The Wood Brothers are a Grammy-nominated band that have released 12 records on labels such as Blue Note, Southern Ground, Easy Eye Sound, and their own imprint. We have a wide ranging conversation on mental well-being and sustaining a decades-long career, all circling around mindfulness, presence, the illusion of control, and what Chris aptly points out - remembering to remember.
The Wood Brothers are a Grammy-nominated band that have released 12 records on labels such as Blue Note, Southern Ground, Easy Eye Sound, and their own imprint. We have a wide ranging conversation on mental well-being and sustaining a decades-long career, all circling around mindfulness, presence, the illusion of control, and what Chris aptly points out - remembering to remember.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:04] Michaela: I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. If you are a brand new listener Thank you for checking us out.
If you are returning, thank you
[00:00:11] Aaron: for coming back. yeah We know there are thousands of podcasts out there to choose from so the fact that you guys keep coming back and listening is Really humbling to us we have an ask for you However, you heard about this podcast, if you wouldn't mind just paying that forward to somebody else.
We love hearing how this resonates with all of you and how helpful it is. And so whether, you learned about a word of mouth or somebody texted it to you or you saw it on social media, if you could just share it forward in the same way to somebody else, we can spread ideas to more people. And the more listeners, the more guests, the more guests, the more ideas.
And... That's the whole point of this.
[00:00:43] Michaela: Yeah, and we're not your typical music promo podcast We like to talk to artists about the in between times Not their latest record their latest tour But we want to talk about the behind the scenes tools and routines They've learned over the years and found helpful in staying inspired creative and sane while building a career around their
[00:01:02] Aaron: art And with so much that is outside of our control in this business, we wanted to focus on what is within our control.
So we decided to invite some of our friends and some of our favorite artists on to ask them the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity For those watching on YouTube, you'll notice that we're in a different place today. As we mentioned, two episodes ago in our conversation with Katie Pruitt Mikhail and I are currently traveling right now. So we're recording these episodes in different places. And Katie was in Idaho at the time.
She was also traveling. And today's guests, are a first. Not only are they... the first siblings we've had on the show. They are the first people that we've interviewed while on tour. We like to say that we want to talk to people when they haven't been on the road for like six months and the off times and the behind the scenes times.
And they were literally in the middle of the times right now. And those guests today are Oliver and Chris Wood of the Wood Brothers.
[00:01:56] Michaela: we were both really excited to have this conversation. I had the great fortune of touring with the Wood brothers, this last spring and they, and Jono, who is also a part of the Wood brothers and their whole crew are just some of the kindest, most grounded wonderful human beings.
Also not to mention when Aaron and I met 16 plus years ago, Medesky, Martin, and Wood was safe to say one of your.
[00:02:19] Aaron: yeah, they were a big influence on me growing up. I think I first heard them when I was in like eighth grade or something like that very early on, had the fortune of spending a lot of time studying with Billy Martin who played drums in the band when I lived in New York.
And I also studied with Bob Moses, who is a great drummer and improviser and was like a mentor to that entire band. I will safely say I did not fanboy out. We did not talk about Martin Wood
[00:02:42] Michaela: once. No, we didn't talk about them at all. As most of these conversations go, we do our prep and we have a list of questions, and very often we never get to a lot of those questions because the conversation just runs wild as it did.
But if you don't know who the wood brothers are, they are an incredible undefinable. band. They've been around for a long time. They're Grammy nominated, and the conversation today was Really expanding.
[00:03:04] Aaron: Yeah, it's one of those conversations that just flowed the entire time and was really stream of conscious and really present, which is funny because that's been A lot of what we talked about was mindfulness and presence and the illusion of control, both, in life and in art, life imitates art, imitates life, and that whole cycle, and tagline of the day.
remembering to remember. Chris said that and everybody's eyes shot open. I think that's gonna be resonating through our heads all day. And the more we talk about it right now, the less enjoyable the show is gonna be. So we're gonna leave you here and say without further ado, here's our conversation with Chris and Oliver Wood of the Wood Brothers.
[00:03:44] Michaela: So the premise of the podcast is the other 22 hours. So not talking about being on tour, all that stuff,
[00:03:50] Aaron: and funny enough, you guys are our first guests who are actively on the road while we're having this
[00:03:55] Michaela: conversation.
we interviewed someone recently who said they have a rule to never do interviews on tour. How Happy or unhappy. Are you guys right now to be doing an interview on your day off?
[00:04:06] Oliver: Since it's you guys, good. No, it's not that big of a deal. Sometimes, speaking for myself, I feel like sometimes when you're on tour, you're in work mode. So even on a day off?
I would rather have this time that we're spending now at home with my family, which I can't be with them today anyway.
So I might as well knock it out. And things like this are sometimes stimulating good and relaxing, you know, you can sit in your hotel and do it,
[00:04:30] Michaela: yeah, what about you Chris,
[00:04:32] Chris: Yeah, I've given up on naming different days, different things, and having expectations, because it's all work, or it's all play, depending on your attitude, so. it's great. You know how it is a musician and we have to plan our lives So far in advance right because booking agents are trying to book tours And so we're constantly looking at calendars and trying to visualize.
What's the travel gonna be like that day? And what expectations or how's this day gonna work? And when you do that, of course, you inevitably start thinking like oh well, that's looks like a nice day we're booked in this nice city and I love that venue and so you think that's going to be a good day and then you see some other day like, Oh, my God, look at the travel that day.
That's going to be a hard day. So in your head, you have this idea of what's a hard day and what's a good day looks like on paper. But when you actually start experiencing the day itself, it might completely flip the other way around where that great Yeah,
gig in the big city that you like with a great venue for some reason it was just a miserable day and you had Struggled the whole time and then that awful travel day You just had a blast and you downloaded all these amazing podcasts and you came up with a great idea for a new song and you're Like feeling all stimulated.
So it's just you can't predict it's just another way that we're really not in control
You know,
[00:05:49] Aaron: being on the road has really taught me lesson in Attachment, it's okay to have expectations and be like, you're saying, Chris oh this, day we're in this beautiful spot, it's gonna be great. I'm gonna be able to get outside. I'm gonna be able to take a hike and get in nature and reset and then, you know, inevitably something comes up.
Maybe you got to take the van in to get fixed or whatever, you sit and do a podcast interview.
[00:06:09] Chris: you can get surprised in either direction,
[00:06:11] Aaron: Yup. Yeah. And just roll with it.
