Daren Thomas Magee - Real Fun, Wow! - is an illustrator, muralist, and designer based in Ojai California, who has used social media as a creative tool to grow a following (370,000 on instagram currently) and launch a company built on his artwork - selling prints, apparel and housewares of all kinds, and has grown to include multiple employees and collaborations with companies as far reaching as tiles, towels, and candles. We talk with Daren about tuning your instrument to the beauty of life around you, sacrifices you make to live in an inspiring place, play within a system not designed for play, creative inspiration in creating performative social media, and a whole lot more.
Daren Thomas Magee - Real Fun, Wow! - is an illustrator, muralist, and designer based in Ojai California, who has used social media as a creative tool to grow a following (370,000 on instagram currently) and launch a company built on his artwork - selling prints, apparel and housewares of all kinds, and has grown to include multiple employees and collaborations with companies as far reaching as tiles, towels, and candles. We talk with Daren about tuning your instrument to the beauty of life around you, sacrifices you make to live in an inspiring place, play within a system not designed for play, creative inspiration in creating performative social media, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 1 0 5, and this week we are featuring our conversation with Daren Thomas Magee.
Aaron: it is a third conversation in our kind of new series of having these talks on creativity and. Building a career on your art with artists that aren't musicians. And Darren is an illustrator, muralist designer. His company is called Real Fun. Wow. If you're like, at least me, I'll speak for myself.
You probably have seen him more stumbled across his work via Instagram. as we touch on in this conversation, he also views now the videos and the things that we need to do on Instagram. As a creative [00:01:00] habit and embodying that kind of character and how to kind of talk about your art in a way that keeps people engaged and wanting to buy your stuff.
Michaela: Yeah, and how tricky that can be. the love, hate relationship that we all have with it, especially when it's built on these platforms from tech companies that we have no control over, So we dig in deep about social media and how that plays a role in our business, as well as the emotional, mental side of our creativity.
But we also talk a lot about how he gains inspiration and intentional presence from the environment and his surroundings. He has the great privilege of living in Ojai, California. And he talks about the importance of tuning his instrument, his body, through his health and wellness, to actually be able to see and appreciate the beauty around him.
I just, I feel like I'm gonna be using that saying all the time now of I need to tune my instrument so that I can actually resonate with what is in front of me,
Aaron: what's [00:02:00] around us. Yeah, absolutely. As with all of these conversations, there are topics and questions and. Vibes that we get recommended to us from the subscribers on our Patreon.
And that's because they get advanced notice of the guests. They also get the fulfilling feeling of financially supporting the production of this show is the only way you can do that at the moment, and we would love it if you got involved with that. So if you'd like to know about future guests, if you'd like to get involved with the community, if you'd like to help us continue to make this show every week, there is a link below in the show notes.
Michaela: And if you are a visual person and like to watch, as you listen, this conversation as well as all of our previous a hundred plus episodes are available on YouTube.
Aaron: So without further ado, here is our conversation with designer illustrator, artist Darren Thomas McGee of real fun.
Wow.
Daren: Thanks for taking time outta your morning to sit and chat with us.
abundant amount of time that I have. It's least 22 hours. Yeah.
Aaron: wonderful.
Michaela: so I, know I filled you inbut [00:03:00] this is the first year that we've decided to expand the conversation to other.
Mediums of art who are building their life and their careers on their artistry. So you are our third conversation in the non-musician realm.
Daren: great.
Michaela:
Aaron: like Ika said, generally like the gist is kind of a general exploration of like.how we stay creative and sane when all of a sudden our livelihood is based on our creativity. You know, We all start and it's like, oh, this thing is wonderful. This is fun. This is playtime. Then it's like, mortgage bills, kids
Daren: Yeah.
Aaron: childcare.
Daren: Yes. Well, If you have any answers to those, I'll take the answers for sure. Or I'll leave you
Michaela: Yeah. No, that's, why we started this podcast.
Aaron: Yeah. Funny. We're over a hundred, conversations deep on this, and the questions just keep growing. We,
Daren: Yes.
Aaron: you know,
It's like, ah, yeah, there's nope, nobody
Daren: if there was an answer, it would've been discovered by now and we would've applied it. But I think just the inherent nature of the fact that we are in this kind of exploratory place that does not have a predestined route or blueprint or anything that we're doing [00:04:00] things individually.
The only kind of commonality between it is that we're following something that is of just inherently in us creatively. And, then it tries to match with the system of finances and mortgages and And so they just, they don't match up. So yeah, there's gonna always, I think, be an inherent struggle, for sure.
Michaela: Yeah. And I think what we have found is, what helps that struggle is sharing it and feeling less alone in it, so that you are reminded constantly that this isn't unique. I'm not feeling the struggle because something's lacking in me. And then also sharing ideas of like, oh.
That's what you do when you feel that way, or honestly, that's how you set up your budget or how you plan for that project. the very practical information that we can share with each other as well as the more, emotional, spiritual, uplifting just stringing some beautiful words together that can help buoy us in a day that feels hard or
something. Yeah, for sure.
So we [00:05:00] usually like to start with just a very general, how are you today and where are you physically as well as in your creative world path.
Daren: Yes. Great question. I am well in terms of uh, I'm well hydrated. I'm well fed, so my bodily
Michaela: Hmm.
Daren: I went to the gym this morning, so I got expend that energy and feel strong and, and, just good in my body. I'm now physically sat in this sort of third bedroom that's in my house that I share.
I cohabitate this backdrop wasn't here, you would see the chaos behind me, which is my child's playroom, which is
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: a
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: of just insanity. I try to clean up and then it just goes back to,
Aaron: Yep.
Daren: a mess again. So I
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: to the fact that it's kind of this room that is for that.
And then I, have a little desk here that I sit at, and I have a, window right in front of me that looks right out to this incredible mountain range. I live in a little magical town called Ohio, California. It is so special. It is so inspirational. It is just my muse and my home and just [00:06:00] everything about where I'm at currently in my career as an artist, as a creative, I can give largely most of the credit to this place as being the inspiration, the springboard, just the genesis of all of that.
And now I've come to find myself in this home that is not mine, but I pay a substantial amount of money to somebody else to let me live here. And I get this view of this like, insane. I mean, It's so incredible and it, I've been living here for about eight years and it's yet to have lost its luster and
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: and I notice on days where I'm not as present or I'm not as appreciative or grateful. I look at these mountains and if they don't elicit that awe, then I can, kind of be drop right into a present moment of just like, look at the mountains and just, be in wonder of that. And it really is a, an amazing, easily accessible exercise to just to recognize how present I actually am if I'm feeling overwhelmed or consumed by my thoughts, look at the mountains, look at the mountains.
