Sara + Sean Watkins are Grammy winning musicians that are 2/3 of Nickel Creek (which they started with Chris Thile as kids), The Watkins Family Hour (which features Fiona Apple, Benmont Tench, Jon Brion, John C Riley, and rotating cast of incredible musicians), their own solo records, Sara is in I'm With Her (with Sara Jarosz & Aiofe O'Donovan), as well as collaborations with Jackson Browne, John Mayer, Blake Mills, Dawes, and many others. We talk about the power in diverse skillsets we gain both touring in a large variety of situations as well as various levels of business responsibilities, authenticity and humbleness (versus the emperors new clothes), never taking situations for granted, faking it, and a whole lot of laughs.
Sara + Sean Watkins are Grammy winning musicians that are 2/3 of Nickel Creek (which they started with Chris Thile as kids), The Watkins Family Hour (which features Fiona Apple, Benmont Tench, Jon Brion, John C Riley, and rotating cast of incredible musicians), their own solo records, Sara is in I'm With Her (with Sara Jarosz & Aiofe O'Donovan), as well as collaborations with Jackson Browne, John Mayer, Blake Mills, Dawes, and many others. We talk about the power in diverse skillsets we gain both touring in a large variety of situations as well as various levels of business responsibilities, authenticity and humbleness (versus the emperors new clothes), never taking situations for granted, faking it, and a whole lot of laughs.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and we are in our second year, almost halfway through our second year, very excited to still be here. So thank you for listening.
[00:00:21] Aaron: We're keenly aware that without having you guys here, we'd just be basically making voice memos for ourselves. So, with that, we have a few asks so that we can continue to grow this show and continue to bring new guests and new ideas your way. Streaming podcast pays absolutely no money. And so instead of interrupting our conversations with ads or Trying to sell you, pastoral pedic mattresses.
We've decided to start a Patreon and over there you can get advanced notice of guests so that you can have your questions answered directly by them. There is community. There is one on one coaching with Michaela or I if you really want to go deep and if there are slots available.
So if you're interested in any of that. There is a link below in the show notes, we offer basically everything besides the coaching for less than a coffee a month, and it goes directly to us to continue to make this show what it is, secondly, would be to follow or subscribe wherever you listen or watch, and then lastly, take your favorite episode, whether it's this one or one of the 64 other episodes, and share that with somebody that doesn't know about our show that might get something from it.
[00:01:23] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on in this podcast is that we are not music journalists. We're not interviewing guests about how they made their record or what tour is coming up.
We are musicians ourselves. So these conversations often feel like just some Old or new friends sitting around the table, talking about the really honest realities of what building a lifelong career around your art is.
[00:01:46] Aaron: And As our guests said today, unprompted, What we do is pretty crazy.
really that's because most of our career is completely outside of our control. And so we like to keep these conversations centered on what is within our control, being our headspace or our mindsets, routines or habits, things that we've learned on the road, off the road, in the studio, wherever it might be.
And we've boiled that all down to the underlying question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to ask that question of sean and sarah watkins
[00:02:20] Michaela: Yes, brother sister bluegrass I kind of hate the word phenom, but that's that would probably be in a press release somewhere.
But Sarah and Sean are known for their work in Nickel Creek, which they joined when they were eight and 12, or started with Chris Thile at eight and 12. They also have so many other projects. solo side projects. Sarah's recorded multiple solo records as has Sean. Sarah has a band, I'm With Her with Sarah Jarosz and Aoife O'Donovan.
They have the Watkins Family Hour, which is a monthly show at Largo in LA, which features musicians like Benmont Tench, Greg Lease, John C. Reilly, The Comedian, The Milk Carton Kids, John Bryan. They have played and performed with Jackson Brown, Fiona Apple, Dawes, Garrison Keillor, John Mayer.
They've had a pretty incredible and do have a pretty incredible career.
But what's so cool about what they shared is that they continually have the range from the outside looking in. You'd think, man, they're superstars. They've got it made. And they talk about how they're touring. It all is project by project and really being adept and thoroughly enjoying the pros and cons of everything.
Every range of performance and touring whether you're driving by yourself in a car or on a bus Performing at big theaters.
[00:03:35] Aaron: Sarah made a point to say that You know when they took their first little intentional break from Nickel Creek to explore other artistic projects, you know all of a sudden she was being her own TM and she was having to book flights for people and do tour budgeting and all of this and she was learning on the job, but made her understanding of everything grow exponentially.
And then later in the conversation, Sean started talking about that in regards to instruments and learning other instruments and how that grows your understanding exponentially, which was a cool little Easter egg circular thing. You know, I like to tie up episodes with, the front and the back, but we touch a whole range of subjects in the middle.
They're great people. They're great characters. They have some really incredible insight across the board. And so we're not going to keep you from that without further ado. Here is Sean and Sarah Watkins.
[00:04:23] Sean: Well thank you guys so much for being willing to come on and talk to us for an hour. How are you guys doing and, just to start, where, are you today?
[00:04:33] Sara: We're both in our Los Angeles houses, I'm in my, you see my living room back here.
[00:04:37] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:04:38] Sean: yeah, Sarah and I are about, like, ten minutes from each other. I'm in my little home studio. There's instruments all around. It's a
[00:04:45] Michaela: Amazing.
So one of the things that's like so prevalent for you guys from the outside looking in is just how many different things you guys are always doing, all the different projects that you're juggling. What's kind of taking up your space and time these days what does an average day look like right now?
[00:05:04] Sara: we're in Nickel Creek album cycle right now. 23
we're going to finish it up this fall of 24. so that's a really pleasant of touring. It's a lot of dates. But we're in a tour bus and we have a really supportive crew who make everything happen and allow us to, you know, focus on to execute the music and be good hosts to the audience every night and all that stuff.
[00:05:32] Sara & Sean: Yeah. I'm
[00:05:36] Sara: For every different project.
[00:05:37] Sean: if it's a solo record,
[00:05:39] Sara: least for me, there are no tour buses involved. I'm sort of weaning myself off of, that for the time being, I mean, you know, what, what is life like on the road?
[00:05:49] Sean: It's kind of opposite of off the road. Yeah. You know, sleeping happens. almost opposite. we've been doing these soundcheck, VIP party things that happen at 5.
So 3 to 5, soundcheck, then 5 to 6 is the VIP, and then And then the show is like eight or nine. And means, you know, ending by 11 or a little bit after and then getting on the bus around midnight and going to sleep, a couple hours after that. And then a home is, you know, home is. the lovely domestic life, it's always a little tricky switching, between the two.
But I found the more, you know, the more we've, we've done it, the easier it, gets. It's never easy, but, but you kind of at least know what to expect, we always call it re entry. It's like,
one mode, to another is tricky business, but feel so grateful to get to do what we do.
[00:06:36] Aaron: Yeah, my frequency of touring really cut down before the pandemic luckily and so, you know when we stepped into like Parenthood and all of that. I leave town like maybe twice a year at this point, but I always kind of feel like the Kool Aid man when I come back. it's like bust through a wall.
I'm like, okay, I'm here.
[00:06:51] Sean: Yeah.
[00:06:52] Aaron: at it. It's six in the morning. I'm up. I'm like, cool. I'm responsible for another life immediately upon opening my eyes.
[00:06:58] Michaela: Yeah. Do you feel like you guys have had to, especially adding children to your lives? do you feel like you've had to be intentional about managing your re entry?
or is it just like, this is what life is and I've figured out and hopefully my spouse is okay. And have you guys like learned any skills? selfishly motivated
[00:07:16] Sean: Yeah.
