I met you, you were telling me you had like a major health incident on stage one time. did you have a stroke on stage or like a minor heart attack or something like that?

[00:08:43] Steve: No, I had a stroke.

Wow. Oh my God.

Isn't that crazy? Yeah, I went blind on stage and I didn't even stop the show then. I was just going what is going on? And you know how like those old TV sets blink on and off?

Mm Those old black and white ones? That was what it was like. I was just going what is going on? Is there something in my eye?

And then it just was like fluttering up and down and then it just went, black and I couldn't see But I could see out of the corner of my left eye I was looking like this at the audience trying to see him and I kept playing, but I was so confused because I was having a stroke that I was playing the same verse like 10 times in a row.

And people were laughing because they thought it was a thing I was doing to mess with them. but it was real. And then I finally. I couldn't get anything right. Nothing made sense. And then I just said, I think I got to stop playing. Something bad is happening to me. First I asked if they turned out the lights.

And then they were like, what? And I go, can you guys see each other? Like I was just saying this stuff to the audience. And

Wow.

I ended up going to the hospital. I was in the hospital for like seven days. then my vision came back. But when it came back, I couldn't read.

there was stuff on the walls of the hospital and I was like, what are those letters?

I was like really confused and then it came back to me and I got out of there and I was just like, but,

[00:10:04] Aaron: Wow. What year was

[00:10:06] Steve: a while. I think it was like eight years ago. Maybe it's weird because I guess our brains have forgetters because when it first happened after it happened, I was like, really. walking everywhere with trepidation, wondering, is this going to happen again right now? Am I going to die? Can I drink coffee? What has caused this? And I had to go to all these doctors and, they did all these tests in the hospital too, because they try to find out why did you have this? And a lot of times, they think you have a hole.

Somewhere in your heart and it's causing like a flutter so they go down and scope the inside of your heart. They check everything and then when they were done, they were just like the guy goes. The good news is your heart is like a 14 year old's heart. It's so healthy. Your lungs are so healthy.

your cholesterol is great. You're just like seriously really healthy. Then they start going, what do you eat? Cause for your age you're like really healthy. He goes, but the bad news is, is we have no clue why this happened. Cause they thought they could just give me like, those pills they give people for high cholesterol, statins and

They thought they could give me something for my heart. But he was like, The bad news is we don't know why this happened, and it could happen again, and the next time it'll probably just kill you. And I was like, thanks! I didn't even want to drive afterwards.

I was scared to do anything for a few months. And then somebody would make me, a latte at a coffee house. And they would put, like, art on the top, and I would just start crying. It was weird.

[00:11:34] Aaron: Wow. Yeah. Have you gotten your facilities back? Are you able to read now, or, I know you're obviously able to write and perform and drive and all of that.

[00:11:42] Steve: yeah, everything came back. I feel like maybe it was ten years ago, I feel like after it happened, I wasn't as able to read a whole book, like I'd rather listen to a book. So I listened to books all the time, I wasn't able to just sit and read a book anymore the way I used to. I read articles and stuff like that. And then also I became a deadhead, like I got really into the dead after it, like it would be something like one of those Robin Williams Awakenings movies, I only started listening to the Grateful Dead and I didn't listen to them prior to it, and I got really into like, The 72 Tour, 77, Barton Hall, like listening to these shows and analyzing what made these songs so good and what made it, these live performances, like which ones, why was it so interesting to me?

It was almost like listening to the dead live shows is like catching a wave in the ocean and you're like Floating, and they're in between songs and they're going, Tink, tink, tink, and they're just hitting their things. Everything sounds like it's a little out of tune and messed up. Then all of a sudden you're like, Whoa! Oh my God, did you hear that version of, Scarlet Begonias? How they just go into Scarlet Begonias and Phil Lesh's bass line, and Jerry's guitar playing, and he's singing, and there's like these strong eras of the dead. And those songs, I like the Great American Songbook now to me, especially Working Man's Dead and American Beauty, those two records.

And the Jerry Garcia solo record are like, those songs are amazing.

[00:13:24] Aaron: They are. They are

[00:13:25] Steve: with them. And Robert Hunter's lyrics, God,

[00:13:28] Aaron: when Jerry has a good show, the way he's able to deliver like the full spectrum of human emotion with both his voice and his guitar is pretty unparalleled. I think Michaela laughs because it's always been, there's been like a little rub because you that's listened to the dead knows that, you know, harmonies are not their strong suit, especially live.

[00:13:50] Michaela: You gotta,

you gotta, yeah.

[00:13:51] Steve: was singing,

[00:13:51] Michaela: Yeah. Oh, man. You gotta love it, I think, to appreciate it and I'm just you know, maybe someday I'll, have something happen that will open that valve for me I'm,

[00:14:01] Steve: should have a stroke.

It took a stroke to get me into the dead. Like I just was never into them. I used to kind of mock them, Yeah. weird. I liked,

the replacements. I still do. that's like one of my all time favorite band. I can really get in depth for each record they put out.

Like, I love it that they put out a record called Let It Be, and it's such a good record. And then their last record, All Shift Down, and all the solo Paul Westerberg stuff. I love the punk ethos and all that, and then after I had that stroke, I got really into jam bands.

[00:14:35] Michaela: Wait, do you know what kind of stroke it was? Was it an ischemic stroke or was it a hemorrhagic stroke?

[00:14:40] Steve: It was in the thalamus region of my brain. And it was, I think it was hemorrhagic.

[00:14:47] Michaela: so where there was blood on your brain versus where it like cuts off the oxygen. Okay. Yeah. It's interesting because My mom had a massive stroke a few years ago and she was 63 and hers is very debilitating, but part of the experience has opened up my newfound fascination with how our brains are and how they heal and just who knows how your brain changed and then what healed from that and what, different neural pathways you've built.

I wanted to talk about the, how you said how scary it was afterwards where you were going through life feeling like when could this happen again? And like, will it kill me? And I've gone through that with my mom of like, oh my god. This could happen at any moment again and she'll just die.

But then when I think about it, I'm like well, it did happen out of nowhere. And she was the same thing as you. They have no idea why. She's super fit, didn't smoke, didn't drink very, healthy and active and thin. But then I think about it, I'm like Something could just happen out of nowhere and kill me, any day, no matter how old I am, whether I've had a stroke or not he could get hit by a car, especially as a touring musician, as much as you travel, did you find it helpful at all once you were able to kind of overcome the fear of maybe then turning it into, If I don't know when I'm going to die, which none of us do, but that feels more viscerally close, how do I live my life? Did it have any change in that way for you?

[00:16:09] Steve: Yeah. I think about death all the time. Like, I'm kind of obsessed with it. I love the New York Times obituaries. It's like one of my first things I read. I'm a, New York Times junkie. And I go to certain sections first. And the first section is obituaries. Because I love, if you make the New York Times obituaries, you did something.

Either famous or infamous. or you did something that. I would never have known about you, like you invented whiteout or some weird thing and somebody who made a mark where they have the whole obituary board of the New York Times deems it worthy. And I love because then I go down a rabbit hole.

I discover someone that I never heard of maybe a woman who was an opera singer or a woman. Who was the first prime minister somewhere are served in some cabinet. And then I start looking at what did they do? What else did they do? And I go down these rabbit holes. And so I'm death obsessed and especially lately I have been because I'm not getting any younger and I'm, I don't know how old I am 63 your mom's age when she had hers and I think, man, number one, I feel really grateful that I did get all my skills back.

