Brandy Clark is a Grammy winning artist and songwriter, who has had her songs recorded by Sheryl Crow, Miranda Lambert, Kacey Musgraves, Billy Currington, Darius Rucker and more, and co-wrote the music for Tony-winning Broadway show Shucked with Shane McAnally. We talk to Brandy about battling self doubt even when it reemerges after you've started seeing success, finding the right community that will validate you and inspire you, her experience with persistence as it took over a decade to have any large career breakthroughs as either a writer or an artist, writing for theater verses a record, being openly gay in the country world, and a whole lot more.
Brandy Clark is a Grammy winning artist and songwriter, who has had her songs recorded by Sheryl Crow, Miranda Lambert, Kacey Musgraves, Billy Currington, Darius Rucker and more, and co-wrote the music for Tony-winning Broadway show Shucked with Shane McNally. We talk to Brandy about battling self doubt even when it reemerges after you've started seeing success, finding the right community that will validate you and inspire you, her experience with persistence as it took over a decade to have any large career breakthroughs as either a writer or an artist, writing for theater verses a record, being openly gay in the country world, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this
[00:00:08] Aaron: week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and this is coming to the end of the second year of our podcast. We're still so happy to be here and happy that you're here with us, and we don't have any plans of stopping, so thank you for continuing to listen.
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[00:01:50] Michaela: And one of the things we really
pride ourselves on for this podcast that we think sets us apart is that we're not music journalists.
We are musicians ourselves. So we think of these more as conversations than straight up interviews where we're sitting around the table sharing some of the really. Honest, vulnerable realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art.
[00:02:12] Aaron: and as we all know, what it is is completely out of our control for the most part. And so what we do is focus on what is within our control and our
circle of influence. And that ends up being our head space, our mindsets. Tools and routines, our creativity in general. And
we've over time boiled that down to the underlying question. You know what? I'm going to take a second because it hasn't been over time.
We knew from the start, we were
going to have the underlying question. What do you do to create sustainability in your life? So you can sustain your creativity. And today we had the honor of asking that question
of Brandy Clark.
[00:02:45] Michaela: Brandy Clark is a Nashville based Grammy winning, award winning, critically acclaimed Tony award winning songwriter, musician, and artist. And she has had her songs cut by people like Sheryl Crow, Miranda Lambert, Casey Musgraves, Billy Currington, Darius Rucker. for me, personally, I was so excited to talk to her because I've been a fan for over 10 years I became a
fan 10 years ago when I got to open a show for her in New York City her story is so I don't want to say singular, but it stands out, especially in kind of the
Nashville pop country world, because it was always talked about that she was in her late thirties when she put out her debut record.
She couldn't get a record deal around town and found an investor and did it on her own and just goes against the grain every step of the
way in a really beautiful way. So we get to dig in to that with Brandy of what that is like, and reaching some serious heights of success and if
that Helps squelch any self doubt along the way
[00:03:45] Aaron: Yeah if you've listened to any of these episodes before you know that Michaela likes to talk to The heart and I like to talk to The head and Brandy meets us in both places so well and so eloquently so without further ado Here is our conversation with Brandy Clark
[00:04:01] Michaela: Thank you for being here with us.
[00:04:02] Brandy: thanks for having
me.
[00:04:04] Michaela: I have always been so interested to talk to you because I feel like, especially when Twelve Stories came out so much of the narrative was about how you were a writer first, like, from press, of consuming the narrative that press put forward and that, You couldn't get a record deal around Nashville,
[00:04:22] Brandy: Uh huh,
that's true.
[00:04:24] Michaela: you figured it out on your own or got an investor or just did it yourself.
And also I remember age being such a part of the story. Of like, she's not 20 years old,
[00:04:34] Michaela: so all things that I'm personally very interested in, in like, bucking norms of like, not going through the system, Can you talk a little bit about what that was like? And the reality of for you in that, journey of staying the course and finding other ways to keep going.
[00:04:51] Brandy: I was thinking yesterday, probably my best and worst qualities. I just will not give up. I can really count on maybe one or two fingers the things in life I've quit. Okay. I just have a real hard time giving up and sometimes I think that's a really good thing And sometimes I think it's not a good thing because I I know a lot of people I work with That can quit things real easy that are real successful because when something doesn't work, they're like, okay Let's cut bait and move on to the next thing that's not a gift I have but it is why I think my 12 stories record came out because at the time I made 12 stories.
I think I was 35 and I at that point was
really I thought I had completely let go of making my own
records I was at a publishing company that gave us some money if they thought we had any potential as an artist they gave me some of that money and I made an ep I do remember that
so I'm clearly had some want of being an artist
left in me.