[00:07:18] Sara: I often think about our friend, Dan Wilson, who's an incredible songwriter. he would come back from tour to his wife and child. he explained to his wife, takes me a couple of days to like, get into the home life mindset, you know, you just gotta be patient with me. And she said something to the effect of, what I need you to do is just pretend that everything's fine. I need you
[00:07:38] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:07:41] Sara: and jumping in. and he was like, Okay, I can do that. And I often think about that, where it's like, Okay, I'm just going to fake it for a couple of days.
[00:07:48] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:07:49] Sara: being a mom, a lot of it is just faking it. Like, you don't always feel like having a nice civil response to your toddler.
And
[00:07:56] Sara & Sean: Right.
[00:07:57] Sara: that you are. so, I often think of Dan Wilson when I'm flying back home. At like 6am to try and get home before my kid gets out of school after being gone for two and a half weeks.
[00:08:07] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:08:08] Sean: a big part of that was her, like, really sincerely understanding. She's like, I totally get it. understand. here's an idea. What if you just pretend not even
be in that place because it's, you just can't, sometimes you just can't get there, but you can pretend.
[00:08:23] Aaron: Yeah. I mean, we do that with shows you're not gonna show up and be like, I'm sorry This show is gonna be like 60 because like
my flight was delayed and my toddler didn't sleep for the last week But like we'll be cool, right?
You know
[00:08:34] Sara: Totally.
[00:08:35] Sara & Sean: don't
[00:08:35] Sara: it's, often our families
[00:08:36] Sean: Yeah.
[00:08:38] Sara: in every relationship, matter what your job is, there are the stories of you know, you hold it together all day long while you're at work and then you come home and the dinner table and you just can't do it anymore.
And so the people we love the most are the ones who. get to see our most pointed and harsh and rough sides.
that's definitely true in our lives too. It just takes a little bit of effort to, you know, avoid being to the people that we love the most.
[00:09:01] Michaela: I remember like years ago Kristen Andreassen telling me that she like started to notice at different festivals I think it was Brian Sutton the last night He would bow out of like the jams or the parties and she said she like asked him you know, what's the deal?
Where are you going or whatever? And he was like, I've basically determined it's much easier, better for my family when I come home rested. If I stay up the last night of tour or festival, jamming and having fun, I come home ragged and my family feels that impact way more. So my deal with my wife is the last night I go to bed early so I can come home and I was like, this was years before we had kids, so I was like, Oh yeah, cause now it's just, so brutal to have to parent and be tired. And then all of your emotional, you know, recalibration and like ending of a tour if it was really great or if it was tough or like all of that stuff that you're processing. And your kid doesn't care. Your kid just like needs you to be interested in. Whatever they're showing you that they're, playing with or whatever.
So,
[00:10:05] Sara: 100%.
[00:10:06] Sean: foregoing the, final night, also the, the last night of the festival is not the best night usually, but just being alone or, you know, not, being around a ton of people. And then jumping back into home life, that to me
know, it's very helpful, earlier quieter night in would definitely help the transition.
[00:10:23] Michaela: Yeah. I mean, you guys started playing and performing professionally, like so young. Have you found that your relationship to music and performing and touring has had different phases, especially different ages that you've been in or starting a family? have you observed it kind of change?
Like your. desire or your intensity or has it kind of always been the same for you and then life happens?
[00:10:51] Sean: I mean, early on Nickel Creek started when I was 12 and Sarah and Chris were 8. you know, so we were a kid band for a long time. We were playing festivals. it wasn't the intense touring we're doing now.
It was mostly just in the summertime. A lot of contests in the bluegrass world. There's a lot of instrument contests and that's kind of how you cut your teeth. we did a ton of, just little bluegrass festivals around the Southwest of the United States for the first 10 years traveling, a little bit but not that much.
And then 2000 is when our first Nickel Creek album that people know about came out. And from then on it was, lot of touring. and making records. before that we didn't really think we were going to be, able to do this professionally.
I mean, we were all going to college. I was going to school to learn music composition. I was about to start at San Diego state. And, In 2000, right before we started touring I didn't know what was going to happen, but all the people I looked up to.
My teachers and everything, they kind of all had day jobs, you know, they were really talented and really good, but they also had day jobs. And so I was sort of.my mentality was like, well, I love this and I'm always going to do this. I'm a lifer, had no idea that I'd actually be able to make it my livelihood. and that was because our teachers, they sort of instilled in us this, love of music but also a knowledge that As much talent and hard work you might put into it, that doesn't guarantee it anything. But you can still do it for the love of it, which is awesome.
and that's something that you'll always have. you know, since touring it just kind of became our livelihood since that time. We've just been so grateful. And I've always had same amount of, passion to do it that I've ever had even, you know, even more.
So these days, the more time goes by, the more grateful I am more I realize what a rare, rare thing it is to be able to do what I love For a living, you know, and it's hard and stressful and all the stuff that goes along with it, but that goes along with any, sort of life.
all the life stuff kind of comes in and, know, you move stuff around. I feel like you can kinda hold, things in different hands, you know, like your career and, family. And it's just balancing and figuring out how to do both, it's tricky, but, but you can do it.
[00:12:53] Aaron: do you have any specific barometer to be able to know when things are out of balance? Whether that's career and family or maybe different projects, you know Maybe nickel creek is not getting enough attention or your solo stuff. You got an itch that needs to be scratches. Is there some kind of barometer that you have to kind of keep yourself in check.
[00:13:11] Sara: It kind of feels to me like stirring pots on a stove.
[00:13:14] Aaron: we want to keep these various things alive.
[00:13:18] Sara: For Nickel Creek, got together to make this record because we realized it had been a very long time. And all of a sudden with the pandemic, we had the time to, are cleared and all the logistic, obstacles went away.
Well, not all of them. There were new ones, but the calendars wiped clean. And so we were able to get together and do that. And. In the course of the writing process, we did a couple of live streams that went really well, and we were very surprised by how many people signed on to watch those.
just incredibly, like, honored that people remembered us so fondly and wanted to set aside their time to see us.
And, so that was really heartening. And, there's no guarantee that people are going to remember, but, you know, we try and keep. various things alive and then that's also keeping stuff alive in us too. we have a project called the Watkins family hour, which is a monthly show that we do here in Los Angeles.
And we've done it for 23 years,
[00:14:09] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:14:10] Sara: months. Between tours. And I don't always want to do it. Sean doesn't always want to do it, but usually one of us like, come on, let's do the next month. Let's let's get the, the, the, get the guest line up or
[00:14:21] Sean: Yeah,
[00:14:22] Sara & Sean:
[00:14:22] Sara: feels like a summer rain to me, like a creative summer rain, because what happens most times there are a couple of clunkers here now and then, but like for those shows, mostly what happens is We're able to gather a few friends, who play in the band, and they're all incredible musicians who I want to see and hear and play with.
And then some guests will come by and bring songs, and we'll get to play with them, and we'll get to hang out, and it feels a little bit like party for ourselves.
[00:14:50] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm. .Mm-Hmm.
[00:14:51] Sara: Largo, which I remember Glenn Phillips told you, was talking about on your podcast a little while ago.
And
[00:14:57] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:14:57] Sara: reason we started going there, because we wanted to see him play.
And it introduced us to this incredible community of people who have, that have become a real lifeblood for us in Los Angeles. And the frequency of that and keeping that alive has been a really big part of what keeps me alive. motivated and engaged, through the various projects. And when I'm feeling really tired have reassessed like a lot starting a family, thinking about growing a family and making decisions about all of that stuff.
Like, do I want to keep doing this? Like, what is the thing that, keeps me choosing? This, because it's hard. I don't like leaving my child for a big period
[00:15:34] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:15:34] Sara: But there are a lot of really great benefits. when I'm home, I'm home. So I'm gone for a couple weeks at a time. My
[00:15:42] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:15:43] Sara: you know, is here and is incredibly supportive.