And I'm able to still do what I'm doing. But I also feel like every day is this weird little gift and it could all end in a second. And I've had enough accidents in my life where I've broken my hand, broken a bone in my finger, or bashed my head open on stage where. It happens when you least expect it or a car accident and like you alluded to earlier and how much you, we drive and travel and how anything can go wrong at any time or just being at home in Nashville.

tornado could come.

Yep.

gone. So you don't know, but I am death obsessed and especially lately because I will be 64 in February. And I think, man, yeah. Everything's going so good right now in my life,

You're just waiting. When will I end up because we all someday it just whatever happens happens. every day really is this cool little gift.

I'm lucky that I don't really suffer from depression and my mom did, but yeah, That gene seemed to have skipped me

hmm. I wake up pretty happy every morning.

[00:18:24] Michaela: Yeah, that's one of the things I wanted to ask. What we wanted to ask you is, as long as I've known you, especially within the community of musicians, I feel like you're very known for your beautiful, positive energy. And I'm like, is that something that you have to protect or nurture?

Or is that just what your makeup is?

[00:18:46] Steve: Oh

I seriously wake up in the morning and I have so much energy and Sharon will still be. Asleep in bed and I will be running around the room screaming the pulses are open for business The pulses are open for business and I'm opening the windows and I'm running like I'm in a parade and I run downstairs run up I run around the bed about five times jump up and down and she's like, oh my god Go downstairs and then

[00:19:15] Michaela: You would really get along with our two year old.

[00:19:18] Steve: Sometimes I'll look at her and she'll make the mistake of opening her eyes and looking at me and I'll go, are the pulses open for business? And she'll go, no, go back to sleep. And I have to go back to sleep because I want the pulses to be open for business. And so, then, when we're finally open for business, then I run downstairs and open all the curtains and everything, and I'm screaming the whole time, the pulses are open for business, and I'm running, and then I can't wait to turn on the hot water kettle, and I can't wait to make her a cup of tea, because that'll wake her up, the English breakfast tea, because we don't drink coffee, really, and then I can't wait to make my oats like, I wake up hungry, and the guitar is always sitting there on the couch, or next to the couch, and I grab it. I start playing it and I make my oats. I'm walking around. I call friends. And I'm just like totally happy. It's weird. And that's how my dad was too. I think I got that from him.

[00:20:12] Michaela: Do sound like our two year old. She wakes up so happy every day. we walked out to go to the car today and she went, oh, it's so beautiful out here.

it's so blue, like everything is just are you happy mommy? That's what she said. I am happy.

[00:20:28] Steve: yeah, my mom was really depressed. And so I used to not want to come back home after school. I would dread coming into our house because especially when we lived in Palm Springs in the desert and the house was always really dark. And she painted everything light blue I really feel that kind of affected her mood to the blue or something and then her room would be dark and I would come in and she would be crying and I wouldn't know why and I would try to cheer her up and I dreaded coming home because it was just darkness. But I loved, whatever city, if you ask me, how was the show, always like, it was the greatest show I ever played. and people are like, if they're

[00:21:14] Michaela: of shit.

[00:21:15] Steve: If they're with me and Sharon, Sharon will tell them the unvarnished truth of what she thought about it.

She'll always say, if you want a good time, ask Steve. If you want the truth, ask me. But, here's the thing, I'm not lying when I say it. Like, I really believe it was the greatest show. Cause I was up there, and I'm always experimenting. So no two shows are alike. That's why I fit into the Jambound world, I've decided is. I would never use a set list ever. I can't even write one. I don't have the attention span to do that. I just go up and I just start talking about what I did that day. And so there's an endless well of material. So it doesn't get stale to me. Like, all this starts saying, Oh my God, I drove into your guy's town.

Have you been to this place over here? And I start talking about things that are in their own town. And it could be any time. It could be Dayton, Ohio, Toledo, Ohio, whatever, and I'll say to a town, every town, no matter what it is, Omaha, Nebraska, all has a cool little area with people that are trying to make something that's not just the Walmartization of America.

There's like little crafty people doing stuff. And that's what I'm drawn to is what kind of scene have they created there.

And it's super fun. Even on the road is fun for me If all there is, is a Starbucks and a Chipotle. They're always next to each other in some nondescript area where you're just like, I know I can find those two things really quick and I can go in.

I know exactly what I want, I can get that veggie burrito at Chipotle

[00:22:53] Aaron: Uh

[00:22:54] Steve: and I love talking to the people that work there. That's one of my favorite things. I love talking to strangers, but looking them right in the eye. And not being intimidating, but asking them, how's it going?

do you like working here? Do people order weird stuff? Like, Just something like, have you read any good books? Or what movie did you see? What are you watching? And I really believe people want to tell you what they're into and what they're watching. And I'm genuinely interested.

And then when I get on stage, I'll say, The girl that made my burrito at Chipotle off of the interstate, if you guys drive two hours there's this nice girl that works at the Chipotle, you should go in and ask her because she gave me a cool movie recommendation on Netflix or a series, and go in there and I think she has like a secret career as a film reviewer.

And then I go next door to the Starbucks and I'm excited because I have enough reward stars I go, I got a whole free protein box with the two eggs and that little English muffin thing with the almond butter. And the apple slices. I can just eat that while I'm driving. I'm like, that was so good.

And I always get the medium sized tea with a splash of milk. And I show up at the gig. And I get to start messing around on my guitar. And it's super fun. There might be somebody else on the bill that I get to meet. And I learned something from them. So life every day is this like little treasure hunt.

then you go into the town and that's where they have like the cool hipster coffee shop. You're not going to go to the Starbucks in a town, obviously, that has the independently owned stuff. And there's always new things to see when you come into town.

So I picked the ultimate job. that's why my joie vivre or whatever is not fake. It's real in

Yeah.

I'm just lucky that I get to do this.

[00:24:45] Michaela: So how has that served you? Cause I feel like I can imagine some people who struggle to look at the world through that lens and have more of a pessimistic view or feel like they could look at it and be like well, that's probably just because Steve's life is great and he's had great opportunities.

So like, how has that attitude served you in times when it. You could kind of like objectively say that was a really shitty show or you lost a lot of money that day or that was a rough tour or like some hardship or disappointment within the career aspect,

[00:25:21] Steve: Well, able to just dust yourself off and be like, yeah, that was tough, but actually it was great because there were two people there and like, Yeah.

[00:25:29] Michaela: Yeah.

[00:25:29] Steve: Yeah. oh, believe me. I've had horrible shows. You have to. I've been doing this so long. For 35, 40 years I've been on the road. I've had horrible shows where I played to three people, two of whom were working in the bar and why was I even doing the show? You know, I've had bands in the rug burns where I had a fist fight with the drummer, you know, where we were both pleading like I've had tours where I've come home and I've been so demoralized.

And so just like, I can't even do this. and I've been stiffed on pay, all of that. But that being said, Everything I did, I never quit. And so there were times I wanted to quit, but I went, I'm going to just keep going. And I never gave up because I had my eye on, I'd always come home and go, there was 12 people there, but next time there's going to be 24

But, here's the thing. You know how they say the first tenet of Buddhism is Why is the Buddha smiling?

is because he knows that life is suffering. And so when bad things happen, he just goes, Of course it sucks. It's supposed to. Life sucks. but I find humor in that.