And so
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: Currently. And uh, I'm, happy to be in it. And it's a beautiful, yesterday was in the eighties and today I think we'll get close to it. And it's just, to live here in [00:07:00] California, are you guys in California?
Michaela: We're in Nashville.
Daren: so I just realized today not, I didn't just realize this, but I remembered it.
Again, I lived anywhere else, I would be doing so much better financially, but I choose to live and I looked at, to list, just to confirm it, not that I didn't know this, but I live in the 50th state in terms of level of affordability. So I'm all, we're all
Aaron: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Daren: Terms of affordability,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: things that we fall in, 50th and I pay, to have this experience I pay to have this kind of California easygoing lifestyle that kind of.
What could be a little tropey tropey or, stereotypical about this state is also true. It is really beautiful. We are afforded incredible access to nature and the coastline and all the things that California has come to be known by. And also for a small business owner. It is, absolutely
Aaron: brutal.
Daren: I'm included in this. I was gonna say anyone who can sustain. Living on an entrepreneurial salary that you've generated yourself? I have no, you know, I have no investors. I have no support from family. I have nothing but these silly, ridiculous [00:08:00] ideas that come outta my head and find a way to translate them and try to bring 'em into the world and hopefully sell them to people in one form or another.
That has supported me and sustained me to live specifically in this town. Which, you know, you start to get really small, like California is, unaffordable, and then you get smaller and small. And this town I live in is particularly difficult to make it work. And so I just say all that to recognize how proud I am that I've done this all on my
Michaela: Yeah.
Daren: on an artist, on a creative salary and all of that.
So every day it's kind of, I'm required to check in with that because otherwise I could just throw it all away and, and I can move to Arkansas, which I looked into today is, the most affordable state. don't wanna live in Arkansas. I've never been. I mean, People might live in Arkansas and absolutely love it.
If it's the most affordable, it probably lacks certain qualities of life you know, in order to make it that affordable. So
Michaela: This is a conversation we have
Aaron: all the time. Daily. We lived in, so we met in Brooklyn, New York and lived there for 11, 12 years before we moved to Nashville. We've been here for 10 years, 10 years, 11 years this summer.
Michaela: to preface, he grew up in [00:09:00] Maine. Yeah. And I grew up a military kid, so my dad was a submarine captain, so always by the ocean. I lived in Southern Italy, but I mostly grew up in the Pacific Northwest in Washington, outside of Seattle. So like beautiful places.
Aaron: Yeah. Which, you know, Nashville has its own beauty. Tennessee definitely has its own beauty. Pretty much anybody you talk to in Nashville would be like, Nashville's Not easy on the eyes, you know, like on your normal street. But we talk about it because like, we're able to own a house. We're sitting in, our recording studio, which is 40 feet behind our house, and it allows us to travel more than we would say if we lived in California or we're constantly doing that math luckily, the community here in Nashville, the musician community is what keeps us here.
And it's, saving grace. But you know, It's like, what if we just lived in the beauty?
Daren: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: You know? Like What if, like you said, to be able to look out you know, to me, like growing up in New England and growing up in the woods is like being able to look out my window and just be in the woods.
Like Not see my neighbors, not hear my neighbors and just be there is
Daren: I
Aaron: Really fulfilling.
Daren: the perfect, there is no perfect place.
you
live in the, in the kind of the wilds [00:10:00] of Maine and, you have that inherent beauty around you, but now you're lacking community. You move into a city like Nashville, you've got community now you're lacking beauty.
It's just like, I think different points in your life you can reevaluate. Like, I have a young child and so for all intents and purposes, this is a perfect place to raise a child. And when my child is old enough, I'm willing to just then, you know, downsize or move or try to, you know, travel a
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: you know, you find a whatever place you are in your life at that point, and hopefully it is a place where you're like, yes this works for me right now. And fortunately, we as creatives have the opportunity to potentially not be nailed down by any one specific location.
It's, you know, we have a more of a remote capacity,
Michaela: I love how you said one, the privilege, but also the sacrifice you make to live in that space that you're intentional about having to check in there and be like, okay, wait, look at those mountains. 'cause I do think it is like you get used to anything. I, a lot of the people I grew up with in Washington State, I moved away at 18 and I, lived in Washington and moved away a lot because of my dad's military career. And then I moved to New York [00:11:00] City at 18 and I remember coming back and my friends picking me up from the airport and they had never left Washington. And it was just like this stunning, clear day. Like sun is shining, no clouds. So like we're driving back from the airport and you can see Mount Rainier and then the Cascade Mountain Range and the Olympic Mountains then the water is glistening and it was just like. I hadn't seen it for a few years, and I was like, oh my God, you guys like, look at how incredible this is.
Like I'm getting chills thinking about it. I'll never forget it, because my friend Brian was like,
Aaron: oh yeah,
Michaela: like, oh, he looked at it every day. So he was like, you were right. This is
majestic. I mean,
Like.
Daren: Beauty is in the, the eye and I can give a similar scenario was when I was in my mid twenties. I worked a couple of seasons in Yosemite. And you know, by all standard of measure, one of the most beautiful places in the world, I. And I was in a place where I couldn't see beauty.
I was sad. I was lonely. I was [00:12:00] just uninspired. I was unhealthy. That's like a huge aspect of what I've kind of learned to tune your instrument, to be able to pick up the resonance of the, beauty around you is you have to be in tune with that. And so I can remember from, community housing would be a short bike ride to where I worked passing waterfalls and, and cliff faces and you know, I should have been just, oh my God, freaking out.
And I didn't see any of it. And it just was not happening
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: And I can clearly understand why, where I said, now where I'm in the best shape of my life mentally and physically, that I can appreciate mountains around me. So it different periods of your life where you're at, what you're seeking and what you're open to it matters for sure.
Aaron: I can't help but make the parallel between not keeping your eyes open to the majesty of like the physical place that you live in, and then also our lives as being able to exist on our art, if that makes sense. You know, I'll talk to people and they're like, wow, you just get to make music all day.
And they're like, well. and do all this other stuff to keep a business running. And that's, not fun. You know, Anything you do is going [00:13:00] to be work. But, if I'm able to pause for a second and be like, yeah, wow, look at this. This is pretty cool. You know, we, We have a, young daughter as well, and I dropped her off today and she didn't wanna be dropped off at daycare.
And I'm like, you know, it is kind of fun. We're here, it's really nice outside, we're in the studio, we're like making stuff, you know, having these conversations, like Yeah. That is kind of a pretty fun way to spend your
day in the end, you know? and like,
Daren: I want,
Aaron: yeah.
Daren: Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah. And I
Daren: is that, thing that we've afforded ourselves is staying in play, like you said early on.
Aaron: mm-hmm.