Both of us have really supportive spouses
[00:15:47] Michaela: yeah
[00:15:49] Sara: But when I'm home, I can do everything. I can go on the field trips. I can pick her up at 2 PM, which is a ridiculous time. The kids have to come out of school because nobody who works a normal job can possibly do it.
Like is, we're so stupid. The, the scheduling of it, it's, and
[00:16:05] Sean: yeah,
[00:16:06] Sara: many weird days off. Like you think it's like, okay, great. I'm on track. And then you're like, Nope. There are surprises every week. But when I'm home, I can do that and it's really great. And she comes on tour, like our kids get to come with us.
And so there are so many benefits. It's not just like, oh, I'm leaving my child. It's like, no, there's a really good life that we can do. And so
[00:16:22] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm
[00:16:24] Sara: sure that the benefits stay. the benefits of career path. are the flexibility, are the ability to, like, share it with my family and, like, in a cool town that the tour ends on and, you
[00:16:41] Sara & Sean: hmm Pays for three nights of hotels so we can do that and make memories in these great places.
[00:16:47] Sara: And every summer, so far, I've gotten to take my kid on tour with me for a period of time, maybe it's just a week. she remembers that and she gets to be a part my great hope is that it's not just the thing that takes me away from her. It's the thing that she gets to be a part of.
so I mean, I do reassess and like, is this really something that I need to do? And the thing that comes back to me is I really need this community. Like, I really need the community of musicians, of friends, of people. I don't want to lose my skillset by
[00:17:17] Sara & Sean: Yeah Mm
[00:17:19] Sara: a very unique form of, of play for me. I get to practice something on my fiddle, particularly, that's very challenging, the way that I can get lost while practicing it is so fun in my
[00:17:34] Sean: yeah,
[00:17:34] Sara: And I have so many limitations, but I do have the ability to like, have a hyper focus that allows me to.
lost in this thing, come out of it in 45 minutes, and realize like, Oh, I'm doing this better now than I was.
there's nothing else in my life like that. And it's really valuable to me. I really want my kid to know that if you work really hard at something, you can better at it and keep working at it.
And there are a lot of reasons why I choose to keep doing this thing that requires constant navigation and constant reassessment and, and And I feel really lucky that I get to have choices because a lot of people don't have choices about
[00:18:11] Sara & Sean: Yeah Yeah.
[00:18:12] Sara: life right now at this stage. You know, a lot
[00:18:14] Sean: yeah,
[00:18:15] Sara: like, well, you picked your lane.
You got to stick to it for another 20
[00:18:18] Sara & Sean: Right.
[00:18:18] Sara: then stick it out for another 15, get that retirement. And I'm sure there's a lot of benefit to that security and that like stability. But that's not the lane I'm in. and I feel really grateful that I have a lane.
[00:18:28] Michaela: Yeah. I'm curious, if your desire has shifted in different phases, specifically you, Sarah, because I know Sean answered it, but I'm so curious about how it's different for mothers as well and how it affects our creativity and our sense of self. Because obviously, like, parenthood is so.
Transformative and life changing, the physical and chemical changes that happen in women,
When you give birth and now have this, limb existing in the world that was in your body for so long. I've personally found it like still three years in, like wait, I'm different.
Right. And I've talked to Aoife about it, about like, the creativity really shifting. So I'm, curious, if you felt any of that and if that's informed. Okay, cool.
[00:19:12] Sara: I've felt a lot of creativity change. I've not done much writing at all by myself since
[00:19:18] Sara & Sean: Mm
[00:19:19] Sara: which could be seasonal, because I, I am very seasonal in that way. But it also could be some other kind of change. I do a lot of co writing with my bandmates, and that's great. It also could be A number of things, but I've found that on stage I'm much freer than I ever
[00:19:35] Sara & Sean: Mm.
[00:19:36] Sara: because who gives a flying
if I botched a solo or if I did something dumb, IFA about this, she and I had an incredible privilege of mothering on the road together with kids the same age and getting to work and have them with us.
And it was. insane and amazing. And, I remember leaving the stage and being like, well, that happened. Next thing is like go to sleep. So you can wake up with your kid and then do it all over again. And sometimes it's exhilarating. You feel like super mom. And sometimes you are just drained beyond anything nothing really matters if your kid is healthy.
so
[00:20:11] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:20:11] Sara: Make a fool of myself on stage doesn't really matter because of these other priorities. And I found it very freeing I'm having much more fun on stage. I feel much more playful because the risks are just silly and I take it seriously. I work hard. But I'm having much more fun and I feel much more open to be silly and trash it because the worst case scenario isn't that bad.
that's one thing that's really great. I also find that like, I, do like to stay busy, but I really love being home. we've had, basically six weeks at home right now for the first time in a long time. I am just so happy about it. Like I turn off my social media when I'm not on tour.
[00:20:51] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm? makes me so happy.
Mm-Hmm.
[00:20:54] Sara: books. I end up just sitting and like looking at trees move in the wind and it just makes me so happy
[00:21:00] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:21:00] Sara: I just love nothing. It's great. I highly recommend it.
[00:21:04] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:21:05] Sean: love the idea of, there's that Jeff Tweedy book, like let's leave so we can come back again, have the same, feeling where I love the off time.
Yeah. if I didn't have the on time, I wouldn't love the off time like I do, you know,
[00:21:17] Sara: Yes.
[00:21:18] Sean: need both to appreciate if I only had off time, I would be hustling. I'd be trying to drum up stuff. I'd be working hard. but because we do have that, I really feel like I can enjoy and not feel guilty about, you know, Doing nothing.
that took work,
[00:21:30] Sara & Sean: Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
[00:21:31] Sean: to I always felt like, we're groomed as musicians to be hustlers, it's gig economy. you're waiting for a call or you're making stuff happen on your own. You know, no one's sending you a paycheck.
so I think because of that, the mindset is like, you can't ever slow down.
[00:21:46] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:21:47] Sean: Right now, Sarah and I are in little tour cycle at Dingle Creek and that enables us to really enjoy the downtime in a really significant way. I'm very
[00:21:55] Sara & Sean: hmm.
[00:21:55] Sean: for that.
[00:21:56] Michaela: And I know it's not the way it's always going to be, I think sometimes there's this outside perspective or idea that like, oh, if you're in a band like Nickel Creek, you're just good. you're financially set. And when you guys have years in between where you're doing, I'm With Her, your other solo projects, or Watkins Family Hour on the road, all that stuff,
is it then like, okay, now I gotta, hustle to get, income going and figuring that out? And does it ever feel stressful? And is there any, like Ego stuff of like, wait, I was like on a bus and playing these big shows.
And now I'm trying to like, get these little shows going and any of that kind of
[00:22:32] Sara: don't play. for me, if anything, it takes me a second to take myself seriously on a bigger stage like Nickel Creek, because I think of myself much more as like this, strappy little fiddle player at a
[00:22:43] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:22:44] Sara: And I really, love that. feel like I have toured in such a huge range of experiences where it's like, driving your own car or you're renting a sedan.
And you're driving yourself, seven hours to this other gig, and you gotta figure out a way to stay awake, or like, how you wanna do it, and like, am I doing one way rentals? Am I like, dropping off here? Like, doing all the various financial things, like, can I save 200 bucks if I like, drive out of town a little bit before I get to a different hotel?
Like, all of that stuff, there's a certain pride I take in knowing how to do that pretty well.
[00:23:17] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:23:17] Sara: need to, which I will need to again, I'm sure.
[00:23:20] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:23:23] Michaela: hmm.
[00:23:24] Sara: yourself and you're still having to do all the TM work and like the logistics but maybe you'll forget yourself in a sprinter for a different project and then like, bus. there are so many versions of it and I really, exercising all of those muscles. I feel like it gives me more options as a musician. similarly to if you're able to lead a show yourself and be a front person in front of band, that's one skill set.
