David Moore is a pianist, composer, and songwriter with many creative outlets, most notably his minimalist/ambient ensemble Bing & Ruth, which has put out records on 4AD and received praise from Pitchfork to Thom Yorke. We talk about his diverse creative appetites, writing retreats, the interconnectedness of everything, and embracing inevitable change in your creative processes as time passes.
David Moore is a pianist, composer, and songwriter with many creative outlets, most notably his minimalist/ambient ensemble Bing & Ruth, which has put out records on 4AD and received praise from Pitchfork to Thom Yorke. We talk about his diverse creative appetites, writing retreats, the interconnectedness of everything, and embracing inevitable change in your creative processes as time passes.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:05] Michaela: And I’m your other host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is still relatively new, thank you for coming back if you're returning listener. And thank you for checking us out if you are brand new.
[00:00:16] Aaron: of you that are returning listeners, we love hearing your feedback.
We read all the messages we get and all the emails we get. If you haven't yet, please consider taking 10 seconds to just rate us on your listening platform of choice. There's really no discovery algorithm with podcasts, so ratings are a great way to bring new listeners to the show. And the more listeners we have, the more guests we can have.
The more guests we have, the more ideas we can share with everybody. So if you could take 10 seconds to do that, that would be a huge help.
[00:00:43] Michaela: We're not your typical promo show, We like to talk to artists in their off cycle times and focus on behind the scenes tools and routines that they've found helpful to stay inspired, creative, and sane, while building a career around their
[00:00:57] Aaron: art.
With so much that is outside of our control in this industry. We wanted to focus on what is within our control. And so we decided to invite our friends and some of our favorite artists on to have the conversation about the other times that normally happen outside of the public eye and ask them the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your lives that you can sustain your creativity?
if you're returning and listener to the show, you know that Michaela and I. Are recovering jazz school kids. We both went to the new school for Jazz and Contemporary music, now called The New School for Music, I think. Hmm. In New York City. Our guest on episode eight was Melanie Charles, who we went to school with, and we have another guest today who we also went to college with.
His name is David Moore. He is a pianist, composer, songwriter. He writes for his own projects, as well as been a sideman in a bunch of other projects. The project that he's most known for is an ambient ensemble called Bing in Ruth. They're on four a D records. Tom York loves them as one of their biggest fans
[00:02:00] Michaela: David is another jazz school kid who went his own. Way. He didn't stay in the jazz music world necessarily. as you mentioned, Bing and Ruth is an ambient experimental music, but he also has an old time band, the pile drivers. He's very passionate about old time fiddle music.
He also has, he mentioned he has a psychedelic alt country band.
[00:02:23] Aaron: Yeah. did a poor job as interviewers on this cuz I'm not sure if he's referring to this songwriter project where he writes lyrics and sings called Pepper Johnson, which is available on Bandcamp. But yeah, he's,
[00:02:35] Michaela: to me is a really creatively curious person who has not stayed within one lane.
And we talked about that. What. That does, how that affects your business life as a creative, when your creative heart wants to pursue a lot of different avenues.
[00:02:54] Aaron: Yeah. We loved that. David was really honest about coming out and being like, you know what?
I'm lost right now. Bing and Ruth has become the thing that everybody wanted there are, as we've said, multiple aspects to his creativity, that also exist. so we talk about how he juggles that,
[00:03:09] Michaela: yeah. He also had some really beautiful insight as he's been learning how to give himself permission to experience life. How living with intention feeds back on itself and how everything we do in life is connected to each other.
[00:03:24] Aaron: Yeah. And, long time listeners of the show, long time for the 20 episodes that are out, will notice that we talk a lot about social media and we talk a lot about streaming on this show. And David took a minute to really note the positives of. Streaming, from Spotify, but also from the early days of streaming like Napster and Limewire and how that has really benefited his music.
And I think that goes without saying a lot on this podcast is that there are a lot of positives to all of this, even if the financials haven't quite evened out yet. This is a really great, well-rounded conversation that we had with David and we're excited to share it with you. So without further ado, here's our conversation with David Moore.
[00:04:01] Michaela: How are you doing?
[00:04:02] David: Oh, good. Monday.
[00:04:04] Aaron: Yeah, we're feeling that full on.
[00:04:07] David: Yeah. No, I'm doing good. I uh, New York is fucking gorgeous,
[00:04:12] Aaron: Yeah. Ittis the season.
[00:04:14] David: very happy about that.
how's Nashville going?
[00:04:17] Aaron: It's good. It's hot. Yeah. It's like hot and humid all of a sudden.
[00:04:21] David: Oof.
[00:04:22] Michaela: it's the hard part about Nashville. It's like spring and spring has been slow to hit this year. And then anytime it's spring, I'm like a beautiful day. I instantly get anxiety because I'm like, summer's coming and it's so disgusting and it feels like it hit yesterday.
It's like 85 in humid.