. Yes, there's things I hate that happen where I get bummed out. Like where I think, why am I not doing better in this city? How many times do I have to go to Iowa and keep drawing 12 people?

[00:26:52] Steve: But what is it about Iowa that hates me And then I think as I get older, I just go, I'm not going to go back to certain places where I just feel like it's not working because there's enough places where things are working. Do I want to be bigger in these cities? Yeah, but, you take what you can get.

And then I think what's the show? Good. Did it bring me joy? And I'd be happy playing to a hundred people in a small room, as long as the room is packed and they're pushed really close to the stage and it has a low ceiling it's dark out there in the audience, well lit on the stage.

That, to me, is the gold where everybody's shoulder to shoulder and you can feel the energy exchange. I like that.

[00:27:37] Aaron: Yeah. I bring that up a lot on this show is like. in my days of being a sideman and touring with people like, I was able to play arenas and play big things, and it's like, I would much rather play a show that's small and intimate and people are engaged.

You brought up, thinking of Working Man's Dead and American Beauty. We played this show, this is years ago now, in San Francisco at Hyde Street Studios in the Tenderloin. It used to be Wally Hyder Studios or whatever it's where. American Beauty. either American Beauty or Working Man's Dead is where it was recorded and we played in that studio.

There's a picture of Jerry on the wall and I set up the drums like right where he had his steel set up like all of that. This is like kind of uh invite only show but it was packed. You know, It was in the live room of the studio and it was so magical and it was so fun because like everybody's kind of just sitting on the floor and listening and everybody was engaged and it was like if there were 70 people there, I'd be surprised, but the energy was there and like the crowd was holding up their end of the bargain of listening and being good audience members and we were playing and having a great time and it the energy in the room was perfect.

And I'd take that any day of the week.

[00:28:35] Steve: Yes! you're speaking my language. I just love those moments. One of the things I gotta learn is to end a show. Which has taken me a long time.

used to have a manager that said, Steve, there's a beginning, a middle, and an end.

[00:28:52] Michaela: Wait, but how do you do it when you, cause you open for people. you know, you, when you open for someone, you have your time slot.

[00:28:58] Steve: If I open for somebody, I'm great at adhering to exactly, you give me the parameters. I don't ever want at a festival, I hate it when somebody has one of those cards that goes, 10 minutes, and they come walking up. I always tell them, don't do that. And they go, what do you mean? That's my job. They're like a volunteer and they want to do their job.

I go, please don't. I use my iPhone. I have this big digital letters. If you tell me my end time is 3. 05, I guarantee you, right when it hits 3. 06, I'm hitting the last chord.

I never go over. because that's my spot. And I don't want to be that person that's a dickhead up there, and then talking to everybody at the stage while the band's waiting to bring their things up.

I'm like, I'll meet you back at the merch. I grab everything, I get it off stage. There's nothing worse than a musician that sits there, Hey, how's it going? You're waiting. There's only a 15 minute Changeover sometimes or 20 if you're lucky and you're like get off go Be gone, and especially when people go over I hate that I'm talking about when I headline because I don't really do that many opening slots anymore So when I headline, I don't even have an opener a lot of times And I do two sets.

That's just how much of The Dead I like. I love doing two sets. But I gotta learn to end the damn show. Because I love what I'm doing so much, I'm so guilty of playing too long. It's like, no dude, Sharon has a good saying, cause she used to cut hair and own her own hair salon. And she'd say, that was a great haircut five minutes ago.

[00:30:29] Michaela: Sharon is like the ideal partner for you. I feel like she's

[00:30:34] Steve: yeah, she has no qualms about

woman. Yeah.

like, you played way too long. And I'll be like, what do you mean? She'll go, it was a great haircut five minutes ago. Like, You should have ended it. And, most of the time she's right. But, I'm selfish. And I just want to keep playing the songs because I want another hit off of the crack pipe.

And so I gotta learn to just like, put the crack pipe down. That's how much fun it is playing to me. I seriously, it's still a mystery to me. I'm still in search of the perfect show. And that's why I don't want to die. And that's why I get excited. So, like, Thinking of the other 22 hours in a day. For me. I wake up. I want to make my oats. If I'm not on the road, people think, how do you do that? Don't you go crazy?

You'd think I would. I do have a weird thing in my head where I feel like, and I know I'm not that old, but I feel like I'm a depression era kid. Meaning, know, like they said, there were depression era parents that grew up and they saved their money and they They were scared to do anything. My thing is I'm a depressionary kid. Meaning none of this has come easy to me. I've been playing since. I was six years old. I started playing guitar and I played recitals. I had a uncle who would have me dress up as Oliver and I would sing. dress me up as old Jewish man. And I do, he dressed me up like cabaret and I do Joel Gray's parts.

So I grew up. Always playing and then playing classical guitar recitals and then playing in church folk mass in the Catholic Church. Like, I was an altar boy, couldn't wait to get in folk mass and then playing in college at University of San Diego in folk mass in college, and then playing in coffee houses.

It's what I've done. And so I've had to fight for every gig I've gotten. Nobody handed me anything. I never had a hit song. Jewel had a hit song, but I didn't. Now the hit song did help pay for my of my career, but that came way later. I was sleeping on people's floors, sharing hotel rooms that were the crappiest hotel room, sleeping in a van.

I've done it all and then kept going. So I had to fight for that. So I still have that depression. Attitude of, I don't want to say no to any gig. And it's my biggest fights with Sharon and my manager are about doing fewer gigs learning to say no.

Even just the other day I, haven't been sleeping well because I just turned down two gigs. In the midwest because my manager's like you'll have been gone too long. Just take that time off. I'm like, I don't need time off I have this whole really belligerent attitude when somebody says, No, you'll have been gone, six weeks straight, and you'll have had only three days off.

I'm like, I don't need time off! I look at him like, I'm not a wimp, I have this thing where Like I really wanted to do 365 gigs in a year and no one, my manager and my booking agent just will not do it. I said, it'll be called the 365 project. It'll be a gig in a different city for a whole year. I'll document it.

They go, we won't do it. They just flat out. So they tell me not to take gigs and I'm like, you're not making money then on these two gigs. They go, learn to say no. My booking agent, Adam will say, dude, that show was way too long. You should not play a six hour show. There was a time I did a show at Jabba Joe's and I had this manager and I told the audience I came out there's 350 people sold out.

And I said, this is so much fun, I'm going to play until everybody's either asleep or they're gone. And I played a nine hour show, only people left was Java Joe, and three people in the audience. Two who were asleep, and one guy was still awake and he finally fell asleep. And I ran around the room singing, We Are The Champions.

Just stupidity. Like, If you want to talk about a stupid career, I've done all the stupidest and dumbest things that you can ever do. I've done it all. Dumb things that I regret. Just bad moves. somehow, I'm still alive and doing it. And I still have these arguments with my booking agent where I'll say, I'll play the Ark in Ann Arbor.

And that's where Adam lives. He'll come out and go, Dude, why didn't you stop after 90 minutes? It was a great show. Like you don't need to do a three hour show. Like three hours to me was me going, Hey, I did pretty good. I shortened it. No, if you want to do two sets, do a 50 minute set. Then stand by the merch because you'll sell more merch on the break.