But we, as musicians need to have the range and you need to be able to support somebody else's vision. You need to like be able to learn their harmony parts quickly and learn whatever string part is on their record that they want you to play. play different instruments and challenge yourself in different ways, do March at your friend's show or whatever it is, the whole operation is really fun thing to be a part of, and I think I love being part of a team how to do a little bit of all that stuff.
And, it makes me feel good to exercise those different muscles and feel like I can still survive In these various, folky situations, or like, you know, hopefully step into a strength if I find myself on like a big festival stage and like own that.
add that. to that question, I feel like. I'm just now getting to the point where I can kind of look at the various parts of my career and ways of touring objectively. and, you know, aspects of my career like doing, Nickel Creek stuff or other band stuff or solo stuff.
[00:24:43] Sean: supporting other people, you know, as a side person. I'm able to like, sort of look at that as objectively from above, whereas before, beginning 2008, that was when we took our first, intentional Nickel Creek break.
And that was for us all to explore other stuff. Cause we'd just been doing Nickel Creek so intensely for seven years. it was all new. It was all like, okay, I'll do this and figuring it out. And There were no expectations because he didn't know what we were stepping into.
So yeah, if that means driving around by yourself for one other person, you're going to do because this is music. And we also, have seen a lot of other musicians and people we know step in and out of roles like that. And so there's like precedent for it.
You know, we have friends that
[00:25:22] Sara & Sean: Huh. Huh. huh. Huh. Huh. Huh.
[00:25:34] Sean: and he's happy to do it.
And I think having those examples really helps. I mean, it helps with expectations and I think that you know, if you really love doing it. And for me, a huge part of the love is connecting with people. there's, just as much connection for me regardless of the size of the audience. And that's something that really, drives me no matter what the circumstances are. Mm
[00:25:55] Sara: Yeah, I think that you make a really good point, Sean, of like, there were people giving us that example ahead of time. People who we knew, people whose, music we loved so hard and that mattered to us so much. Lugress is such a scrappy, industry. It's not an industry, like, like whatever, it's a situation success or somebody's brilliance.
not always displayed by comfort. so, you know, we saw, our favorite musicians doing whatever it took to like do their gig. is not worn on their bodies necessarily. And being a great musician is not a fancy thing in bluegrass, if anything, like it's almost like punk rock where you, it's kind of frowned upon if you wear it too much, you know?
so I think there is something really advantageous about having that mindset and that example early on because,
[00:26:45] Michaela: you guys didn't have like a judgment.
[00:26:47] Sara: Wants to be able to pay their bills, but like, Tim O'Brien, of our favorite musicians in the world up in a, a van or a car or whatever, play and sing them.
[00:26:57] Sara & Sean: And blow your mind and it's no big deal. And then he'll go sign CDs and then he'll out. And, that's kind of the example of, None of the fanciness is a testament to quality huh.
[00:27:08] Sean: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:27:09] Sara: I think the cautionary tale is like, make sure you get your Shit together in terms of like, you got your heart in the right place, you're paying attention to what you're playing you add any of that stuff. That was always sort of the,
[00:27:19] Sara & Sean: the scene that we grew
huh. Mm hmm.
[00:27:22] Sean: hmm. that's funny. I, I'm not singling out anybody in particular but living in Nashville, I see that with the bluegrass musicians that I see here, the more roots musicians, But I see almost the exact opposite in like the country scene where it's kind of like fake it till you make it and it's all about image and how you're portrayed and.
[00:27:39] Aaron: So, you know, it depends on what you show up in and like,
you know, somewhere in the ballpark of being able to afford a bus, you get a bus so that you can show up and you're like, look, I'm on a bus. I deserve this and it's almost turns into this like emperor's new clothes kind of thing.
[00:27:50] Sara: 100%.
But then you see someone like Vince Gill show up and sit in with the time jumpers, the station inn,
[00:27:55] Sara & Sean: Yeah,
[00:27:56] Aaron: exactly.
[00:27:57] Sara: your mind, melts your face, and makes you just be like, what the hell did I just see?
[00:28:03] Michaela: He's wearing like cargo shorts.
[00:28:05] Sara: he's just like,
[00:28:06] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:28:06] Sara: doing his thing and, you know, telling a dumb joke walking on stage and then just melting your face.
[00:28:12] Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:28:13] Sara: it's like, oh, well, that's the real shit right there.
[00:28:16] Sean: also from, again, in my judgment, I think that that glitz and that glamour, like being more real, it stays out of the way of your creativity. I think if you're so focused on like, The presentation of here's my bus. Here's like my crew. And your profit margin is 4 a show.
[00:28:32] Sara: Mhm.
[00:28:32] Aaron: focused on that all the time, I think you would have to inevitably be kind of side eyeing other people to see where they're at and like, Oh, am I, am I keeping up? Is this coming across the right way? And it's like,
[00:28:41] Sean: totally.
[00:28:42] Aaron: there's a lot of energy that can be dedicated towards. Making great music or trying something new?
[00:28:48] Sean: Yeah 100 percent
[00:28:49] Sara: we grip with so much of that that it was hard for me to take myself seriously in any kind of showmanship way. It
[00:28:56] Sara & Sean: Mm
[00:28:56] Sara: But I'm getting better at it.
[00:28:58] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:28:59] Sara: myself seriously and being like, these people want to be here. They want to see a great show.
[00:29:04] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:29:05] Sara: to feel like we are proud of this band and who we are and what we can do.
And they want to see us have fun up here and not be
[00:29:12] Sara & Sean: be apologetic
[00:29:13] Sara: I was so apologetic about my stage performance for so long and my
[00:29:18] Sara & Sean: Oh, really?
[00:29:19] Sara: we'll just like, I was brought up to be like grateful and meek and mild and like, don't say anything. And, you know, like typical, early eighties. female
[00:29:27] Sean: Well,
[00:29:27] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:29:28] Sean: fake humility in the in the like bluegrass worlds.
[00:29:30] Sara: that is too. Yeah. So it's very aw shucksy. And
it's been interesting to step
[00:29:35] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:29:36] Sara: yeah, we're a really good band. we can kick ass. This is really good. We stand behind our music still to like the embrace, any kind of physicality of that on stage is a little bit, it takes bit of getting used to, I'm way better and way more confident in just being me on stage than I ever was, but, you know, even
[00:29:53] Sean: I
[00:29:54] Sara: ago, so reluctant
[00:29:56] Sean: Jenny Lewis was at a Walk Ins Family Hour that we did like, I don't know, seven, eight years ago. And it was when she had, she had that nudie suit that she was wearing every night.
she was about to go on tour and we were talking backstage about, doing shows.
And she just played some big festival. And at one point she just said like, It is crazy to just walk out on stage and expect my personality to be, one running the show, it's just so funny like thinking about, you know, someone like her who, you know, when you see her on stage, she's just exuding confidence and she's just
[00:30:25] Sara & Sean: Mhm.
[00:30:26] Sean: but also has the knowledge that this is crazy, right? this is
[00:30:30] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:34] Sean: walking out on a tightrope. You're just like, well, is this going to be the night it all falls down? And I just. They look back and they're like, well, Sean lost it that night.
He just couldn't remember anything. And,
[00:30:44] Sara & Sean: Yep. that's, how I feel. And it's, it's a mixture of that. And like what Sarah was talking about, you know, it's just being like, yeah, this is what I do. I do this all the time and I can do this and I can kick ass. I absolutely can.
Mhm.
[00:30:56] Sean: and there's also that knowledge that.
It's crazy what we do.