[00:04:40] Aaron: This is gross. we're gonna boycott the summer this year and spend uh, we're, we're going to Europe next week for like three weeks and then,
[00:04:47] David: Oh wow.
[00:04:48] Aaron: And then when we come back, we're basically making our way up to Maine for like July. For July and going to Michigan and just getting outta here cuz it's too
[00:04:56] David: That's awesome.
That's the vibe.
yeah,
[00:04:59] Aaron: for sure. You know what it's
[00:05:00] David: I just got, yeah, I just got back from Europe a couple weeks ago actually.
[00:05:04] Aaron: Were you over there doing Bing stuff or solo stuff or?
[00:05:07] David: I made a record with this guitar player, and it came out I guess, last month,
So we were
[00:05:12] Michaela: the one with Steve Gunn?
[00:05:13] David: yeah. Yeah. So we were doing a bunch of shows for that.
[00:05:17] Michaela: Awesome. How was it?
[00:05:18] David: It was great. shows were killer and we were both really feeling the evolution of the show,
Cool. Beautiful.
Felt good to get out and play. It's been a while since I've done a proper tour, been like over a year and then three years before that.
[00:05:33] Aaron: Yeah. On that. Thanks for wanting to be a part of this. you're actually our first guest where lyrics aren't like the primary
[00:05:40] David: uh,
[00:05:40] Aaron: Outlet
[00:05:41] Michaela: focus of
[00:05:41] Aaron: your work. So we're excited to have you on here and see how
[00:05:44] David: for having me.
[00:05:45] Aaron: I know. You basically have, three creative outlets that you've used, not counting like your own thing, like you did the Pepper Johnson thing did you ever play shows with that or is that just a record
[00:05:55] David: No, well, I did a couple, like acoustic shows, I tried to get a band together at one point, but it was like, Just kind of at the edge of when it was easy to put a band together, like when you're in your twenties and it's like nobody has anything to do,
Yeah. so it's easy to get a band together. I started to get one together, but it just didn't really work out.
My heart wasn't really in the live show. I just liked making those records and I never expected anything to happen from them and nothing did. So it was fine.
[00:06:24] Aaron: It was perfect. Yeah. Mission accomplished. Yeah. And the other one's, the pile drivers.
[00:06:29] David: power drivers.
[00:06:30] Aaron: rad. I assume there's not much happening with them currently cuz everybody's scattered. Is that
[00:06:34] David: Yeah. That's the theme of my, you know, musical life at the moment is everybody's just scattered. I'm the last man standing in New York.
[00:06:43] Aaron: Yeah. I, I feel
[00:06:44] Michaela: that. Yeah. But you left New York for a little bit, right?
[00:06:47] David: I left New York. Yeah, my wife and I moved down to Black Mountain, North Carolina, just outside of Asheville. And we lived, we had five acres on top of a mountain. we were at the end of like a two mile, one lane, gravel road situation. Very isolating. It was great for, refilling my cup I guess, but it wasn't great for giving me places to pour that cup out,
[00:07:12] Aaron: Gotcha. Yeah, was that a pandemic move or were you guys looking for a place
[00:07:17] David: That was a pandemic move. I mean, She's from North Carolina. My wife is, and um, she'd lived in Asheville before. We were looking for a place in upstate New York, during the pandemic it was just completely insane. I got basically laughed out of a realtor's office. And then yeah, we found a place on Craigslist and just took a chance in Black Mountain.
And, our apartment's very small and around month eight of the pandemic, we were like, we've gotta get outta here. And then our dog died, and then we were like, we need a change of scenery,
[00:07:46] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. I totally get that. one of my main reasons why I wanted to get you on here and ask you questions is, just witnessing some of your creative process around like all the Bing and Ruth music and how you've taken intentional time away from New York and away from your normal situation to create for that project.
I guess I'm mainly thinking of like the time that you spent in Winters working on, I guess it was two records ago, working on the Farfisa record, right? the transistor organ record. something you've done for a while or was that a similar situation where you're like, I need to get outta here to get these songs out?
[00:08:22] David: I've always had a really interesting relationship with working at home. It's been more difficult for me, I think, for the reasons that you would expect. Home is full of love and home is full of wonderful things, but all those things can be very distracting. So I found, it's not that I. Was like, I'm gonna go to California to write all my records. But it's just kind of ended up that way. I, I usually end up in California, somewhere winters, which was, Northern California or, LA I, I wrote most of the Oregon records ago, in Point Doom Malibu,
Which was really beautiful.
and I just find that like, kind of posting up somewhere for a couple weeks away from home is just so creatively stimulating for me. And sometimes I don't get much out of it, but sometimes I do. And, most of my records have been written that way in these spurts.
[00:09:18] Aaron: Yeah. Tying a few spurts together, or is it really once the faucet opens up, you kind of just chase it down?
[00:09:23] David: I don't know. A lot of, writing for me is about developing a language for whatever project I'm working on at the time, setting the boundaries for it and figuring out what kind of story I want to tell. And a lot of times that starts with like free writing and coming up with kind of anchor pieces.
