The Brother Brothers are identical twins who have released 5 records together, as well as touring/collaborating with Courtney Marie Andrews, Lake Street Dive, Big Thief, Sarah Jarosz, Keb Mo and being part of the early incarnations of Hadestown the musical. We chat with them about how authenticity lasts in this industry, the theory that everyone (musician/artist) just needs autonomy and validation, following the momentum, economics, and we share some good old tour horror stories.
The Brother Brothers are identical twins who have released 5 records together, as well as touring/collaborating with Courtney Marie Andrews, Lake Street Dive, Big Thief, Sarah Jarosz, Keb Mo and being part of the early incarnations of Hadestown the musical. We chat with them about how authenticity lasts in this industry, the theory that everyone (musician/artist) just needs autonomy and validation, following the momentum, economics, and we share some good old tour horror stories.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I’m your other host, Michaela Anne, and this is our second year and we're so happy to still be here, and thank you for being here with us.
[00:00:19] Aaron: Yeah, a couple quick things before we jump into today's episode. It's come to our attention that, though a lot of us have to deal with streaming on a Daily basis with our music, not a lot of people understand that podcasts make zero dollars and zero cents from streaming on all platforms combined.
with that, we turn to you guys to ask for a little help in growing our show. The first thing you can do is to subscribe or follow our show on your listening platform of choice. That way it can tell the algorithm that we're worth 45 minutes of your time and maybe put us in front of some new listeners.
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There's a link to that in the show notes below, if you'd like to check it out.
[00:01:16] Michaela: And we really take pride in the fact that we are not music journalists. We are musicians ourselves. So we feel like these conversations are exactly that conversations and not. interviews. We like to say that it's just like sitting around at the dinner table and having an honest, vulnerable, real conversation about what it is to build a lifelong career around your art.
[00:01:39] Aaron: And in that career, there is so much that is outside of our control. And so we like to keep these conversations focused on what is within our control. Our mindsets, our habits, our routines. And we distill that down to the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And today we got to ask that question of our longtime friends, David and Adam Moss. They are twin brothers in an aptly titled band. Brother brothers.
[00:02:06] Michaela: Yeah. And the brother brothers, They were in some of the early iterations of N Ace Mitchell's, Hades town. adam is a side fiddle player for Levi Turner currently, but they have toured as a group supporting Lake Street Dive, Sarah Drozd, Keb Moe, Big Thief, Courtney Marie Andrews. They've been doing this a very long time and this conversation uh, I realized we didn't actually talk that much about what we do to sustain.
[00:02:30] Aaron: Not at all. We touched it at the top and it was like, what do you mean? And then kept going. But we did share some horror stories of the road and the early days in Very strange places that we've slept.
[00:02:42] Michaela: And it continuously gets back to why we continue to do this. Taking realistic, honest evaluations of our careers and how different that is for each of us.
What the barometer is for how we say if this is working or not and um, what the motivation is.
[00:03:00] Aaron: Yeah. I would say that this is one of the more kind of business, heavy. Conversations that we've had focusing on honestly the income and the financial stress of this business But in our mindsets to that david makes a really great point that the financial success of a song Has nothing to do with the quality of the song we take a minute to kind of touch on that as well him being the main songwriter in the band and his feelings of having to choose a single and what's going to resonate with people versus being like, no, this other one's the best song on the record.
It's a really, really fun conversation with some old friends just on a technical note, David and Adam were on tour while we had this conversation, in a green room.
And so the first 10 minutes or so of the episode, will sound a little bit different, but we sort it all out and the majority of it is smooth sailing. So stick with us. And without further ado, here's our conversation with the brother brothers.
[00:03:48] Michaela: guys. How are you?
We're okay. we had a day off yesterday. We were in West Virginia visiting some friends. we went climbing and
[00:03:55] Brother Brothers: kind of
went hard, to be honest. Yeah. We're tired. Tired? So you're in the middle of a tour, right?
yeah. Mm hmm.
[00:04:02] Michaela: So like on top of, us being close friends and having a history, you guys had already been on our list of people to have just because yes, the brother thing, but you guys each had careers prior to this.
[00:04:15] Brother Brothers: Yeah.
[00:04:16] Aaron: doing different things for years, you know You guys were part of one of the original incarnations of hadestown, right? And you know, and now you're doing this like almost exclusively. I know you guys still dabble in other things But
[00:04:28] Michaela: i'm just got a kind of big gig right now, right?
[00:04:31] Brother Brothers: I'm on tour all year, actually.
[00:04:33] Michaela: Yucky
[00:04:35] Aaron: But yeah, so for all of those reasons You guys have been on our list as a guest for a long time. it's nice finally get you guys here. Thank you for squeezing into the day
[00:04:45] Michaela: where are you guys at right now? How do you feel? I know Adam you just said you're on tour constantly right now with the brother brothers and then you have another side gig as a Fiddle player and David you just got married Congratulations.
[00:04:58] Brother Brothers: Thank you
I actually woke up this morning and I looked into the mirror and I said to myself i'm so tired
Wow,
[00:05:06] Aaron: Like out loud.
[00:05:07] Brother Brothers: I clocked today. I said it out loud
[00:05:09] Aaron: So obviously it's not the first time, you felt that way on tour do you just kind of just keep running and hope it like digests in or there's things that you'd like to do?
[00:05:19] Brother Brothers: rolling.