I just didn't realize how deep it
was. And then I was, writing songs, singing my own demos, for the most
part. And Emily Marchbanks, who at the
time worked at Fitzgerald Hartley, heard some of my stuff through Cindy Foreman, who was this publisher who I didn't work with,
but I've always loved. I work with Cindy now, but I did then.
Emily approached me about
making a record. And at first I thought she wasn't
serious. her enthusiasm for my music was so big. I just didn't know anyone could feel that passionate about it. but she did. And so her and, uh, another manager there, Terry Elam, actually paid for me to make my first record with Dave Brainerd.
Terry covered the initial costs so that we could get in the studio and record those 12 songs. so then, you know, I was all in, I was dreaming it. And then they started to pitch it around town and it just didn't get much traction. I do remember I met with all the labels and there were very few, just flat out passes.
Like, Nah, we don't want to do this, most of them were like, I love it, but I don't know what to do with it. I remember we got really close with rounder, which is
not a Nashville label or it wasn't
then, And the company got bought if I'm not mistaken, but
I went and did
my showcase for them right after I had done an interview that
ended up leading to me being one of the writers of the musical Shuck. So I always associate that with
rounder. But then what happened was we were just, What are we going to do? And I
remember being pretty devastated and thinking I don't even know if we should put it out,
you know, and then I thought, no, you know what, we've worked
too hard on it. And I remember I emailed Emily and said, I'll
go forward if you will.
And that
should have just made her day. think she was in Ireland at the time. And then,
A guy named Jim Burnett
heard my record through a friend of mine,
Scott Kernaghan. And at the time Scott was managing, I think Charlie Worsham and Scott saw me
play at a little Christmas party at Leslie Graham's house, who
also became. A massive player for me in my
career, but Jim Burnett heard my record. And I remember Emily and I met with him at the old Nashville near music row, and he said he wanted to do it. And so we were like, sure. And it was like a page and a half contract. an easy, fair contract. And he just said.
I don't want to stand in the way of a better or bigger opportunity comes your way. I'll
get out of the way. And he did
eventually when, when Warner LA approached me, Jim made it really easy to do that deal. So
[00:08:13] Aaron: That's amazing.
[00:08:14] Brandy: yeah, he's an angel, honestly. all these people are that I'm, talking about without any of them, it wouldn't have happened.
So basically with Jim, what we had was. The money for a publicist and so he was using surefire media at the time. My person there was Jackie Marushka and She worked really hard her and Emily both to get great press on the record because we didn't have the means to go after terrestrial radio now X Sirius XM played stripes.
It was a highway find back when John Marks was there that did a lot for the record but it was that early press that really drove it I got things like Letterman and and it just started to happen and all the things that had At least felt like they were against me like the fact that I was not 20 the fact that I was openly gay The fact that my music was left of where the mainstream was, all of that sort of became for me as the record started to roll out.
[00:09:12] Michaela: That's amazing.
And I feel like your, story is so cool
Because of also the narrative around like mainstream country music of especially the last like 10, 20 years of you have to fit a certain
mold. It's so much harder for a woman.
It's so much harder if you're just not straight white guy. so it's Oh. It's amazing just that happened for you and that it was embraced. how has that been like personally, emotionally navigating operating in that world with all the things that, you said were seemingly against you but then worked in your favor because you were strong in who you are and being open with who you are?
[00:09:52] Brandy: Something that got said to me actually by my manager, Gail Gilman, I think about it a lot because there was a time where I was really disappointed that I didn't fit in. And I just said, I don't know where I fit. And all this, cause I grew up loving country music, wanting to be in country music.
Wanting my music on country radio, cause that's where I discovered so many great artists. And I said, I just don't know where I fit in. And she said, you don't fit in. You stand out. That really changed it for me. It's funny how like one thing can change it. And that did. And I didn't ever want to fit in again after I heard that.
[00:10:30] Aaron: Yeah, I love how that flips the script and it flips the power dynamic from this thing where you're underwater to you are the boat, you know, you are floating and that's really beautiful.
[00:10:39] Michaela: Well, And It takes like your own personal. growth and relationship to that because the business side of music continually tells you, what you heard from the labels of well, we don't know what to do with this.
I always
remind myself and others about this, the greatest artists that so many of us admire are the ones who stand
out, who Maybe for a long time,
the marketing machine or
A& R people didn't know what to do with them because they didn't fit easily into a
box or a genre but those are the
artists. That I love, the ones who try different things and explore and are singular and not just, oh, that fits into this box and that marketing plan is really easy to come up with so I love that was a turning point for you of okay, I don't need to fit in. Yeah.
[00:11:28] Brandy: I really think, most of the artists that we all, you know, work with Admire and, are influenced by I think most of them probably fit in. They stood out
[00:11:37] Michaela: When you first moved to.
Nashville, had you wanted to be an artist originally?
