Courtney Hartman is a singer-songwriter and guitarist, formerly of the Grammy nominated bluegrass band Della Mae who now performs and releases solo records featuring collaborations with Bill Frisell, Anais Mitchell, Sam Amidon and an entire record of duets with a past guest of ours, Robert Ellis. We talk with Courtney about her very intentional regrounding and reaffirmation of her commitment to make music her career, learning to love the little things in life and creativity, showing up in love no matter the season, inspiration in routine, releasing the ego from craving overly-complex music, constantly changing perspectives, and a whole lot more.
Courtney Hartman is a singer-songwriter and guitarist, formerly of the Grammy nominated bluegrass band Della Mae who now performs and releases solo records featuring collaborations with Bill Frisell, Anais Mitchell, Sam Amidon and an entire record of duets with a past guest of ours, Robert Ellis. We talk with Courtney about her very intentional regrounding and reaffirmation of her commitment to make music her career, learning to love the little things in life and creativity, showing up in love no matter the season, inspiration in routine, releasing the ego from craving overly-complex music, constantly changing perspectives, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are still getting rolling in our third year of these conversations. And this week we're featuring a conversation with Courtney Hartman.
Aaron: Courtney is a Grammy nominated songwriter and guitarist.
She was a longtime member of the band, Della May, and has gone on to release, solo records that have collaborations with Bill Frizzell and an as Mitchell and Sam Amon. And she put out a record, of John Hartford songs with another former guest on the show, Robert Robert Ellis.
Michaela: Courtney is originally from Colorado. Grew up in a very large family, musical family, and continued on the musical route. Moving to the east coast, going to music school. Lots of things we have in common [00:01:00] in that regard.
a lot of her story recently has been informed by a coming home of sorts, moving back west and then building a new life in the Midwest.
Aaron: you know, Having that touch point of being, I guess music school kids, we had a really cool Conversation about effort and surrender. So, you know, Like the ego that is tied up around like technical proficiency and virtuosity versus, putting effort into serving the song and really embodying the emotion and the message of the song and how that's like a weird paradox of effort and surrender at the same time.
Michaela: When we talk about containing multitudes in ourselves, our ever evolving identities as career musicians, as well as whole human beings, and letting that inform how we move through life and the courage it takes to step away and take time away and reevaluate, life choices as career musicians.
Aaron: Yeah, a lot of talk about identity, about ego, about grounding, like McKayla said, so I. [00:02:00] As always, there are topics in this conversation that come from suggestions from our Patreon community. It's because everybody over there gets some advance notice of who our upcoming guests are going to be and the opportunity to submit questions that they would like these guests to answer.
There's also a whole bunch of other offerings over there, and it's the sole way that we support this show financially. So if that intrigues you at all, there's a link below in the show note.
Michaela: And if you're a visual person, all of these conversations, past and current are available on YouTube.
but without further ado, here is our conversation with Courtney Hartman.
Courtney: I actually had a dream last night that we were doing a live recording session together.
Michaela: Ooh,
Aaron: cool.
Michaela: That sounds so nice.
Courtney: yeah, we actually do get to hang out,
Aaron: Yeah, exactly.
We see, we see more friends this way than
Courtney: in real life these days, honestly. totally. And have like actual conversation where you can pay attention.
Aaron: yeah, it's nice.
Michaela: Yeah. There's no kid In the room and it's not allowed [00:03:00] bar. Yeah.
So it's, nice.
Courtney: Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah. Imagine if we did that in real life. Just scheduled an hour to just sit, talk like not at a coffee shop. Just like come and, sit and we're gonna put the
Aaron: kid away and there's gonna Be no kid and there's gonna be no, we're gonna put the kid away.
Courtney: Put the kid away. Put the phone away.
Aaron: All of that. And like just be present.
Michaela: That is like,
some intention that I think we need in our lives that maybe we should do not under the guise of a podcast. I mean that kind Of is what the podcast,
Aaron: it's the gu of it
Michaela: is for us. It's like a way to connect and have real conversations sometimes
with people we've known a really long time and sometimes with complete strangers, but then we
come away
Having never met in person, but feeling like we know each other because we actually have like in depth conversations about life.
Courtney: Right. With intentional questions. And
Aaron: Yeah.
Courtney: important piece of it.
Michaela: speaking of all that, thank you for joining us and being willing to uh, give us an hour of your time
yeah, it's a treat. Thank you.
[00:04:00] Yeah. And lots has happened. Lots has happened. Suck. No worries. That's English. I dunno why that's, lots has happened. That sounded so weird. We were actually up later than usual last night because we had a last minute recording session to do, which was so fun and felt like, oh yeah, I love doing this, but also, oh my god, I'm
so tired. Anyways,
Aaron: the producer of everything was in LA so they were, two hours earlier and
wanted to hop on the phone left and right, and I was like, oh. said Mikayla. I was like, do they know that It's like nine o'clock at night? She's like, no, they're in la so it's seven.
It's fine. I was like, no, it's nine o'clock for us though. It's like, do they know our, our reality is
nine o'clock,
Michaela: that I'm nine months pregnant and it's nine o'clock at night and we have a 3-year-old and we wanna go to, I was like, we can't tell them that.
Courtney: Yeah, totally. And we
Michaela: Yeah,
Courtney: have our pajamas on.
Michaela: yeah, yeah, exactly. but a lot has happened and it's so funny also talking about the intentionality of these conversations when it's someone that we've known for a long [00:05:00] time. I go and search you on the internet and I learn all these things that I didn't know about you, even though I've known you for probably a decade at this point, yeah.