[00:05:20] Aaron: Yeah, that helps
[00:05:21] Brother Brothers: all just dollar signs just chasing them
[00:05:24] Aaron: No, but for real like What do you do to stay fresh or to like reset? I you said you went climbing yesterday and all of that
[00:05:30] Brother Brothers: yeah, i'm like trying to just find any moment where I can can motivate to do anything that's healthy for myself. I get so much pleasure and enjoyment out of it. And it's so hard to find and to do that. It doesn't happen all the time. Like for any time that I can do anything. That's equal self care. I'm very proud of myself. and then like reminding myself when I am on stage. This is what this is about, and this is why I do the other stuff. That's the only method, but I'm, I'm struggling right now. let's talk about David's wedding. Cause you asked that, and I walked all over
it.
[00:06:03] Michaela: congratulations, David. I'm tired. well, Yeah, it's like squeezing in. a huge life moment, not squeezing it in, but like, it's amongst, all of the work of touring. And, And first of all, we should also establish that your wife's name is Michaela Mann.
[00:06:19] Brother Brothers: yeah, totally. The amount of times I've almost texted you.
Hehehehehe.
[00:06:25] Michaela: I'll never forget being at Skinny Dennis and you came in one night and you were like, I'm dating a girl named Michaela Mann. I was like, what? Amazing.
[00:06:35] Brother Brothers: yeah, I got married and it was really funny because we were on tour and then right after we got home from tour, it was like, okay, let's, throw a wedding, And it was the amount of similarities That were there for like throwing a show, Was like, this is kind of freaky. Cause I was also like, I was in charge of booking the band, And talking to the sound person, Like the sound is something that I know From just playing weddings and whatnot, I know how badly that can go, so I was just talking to him all the time, making sure that everything was going to be cool. like making sure all the musicians were taken care of. And all the little things that can go wrong at a wedding. I was like, wow, this is, I'm basically just throwing a show. And then when we got there, it also felt very similar.
once it was going, it was like, I was able to really enjoy it. So that was cool.
[00:07:24] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:07:25] Brother Brothers: But it went off without a hitch and it was so much fun and it was beautiful. It wasn't a cloud in the sky. It was amazing.
[00:07:31] Aaron: congratulations. Where did you guys get married?
[00:07:34] Brother Brothers: In Texas. In the hill country. Yeah, it was great.
Incredible.
[00:07:37] Aaron: you said you were on tour, did you go back on tour after you got married?
[00:07:41] Brother Brothers: We had about a week and a half off, and then, back to tour.
[00:07:45] Aaron: nice. Yeah, we. Had like three days after our wedding. We got married in Pennsylvania. Adam, you were there. barely. You just barely made it.
[00:07:52] Michaela: Yeah, we can share that. Adam played, while I walked down the aisle, right? And Adam missed the rehearsal.
[00:07:59] Brother Brothers: Oh my goodness. I was flying in from Europe, my first European trip,
[00:08:02] Aaron: Oh, I don't remember that. Yeah, super jet lagged.
[00:08:04] Brother Brothers: jet lagged.
[00:08:05] Michaela: I just remember you guys, you and Ellie, like not leaving Brooklyn with enough time but it, it was beautiful. It was, you did great and we appreciate you.
[00:08:15] Brother Brothers: really count on this guy
[00:08:16] Aaron: yeah, but with,
[00:08:18] Brother Brothers: squeeze it in,
[00:08:19] Aaron: you know,
yeah, so after our wedding, with our phenomenal work life balance, we had two days to get to Nashville to get down for AmericanaFest because it was really important for us to leave our wedding. To play to about 40 people at the basement for 150. That is not
[00:08:40] Michaela: true.
That is not true. it was at the station and there were definitely more than people there. But also, this is a good, this is a good point that it was the first time I got Americana Fest. So it felt like such a, oh my god, I got asked to play Americana Fest and like, last minute, and so like, of course we have to not go on a honeymoon and get back to Americana Fest.
And an interesting point, because has that shifted for you guys? The things that you may have elevated in the past and prioritized over personal life events and your personal life?
[00:09:14] Brother Brothers: I think part of being a musician is understanding that for example, you don't want to be on a honeymoon wishing that you were somewhere else and you can have a honeymoon at a different time and I think There's a lot of people that don't appreciate that about life, maybe, sometimes.
You know, it's like, oh, this is the way it's supposed to be done, and so this is the way I'm going to do it, even though it might not be the proper way to make it happen. And I, speaking of Anais Mitchell in Hadestown, I remember a very interesting moment riding with her. This was probably, God, 2012 or something like that.
We were just on one of the long drives, and I think it was just me and her in the car, and we were talking about something, and she Is maybe one of the harder working musicians I've ever met and is blessed with a lot of opportunities and always said yes, and It made her admirable because she was so hard working but she said that the thing that she regrets most is the amount of birthdays and weddings and whatever she Skipped just to like play on a stage in a pizza restaurant, you know and like Oh man, I really should have gone to that wedding, but who knows you don't want to miss out but also you want to make sure it's figuring out what your values are I think is a very important part of Being an on the road musician,
[00:10:26] Michaela: Yeah, has that evolved for you guys since you're now, not 25 anymore. And also, you guys ever differ in your feelings about what should be the priority as brothers and bandmates?
[00:10:40] Brother Brothers: yeah, it's shifting right now, but think the way that the pandemic has affected the way that the two of us view the music business and tour, and I was saying, think that we're unique I think there's a lot of musicians that I know and a lot of musicians that are working out there that record and they, you know, bartend or they do other things to try to supplement their situation and because they're constantly creating, David and I tour.
That's what we like to do. that's kind of the only dragon we've been chasing is get better at music so more people ask us to play so that we can go on the road. Write more songs so that I can book gigs so that I can go on the road. Like, That's always been our vehicle. And, since the pandemic happened, I thought things would shift a little differently, or maybe they'd go back, and I was just waiting.