It's so interesting to think about how, you're a product of your environment and what you grow up in. And especially the bluegrass world is so fascinating to me because of, you know, we had Sierra Hole on here and we were talking about this of like my entry point to the bluegrass world was living in New York city in the mid early two thousands and meeting Michael Daves. And taught me how to play guitar. And then I also worked at Nonesuch Records. Sarah, I don't know if you remember, that's when I met you for the first time.
[00:31:29] Sara: so I was introduced to Sarah's music, and that was honestly the first time I heard of Nickel Creek as well, and then Punch Brothers started, and I was like very enmeshed in that.
[00:31:38] Michaela: But I was in a jazz school. I was graduating from Jazz Conservatory, which was a very different energy. And then I would go to these jams that Michael Daves would tell me to come to, and Chris Thiele would be there playing with like, a guy who was a doctor and a woman who's a therapist to like, just their hobby.
players And they'd be like, Michaela, you want to come play? And I'm like, what? Like you know, and then Mike Gordon from fish would walk up and I'd be like, wait, there's not like this crazy hierarchy of us. lay people are allowed to play next to these geniuses. And there was like none of that energy.
Which was very different from, jazz school. but. My bigger point is like when you evolve as a, artist yourself, that you come up as a product of the environment you grow up in and that informs you, but then how then to get to what you are Sarah, you saying I, felt this kind of like aw shucks, meek, whatever, and letting yourself grow to take more confident ownership over yourself and how that's such a different process for all of us.
I didn't grow up in any one community. I was, you know, a military kid and moved all the time, not in musical communities, ended up in jazz school in New York, also liked musical theater, dipped my toe in the bluegrass world, have continually been like, I don't really know where I'm at. I put out a record years ago where I wore this really big, rhinestone suit like Jenny Lewis
[00:33:02] Sean: before she did, I will just say,
Yeah,
[00:33:05] Michaela: copying,
[00:33:06] Sean: yeah. Yeah,
[00:33:08] Michaela: big Eagle on the back, this beautiful suit that Aaron spotted at a vintage shop.
And I like loved it, but I was so uncomfortable to wear it.
Because I was like, people will look at me
[00:33:20] Sara: Yeah.
[00:33:21] Michaela: like, if you're an artist and a show person, you're supposed to want people to look at you. And I've struggled with that so much of like, I'm just going to wear jeans and a t shirt or a dress and cowboy boots and just fit in and like, wait, but you're supposed to own this space.
So I think it's such an interesting thing to observe in all of us, how we each have to find our own way and really recognizing that there isn't one way to be a performer. I always am like, Nora Jones is not someone who's like, running around on stage in a flashy suit there is space for everybody but how you find your own thing is an interesting journey and progression.
[00:34:02] Sara: the door opened for me a lot when I started doing, solo stuff. the very steep learning curve of, you know, doing the tour accounting, like no tour manager, planning all the flights, doing all the logistics, figuring out how to fly everybody in, backline where if you rent gear, if you just like borrow it, from guitar center
then change your mind.
[00:34:22] Aaron: Yeah.
Put it through the paces on stage.
[00:34:24] Sara: totally.
[00:34:24] Aaron: I've been there.
[00:34:25] Sara & Sean: Yeah. Yeah. Mm
[00:34:28] Sara: I got so much pride of ownership knowing how to do stuff not just feeling like a guest on the stage.
[00:34:35] Sara & Sean: Mm.
[00:34:36] Sara: feel like, if you're in one band, you should be in another. If you're doing your own solo project, you should also try and do a collaboration or support somebody else.
[00:34:46] Sara & Sean: Mm.
[00:34:47] Sara: have only one thing that you can do. That'll feel really scary and it's hard to be confident when you're scared.
[00:34:54] Sara & Sean: After I did my first solo record, I was asked to be the fiddle player in the Decembrists for their tour for the king is dead.
hmm. Mm
[00:35:02] Sara: I had been touring for a year and a half.
I was exhausted, no new songs. Cause I'd just been spending all of my creativity trying to figure out how to not, how to pay my bills
[00:35:10] Sara & Sean: and I got a call and invited to like join them for seven months where I didn't have to know all of that stuff. I just played their songs, showed up at soundcheck, showed up at the show and able to like rest and watch movies and like relax and read and recharge and, start to write the next record, but like,
[00:35:29] Sara: if I were a solo artist and I had to, write, record, tour, write, record, tour for my own person, I would just not be a musician
[00:35:36] Michaela: this is my struggle.
[00:35:38] Sara: it's Yeah. not, a reasonable rhythm for me to expect from myself.
I
[00:35:42] Sara & Sean: Yep.
[00:35:43] Sara: to say, It doesn't sound fun to me at
[00:35:45] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:35:46] Sara: So
[00:35:47] Sara & Sean: Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.
[00:35:53] Sara: or I have something to say. that feels singularly from me. So I'm going to put out a record and tour that.
And it's, it feels good right now. okay, Nickel Creek, do something else after that. Then maybe I'll have a batch and then I'll, I'll want to do that. I'll want to like, make all the decisions and like, have a moment to lead the show.
And then Yeah. to just be a part of a group and contribute to a ensemble, that lets me recharge. But the idea of, Gillian Welch put out a record like every 6 to 8 years, and then
[00:36:23] Sean: Or nine or ten.
[00:36:24] Sara & Sean: it seems like a ridiculous It's a model that only exists because of our society.
[00:36:29] Sara: It doesn't have anything to do with the art. I just want to figure out how to have enough and how to keep growing and learning and surrounding myself with other musicians to make sure that I'm not the best musician in the room ever, which is very possible and just do what I need to do and not, you know, feel like I have to keep busy for busy's sake, because that, always a bad sign for me.
[00:36:50] Sean: model you're talking about, I mean, it's also, newish, because of streaming, That's the only way to make a living is to tour and make an album and no one really expects to sell records
you know, you hope that enough people care about the music you put out amidst the
[00:37:04] Sara & Sean: hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:37:06] Sean: day yours came out to come and buy a ticket to a show.
It's crazy,
[00:37:11] Sara & Sean: post World War II is, when we started being referred to as consumers, It's really, frustrating to just feel like a consumer like, Oh, let's make t shirts. Let's make shitty t shirts that nobody really wants so that
Oh my God.
[00:37:23] Sara: to support us. but really nobody really wants them.
And you'll have three boxes after the tour left over, but hopefully you'll have paid for the cost. And then a little bit, something other, and you're just like distributing just trash
[00:37:34] Michaela: landfills. Yeah.
[00:37:36] Sara: detest it so
[00:37:38] Sean: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:41] Sara: way to make a living.
And ideally I can keep from making music for consumers and hopefully it's feeding my soul as well as other people's soul. But I, can't. Really bring myself to make a record that's not feeding my soul
[00:37:56] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:37:56] Sara: in the hope that someone else will wear the shirt merch, By listening to this record that I don't really care about and Nobody's gonna say that they're gonna make a record that they don't care about but all I say is like I can't make music that I care about with the frequency that the market needs
[00:38:12] Sara & Sean: Demands. Yeah.
[00:38:14] Sara: I have to figure out what that will look like and You Hopefully, you know, like
[00:38:19] Sara & Sean: Yeah. There's, yeah.
[00:38:20] Sara: of like, I can teach fiddle.
[00:38:22] Michaela: Yeah, there's so much pressure. It's like very comforting for me to hear this from you because I always struggle with being a solo artist of just like I love making music and playing music, but I hate the pressure of being it all about me all the time.