[00:06:13] Oliver: Yeah. I think about it a lot in terms of this lifestyle is... lacking so much structure, as opposed to a nine to five where you could potentially leave your work at the office and just come home and be home and even when we're off tour, there's so many things that come in like interviews and just decisions to be made so it's really hard for me.
I know some people are better at just turning off electronics and just disappearing for the day and then dealing with stuff later. Thank in some ways it seems to me like it's almost like an old video game like space invaders or I saw somebody playing guitar hero. and it's like just things are coming at you and you shoot them as they're coming at you, and that's kind of what all these things are like.
They're just like you, you look at your phone for a minute and you're like, Oh, there's a few things I got to knock out pow, pow, pow. And then, and then you go off and you do.
[00:07:00] Chris and Oliver: Yeah.
[00:07:01] Michaela: I feel like it's also a lesson in expectations, like Chris was saying, even zooming out for your life or your career, I'm learning. I've always been someone and have been taught by my parents the power of manifestation and visualization and I think that stuff is really important, but at the same time, I'm like, oh, usually my suffering or disappointment comes from this like idea I had in my head and these expectations I thought it was going to be like, and it falls short, even if it's like, You still got the thing.
You still played the festival you always dreamed of. You still, got an accolade But it doesn't feel like you think it was gonna feel when you're someone who spent a lot of time envisioning what that's gonna be like.
[00:07:44] Chris: Anticipatory suffering sometimes is worse than the actual physical suffering of the thing that you were worrying about. It's amazing the power of our minds to, grasp onto things and cycle round and round and spiral, as they say, that kind of mental suffering is worse than maybe some physical suffering.
Within reason, of course. but you spend weeks thinking about that day that you think is going to be bad worrying about something It's obviously really useless
so I think you we learn that the hard way over and over again
[00:08:15] Oliver: Chris and I talk about this a lot, on tour and in the studio and just in terms of creativity, which is, creating music is so much like creating your, life, your day and how, ultimately when you're creating something. I think we always talk about we're not really in control and that's the good news and the bad news, it's the good news because you get to discover your creation, so that the idea is we're not really in control of our days, even if we think we are, it's more like we are not in control, we just have to be ready, we have to show up and deal with it and explore it and let it sort of appear before us and discover it.
Yeah. kind of a something that works for your daily life as well as your creative life.
[00:08:57] Michaela: Has that gotten easier for you guys separately and together over the years of doing this for so long and also doing it in multiple, bands and especially different bands that have different musical approaches. have you gotten more comfortable with that? Lack of control and the excitement of lack of control over the years in life and in music.
[00:09:18] Oliver: No,
[00:09:18] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:09:19] Chris: I mean The more you experience something you build up a relationship with it, and you start recognizing things. so now, when I was younger I didn't recognize spiraling into depression or anxiety. I didn't recognize it for what it was, that it was a choice.
you know, it's more of a choice than we realize those feelings and I think when you're experiencing heavy duty, things like that for the first time emotionally, mental stuff, where you latch on to something you're afraid of or latch on to something that brings you down and spiral with it and we look at constantly, you can't take your eyes an abyss that you've created for yourself, all the what ifs and all the things and horrible that could go wrong and, and then eventually when you do that enough and you get tired of suffering, you sort of realize oh, it's up to me to decide whether to stare into the abyss or.
Just actually pay attention to what's happening right now right here. It was just not so bad at all It's actually fine, and it's all stuff that I can deal with and it's so stupid and simple But we forget that it's an option to just be here now and what do I need to do right now? Oh,
exercise would feel good. Hey a shower. That's gonna make change my day and all these little things that are actual living Instead of spiraling out on, everything it's, it's so simple, but it's, again, something we talked about a lot is the hardest part is to remember to remember to do it, to be present is difficult to remember to do easy to do when you remember That it's an option or you've experienced it enough time that like, Oh, here's an option.
So I recognize the spiraling into the abyss immediately now And I'm like, Oh. There's no reason to put energy into that. I'm going to switch directions in my mind do what I know will
[00:11:02] Oliver: Yeah, we've
[00:11:02] Chris: that.
[00:11:03] Oliver: I feel like we've definitely learned it as humans and as creators we have Seriously have learned a lot from our experiences like Chris said and we've talked about a lot. We've studied you know, all of us are into meditation and mindfulness and Transcendental things and then the understanding of just doing things and how healthy it is, To just work on something regardless of if it's the dishes or if it's your crops or if it's your family or whatever But I think Chris said it exactly.
It's like as wise as we may get, we still have to remember to implement our new tools that we've learned over the years. And if, and there's some days where you just, it's easy. And you're like, Oh, I got this. And I don't have to go down this path of anxiety, or I don't have to think about this right now.
I can be right here. And other days for whatever reason, it's a little harder to do that. And maybe you forget. That you have that.
in you. Remember to remember. That's a good one.
[00:11:58] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:11:58] Chris: amazing how, how music can pull you out of that. like Bob Marley said it so well, the thing about music is when it hits you feel okay. And as a creator, like I've had things where I might be reading an article about the world and it's like, Oh my God, we're just so screwed.
But it somehow tells me something about human beings as a whole, or a predicament as a whole, the thing that we all share. And suddenly it inspires an idea, lyrically or a melody and suddenly all that. that I was spiraling out about turns into a creative thing I think it's enjoyable because it feels like you're taking action against something that feels overwhelming, even though it's not like, Oh, I'm going to save the world with a song, but at least for me personally, in my mental health.
It's a way to turn some sort of suffering into a creative act that is really transformative mentally,
[00:12:54] Oliver: it makes you very present with it.
[00:12:56] Chris: Yeah.
it becomes like a meditation on what is, cause the things that I think interest us are not just personal like, Oh, I had breakup and here's how it hurt my feelings. But what about things that we all share? Being humans on this planet, what are things that everything can relate to and I think a lot of great songs tap into that often you don't even know understand exactly what the song means But everybody for some reason feels something or get something from the songs There's a great mystery there that we're never gonna solve but we're constantly Fascinated by it,
[00:13:28] Michaela: And I think when you know, thinking about, oh, I'm not going to save the world with a song, but. I feel like I always have to think about the little like trickle domino effect of if you are helping yourself by doing this act of creation and then you share it and you put it out into the world, you have no idea what little tentacles it's going to reach to who and who it's going to impact and change and maybe make them feel better and maybe inspire them to do some little difference in their life the ripple effect of all of it.