Courtney: York, which was now like a long time
Michaela: yeah. yeah. Over 10 years ago. Wow.
Like I had no idea that you are one of 10 children and grew up in a very musical family and had like a
family band.
Courtney: Yep. We did all those things. Traveled around, played at Silver Dollar City. We're homeschooled. So when I say we just got back from family week, it's like the siblings and all the kids now. It's
Michaela: Oh my God.
Courtney: and so chaotic and
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela: That's a lot of people.
Courtney: yeah it's, all I knew growing
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Courtney: doing that. And my parents, I think because there were so many of us and they had seen other families doing things together, they chose for us to learn music as a family,
Courtney: Because it was something we could all do together and we wouldn't be running to, [00:06:00] 15 different soccer practices every
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: that
Michaela: Oh my God. Yeah,
Aaron: yeah,
Courtney: streamline it,
Aaron: yeah.
the way you said that, were your parents musicians already or were they also learning? Cool.
Courtney: they were also learning. Yeah. My mom would take lessons with us. in the spirit of the Suzuki method, but then she continued with other instruments to be able to practice alongside us,
Aaron: Mm.
Courtney: now looking back, I'm like, yeah, that's awesome. What a gift for us to have been able to have that.
Michaela: That's amazing. so you went from music being everything and like playing shows traveling around and then you went to music school and then pretty quickly started touring on your own or with D Ma.
Courtney: Yeah. With dme, there was a, quartet called the Bee Eaters
Michaela: Mm,
Courtney: with a little bit. mostly it was stuff just here and there,
kind of,
In college, and then I joined Della Ma and that was more
Michaela: Full on touring.
And then a big part of your story that's been presented is the fact that you left the [00:07:00] band, left New York and the East Coast and moved back home. and I
remember We saw you out there around this
time, When you felt like you were needing a reset, which I'm always intrigued by this because I'm someone who feels like I've had many times where I've needed a reset and I've never had the courage to do it, to
make like a, big, change and be like, I'm gonna take some time. I kind of think those things and then like grit my teeth and barrel through
Courtney: Looking back at that time, I had known, like in my spirit for a while, I needed to make a shift. And there was a really specific conversation I had with a friend, I was into asking this question to everybody, which I think is probably a good sign that I needed to just be asking myself.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. like, what are you most afraid of right now? That's what I would ask all my friends. And it was in one of those conversations that I realized like I was afraid to, [00:08:00] leave a band situation that I've been in for a long time. I was afraid to leave New York and my community and I was afraid to return home.
Courtney: I think I knew that those were all things that I was gonna be asked to do. Not from somebody, but for me, like from God or, those were the things I was most afraid of.
And I kind of did all of them at one time. It was like all of them happened. And it was a big reset.
It was not an easy season, but so I remember, when I moved back to my family's property, and just working out and the, garden was neglected for a lot of years and I spent so much time weeding and the physical act of weeding that summer. I didn't know anything about gardening.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: these don't seem helpful. So I'd take stuff out that physical act felt like I was taking out the things that were no longer, life giving in my life, or not that they were not good, but they were not what I needed to be [00:09:00] growing. Okay. In that season?
Aaron: taking the mental and the ethereal and making that in Act I love that.
can you tell us about your experience, in that season of after you made the choices, after you made the move, like all of that. I'd love to hear more about that, cause obviously now you have a whole very vibrant thing that you've built
I just.
Courtney: so different from that season.
Aaron: Yeah.
Courtney: like seven years ago,
Aaron: Wow.
Courtney: in my mind, I don't even know where it comes from, but it's every seven years there's like a shift.
Michaela: Hmm.
Courtney: Look at your life in seven year chunks?
Michaela: I haven't,
Aaron: I could, like if I look back, I definitely can see it like that. The first thing that comes to mind, honestly, which is not nearly as eloquent, is that I've heard that allergies work in seven year increments. Where like, every kind of seven years you have different allergy.
sensitivities pop up. Really? Yeah. That's what I've heard.
Michaela: I didn't know that. Yeah. So,
Aaron: like said, not nearly as cool.
Courtney: in with,
Aaron: Yeah, exactly.
Courtney: I just want to hear [00:10:00] you know, going from. Being in a band, you know, And being in New York like, those are
Aaron: Strong identity points, I
guess are the words that come to mind. How was that season of recalibration?
Courtney: Yeah. Of like just regrounding,
Aaron: Yeah.
Courtney: I had a lot of humbling to do, and giving back to my family. And, I was very much at a place where I was like if music is no longer a healing thing in my life, then I need to let it go. And I had just come to that crossroads of like, through some physical hand injuries, but also just my relationship with it.
Just needed to be very open-handed with it. And in that time, practice of rising early in the morning and really just like showing up. if there was a song, then I would be there to it. That was a practice that I started then. And I think I really held to that because I didn't have much else to hold to.
I was [00:11:00] just needing to be open-handed, and follow whatever that was gonna lead to really knowing what it was gonna lead to. so I lived there and I ended up moving into my family's barn to re help rebuild it. That's a longer story, but it was in disarray.
And so spent two years living in there and that coincided with COVI and
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: of that. So all in all, it was like maybe three and a half years.
Aaron: Wow.
Courtney: relocated to Wisconsin.