And also the business pressure of like, to sustain and keep business people wanting to be invested in you. my last record I put out three months later, my agent spent the whole year ignoring me and then was like, you got to make a new record. And I'm like, where have you been?
so that's a very real pressure that, if you have agents, managers, labels that are like, well, if a year goes by and you don't put anything out, then the algorithm, your numbers go down and then your art doesn't look like we're going to make a profit on you.
coming to the decision for yourself. I do teach a lot of music and it's like, okay, so then I don't have that financial pressure to just try and like churn stuff out. I still feel that pressure though. But like, how do you determine for yourself, all right, this is what the industry, this is what society, this is what, the economy is telling me I have to do, but it is so at odds with my natural rhythm and my artistic and.
Creative instincts, so like choosing your way and being okay with the consequences of that. That maybe the labels aren't going to be as interested or you're going to have to go through the process of trying to find a new label every time and that kind of stuff. what's that felt like for you?
[00:39:52] Sara: Huh. My other band, I'm with her. were able that come out to see us and we're able to make records, that you know, are semi funded So there's, there's a certain amount of, I haven't, live this out in like,okay, now I've got to leave Los Angeles and like move in with my parents I haven't lived it out in this kind of way, idealism.
You know, I think there is a lot of very realistic, choices that we all make, like, okay, well, if I want people to come to my shows, they need to know that we're playing shows. So I need to like do some promotion. I need to do all the, I think we need to do this stuff. We need to do the work and set ourselves up for success.
It's just it's figuring out what we need to do to have what we want. And so I think a lot of it is just figuring out what do I want? I want to be involved in a community? Is this the only way that I can do it? Can I do it a different way? Do I want to become a better musician?
do I do that? Do I want to have a successful touring career where like everyone knows my name? How do I get there? last weekend, we were able to be a part of Brian Sutton's guitar camp Brevard, North Carolina. And it was like the most fulfilling weekend.
The travel was terrible. get, it was like one of those, like, I'm choosing the 7am flight out of here to like get home by a certain time while we were there. It was so rejuvenating because so many old friends connect and like see these young kids. Feel like we had something to show them, these lovely, like heartwarming conversations, play with our friends.
And, that is the most important thing for me to maintain the relationship with other musicians. These people who I now have known for over 20 years, almost all of them we had kids, our parents are similar ages. We're now doing life together. And These relationships are very important to me to keep.
and they also represent a part of myself that I might forget if I'm, home and I kind of forget this musician life and I'm like, well, maybe I just do this. If I get, I step into that and I'm like, Oh, right. No, this is very fulfilling. This is very important for me. I need to this. And Remembering what I want and continuing reassess what I want and what my actual goals are rather than doing the thing that, that I might've done in my twenties and thirties where it's like, keep going, keep going, head down, You don't know where you're going, but just, you gotta stay busy.
And
[00:42:08] Sean: Yeah,
[00:42:08] Sara: where I was. And now I'm like, I'm, I'm here. And do I want to be here? And if not, what changes do I make? A privilege
[00:42:16] Sean: the key
[00:42:17] Sara: changes,
[00:42:17] Sean: you were saying in Nashville, what, the, fake it till you make it sort of vibe, you're in it for a level of notoriety or how people perceive you or success or money.
Great. but you're only going to be happy if you achieve that, the only thing that's going to make you happy. But if you're in it for reasons of personal connection you know, the cathartic feeling of like writing a song that says what you actually see.
Feel regardless of how many people hear it, you're going to be happy. you can play a
[00:42:45] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:42:46] Sean: or even just yourself. feel satisfied. and that all comes from being honest with yourself and saying like, what do I actually
[00:42:52] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:42:53] Sean: and do I want it now because I always wanted it or do I want it now because I feel pulled to it.
Now,
[00:42:59] Sara: yeah, it's okay. I think for all of us to reassess we
[00:43:02] Sean: Yeah
[00:43:02] Sara: we're, I'm not the same person I was when I was 25.
[00:43:05] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:43:06] Sara: goals. Thank God.
and that doesn't mean that I'm like tired and like, less motivated to like, stay out every night and, you know, be at every show, and No, yeah, that's right.
am less motivated to be at every show. get nourished in different ways now, and I'm taking care of myself in the ways that I need to in this stage. And it's not necessarily like, I'm less of lifer than I was. It's just like, no, this is what being a lifer is to me now,
[00:43:32] Sean: Yeah
[00:43:33] Sara: is how I, living my life for me, and, I'm really enjoying it.
I'm really enjoying not going out every night. It's great.
[00:43:39] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:43:40] Aaron: Yeah. I noticed what you guys were saying about like, basically defining your why and holding onto that and allowing room for that shift. I noticed that. Pretty much from your first responses you both came in like I do this and this is what fulfills me and I need the community or I need connection like you guys came out right out the gates saying that and I think I can feel that in the music that you guys make as Nickel Creek separately independently like share that with artists that I work with, this whole thing, like, you gotta keep releasing stuff, you gotta keep feeding the algorithm, it's like, the whole idea of like, fast fashion has hit the music industry, and there is something to be said about longevity, all your friends that you guys invite For Watkin's family hour, imagine like, Tench playing on stuff that's just trying to get viral on TikTok.
or whatever it is, there is so much value in longevity and art that lasts. integrity and grounded in like the why and the what am I, making this for?
[00:44:33] Sean: I the benefit of, becoming established before TikTok, so it
[00:44:37] Aaron: Totally.
[00:44:37] Sara: that. Like, I don't, I don't know what that looks like for kids these days, but.
[00:44:41] Sean: I can't imagine that being my only frame of reference to me, that's crazy.like sarah was saying, our first album came out 2000 and was the very tail end of the music industry, you know, that was the very tail end of people Buying music and there being budgets for stuff like music videos and promo and stuff like that.
[00:44:58] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm we got to see a little bit of that, but for me, I find so much value in getting to be around people like Ben Mott, who you mentioned, or Jackson Brown or people, an older generation of musicians. their viewpoint, what they bring to my consciousness is invaluable because I can see.
[00:45:14] Sean: What it used to be like and how they value things and they also take music
Seriously in a way that I feel embarrassed about my own it's like holy to them, it's something that transcends making, money. it's a part of them in a way is so inspiring and you don't see that or feel that from a lot of the younger newer generation. And it definitely exists and you feel it sometimes, but it's not the driving force. just hearing how they talk about music and writing songs and, and, and stuff like that.
it's free of all the modern technology and algorithms and stuff like that. And I cherish their viewpoints so much. I feel really
[00:45:49] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:45:50] Sean: it. Because if I wasn't around it, I wouldn't have any clue about it. I mean, you can watch old
[00:45:54] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:45:54] Sean: watch a documentary about so and so, getting to be around them and feel what they value in music in the gravity that holds is really something I never want to take for granted, you know, and I also know that I feel i'm very privileged to get to be around these people I think you can find it
anybody, you know, an older generations before everything was so second to second no one knows what's going on now things are changing so fast It feels like the, the, walls, you know, the floor is changing and the room is changing all the time and no one knows what they're doing, you know?
[00:46:26] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:46:27] Michaela: Yeah. I'm so curious, from, like, a sociological standpoint of, how younger generations and those of us in our, like, 30s and 40s who grew up with CDs, our relationship to music is inevitably different. It's not our fault. We have to actually like work really, really hard to go against the grain to preserve that kind of, value
that was put on music.
I feel like when you, heard something on the radio once and you were like, Oh my God, my favorite song is on. I've been waiting for it. And you
go to a CD store and spend 15, 20 and you don't know any of the other songs on the record and you go
home and open it and read the lyrics and like, that world does not exist.
our three year old demands to listen to her favorite song and we pull it up immediately. it's such a different, you know, when you have everything right at your fingertips and everything is also experienced through our phone, videos of people. It just, it changes the relationship.
[00:47:24] Sara: It totally does. I feel like, I try not to be like, oh, this way was supreme to that way.
[00:47:29] Michaela: Yeah,
there's pros and cons.