[00:11:42] Brandy: yeah. Yeah. originally came to Nashville. I was 21. Definitely Wanted to be an artist. And i'm glad you know because I don't know if I would have moved here I don't think I knew enough yet about the business of songwriting that that would have moved me It probably would have because I was so into The music business, but I always say when I moved here I was like 80 artist 20 songwriter
And then those things switched, Over time, I feel like now I'm, 50.
I think there's no artistry for me without songwriting, but my own artistry also drives a lot of the songs that I write now there was a time when what
drove me was trying to
write songs to get recorded in the market. And so that wasn't, my own artistry wasn't driving me.
Now I always enjoyed that.
And I don't think that's
a second place, by the way, either. have so many friends that's the path they've taken. And I'm envious of the songs they write. So I could never say it was a second place. It's just a different, race, I guess.
[00:12:43] Aaron: according to the research that we did before our conversation, you were in town for over a decade before you had the kind of any big cuts come through as a, as a writer or anything like that, right? What was that?
Like?
[00:12:55] Brandy: Well, I mean there were ups and downs in it, when I first moved to town I definitely thought I was a much better songwriter than I was And that's also lucky because had I known What an infantile songwriter I was I might have thought I need to keep working and then i'll move there in a couple years and I think the only way to really Get better is to be around people who are better and work at that every day And that's what I did and oh, you know along the way.
I had a lot of almost I mean there's steps in it, you know like I was in town five years before I got a publishing deal and that felt like This massive thing and it was a massive thing and then things have changed so much. But back then you know, you would do demo sessions.
So then the next big thing was to write enough good songs that your publisher would pay for a demo session. And then it was about getting a song on hold, which for anybody who doesn't know what that is, it's where an artist. Asks you to not play the song for anyone else that they're going to hold it and decide if they're going to record it the next step was to get songs recorded and I did that pretty quickly into having a publishing deal I was getting songs recorded they were just getting recorded on Artists that got dropped from labels Projects that didn't come out all those things, you know, for me, a lot lined up all at once right around the time that I got approached about making.
I had my first hits on the radio as a songwriter. it was like all the fireworks were going off at once, but I had been
working lighting, all those fuses for a long time.
[00:14:26] Aaron: Yeah. One thing I really enjoyed about our conversation with Lori was Keeping your eye out for these little subtle signposts along the way they might not be big successes or big disappoints or anything But like the little signpost is okay, I'm on the right path did you feel like you kind of had that experience through this decade before things really
[00:14:43] Brandy: Yeah.
And I was around people speaking of Lori. One of my first co writers was Liz Rose and Liz I wrote with her and Martin Armour a lot and they started to have a lot of success. And I remember thinking, okay well, it's all around me. If they're having success, eventually I'm going to have success.
You know, I'm seeing this happen for these people that
I get the opportunity to work with. So yeah, that was
definitely a signpost. Just, people in town knowing my songs
approaching me about different
songs. That was a signpost, you know, like going into a publishing company and having a
publisher.
I didn't work with say, oh my god I heard that song you wrote hold my hand Those were all like hats on the
back and okay, I'm doing the right thing now There were times I will say during
that 15 years where
I would get discouraged and would think am I doing the right thing? I would
always say, should I sell real estate? I don't know why I think I would be good at
selling real estate, but that was what
I would always say, like, maybe I, should sell real estate. I don't know that I'd be great at that. So I don't know where I would go to that, but probably cause I saw signs in yards.
I don't know but, anybody who listens to this, who's an
artist or writer.
I did have a lot of self doubt And I think most songwriters and artists do.
[00:15:56] Michaela: how has that evolved? Because that's another one of the things that I love to hear about is Has success changed that for you? do you still grapple with times where you question or worry like, is this going to continue? Or what has outside affirmation done to your internal sense.
[00:16:14] Brandy: I think sometimes success makes that worse really do because you know, some people outside affirmation has told you, wow, what you did, we really thought was great. So then you're sitting there thinking, Oh God, that's the best I can do.
What's next, and I know for me, I always have lot of doubt right before I'm starting a new project, which is right now. I've been writing, but really starting to dive into writing for a new record. And that's always, you know, I was talking to Jesse Joe Dillon, who we write a lot of songs and telling her that.
And she said well, you know, B, I'm going to remind you, you always feel like this at this stage.
So I think the reason why it feels like success makes it almost worse is that we all think. Once I am successful, or once I reach this certain spot, I won't feel this way, and then you do and you still do, so it feels worse, I saw an interview on 60 Minutes with the guys in Red Hot Chili Peppers, and they asked one of them, he said something about how he was really highly insecure, and whoever was interviewing said, are all artists that way?