People say, are you going to play this? Because I got a thousand songs. And so that's why every show is different. And then, go back out on stage and go, someone requested this. And then, you will sell so much more merch if you go out to the merch. If you're into that. And that goes back to my whole thing of, I need to make sure I'm making money. And putting it away for my future. Like I probably could retire and not do this and not have to worry about it. Cause I, since the 90s I took money on the road and we just put it into a Charles Schwab account and had a guy just take care of it.

And I've never taken money out. But I'm like, I got to keep going, got to keep going. And now I've got to learn to shift my mind to going, Hey, you don't need to work so hard, but I'm an addict. So I transferred drinking and cocaine to work.

Yeah. Mm hmm. So my other 22 hours are, I can still relax, but I'm working on songs or I'm going on walks, listening to books.

[00:36:10] Michaela: we've been at several festivals together and you have so much energy that you're putting out, but there's also like this level of calm that I think you exude. when I have a lot of energy, I feel like it's kind of panicky and so excited But then I've been told by my brother and my husband that I'm dog like chasing the tennis ball wherever Somebody throws it next The first day of Kayamo, when we were all in the artist meeting, I was so overstimulated of like onboarding the ship and we had our child with us and I was like, one of those where I was like talking to you, but I couldn't hold your gaze and I was like, I'm so overwhelmed right now.

I'm just looking at who's all here and, I feel like I'm gonna like, freak out and you were like, Makayla, look into my eyes. Let's just stare at each other. Let's just breathe and we were in this like auditorium with like windows all around the ocean and there was all these people and I would look away and you're like, no, right here.

I'm like, okay, what do you do? What do you do to possess that?

[00:37:13] Steve: these are great questions, by the way, this is the best podcast I've ever been on. So. Every day is the greatest day. You have to say that. But okay, getting back to your question, I have this friend named Bob Schneider and he lives in Austin, Texas. And he's probably, I don't know. He's one of my best friends ever.

what I notice is whenever I'm talking to him, he's looking me right in the eyes. Almost like he's looking through my soul. And I always admired that. I've known him since the 90s. I went, I want to be like Bob.

And be present. And I just started doing that. And then there was a baseball player I used to really like and he played for the Yankees he played second base. His name is Willie Randolph I call myself the Willie Randolph of folk singers because. I was obsessed with him.

He would walk to the plate and he would be so slow when he walked up. He'd just take his time. He'd take the bat, just kind of slowly do this. Then he'd hit it and he'd be like, and he'd run so fast. And I go, I'm so into him. And that's how I feel like. I feel so calm before I go on. I could be at Port Ferry Folk Festival in Australia, about to go on 5, 000 people.

And I feel like I'm in the center of a hurricane and everything's calm. I don't know where I got it from, but I will walk out and I always say a prayer before I go on stage. I try to remind myself and it's the quickest prayer. I just thank whatever. My idea of the powers that be are I just think that Entity that I get to do this.

I always go. Thanks for giving me these skills Let me go out and make people forget how shitty life is and I kind of just laugh and then I go Remember everything's riding on this one gig which is a big joke. I have that none of this really matters I could go on stage opening for the Wood Brothers to a crowd that wasn't expecting me there.

1100 people at the Orange Peel in Asheville, North Carolina. And I walk out on stage in my younger days I used to be intimidated. I feel so at home when I walk out and I just start talking shit to the audience.

And an audience can tell if you're scared of it, just like a horse can when you get on a horse.

And if you go out, and you're in control, and you're calm, they just know it this is where I'm supposed to be. And I go out, and before I go out, I always picture my last song, how my guitar's over my head like this, I'm holding it up, and everybody's going, smiling, and they have their arms up, going, yeah!

I always know that's how the gig's gonna end because I already visualized it Even if things don't work, I used to get intimidated you know who dan bern is?

He's a really good songwriter he wrote all the songs in that movie walk hard the dewey cox

[00:39:59] Aaron: mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.

[00:40:00] Steve: He was on Ani DiFranco's label, and he's a really good writer. The only reason I bring him up is just to show you my journey. In the 90s, I opened for him at a club called Rosebud, and that club was in Pittsburgh. And I've never forgotten this. I went out on stage, and I was so intimidated, and I had that voice in my head saying, That girl in the front row hates you. Oh my God. this is not good. You need to do something. Everybody hates you. This is not working. I went inside myself and I sucked, and I did not do a good show, and I didn't even go out, I had all my merch set up at the back, after the show I didn't even go out to the merch, I left through the back door and just left my merch there and never went back to get it, because I was so humiliated in how shitty I was, and I went back to the hotel room, I couldn't sleep, and I was just, all I was saying was, you're an idiot, that crowd hated you, you're an idiot, And then the same thing happened to me once at another gig at Slim's in San Francisco in the 90s, opening for Lucinda Williams, and I went, I didn't go out and get my merch.

And I had a few other times where I was just like shaking so bad and I thought, why? There was nothing I could do to get over this. I had such stage fright after the rug burns broke up and my hands would be shaking and then there was nothing I could do but go out and just keep playing every night. I don't have any.

thing where this is what you need to do. Picture the audience naked or that. No. I had to go out and every night get my ass kicked until finally I was so used to getting my ass kicked there was no more, nothing else they could do where I went none of this really matters and then I started going back out and going getting my groove. It wasn't like I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth or everything was handed to me. In fact, the only reason I got a hit song with Jewel even was I kept saying yes to everything. I said yes to anybody that wanted to write a song, any gig that was offered to me in San Diego. And she just happened to be working at a coffee house and everybody said, Oh, that girl, that's Jewel.

She's a barista. You should hear her sing. She's good. I was like, Oh, okay, cool. And she said to me. How do I get a following like the Rugburns? Because we had a pretty good following in San Diego. And I go, Oh, let me hear your music. I watched her sing. I said, here's what you need to do.

You're like real folky. She said, you want to write a song? Oh, yeah. So we started writing songs. I go, let's drive around and find a coffee house. Where nobody's playing and make it your own. Cause that's what I did with the rug burns, create your own scene. I always believe this. If you're good, people are going to come see you if you play every week, but do it at a place that is not known for music, like really think outside the box.

So we found this place called the interchange and she started playing there and we would write songs and then she would play there every week. And then she would hand out flyers for gigs and after a year and a half, that was when everybody was still getting record deals and stuff, but it all takes work.

And a lot of times people want the easy route of what can I do? You know, I've lost agents before, I've had agents drop me. That's the worst feeling when your agent drops you. I've been dropped by record labels. I've run my own record label, which I'm not good at. this is a thing. Sharon's really organized.

Mmhm,

I'm not really good at things except playing music and I can make up songs with anybody. And I like cooking food while I'm home or going on walks. do nothing really well. Like, I could easily be retired. I thought I would go crazy not playing, because I've been home the last month. But I'm really good at doing nothing.

[00:43:35] Michaela: Maybe you, like, have to have that,

because you are so energetic and active and on the go that then to balance that you need to be, like, this is the time that I'm totally still. But I wanted, I wanted to kind of respond to what you were saying about like, having that stage fright and going inward, and being convinced like, oh, that person's looking at their phone, they hate me like, you know, the things that you can do on stage, especially when you're an opener, of just being like, oh my god, do they like me? I feel like something shifted for me when I very consciously was like, oh, I've been going out on stage thinking that it was the audience's job to make me feel good that it was the audience's job to tell me I'm good.