[00:47:31] Sara: but I feel like 30 years if not before, I think there might be a lot of value placed on smaller, to face experiences that are undocumented, I feel like that will be sort of like the new like farm to table kind of
[00:47:47] Sean: Yeah.
[00:47:48] Sara: art where, there is a, the extreme circumstances undocumented and only in this room for this moment not everybody will want it, but I kind of wonder if, if that will become a trend where, a version of like house concerts or our more high end versions of that kind of thing will happen for art
[00:48:05] Sean: Yeah. Sarah,
[00:48:05] Sara: we watch a painter paint or we see, this one thing is not documented and you get to see it in person and having those very human moments that then just live in your memory, I kind of wonder if that will be a, higher value, with the AI stuff, but, I think it is really important To maintain a value on like, scarcity of, things we just can't have all the time.
And maintaining these like special experiences.
[00:48:29] Sean:
what the internet promised, like, we're all going to be more connected. That hasn't really happened on a surface level. It has, like, you can see what people are doing. You
you know, there's certain aspects of it that I guess are beneficial, but it definitely has not connected us in a meaningful way.
to me that makes, experiences of actually being in a room with people playing just the idea of community, actual community, so much more valuable,
[00:48:51] Sara: It's always going to be up to us to make those connections and to keep those connections. And like, that's what a lot of what we've been working on with the Tickle Creek record is. it was written very much with the perspective of the relationships we choose to engage in and the turmoil that's innate in any kind of growth, any kind of connection, there's going to be friction that's not a bad thing.
It's something to, prize and to decide if you want to stay engaged in it, which is
[00:49:16] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:49:17] Sara: with, this career, but also, you know, our romantic relationships, our families, our friendships. choosing, connection, choosing to have very human experiences is always in action and it takes deliberate attention.
And, teaching that to our kids is, is a whole other thing. But, like,
[00:49:37] Sean: Oh, totally.
[00:49:38] Sara: for ourselves continually, you know.
[00:49:40] Sara & Sean: it back to, you know, this is a podcast about parenting,
[00:49:43] Sara: It's,
[00:49:44] Sean: as a musicians, I,
[00:49:45] Sara: That's
[00:49:47] Sean: to say about parenting. Which is, like, when Sarah and I get our kids together, we try to, Sarah's kid is
later this year, turning 7. Mine is almost 3. so there's an age difference, and they love hanging out, we love getting together. we want them to feel, much like siblings as possible. but when we do get them together of the age difference, there's definitely, it's like friction and little arguments that happened and it's, interesting kind of like moving from the, posture of like, Oh, we need to stop this and solve it to like actually letting it play out and watching it play out, to a point and realizing that that's where like actual.
and growth happens
[00:50:22] Sara & Sean: Yeah. Mm
[00:50:24] Sean: figure it out and just standing back and letting him figure it out. so funny. Cause it's, the opposite of what my instinct in other areas of my life is. You know, my other instinct is. it over, you know, have everyone
[00:50:34] Sara & Sean: hmm.
[00:50:35] Sean: in their not getting along, they're learning stuff they're gonna need the rest of their life, you know?
we spend so much time avoiding friction in relationships.
[00:50:43] Sara & Sean: if you lean into
One
[00:50:44] Sean: and you can really find a lot of meaningful, you know, growth.
[00:50:48] Sara & Sean: We had Ryan Miller from Guster on here, and he was talking about that in regards to, Creative pursuits and starting new ones diversifying Reaching out and trying new things. He's like I see a lot. That is really similar to all these like tech startups and tech entrepreneurs where like they go out and they try to fail They try to break it they try to see like where that friction is because that's where you learn and that's how you learn how to do things better and how to do things more efficiently and that kind of just really struck a chord with me because it's like I have a fear of failure, but I also love failure, because I inevitably come out on the other side,
[00:51:20] Sean: Yeah.
[00:51:21] Aaron: more, being okay with more, whatever it is.
[00:51:23] Michaela: it's been such an interesting journey so far of that, of like, watching little, toddlers and babies and they can hit each other and pull each other's hair and like, you have to recalibrate because I've, I've learned a lot.
I've watched parents react very strongly and it's like a thing and we can't talk to each other anymore as parents and I've seen other parents who are just very much like this is how they learn. They're learning their boundaries, their physical boundaries, and they recover so fast. little toddlers who are like best friends and get into a fight over a toy.
They're not holding a grudge or then determined we don't want to play together. two seconds later, they're holding hands again. Like, it's, it's like a really good lesson
[00:52:04] Sean: taking it to tour too being on tour and touring in a band made me a much better spouse.
[00:52:10] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm.
[00:52:11] Sara: practice because there's so much of just like having to like be like, well, you're a person, you're
[00:52:18] Sara & Sean: Ha, ha, ha. ha, ha.
[00:52:23] Sara: I'm just gonna sit over here for a minute.
and then like, you know, load in together and do the thing that needs to be done. And I feel like being on tour has really helped me with all other aspects, teaching at music camp, helped me be a mom,
just like, being a support person helps you be a better front person.
and vice versa, being, a better friend teaches you how to be a better spouse and colleague and all that things like everything helps everything. And
it's all connected, man.
It's all connected,
[00:52:50] Sara & Sean: Ha, ha, ha. It is. Ha, ha, ha.
[00:52:52] Sean: just learning roles. you know, we all play different roles and you, can't approach every relationship from the same point of view. So. we step into different roles. I'm a partner, I'm a parent, I'm an artist, I'm a musician. and you step into a different, you're not a different personality, but it's just a different role and you have different responsibilities and, I think they all benefit each other.
[00:53:10] Sara & Sean: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely.
mutually beneficial being a supportive musician, being in somebody's band infinitely informs my ability to be the leader of a band, that's why you a lot of band leaders or front people that can't sing harmony.
[00:53:23] Sean: or, know how to, budget a tour, you
[00:53:26] Michaela: Yep.
[00:53:26] Sara: with their musicians.
[00:53:27] Sean: and
[00:53:27] Michaela: it can empathize with what it is to be a side musician on somebody else's tour and like their time, I think sometimes you can get tunnel vision when you haven't stepped out of your one role.
[00:53:38] Sean: to have zillion skills to do all these things either. Like, I love being with people who assume that I can do more things than I can. when I was on tour with the Decembrists, they were like, cool, can you play this baritone guitar solo on this, single?
[00:53:51] Sara: I can strum guitar, but I've never taken a lead in my life outside of, you know, my living room. And, I love that they were just like, you can do this. Right. And then like the keyboard player got sick and they're like, you can learn those parts, right? And I'm like, no, okay. I guess.
Cause you're saying that I will. I'm sure that I wasn't the best person for the job, but I did it. And I felt, I really was grateful that people trust me into things. And I think that like, even if. someone's listening to this podcast
[00:54:15] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:54:15] Sara: I strum and I sing,
[00:54:16] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm?
[00:54:17] Sara: sing harmony to your friend who's playing, you know, like support them and Glenn Phillips again I remember being on tour with him a long time ago and he was talking to, to Sean and Chris about like how much do you practice the accompaniment versus the lead and our
[00:54:30] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:54:30] Sara: up with were always
[00:54:31] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm?
[00:54:31] Sara: you're going to get many more gigs accompanying people than being featured.
So learn how to do that. And. think that people can do all kinds of work to just play in your house, swap songs with a friend. Practice three songs, practice two songs. Bring your friend over, learn their songs, sing Harmony to it. it again. play all the songs five times.