Daren: It's really important to recognize that again, we're, not fighting necessarily, but we're certainly in contention with a system that isn't really designed for play necessarily or,
much as we play.
And so we do have to in the, in-between times and, I'm, almost 10 years into being an independent artist who supports himself on this, still at odds with the systems that are in play that require me in times of like. You know, a lot of taxation issues, like again, to
Michaela: Hmm.
Daren: heavily taxed and so there's [00:14:00] not a lot of benefit, almost just as like almost stupid to run a small business here.
'cause I give away
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: amount of my money right back to the government. And it's just this perpetual cycle that I get caught in and I get caught up and I don't. Resonate with it. 'cause it has no creative aspect to it. It has no imagination to it, it has no play to pay taxes and you don't know where they go.
It doesn't feel like this good feeling of like, yeah, I feel good doing my part and contributing to the system. None of that is present in that. And so to have this day that's filled with ingenuity and creativity and then have to be like, yeah, also you gotta put on your business hat every now and then.
And I still struggle with that and I don't know that I'll ever get good at it, that's why you hopefully hire people who do actually care about that or are good at that, to step in and, fill that role. 'cause it is the worst. And it's just
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: to it. I'm a little petulant about it where I'm like, I'm a child.
Like I don't wanna have to do, I wanna play all the time. I wanna play and
Michaela: yeah,
Daren: it's
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: I like going back to what you said though about being able to see the beauty and the physical [00:15:00] beauty around you, that you said, I have to tune my instrument of your body, like your physical, mental, emotional health. And one of the things we really like to talk about is trying to dispel the myth that artists are a certain way.
And I think historically, visual artists, writers. Rock and roll musicians. There's always this storied idea. Tormented artist. Yeah. The tormented artist, the drinking and staying up and smoking and like, abusing yourself. And you're so dark that then you're making this genius art. And I like to have conversations that contrast that and talk about actually what it is to care for yourself and invest that time and not sacrifice your health for also building a career.
'cause that's a whole other element especially in the musician world of touring, that it's like you kind of abuse your body and. Don't develop a lot of other aspects of your life, all in the name of [00:16:00] sacrifice for building your career. So I'm wondering if you can talk about in your field of illustrating and doing design work how you've learned along the way, if you've learned the importance of tuning your instrument and what that looks like for you and how you, see that impact on your creative work, the better you feel?
Daren: I mean, I think that there, you know, you say like the tormented artist, I would argue that I'll speak for myself here. I feel fairly tormented just in general as a human being who's in the
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: crisis of like, I don't know what I'm doing here. I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here.
Am I supposed to be doing anything or is this an accident? Just this kind of like
Aaron: Hmm.
Daren: of just general existence. And so I feel like when I take care of myself, which the practices I've developed over the past few years, which is a regular exercise routine, running and strength training, and then a regular meditation practice.
Those two things are just to keep the torment at bay or to not identify with it, I guess would be a better way to say it. So [00:17:00]
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: tormenting myself to the degree that it's actually becoming an identification, it's how I'm thinking or seeing through the world then everything's gonna be colored that way.
Then I don't see the mountains, then I don't feel inspired to put color on a canvas, and then fighting just to. be well. And so it's a management of, like I've recognized that I have a very active mind that is. A gift and a curse is to be that, cerebral and to have constant ideas and, just inspiration.
And inspiration I think isn't always like, positive. Like I'm inspired to worry. I'm, I'm inspired to freak out about things. And so the,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: that builds up is happening inside this instrument. And I think the tuning comes in with utilizing the body, getting the energy out, letting the mind kind of have its way without identifying it with it.
And I, I'm saying these things as fairly new. my meditation only a few years old, but identification was something that I just completely didn't have at all. Where you have these thoughts. And [00:18:00] you are having the thoughts, you are not the thoughts. It's a very base, mindfulness concept.
when I started able to actually separate that, I was like, oh okay. I can watch scary thoughts, this doom and gloom and allow for them and say, yes, of course. Like you have that place. Like, I understand why you'd feel that way because of your childhood or because of society.
All these like things of just being kind to your mind and furthermore becoming a parent and then seeing like this kind of. outward representation of a child who's freaking out about something and said, just be, oh, you're all right. Like, You're okay. Just be like, yeah, that's really scary, isn't it?
Oh my God, I know. Isn't this wild, this world we live in that you don't know anything about? And so to find myself saying that stuff to my child and being like, oh, I also need to hear that sort of thing, because
Michaela: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Daren: a child, you know, I'm just a 42-year-old child, basically. And so the taking care of myself.
Is just a, a management practice around like, if I don't do that, if I don't go for a run, I can feel that energy built up. and the inspiration that comes out of it is not gonna be good. [00:19:00] when I alleviate myself of all that pent up energy, pent up pressure clearer notes are coming out.
I think that's really important. Yeah. I mean, you know, it is funny talking about musicians or artists, there is that kind of cliche tropes or these archetypes of what an artist is. And I don't like, the ones just, Keith Richards, we'll just throw him in as an example.
I never would've imagined. He goes for runs or, exercises or, he seems to trash his body and he also can deliver that. And so I don't know if that. That works well for him. I mean, that band has managed to just exceed the
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: of an artist.
So, it doesn't always work for everybody, but I would obviously think that, health is wellness. That's what I'm gonna
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: of taking care of yourself, for sure. Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. meditation has been part of my life to varying degrees for probably half my life, but that coupled with exercise really does wonders for me. And it's like the, cocktail of mindfulness and like, you were saying, like noting these emotions and like existing with them. as we were talking about like, [00:20:00] again, to draw the metaphor, of existing, like with these mountains here, you know, you're very much like the mountains are there and I'm here and this is beautiful. You're like, this struggle is here and I'm here. And, it's a separation there.
And then the exercise portion of like being proactive and having the facility to move and make progress both physically in motion and then progress physically as getting stronger and all of that reminds me that I'm in control.
You know, O over, over
Daren: with our mind so much, or again, I did this program a while back where
Aaron: for sure.
Daren: important that you speak an i statements. I have to say, we, I'll say I, I identify with my
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: or I'm preoccupied with my mind so much that for many
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: I neglected the fact that I had a body because it's just like everything happens up here.
It's almost as if like, well, who cares what my knees think or my, ankles or anything? And so to become to this new awareness of, recognizing like my body almost screaming like, Hey, I'm also here. I'm the vessel that brings you through this, that takes you from this place to this place that allows you to, I hold these thoughts for you.
And so really to have an [00:21:00] appreciation and a love and respect for the vessel. That is the only thing that is like in this 3D space with you is I think for me, it took a long time to recognize the value. Of how those work together. And you know, and it almost just is like, sometimes it takes you 40 something years to figure something out and you go like, oh, if this body feels well, it will translate into the healthier thoughts.