[00:13:58] Chris: Absolutely,
[00:13:59] Michaela: I try and hold on to that of no, this is really purposeful. And this is a really important and meaningful way to spend your life. Because sometimes I go down a spiral of Oh my god, I need to become a civil rights lawyer or an environmentalist.
[00:14:14] Chris: that's what's weird about, trying to be an instigator of that ripple doing what we do. Is it really takes a lot of vulnerability Because the last thing people want is to be preached to or, I heard this great. I did an interview recently with Conan O'Brien and I can't remember who he was talking about but the guest reminiscing back to a show where Conan had like a musical guest on and it was some young band I think it was like Patton Oswalt or something said Conan I'll never forget in the break you leaned over to me and said I hate this wisdom rock he was basically talking about a A bunch of like really young musicians in their early 20s who are like singing about all this human wisdom that everyone in the world should know about, you know, so he had this term, wisdom rock, I thought was so funny so it's the artistry and songwriting is this mysterious thing of, you really have to be vulnerable and find a way of expressing these things.
That, you know, often are almost self deprecating it's the vulnerability I think that people relate to and that makes a change as opposed to like a strong civil rights lawyer or, someone going out in the world and taking action and protesting against, things for the environment or whatever it may be.
And songwriting change, unless you're like Bob Marley or something, comes from a certain vulnerability.
[00:15:30] Aaron: I also wonder if Bob Marley would have been able to write the songs that he did, had he been thinking, oh, my words are going to be used as like sage advice for the next five decades, if he had that awareness, I don't know if he'd be able to write that.
[00:15:42] Oliver: it,
might not have been as effective and real, because that's the other thing is like if really coming from the heart, you're probably not thinking that far ahead.
[00:15:50] Chris: It's a very good point because, his father was a European, white, German guy. so he never felt like he belonged anywhere. So people say well, he was kind of the perfect person. To sing And talk about how we can all come together, one love, you know, because I think.
he yearned for that so bad.
It's like feeling like an outsider all the time, which is hard to remember because he was so worldly renowned, but he, from everything you hear about, he really felt like an outsider.
[00:16:19] Aaron: Yeah. for me, songwriting is like our guest the other day said it so perfectly, it's like, the sonic expression of emotions. it's this way of being able to be vulnerable and be in touch with what your emotions are with so much clarity that you can say it in a very humble way.
Where you can be speaking in a very personal manner, everybody finds a kernel that resonates with them
and sees themselves in that, the more you think oh, I'm gonna say this because everybody feels this way it just loses its integrity.
It loses its intent to me
[00:16:47] Chris: Yeah.
[00:16:48] Michaela: well, and I think a lot about why I do what I do in life. I've started saying on stage, I've spent my life sharing stories and songs that are from my experience, not because I'm obsessed with myself, but because I think of it as an invitation and that by my being vulnerable, I'm inviting others to connect and to share and response.
And. I feel like that is what the universal experiences and also what inspired us to want to do this podcast is because we felt like more and more, we were having conversations with musicians and artists behind the scene saying, especially because the pandemic was such a turning point of people being like, man.
Yes, I'm grateful to do this for work, and this is what I love to do, but holy shit, this is actually really hard, and am I the only one that this is hard for? so we just wanted to start bringing that to light and help each other in a more public forum of you know your favorite band, like the Wood Brothers?
They also struggle with days where they feel bad about themselves and that They've learned this over and share this wisdom I think you can start to think once you reach a certain level of success or a certain level experience, those things go away. And what you said about Bob Marley of he was so world renowned and famous, it's been said that he still never felt like he fully belonged anywhere.
And that is like such a testament to no amount of outside, Adoration or achievement or acclaim is necessarily going to fill
things that you have
[00:18:15] Oliver: exactly. That's not what does it. no matter how you get, you're still this, human, tender human. tell you.
what, I've Thought about lately is, when you're a young musician and you have these mentors who oftentimes are just older, more experienced musicians that you hang out with and that you play with and partly by example, you learn from them and partly sometimes they actually with intent, take you under their wing and maybe try to help you out and think about that a lot and how you.
important that is, and now as an older musician I'm friendly with a lot of younger musicians who I think have come to me in the same capacity, but I realize that I'm also drawn to them and that I think I learned just as much from them as they learned from me. it's like we, connect because we're doing the same thing.
We still get it. They can see. Maybe some maturity in me that maybe I, have something they don't have yet, which may just be notoriety or a little more money in the bank or something like that. ultimately the more I talk with a mentee or a student of some kind, the more I learn and I learn about myself.
sometimes people will come and say, Oh, can you give me a songwriting lesson? And I'm like, I don't know anything more about it than you do. maybe I've been doing it longer, but I don't feel like a master or like, Oh, now I can rest on my laurels or whatever. It's more like life and art or just constantly learning.
We're never masters of it. We're always, I think we have to be vulnerable, even our heroes. The Tom Pettys and the Dylans and whatever the iconic guys were probably just as tender as we are,
[00:19:54] Michaela: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure, and I think, on that, I do a lot of teaching and songwriting coaching, and I've, what I've learned over the years is that it's not about being the teachers because you are a better songwriter. I've learned that what people are looking for in that is permission. and nurturing a lot of what I do when I'm coaching other songwriters is Hear what they've come up with and say, okay, tell me more and they'll say like I don't think I'm allowed to say this.
I'm like, why not
[00:20:22] Oliver: like a therapist.
[00:20:23] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:20:23] Oliver: a therapist, you know not gonna fix you. They're just gonna give you permission to say what has to be said, you
[00:20:29] Chris: Also, sometimes,
[00:20:31] Michaela: well what oh
[00:20:32] Chris: out fully formed, and sometimes you, I think, you have a feeling, and the first words out of your mouth to express that feeling might be pretty generic, but meditating on that feeling... You will find other ways of putting it that express it, in a more nuanced way, in a more personal way, even in a more abstract way, but I think that's the thing that's so interesting in the songwriting process because I think a young songwriter may be. What they don't realize is they haven't done it enough to understand the process and as simple as when do you stop working on something? Because I know for me, there's a very particular mindset that I can get into, like maybe I'll have an initial spark of an idea and I'm excited about it.