Aaron: so you basically like put on the table like maybe music as a
career, isn't part of my life anymore, and saw
that as a very real possibility. Liddy,
Courtney: yeah, absolutely.
Aaron: Wow.
Courtney: Yeah.
Michaela: How did,
Courtney: to that place with it.
Michaela: I'm curious about our. Egocentric identity attachment to that.
did You have to address any of that or was that lighter
In your being,
Courtney: Nope, I had to address it.
Michaela: okay.
Courtney: Big time. It kind of [00:12:00] felt like everyone went through that during the pandemic
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: am I without this thing that I am both fed by, but also that I give by.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Um, It's how we, have value or feel valued in the world.
And I think we all kind of experienced that, but in a way I felt like, this is what I did a year and a half ago,
I kind of disappeared for a while and it felt really weird to go into like music festival scenes or anywhere
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Just feel like nobody, I guess
I think that was a healthy, a lot of ego wrapped up in all of it.
Aaron: Mm. Yeah. absolutely. I can only imagine when I think about that, when I think about myself which I do often stepping out of
the music Industry, there's definitely this fear there of, the only way I can relate it to is trying to build something independently in this industry feels so much like pushing a giant boulder up a hill that I feel like if I even.
seriously way. And there has been times where I'm like, I am going to [00:13:00] school. I'm gonna learn this and I'm done. Or like, I'm applying for
jobs. Oh, I've, oh yeah, I've
applied for like, full on jobs. even
just this,
even just this fall, like I've
had, you know, With my business in my career, like the best year of my life.
But like even this fall when I was in the thick of it, I decided that I was going to write the best corporate resume I could possibly write and, and I applied to five jobs a week for a month. All of which this is in
Michaela: the midst of him producing and mixing like multiple records at the same time.
Like he wasn't, I was like, now's the time. I
Aaron: have nothing to lose. I'm gonna show up there. Which is like that he wasn't like without work. That ego confidence, just full, I'm gonna like, I'm gonna go full corporate, but like, as a side hustle. Like I did fully, I did not apply for a job that paid less than $180,000 a year.
I was just like, I have nothing to lose. like my cover letters was like, I have never worked for anybody else. I worked for a coffee shop for like a month. I've been self-employed since I was like 14 years old. That's an asset. Hire [00:14:00] me.
I'm gonna shake up Your company. We're gonna do this. I didn't get any interviews. Shocker. Um, All of that to say, even in that, I wasn't seriously holding the possibility of stepping away from the music industry, you know, it was like, this would be cool if
this happened. I would love on January 1st to know that I'm gonna make $180,000 this year,
to do is just show
and all I have to do is just show up and do what somebody tells me to do.
Wow. Easy. That's it. Just to me, that whole life. don't mean to slight any of our listeners that are in that, but it just sounds so easy and like refreshing to me a little bit. Anyway, I go down this big tangent, but when I really hold the idea of leaving the music industry, like the step that you take, it feels like, and I hear it with people that we've talked to, that building, this is so much like pushing this boulder up the hill, that if I hold that reality fully of stepping away, that like, that boulder is just gonna roll me over, I'm gonna
be stuck In the mud and then I'll never be able to get that boulder back to where it was.
it's such a final decision to me. Which, you know, [00:15:00] obviously was not a final decision
so I'm just wondering what your experience with that was now that you are, making records again and,
Courtney: am sure there's some people who can relate to this, but now I think it's just a continued choice. Continually just asking, you know, as we navigate, how do we do this with a family? How do we do this in a small town in Wisconsin away from parts of the industry that I was more involved in at one point?
How do we do this in a way that's sustainable in life giving? And so there was like that big season of questioning, but now it feels like it comes around like perennially or something
Courtney: moments where you're just like, is this a thing?
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: and then knowing that like, if I know what to say yes to today or for this month or for this year, that's all I really need to know,
even if that's hard to reckon with sometimes.
Absolutely. to me, it sounds freeing or at Least adds a little bit more levity to everything.
Yeah. I would rather see it as freeing than just like [00:16:00] self-doubting.
Aaron: Yeah.
Wow.
Courtney: I do feel a little bit more freedom there.
Michaela: It also feels grounded in the present moment where I think
you're really in the thick of the career track of music. You are always thinking ahead and planning upcoming tours. And that's been a big mind shift for me of like what my brain activity looked like before was just like, write record tour, tour, tour.
Is this year full? Is it full yet?
Well then That's what we gotta do and then next year it's gotta be better and next year's gotta be better. And I've had to continually still work at
like,
that's not what it looks like for me anymore, but. the emotional response to that of one, reconciling that that doesn't mean that I'm failing at it.
And also the little inkling of like, I do miss it, but I also don't want that,
Courtney: Yeah.
Michaela: which is
weird.
Courtney: yeah. Right.
Michaela: Wanting something that you haven't, done [00:17:00] before, that you can't quite see what it looks like.
Courtney: And realizing that you no longer want something that you once wanted,
Which feels a little bit like giving up
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: but also I think it's just moving through life. as things shift raising a little one, you're like, I literally don't know what they're gonna be like in a month.
How am I supposed to
Aaron: Yeah.
Courtney: what the next entire year is gonna look
Michaela: Yeah.
Courtney: There's that kind of very visible, very physical form of life changing and us needing to be malleable and move with it.
But it's so awkward and hard sometimes do that gracefully.