They clap for me. they give me my report card, I can tell if they like me. And my mind really changed when I was like, wait, no, it's my job to make the audience feel I'm not going on stage to be taken care of. I'm going on stage to offer. To make them feel things.

I set the tone. I have this immense power by standing on this stage in front of all these people and what am I gonna do with it? I'm not going out there going, am I okay? And I really realized that's how I was Emotionally operating for a long time and it made performing really Torturous I still get anxiety but I enjoy it so much more When I don't get thrown if people are talking or I can like address it and I feel comfortable on stage It's like an animal that gets uncomfortable or scared because they can sniff out that you're scared.

the other thing about, that, when I was really young and I started performing, I would have a very physical response to my anxiety. And I still do sometimes, extreme cotton mouth, like my throat would cut off in the middle of a song, really sweaty hands, we were literally talking about minutes before you came on like, I'm just like a high, nerve person.

I get flutters of nerves or anxiety literally every time we sign on to this. to talk to somebody. And I'm like, is it anxiety or is it excitement? I don't know. I want to do it, but I get like a flutter. I might feel a little clammy like, and someone told me, I think I was like in high school and it was like a cousin's boyfriend who was older and was an opera singer.

And he was like, literally the only thing you can do to teach your body to have a, different response to your adrenaline rush is to keep putting your body. In that scenario, you can't like work on it in the comfort of your own home. You have to keep putting yourself in that, flight or fight position of standing on stage in front of people so your body can over and over learn, Okay, I'm reacting in this way because I'm scared and this is my defense mechanism and I need to alert you that this is scary, you're in danger. And the more you do it, the more you can train your body.

To relax and realize, oh, I'm safe up here, it's okay, I don't have to get caught in mouth and choke and like, try and tell myself to get off this stage like, and I really realized like, oh, what a metaphor for life. The only way to overcome these fears and things is to just keep going through it.

[00:46:48] Steve: Yes, and you know what else? One little trick I know I was just saying like, the only thing to do is just like I had to keep going out and playing. One thing I will say that did help me was being really honest to the audience because fear. We make ourselves, we just make it up in our head. And so if I'm able to tell the audience, man, all I really wanted was for you guys to like me, which is so weird, which I think goes back and I'll say to the audience, I'm like, I think it goes back to my mom.

I wanted to cheer her up. I didn't know if she really liked me. Because she was crying every day and I would get scared and right now I'm scared playing, but it's not even I have to tell you where I'm at and then I was like, Oh, I've addressed the dragon and almost slayed the dragon by bringing it out and not letting it lay dormant in the back of my brain lurking over me as a known unknown.

hmm. To quote Donald Rumsfeld, We have known knowns and known unknowns.

[00:47:53] Michaela: That's a first on this podcast.

[00:47:54] Steve: Mm Quoted Donald Rumsfeld, what? But to have a known unknown, which is fear, but then tell the audience, man, one thing that took me a long time to learn is, things just don't always work in my show.

Oh but I'm not running it by a team of writers. And in my mind, I'll think, Oh, this is going to be a good thing. This is going to work good. And then I'll do it crickets. And then the best thing is to say, man, last night, I thought this was going to be the coolest part of the show. And it wasn't. And that is the best thing. Because either way, you're getting them. If it doesn't work, then you address that it didn't work. And everybody knows it didn't work. it's funny because it's true. That whole thing, that whole cliche of it's funny because it's true, works. So then, you're handed this gift.

It's like Jiu Jitsu. You're using the weight of the audience to throw the whole thing back at them because it didn't work. and then the best bonus is, then you go, let me try it again and see if it works this time. And I guarantee you, sometimes it will work. Because you've addressed that it didn't.

And I'll go, half half of you agree with me, right? Who doesn't?And like, it's just like this whole thing where my brain's thinking 20 steps ahead. And that's why after a show, it's really hard for me to go to sleep my brain's going zing, zing, zing.

I could have done this better. Could have done that better. Zing, zing, zing, zing, Zing. And then I go, I know what I'll do. I'll read the obituaries in the New York Times. Feel good about the death of someone else. Read about And my other thing is, I like saying to Sharon, what do you think that person said, especially if it's a story, the guy went out to the liquor store and just happened to go in at the wrong time and there was a hold up and he got shot.

I go, what do you think that guy said to his wife? Like I want a coffee table book of what were the last words people said before they went out. Hey, I'll be right back. Or don't forget to pick up milk. What? And then they took enough time to come back and go, I forgot my wallet. Had they not forgotten their wallet, that guy wouldn't have run the red light at that time they left.

I'm obsessed with Is there a plan, or is everything just random chaos? Is it all just the chaos theory? I tend to think it's all just chaos. And we make a choice. And we open up a window in their side of our brain and we make that choice. Hey, guess what? Which is something I did years ago. I left my job selling nipples.

I was a nipple salesman for a plastics company. And so I sold pipe nipples, which are threaded pieces of pipe. And that was my job I graduated from college and I talked to the people that supply the landscape contractors. And I would come in from the factory and say, Hey, I have these elbows and these pipe nipples that are half inch by six.

We got a special on them. That was my job. And then I was playing music at night and I had a college degree. And then one day I said, I'm going to go play music on the streets of Europe. took courage and I went in and asked my boss for nine months off and he gave me it. I couldn't believe it. He said, why?

And I go, I want to go play guitar on the streets of Europe. He was like, you're insane. I'll do it. Like he'd let me go. And then I went over there and because I took as I opened up the window in my brain and took a step where I wasn't supposed to go, this whole world opened up. And when I'm on my deathbed, if I'm get to live that long where I get to look back at my life, that is one of the highlights in my whole life that I'll always look back on those nine months I had no plan. I had complete freedom. It was one of the funnest times of my life, and it took courage for me to do that. And then when I came back, I was like, I don't have to sell nipples anymore. I have a superpower. I can either be the greatest nipple salesman, or I can become a folk singer on a slow rise to the middle. What sounds better? And that's what I meant. I'm on the slow rise to the middle and over here is that nipple career always taunting me. You could have been

[00:51:54] Aaron: it could have

[00:51:55] Steve: of nipple sales.

[00:51:57] Aaron: I mean, but that is so powerful though. I like to think of it as sticking it stick in the spokes. you could always go back to being a nipple salesman. You could always go back to, playing the safe route and playing the same show every night and doing what works because that's familiar.

Or, you can try this thing, and completely eat shit, and scrape your knees, but have a blast doing it, and all of a sudden you're like, Oh, I could do this every night, it's a fun character study of yourself. And what could happen.

[00:52:23] Michaela: there's also, of the things that cannot be overestimated when, In life in general is the power to feel detached from what a moment of failure means. So like when your bit doesn't work, some people might react to that experience with feeling, extremely mortified and so disheartened and like, well, I'm bad at this and I.

Need to give up and I need to go back to my nipple job and other people might be like that didn't work I bombed. Okay, that was a thing Let's try again, you know, Erin says all the time like it's how we react to those perceived failures Rather than the actual failure itself and we all have different like natural Emotional responses to that stuff what this means about me as a person and I think we are able to train ourselves, I hope to be like, wait, what if this wasn't that big of a deal?