And then instead of the open spontaneous mindset that begets. A new idea, then your mind flips and starts going into a state where you like to figure things out. It's like someone wanting to figure out a problem or figure out a puzzle. And once your mind goes into the puzzle, state of mind where you're trying to figure out this song like it's a puzzle, that's a good time to stop. Yeah
you're like, somewhere in there where you cross this line. where you're not vulnerable and open anymore. You're just enjoying figuring out a puzzle. that's where you can overthink a song, go down rabbit holes that were completely unnecessary, that take you away from the initial thing that made it feel right in the first place.
This is where working with someone else, I get so much help from Oliver, if I'm like, hey, here's this idea, and he can instantly tell me, cause I might be too close to it to really have a perspective, so Oliver can say... Oh that's really good. No, stay with that. Or this other thing, get rid of that.
but your original idea, that's good. Or, someone to help guide you. you don't have someone to help guide you, then the best thing to do is put it away and let time pass and almost forget about it. And then revisit it with a fresh mind so that every time you're working on a song, you're doing it from almost like an improviser's mind.
And reacting to it with fresh ears, like you were someone else and otherwise it gets stale, you know You just work on something and work on something. It can become very stale.
[00:22:43] Aaron: Yeah, it
becomes scientific and you get underneath a microscope. I see it a lot with things that I'm mixing, which can become very scientific and you can really just lose any type of perspective and I'm slowly trying to bend this into my songwriting as well as when I realize that I'm getting too close, move on to maybe it's just a different verse or a different, part of the verse.
Knowing that I can come back to it, and maybe I won't, and if I don't come back to it, is it really a problem anymore? Probably not, because it's not sticking out, but at the
[00:23:10] Chris: and your analogy of the microscope is good And a lot of musicians use that because I think if you do this long enough, we all get familiar with that feeling as you mature then you start to recognize like, oh, I just got the microscope out Put it away and do something else, but as a younger musician, you might not even know you're doing it You're just you got that sort of electron microscope and you're like worried about the stupidest little thing But you can't help it because you're just lost in that feeling like I'm gonna figure this out because it's fun But then it doesn't really help the big picture.
[00:23:42] Oliver: Yeah
it's the illusion of control coming
[00:23:44] Chris and Oliver: hmm. There you go.
[00:23:45] Oliver: know,
Your logical mind, And it's funny because when I was hearing Chris talking about when to stop you know as soon as you get your microscope out I was thinking about how I certainly do that in relationships
as a I don't know what to call myself, but my wife calls me out on it all the time.
You're having a nice interaction with family or with spouse or whatever. And then there comes a point where. I feel like, Oh, I got to fix this. have some solutions here. I'm in control here. Let me tell you how we should do this. and I think it's very similar.
It's like, Oh, I need to learn to not be passive aggressive at this moment because I know I do that, and my wife will say, Hey, you're doing that. Or she'll just get mad at me. Or, my kids will. Read it and just be like roll their eyes or whatever. Yeah, think it's one of those things that goes hand in hand with creativity again It's like would love to learn how to do that as a songwriter better like Recognize when I'm in that Microscope control mode and then step away or that goes for relationships, too It's oh look you're trying to fix something that Nobody asked you for that,
you know, just stop and be vulnerable instead.
[00:24:58] Michaela: Making that choice, I don't know, we've been together for 16 years and so we have grown up together and there's so many things that we've had to learn oh, this natural way of being actually isn't really helpful. And that's why we're arguing all the time.
And maybe when I feel this way, I can make a different decision and do something different besides huff and walk off and not talk. because that's actually not helpful. And it's so weird how like hard it can be to be like, I could actually just stop and say, Hey, I'm feeling this right now.
And talk about it rationally. But I think there's something like, unsexy about that of we could just be like, textbook exchange and like calm. But it's amazing how much when you do get into that practice,
[00:25:39] Chris: what you're describing is just a method to get into the present moment again, because I think what's interesting about all of her saying, it's like, you get in that mode, we're like, I'm going to fix this problem you're envisioning a solution that exists in the future.
That's not happening in the moment. all of us, when we're together, have different ideas about the direction of the moment into the future. And so if we start fixating on that individually, we all drift apart and we don't understand how to get along with each other. Whereas if we can just come back to the moment and like you said, Michaela expressed here's where I'm at right now.
Boom, all of a sudden everyone's on the same page and can explore where to go from there. But having the presence of mind to say that that's huge. But again, it's hard to remember that's an option. Because we're so caught up and spiraling on our here's how the future should be.
And I think, I know in my personal experience with getting in trouble with a spouse or something is that not only am I thinking about a future fix or a solution, but I'm doing it with the best of intentions, because I want everything to be awesome for all of us. And if you get called out on that, it's a very humbling, frustrating moment, because you're like, but don't you understand I'm doing this because I want everything to be awesome for you.
But it doesn't matter. It's still the same problem. But you get pissed off because you're like, man, I'm trying to make everything great, can't fix other people's suffering. You sometimes, oh,
[00:27:04] Aaron: you guys mentioned that you're all into mindfulness and all that. you guys know who Tara Brock is?
[00:27:09] Michaela: I think it's Tara. Sorry,
[00:27:10] Aaron: Tara.
[00:27:11] Oliver: like a, she's like a meditation and mindfulness person. She's on all the apps.
[00:27:16] Aaron: She's on all the ads. And she has a great podcast.
[00:27:19] Oliver: she's great. Yeah.
[00:27:21] Aaron: Yeah, so she said something one time, and this is question that you can ask yourself when you have those, trying to fix it thoughts, and I get stuck in that, whether it's for somebody else, whether it's for myself or whatever, is to sit there and be like, Okay, problem.
What if it's not a problem? And just ask yourself that and it automatically flips your thinking to another outcome in the future.
[00:27:39] Oliver: I like that a lot because I can imagine that applying to so many things. And for me, I think about, if you wake up and you can't sleep and you start thinking about, Oh, I'm worrying about my kids or something. And then, one way to do it, like Chris has been saying, you know, it's like I can remember, Oh, this has nothing to do with right now. I'm just, trying to sleep. can't fix anything. I'm powerless. This but I like,
that idea of what if this isn't a problem? maybe this is a test, or maybe this is a challenge, or maybe this is, Here's the good thing.
I'm going to grow from this or something like that.