And now I'm like, Oh shit this is never going back. Tick tock and Facebook and Instagram one, they won hard. And so if you don't have that social media thing, or you don't have that, what are you going on the road for it? It's way too expensive Try to make it that way. I say make it, I mean make a living. Also, that concept is shifting too. But, if we don't have that, if we don't have the guarantee that the shows are going to sell out, it's not worth it to anybody to go out there.
[00:11:51] Aaron: You guys both left the city during the pandemic, correct?
[00:11:54] Brother Brothers: Yes.
[00:11:54] Aaron: there was like big changes living in a camper for a while, picking up surfing, all of these,
[00:11:59] Brother Brothers: Yeah.
[00:12:00] Aaron: how much of that for each of you, if you guys want to talk about like new activities, new habits, broader horizons, all of that. And whether that continued, or if that's fallen away now that, album cycles are back and tours are back.
[00:12:12] Michaela: if that your relationship to touring as well.
[00:12:16] Brother Brothers: It's interesting that me as a touring musician couldn't go on the road and Me and Mikayla found the only way to go on the road, which is in a camper, and we did that. But it was also, you know, a monetary thing, because we, got stimulus and bought a camper, and we were like we're not going to give it to our landlord, and just like sit here, and just let it, like we're going to do something useful with it, and that was the most useful thing we could think of, We really discovered like cooking and, spending quality time, is the thing. I think a lot of people discovered what that felt like. And it was like an adventure to just not have anything to do. And so that's the biggest thing. And I think I'm honestly chasing that a little bit, the, Traveling and going and seeing things.
But it's really the idea of not really having anything that you have to do.
And that's what I discovered over the pandemic.
[00:13:07] Michaela: shifted the feeling or the justification for how hard touring can be the financial stress of it and all that stuff, if you're kind of attention and energy is now awaken to it's actually really awesome to travel.
Not for shows I feel like that was a big shift for me that I was like my whole life was about Traveling for shows and then you tack on some fun travel on it But everything's driven by shows and then we didn't do what you guys did as long But we did two weeks of a road trip and mountain biking and we went to a different place every night So we were like, oh we went on tour but with no shows
But the freedom of like getting to see beautiful landscapes and move your body because we were hiking and biking.
I still struggle with it, that I'm like, I would endure so much more hardship in the past. To be able to tour and to be able to what I thought I was doing which was building on tour And now I feel like I don't believe in it the same way Which is what I think I'm hearing from you Adam of like oh you go ground it out and you DIY you build the grassroots and now it kind of feels like is that possible or is it all through our phones?
[00:14:19] Brother Brothers: I think that there used to be an answer that was yes. And it was slow and it was steady. And I think. That slow and steady growth can't happen the same way because the world around it has become so expensive and so unsustainable toward a touring lifestyle and toward, local press and local ideas and, hitting small areas and having them expand.
The things that have changed have actually that idea. And then on top of that, there's a certain naivete That I feel like in my pre pandemic self, I was rolling around with that made that possible and it made it fun and as we're talking, I keep wanting bring up I heard this interview by, think his name is Sam Bankman freed the dude who's, got in trouble and then it's fine.
The chat, dbt guy.
[00:15:05] Aaron: I know who you're talking. I don't think it's Sam Brinkman Fried. I think he's, think that
[00:15:08] Brother Brothers: He's in jail.
[00:15:09] Aaron: guy. Yeah.
[00:15:10] Brother Brothers: whoever that was, and forgive, you can do your research, you're doing the podcast, you can put it in the notes. He said this very amazing thing that, struck me so hard and I think about it every day as I'm like struggling through my life and, he basically said anybody who's doing a thing and not that you're not working hard enough.
If you're doing something and it has momentum forward, you can work every day. You can work all day, every day. and it's fulfilling and you have ultimate energy for it because it gives you energy to have forward momentum because it's working and the hamster wheel is actually rolling somewhere.
if your thing isn't working, no amount of work that you put into it is going to make it work better. Like he was like, if it's not working, scrap it, throw it out, start on something and see if that one has momentum. And because If you want to work hard, work hard on something that actually moves forward or let it go.
it hit me so hard because I feel like David and I, you know, like, we have a great product. I really believe in our music and I really believe in, the music that we're putting out into the world and the energy that we're putting out. But if it doesn't have momentum for whatever reason that it doesn't, then What's the point of doing this?
And what's the point of going on the road and doing it? Like we can still make this music. We can still be brothers. We can still create this thing that we're creating and we don't have to put ourselves through the rigor and difficulty and the insustainability of going out on the road, unless it means something.
that's the kind of the arrival that we're coming to right now is we're never going to break up. We're always gonna be making music together and creating this thing. But we don't have to go out on the road and do this thing. nobody has to anymore.
[00:16:45] Aaron: What emotions do you guys feel when you say that? Is it sadness? Is it like Relief to say like we don't have to be touring. We're doing this by choice yeah,
[00:16:56] Brother Brothers: There's a certain entitlement that I didn't realize that I had. And I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for Dave. I've actually never said this to him, but there's a certain entitlement that like, I just kind of assumed that if you went out on the road and you played your music and you got along with your bandmates and just kept doing it and your music was good enough, which I believe it is, then I was entitled to have a successful career and be able to be a successful musician that could pay my bills and do all that thing.
I didn't realize that that was an entitlement. Until very recently as the world has changed. There's a lot of awakenings going on, hopefully with a lot of people, but definitely with this white guy, these last four years, been a lot of awakenings. say it on a completely separate note that one of the things I love about traveling so much is, Going from town to town and we're in Pittsburgh right now, and I used to have friends in Pittsburgh, but they moved away But normally I'd be like, I'm going to Pittsburgh.