Like, I really love these three or four songs and how does this fit into the story of the record and what other kinds of songs are needed. So there's not like a method to it, but I can look back and kind of see different patterns and see different ways that I've gone about doing things,
[00:09:56] Michaela: In your daily life at home, if you're not on the road, are you getting ideas for compositions? Are you writing at all, or is it it gets saved for those retreat times?
[00:10:07] David: I'm riding a lot more at home now than I ever have, and I think that was because of the pandemic. It forced me to work at home. My home life is like very different now than it was, 10 years ago too.
Mm-hmm. you know, I'm married. I have a wonderful dog. I have a lovely home in Brooklyn and friends, and, being home is a very different experience than it was.
I've been trying to channel that energy into, working and figuring out how to write and create. In my home zone, which I think is gonna be really vital for the next 10 or 20 years that I'm gonna be working. I can't just ship off somewhere for weeks at a time, which is fine.
I love where I'm at right now, and I, I love the process, but I'm still working on kind of carving out time of like, okay, I'm not gonna run to the grocery store, I'm not gonna answer emails. I'm gonna focus for three or four hours
[00:10:59] Michaela: Yeah, I find that so challenging and we, living in Nashville is interesting because so much of the songwriter culture is like people are, writing and co-writing every day, or that's what it feels like. I'm perceiving everybody's doing. I realized we had a conversation last week talking about traveling and trying to turn off and really have a real vacation and not be, always in writer's mode.
And I've since then been going through so many of my songs of like, oh, I wrote that song on, started that song on that trip, or that song came on that trip. Or how much for me, writing and creativity comes from being elsewhere and I have such a hard time writing at home. And now that we have a two year old, it's harder for me to be like, I'm gonna go away for a few days and just go write and also reconcile I.
Probably do need to do that and have a partner that would support that because this is my job and I need to make more music, now that I have a child, it's this weird like, is that really self-indulgent to be like, I need to go away for a few days so I can write. I think that's sometimes one of the many challenges of living a, life that is built on your creativity and dependent on your creativity and what the things you need to do to nurture it.
That can sometimes a more like capitalist driven society can seem like, okay, you're really self-indulgent and needy and whatever. All those kind of things that go through my head
[00:12:28] David: No I, I feel you. There's, I think about my sister, who is a pretty high up finance person for a startup, and she has two kids and travels all the time for work without even thinking about it. something there I think not just with your travel schedule, but just in general, like trying to like release guilt that you might feel because being creative is so much fun.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
it's hard to justify having that if you have other responsibilities. the end of the day, you're right. I always hate using this, but it is a job and it does require things of you,
[00:13:05] Aaron: Yeah it's funny how putting the job label on things helps prioritize it, you know? which is like the whole money. Yeah. Which is like the whole dichotomy of, why we're having this conversation. It's like, how do we balance these two kind of disparate things that are really based on the same thing, which is creating, and it's just strange that, I guess in our society, putting the labeled job on something, oh, well no, no, this is important. This justifies this and this and this. besides just white knuckling the prioritization while you're home, have you found tools that make it easier to prioritize your writing? maybe even just plain exploration of ideas and like new language while you're at home. Things that you would do, in California.
[00:13:48] David: Yeah. you're getting at something interesting here, which is process changes over time and it changes as we get older. And it changes as we get further along in our, career, art, life, whatever you wanna call it. So I feel like I'm constantly facing new challenges in terms of my workflow.
Like what's working for me now and trying to build out that focus time at my instrument, becomes more of a challenge as I get older. And I, and it's been that way since I was 18, every year that goes by, it gets a little bit harder to like, the world off and focus on your craft. So for me right now, I struggle to find that balance sometimes.
If you guys. Have any tips? Let me know.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, it's funny, when we talked about doing this today, I was, worried that I, still feel lost. it's constant
Troubleshooting, constantly trying to figure out that really worked.
Why did that work? That didn't work. Why didn't that work? some days you can sit down and write 10 songs, and some days you can play for 10 hours and write nothing.
[00:14:52] Aaron: that's really
[00:14:52] David: to wrangle.
[00:14:53] Aaron: Yeah. The thing that's really deflating for me is this worked last week. Why is it not working this week? can be that quick it's fleeting.
[00:15:00] Michaela: I also think, part of the reason we got the idea to want to do this podcast is I think most people feel the way that you just described.
Mm-hmm. because of the pandemic of everybody's life changing, we kept having all these conversations with friends who were reevaluating everything because we were all on treadmills doing our path, and then it all got taken away and. We felt like as it started coming back, we would talk to more and more people behind the scenes and it would be like, yeah, I'm back in it, but I'm struggling with this, or I'm struggling with this.
Or, just more searching and questioning. And meanwhile it doesn't look like that when we look on the internet and kind of see what we all present to each other. we wanna have these deeper real conversations we're all in our, thirties, mid to late thirties, and going we've all been in this for 10, 15 plus years and really seen, like you said, process changes and approach to your career changes, idea of success changes.