[00:28:11] Chris: my version of that in the spirit of what Oliver just said, a challenge, is I challenge myself. Yeah. Yeah. as often as I can remember to do It can you enjoy yourself right now? That's the challenge and it's really interesting what happens when you do that it's not really because when you start to I mean is yeah So like that's the interesting part to me about this challenge is that sometimes in the day, Not much is happening. Everything's basically fine, and you might be thinking about the future and needless stuff and then if you say can you enjoy yourself right now? You know it actually might be pretty easy to access that because you have no crazy distractions and I think when you challenge yourself to do that first, you ask yourself why am I not enjoying myself right now?
And it's very clear immediately. It's just like, Oh, cause I'm not in my body. I'm not standing on my feet and I'm not breathing and my shoulders are tight and it becomes very basic. you start to realize that the path to enjoying is really just being present.
And enjoying being in your body.
It's a very physical thing, and it means that you have to be paying attention to all your physical sensations and stop thinking about all the stupid stuff that you think about all the time, right? So when I say, am I enjoying myself? It's just instantly, it becomes about breath, shoulders, and just being here and observing what's around me in my environment.
And it's that basic. So like, when you're in the middle of some really stressful situation, or an full on argument, if I have the presence to remember, I'll try to do it in those moments too. It's like, hmm, can I enjoy this right now? And it completely changes your physiology, and your openness to the possibilities of what could happen next.
Because you get out of the thing in your head that thinks the outcome should be this or that. But instead, if you're just in the moment, the possibilities become much more interesting and wide open.
[00:30:05] Michaela: Well, I think that goes back to control again, because you're basically going can I control my emotional state, my attitude. And I feel like that's so helpful in personal life and career stuff. my mom had a stroke and she's It has disabilities now and like we're staying with my parents right now and have a very rambunctious two year old who's like, didn't sleep last night.
There's so many things that my head can start being like getting so far outside of the moment and like looking inside being like, Oh my God, how is this life right now? And then if I stop and breathe and be like wait, my mom's still here. I have a beautiful child who's doing what children do. Can I be present and enjoy this moment?
That could shift so much. And same with career stuff how much suffering can come from Oh, I'm not enjoying the show and I would be if it was a better show. if I played a bigger venue or there was a better audience or like. okay well, this is what it is right now.
So how can I enjoy this in this moment?
[00:31:05] Chris: this is the crux of it and I think is a way for people to picture this very clearly when you're trying to change the world. Like in control. You're trying to execute your will out into the world, So you're trying to change things around you in your environment when you are enjoying yourself.
You're simply receiving information about your environment because you're really just using your senses to pay attention to the moment? Enjoyment is a receiving thing. It's not a doing thing,
of course, when we try to be in control and we have all these thoughts and then we try to Force those thoughts into the real world, and change the way other people do things or whatever.
That's an outward thing. We're not receiving information. And it comes down to trust. I think we do this because we don't trust ourselves. To not be in control and that's the crux of, Zen stuff and, people talk about this and all these different kinds of religious disciplines.
But can you only receive the moment through your senses and trust that you'll know what to do next without thinking about it? That's all it comes down to, so when you're feeling that gratitude about oh, My mom's alive and my kids and you're just receiving all that information.
know what to do next It's so obvious
and it's the same thing when we're on stage. It applies to music It's like when I just listen to Jono play a drum beat It tells me what to do. My environment tells me what to do So as long as I just pay attention, nothing to worry about.
If you trust yourself, you will instantly know what to do, what's appropriate,
people don't know how to be spontaneous because They don't trust themselves to act what we call appropriately. So they lock them away in a Zen monastery so they can act spontaneous and do a bunch of crazy, stupid But when you get good at it and you go out into the world, you can be spontaneous and act completely appropriately. No one would even know the difference, but you
[00:32:56] Michaela: yeah. I feel like I learned that what you were just talking about of just like receiving and trusting and I learned that so much on the tour with you guys, I think of that Buffalo show, which I know you guys have played a million shows since March, but Buffalo is a Friday night and it was a club show and.
Daniel, your guy's tour manager, was like, Just heads up this is gonna be a rowdy crowd. And he warned me, because I was out there acoustic solo, playing emotional songs, and he was like, you might have to fight for it tonight. And I was like, Okay. And my younger self would get so thrown by a loud audience.
Especially if I was by myself, I would personalize it. I'd be like, they don't like me. If I was better, I'd be able to quiet them. And I remember I distinctly was like, okay, I'm going to go have fun. It doesn't matter. And that crowd was so crazy. Like even through your guys's set, I remember there were so many drunk people getting thrown out.
There were fights happening and like, it was
[00:33:52] Chris: ha.
[00:33:53] Michaela: Friday night in Buffalo. I had so much fun though, and I remember it was like the loudest crowd I played for. But there were people that were like still giving me back such positivity. And I was like, I'm going to focus on them.
I can't change this. That person's super drunk. They're also interacting with me. This is really distracting, but I'm going to go to a place and I'm going to choose to just have so much fun with this. And it was such a huge. Turning point for me as a performer as well, because my younger self would have been like, I would have scurried off the stage and been like, they hate me.
I'm like, that's not what that was at all. They were like, getting drunk on a Friday night. And I received a lot of information and chose to have a really good time for the setting that I was showing up in that I had no control over.
[00:34:37] Oliver: Yeah.
It is empowering to, feel like you can choose what to focus on. And Chris's thing about can I enjoy this? I think about that a lot now, Chris I want to transfer it to my regular life more, but especially when we play shows where every night's different and there's almost always, there's something that could bug the crap out of you.
we had a show last night and the sound was atrocious. It was just a poorly designed sound system or something and We were all just shocked when we started the show. We just looked at each other like holy crap this is the next two hours for us and like the bass just sound like boo
[00:35:14] Chris: Yeah, there's no way to get out of
[00:35:15] Oliver: you can't run away from it. and there's not you can't change it but I did exactly what Chris said earlier.
It's like okay, no offense, Chris, but I'm not going to focus on the bass like I normally do because it sounds like a horrible,
But I was able remember to remember Chris's thing like, Can I enjoy this right now? It's okay, what else is happening?