And I just think that, it's so simple when I, finally figure it all out, and now that like, as I get older and, just it's required to just like, health is wealth. All these kind of old platitude cliches that are like, oh,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: thank you. Like, I've heard that my entire life
Michaela: Yeah.
Daren: it.
Aaron: Oh, that's what that means. Yeah. exactly.
Michaela: I also think getting older, I've been reflecting a lot about how much in my youth, in my twenties, like I would look at things that, you know, quote unquote
older people did, like gardening and going to bed early.
And it just seemed so lame. And now I'm like, those are just glorious things that make me feel so much better [00:22:00] as a person. So I do think there's this thing that happens that I'm noticing with age, that you start to realize so many cliches are actually deep
wisdom,
Daren: exactly.
Michaela: like
Daren: is the perfect way to put it. Yeah.
you don't get it until you get it. You know? You wouldn't,
Michaela: Exactly.
Daren: you're not supposed to have that in the twenties. You're supposed to do the dumb shit, gets you in
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: Your body, and
Michaela: you're like, nah, those old people, they dunno what they're talking about. I mean, And I think parenthood is like the biggest realization of the wisdom and cliches we have a three and a half year old and we have a two month old right now.
And I just, especially with a newborn, it's such a deep reminder of oh, all the cliches are really true. It is like the best thing and the worst thing it goes by so fast and so slow. Like all of those, you know, in a way it's like, I feel like a lot of people can like roll their eyes at it, but It is to me, kind of like showing you what the depths of humanity are because it is like such a sacrifice, such a chore, such a labor, and also the greatest love you'll ever know and the greatest joy and like the greatest frustration. And [00:23:00] like it's,
Aaron: I mean, you know, talk about a practice in non-attachment, you know, going back to mindfulness, like you were saying about, room that
you have behind the curtain of like, you're cleaning one, you know, you get to one end and they're already messing up the other end, and it's like non-attachment to, the very physical reminder of time passing
that's in front of you.
So non-attachment to them or to your own timeline,
you know?
Daren: the, the kind of, the perspective around time especially is wild because in our twenties and thirties there's no perspective of like seeing time elapse. 'cause there's not, you're not actually like witnessing anything.
It's all very self-absorbed. And,
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: then yeah, like you said, I mean the, pants that don't fit anymore, the shoe, you're like, oh God, yeah. There's actually like, change happening here. And I think yeah, parenting for sure is one of those moments that really snap you out of yourself and obviously force you to care about somebody to a degree that you never have before.
And,
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daren: And the, just the paradox of like I saw tweet the other day that said my two favorite things are being with my kids and not being with my kids.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Daren: yeah. And I mean, the thing about parent, like the thing that I, feel [00:24:00] so deeply grateful for in my life as a creative as a parent is the freedom, most of the time it's just like, yep, I can drop anything.
'cause I'm not holding anything. I just have this freedom. My schedule is so like flexible I, really feel like I mean I obviously earned this, I created this for myself, but sometimes I feel like I won some kind of like, westernized lottery. Like There's still a spectrum even in our western society of like, yeah, we got it a lot better than other countries.
But even within that, you zoom in any further, there's people, good friends of mine who work nine to five.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daren: Be anything unless they drastically change their lives. that's not gonna change. And so they can look 10, 20 years in the future and be like, I know exactly when I'm gonna have time off.
And that's it. And for me, like it is so much freedom that comes with this that I'll often have to, again, with the mountains as well, just remind myself, I'm like, what time is it? What day is today? Like, where the time becomes so irrelevant because I'm either lost in my craft or I'm doing nothing and I get to enjoy that.
And so [00:25:00] as a parent that in particular to me, you know, both of my parents worked their asses off. They were in the service industry. And so they were very ruled by you know, kinda later schedules. And I had a grandmother who took care of me and it's just they just weren't afforded the opportunity that I have afforded myself in part.
And then I don't know if there's other, something on high that's given me this as well, but that's one of the biggest aspects to me of just like, man I, love that because I think that you can easily, like with kids, you know, this morning what you experienced the stress of like getting a child to a place.
'cause you're like, then I gotta go to a place and I'm, you know, and like I think for creatives I'm like, I just want you to go for a few hours. 'cause I just wanna go home and be weird and do my weird art stuff. It's not that I even
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: I mean,
really like, I could probably hang with you, like when my kid
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: and I go, okay, we're just hanging at home today it's
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: no sweat off my back.
So I, I love that aspect.
Michaela: with that freedom though, also comes the challenge of creating your own schedule and as a business how have you found it to create the discipline to. Create [00:26:00] enough, and do you have to have a schedule and how intentional are you with that? And then also with the business side, you know, do you have a calendar where you're like, this is a business day and this is an art day, and
or are you
Daren: No, I, I like, that's again, where the kind of the conflict between being a weirdo artist and a business owner, or just an inherent conflict with each other. real fun Wow. Exists three people, me who, does the thing. my partner Kevin, who I brought him on a number of years ago when I was just getting started selling art prints.
bought a, printer and I was like printing out art prints and mailing to people. And I was like, oh, this
Michaela: mm-hmm.
Daren: Like, I just send this. And I ran into him at a coffee shop, met him in, town, and he was like, Hey man, if you ever need any help. And I was just like, what would I ever need help with? I'm just a guy doing a little thing here.
And then, you know, the things just expanded. Like, Oh, this. Art that's on this piece of paper, we can put it on a t-shirt. And then just, that very snowball effect of like now have a huge product line of a bunch of stuff, him on a number of years ago. And so he's kind of the guy who keeps the business going, business side of things.
we have a [00:27:00] warehouse about 30 minutes from where I live, and we stock and we ship everything out of there. He handles all the backend stuff on the website, shipping profiles, all this stuff that like, I immediately just fall asleep doing.
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: recently been like, Hey, we should meet. More regularly.
'cause he, kind of runs the thing and we often don't have to communicate with each other 'cause it's just selling stuff online. And he's like, we should meet more often. And, sometimes I'm like, man, I don't wanna talk about business. The two hours that we're gonna spend talking about business.
I could be here making art. And so I'm very resistant and reluctant to my own demise and detriment that I don't find the business side of this stuff interesting at all. It's not
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: to come up with a new marketing plan or, put money into, investing into like. had spend, or all these things that I'm just like, anything that has nothing to do with me coming up with something original, artistically driven.
hate it. I'm resistant to it. I don't have calendars. I don't have plans. Like he's been very much the guy who's like, we just put out last week, I normally like, we'll come up with a product and then the product will get made and shipped to me, and then I'm immediately like, get my camera.