So when you're in your twenties and you're really like, I'm gonna do anything I can where my whole life is focused on music.
[00:16:09] David: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:09] Michaela: And then you continue on in life and you realize, oh, I like having a family and a partner and a dog and there's all these other things I want in life, but I also wanna keep this going.
But there's all these shifts that need to happen how do we do that? How do we honor that? How do we listen to what we need and how do we exchange ideas to help each other through it? Which is what is fascinating to me. And I think about, I learned so much from seeing how other people live and how other people create, listening to you talk about how you would focus your work, but then also knowing.
All the different kind of musical endeavors you have spent the last decade plus maneuvering. And not just being like, this is what the one thing I do and this is the box that I stay in, in order to build a career. I think is another way to approach music and creativity. That's really interesting. I was thinking back of like how I met you or knew of you was we all went to the new school, we must have been there at the same time, but I don't think I knew you
[00:17:12] David: I was a phantom at the new school. I had like my 10 people that I played with and I just didn't talk to anyone else.
Yeah,
[00:17:19] Michaela: yeah. But you played with Jeremy Viner and Jeff Rattner and Jeff Ratner's. Aaron's very close friend. We started dating, so then I got to know Jeff and so I knew of you from the jazz school, and then I started working at Nonesuch Records and Ronan, who did the, Wordless music
[00:17:35] David: Wordless music.
[00:17:36] Michaela: He told me about you as someone, for some reason he was like, I think you should know this guy, David Moore. And then I became friends with Kristen Andresen and the old time Bluegrass World in New York. And
[00:17:49] Aaron: you're like, what the fuck? He's here too. Yeah.
[00:17:52] Michaela: was like, this guy is everywhere.
[00:17:54] David: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:17:56] Michaela: Yeah. So is that just is that inspiring to you? Have you ever thought maybe I should just focus on one thing, or is it no, my creative heart wants me to have all these different avenues, so of course I would do this.
[00:18:08] David: You're getting it. Probably one of my biggest struggles throughout my career, which is that I've always tried to make the music that I'm really passionate about and not worry about genres. I'm really passionate about old time fiddle music. I play banjo and I an old time band, the pile drivers, and I play a ton of old time music and I do psychedelic all country music under a different name and this and The issue that I've had in my career is that being in Ruth, became everything. We got signed to a really big label, booking agents, management, the whole thing, which none of my other projects had. They're just completely independent. So being and Ruth took off in a way that I really didn't expect.
And the way I explain it to people is like I'm a chef and I create lots of different dishes because I enjoy creating lots of different dishes. And then somebody came through the door one day and said that, I just want you to do that
Hmm. And cook only that dish.
That's my favorite dish. And I was like, great. Somebody wants to pay me to make this dish that I've been making for free for a decade. Um, Awesome. But then it wears on you and having my whole life focus around. Just one part of my artistry was, hard on me in ways that I didn't expect.
And, I'm not shirking responsibility here. I, stopped doing some of the other stuff for reasons that were within and, not within my control. know, People moving away, but also like, this is the thing that's bringing the people in and paying the bills and doing that.
So I guess I better focus on that. And at the end of the day, everything suffers when you're not true to yourself and what you want to do. And, the issue that I'm having right now, and, you know, I don't wanna reveal too much cuz this could all change tomorrow, but one of the issues I'm having right now is I've basically written enough material for three new Bing and Reef records at this point, but, I recorded a record, actually me and Jeff and Jeremy recorded an album, about a year and a half ago, and I, I shelved it. I didn't like it.
now I'm in a very experimental mode putting the experiment back in experimental music. And part of doing experiments is they don't work.
I think right now I'm just thinking a lot about what am I passionate about? What are the things that get me moving? What are the things that get me really excited to work in the studio and just follow those ropes and not worry about oh, well, being in Ruth, fans like this. don't know, I put out a weird record for the last Bing and Ruth record that was very different than any other ones we'd done. So I'm, super proud of that. And, we'll see where this next thing goes.
[00:20:39] Aaron: Yeah. since Bing and Ruth has the machine around it, did it take some muscle from your end to shelve that record, or does you know the team surrounding Bing and Ruth understand that and support your decisions?
[00:20:54] David: send it to anyone.
No one knew I made it except the
[00:20:57] Aaron: don't ask. Don't tell.
[00:20:59] David: My wife heard it even she was like, this isn't your best work. And I was like, I know.
oh.
at this point I, I really don't have any interest in putting out records that aren't the best record I've ever put out.
[00:21:09] Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Understandable. the material that you wrote for that record? Is it still on the table to rerecord? Is it a compositional thing or is it a performance thing?
[00:21:18] David: Some of the tunes I think have a lot of potential. but maybe one song we recorded I was like, super excited about and I felt like this is it, you but it was also very different.