We'll look at all these people that are having a great time and, oh, and the high hat sounds great. I can do this. I'll listen to that. I'll look at these. People in the front row are having a great time and, and, you know, after a while it actually was fun, but for the first few songs, you're just like, this sucks.
don't want to be here. it's so empowering to have a tool like that, that if you can remember to implement it, really works, you I imagine the same thing if you're a family dynamic or a whatever, a relationship, it's the same kind of thing. We have that same option,
[00:36:04] Chris: yeah.
it doesn't mean the suffering goes away. It just means it's not controlling you, you're just observing it instead of being completely lost in it. And then it sort of becomes fun. It's like, I'll try this. I'll try this. It becomes playful. like in the first part of the show, Oliver was talking about last night. the exact same way, and I was like trying to playfully problem solve the situation. Like, What if I ask for this in the monitor, And it soon became apparent no, this is one of those nights where that's totally hopeless. There's things bouncing back from the space we're in that are just gonna make it sound crappy no matter what.
Then it's just all about surrender. can you still dance in the chaos? And you can. And you can just dance to the chaos, and make that the soundtrack for your life at the moment and find a way to express it, and I think what was really helping me last night too, is a big part of my philosophy on all this stuff and this really applies to being a musician and performing especially, but you could apply this to all kinds of things, but you don't take credit.
If something great happened on stage, It wasn't you. Don't take credit. If something bad happened, you think you just made a mistake? don't take credit. just part of nature. You're part of the environment that's happening right now. I kept thinking about that last night. I remember my younger self might have got angry at Oh, Jono you weren't in time or we weren't locked up rhythmically perfectly right then.
And, but then I started to realize like, no, no, no. We are in this crazy environment right now where the stage sound sucks. It's nobody's fault. Everybody's musical instincts is a completely natural phenomenon. that's what musical instincts are. I think humans make music because it's completely 100% natural.
We short circuit that naturalness by overthinking it all the time. And so that's what we're talking about. But because we all made these little decisions in the moment that might have sounded to me like we're rhythmically not perfectly lined up. That's because we're just reacting to our environment.
Nobody's to blame. Nobody gets the blame in the same way that nobody gets the credit. And when something great happens and we're grooving our ass off, it's the same thing. Because we're just reacting to our environment and to the musical thing that... When in the unthinking mind is obvious and something good happens and it's like you didn't do that You're just part of this thing That's much bigger than you and that's a much more Joyful place to exist on instead of being the center of attention taking credit for everything Because either you're gonna like, get lost in a big ego, or patting yourself on the back, or you're gonna start beating yourself up for every little mistake that gets made.
that's a very unstable place to live in. So it's better to take zero credit and just be a part of that environment that you're in that's nothing special or different than anybody else.
[00:38:45] Aaron: Absolutely. One of our early guests on this show, Emily Scott Robinson, said something really similar in the way that she phrased it was that she takes everything personally. And, my initial reaction to that is you take bad things personally. Oh, I didn't get this because I'm not good enough.
Or, they didn't take me on this tour because I'm not good enough. But you also take The good things personally. this, publication is writing about me because I'm good and I'm playing these shows because I'm good. And so you're also personalizing all of that.
And it's like, just don't personalize any... of it.
[00:39:12] Chris: It's a rollercoaster
[00:39:13] Michaela: she's learned that she can't, yeah, she can't take it personally. And she's like, when you get a positive response for your work, you think, Oh, it's because I excavated my soul and I did everything right. And I'm so good. And now it's being received well.
And so it's all. Credited to me, and I'm learning, can't do that either,
[00:39:32] Chris: Yeah, that's it. That's a another way to put it. Yep,
[00:39:35] Oliver: yeah.
The illusion of control.
[00:39:37] Michaela: Yeah, one of the reasons we asked specifically for just you guys, and I wanted to acknowledge that Jono is very much a part of the Wood Brothers and we love Jono But I wanted to talk about the brother dynamic. Because you guys are the first family members one of the things we've been starting to explore on this podcast is also relationship stuff within creative lives. So married couples that are working together. In music or business and music.
And I was, reading a bunch of old interviews with you guys. And one of the things I saw was how one of you had mentioned in an interview, like how much you think it benefited that you guys started the Wood Brothers band later in life after you guys had already had separate careers for 15, 20 years, other bands and that.
the quote I read was something that you guys had outgrown your egos a little bit and had also been humbled by the music business and had become more comfortable with the uncertainty of the business and how that's benefited your dynamic. But also do you think that's benefited the trajectory of your career as the Wood Brothers of having that different mindset versus starting out?
In your 20s, trying to have your first step into the music business with a band also as brothers.
[00:40:51] Oliver: The first thing that always comes to my mind that I am grateful for is that Chris and I had a chance to cultivate our own separate identities for 10 plus years, and figure out who we were as people to some degree and as musicians. So we were able to... Grow up independently and find ourselves and find our voices, and I can imagine that would be really hard if you were doing that together from the time you're kids and your your identities are always locked together and it just seems like that would be a lot of pressure and a lot of baggage and be hard to become a mature, adult and work together.
It would be much harder, I think, if we had done that. I'm grateful for that part. And then... As far as how it affects our career, specifically, that I'm not sure, but I think it's more fun, it's not made us more famous or successful, I don't think, I don't know about that.
[00:41:51] Chris: No, that's a good, I think, way to think about it. you never outgrow your ego, but you have a relationship with it. You have a perspective on it. And I think when you're younger, being a young touring musician, a young artist, it's a volatile Time because maybe you haven't learned those tools yet and you are taking everything personally and everything is a roller coaster and your entire self worth might be based on the last show you just did.
if it was a good show, you're feeling great. And if it's a bad show, you're like, I don't deserve to be in this business, and you haven't sort of been doing it long enough to find any kind of equilibrium. And I think when you're young and you're going through all that stuff, You start to become familiar with your personal baggage.
things that you need to overcome. own flavor of dysfunction that we each have, and if Oliver and I would have been together at that time, I think it would have been very confusing to differentiate what's my personal baggage versus what's our baggage, or our family baggage. I think by the time we got together we'd been humbled enough and realized that we have individual things that we...
Try to work on to be happier, better people, you know, but then it was so great to reconnect, with someone who has the same childhood, you had the same parents, and there's so many things that we understand about each other in a deep way because of that, and all the quirks that we have.
As individuals, we know where those quirks came from. like, oh, that's just like dad, that's just like mom, you know, And all the weird dysfunction that is unique to our family, only Oliver and I truly understand that dysfunction, and can appreciate it within each other, and be more forgiving about it with each other.
Because we know the source, and so we don't take credit. We're just a part of the continuum that is this crazy wood family tree,
[00:43:36] Oliver: I love that.
That's absolutely right on.