And he said well, all the good ones are. And I think that's true, because anybody that I work with who struggles with that, is typically little bit better, because they're digging a little deeper and harder. Now, I think we all have confidence in different areas, you know. I know artists who are supremely confident on stage, but not so much in a writing room.
So I think it spreads out, I hope nobody's completely insecure or completely confident,
I don't think it makes it better. I think it probably just is about the same, but it feels worse because you've had success. So you think it should go
[00:17:57] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. in my experience and in talking with friends, that self doubt voice can become deafening. are there things that you've found that help you bypass that?
at least quieted enough that you can take action and get back to work.
[00:18:12] Brandy: I think just working, you know, I think if you just dive in and you continue to do the work,
it goes away because your mind's thinking about creating whatever it is instead of, I'm not sure if I can do this.
[00:18:25] Michaela: Well,
I think that's also where it comes in balancing, like the creative work with the business outcomes if you've gotten success from a song you wrote, and then you're trying to recreate that maybe artistically and Creatively, you do feel like you're able to craft a song just as well, but there's all these other factors that maybe it doesn't, perform the same way.
And even like we had Gretchen Peters on here and she talked about when she wrote Independence Day, how publishers and people were like, okay, do that again a million times over. And Gretchen talked about how she was like, I knew emotionally, I couldn't. that was a once in a lifetime song that I was lucky that I, was able to craft, and like, it's two different compartments, if that makes sense, the way that I'm thinking about it in my head,
I think you're buddies with Mary Chapin Carpenter And she was on here and it's a quote I go back to all the time of we were just like, your multi platinum selling Records and 18 Grammy NPA nations didn't cure you of self-doubt.
And she was just like, no , no way
[00:19:28] Brandy: Yeah. You just mentioned two massive influences for me, Gretchen Peters and Mary Chapin. And I think what Gretchen said is so true, you know, about Independence Day being a once in a lifetime song. And she was smart enough to see that and not try to replicate it because then you just get paler versions
of it. Yeah. And I've done that now. I haven't released those songs, but I have definitely done that because you do think that worked and that moved people. So I'm going to try to do something
like that again, but it never does it because it's not
inspired. those really great pieces of art, whether it's some designated.
No,
that's nice. A painting or music. It's really inspired
and the
other days
you're just practicing for when you get that inspired
moment, but
You can't copy inspiration. I
You can make copies of it like a record or, photocopy a painting, I mean, you can do it again, but with a different idea, a different moment of inspiration. Somebody said to me early on in my record making career they challenged me to never make the same record twice Maybe you should always work with a different producer and, that kind of talk.
And I really worked hard to not do that, for every record to be different. And it's hard because I really think as beings, we have a song or two in us that's really ours. And then the rest of it is with collaboration and. Outside influences, but you have to be really cognizant of it and there are artists that I see Who I feel like are always striving to make great music and do something different Like keith urban is a good example he's always taking chances and I saw an interview with him recently where he Said that he had made a record and he just scrapped it because he started to play it for people And they were just lukewarm on it And I thought man that is really inspiring to me because he's At a level where he could do whatever he wants and be on autopilot, but he chooses not to I think it's because he's a true artist and I strive for that myself.
Gretchen peter is a great example strives for that. Mary Chapin definitely strives for that. Dwight yocum somebody i've worked with, you know, I remember he told me one time I asked him what his favorite album was that he had Recorded and he said it's always the last one You Man, that's a great way to be. That's such an amazing way to feel about your art. And you can only feel like that. I think if you're really, truly inspired and you're, what you're putting out is a representation of where you are right now.
[00:21:58] Michaela: Yeah. And again, really being centered in the work of the art rather than the result. some of us think it's fun and some of us hate it, of like the promotion and, performing and award shows and all those things, but like if that is like attached to the feeling around an album or the songs you're making, I think trying to like separate them is part of the goal and why it makes each new and current project more interesting and fun for an artist if they're really present in the actual work and not the outside career stuff.
[00:22:32] Brandy: That gets harder. Also, I think the album that you're the most present for is your first Because you've never done it
before and I
always try to figure out how to get back to that first time feeling This last album was the closest I've come to that and it was because the making of it was so different
and did take me back to, when I
first started out, but I do
think if you can separate, yourself from accolades or from the outcome
of your music.
All you can control is what you create. You can't control how it's received. The way it's marketed, you know, you just can't control that stuff. And that's hard because you do get tied up in it. But that's how I always know too, that something is great. At least great for me is if, when I'm creating it, I'm not thinking about those things.
I'm just thinking about getting the emotion of it out.
[00:23:23] Aaron: yeah, I'm interested because I used to spend years on the road and now. I produce records and we're here in my studio and so I'm a big fan and have a lot of interest in creating situations and environments that then create the headspace or the inspiration to make something special.
So, I'm wondering with this recent record where you said you were the closest to that first time feeling, did you approach it in a new way intentionally to kind of have that on edge, new feeling or was that just happenstance?