So that was tough, but it was also freeing, it was basically most of the music that I'd written while we lived in North Carolina, for being in Ruth. I wrote a lot of other stuff in North Carolina that I love, but has nothing to do with banging
Mm-hmm.
[00:21:42] Michaela: Do you get, pressure or questions from your team, your label and management of because of business stuff, I need to record a new record?
[00:21:51] David: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:52] Michaela: yeah,
[00:21:52] David: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, It's when you make a living and everything is in these cycles, you know, the more, pressure from that, that I feel, the harder it is for me to write. So it puts me in a pretty dark place.
[00:22:04] Aaron: Yeah, that seems really common.
[00:22:07] Michaela: Uh, Yeah. And it's even worse with, I don't know, I saw something, a post the other day that was just like the way that we consume music, our, the business, the industry now being. Focused all around streaming, and not just streaming, but algorithms. I've heard the word algorithm so many times you have to feed the algorithm.
If you don't every time, like you're a few months out from an album release, then all your numbers start going down, so you need to feed it. And there's like a cadence to how much you put music on the platform but then there's so much music out there that even music fans are feeling oversaturated.
There's so much to listen to. And I'm like, as a professional, I feel pressure of, oh my God, I have to hurry up and write a new record because every day my numbers are dropping and then all the people that support me are gonna go away. but in my body I'm like, but I'm not ready. You know?
[00:23:06] David: Yeah, do know it's tough. Think I'm still trying to figure out what it means to make a living off of being creative, And as far as the, algorithm goes yeah, I hear a lot of talk about that too. I've never been I've never been a social media guy and I know that's probably hurt me in my, career, I guess if you wanna call it.
I do my best, I engage with as I am, but, I'm an old man at this point. That's a young person's game.
[00:23:33] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:23:33] David: Uh, the generational divide is crazy, but there is, a ton of music out there right now. And I don't know, the way albums are rolled out, like it's very much, just feels like the same playbook and I'm just bored of it a little
[00:23:46] Michaela: Yeah, yeah.
[00:23:48] David: well,
You announced the album and you put out one song, you know, and then, stoke the fire again four weeks later with another new song and then you stoke the fire a week before release one more final news song and then the album comes out and it's all, everybody wants to talk about for 48 hours.
[00:24:04] Aaron: Yeah, exactly. It feels stale before it even starts, and To be fully judgmental. I notice a lot of labels just don't give a shit anymore, and they seem to be out of ideas and they're like, we're doing this. and I always relate it to like, building a fire. They get their scrap paper together and they put like a little kind a frame over the top and they light it and they're like, cool, if this turns into a raging bonfire, we'll throw more wood at it.
And you're like, that doesn't work that way. Like,
[00:24:35] David: it's gambling, running a labels, gambling
[00:24:38] Michaela: for sure.
[00:24:39] David: you know, if you're really good at gambling and you know when to, throw your chips down and I've been lucky to work with a couple really good labels that seem to really value the art side of things.
and stand behind you. You know, the label that I was on I finished my current deal, so I'm actually without a label at the moment um, which feels really good and freeing. But I I'm out of my last deal a lot of really good things to say about my last label. And one of the things is they did stand by me even though I wasn't selling the records that the national were selling and Big Thief were selling.
And I was probably one of the lower selling artists on the label, but they supported me and they, gave me a lot of resources to, do my thing and I really appreciated that.
[00:25:27] Aaron: Yeah, that's great. That was kinda like the subtext of what I was saying is that, that kind of wait and see approach from labels. What's happening is that it shelves somebody's art, it doesn't allow that art to reach. The audience that maybe it should reach or people that want to hear it.
we have favorite artists that put out records that we just don't hear about, cuz there's so much going
[00:25:47] Michaela: on. I'm on a, on Y rock records out of, North Carolina and I think a lot of labels are also dealing with whiplash of constantly trying to figure out how do we promote records anymore.
It's challenging. For everybody. I think labels are like, oh, okay. We were, we promoted records by our bands and artists going on tour. Oh, that went away. Okay. Because we lost record sales when streaming became it. And you have to stream a millions and millions to make any money to recoup the spend.
And making records still costs a lot of money and promoting records still
[00:26:23] David: even more money than it used to.
[00:26:25] Michaela: Yeah, Yeah. publicists costs more than actual recording of records most of the time. Like I think everyone's trying to figure out how to get music to people.
Also, music journalism is going through a bunch of fuckery now so I think the industry is kind of in upheaval, and I think everybody's really trying to figure out like, do we do to feel. Good about what we're making, make it in the time that we want, and like just make a living, not even trying to get rich, like just survive
[00:27:01] David: Well, well, It's the erosion of, not to get too political, but it's the erosion of the middle class
In the creative industries. at least in music. I don't know about other creative industries, but it's happening everywhere, all over the country in, pretty much everything.
you know, the middle is getting squeezed out and you're either on the right side of that or the wrong side of that. inspiring watching the writers strike right now. Cuz there's a lot of problems in the music industry that I don't even really understand, I've heard that journalism right now is Crazy.