[00:43:39] Michaela: age and time come up a lot in this podcast, and often more for women, because there's still so much messaging for women of like, you have to be successful before a certain age and you start to age out. But time and time again, I feel like it's shown how valuable Age is and how valuable time is and letting things progress in the time and that not everything is best if it happens or is created in your 20 year decade you know, a
lot in riches and you might be writing your best songs no matter what your gender is in your fifties or sixties.
I love reinforcing that. Conversation, because I am someone who has that deeply ingrained in me of like, Oh my God, you have to do certain things by a certain age. And I'm like, wait, who are the artists that I love? And the work that they're creating, they didn't do that when they were 20 or 30 or 40.
let time and creativity and art unfold. In the pace that feels natural to you, and also really respecting what comes from gaining wisdom from experience and age, which then feeds your creative work.
[00:44:48] Chris: Well, There's a couple things that are worth keeping in mind. I think as we have all these struggles as artists. It can be a lonely existence, why do athletes get to have a coach? And we don't for some lucky ones we have built in coaches.
It might be, your partner who sees you play every night and can comment on, The things that went well or didn't go well, and you learn from that, or it might be your sound man who you have a good relationship with and you trust their judgment. But in general like, we as musicians, we don't have coaches.
how nice would that be if you're a young touring person in your 20s? Just like a young tennis player. getting in their first Grand Slam. High pressure situation. They're on center court for the first time, but they have this coach to guide them through that experience. And to give them perspective that they would never have as being as a young player that they are.
It's God, I wish I had that as a musician still. someone to just coach me through things. Give me pointers. How can I be better at what I'm doing? Because I might be lost in my own little rabbit holes, the other thing to keep in mind too is the pressure these days. That you as an artist have to do it all so just to remind all of us That back in the day like if making a great record some classic record that we love there was a composer who was separate from the arranger who was separate from the director of the orchestra or the band that was backing up the Great vocalist, The great vocalist didn't write the great song, they didn't arrange the great song. Who was separate from the great engineer, who masterfully miked the whole orchestra and mixed this incredible piece of music. And, so there's such a large team of people that used to go into great art, or a great piece of music.
These days, you're expected to do it all in your bedroom. You're supposed to be the writer, the arranger, the producer, the artist. We're all supposed to be Prince, that's just, that's way too high of a bar to put on anybody, and of course you're gonna start losing your mind, because, unless you're a freak like Prince, you don't have all those skills at such a high level.
You can't play every instrument like Stevie Wonder every song is not going to be a masterwork. It's going to be a process of learning how to get there. I think it's worth reminding ourselves that, the expectations these days are way too high. also, on top of that, now be our own publicist and PR person.
And you have to like, be on Instagram and you have to be an influencer.
[00:47:14] Michaela: Marketing,
[00:47:15] Chris: it's insane, the amount of
[00:47:17] Michaela: video maker.
[00:47:18] Chris: Yeah.
you're supposed to be just an all at one master creator genius. And that's just not how most people operate. We need to collaborate. We need to be involved with other creative people, and it's a team project.
And that's fun, too. It's more fun. I think that's what's beautiful about being in a band, or having a co writer. Or all the different people, or knowing a great engineer, or knowing a great arranger, like all these people that can be part of a creative act with you. You don't have to do it alone.
[00:47:50] Oliver: I think Chris and
I, exactly. it gets really lonely.
It's nice to have a team and people that you can, get riled up together with and, I think Chris and I joke about this a lot but I think we are very grateful for what we call our slow rise to the middle, which a career wise, which has been really like, I can't imagine being in your twenties and having hit songs and then trying to live up to that for the rest of your life or something.
And not that we're ever going for hit songs, but we've been lucky to sort of just gradually, there's never been a big spike in our attendance or our record sales or streams or anything. It's just really slowly picking up, loyal fans and, and it just happened very organically and very slowly and. I feel like there's definitely something healthy about that, the same way that it was healthy for Chris and I to have some time apart to establish who we were and. Understanding it as an artist, regardless of what stage you're at is that all you're trying to do is be yourself as best as you can and that it's not like a sport, it's not something that you measure and so often we compare ourselves, we do ourselves disservice by like oh they have more fans than we do on Instagram or we need to work on that or You start to compare your writing to someone else's writing, or, again, these are things that we can't control, we've been talking about it all day, but it's those are things that that are the toxic things that are, again, how can I enjoy this?
Well, I'm not gonna worry about that shit, I'm gonna focus on this song, and me and Chris are gonna finish this song, and it's gonna be fun. And we're going to like it, who cares if anyone else likes it.
And I feel like as you get older, it would be terrible to feel like, Oh, I've never written something as good as I did ten years ago or whatever.
I do remember a good Stevie Wonder quote, and somebody asked him What's the best song you ever wrote? And he said, I like to think I haven't written it yet. he's like, I don't know, I'm gonna write it tomorrow, or
[00:49:47] Chris: That's
[00:49:47] Oliver: don't look back.
[00:49:48] Chris: That's why he's great. He has that playful spirit he's not keeping score always fun to get into music and play like a child, you know It's just music is endlessly interesting And nobody knows what makes it good or bad.
Nobody really knows. That's why it never gets
[00:50:07] Chris and Oliver: Yes, that's
[00:50:07] Chris: Because nobody has the final formula, the final answer. It's just something you play at. And it's fun too, because it's a path to self expression. But it's also a path to connect with other people.
[00:50:19] Michaela: I have just one last question on that. I guess it's two questions in your slow growth, have there ever been times that you guys, one or the other, both felt like, Oh my God, this is so hard. Should we keep doing this?
[00:50:32] Chris: Keep touring, or keep... Keep doing what?
[00:50:35] Michaela: Keep putting out records, touring, or has it just, you guys have had blind dedication of, no, this is what we do.
[00:50:44] Oliver: I feel, I definitely feel like, No this is what we do. I don't exactly know what else I would do,
[00:50:49] Chris: No
[00:50:49] Oliver: I will add as an aging human. I definitely have regrets about missing a lot of kids stuff. those are the things that give me doubts. Like, Oh shit, my family, I don't get to see him enough.