I wanna make a funny reel. Like, [00:28:00] I wanna make fun of this, I wanna do this. And like in my way, he's like, what if we just get a bunch of products and then we do like a collection? And obviously the motivation there is like, people come to the website, see the collection and have opportunity. Like he's thinking in that business way where I'm just this
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: want to do, I want to express myself, I wanna be funny with this.
I wanna do whatever. And he's reeled me into a certain degree, but I'm still very much this like, wild cowboy, CEO that like, you can't pin me down, or Yeah. I'm not gonna be put into this box sort of thing. And it does, it has an effect on the business where like.
I just have no acumen whatsoever when it comes to running a business this was never the plan. I didn't, get like funding and start a business plan and have to pitch this to something. All this stuff just happens so organically and it's still very much in that sort of organic place.
And I think it makes it hard for him in particular ' cause it motivates and benefits him. this business doesn't tank that he gets to have this cool job in California and, make his own hours and do all this sort of thing. So my schedule throughout the day is like, this is it with you guys today?
When we end this, I have no idea what I'm gonna [00:29:00] do. I'll probably end up on my computer and I'll get really unmotivated by like, looking at emails, being like, I don't wanna respond to these emails. I have a garage studio. I might go out there and try to do something, but really hard for me to put on that like business thing.
But it's also required, like if I created a art piece today, then I gotta take a photo of it, then I gotta list it on my website. I gotta do all these things where again, I think that if I was living in any other time, I would potentially have like a team who just handled that sort of stuff. But I become the excited artist and the reluctant business person. And that's kind of where I am most of the time.
Aaron: Having brought on somebody else to run the, business portion of that, but like, there's somebody else that is reliant on your art and your creativity for his livelihood. Do you feel that pressure in your creation?
Daren: Absolutely. Yes, for sure. I mean, now, like I feel like if he never came into my life, I probably would've ended this already. But now I feel like he's like one of my other children and I'm like, I wanna make sure you're taken care of. even in times where there's been like an [00:30:00] opportunity to kind of shift to more of like a drop ship, this stuff just gets manufactured somewhere else and sent out, that's come, you know, as a potential.
then I'm also saying, well that means Kevin doesn't have a job anymore. And so it is this kind of like, I want to keep him on. I love the idea of being a small business owner who provides a job opportunity for somebody and he's just, insanely smart and talented and I won't have him forever 'cause he's just, he's gonna outgrow this role and so he'll leave eventually, but for now, it's just like, it works for him to get to live, have a living wage in California, work for this kind of weird cool guy who lets him do whatever he wants.
And so, yes, but that pressure is so real and, I often think my life would be a lot easier if I didn't run a business. while I say that, I also think it wouldn't be as nearly as fulfilling. 'cause that would mean I have to go get a job. And then we talked about that already.
Nobody wants that.
Aaron: Exactly.
Michaela: I read that you started drawing and this became a business because you had jobs and you committed yourself to drawing every single day. So you made a pact with [00:31:00] yourself of, okay, I'm gonna start this habit, which we talk a lot about creative habits and how we change our brains by committing to habits as that habit has grown and now is a business that is, people are dependent on it.
Have you found that you need other artistic outlets to feel that play? Or are you still able to play within the medium of drawing?
Daren: it's funny, I have on my iPad on the desk here uh, which I started, when I first started drawing, everything was just with pen on a piece of paper and I would take a photo of it with my old iPhone and, post it. And then somebody said, you should get an iPad. And I was very reluctant 'cause I was such a purist and in the medium.
And then when I got one I was like, oh, this is insane. And then that was the point where my output just skyrocketed. 'cause just the workflow is so much easier and I could anywhere with it. I don't need a desk to write on a piece of paper. It was amazing and it was an amazing tool. Now it sits here, I don't know, I can't remember the last time I turned it on.
It literally has like dust on it so I don't draw anymore. And so to your question is like, what is the artistic outlet? If my whole artistic [00:32:00] career. And I can say this with all certainty, that has been so guided by Instagram. Have you guys heard of Instagram? I dunno if you're familiar with this platform.
That's
Michaela: Yeah.
Daren: like such a mainstay in our life. And I feel like I work at Instagram everything I think of or want to put out, it goes through that channel. And that's
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: fault. I put all my eggs into that basket a long time ago and I'm having a hard time taking 'em out and finding other baskets to put them in much as I try.
But it's such an easy, just, it's there it is, it's there. Everybody's kind of knows what to expect. But platform as you know, has just changed and, just shifted so dramatically over the, you know, I've been on for. least, you know, over a decade, if not more. And in that time, what used to just be like, Hey, here's a thing, here you go.
And it shows that the audience is now just a whole mess of like, nobody understands how it works and, anything like that. But the way that it used to be that was motivating to me was I'd do an illustration, I put it in a little square and you see it and everything's fine. And that's how my business kind of got started.
Squared image, oh, it goes on a [00:33:00] t-shirt. it was so simple. And then
Aaron: Yep.
Daren: around, it then became, we do videos now, and I was just like at an impasse for a second. I'm like, but I do squared non-moving images. Now what am I doing? And I started making videos. And so then I just became a bit more excited by the idea of.
performative. And I was like what am I performing? Okay well, I, I sell mugs, let me get hold of mug and do some kind of pithy, sort of like, self-deprecating. And I just developed this whole voice, that I've now become fairly synonymous for, is just this like anti-marketing, like I'm an artist, but I also have decided I'm gonna sell mugs for a living.
So here's a mug and do this whole shtick. And it's become this kind of characterization of myself. And so now the medium that I find most appealing is being performative, being on camera, talking, because I mean, the feed for me again, which used to be just the image I could put out a post and sell a bunch of shit so easily.
I mean, I literally hit a button. Now I'll put a post up and [00:34:00] it'll get. 10 likes, and I have, a braggable amount of followers where
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Daren: Oh, you must be killing it. No. 'cause it's just not, it's not that anymore. It's not as easy as just nobody's
Aaron: Yep.
Daren: things. And so I'm playing within the, confines of, what Instagram has presented.
And I am like, okay, this is what we're doing here. Okay. when I first started doing that. I was putting out about minute, long videos. And that was intentional because I wanted to then be able to post it in my stories. 'cause the story length was a minute long. Like really like paying attention to what are the constraints that this app has put in
Michaela: Mm.
Daren: and I will, work around those. was evident very quickly, but still, I just had locked into this. Like, I think I need about a minute to get my point across. And if anyone is willing to sit with me for a minute, there'll be a comedic payoff at the end. Trust me, in this process of a minute of your time, of course, no one has a minute to give to anything anymore.
And so I'm seeing these analytics where the drop-off rate is three to seven seconds. People are next one. So I'm
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: can I do this in three to seven seconds or get somebody's attention? And you [00:35:00] know, imagine if you had to, I'm sure you guys probably experienced this to some degree, we like your song, but could you make it three seconds long?