I'm gonna go see Benny. This is gonna be awesome or oh, we have it. We had a day off in West Virginia
we went climbing with some great friends yesterday and it was so fun and we like cook food over a fire and they're building this beautiful place and and it was just like so magical and we're going to be in Chicago. We're going to see some great friends. We're going to see Chicago.
And part of what I love about traveling is, you're never a tourist. every once in a while you're a tourist, but so much you roll up to a town and there's always a local There's never a wall up and you're like, Oh, where's the coffee spot?
I've got the night off, where should I go see music tonight? Where should I, what should I do? And it's always so special. And then you have these experiences where you might be in Indianapolis and somebody invites you over to a house party and you have like a whole group of friends and full shared memory.
And that's what I love most about traveling. So I'm, I'm on a much different tip than Adam is Granted, it is becoming a harder and harder way to make a living. And as you get older, you kind of need to make a living. So it's not as much, you don't derive as much pleasure. I think, I think we're both finding that we're trying to figure out ways to, increase our income when we're home.
But, that's my answer to that
[00:18:57] Michaela: You know, like what you said, David, about like the experience of it is what you're really focused on. But obviously you have to also consider the realities of your financial stability, all this stuff. And Adam might, in this context, sound a little more focused on like, is this working? But what is our definition of, of working? we had Joe Pug on here and He mentioned something about like if he played a show to 30 people like he would never go back to that market because that's like below his financial standards and like what he's able to do at this point and I was like There's a lot of places I'd be thrilled to sell 30 tickets in you know Some people who are used to selling out like if Casey Musgraves all of a sudden was selling only a hundred tickets she'd be like I'm an epic failure, but some of us would be stoked and we would know how to build a life by Only selling a hundred tickets in markets So we all have our own barometers of what feels like this is worth continuing if it's working or not so do you guys talk about that?
[00:19:56] Brother Brothers: Totally.
Yeah, I think, as long as we're not plateauing right before the pandemic, we were really feeling like we were getting somewhere every show was a little bit better. during the pandemic, these past four years, just been like a.
Man, it's gotta be patient. Wait and see. And now I feel like we're at a point where, we can go just about anywhere in the country and have a similar amount of people if it's a bad show and have a similar amount of people if it's a good show and it feels like it's getting somewhere.
But also, there's just so many shows where we're just like, wow, we really shouldn't have gone to that town, it's almost as if I'm still at a point where I'm like, Man, I'd like to just keep hitting it, and I feel like there's something happening, but also, is it a, good way to figure out if something's happening, just by hitting the road and missing out on home?
it's a big
question.
[00:20:42] Aaron: and I
[00:20:42] Brother Brothers: ultimate barometer, too.
[00:20:43] Aaron: I was just gonna say that, there's no better way of knowing than by putting your feet on the ground in the town.
[00:20:48] Michaela: And also determining then like, I value being at home more than spending a month on the road, so maybe that means we're gonna only go to half the towns that we went to and we're gonna focus on these fewer markets and be out for shorter periods of time. I think about that stuff a lot, this pressure to like, build in so many different markets and be on tour for months on end.
Or you could focus on a handful of places obviously you have to find the right team that supports that, endeavor, but yeah, everybody's priorities shift. I used to love to be on tour all the time and now I'm like, it stresses me out to go away for a few days because I genuinely miss Aaron and our child who's watching TV in the vocal booth over there.
[00:21:33] Brother Brothers: Yeah, that changes things.
[00:21:34] Michaela: Yeah, definitely.
[00:21:36] Aaron: I wanted to point out, we've been talking about the obvious difficulties of being on the road, the, pre pandemic versus post pandemic and how it's difficult. And, I think it's great that like you guys are seeing similar numbers than you were before and like feeling that excitement.
I want to
[00:21:50] Brother Brothers: we're seeing better numbers, which a little deceiving.
[00:21:53] Aaron: Okay. Even better. So yeah, you guys are seeing better numbers than you were before. And. At a time when I notice a lot of people are stripping back and doing more things solo or duo Like you guys are out there with a full band now, right? So I would assume two other people or more than that
[00:22:07] Brother Brothers: Two. Yeah, drummer and bass player.
[00:22:09] Aaron: yeah, how has that been?
[00:22:11] Brother Brothers: It's been, we figured out a way to make it work. We couldn't add another person. If you add one more person, it's a whole other hotel room. It's a different kind of vehicle. Like, they're stuffed in a van right now. They're not going to want to do this for another three years with us. It's not exactly sustainable.
But nothing about this touring life is exactly sustainable. It has to have momentum forward and it has to grow.
Yeah, and they're, they're stoked. And we, we have a lot of fun. And, we take as good as. Of care of them as we can, there's a lot of musicians that give some creature comforts and take the band out and maybe pay them a little less than we would, but we make sure to, this is the deal and we tell them everything when we go and you're going to make this much money and and you're going to share hotel rooms and every once in a while there's going to be an air mattress, you know, just cause that's why we hired 23 year olds.
[00:23:00] Aaron: I mean, There's something to be said about that.
[00:23:03] Brother Brothers: they're stoked. They're amazing musicians and we're meeting all their friends and all their friends are amazing and, and it's cool. And it's, we're not pulling the wool over anybody's eyes and it's like, personally, I'd much rather sleep on an air mattress to make a little bit extra money, so we're kind of coming at it from that perspective, but but we're making it work and it's.
cool.
[00:23:21] Aaron: places that I slept when I was like 23, 24, 25, 26, 27. Oh my God. Like in my twenties, like . Yeah. was one place I slept. I slept in a rug, rolled myself up in a rug cause there was no blankets or anything else.
And I was like well, this will keep me warm. And it, I had rug burns everywhere.
[00:23:36] Brother Brothers: Wow.