And that is the one thing gives me doubt about this lifestyle. every time I get in a groove at home, I feel like this is awesome. And then I just get torn away and that has not gotten easier. If it sometimes it's gotten harder. Even though I'm so used to it, I've been doing it for 25 30 years, and so has Chris.
that part it drives me nuts. I wish there was a better way to do that. It is. And the one thing that makes it, we talked about this earlier, Michaela, I think you said it. when we make this music and do it from the heart and, it ends up being something universally. Understandable and possibly healing. And you know, when you get that kind of feedback from an audience or from a fan who just says, this really helps my life or this got me through something. You feel like, okay, we are making a sacrifice.
for a purpose beyond just, Oh, we need to make a living and stuff.
or we want people to adore us or whatever, you know, it's like, Oh, this is important. work, so that's one of the things that keeps us going, aside from it being our income and, our connection to each other. Is that, but I will say that the doubts that I get about it is, man, I want to see my kids more and I want to spend more time with my wife.
And that part is hard still.
[00:52:19] Chris: That can feel like a curse. I can relate to that too. I mean, Now I'm living in a situation where I'm basically, I'm a farmer on this little island in British Columbia. So weird. never saw that coming, but that's my reality now. it's the two different life thing, you end up having these two lives that you bounce back and forth from and the constant challenge is how can you make both those lives feel like one life, one continuum. And that's not easy. but so I've had those same fantasies like man, if I could just, Farm without distraction for months on end.
Imagine what I could get done. We've, all the loose ends would be tied up. All the things that drive me nuts, like, all the to do lists would actually finally get done, and this is maybe a very different thing than missing a connection with a child but it's something I think we can all relate to that we also fixate on.
It's just this idea. sometimes you're hanging out with your kid and it sucks, you're annoyed and it's not a pleasant experience, but we idealize it, at least we're going through this shitty experience together and we'll both remember it and it's something that will bond us, so there's that, then there's also the fantasy of like finishing everything on your to do list. And then, if you really follow it to its logical conclusion, then what? What are you going to do then, when you've done everything on your to do list,
[00:53:38] Chris and Oliver: yeah.
[00:53:38] Chris: obviously you're just going to put more things on your to do list. It's never, ever going to end. And at first, you might get really depressed by that.
But then, when you think about it for a second, it becomes very liberating. Because you're like, you know what, this struggle will literally never end. Back to the moment. Let's just enjoy doing whatever is next on the list. because you never reach that goal. Ever. And if I was home farming and enjoying the farming, I'm going to start missing music.
Because I love playing music. And I love writing music with Oliver. And I love performing music with Oliver and Jono. And I love this tour family that we have, over years and years and years. We now have this amazing crew that's like a family. And I love those people and I want to see them. And so if I get my fantasy of just staying home for months and months on end, I'm going to miss that too. And I miss the feeling, of like what it's like to be good at your instrument and to feel, know, like as we'd say as musicians, all my chops are really together. And I just, everything's flowing and creativity is flowing and all those things we get from being together and making music together.
I'm going to miss the hell out of that if I get my simple home life. I'm also going to be broke. so, you know, It's the more you think this through, it's just like, Nope, this is the life. This is it. I'm just going to learn to roll with it, and do the best I can, and stop ruminating on how miserable it is.
[00:55:01] Oliver: exactly I can't imagine changing it in either direction either I feel like it's just a balance and that's the way we're lucky to have it like ultimately think we're lucky to have what we have.
[00:55:12] Chris: It's really hard, and we're really lucky.
[00:55:14] Michaela: Yeah, when you first started saying it, Oliver. I felt this pang of like, Oh no, I have a lifetime ahead of missing my daughter and like always contemplating if I should quit. And then by the time you guys stopped talking about this, I was like, Oh no, what a blessing to have two worlds that you love so deeply and how to look at it that way and that they also enrich, you guys are who you are and you come home once the reentry period is acclimated to your family.
And are the person that they love because of the work that you get to do out there
[00:55:47] Oliver: our kids are lucky too, because that's what they've known since they were little, so it's not like they got pushed into this world of all of a sudden where, oh my god, dad's gone, no, that's the normal pattern, that's their reality, and that's, that will be your kid's reality too, that's how our life is, and it's okay.
Right.
[00:56:04] Chris: I think it's the control thing again. We come back to this like we're constantly trying to solve this problem of the touring life in the home life and, there's things you can do, obviously, there's smart decisions you can make versus really bad decisions obviously. But ultimately, it's a hopeless situation, and I feel like hopelessness is very underrated.
But, if you just accept that, you know what, this is hopeless it's gonna be hard. There's no way to make it so it's not hard. And then you accept it.
[00:56:34] Oliver: yeah,
[00:56:34] Chris: hopeless. I'm never gonna solve this problem. So I'm gonna surrender to it and enjoy it. And I'm gonna look at my calendar and realize that, oh Yeah that day that looks like it's gonna be really shitty.
It might actually be fun. And that day where I think it's going to be the best gig ever. that gig might be the worst gig of your life. what are you going to do?
[00:56:51] Aaron: Yeah, all conversation We've been talking about like the little tools to bring you back to the present and the thing for me that works with all this is it's no secret that trying to build a career around your music is hard. people can never play an instrument in their life and they're like, that's hard.
so somebody said it in the last, two months. Somebody's like, yeah, this is what hard looks like. So if I'm sitting like, oh, this is so hard. If I just say, this is what hard looks like, it's instantly like, this isn't that bad. I made it through yesterday. I'm going to make it through today.
This is what hard looks like. Okay, cool. I can handle this
[00:57:19] Oliver: Yeah,
and you still get to play music as much as you
[00:57:21] Chris: that's the beauty of it. You can pick up your instrument and try again and
[00:57:25] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:57:26] Chris: maybe you'll enjoy it even more. All
[00:57:28] Aaron: Well, You guys said, how lucky we are to be able to do this and we feel we're really lucky with this podcast to be able to have conversations like this that are just so engaging and so inspiring and fulfilling So thank you both for taking time on your day off to sit
[00:57:41] Oliver: Thanks for, Thank you. It was a nice talk. I feel like we just had a good therapy session.
[00:57:45] Michaela: Yeah, likewise. I feel like my brain just expanded.
[00:57:50] Chris: think I'm going to remember to remember today.
[00:57:52] Michaela: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Please tell everybody I say hi and hopefully we'll see you all over at the farmer's market this fall in Nashville.
[00:58:00] Oliver: will see you there in
[00:58:01] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:58:02] Oliver: right,
[00:58:02] Aaron: right, guys. Have a
[00:58:03] Michaela: great day. Bye.
[00:58:04] Chris: Take care.
[00:58:04] Michaela: Bye.
[00:58:05] Chris: See ya.
[00:58:06] Oliver: Bye bye.