[00:23:52] Brandy: I guess I did approach it that way in that I chose to work with Brandi Carlisle.
[00:23:57] Aaron: Mm hmm.
[00:23:58] Brandy: Had approached me about making a record and she said, I see it as your return to the Northwest. And that really pulled me in because that's where I started, this is where I grew up and. I didn't know what her process would be like, but it was very different from producers I had worked with in the past.
It was all live trying to get everybody to get the best take they could together. Not a lot of overdubs. So that was different, and I really enjoyed it. It kept everybody, myself, mostly on our toes. And it was really more about feel than about anything technical.
And, that's always good to be reminded of. I mean, She said something to me in the process of picking the songs that took me back to the beginning. And that I asked her, I always give her a producer, a handful of songs, usually like 18 to 24 songs. That have been whittled down from what I've been writing and also from my catalog and Then I let them choose The last 10 or 12 now, there's always a few in there that i'm gonna fight for it They don't choose them.
But by that point i'm pretty happy with the list And I loved her choices and I was surprised by some of them and I asked her, you know Why she chose what she chose and she said they were all great songs You
But I chose the ones when I listened to them, I felt like you had written them in your
bedroom and not a
writing room. that was a good reminder to me because it's easy when you're in a
place like Nashville where I think the greatest songwriters in the world are
here. You want to
impress each other. And so
oftentimes you write songs to impress your peers. Versus just trying to get that
emotion out that needs to
have melody and chords next to it.
that took me back to the beginning of why I started to write songs. so it was all sort of journey back. wasn't a lot of overthinking in the process of recording this record. that was different for me. it was just really live and raw.
[00:25:53] Michaela: Did you guys record in Washington or?
[00:25:55] Brandy: We were going to and then was having some remodeling done. At her studio and it was taking longer. So we ended up recording actually in Malibu, California. At Rick Rubin's Shane Roloff studio. And that was a different vibe. That was a really looking back.
It was way cooler than I even knew it was. While we were doing it, I was like,
oh, yeah, that was such a great vibe,
[00:26:19] Michaela: I'm always curious though about how like location and place informs songs and recording process. And so I'm curious more about her saying. this is your back to the Northwest because I also grew up mostly in Washington state. And it has like the dampness of it and the beauty of the mountains.
It has such a feeling that feels so different than Nashville, obviously and California.
[00:26:44] Brandy: Yeah. I mean, I had never, when she said that, I had never leaned into that. I mean, I had had times of where I'd written songs about small towns you know, because they come from Morton, Washington, really small town. But, it really inspired me to write a song like Northwest.
She Smoked in the House, about my grandma. That was all written after Brandy and I had that initial conversation. And I think just saying that, like it's your return to the Northwest, really just pulled me in. And did make me write songs a little differently.
[00:27:14] Aaron: Yeah. Do you find yourself doing that for records where once you
Get a clear picture of what this record could potentially be? Do you find yourself writing to fill out that image? Or is it mostly more often that you have, songs that would be ready for a record and you choose from there?
[00:27:31] Brandy: usually happens is, I'll write a song that feels like it centerpiece of an album. I'll write a song that feels like it could be the centerpiece of an album. That might be like, oh, wow, we could build around that. Last time it was actually a song on there called Up Above the Clouds.
We wrote that song on a retreat I was so moved by it. I thought, oh, I've got something that is worth recording. Now that song ended up, I wouldn't call it the centerpiece of that record once the record was done, but it's a start. And you're like, okay, the time before it was I'll Be the Sad Song.
and that ended up starting the record, and the record was called Your Life is a Record. And then the time before that, it was Big Day in a Small Town. When we wrote that
song, I knew like, oh, this could be a
record. And that song I think was written quite a, ways before
I started that record. But, to answer your question, I'll get that one song and then start filling it in. a lot of times it's songs that
are already written like, oh, okay well, I've always loved that song, but it never made sense for me. Now it
does. and then once I get a vibe, like I mentioned Northwest, Oh, I want a song and maybe there's a song called Northwest.
so it's a both and an and,
But I always
love that feeling when I'm like, Ooh, this could be the centerpiece.
[00:28:41] Aaron: Yeah. I like that idea. It's kind of a song, is
a thesis statement, or it has this kind of gravitational pull to it that you follow. Absolutely.
[00:28:48] Michaela: are you writing all the time, especially as your life has gotten busier with performing and touring, what's your relationship to. Making time to write, is it something that you have to be intentional about? Is it always flowing? Do you have like personal life practices that help you stay connected to that?