[00:23:37] Aaron: I mean,
[00:23:37] Michaela: Adam, do you remember the hotel when you and I went on tour? You played fiddle for me and we opened for Layla McCalla and we went into a day's inn and we were sharing rooms the whole time. And I remember there was cigarette ash on the bedsheets, like on the pillow.
[00:23:53] Brother Brothers: Cigarette holes.
[00:23:54] Michaela: it. Yeah. I remember that. No, like fresh ash, like someone had been like smoking in there and just flicked their cigarette butt and I was like, oh, and it was super late and I was like, we have to go change rooms. And I remember Adam, you went, it's fine. I'll sleep in it because you were so tired.
You were like, I don't want to go back because it was like one of those motel situations. You were like,
[00:24:14] Aaron: you're like,
[00:24:15] Michaela: I don't want to go back to the lobby and unpack, pack our stuff. But like, oh, just I'll sleep in it. It's fine.
[00:24:20] Aaron: Man, I can like kind of feel like the sticky wetness of the carpet in those
[00:24:25] Brother Brothers: and the room, the next room wasn't gonna be much better. I remember very well, very early on, Adam was in a bluegrass band and I went to go ride in the van with them for a couple days, cause we used to party like that. And we were in, Tucson, Arizona, and they didn't have a place to stay, and they said from the stage, does anybody have a place to put us up tonight?
And these two college kids were like, we have a place for you to come stay. Here's the address. We roll up after the show, like at midnight, and thus commences one of the craziest house parties I've ever witnessed. And this is the house that we were staying in, and there was two couches, and that's it for like six or seven people. and the floor looked like it hadn't been cleaned in, five years. And it was insane. And I remember sleeping upright on the couch next to somebody else. I don't know where everybody slept, but it was wild.
[00:25:15] Aaron: That's almost verbatim, my exact experience on one of my worst tour sleeping experiences, which was right here in Chattanooga. We played JJ's Bohemia, which I don't think exists anymore. But you guys ever play that place?
[00:25:28] Brother Brothers: No.
[00:25:29] Aaron: It was fun. It was, I think it was downtown, kind of crusty place.
Cool.
[00:25:33] Brother Brothers: I've heard of it for
[00:25:34] Aaron: Yeah. Like tons of bands played. We were, it's when we lived in New York and it wasn't with McKayla was with the woes and we had set it up ahead of time. This wasn't like a call out from stage. We had talked to the opening band. We're like, Hey, we need a place to crash.
Like we got you. Don't worry. And so like, after the show, they're like, we're going to take you to our favorite bar in town. We're like, Oh man, we're so tired. I think we came from like Chicago that day or something. Oh man, we're tired. We just like want to go back and chill.
And they're like, cool, no problem. Here's our address. We'll see you at the house. We're like, cool. And we show up and everybody that was at the show was at their house. we pulled into like before we even turned off the van, bass player was just like, I'm sleeping in the van.
like called it immediately, you know? and so we're like hanging out for a little bit and I'm like, Oh, I got to find a place to sleep. And so I'm going like room to room and like the best place I could find was this room that like had a couple of couches just covered in dirty clothes. there was like a big bucket, like full of cigarette butts there was like a litter box on the other side.
And I just kind of like made some room on the floor and I had a sleeping bag. Got my sleeping bag out fell asleep and I woke up I don't know like an hour later two hours later to like people going at it on the couch Right next to me and I was just like what Like what am I doing having
[00:26:39] Michaela: sex?
[00:26:40] Aaron: Yeah Thank you for the
[00:26:41] Brother Brothers: said that, We got
[00:26:42] Aaron: the translation Okay, why do we do this gross that was one of the
last tours that band ever did For sure. I think we got back to New York and we're like, cool. We each made like 150 bucks after like
[00:26:53] Brother Brothers: Yeah. You know what, though? Here's the thing. I'll tell you why we do this. Because you have complete ownership of every one of your decisions, and nobody will hold it against you. And none of us would survive in a workplace where we have a boss breathing down our neck, telling us what we did wrong. And any musician that I know a boss like that, like a band leader or a If somebody on the road that doesn't treat them with their own anonymity and respect autonomy, autonomy, thank you.
Then they're gone. Because that's the only thing we care about is our own autonomy and validation. I got a new theory. Autonomy and validation. That's the only thing that any human needs in their life. And some people do better without it. Musicians are the privileged few who have grown up with the privilege of being able to think that they get to walk through this world being validated all the time, And to have autonomy all the time.
And the second that that's taken away from them, they freak out. So as long as you have those two things
you don't even need a place to stay Yeah,
[00:27:51] Michaela: really, in order to do this, you have to just value experiences and adventure as well, because like, it's so fun to recount these horror stories being so so uncomfortable and so exhausted and so filthy, but you're just like, but remember when we did that?
It was thinking back on the tour that you and I did together, Adam like, I still remember that sunset, that insane sunset that we saw driving into Philly. Do you remember that? I remember fighting with Tin Angel to pay me 25 and remember and
[00:28:20] Brother Brothers: the booking agent who didn't answer you
[00:28:22] Speaker 57: yeah,
[00:28:22] Michaela: just like
so
[00:28:23] Brother Brothers: now our booking agent?
[00:28:25] Michaela: Oh God.
[00:28:29] Brother Brothers: worry, he won't listen to it. unless one of his friends tells him we talked about it Although we haven't named any names, so.
[00:28:34] Aaron: won't put it in the show notes. Oh my
[00:28:35] Michaela: God. We have like so many references. Terrible booking agents on this podcast. I want to
[00:28:41] Aaron: say to second your theory, Adam, on autonomy and validation and to call it back to what you were saying, David, about just being upfront with the two people that you hired for this tour.