And labels are going through it and shuttering and, everyone's trying to figure out what to do and is just, the landscape's totally different now than it was when I started.
Yep.
And it's just kind of about figuring out how do I fit into this new model and, like you said, like we're not trying to get rich, but we worked really hard to do what we do and we're good at it
no reason that we shouldn't be able to make a living
Doing it.
I mean, if people are listening to it, if you got streams, if you're selling some records, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do it for a living.
[00:28:09] Aaron: Exactly. We had this same conversation with Lola Kirk who straddles the line between music and film. And so she kind of sees two different industries and, you know, explicitly talking about the music industry and how, you're the struggling, you're Taylor Swift, and there's not a lot of room in between, it feels
[00:28:27] David: yeah. one thing that's interesting is that are a lot more open about it since the pandemic. I've had a lot of conversations with friends that are like, man, I'm really, really struggling right now. can't pay their rent, can't eat. I've never seen it quite like this before.
And brilliant people that should just be given all the money in the world to do, what they do.
[00:28:48] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:28:49] David: tough.
[00:28:49] Aaron: People in some other countries that have a more robust, arts Council, for instance, would be able to receive grants or, assistance to spend more time creating and less time being like, how am I gonna pay my landlord?
[00:29:03] David: Yeah, I had a drink a mutual friend, I'm sure Tommy Crane the other day. And he's been living in Montreal and he's a US citizen, but he's, basically been living off of the drippings of the grant system. You know, People get these grants to make records and hire him to make the record.
And just hearing about the grant scene in Canada it's inspiring and infuriating.
[00:29:26] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. I mean we, just, cause we have Europe on the brain cause we're about to leave, the last time we were in Stockholm was like right before the pandemic. And we met a pedal steel player there. He was American, but his wife was Swedish and he had been in Sweden.
He moved there from la He had been there for less than a year and was on one year, paid paternity leave as a
[00:29:46] Michaela: self-employed pedal steel player. Mm-hmm.
[00:29:49] David: Yeah. Yeah. I, I have a friend who's a filmmaker in France, and if he doesn't work a certain amount of hours every year, like the government, pays him, but it's weird.
[00:29:59] Michaela: so wild. Yeah. And that, I mean, that was the other thing, like in the music business, because this is the only industry I'm in, is that I would see, you know, even friends who are touring and seeming like they're selling tickets, maybe like 500 tickets or more a night. And then I would have the conversations and hear how much money they actually lost on tour because of everything.
And so even the people that I look at and think, they're succeeding. They can sell more than I can They're also still in debt and losing money and scrambling to figure out, okay, I guess I gotta do a solo tour in between, or hustle some of the side gigs when I come home because they're still not making money because everything costs so much.
as someone who is constantly trying to get to truth, maybe that's the entertainment industry and that's what I'm at odds with, but that I'm like, this feels like we're all, putting forth this facade that's so not real.
[00:31:00] David: I
[00:31:02] Michaela: maybe how you said you're feeling like bored and sick of the cycle. I'm feeling bored and sick of that aspect of entertainment. I've had a big shift where I don't feel like I'm an entertainer. I'm like, I'm a storyteller and I tell stories through songs and connect with people.
I'm not. An entertainer.
[00:31:20] David: Yeah. I think that people are being a little more open about that sort of thing now. I've needed to do things to supplement my income, in the last few years as. We come out of the pandemic in a couple years of living off savings, not being able to tour and sort of depleting that and New York is just crazy expensive. So actually do like video editing for 10 hours a week just to close the gap. And I'll just be honest about that and I'd like to see everybody being more honest because the only chance we have is if we all work together again, like not to bring up the writer's union again, but to bring that up.
Like it's inspiring to see what happens when everybody gets together and is like, wait, this is actually pretty messed up and we need to like demand some change. I'm not the one to lead that, but I'll sign any piece of paper you want me to, I'll go on the street and I'll hold a sign.
[00:32:16] Michaela: we've talked about this on here as well, of this kind of idea of, okay, I can be proud if no matter what I'm making my money at the end of the day from my music and that I struggle with because I'm like, yeah, that's great, but I don't think that those of us who supplement our income otherwise should feel like that somehow has some say on our artistry or our validity as A member of the music community or our level of professionalism. I've always worked other jobs. my other job is still music. I do songwriting coaching and teach lessons. that work gets fed by my, putting out records and having fans of my music who wanna work with me.
But if I took that out of the equation, I wouldn't be able to live off of playing shows. I often have to supplement my tours to pay for tours, like,
[00:33:13] David: Yeah. The most genius musician I know works at a wine shop.
[00:33:17] Aaron: I think we know who, yeah, he comes to mind often.
[00:33:19] Michaela: Um, well, Aren't there also like legendary stories of Steve Rice or. John Adams, or in the early days, where even when they've had big pieces performed and produced and recorded. And John Prine being a, a mailman of there's no shame in that at all.