[00:29:06] Brandy: I definitely had to be more intentional with it than I once did, I was a five day a week songwriter. I'm not that anymore because of all the things you just said. So I have to be more intentional with it I think there's a good and a bad to that I'm about to be very intentional with it for about the next six months.
that's all I'm going to be doing,
so the closer I am to that, the happier I am
when I'm creating, but I also find I used to feel like I had to write every day.
I don't feel
so much that way anymore because when I don't.
My songs tend to
be better, example like last
week.
I wrote a
song for a project. For a documentary and I had been thinking about that song for a long time. I was like, what's that? gonna be? And so, you know I watched the bit of the documentary that the people making it had sent me and I sent it to a co writer who I thought Would be Write for it and we got together and we really knocked it out of the
park and I
think okay It's because I really took a lot of time as did he
To prepare for the three or four
hours that we were in the room writing the song and, when you're writing every
day Several hours a day.
I don't think you can do that as easily you tend to, tread
over the same ground, there's also a positive in that, you're keeping your,
tools sharp. When you're not writing every day, your tools maybe aren't as sharp, but when you do sit down to write, I think you are more intentional.
And for me if I know I have less time I waste less time when I was a five day a week songwriter if i'm being really honest a couple of those days a week were usually wasted talking,
Songwriters get in a room and you just talk for hours and you're like, oh, let's rebook.
We'll do it again And I think all of that is beneficial. I'm just at a spot in my life Where I don't have time to do that, I might have two or three days a week to write versus So I can't spend those
days talking. also, you know, in COVID, when we started to zoom right, I really learned.
Oh, wow. When you zoom, you just get right to it.
that was positive too. I still do zoom rights, with people that I'm not in the same city as. But you have to be more intentional. I find when I'm getting
into a season of writing, the more I read, the better my writing is and just fill my well
with, other things, be it TV shows or podcasts, I need to stay in language, I guess is the thing there.
[00:31:34] Michaela: I like hearing you say season of writing
like especially moving to Nashville I wasn't gonna pursue being a songwriter like on music row but we lived in New York City for a long time before we moved here and then I would dip my toe in it and be like is this something I could do and and And I would always
get the information about well, you have to be writing every day.
And I thought something was really wrong with
me for a long time that I was like, I don't think I can do that. I don't think it's in my nature. And the older I've gotten, the more I've come to understand like, okay, if your goal is to write to the market and, you need a lot
of songs to be pitching like, absolutely, but if you have different goals,
it's okay to kind of follow your natural rhythm as a writer, and I've found I'm much more of a seasonal writer
Gathering information, like you said, bringing stuff in and then okay, next six months, I'm going to focus on writing.
And now I'm
able to excavate in a way. And it releases this pressure and
guilt for the time. When you're not writing that I think makes it all more enjoyable and more accessible.
[00:32:36] Brandy: I think we're all
different and I don't know
Even people I know and I've been in that groove where you're writing every day You still have seasons
in that like when you look back on your songs for me I'll be like, oh wow, isn't that crazy the month of august that year? I wrote three really great songs and i'll and i'll look back in well there in june and july I was building towards that I was writing songs that were almost, hitting the mark but weren't quite
I do think somebody can write five days a week, two
appointments a day, they still are going to hit seasons that are more fruitful.
[00:33:10] Aaron: Yeah, not to get
like super insider baseball here But I'm interested in what percentage of songs that you
start that you finish and then pass that what percentage of those Actually see the light of day whether it's on your
record or on somebody else's record
[00:33:24] Brandy: I finish most things I start. And some things I start
by myself and I can't crack them and so I'll take the idea into a co, right? I would say the percentage that sees the light of day, either with me or anybody else, is probably
about 10%.
[00:33:37] Michaela: Mm hmm. That's also nice to hear. Yeah.
know you said keep language accessible and like, really reading and all that stuff. Is there anything else that you feel like you've found is essential to like, staying grounded in yourself, especially when your schedule's super busy on the road versus at home, like, how you keep Sane or grounded and yourself.
[00:34:00] Brandy: Working out really helps me.
Staying off social media.
when I'm in a period of time where I
really want to be creative I'll
take the, social media apps off my phone
If i'm going to go down a rabbit hole, it needs to be in a book or in a movie or something
not on social media Something where I might get
something from it.
So those are pretty big working out staying off social media. Doing other creative things, you know, I recently this is such a weird thing, but i've recently gotten into making these old school friendship bracelets with like embroidery thread and making my mind figure out those patterns is big and a lot of times something like that when i'm stuck it'll get me unstuck because i'm focusing on something other than
Finishing that song.
[00:34:44] Michaela: I love that social media do you feel like it's Like a time sucker, but also does it? impact your mindset or mental state?
[00:34:53] Brandy: Oh, yeah. I
mean for me, it's mostly big time suck But if I
go to the right or the wrong places It can be mentally really debilitating. You know, Somebody said a long time ago, like
with social media, you're comparing your practice footage to somebody else's highlight
I just don't think that's good for any of us.
it's for an addictive brain and we all,
I think, have those. And so just scrolling and scrolling just does me no
good.