Michaela: Yeah. did it happen slowly or was there a turning point where you decided, okay, I feel reinspired and I wanna make a record. And now also doing it on, your own, doing solo work. I know you have multiple collaborations even within your solo work, but like you were in Della Ma, then you had your duo records with Robert Ellis who we also have had on this [00:18:00] podcast.
And even with your solo records, I mean, we'll get to talking about what your upcoming solo record is, which is all about collaboration. what kind of like turned for you that you. Decided, okay, I wanna go back to this.
Courtney: That's a really good question. there wasn't a clear moment in time for me, but I think it was an accumulation of work. it was like, you know, when you've been given something, think that not everybody feels this way, but I feel like if I've been given something, then part of that cyclical process is to then give it away in order that like, don't always know why we're given something or what it's gonna do for someone else.
That's not our concern.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: in giving it away, you also open up your hands to receive again.
songs came to me at that time and other, other, collaborative relationships. And so it was just kind of saying yes to that. And the way that I ended up recording those was in no way have I wanted to do it.
on the flip side, [00:19:00] I learned so much, and that was, I had lived in the barn for a minute and I ended up just recording in the barn. I didn't ever want to like, try to self engineer project that was not on my bucket list,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: but I learned a lot and it was really empowering.
And I had started that a couple, months or so before everything shut down. So that ball was already rolling and then it was like well, now this is what we are doing.
Michaela: Yeah. Cool. So how did then wanting to, 'cause also there's so many different compartments of this musical life of like
recording and then deciding, now I wanna go back out and share this in physical presence.
Courtney: I don't have a clear answer for that.
I'm not remembering there was like a specific thing. I think it was just like saying yes to what came along.
And so the saying no to things was very clear, and very like, a cut in time.
And then as I began to like find my, creative legs again or something, then it was just a matter of [00:20:00] walking in the direction that I felt led, which was much sparser and different than it had been at any other point. I
Michaela: In what way?
Courtney: just, the amount of touring you know, the amount of that being my whole life
Michaela: Yeah, so playing less often.
Courtney: Yeah.
Aaron: in our experience touring and being in a season of touring or open to touring, occupies space in our lives. Twofold. One is the actual like, act of doing it. And the other space is like the act of booking the shows. Am I gonna book shows planning that? So there's the mindset space and then the actual like calendar space.
Courtney: Yes.
Aaron: did you notice changes in that?
Courtney: I've been thinking about that a lot lately. my husband and I were talking about this exact thing last night. In my mind, the physical or like the mental capacity that it takes to think
Michaela: I.
Courtney: forward this amount of time or to prepare leave home for this amount of time, or even like, do we go and how do [00:21:00] we get there?
That to me feels like it takes a lot more energy now. Like once the thing is decided and you know what you're gonna do, we're gonna get through it.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: there's an amount of just get through it energy that you just
Aaron: Yeah. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Courtney: But I do find that thinking about, routines changing or whatever it is now, it just must come with more responsibility and more of a home
Courtney: And having a little one, that takes a lot more space now in my brain.
I don't really like how much space it
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney: definitely thought like, what if we just don't do this? Can we not do this? I don't know what that looks like. It all feels like a big question mark.
Aaron: I noticed that with Mikayla, and her touring. 'cause I, really don't tour anymore. Most of the tour I do is just like, I go with Mikayla as a dad. I bring our kid
and I'm not playing, I'm just
With her who is playing.
Um,
yeah, exactly. You know, I like to say I, I do all the fun parts of touring, which is like, get up early, drive, help with load in, and [00:22:00] then I go to the hotel at like six 30.
Yeah.
Courtney: Yeah. Totally.
Aaron: Uh,
yeah. I'm not gonna lie. Like, It is kind of fun. We haven't like, you know, I didn't tour with her much this year. Now that our daughter is three and a half,
you know,
we have a life Here and she's able to stay here. and we have a good time and it's fun.
But the lead up to Mikayla leaving our tour, whether we're coming or not. Is almost more disruptive than
Her just being gone. When she's gone. It's like, it's cool.
Michaela: They're fine
Without me, it's, It's more like put on the blinders and like, don't look at it,
Aaron: you know? keep the inertia of day to day life here
Michaela: Well, I think there's more at stake too because before you have a family and a home that you really care about, it's just wide open.
You're like, Yeah, I can do a six week tour and then come home for a week and then go back on on tour. 'cause there's not like people who need me or who will miss me.
There's not the emotional weight of that. Or even if they're coming with me, like all of the extra work of a family for a child.
Like,
Aaron: well, I [00:23:00] also
wanna point out that like everything you just said was in relation to other people. But like to me there was no thought of that.
It's like, I don't need to be home. I want to go see new places. Like, I mean, I still want to go see new places,
but like
that whole, monolith of thinking about other people and thinking about how your
decisions impact other people just wasn't a thing for us.
Courtney: Totally. Yeah. in the way we thought about community, because I don't know about y'all, but, well, our community is fluid and especially living in a town where people tour, that's such a gift.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: have community all over the place. You see People in every six months or
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Courtney: But I didn't actually have community that I was rooted in and giving to.
I don't know if that's a selfish way of living 'cause there's other ways you give, but it was definitely like, that was missing from my life
for a long time.
Aaron: Yeah. The actual verb of being in community.
Courtney: Yes. And being there to take a meal.
Or being in a place where you need to ask for [00:24:00] help
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the pandemic really drove that home for me
because
I kind of look back at the first six to nine months of the pandemic as horrible and heartbreaking in a lot of ways. But in my tiny little world, it was actually really beautiful
because
we had another couple living with us.