I bombed a room of, you know, a thousand people didn't laugh at my joke that felt pretty embarrassing and disheartening. versus, oh my God, I'm gonna never show my face again and I'm gonna give up and never put myself out there. And it's like that ability to be okay with things not turning out the way that you wanted them to.

With feeling embarrassed. With feeling extremely vulnerable, which is all really hard stuff. But some of us, I'm saying some of us, but I'm not really included. I think I have a hard time with this , but some of us are unbothered by it. Or able to kind of bounce back.

[00:53:55] Steve: I've been bothered by it for a long time. You're a lot younger than I am. I don't want to ask you how old you are, but I know you're younger than I am.

[00:54:02] Michaela: Oh, I don't care. I'm 37.

[00:54:03] Steve: okay, so yeah, I'm going to be 64. So when I was 37, it was 1997. And I was in the rug burns. Dating Jewel and we were starting to play like Jay Leno and Letterman and stuff, but I was also on the rug burns and I would bomb at certain shows and it would really stick with me there's two things I was thinking of when you were saying that.

One is, you know how they say pride is one of the seven deadly sins? I suffered from pride a lot, meaning I didn't want to admit. I failed at something. I want to just act like, no, I killed it. But no, the thing, I do stay positive and go, it was the greatest show, but I, I'm being facetious when I say that.

it took me a long time to admit that I had a shitty show or something didn't work. it goes back to that thing of slaying the dragon. Of the known unknowns. Thank you Donald Rumsfeld. My spirit animal. So, The known unknowns I was scared I didn't want to admit that, had too much pride.

By then admitting and going, man, can tell an audience, go, I really wasn't good last night. And I'm taking it on you guys tonight. And I'll say, you know why tonight's so good? Because I really wasn't good last night. I wanted to be, but I just wasn't. And then the other thing I wanted to say was the best thing my mom did for me was she gave me a sense of stick to itiveness, meaning I got guitar lessons, but she made me promise, okay, I'll pay for your guitar lessons, but you have to practice 45 minutes every day. And I got the guitar and I was like, I wanted to be Elvis Presley. It was 1966. I loved Elvis. And then I was like, what? I have to practice? I can't just be Elvis? And that was the hardest thing. And she was like, no, you're practicing. She was very strict. Like you hear about parents that are like, the kid can do anything they want.

I didn't grow up like that. My parents were like When people come over, you sit with us, and you ask them questions. I really appreciate that she did this. Like, What do you mean? Ask them questions. How are you doing, Mrs. Burt? What's going on? And they would be proud of me, because I'd say, Oh, what was that like? And I would have to do that. And then I finally, when it was time and the adults be alone, I'd have to say, may I be excused now? Yes. Thank you. It was really nice to see you stand up, shake their hands. Like they were really into that decorum of that

Yeah. Mm-Hmm? Etiquette. And the other thing was, if you say you're going to practice, you're going to practice.

I don't care what you say, you're not going out to play. And I'd have temper tantrums about it. I'd be so mad. But then a funny thing happened. It takes 21 days to make or break a habit. I started playing and I would be drooling. I would forget to swallow and drool would come down. Because I'd be trying to learn a classical guitar passage and you forget to swallow.

And that's when you know you're having a good session when the drool just drops out of your mouth onto the guitar. That was like, man. I wouldn't even know an hour went by. So I really am grateful. like, I was on the wrestling team. I didn't make the basketball team.

I was so sad, it broke my heart. all the girls, the cute girls were the cheerleaders. And the wrestlers had mat maids. Mat maids. Wrestling was like all the people that couldn't make the cheerleading squad and all the people that couldn't make the basketball team. It was like a room of rejects.

That's, and so I was rejected and I had to be on the wrestling team. I was a 98 pounder, but I only weighed 92. And my mom's like, you can't quit. And by then I already knew I couldn't quit. And other people would quit the wrestling team. But man, I was 9th grade, 10th grade, 11th grade, 12th grade. By my senior year, I became captain of the team.

I went from being like a guy who got pinned and got his ass kicked to being a really good wrestler. I shot up to 106 pounds by my senior year. I was really good. And I was in the choir, the Madrigals, which was the top singing group. We would travel and sing. But I couldn't tell anybody on the wrestling team I was in Madrigals because That was like gay and you know, it was like 1976 and it was just a different world back then.

And I was playing classical guitar and then I joined up with people, went away with them for a year. I was in folk mass and then went to college, but I never quit anything. And I think that is what, Benefited me was her giving me that my dad would have let me quit. He was always the gentle one. But my mom was like, she was the one who was the tough one.

And because of that, I never quit doing this. And that's the only reason I even have a modicum of success is because I never quit. I was just like, I got to keep going. Got to keep going. Got to make weight. Got to make 98 pounds. Got a wrestling match coming up, meaning for music. I applied My work ethic from being in that stinky wrestling room having to lose weight to make 98 pounds when I was 101 and having to go, I got to make weight.

I got to match. I've got to win this match and never stopping doing my studies. If I didn't get all A's, I'd have hell to pay. I better read that. I better learn how to write. I better know the difference between your and your and how to spell things. My mom was an English teacher. And so everything was like, if I didn't do my homework, I was in trouble.

[00:59:17] Michaela: You learn discipline. Mm-Hmm.

[00:59:19] Steve: Yeah. And I really believe that paid off because the only reason I'm able to even do this for a living is because I just never quit,

Yeah,

kept doing it.

[00:59:29] Aaron: man. Yeah. I've heard, it said in a few various ways, but like, that's, the one thing that you see with every artist that is out there touring. have careers that are measured in decades. It's like, just stick to it,

[00:59:40] Steve: I love picturing Bruce Springsteen loading in his own gear, up five flights of stairs,

In a van. That guy did that.

Anybody who you think is like the star that has it so easy, Hell no. He's pissed now that he's not as big as Taylor Swift.

You know what I mean? He's like, You

[00:59:58] Michaela: Honestly, though, I was like, did Taylor Swift do that, though? Not to take away from her because she's a genius, but like, I don't know if she did that. some musicians that are from a young age, or in the like, major label machine like, they get paid for buses right

[01:00:14] Aaron: away.

You've got to adjust it for age, right? So Taylor was, you know, one of those people that, Her first record she was like 16, right? Yeah, so at like 12 years old I'm sure there was like a recital where you're right. She wasn't the top one at the recital, you know, you just got to adjust it But I

[01:00:27] Michaela: think the point also is everything is relative.

I read a Time Magazine interview with piece about Taylor Swift and she was talking about how she feels like she lost her career around the time her record, reputation. Like, I'm like, what? There was ever a time where Taylor Swift didn't have a career? But that was like her experience.

we all have our Experiences that feel valid and doesn't matter if someone else is like, well, but mine's harder or mine was, objectively, less money or whatever. It doesn't really matter. And so it's just whatever it is if you just keep sticking to it, it's gotta change.

[01:01:03] Steve: You are so right. Like right before I did this podcast with you guys, I did a, My first Zoom co write. With a guy in Virginia named Paul Reisler,and he taught music theory, and he teaches at Folks Fest, Rocky Mountain Folks Fest every year, He knows so much about music and I just did my first zoom co write with him

Mhm.

and I went into it going I do not even want to do this zoom co write got back to back things then I'm doing this podcast and that zoom co write blew my head open I felt like I was getting a music theory lesson from this guy we were talking about the key of G because I went to F or something.