Obviously you guys aren't getting rich on this tour. So you were very upfront with like, this is what you're going to get paid. This is what the sleeping is going to be like, by being very clear and upfront about it, you're honoring their autonomy and you're validating
[00:29:02] Brother Brothers: That's right. And I feel like with you guys, last time we hung out, we talked about how amazing it would be if we could just get everybody in the world to just open up their books. And be like, oh yeah, I have a grocery store, and this is how much money I actually make. This is how much I pay everybody.
This is how much I make and I take home at the end of the day. This is how much all my stuff costs. just to know that everybody's freaking out the same and be like, Oh, that person isn't freaking out. Why? And being able to just look at their life and be like, Oh, that must be really nice.
that's the key. They don't necessarily make a lot of money, but they live frugally and they, have this thing that they like to do and it makes them happy. And so they're happy, some people are chasing a car, you know, they just want to like own a Mercedes and they're doing everything to have that Mercedes and it's driving them insane.
[00:29:58] Aaron: this applies to a lot of different scenarios, but just to keep it in our career and our industry, I personally hear from a lot of People that have a lot of jealousy because they'll look at friends or peers that have a bus, they have a monitor guy, they have, you know, front of house, they have all of that and they're like, they're doing really well.
Look at all they have. They might not be the only thing that you can tell for sure without seeing their books is that they're spending a lot of money.
[00:30:23] Brother Brothers: That's why I call Michaela. Michaela's got the inside scoop and I'm like, is this person really doing well? And she's like, I just had dinner with her girl. Like, thank God.
[00:30:33] Michaela: Cause I say all the time, like I want to know what people are doing. And so I ask also I have, and I won't name names on this video. Podcast but like I have other friends that we share our contracts with each other because we're just like this is information we need to know we've been told that this is like not proper etiquette or polite to share but it's no actually we gain empowerment when we know and I feel like we've done this Adam where we've been like sharing what we're getting paid at festivals and there's like a fear of like If I share, and then if I find out, I'm going to discover that I'm getting paid less, and am I getting paid less because they think I don't have as much of appeal, my name is the lowest font there's all this like self judgment that we put and fear of judgment of others.
So then we keep all this information to ourselves. But that only serves. People who are holding the money. It doesn't serve us as artists.
[00:31:31] Brother Brothers: we signed a record deal that we were, Less than pleased with and it kind of started day one we put pen to paper Next day, we had a phone call and both of us were like, shit that's what this is there's no like oh you have ten days to back out or You're about to sign a record contract.
Here's what you need to know.
Here's how they're going to try to screw you. Yeah,
here's how they're going to hold everything over you. And it's the smallest little things, but it's, they really add up. And you're like, oh, if I would have known that this seven year period didn't start till after our third record, I would have approached this a lot differently.
I think the other thing that we didn't realize and I think a lot of people don't realize is like, that contract is meaningless because unless you're willing to go to court, which you're not, nobody's willing to go to court over this.
Unless you're getting screwed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars, you're not willing to go to court and so therefore, whoever you sign this contract with has legal power over you. the money goes to them and they give it to you. So they just hold on to the money because that's what the contract says.
[00:32:32] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:32:33] Brother Brothers: That's that.
[00:32:33] Michaela: as an artist, especially in today's world, you're literally like trying to track down pennies everywhere from so many different, potential income streams. And you can constantly feel like, is this worth tracking down 5 and like fighting for it? And it's so exhausting.
And yeah, and then the power is not Within our hands and we all just want to be able to make music. So I guarantee you, the majority of us have signed contracts that we've felt like, a big part of this sucks. I'm giving up a lot, but. They're supposedly going to help me, they're going to pay for things that otherwise I'd be taking out a loan, racking up debt on credit cards, you know, you're constantly weighing all of that stuff.
And even if you have a lawyer, you don't really like know the real life ramifications until
[00:33:25] Brother Brothers: Well you just, you don't know the future. You don't know who the asshole is until they're an asshole. and sometimes they're never an asshole to your friend.
Sometimes they hook your friend up. And you're like, well I'm gonna get hooked up too. But you're not working out for them. you never know. You just never know. But, the deck is definitely stacked against the artist. It's the money people that designed this system, and they designed it to benefit themselves. Because, they don't get any of the glory. They don't get any of the glory. All they get is the money, and that's their glory.
And that's why they're all the drunkest at the bar, and all these music conferences, talking about just the dumbest shit that none of us want to talk about, and all they want is for us to like them. they hate us.
[00:34:04] Aaron: cause they have no autonomy, but they still need the validation. ,
[00:34:06] Brother Brothers: Very good. I think you're onto something. It's good.
[00:34:09] Michaela: I feel like one of the challenges of this time, and we're seeing it in the news a lot with Spotify, now. Canceling, like doing payouts for any, tracks or albums that are getting under a certain amount of streams.
The divide between those that are lucky enough to quote unquote, make it to make a living in the music business. And those who are not, I feel like is getting wider. how do you personally and emotionally deal with grappling with that? Especially when you are close friends with people who are some of the luckier ones, playing massive shows, big tours, all that stuff.
[00:34:45] Brother Brothers: Okay, I have a philosophy. This is gonna take a minute. But, I think we forget because history is romanticized. But, before 1920, if you were a musician, you were the dregs of society. You were the most important people in your town, or if you traveled the town, they needed you, but you were a bum. And you were just traveling around, homeless, unfounded, but you were amazing and you were revered, except for when you came to get paid.
But they needed you, for weddings, for entertainment, for plays, they needed you. But it wasn't an industry, you just played music. And for whatever reason, however you fell into it.
[00:35:23] Brother Brothers: it was a living, you know, Stephane Grappelli used to play nine, nine hours a day in a courtyard because this place there was no speakers.