Aaron: Yeah. what are you Yeah. TikTok. that you wanna squeeze me into this thing? And
Daren: I can also just be like. I'm outta here, but I'm not, because I still see the value in the platform and I see the exposure and all this, benefit that's come from my years on this platform and the exposure that it's, garnered me.
And so I'm at this point now where I'm like, okay, I gotta tighten it up. Like I used to start every video with Hello Darren Thomas McGee of real fun. Wow, that's three seconds gone. So I cut that out. I don't say that anymore. So it's like,
I acknowledge that it's a weird kind of that I've found myself in as an artist where I'm, being this almost shill to a corporate entity or I guess playing by the rules that none of us came up with ourselves.
Like we didn't all collectively agree, I have three seconds of attention. It's just all these kind of psychological things where like you put everything ever in front of somebody, they're gonna want everything ever really quickly and like get that,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: And so it's this weird kind of psychological aspect that I don't think artists should have to [00:36:00] really consider because I might need a minute to get my art to you.
But
Michaela: yeah. I mean, We're all at the mercy of these. Yeah. We've all follow these corporate entities. I mean, Musically, you know, Spotify streaming has drastically changed it's always so interesting to me because I'm a Gemini, so I have like
Daren: Shoulda started
Michaela: personalities. I'm a Gemini on the cusp of TAUs, so I'm even more confusing, but I feel like anytime I make an argument, I can hear the opposing argument in my head. And so anytime I make a case, for why the system is against us or messed up, I hear people being like, oh, Boohoo. Like, the opposing viewpoint.
And so yes, on one hand the criticism could be, oh, all you artists, you just wanna sit around and create and you're so sad. You all these platforms. And on the other side it's like, you know what though? we need art. We need all artists to be supported, to be able to have an ecosystem of art on all levels.
You know, The working [00:37:00] class and the top tier and everything's moving so that only the top tier are able to survive. But yeah, musically, it's so interesting the relationship of art changing because the mediums that we have to use to share them are drastically changing. Before it was like, don't stream on Spotify. Then it was like, okay, yes, stream. because we wanna get on a playlist and then, okay, what playlists are popular? Okay, let's, we gotta make some like acoustic
coffee house versions of these songs. 'cause that's how we're gonna make money to then be able to make, or we need to make some more mellow, ambient music.
those are the playlists that make money to be on the background. And it's like, frustrating because it's dumbing down and homogenizing our art and not encouraging people to take risks.
Daren: Yes.
Michaela: Yes, there could be. Well That's just the way of the world. Figure it out.
And I think most people are doing that, but I think there's a middle ground of like, or these systems and corporations could just be [00:38:00] like better, they could be more mindful and decide hey, we wanna give livable wages for our streaming royalties. so that there are people who can like, have a middle class income as musicians.
Daren: to think that corporations cared about us at all. Uh, And yeah, I mean the, irony of it all for me in terms something like Instagram that doesn't exist unless us as individuals are putting something on it and that we're not being compensated for that I just go like, how any of us haven't just gone like, on this great content creator strike of just like, we're not
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: you, even if you're just posting photos of your, of your dinner, you are a content creator.
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Daren: That and you just open your thing, you'd be like, oh, there's nothing here. Yeah. 'cause no one's giving it. And so, I mean, I, get my creator content. Payouts from Instagram, and
I mean,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: An insultingly. I mean, Of course like, you know, insulting to me because I want more money.
We, they can also just be, this is what we figured out, we're gonna pay you for what you [00:39:00] contribute to this app. And so, we're not unionized, so we don't have a voice as like
Anything that, you know, this system we kind of just got duped into feeling like we are important and that we got our egos fed by likes and comments.
And I'm, more guilty of that than anybody. Like early on where I started posting my illustrations, I was getting that kind of feedback and it did
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: At the time. It did me, oh, I'm gonna keep drawing. I like this feeling. Also obviously like if it's only just likes that you're getting and you're not able to monetize it, it's gonna run out eventually.
'cause you're gonna have to go get a job and then collect your likes on the weekend. But I was to get likes, but also people would hire me or people would buy things. And so of course, you know, as much as I can bemoan the fact that like, I'm giving Instagram all this content and they're not paying me back.
I also benefited from that hugely. It was just like, if that platform wasn't there, then I wouldn't have got the exposure that I've gotten. I wouldn't be where I am now. And I think at this point I find it just frustrating for younger artists. Like I don't think that I. What I did and what I was able to achieve through Instagram is possible [00:40:00] anymore.
Like, I got in at the really good time when everything was organic and chronological, and there was no boosting posts or paid anything. There was no advertising on Instagram at all. And so it was just literally like this very kind of grassroots like, Hey, look at this picture I shared a minute ago.
And the person sees it when they open their app. Anyway. It's just all these things that it's just,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: Was anymore. And to your point, I don't think we can look towards the big corporate entities to do it anymore. And so then where do we go? Okay, so do you guys know of this essay called a thousand True Fans?
I forget who wrote it unfortunately, but you can just Google a thousand True Fans and the idea being as the title would imply. artist, musician. Perfect example is if you have a thousand true fans.
And that's not a huge number, but it's also not insignificant. And those thousand true fans gave you a hundred dollars a year, and however you space that out at merch
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: that's a hundred thousand dollars a year. That's, you know, in Tennessee money, that's pretty good. California, that's
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
Daren: so the, the
the
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: we are all chasing these million followers. great. I can attest to, I have [00:41:00] 360,000 followers. I do not have 360,000 fans. I do not have 360,000 people who purchase my art. That funnel
Aaron: Right.
Daren: really thin as you go down to like someone who actually will open every newsletter you send and you know, look out for stuff, even when they don't see that their algorithm hasn't delivered.
Oh, I wonder what this artist is up to. So that really
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: small and that's not a bad thing. That's a really good thing if you can get it down to this audience you're actually connecting with those people.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: It is possible. And so I guess, you know, 'cause we've all been diluted into thinking everyone needs a major deal with a record label.
And we all know how well that goes for artists where like, as if there's no more exploitation after that. And so really staying at this kind of grassroots level where we're not relying on huge corporate entities is certainly, like artists have long assisted doing that. And so I just, I think to not get lost and I say this, to hear myself say, it is just not get lost by the metrics and the numbers and all that.
Only 500 people liked what I did. [00:42:00] only 500
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's,
Daren: people and be like, all those people liked what you did. So, I've just
Aaron: mm-hmm.
Daren: Out of whack with like, what actually is important. And it is just like when somebody goes outta their way to comment something nice, like I really try my best to like say thank you for taking time out of your day.
'cause I know again, you were just cruising by here, going through everything ever in human history and what I did made you stop and say something nice. So that's really important.