I don't know what I did. I went to an F sharp or something. I can't even remember He was like that works because it's in the, G minor family, which is different from the G family. So you can take these relative chords from there. And, And I was just going, wow, what's that chord you're playing?

And he was showing me things and we were writing this song. Is it the greatest song we've ever written? No, but we did it and I went, man, I want to write more with this guy because I feel like I was able to take a lot of information from him and I didn't think I was going to enjoy it at all. But Zoom co writes, if you're with somebody that's really good.

That's like a whole new thing that I've never done until today.

[01:02:23] Michaela: Yeah, I haven't done

[01:02:24] Aaron: that yet. You've done that. I've done a lot of them and I hated them. in sticking to it. the last one I did was with three people. So three of us all in different places. And it was actually fun. It got to that point where there was like, that kind of swirling energy where like everybody's tossing ideas and it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I felt that.

[01:02:44] Steve: Do you guys write together?

[01:02:45] Aaron: we actually don't not like from point of creation, I'm like the problem solver kind

[01:02:51] Michaela: of

sort things out. There's songs where I'm like, this song is done except for this one verse. And Erin will be like, Oh, you should say this, this, this.

And I'm like, that works.

[01:02:58] Aaron: I'll be like, why do you say this, this, this? And she's like, no. I know what I need to say, you know, I throw stuff out and she knows definitely what not to do, which is, you know, in the end she's answering her questions.

So it's all good.

[01:03:09] Michaela: Aaron's a

[01:03:09] Steve: Now do

[01:03:10] Michaela: covert lyricist. It's not something he advertises or thinks is like his strength. He's always like, I'm a track guy. he produces the stuff, but he's a great lyricist.

[01:03:21] Aaron: It's all just fear,

[01:03:22] Steve: The guy that I wrote with today was like, this rhyme is from the same family as this rhyme, so we're in this. He was like so analytical about it. It was blowing my mind open because I'm a really instinctual writer I have a lot to learn from this guy and it put me in the best mood to do this interview with you guys because I was like, man, My mind's blown.

I can't wait to do this again with this person, but I could see how it could be a horrible thing. Now, do you do a lot of session work,

[01:03:53] Aaron: I do.

[01:03:53] Steve: You're a guy that gets asked to do sessions. Do you, Michaela, get asked to do sessions? I never do.

[01:03:59] Michaela: Like harmony singing or something?

[01:04:01] Steve: Yesterday I got asked to do a session and I went into the Wood Brothers studio. There's a guy making a record. He wanted me to play guitar on something. I was like, I'm not a sightie.

Yeah.

go, you're going to see you've made the wrong choice. He goes, no, I want you to sing and I want you to play guitar on this.

I want you to do a lead right here. And I'm like, there's a guy. 000 guys in Nashville that are better at this than I am right now, and I can name 10 of them for you. And I kept trying to fire myself from the gig.

Yeah.

And he was like, I want what you do. You have a uniqueness. So I went in and I did it. I don't even get asked to sing on people's records. But he asked me to sing a verse like I never get asked to do side work And it used to hurt my feelings, but now it's like the known unknown and by me saying it once again Thank you to the patron saint donald rumsfeld who by the way is sponsoring this podcast from his grave.

I would like to say that This has helped me a lot because I just don't get asked to be on people's records and it used to hurt my feelings, but now i'm like Well, I just do my own thing

Yeah,

[01:05:00] Michaela: I think also, I don't know, like we lived in New York City for 10 years before moving here and like when I lived in New York, we went to college there, so we had our music community and then I got a lot of gigs singing harmony for people and live stuff. So then I was like connected and like, oh, I would get asked to sing to background singing gigs for sessions and stuff.

And then moving to Nashville. I didn't advertise that so I'd get asked far less because there's also like people who are known for like, that's what they do They're the ones that get the call and I've I've sometimes also been like, oh I used to get called all the time in New York Like how come I don't now and I'm like, cuz I don't really advertise that or push that and Then it was like well, I really like singing lead

[01:05:41] Steve: I bet you're great though doing BGVs.

[01:05:44] Michaela: I can sing Very high, so I'm good at like a soprano part and I can hear high harmonies, but if you were asking me to like layer, like I'll do some sessions for his stuff. It takes me longer, to hear lower harmonies. If somebody feeds me, sing this, then I can sing it back and do great.

But if I have to like find the part myself, it takes me a bit longer where I'm comparing myself to harmony singers who are just like, Oh, what's the melody? Cool. Here's three other harmony parts that I'm just like, those are the people that should be getting the call.

[01:06:16] Steve: bet Aaron could do that.

[01:06:17] Aaron: I can find it.

I come from a music, theory side. I can sit down on a piano. I can be like, cool. Yeah, this is the upper harmony. Here's some upper harmonies. Here's some lower harmonies. it's very analytical to me.

[01:06:27] Steve: What's your main instrument? What?

[01:06:29] Aaron: instrument, but I played.

Bass and guitar and keys, I'm not a lead player on any of that, but

[01:06:35] Michaela: also our romance started by him helping me. Identify some low harmonies in a transcription we had to do in an ear training class at jazz

[01:06:47] Aaron: school. We were transcribing this like vocal, acapella jazz group and

[01:06:52] Steve: What school?

[01:06:53] Aaron: The new school for jazz and contemporary music in New York city. So

[01:06:57] Steve: how you guys met?

[01:06:58] Aaron: yeah,

[01:06:59] Michaela: 20 years

[01:07:00] Steve: cool. I love hearing

Yeah.

[01:07:02] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. We had ear training classes back to back. We weren't in the same class, but it was the same class but different hours, so he would leave and I would go in, so we had all the same assignments.

[01:07:13] Steve: whoa I think drummers are cool to write songs with because I just on my last record the record was called stardust and satellites and it was Produced by oliver wood and john o'ricks from the wood brothers and john o'ricks is the drummer But he also plays keyboards a

[01:07:28] Michaela: Mm hmm. Yeah, he's insane. Super talented. Like, In the best way.

[01:07:31] Aaron: And an amazing dancer. It's just like, it's wild. In

[01:07:34] Steve: yeah salsa dancer I was leaving the studio and my record was done, and I love talking to drummers, because I go, Can you give me a drum beat?

I'm going to go home and write something tonight. I love thinking out of the box. So he goes, Yeah. I took out my iPhone and gave me this drum beat. And I went home and I ended up writing the song Canna Pop, which ended up being the single on my record. We had the record done and I came in the next day, because we were mixing the record.

I go, Hey, here's what I wrote to your drum beat. And he was like dude, this has got to go on the record and it was just what the record needed And I gave him a co write on the song because I would have never written the song without that beat

I gave him a percentage of the song like a half a hmm. Mm I gave him a percentage of the song

Do you do co writes Michaela?

[01:08:19] Aaron: Yeah. Definitely. We gotta all get together. Come on over here. Yeah. We'll make

[01:08:22] Steve: I want to.

That would be so fun. This

I'm always looking for that new thing.

[01:08:28] Michaela: Yeah. This is our recording studio. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:30] Steve: Is this where you make all your records?