So we had meals together every
night And we had like our pods of people that we would see. I was in touch with so many more friends who were
in this town or not.
And that kind of has fallen away a lot
since the Pandemic. Ended, whatever. So it's,
made me think about that.
And honestly, my mom having a stroke
and seeing The way that my parents' community in Michigan, even people who weren't close, like my dad's coworkers and colleagues There was this one woman who delivered food every single Sunday night for months.
And she was just like, that was her belief system on Sundays.
She like, was like, who in my [00:25:00] community needs me? I'm gonna make a bunch of meals. And she would just drop it at the, doorstep, at my parents' house. And that whole experience kind of shifted for me where I wanted to exert my energy in life. And
also. Really contributed to the decision to have a second child,
That makes touring and that life even harder, even though I so deeply love touring and want to keep that life going.
it's just, I think your priority starts shifting. Your, mental load starts shifting of, yeah. When you're not just only thinking of yourself,
which This isn't like to frame it as a negative.
I think it's also a, beautiful time of life and some people might want to remain in that for their lifetime and think that
that's what
their contribution to the world is.
Courtney: absolutely.
Michaela: And others might decide, oh, I wanna actually like, know what this feels like to know my home a little better and my
community here. And, I felt that this year for the first time, [00:26:00] because Georgia's now in preschool and she started a new school in September and I went on tour and I felt like so sad to miss, orientation
I came back after three weeks and I was like, I don't know all these little friends she's talking about.
And like,
Courtney: Oh.
Michaela: and now I've been home, so I do, but it was just like so, startling for me because I've always just wanted to go. And now I was like, I never knew that this day would come where I wanted to like go to the playground meetup way more than I wanted to play songs on stage. That feels really
scary To admit out loud.
Courtney: You said that being in your parents' community, affected your decision to have a second
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: What was that connection?
Michaela: Well, My mom is one of six kids and not all of her siblings, but most of her siblings, they all live in the same town.
And then they have kids and we have like extended family from that.
And I just really saw, yes, you can [00:27:00] build familial community with, friends, but it just really made me think about the family that Aaron and I were building.
and though more people is more chaotic,
more Potential conflict, more potential pain, more you know, limitations in a lot of ways, it really just made me also want more of our people.
I wanted a sibling for Georgia.
That's not guaranteed that it's gonna be a beautiful, easy relationship.
Michaela: I have a
brother and we've had our ups and downs, but I
think there's, value in all of that as well.
So seeing that really drove that home for me.
Courtney: Yeah, And these different seasons like. For some seasons or for some people, for, a life, the way to live with more love is to show up on stage with your full self
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: to the people who are there. And in other seasons, the way to live with more [00:28:00] love
Michaela: Cool.
Courtney: actually be a neighbor to your neighbors, to just love these little ones so that they might, how to love It is different in different seasons, choosing those. And seeing the value of that in the season that you're in. ' cause it can be hard to see that, I think especially at home, it's really not glamorous. I mean, On the road too, it's not glamorous.
Michaela: Yep.
Courtney: so much time in a van, you spend so much time just like dealing with stuff.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Yourself and stuff around most of the time.
Michaela: Yeah.
Courtney: then showing up, like most of life is really unglamorous. But still, it's the place where we can show up with love
in whatever season we're in and,
Aaron: That's really beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. We had we were talking about this in a recent conversation about that's the actual work, you know, no matter what you're doing, whether
it's work Within your family or within your community,
or in your career. Most of it is, ugly and tedious.
And laborious and especially when we're focusing on like our, artistic [00:29:00] careers, our music careers, obviously it's like being able to perform on stage. It's that feeling. It's the, act of writing and like that feeling of when like, that lightning is striking or whatever, you know, it feels like for you or making a record or whatever it is.
Like high points are like what we think of. It's like, that's the work and I love this work. And it's like, it's, it's not, I mean, it, it is And that's wonderful and we're very lucky that, that we can call that our work. But like, 85 to 90% of the time is work and it's ugly.
Courtney: And learning to love the little things. I guess
whether it be the bath time or the fact that you get to drive in a quiet vehicle for
Michaela: Mm.
Aaron: Yeah. Yep.
Courtney: changes of those things. Changes
Aaron: yeah. Being able to enjoy the mundane,
Courtney: yeah,
Aaron: just like tedium.
I'm really interested in this kind of shift that you've made, how that's affected your creativity whether it's like the actual creative process
or
the inspiration spring of creativity. I'm
just really Interested in how that [00:30:00] has all been affected now.
Courtney: In the last number of years. Definitely a big shift from like writing for a project or for someone else's voice into writing. Just like basically for myself,
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Courtney: you know, I'm not, giving songs to other people to sing at this point in my that just changes my perspective.
I think writing for other people to sing is also like a very cool, and inspiring thing to do. You write differently. But it's a lot more like, much just gleaned from my own
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Courtney: point. And with kind of in the last, five years or so as well. process of.
Producing for other artists or teaching. That also it feels like, I need this rhythm of having time to focus on my own work and my own craft, and then being able to give energy and attention to someone else as they're, growing their craft or they're bringing [00:31:00] their fruit into the
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: that feels really good, that kind of cycle for me.
year kind of, I was focused on my own project and then it got to shift and I remember just having a pre-production Zoom call with, an artist I'm working with, and I was like, oh, it feels so good to just think about someone else's work.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Courtney: to just. on my own thing.