[00:33:34] Aaron: it's a really weird industry that distilling it down to like purely business terms, our product is recorded music or music, period. And to make a really great product takes a lot of time, but there's no way to close the gap when you're taking the time to improve your product. You have to then take on other things. it's a business in an industry that currently incentivizes fast fashion in a way. how quickly can I turn out this stuff that is, mass market, easily consumable, raisin brand for everybody.
Exactly. Mm-hmm. Easily forgettable. my dad's a woodworker, so you think about custom made cabinets or furniture or staircases, all of these things that take an insane amount of craft that I equate to, the level of the art that we all make in our community makes, but it's such a high ticket item, and it validates and supports the time that it takes to create that product.
But that's just not, Possible, at least in the American system, again, grants, can close that gap and can allow us to create a better product in a way. But I don't see how that's possible currently.
[00:34:36] David: I also want to be really conscious of sounding bitter in any way. Because I think that the nature of how the music industry has always operated is that it, changes. I benefited greatly from, the sort of tail and, Napster was before I'd started putting records out, but like the early streaming Rhapsody like, the later file sharing Limewire and stuff.
And then when Spotify hit, I saw a lot of advantages from that. So that transition worked really well. As it settled, as the business model has settled, it's, become harder. But I also just think I'm really inspired by what young people are doing right now. there's a few musicians out there that I'm just okay we're gonna be okay.
And watching them navigate the business is like, oh, So many of my complaints about the business side of things come from like, things aren't what they used to be. that's what I know. And, that's fine. And I have legitimate issues with I'm not like a guy who puts songs out all the time, the way things work now is you kind of gotta do that in order to please the algorithm or whatever.
some people do that and some people do it really well, and that's some people's thing. I use Apple Music because I'm old school and I like to. Pick out a record and put it on and listen to it all the way through. And that's what I like to do. I'm not so much of a playlist guy or discovery mix guy, even though that's cool too.
I meet fans at shows all the time that found out about me through discovery.
[00:36:05] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Yep.
[00:36:06] David: there's real positives to that side of thing too, but making the economics work is tough.
[00:36:12] Aaron: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I agree too. Like the fact that, the predominant model these days is that everybody has every song ever in their pocket that they can listen to at any time. Is really incredible. And I find, hope in that, as you look back over the medium that music has released on, it's changed like every decade and it's sped up in the last 20 years.
vinyl to cassette, which is a little bit easier to cd, which is a little bit easier MP3 player that you have to like, download and put it on to streaming. And as far as like a distribution and like a medium, I've tried really hard to think like where it could go from here and I, don't think there is
[00:36:48] Michaela: It's going to be implanted in our
[00:36:49] Aaron: brain next. Yeah. Right. Ma Matrix upload, think about it and it plays. But in the end it's streaming is just streaming to your brain instead of your phone. But, my hope is that model of distribution, the industry can coalesce around that stability You know, now we'll just get a different mix of Abby Road every four years to, to satisfy.
[00:37:10] David: Which I'm here for, honestly.
[00:37:12] Aaron: I, I've been really forcing Abby Road on our the Beatles on our daughter lately, and she's said all that Abbey Road, which is fine. And some of those new mixes are pretty amazing actually.
[00:37:20] David: Yeah, I
[00:37:21] Aaron: Um, um,
[00:37:22] David: Always been I'm a Beatles freak. So the early stereo mixes drive me insane.
[00:37:27] Aaron: where the drums are just
[00:37:28] David: to the original Yeah, like ticket to ride.
Like the original stereo mix is the drums are here
[00:37:34] Aaron: yeah,
[00:37:34] David: I really appreciate the remaster and the remixing going on with the Beatles catalog.
[00:37:39] Aaron: For sure. I wanted to circle back real quick, and you mentioned that there's a few, like artists that you really admire, like what they're doing and how they're navigating things. Can you name a few of those people?
[00:37:48] David: Yeah. one artist that I've befriended and he just sent me his new album and it's incredible. He's a. player named Hayden Pedigo, you might be hearing more about him. But he just signed with Mexican summer I don't know that much about it, but I know that he's great and I know that his music is great and I see him navigating, social media in a way that feels really uh, genuine
And doesn't feel like I'm doing this to like, please the algorithm and all that stuff.
Like he's just a genuine weirdo
I really appreciate how he is making instrumental music right now. I mean, instrumental music is, one of my big passions. love singing obviously, but I don't know. I'm really coming around to instrumental music, not just in ambient or classical terms, but in like country terms and like rock terms.
I'm really enjoying that. So yeah, Hayden is great. I just befriended this free jazz sax player named Zoe Amba who, We did a couple festivals together, in Europe a few weeks ago, and she's just insane. She's 22 and just one of the most brilliant saxophone players I've ever heard. So she's great.
I Those are like a couple people that are really inspiring me at the moment to
[00:39:02] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:03] David: Be like, okay, we're gonna be okay.