Learn how to do it better. Like spend a little time, you'll, learn stuff and you'll feel like a stronger musician for it. There are lots of little, things that people can do to add tools to their, skillset. help your friend out with sell merch or help them load in and like plug in their gear.
all these things are ways to, feel like a stronger overall musician. And it'll make you feel more confident
[00:55:13] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:55:15] Sara: in a different
[00:55:15] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:55:16] Aaron: And like you said, it's all connected. You
know. like drums are my first instrument, but like. yes,
I, you know, grew up strumming guitar and playing chords on piano and stuff. But like, as I got more and more into that and started to understand piano and play piano and guitar on records and understand how that fit in the fabric of the song, it made me a better drummer.
Because I understood what those roles were and like what my role as a drummer was. I wasn't trying to play guitar solos on the drums anymore. I was trying to like make a nice bed for that guitar solo to happen or whatever it is.
[00:55:43] Sean: Yeah. if you're not good at All the instruments try them out. put on a record and play bass, try and play bass with a song that you like, for me, bass seems so simple, but like figuring out what, few notes
[00:55:54] Sara & Sean: hmm. Mm
[00:55:55] Sean: the way it is and the power that's in just bass part the
[00:55:59] Sara & Sean: hmm.
[00:55:59] Sean: of people just overlook and assume is. supposed to be that way you hear a good song and you're like, oh, yeah That was the bass would it should always have been that way No, that bass player of the right
[00:56:08] Sara & Sean: Mm
[00:56:08] Sean: so it feels like this is the right thing, you know and then once you kind of realize all of the instruments the parts they play, you can really appreciate and know how to talk to those people, I'm not a good drummer, but I have a drum set and I, you know, during the pandemic played every day and tried to
[00:56:23] Michaela: Totally. Yeah, definitely.
[00:56:24] Sean: it
[00:56:25] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:56:25] Sean: vocabulary when I'm talking to drummers now.
a little bit more, that's really valuable as a musician to just, if you know a little bit about each instrument
and like Sarah was saying,
musicians,
[00:56:34] Aaron: book your own tour, having to book your own flights for your band and all that, this extends into the, business part of the whole deal too. It's like the more you understand, the better understanding you're going to have and the more you're going to be able to find people for your team.
That do things that you need the way that you need it done.
[00:56:49] Michaela: and something that comes up a lot in these conversations and a lot in my peer community of our age group, is really fully realizing like, oh, there's no, Now I'm at a place where I'm never going to have to do these other jobs again.
it doesn't work like that. no matter how much you're able to give to other people, at some point you might be doing every single thing again. And that's not a bad thing. struggling with the idea of like, is that a sign of failure? Or I thought I wouldn't have to do this anymore.
And really understanding, no, this is just the nature of this work. It's really hard to do. For me to understand too.
[00:57:23] Sean: like people like John Prine, who we think of as like, you know, this, god of songwriting and who played to theaters of, to 3000 people most nights, for a long time before his revival, the last, like, decade of his life.
[00:57:38] Sara: he was not playing to that many people.
He was playing to a lot fewer people. his career had slumped a little bit. You know, I think he was playing different venues. He was playing, like, older places. And Dolly Parton, also, in, like, the 90s, she said that she, like, lost money in Europe. people weren't just not coming out to shows
And then she did her bluegrass record as like a, well, maybe they'll like this kind of thing. And that was the beginning of this huge other rise that she had, like,
[00:58:04] Sara & Sean: Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
[00:58:04] Sara: any less of Dolly Parton you know, it's just, she needed to figure out what, she wanted to do and how to connect with
[00:58:11] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:58:11] Sara: and,
[00:58:11] Sara & Sean: also there's trends.
[00:58:13] Sara: At that age, you
[00:58:14] Sean: Also,
[00:58:14] Sara: nine to five anymore.
[00:58:15] Sean: also she could have very well just,
[00:58:17] Sara & Sean: been like, well, I had a good run, time to hang it up.
[00:58:20] Sean: she doesn't need to work but she kept going because she loves it.
[00:58:22] Sara & Sean: Mm-Hmm.
[00:58:23] Sean: that is just so. Inspiring. It's so cool. and what a great example, not everybody that story, that's happened to a ton of people.
Johnny Cash,
[00:58:32] Sara & Sean: Mhm.
[00:58:33] Sean: just like, couldn't play shows. no one wanted him to play shows. And he was just doing like casinos for a few people. you know, and then towards the end of his life made a record that, everyone loved but either
[00:58:44] Sara & Sean: Yeah. Mhm.
[00:58:45] Sean: he would
[00:58:45] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:58:46] Sean: he loved music
[00:58:47] Michaela: Well,
we've definitely taken more than an hour of your time. This has been such a good
conversation.
[00:58:52] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:58:53] Michaela: Thank you guys so much
[00:58:54] Sean: But,
[00:58:56] Michaela: It's definitely like a whole, a whole section of this podcast
and we get that feedback all the time of people being like, even who aren't parents, maybe they want to be parents who like stop us on the street.
And literally that happens like way more with this podcast than music. It's like people being like, are you guys the other 22 hours people? And they'll be like, thank you so much for talking about how to be artists and parents. in our minds, we're like, those two things don't go together.
I heard you talking to Shovels and Rope about it. Like, they were, I'm sure there are many mom threads she's on, but like, I'm on a mom thread with Carrie Ann and a bunch of other moms, touring moms.
[00:59:31] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:59:31] Sara: like, it's,
[00:59:32] Sara & Sean: Yep. Mm-Hmm.
[00:59:33] Sara: to have that feedback of like, this is the pack and play that fits in the condo bunk.
This is the thing that makes a hotel safe. all of these, weird little things, and um,
[00:59:44] Sean: niche, niche stuff.
[00:59:45] Sara: yeah, and I feel like they have indeed, like, mothered us
[00:59:49] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[00:59:49] Aaron: Yeah. late nights at festivals talking to Michael, just about horror stories about being on the road up with a kid. 'cause like McKayla needs to sleep, or Carrie Ann needed to sleep and just like.
[00:59:59] Michaela: Well, they tell the story on the podcast of playing like CBS Saturday morning for the first time and they were up the whole night with their baby beforehand and like just awful
Like, I really enjoy hearing other people's stories and normalizing this and that it's not just like, everybody figure it out on your own and keep it a secret. I'm like, No, I want to know this because I'm not as scared.
And I think, you know, It's possible.
Yeah, it's fun.
[01:00:24] Aaron: crazy.
[01:00:25] Sara: circus and it's, it's kind of amazing. when the girls got, like, the stomach flu on the bus, really nice to have, like, a type A person around who's like, Okay, this is what we do. get the bleach.
We need this. We need, like, Lysol. We need two trash bags. We need a bunch of paper to, like, all the stuff that you're, like, This is for the clean stuff. This is for the dirty stuff. the girls have the dignity to, like, get sick. alternating times so that was, that was helpful.
[01:00:47] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[01:00:48] Sara: one kid sleeping and one kid not.
But like, it's just, it's
[01:00:52] Sara & Sean: Yeah.
[01:00:53] Sara: then you
[01:00:53] Sean: When you say.
[01:00:54] Sara: stage and you're like, hello, here's, here's my song.
[01:00:58] Michaela: it makes that time on stage that much more valued because you're just like, all right, this is my, 90 minutes, 40 minutes, whatever my set time is, and I'm going to enjoy the shit out of this because I'm going back to, what I've gone through to get on this stage is
[01:01:13] Sara & Sean: like, Yeah.
[01:01:14] Sean: Yeah,
[01:01:15] Sara & Sean: This is my break. This is my break. Haha.
[01:01:18] Sean: yeah. I know.
[01:01:21] Sara: definitely.
[01:01:22] Sean: Yeah, this, this is my moment.
[01:01:24] Sara: Yeah, is my break.
or
[01:01:26] Michaela: thank you guys so much. appreciate
[01:01:27] Aaron: it. You guys have a great day.
[01:01:28] Sara: You
[01:01:29] Sean: All right. Bye
[01:01:30] Sara: Bye.