And then after a while that can feel draining to me, you know, like after a certain amount of that and I need to tend to my own craft.
So that's been a shift. I think also like, a certain kind of inspiration that comes from being in new places. I did a lot of international travel as well,
Michaela: Mm.
Courtney: and know, there's just like a simmering when you're experiencing new, everything, new senses, new language, Just seeing the way that people live. That's a specific kind of inspiration that's so totally different than sitting down at the same desk where I'm sitting right now [00:32:00] morning,
Or walking out into the same yard every But that's consistency is really rich.
the process of seeing your own, home or own life, with new perspective every day or don't know, maybe you all can speak to that, but it feels very different. But really rich in life giving. And now, almost my favorite thing in the day, other than like laughing with Temple or something, but is like having that time in the morning when I can just sit and, be at my desk.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Courtney: You know that consistency?
Michaela: that's been a huge shift for me of really valuing routine and consistency and seeing the inspiration in that, which I
used
to think this is the worst. Mm-hmm. And again, the
pandemic, really changed that for me because it was like, we had lived in this home for several years at that point,
and I was so [00:33:00] uninterested in being home and then we were forced to be home, and I was like, whoa, I've never been here in May when I've never noticed what blossoms. Like
I don't know anything about the nature around my house and when the morning glories start to bloom or when the cottonwood drops its cotton.
And like seeing the
pods And all of that stuff has only expanded since bringing a child into the world
who's so Endlessly curious about all of that.
It's a very different source of inspiration than the excitement of getting to go to museums and cafes and European cities and the things that I romanticized.
And I feel thankful. That my mind has been turned in that way and I like the work that I'm creating from that. But I think it's been a process for me to, separate from what however small my fan base is, what they would expect from me. I am curious if that's [00:34:00] ever been a thing for you?
Courtney: Tell me more about that for a second. did you feel be beholden to their expectations or afraid that they would not necessarily want what you had to give?
Michaela: Both
that they would not like what I had to give anymore
because it had Changed. And this is a good segue
for
Your upcoming project, because also so much is deeply ingrained. I've realized in me of this how cliche, but also boring and icky
To become a mother. And then wax poetic about the beauty of motherhood
and like, and
my child and how I see the
world so differently. And your new record that you're working on
is all about Motherhood and collaborating with other mother musicians. I'm curious of that, and I'm also curious for Aaron I mean, I know you don't write like explicitly lyrical songs from your own inspiration, but if there is any identity stuff as a [00:35:00] man
becoming a father, if there was any like awareness or thought to like how the world's gonna perceive me or in my career?
Aaron: Not explicitly, but I think implicitly, yes. Mm-hmm. I've mentioned on here a few times that like, I have noticed that, I guess the way to say it is my perceived perception, the way I see people perceive me now that
I'm a father is like with much more reverence and much more like respect.
it's like, oh, well he has a kid, he has a family, he needs the support. Of course he needs to do this.
Like,
whether it's somebody asking me for a tour or to work on a, record or something, it's like well, I know your time is valuable and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all of that.
I'm like, okay, I'm kind of the same person. I just have a kid.
you know, there is, I guess I, I view myself a little bit differently.
In the same sense in a way, now that I'm talking about it, I can't tell if it's like. Because I feel other people perceive me with more importance than I think of myself as more important,
Michaela: or if you Feel more important. So you think people are perceiving you with more [00:36:00] importance. Right,
exactly.
I have
Aaron: no idea which one's the chicken and the egg,
but they both exist. Yeah. At the same time.
Uh, um. definitely like you have a little, person, a little human who you are the most important too.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Aaron: There's definitely that. and we, funny enough, speaking of Robert Ellis, we talked with Robert about like how I want my kids to see me. You know, it's like I'm chasing what I love. I'm
doing what I love. It's not easy, but I'm showing up for
it repetitively and consistently,
Predictably.
I think about that a lot. Just the older our kid gets, the more I realize oh, you see everything and like
you hear everything, That kind of like keeps me in check. Not that I was
like, even in the, periods of my life that I was like, air quotes, like off the rails,
Courtney: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: I was say it's like pretty tame. Uh,
but
Michaela: it, it makes you aware of how you're living because
you, realize there's this impressionable little witness.
Aaron: for [00:37:00] me, it's more of like, am I in integrity with myself it's almost like there's no more like, well, when I grow up, I want to be like this.
It's
like,
No, that's, we're grown up now. That's now
Courtney: This, yeah. And they're watching.
Aaron: yeah.
Courtney: had a really vivid moment of that. I think Temple might have been like, three months old. I was teaching a group of people, at Brian Sutton's guitar camp and feeling pretty about own playing because I was still in postpartum really.
And even your body feels different, like I had never thought of like playing guitar, which Mikayla, you're so in right now, but playing guitar and singing as you're pregnant, like your whole
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: changing and how you play changes and then it changes again after you have the baby. So there's so much wrapped around that.
But I was feeling unsettled and a little insecure as I'm teaching these students. And then someone asked like, how has having a child changed your playing? It hit me and I, cried in front of [00:38:00] this class. Like, I do not want her to see me, shy away from, or, put my love for music, like stuff it under the bed or put it away because of my own insecurities.
I don't wanna not sing because of my own pride. that's the last thing I want for her. I wanna sing for her. I want to
Aaron: Mm.
Courtney: and, be okay with what it sounds like today. And just show up in that way.
And to not hide
but McKayla, in regards to your question about like perception and feeling like you aren't.