[00:35:18] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:35:18] Aaron: One thing that I've been focusing on lately because I've, there's been periods in my life where I've been off of social media for a year and a half at a time just to really just get away and clear that the thing that's been resonating with me lately and I, I've been grateful that I haven't really been in the kind of mental spiral rabbit hole of social media.
I also don't post a lot, but noticed that throughout the day, throughout the week, there's this voice in the back of my head Oh, you need to make a post or you need to do this, or, you know, you need to stay top of mind and all of that. And so. I'm not physically interacting with social media, but it's still occupying part of my brain if I cut that avenue off, that's not there.
It's just not an option and it can, be a little bit more present.
[00:35:56] Michaela: Yeah, it by nature like makes us center ourselves a lot. not center ourselves in a positive way, center ourselves in the story of I need to be remembered. So I need to be posting it makes me think about myself too
much.
[00:36:10] Brandy: Yeah, it's, it's a really narcissistic really wise
person told me that the only other place where we talk
about followers are cult leaders. So basically it's turning everyone into a cult leader. It's not healthy and I'm on it. I sound like a hypocrite, but. It's breeding just narcissism.
[00:36:28] Michaela: Yeah, or doom last night. We have a three year old and I was so tired last night. I put her to bed and then I'm like, Oh, I should read a book. And all of a sudden an hour goes by and I'm still on my phone and I start feeling physically so anxious because I was just consuming election stuff.
And I'm like, what is this actually doing? I'm not more informed in a way that's helping me or engaged. Yeah. this morning I was telling Aaron about it and Aaron was like, okay, what are you going to do? Are you going to sign up for phone banking this week? how are we going to turn this into something?
[00:36:59] Brandy: that's a good place to put that
[00:37:01] Michaela: Yeah. Instead
So you're heading into making a new record right now, you said?
[00:37:05] Brandy: Writing it, once I get the songs and feel really good about that then it'll head into the making of it mean my anr guy
says I think you're closer than you think I don't think i'm that close But I think after six months, I might be,
so that's exciting to me.
[00:37:19] Michaela: for six months, you're not going to play shows or anything and it's going to be just writing?
[00:37:23] Brandy: I mean,
I have a few like, I'm playing Girls Just Wanna
in Mexico and, And I'm doing an ACL taping with the Indigo Girls.
But other than that, I'll just be writing.
[00:37:33] Aaron: Is that a normal practice for you? Do you kind of have set time and create your own, big tent writing camp thing?
[00:37:39] Brandy: Yeah, it's just been a while since I haven't been on the road. so it's really nice to think about like, okay for the next six months, I can just write songs and just get in the studio and see what works and explore. And, another thing I love to do that inspires me sometimes is to get a new instrument. That has maybe some different sounds like I'm toying around with maybe doing more 12 string stuff and that would inspire this different sound and that inspires different songs believe that guitars have songs in them. those sorts of things.
love diving into all that.
[00:38:12] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:38:13] Michaela: How has it been, because I know you wrote Schucked with your longtime collaborator
Shane McAnally. how is that like writing for a show rather than even writing for you know Trying to pitch to other artists or your own project writing in this musical endeavor.
[00:38:29] Brandy: it was really great
and I would suggest it to any songwriters who want to do something a little different. The biggest challenge
is, you know, you're telling a story over 2. 5 hours versus 2. 5 to 4 minutes. And so you have to tell little bits of the story with longer like, you have to spend a longer time maybe on a certain motion.
Our opening number is 7 minutes long. and it's a celebration of corn.
So we have to find all these ways to
talk about corn. And so that's a
massive challenge really fun one. the,
part that's easier is nothing's off limits. you're telling this story and so you just tell it
however the best way is to tell it.
You don't have to worry about, oh, is that going to get played?
You're just telling your story.
[00:39:13] Michaela: Cool. Yeah,
[00:39:14] Aaron: I can imagine Did that
ripple into your, artist
writing when you're, getting back to writing three and a half minute songs?
[00:39:22] Brandy: the biggest thing it's done for me artistically is it's given me the confidence that I can write records because, with a musical, you're sitting down and you're like, okay, we need however many songs to
tell this story,
Eight, let's say 18. And we did it it took us 10 years.
It takes most
people five to
20 years to write a musical. So I know I can do a big project.
That's one thing it really
gave me. And it probably makes me a little more fearless in the kinds of songs I'll
write on my own records, because I, really see
Oh, people want the truth.
[00:39:56] Brandy: so let's write that, versus
overthinking too much of what
people want to hear.