Aaron: absolutely. It's, all something that I, love to touch on and shine light on. at the end of the day, it's the quality of connection, not the quantity of connection. We have all these corporations to push, like quantity. Like Look at these numbers, buy followers, buy subscribers, like all of that.
And it's like, what does it matter? You know? And I use that, thousand true fans analogy or, mathematics often. The other one I, bring up is like, you know, you look at Beyonce who has tens of millions of followers, and then you look at one of her posts and like the amount of likes she gets.
Is probably a smaller percentage of her overall following [00:43:00] than I don't even have 2000 followers, but like, I think my percentage wise is bigger, you know, my connection is greater. And then on a business end, it's easier to grow your average client value than it is to grow your client base.
Mm-hmm.
Daren: Yes.
Aaron: bring clients back, sell them something again, especially when you're talking about art as the thing that you're selling. people end up when they really love it, they relate to it on such a personal level, it becomes like an extension of them and it becomes something that is like, enriches their life, enriches their every day it is fulfilling to them to support.
Your art and to support that. To buy your art, to buy the latest mug, to buy whatever it is, to come to Mikayla's show, like it becomes this thing that can become this mutually beneficial relationship.
Daren: like to your point, it only really works on that, smaller scale. Because even just using Beyonce as an example, I forget the name of it, but there's a measuring scale of likability of a person. I don't
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: this information and I forget the name of it, so it's not a great way to start a conversation.
But Beyonce, who, you know, you would think [00:44:00] is this just kind of lovable figure in, in most people's eyes, she scores really, really low on that scale because she is so huge. And so now you've just like,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: given people an opportunity to be like, oh, I hate her. I. Really you
Aaron: Yep.
Daren: Like, what,
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: You know? So just giving yourself that position of like being in the, crosshairs of so many people's opinion. I think Dolly Parton actually is like scores the highest of like, anyone on the planet and,
Aaron: that, checks out.
Michaela: Yeah.
Daren: let's, we could break that down.
done, She's an anomaly.
She also does like things that are, you know, intentionally beneficial to humans in terms of like
Aaron: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Daren: Education, all that sort of stuff. But the point being is like, we shouldn't be striving to be Beyonce in many ways of like, I want 10 million followers.
And to your, point, Erin, is just like, that's vanity metrics. None of that stuff really, really matters. I mean, Not,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: I think this is the wisdom that we've garnered after being as old as we are. And
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: for long enough to just be like,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Daren: and I still have to remember that [00:45:00] every single is just like, it's the quality of it. I think that's just the perfect way to put it.
Michaela: I think one of the important reminders is that it's not your own personal failing or weakness, that you have to be reminded of that, and that you get caught up in letting this app and these corporate entities and these numbers change how we feel about ourselves and our art, because that's what they're designed to do.
Mm-hmm. Like, My, brother you know, he doesn't, quote unquote need social media for his career path, where we've all definitely feel very tied that we are, we need these apps to share our work to drive income, all of that stuff. My brother doesn't have that, and he was like, I read an article I think in The Atlantic or something that explained how these apps were literally designed. The same way that slot machines are like to prey on your, the psychology of addiction. And he was like, as soon as I read that, I got off. And I think about that a lot and how much work it [00:46:00] takes mentally to separate from that idea that more is better, that people are judging us, businesses are judging which is actually true.
Like of course, you know, in the music business, people look at your numbers and progressively. I think people are realizing that they can be such a farce that they don't actually translate. And I've done so much work to try and change my mindset of what my aspirations and dreams were when I was 30 years old in this business before the pandemic, before so much changed in my personal life before I started having kids of my vision of what my career was supposed to look like and what my career is now. And like you said, tying back to what our original conversation of tuning my instrument to be able to see the beauty and what this is and that, I don't even have 10,000 followers on Instagram, but because of the way that I share I have fans that have been.
[00:47:00] Invested in me, in my career, in my music, and now in the life that I share with them for, you know, 10 years and really learning like the value in that. Really small, but really committed fan base and how that can sustain somebody for life. And there's a lot to respect and admire for ourselves in
that. I think that there's as an artist or as a creative, there's no shame in making a living with what you're doing. I think that, again, in the Western culture, we all have to have jobs that occupy our time throughout the day. That then translates that time into money that puts a roof over our head.
Daren: Like all these simplified gamification ways that we exist in Western society and god damn if we did not hit the lottery with getting to do the thing we wanna do. And I think for me personally, in this period right now where I've kind of, my business is, feels like it's hit this plateau where.
through the business, we make about the same amount of money we've made for the past few years. There [00:48:00] hasn't been a huge spike. There hasn't been a huge decline. And so I'm at a place where I'm like, is there a potential for a really big spike here? Is it something that and again, to your point is just to not take that personally.
Like I feel like the quality of my work hasn't dipped or hasn't really got that much greater either. It's, that's also plateaued. And so it seems to be in line with just like, this is the output that I've put out. Do I need some new level of inspiration? And that's thinking on the creative side. Do I need to do a huge psychedelic situation and get this new unfound amount of inspiration that's an option.
Or on the business hat I put on, do I need to actually put money into meta, into the, business that we've all like, is you know, without argument still a viable means of, marketing. And that's one thing that I've been
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: because I'm like, I. Screw that. I'm not giving that guy or that business or
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: that
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: make us have long conversations about our mental health to give them money.
But
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: like,
yeah, I do, I do know still that that is like a place where people go whether it is to consciously shop that you can still convince somebody to shop. And I don't mean to do that in kind of a manipulative way [00:49:00] 'cause they have autonomy and they can make those decisions.
But my point being is this, like I have to make decisions that kind of go out of the artistry realm where like I don't feel like it's out of my artistic integrity to put money into marketing. 'cause I've never done that. And, that's what
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: have done forever and will continue to do is like, you gotta pay to get eyeballs on your stuff.
And so it is an interesting place to be an artist and to run a business. And then also to be like your own personal brand. The personal brand thing like that was not a thing 10 years
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: all
Aaron: No.
Daren: hey,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. real quick, am I hearing you correct that you don't spend money on meta on like boosting
posts or anything? a baby book last year Yeah.
Daren: Not even a sizable amount, maybe like a $50 a day budget, and it did well, and I just don't know how to run. I'm not good again, I don't know how to do that stuff and there's such an,
Aaron: Right.
Daren: whole thing. But yeah, no, I haven't, and
Aaron: It's intense.
Daren: close to meet with somebody who's like, Hey we will take your money and we will put it into thing and we will
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: money. So it's one of those things where I'm like,
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
Daren: is still a [00:50:00] thing that you can
Aaron: That's the thing.
Daren: yeah.
Aaron: also just wanna like give you a high five, throw some gold on you. Like To be able to run a business, have an employee grow the size you have without paying. You know, I know artists, so many musicians that when they put out a record, they yeah.