Showing up in the way you've shown up musically before Mm-hmm. that people might not like that. I definitely felt that, especially in regards to like, I love playing guitar. I love the flat picking tradition that I come from, but that in itself didn't feel like all of me.
And some people maybe would just want me to do that That's okay. There's lots of people that do
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: And recognizing that [00:39:00] this is still a process for me, our community listeners, they're also going through life changes. And for a long time I think I. Maybe it's still in me a little, but wanted to make music that was interesting or maybe complex
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: cool.
Which I don't think always served the music well. Because it was more about me. It was about me being respected or interesting I think that with this new project, there was a bit of needing to shed some of that.
Recognizing also that the music that I was really being fed by was not always that, especially not if it was like interesting for, pride's sake
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: that doesn't do anything for me.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. I trying to put that kind of work into the world?
Mm-hmm.
Aaron: That resonates. So heavily with me. I have a hard drive here of songs that I've made, like just myself, instrumental stuff that
like, I was like, you know, One day I'll put that out. taking a bunch Of like Eric sat music and [00:40:00] making it on instruments that are not just solo piano and all of this, and I'll listen.
I'll be like, I was trying really hard.
I put a lot of effort into that this comes
from like McKayla and I met in jazz school and that was
my Experience and my perception of what jazz school was. It was really like incredibly talented technical musicians.
Like,
but it kind of felt in a way of like bodybuilders and people like flexing in front of a mirror and be like, look at this.
And like, yeah, there's a lot of muscles there,
Courtney: totally. there was. like interesting to listen to sometimes.
Aaron: Yeah, exactly. But it was like, I listened back to that music that I like, wanted to be a part of so heavily and wanted to be in so heavily, but just like was never there. I've learned, like as I've gotten older, I also knew as I was younger, like I knew like in high school, but got twisted as I went to a boarding school, an art school in
Michigan, And that was like very technical and deep and
I loved it. And Then went to jazz school. So I had like six years of very intense school.
And that changed me to [00:41:00] like really want to make this like really technical, really complex, really like virtuous music.
you know, Was in my head. And I listen to that music now and like I can appreciate it, but I feel like I'm reading a really. Insider medical journal of words that like 99% of the population don't even understand, but the people that do are
like, This is a great paper. You should read this, and everybody else is gonna read a paragraph and fall asleep and use it as like a coaster.
Courtney: And the striving I still have a desire to be excellent in my craft like
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: to be growing, even if that's at really small steps these
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: But to have excellence in our work,
Or to be deeply rooted in our instrument or our voice or our writing it's different than the striving for approval
it's like, those are two different things.
'cause I think we can continue to grow in our craft and grow as musicians and that will lead us into all different places. It'll lead everybody into different places. Is,
Michaela: [00:42:00] Yeah.
Courtney: but it is like you can hear when people are, trying or they're needing, you to, applaud.
Aaron: Yeah.
Courtney: hopefully I'm becoming more aware when I'm doing that as well, Yeah. probably a lifelong thing for,
Aaron: for
sure. and I wholeheartedly agree on like the striving for excellence and striving for like,
Aaron: attaining, I don't wanna use the word like perfection, but I still want to make great impactful art.
and what has shifted for me was where. Used to be like, technical and all of that. That's almost something that like, I can do that repeatedly and I can do that repeatedly and try, try, try, and I can get there and there's a finish line. But now where my aesthetics have changed is like to really serve the song and serve that emotion and make that as tangible and moving and impactful as possible is
striving in surrendering. the more I feel like I'm pushing, the more you feel it, it becomes this like stranglehold, you said earlier in relation to your career. You had to really approach it with an open hand.
And that's how I feel it now in
trying to serve The song and serve the music and serve [00:43:00] the emotion.
It's this weird paradox for me of effort and, surrender at the
same time.
Courtney: Yeah. Totally.
Michaela: Yeah, and I think the more you know yourself and you know your taste and respect, your evolving taste of
what intrigues you, what you're drawn to, that helps you create more purely for what you want versus from a
place of what I think a specific person might think is good or tell me it's okay.
I remember like being younger, especially being in jazz school and like knowing I was not a jazz musician, but I was there feeling so, less than because I wasn't. Interested in singing scat solos. And I was like getting really into bluegrass and country songs but
even in the bluegrass World, I was like, I gotta get really good at guitar because that's how I'll get respect. And then I
finally was like, I have no interest in getting good at [00:44:00] guitar.
Courtney: totally.
Michaela: Like I wanna play guitar solid enough to be a rhythm guitar player and be able to communicate the songs that I wanna write and sing. and
that should be enough. Will
people be more impressed by me if I could play like Courtney Hartman? Yes. But is that what my true desire is? Do I actually wanna put in the time to do that because it
inspires me? No. Mm-hmm.
Courtney: Yeah. That's so freeing.
Michaela: Yeah. And it's shedding the like, okay, I know, so and so is never gonna be like, damn, your guitar playing is so good.
And like, being okay with that
because that's not where I personally want to put my attention. Letting those things go so that you're working from a place of No, I create because I wanna create, not because I want to, impress my, professor or the musician I love, or my old boss
Courtney: yeah I, just thinking about the word surrender
That sense [00:45:00] of knowing what it is you want and who it is you are, and who you're becoming.
Aaron: And knowing that there's not one answer to that,
that you can contain multitudes.