So it was an industry. It was like a job. And then records came out and everybody was like what do we do with that? And all of the rec, all the musicians were 30 years old and they were broke. they didn't know money. They just went from town to town and they sang into this little box and there was some business guy getting rich off of it.
Somebody got wise and then some people got rich, but those are the only people that got rich. Everybody else was still doing that thing.
that. Developed by people with money, but that was a romanticized time. There was like five people, maybe five people a year of all of the musicians that existed, which was many.
There was like five people a year. They got rich. And for some reason, because this is America, they're like, that could be me. And if it's not me, I'm entitled to But everybody was getting no doubt in 1990. And then all of a sudden this Spotify comes out the internet comes out and then there's, that weird time when Metallica sued Spotify.
Can you believe Metallica was right? it was Napster.
Napster, right. and then Spotify came out and then there was this new era where it was like, anybody's game again.
But that was such a short lived time and power always consolidates. Money.
Always consolidate. So to me, it's no surprise that this game is over. That was fun for a little bit. And now the game is older There's a big industry, Spotify and the, and the powers that be have figured out how to manipulate the situation. And then they, throw a bone to somebody on the outside every once in a while,
the interesting thing is, is that, through popularity, they're not, people aren't making money at their shows and they're not making money, real money.
Like buy a home money from their Spotify. They're making money from doing an Apple commercial or, having their theme song featured on a movie or, TV show. That's how they're making real money, through sponsorships. Taylor Swift, I bet she makes money off of her shows, but I've seen the inside of a stadium when one of those shows is going on.
And the amount of people, and buses, and they got those things that Turn the semis so they can turn around. I don't even know how much that thing costs, but that money gets spent. And I think, Taylor Swift is going to make more money on her clothing line than she is on her music.
You know, Zach, Brian makes more money off of t shirts. He makes the same amount of money off of t shirts as he does probably more than ticket sales. don't even know that he has records for sale at his shows, but I know he has many, many different options of clothing.
[00:37:45] Michaela: so we all talk about like, then how are people surviving? we can always share like how we're surviving. I last year went through and kept track of where all my income comes from because I wanted to see like, am I making all my income from teaching?
Cause I was like, am I a music teacher? And do I dabble in music? And no, and I realized, oh, it was like pretty proportional that. My income comes from my teaching and my songwriting coaching, which is very much fed by my fans and people being aware of my music, but then also Show fees, which I make more money when I go out solo and do support tours, because I can sell merch.
we're all like t shirt slingers I'm doing like a half off sale on my website and it's significantly helpful right now because people are buying a ton of stuff. And I was thinking as I was filming. Rolling up all these t shirts to mail. I was like, I simultaneously love, and I'm so grateful for this and also hate this.
I never wanted to be a merchandise seller, but I'm so grateful that I can post on my Instagram and people will buy a bunch of my t shirts and that helps me. Have some income so there's all these other different ways, but Adam you just accept? This is what it is and you don't ever feel like you have to grapple with damn They seem to have really lucked out and it seems to really be working for them and have great momentum
[00:39:06] Brother Brothers: I have a unique window into I'm trying not to expose my boss, but I'll just say this. I'm on tour in a band with Levi Turner. Zach Bryan's people discovered him on TikTok. He's a kid that's from Flow Villa, Georgia. He's 19 years old. He's a recovering alcoholic and he is an incredible songwriter.
I truly think that he is one of the great songwriters in our time. And when I say one of the great songwriters in our time, I mean, I've met a lot of great songwriters and he is one of them. You can only get so good and then you're just different. Nobody writes the same song. So you can't really compare.
But like, he is up there. He's a great songwriter. But this kid has the right story for you. Got signed by this thing and they're pumping money into him. That's lucky. He spoke to a certain thing at the right time in history and it worked out for him for now. Zach, Brian's doing the same thing. He was in the military.
He was writing about his feelings. Those feelings hit with a lot of people and they compounded because everybody has feelings. He got lucky. And then he kept doing the right things. And then his management all did the right things too. They're all doing the right things. that's lucky. And it's always been that way.
Patsy Cline, amazing voice. One of a kind voice. How many one of a kind voices have you not heard about? You'll never know. They just didn't get found, didn't speak at the right time. There's probably a Patti Smith in 1920 that wasn't right because she was Patti Smith in Just, you'll never know. it's always luck.
Nobody gets to be a billionaire twice.
[00:40:33] Aaron: Yeah. Mm hmm. And I would like to also just highlight that like, yes this kid was found, but they're pumping money into him right now. So again, no saying if this kid has the legs to stand on his own right now. Chances are probably not, would venture to guess, Adam, that your paycheck from this tour is coming from Zach Brian, not coming from this kid.
Michaela worked at none
[00:40:51] Brother Brothers: Records, I think, but yeah.
[00:40:55] Aaron: were released. Brothers, right? And you had been there for like a year or so at that point. And correct me if I'm wrong. I'm telling your story, but, there was a joke around the office there before brothers came out that their paychecks were coming from green day.
Because Nonesuch is a subsidiary of Warner and Green Day was selling records and nobody on Nonesuch was really selling enough records to pay their salaries. And then Brothers came out and that changed everything.
[00:41:16] Michaela: it's like when luck meets opportunity, opportunity meets preparation meets
[00:41:22] Brother Brothers: Yeah.
[00:41:22] Michaela: you know, meets
[00:41:23] Brother Brothers: real shit.
[00:41:24] Michaela: Yeah. But it's not just solely one thing, which I think we can sometimes think, Oh, if someone's really good, the cream rises to the top. Well, No, that's actually not how it works. And I think for me working at a record label, one of the things that was really beneficial to see was just how much money does go into. bands, artists, or if even if somebody went viral, like the amount of money that then is poured into it to try and make sure that people hear about it over and over and over again. It takes a lot of money. Music takes a lot of money to make and promote. for people who are listening, they're like, how come it hasn't worked out for me?