Marketing dollars. Yeah. Marketing dollars. Like Spend more on marketing
Michaela: than
Aaron: the art. Right. Yeah.
Daren: Yeah. know, Yeah.
Michaela: publicists?
Daren: I know there's a lot of people who can get their hands in your pocket of like, well, I'll make this better for you. And
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: Not always in this nefarious way. It's just, again, like there are a lot of people on the planet. There are a lot of people on the internet.
There's all these like ways where there are just like billions of people who have never heard of our art. And that's not because it's bad, it's because just the nature of the statistical, unlikeliness that they would, so there are systems in play. Gimme some money and I'll show it to a billion
Michaela: Yeah.
I know,
Daren: for itself at that point. 'cause it doesn't mean like, we'll show your art to
Aaron: right.
Daren: And a billion people will buy it. We show your art to a billion people and a maybe a thousand people like your art, you know?
Michaela: Right.
Aaron: Well, Even more so, you wanna make sure that your art is where you want [00:51:00] it to be. If you're gonna put that money in, because those people are gonna see it and like, first impressions are worth a lot. So it's like, when you spend money on one of these platforms, people are going to see it. they're taking your money. They're gonna deliver you the product that you are buying from them, which is eyeballs. And so like, you wanna make sure that whatever you're selling, You're proud of it and you can stand behind it because
Daren: absolutely. and they shall come. for
Michaela: I wanna also just note in what you were saying of like, there's the practical sense of needing to grow our businesses because cost of living increases every year. Rent goes up, like everything is increasing.
But I'm so interested in what that does to us mentally and emotionally of why we then think it's always growth, growth, growth, growth, growth bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. separating from the capitalistic system of like what would it feel like to just be content with what we have and making what we have.
But we live in this system that is like more, more, more, more, more, more, more,
Daren: By design, for sure. Yeah.
Michaela: yeah.
Daren: [00:52:00] know.
Michaela: That sucks.
Daren: Yep. Yep.
Michaela: we have a, very good friend who um, is a musician, but he's lived in a van for years and like, he now has a home, but he would love to just disappear and stare at the sun for days on end. Like that's a very legit dream of his, but I remember him and I talking about like, the trick is to want less and like, how do we do that?
And I have to like, check myself all the time because again, like going back to our beginning conversation, like we live in Nashville, Tennessee, which we don't love, as a city that much of like visually and don't feel like we have nature right at our disposal right here. It's a little, you have to be intentional, but like, we have.
A house that's big enough we have two kids. I have an office. We have this studio. Like we have a community. Like, But there's still this kind of drive of we need to make more. We need to get more. have this conversation all the time of like, how do you just feel like it's enough?
Daren: I guess there it's I think a Buddhist principle called the Hungry [00:53:00] Ghost. And so all of us have a hungry ghost inside of us, and so when you feed it, it just goes right through and and never sustains. And so I think that will always be a part, I think. Without trying to kill that or fill this endless void, which is impossible, have gratitude for the things you do have and not resentment or lack from the things that you don't have.
And so like I've been in this very much that wondering of, literally thinking if I had tomorrow $125 million in the bank and I just dropped my kid off at school coming back into town, how would my day be different now that I have on 25 million? I was on my way to the gym this morning.
Well, I'd still go to the gym. Maybe I'd have a gym at the house, but maybe not. Like, I think that that has to be the case. So just like tracking throughout my day and like saying what would more money in this moment mean? And often you're like, shit, then I don't have to worry about making art because I have all the money, then I'm like, is my creative impulse gone now?
Is that
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daren: Have to like, think about it. And then like, you know, not to be too stereotypical here. But that's how like people fall into like drug addictions and these chasing things where you're like, now I'm chasing something. Just to feel something,
Aaron: Yeah. [00:54:00] Mm-hmm.
Daren: That could potentially take away the drive that is in us, this inherent drive as creatives.
Who live in a Western world. And so we're creative cause we have that in us, but we're also creative because we have to be creative how to feed ourselves and stuff. And so it all plays in for sure. I don't know that we can ever again fill the Hungry Ghost. And so it's same thing we talked about earlier.
It's just having more of a mindful relationship with it. And it's like, yeah, I see that you're always gonna want more. I'll give you as much as I can, but we're doing okay. I think, look at us, we're spending the day just chatting with each other, musing
It's pretty good.
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Keeping that perspective, I love that. I'm sure it's like this in the art world, but you know, obviously we're in the, the music world, but like we know so many people that are, for lack of a better word, like trust fund kids, you know what I mean? which like, not coming from that can be frustrating, but at the same time, it's like you look at these people who are given this opportunity in life to not have to work. And what do they choose to do? They choose to make
art. And so it's like I will safely say like, if all of a sudden I woke up tomorrow morning and I had a hundred million dollars, I probably wouldn't create for a while, just because it's been my job.
I would go and do [00:55:00] like other so many other things, but eventually I'd come back to like, probably making way weirder art than I'm making now,
Daren: Yes, Yes.
Aaron: you know? But I would just go in.
Daren: sure.
Aaron: Yeah,
Daren: Well,
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: see until we
Aaron: Well,
Daren: hundred million dollars,
Michaela: Anybody out there just wants to, you know, gift it. we got a link to contact either of us
Aaron: in the show notes.
Daren: Wows. Hit it up.
Aaron: Yeah. Well, Darren, thank you for taking time. we'd like to wrap up with like the advice question. So being like, either it's something that somebody told you in your journey that's resonated and rings in your head all the time, or something that you would've told younger you when you were just stepping into your art as a career.
Daren: so I've, tried to write things over the years that end up just being pretty art prints, you know, with words. And I love topography. I love like laying out and seeing, oh wow, that goes
Aaron: Yeah.
Daren: So in the course of that, I've just come up with kind of bite-sized little things and they, it's worked.
Some of them are still, seven years old and they still resonate and I think they'll resonate forever 'cause they're kind of timeless, mindful things. Anyway, so one that [00:56:00] I say all the time and I put on mugs and tote bags and all sorts of things is, relax, you'll be dead someday.
it's just that idea that,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Daren: this ends at some point. And so in that time there's a lot, of opportunity to just like, not take stuff so seriously, relax. I really feel good about that one, kind of not, knowing and not stressing about it, but like, this is gonna end someday, you know?
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daren: relax.
Aaron: I love that. I like that. Well, Thank you for, sitting with us this morning sharing your wisdom.
Daren: Yeah, well done guys. You guys are doing great.
Congrats on the many years of, doing this and um, yeah, I'm,
Aaron: Thank you.
Daren: to be a part of it.
Michaela: Thank you. Thank you. All right. Have a great day.
Daren: you guys.