Speaking of learning from your
children. I was talking to,
our daughter about this on the way to dropper at daycare this morning. ' cause I was singing to a song and she goes, dad You're not a singer. You're a drummer. But
I was like, But I'm singing. She's like, mom's a singer. I was like well, mom also plays guitar and she plays piano. She goes, no, mom's a singer. And I'm like, well, are
you a singer? And she goes, I'm a singer. I'm like, are you a musician?
She goes, I'm a musician. I'm like, are you an artist? She's like, I'm an artist.
I was like, you. can be all of that.
she was kinda like. Hmm. and suck her thumb in her mouth.
And That was that. But it got me thinking, that's what I was thinking about for the rest of the
drive.
It is like,
you know,
Courtney: She's like, okay, case closed.
Michaela: and another like way that it brings us to awareness of like the words that we use where we're like, yeah, dad's a drummer, so she's like,
that's, what he does. But like recognizing. But we also can sing also. She says, I'm a singer, but she does not allow me to sing.
No. So it's
all [00:46:00] these, it's such an interesting concept of the openness of a child as well as the literalness of taking those things. And how like, as an adult. Being like wait, how can I hold both of those and let myself continually evolve and not just, you know, like in what you were saying, you were, like in your career, you were coming up in Della Ma and seen as the flat picking side guitarist,
there is so much more to you as a songwriter and a vocalist.
And a storyteller, and not letting yourself think, but I'm a guitarist first and foremost.
Courtney: And then the growing From that as like, now I'm a musician or a songwriter, but in my community I'm also a mother and I'm also, a doula.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: a friend. when at one point it was all that I was
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: that I, was perceived as, at least in my own mind and becoming [00:47:00] comfortable with it being a slice of the pie now
I am just like well, no, this is what I do.
But it does feel good sometimes when people don't know that you do that,
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. they only know you by this other part of your
I love these conversations of. Personal evolution in that, because I think, not just in the music world, but everywhere we look the world kind of wants to put us in boxes and like
we've created This even, bigger monster of social media where like, if you wanna do well on social media, you gotta pick your lane and stay
in there and re do only post about this over and over and over again.
And
I remember we had Andrew Combs on he was one of our first guests, and he was sharing his own personal evolution. And I remember one time seeing him post a song on Instagram and in the caption he said, I realize most of you here probably, know me as a musician, but I also wanna be known as a father and a
husband, And a friend and a painter and like all these other things.
And he was like, but I do wanna share [00:48:00] a song, which I haven't done in a long time. I mean, it's just like scrolling through my phone on this tech app and I was so taken by that of just
this kind Of like recognition of these nameless people out there might know me as one thing, but I'm gonna be really assertive in articulating that.
I don't wanna be only seen as this one thing. Even
though We're told over and over, our success kind of hinges on owning that completely as our full self.
Courtney: Which doesn't leave very much room or grace for change Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I think that, you mentioned the project that I've been working on, which came from the journey into motherhood for
which. social media, we get to choose what parts of ourselves we present to the world.
I guess as artists we do that as well. there's this continual choice do I show this part of myself? Or can I just keep that compartmentalized? And for me, like songs that came from that season, and then were written with other mothers it felt like fully [00:49:00] putting on the cloak of this new me or like, owning it,
Aaron: Yeah.
Courtney: you know what I mean?
Of, just being like, yeah, this part of life that I've been really afraid to come face to face with is now, who I am.
And not everyone will resonate with that,
and that's also okay.
But I definitely had to walk through a bit of guess insecurity for lack of a better, word
around that of like, this isn't what I thought I would create.
this isn't what people want to hear. This isn't what, I want to define me for this moment in life. And then surrendering to
Michaela: I love that.
Aaron: And like, And like you were saying about, self-perception Making a project like this wholeheartedly and putting that cloak on and going fully there does not mean that you're there forever. is, it's a record for a reason.
It's a record of where you are right
now and what your life is.
Courtney: And right now, in this moment, I can speak to life in this
and then it will change.
And that's so important to keep in mind that yeah, not putting bars around what other people
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: really not doing that [00:50:00] for ourselves.
Aaron: I guess there's a paradigm shift that you can make where it's like you are able to create this project right now, and
who knows if you ever will be able to again, so why not do that right
now?
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Courtney: when you're at the beginning of these seasons or like seeing parts of life with a kind of freshness, whether it's grief or bringing new life in or whatever that might be. That kind of accepting like this is where I am right now and what I have to speak
Michaela: Mm-hmm. And It might not resonate with everyone, but the people it does resonate with,
Will resonate very strongly with,
and that's, I think, always a really important reminder of there are people out there who need this specific story that you're
able to give At this
time. Mm-hmm.
Courtney: And our responsibility, I think for me at least, I see it that way, like my responsibility to show up and say yes to the work that comes, because we don't know, who needs to hear something and we most likely will never know,
Michaela: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Courtney: amazing.
Courtney: It's really nice [00:51:00] when you hear from somebody, but it's also like we won't know
Michaela: Yeah. That feels like a really beautiful place to,
Put a bow on it, as we say.
Aaron: Uh, yeah.
Well,
Thank you again for making time to sit and chat
with us today.
Courtney: Thank you both so much.
I feel so grateful for you all and don't know how you do it, but you continue to put really beautiful work into the world and it's, been encouraging to me and I know it's encouraging to so many people.
Michaela: Thank you. Thank you. We appreciate that.
Okay.
All right. Alright, Courtney, likewise.
you.
Aaron: See you soon.
Michaela: Bye.