And I'm like You know, it might not be that you suck, it might be that you just haven't gotten lucky enough to have the funding to make great videos, to, advertise, to put you in front of the right people. There's a million elements that go into it that create quote unquote success. David, what do you think?
[00:42:20] Brother Brothers: I was just thinking about how zeitgeist is always changing. And, I've seen plenty of friends do really well. the same way that, you know, we got playlisted really well. And I know for a fact that we were, playlisted because there was somebody Spotify that was a huge fan of ours and we were new at the time and it just happened.
And, we did our best to capitalize on it and I don't know how well we've done, but that person doesn't work there anymore and showing, and it's really interesting to, because now like we're addicted to that income stream. It's actually keeping us afloat in a lot of ways and, been talking about the music business a lot. sometimes it's really hard to like, when you attach money to how good a song is. every time that we've had a song be playlisted, it's the first song we released, boom, done. that's a very difficult thing for me because I really care a lot about the songs that I write.
And I really spent a lot of time on them. And then it's like, Oh, that one that, you know, it was just the most upbeat one. And they told us to release that one first. And then that's the one that everybody knows. And I'm like, yeah, but like, I know you came to see that song. Cause that's the one you heard.
But like, what about these other ones? like, I'm just like watching people just glaze over. Cause I'd never heard the song before. And I'm like, no, this is the one, this is the one I want you to hear. It's very interesting to me.
what you said about the, financial draw of a song does not equate the quality of the song. It's so
Yeah, and I think it's a really good example for what the music business is. Cause we're doing publicity campaign right now and they're like, Oh, no, no, no, you don't want to do that one. I'm like That's the best song on the album, or That's the best written song on the album, and they're like, yeah, but it's slow. And it's not even in the, any of the singles that we're putting out and I'm afraid that nobody's going to even notice it,
[00:44:01] Michaela: Yep. I know. Who decided that people don't like slow songs? I love slow songs.
[00:44:06] Brother Brothers: not
[00:44:06] Michaela: I don't get it.
[00:44:07] Brother Brothers: that's another thing about social media that we've been, talking about is like, people don't have patients anymore.
They don't like I listen to albums.
There's no room for subtlety. There's no room for subtlety. I love hitting the road. And I'm like, man, I can't wait to hear, Michaela and put out a new record and I don't just like click on the link like, I'll listen to the singles as they come up, but I definitely take a moment to listen to the entire album because most of the time, hopefully if somebody puts out a whole album, they do it because that's a chapter of their life you know, maybe a year or two of their life that they wrote all those songs in whatever they were feeling at that time, they got the band together.
They. Had the producer, they looked at them all and said, how is this a collection of me and something that I did? And so I want to hear that whole album. And I feel like that's getting lost. the amount of times that I've accidentally, and I say accidentally, cause I do it often, but you know, I listened to a song and it's like, there's like a fill at the beginning and then the first lines something that I'm just like, ah, okay, nevermind.
And I'll just like, next song, and it's not fair, but it's also just where we're at now, you know, there's just so much.
[00:45:11] Aaron: yeah, think there's a lot of us that are there and it's finding a way to, balance two, the hope is that lead single will draw people in and get them excited so that when the record does come out, you listen to the whole thing I'm the same way. I listen to full records, but I can also sympathize with everybody feeling like, you know, music coming out today. There's so much music being released. It's like drinking from a fire hose
[00:45:34] Brother Brothers: We watch a lot of people get big, but I think the one thing that I've seen there's a happiness quotient, there's a success quotient, there's money, there's energy, there's momentum, there's all of those things.
But the only thing that I've seen work for anyone is when they are as truly themselves as they can be, both business wise, music wise, the music that they make, the style that they play in, the words that they say, the story behind the songs. If they can stay true to themselves, they can own it and they can sustain it.
Because if you're not true, or you're not being yourself, then it gets exhausting. Or people see through it. Or it doesn't work for people. You can't fake that kind of thing. And that's, people need that. Maybe it's not your time for success. But at least you're being yourself.
And finding yourself. And being true. And the world something, authentic.
[00:46:29] Aaron: Yeah, I tell that to basically every artist I work with. I'm like, Yes, you can get absolutely rich from one song, but it's luck, and it's lightning striking, and the value in making a record today is shelf life. And if you are honest and you're true to yourself, That it's not gonna age.
It'll be timeless and 20 years from now You'll be able to listen back and be like that's a record. So you said it much more eloquently than I did.
[00:46:50] Michaela: thank you guys so much. I know that you have to go to sound check also I know I've told you guys this personally because we're very good friends, but I wanted to say, on the podcast, because as a woman who had a baby there's all the career stuff about Oh, you don't get called anymore and you don't get whatever opportunities anymore.
You guys called me a week after I gave birth and said, Hey, we're making a record in Nashville. Do you want to come sing?
And that was like such a life giver to me, even though I just birthed life to just feel like, Oh my God, someone's like thinking of me and didn't think, Oh, she's probably busy with her baby. And that was just such an incredible experience that we as a family also will never forget. So thank you for thinking of me and being good people that didn't.
Right off a pregnant lady with a newborn baby.
[00:47:38] Brother Brothers: out really well.
[00:47:39] Michaela: It's beautiful. Yeah.
[00:47:42] Brother Brothers: Working out your A flat.
[00:47:43] Michaela: Yeah. Okay.
[00:47:45] Brother Brothers: Love you
[00:47:45] Aaron: All right, guys. Love you. Bye. Have a great show.