[00:40:01] Michaela: Yeah. I'm super
curious how that especially being a music row, mainstream Nashville songwriter and then writing your
own artist story,
has that been something you've had to like, continuously overcome, or did you have any fear, especially being an openly gay woman
and I'm not inside the pop country music world, so I'm always curious kind of the outside image
is that it is very conservative has that been on your mind, or contributed to any apprehension,
Or nervousness, and have you increasingly been emboldened as you've built your confidence over time?
[00:40:35] Brandy: first, I
just thought there was no way that I could be an artist and be openly gay, and I wasn't going to go
back into the closet. I mean, just can't. at first, yes, I thought it was either or.
I was lucky enough that there were people who just believed great music should win and those people helped me make
my first record and have continued to help me make records I got really lucky
that way and it's not even
anything I think about anymore but there was a time where it kept me up at night. Not so much once I made a record but before
that because I just thought You that's not an
option for me and i'm so glad
that I did make a record because not only did it change my life, but I think it changed lives of people coming, in the future Who are listening to my music because I know for me I remember Katie Lang and thinking, man, she's fantastic.
And, oh, she's also gay. And so I think there are a lot more of those examples now than there were then,
The world has changed. And thank God,
Because think about thoughts I had of how that would keep me from a career. I hope somebody who's 21. and gay and moving to Nashville today doesn't have the same inner turmoil that I did.
if me being in the world making music can help that, then I'm pretty happy about that.
[00:41:53] Michaela: Yeah. It's. I don't even want to say easy to forget because it depends on what kind of like bubble you're living in, but you know, Shelly Wright's story I've gotten to know Shelly over the years and I grew up watching her on CMT and like thinking she was incredible and then as an adult now learning more about her experience of coming out and how groundbreaking that was.
But then even in recent years, like the
backlash for the song Girl Crush, it's
still, so unfortunate that it's
still out there. And so like, you said, having people who are just openly themselves,
And making music, I feel like it's very cliched, but representation really matters.
It's really important to have all these examples of there's a million ways to be in this world and this life and be artists and experience success and songwriters and storytellers are
the way that we get to experience that and learn about each other that I think is why we do what we do and what's so beautiful about this work.
[00:42:52] Brandy: There's a guy who just put a record out last Friday. I haven't heard all of it, but what I've heard of it, it's amazing, fancy hay good.
And I think about the kind of music he's making. it's actually save a lot of lives, I think.
[00:43:05] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, just being able to, embody and demonstrate that like, mean this with the most love and the most sensitivity, but like, my story is valid. again, I'm a cisgendered white male, I understand, historically where, you know, I, I am in history, but, the attention and the care and the openness that is being shown to the community, it inherently has that title with it. And so it inherently has that, next to, oh, it's an LGBTQ story. It's an LGBTQ, you path, but like removing that to me shows the quality. It's just a story. You know, it's a beautiful story.
It's a moving story. And, I see what you have done and what fancy is doing and all of these people coming out, bringing that to the front and just, the general public, just being able to embrace these stories and relate to these stories is just like a beautiful thing for me to be able to.
observe and you know, just to share some gratitude with you, I've made two records myself in here this year with artists where you and your story and your output has been a reference for the record. So I can say firsthand that you are definitely making an impact on young artists feeling
[00:44:10] Michaela: more confident to share their own stories.
[00:44:12] Brandy: that fills my heart up. So thank you for telling me that.
[00:44:15] Michaela: That feels like a beautiful way to bring this to a close. we've done like 80 some episodes and I've never asked this of anyone, but I'm just super curious, if there was something that you wish you had known before.
As a younger artist at this point,
[00:44:31] Brandy: one thing that somebody shared with me that I wish I, would have gotten to sooner is Don't stay in any room where you don't feel like a genius, because a lot of times you get put in rooms, be it as a writer or an artist where you don't feel real seen, or like the other people in the room don't love what you do.
I saw this thing on social media, actually, and it was talking about a bottle of water and how a bottle of water at the grocery store is 1 and at the airport, it's 6. And it said, maybe. it's not that you're not worth so much. Maybe you're sitting in the wrong spot. And I think that's really true.
If you believe in yourself artistically and other people aren't validating that for you, maybe you need to move. I don't mean move towns. I mean that you might need to do that, but maybe get into a different circle. Definitely if you're co writing, don't try to make that work, find the people that make you feel.
Like a genius. That's really the trick because you got to feel at your best to create your best work is what I really feel and what i've experienced in my own life.
[00:45:36] Aaron: I love that.
[00:45:37] Michaela: Beautiful.
[00:45:38] Aaron: Absolutely.
Yeah. Well, thank you for taking the time this morning to sit down with us.
[00:45:42] Brandy: Yeah, thank you guys.
[00:45:43] Michaela: Bye
[00:45:44] Brandy: Bye