[01:08:32] Michaela: Yeah. Well, Technically, actually, we, my last record that we made in our basement because we hadn't yet built this.

Aaron built this with his dad. It's a separate building from our house, but we're about in 2 weeks to start making my next full length record in here.

[01:08:47] Aaron: Right here.

[01:08:48] Steve:

Wow. Like, Being a co writer is a whole skill, too. There's

[01:08:53] Michaela: my god, yeah. I co wrote a couple songs before moving to Nashville, but that wasn't really a thing. Like, I didn't come up writing with other people. I just my first few records were all just my own writing alone. And then the last couple of records since living in Nashville, it's been kind of like half and half probably, but this last year I've loved co writing more than ever.

I have a whole new, cause I think I used to think that co writing like meant that I couldn't write by myself and that it was somehow like not as prideful to like have a record where I have all these co writes that it somehow was like, Oh no, I need to show like, these are all my songs. I write them by myself and now I'm like, that's it.

dumb viewpoint. Like, I, love co writing. I still love writing by myself, but I love co writing because I really love the experience of Collaborating creatively it's such a different thing to have that exchange with a person and also to lean in To the idea that like I have ideas that I do need help with and it's really nice to have Help from incredibly talented songwriters that also happen to be my friends

[01:10:03] Steve: you said it so beautifully there, because there's things I need help with on songs too, a lot of times, and I, I used to think, no, Picasso wouldn't co paint,

Mm

and my friend was like, well, you're not Picasso, and so, you have to like, learn to seed control. I find that I do better co writing if we start it from a blank slate together,

And I just throw out an idea or you throw out an idea, rather than if they come with a verse and chorus written.

I don't feel I'm as good at taking someone else's already formulated idea and finishing it, but I feel like I'm good at taking my Verse and chorus and bring it to somebody else and then allowing them to add things to it I'm really good at that

[01:10:49] Michaela: I have writer friends that they're very good at that. I'm like, okay, I can't finish this song. I know who to call because they'll come in and they'll be able to help me finish my song. And it's very clear that like, that's what we're doing versus other songs were like, we do really well writing from scratch.

It's all shifting your mindset and knowing what your strength is and being okay that if it's not your strength, that doesn't have to be called a weakness. That is just not your strength.

[01:11:16] Steve: Mm know who AJ Croce is?

Mm hmm. so he lived in San Diego when I was there, and now he's out here in Nashville. We wrote heaps of songs together, and I remember when he first had me come over to his house, I was freaking out. It was like the early 90s, the Rugburns were touring, and he liked some of my songs, and he invited me over, and I was just like, this is Jim Croce's son, and we wrote a song on his dad's guitar, and I remember, I hadn't really co written much, and I remember how he was just like, had no problem saying, you no, not that.

No, I was way too much of a people pleaser and be like, that's great what you just said, and it took me a long time to learn that it doesn't mean they're not going to like you. You don't have to like everything they say, because I always wanted to be liked, you know, a lot of people are like that.

And so I learned a lot from AJ. He was exhaustive in finding the exact rhyme, and it almost was painstaking for me where I'd get bored and be like, that was good enough, if I'm just left to my own, I'm more of a chaos theory writer, and I don't really have a plan. I'm just looking for a weird thing. Rhyming the town of Estonia, and then Estonia, Patagonia, and then Bologna, of Bologna. Like, I like taking words and changing them to fit. And I like it to be more whimsical and quirky, so when I'm on my own, my songs definitely. have a certain thing. But then when I started writing with Jewel, she was like, let's not pulsarize this song.

She made pulsarize like a verb, I guess, for what you would do to a song, meaning somebody is going to die a horrible death, or it's going to be some weird twist. She would make me be more mature. I don't know if mature is the right word, but I would have never had You Were Meant For Me if it weren't for Jewel.

I came up with the whole, I hear the clock, it's 6am, and the guitar part, but I was gonna take it to some really weird places and have some Crazy shit happened and she was like this song's good. Let's just keep it more here And it was like reigning in a wild horse and I just throw because I have a font of ideas I can just keep throwing them out and I have to feel comfortable around the person To do that, and I've learned as I've gotten older to be more comfortable in my own skin, found if I censor myself It's never a good thing.

[01:13:30] Aaron: I find myself doing that and I find it turning into a feedback loop where it gets harder and harder for me to ideate the session and I just get quieter and quieter. Whereas like if I just come in and I'm just like. And it. Just put it out there. Then that becomes a feedback loop and it becomes more comfortable and that happens.

But yeah, I will censor myself all the time and I just shut down more and more until I'm like, let's just call

[01:13:54] Michaela: this thing. Well, Again, it's like the art of detachment. of detaching from like, what you perceive as a failure. If you put an idea on the table for a line, and it's like, no, that's not good, and you just move on, you're like, yeah, because that's how you get to the good ideas, by putting a lot of bad ideas, versus, oh my god, I just, he hated that line, and this is, I'm so bad at this, I'm really bad at this I feel like I go back to that all the time, of just you have to be okay with putting things out there that don't work.

[01:14:19] Steve: Yes a few days ago I was writing that with Andy Frasco and this guy Chris Gilbuta has written all these country hits and Andy Frasco is a good friend of mine and we were writing this song and I went into that session really confident, feeling like I'd been on a roll lately. And then, just when you think you're really good, you get knocked down a peg.

This guy, Chris Golbuta, was like, so fast, with theory. And then putting down and making a demo out of it, too. I was just like, God, I have no skills. I left there getting my ass kicked. And we came up with a good song. Of which I really did collaborate in, but there have been sessions where I went inside myself because people kept turning down my ideas and I felt intimidated and I hadn't felt that way in a long time till I wrote with Chris Goldbuta and I was just like, I gotta write more with this guy it was like when I wrestled, I always loved wrestling people, I was a 98 pounder, but I loved wrestling 135, 142, 156 pounders I always came up with this theory, always wrestle above your weight, because it makes you stronger, and the same with riding right above your weight. And so take those things and get your ass kicked and go, damn, I have a lot to learn.

[01:15:31] Michaela: Yeah. I'm seeing a theme in this conversation, which I think is a good way to try and wrap up with a bow of the benefit of embracing getting your ass kicked.

[01:15:41] Steve: Yeah. that is the theme.

[01:15:44] Aaron: towards it, like run towards getting pinned on the mat.

[01:15:47] Michaela: Oh man, well, we said we don't ever go over time and we don't, but we obviously did with you.

We're at like an hour and a half, so we should probably wrap up.

[01:15:56] Steve: I know I went in to do the Buddy and Jim show on SiriusXM and Buddy called me afterwards and he goes, this is. A two part show, and they did two parts on XM Outlaw Country. He goes, usually we have it down to an hour, but he turned it

Yeah.

thing. Because we had so much fun.

Speaking of writing with good people, Jim Lauderdale. But anyway, this was so much fun. I love you guys, and I really learned a lot. And I'm so glad I did this podcast.

[01:16:24] Aaron: Yeah, we're so glad to have you here, too. Thanks for carving out time in your day to be with us.

[01:16:28] Michaela: All right.

[01:16:28] Aaron: All right,

[01:16:29] Steve: to see you guys.

[01:16:30] Aaron: Yeah, give Sharon our

[01:16:31] Michaela: best. All right.

[01:16:33] Steve: ya.