[00:39:05] Michaela: In addition to that, cuz I really appreciate your honesty through this conversation of saying I'm in a moment where I feel a little lost or transitional or figuring stuff out. Cause I think sometimes in these conversations people feel like they should come on or have these conversations when they're in a good place, a thriving place and be able to talk about what's gotten them there.
And I think it's really important to. Recognize we go through all these ups and downs. We might feel really zinging right now, and a year from now, it's not gonna feel that way. So when you're in this kind of transitional period, are there things that you seek out, practices that you find solace in have found over experiencing life in these different periods of time enough to know, okay, this is gonna help me wade through this get through this time, reconnect with myself?
Do you have anything that you go to in those moments?
[00:40:00] David: I like walking. I take lots of walks, with my headphones and I work on songs on walks. A lot of my songwriting comes away from the instrument. But I think the biggest thing for me is in those sort of off times, is giving myself permission to experience life
Without pressure. Which has traditionally been very difficult for me.
Put a lot of pressure on myself all the time, and if I'm not making something, I'm beating myself up for not making it. it's a very unsustainable way to live and it is just a recipe for a very unhappy existence. I think for me, I've been trying to learn how to decouple like, my worth as a person from my worth as a creator.
And, as I do get older, I just turned 40 a few weeks ago. Thank you. So as I do get older, I'm trying to give myself permission to like experience the happiness that's there. you know what, today I'm, I'm not gonna sit at the piano. And I'm not gonna force myself through this mood I'm in to like create something today.
I'm gonna go to the beach with my wife and I'm gonna have a margarita and I'm gonna get a tan and I'm just gonna chill and I'm gonna be happy.
And once I started doing that, I'm still working on it, but once I started doing that, it freed up a lot of places in my mind to like, when I do go back to the instrument, I just feel so much more full and so much more capable of creating something of value instead of creating something that I need to like, make me not feel crappy.
for a long time the happiest moments in my life were, when I wrote a song, I really felt good about, now the happiest moments of my life. Still when I wrote a song I feel good about, but also, Laying with my wife and dog and it's a balance, but I'm learning every day, trying to figure it out.
[00:41:46] Aaron: it's a practice.
[00:41:47] David: It's a practice.
[00:41:48] Aaron: Even just the way you said that. Give myself permission to experience, experience life that just kind of slapped me in the side of the face. Yeah. It's something, that's, I've had in my mind have in my mind is light speak for like, I've been aware of it, but I've been really bad at it. And trying to be aware of when I don't give myself permission to just experience life. I'm not actually recharging. I'm not actually ever turning off. So even though I'm, it's the worst of both situations because I'm not sitting and creating and doing the
[00:42:14] Michaela: creative, sitting on the beach, beating yourself up for not being back in your studio, creating a
[00:42:20] Aaron: song so you don't create and you don't reset.
It's
[00:42:23] David: And you ruined the beach.
[00:42:24] Aaron: And you ruined the beach. yeah, exactly.
[00:42:27] Michaela: Well, I think what I've been processing a lot through these conversations. We spoke recently to Elizabeth Cook, who's a country, Singer songwriter and she talked about how her approach has progressed to be that everything in life is an opportunity for creativity.
Going to the post office, I'm gonna make it creative, she was talking about all these different ways of like how it's helped her cope when she's taken away from the creative projects that she wants to be doing. And it really shifted my mind when you think about, oh, if we are creative people, there is opportunity for creativity in everything we do.
But when it's not in the mode that we have become conditioned to know ourselves through, That's where I'm trying to separate of like my. Oh, my day is incredibly creative.
When I spend it with our two year old. I'm constantly trying to be creative, to figure out ways to get her to do things that I want her to do and with make believe and whatever. But there is this deeply ingrained feeling of, mothering takes me away from, I don't write as often as I used to.
And there's still this deeply ingrained value system that is where ambition is. That's where my work is, that's where my identity is. It's another aspect of creativity, but that creativity has a transactional thing.
So how to shift the mind of the creativity you can also experience of filling that part of you through experiencing just a beautiful day with your wife and dog.
That nobody's gonna know about.
[00:44:01] David: I know, So he used to documenting I saw something the other day that was I can't remember where, probably Twitter or something, but somebody had written about if we didn't have the associations that we have, we would fall over when we go into a grocery store, and see all the different shapes and colors and everything.
I don't know, reading that kind of rattled me a little bit cuz it was like, yeah, there's so much everywhere to look for and appreciate. And a lot of times it's just our own bias and our own associations that don't let us see the magic that is there. And that's something that I think hanging with a, A kid or hanging with somebody who's younger is is really inspiring because that sort of childlike enthusiasm for discovery and understanding.
Like, They don't know what a dragon fruit is. They just know that it like, looks insane and that's beautiful. So I think spending time with a child, spending time, doing things that you wouldn't normally do. love playing guitar because I don't know what the notes are.
And every time I pick it up, it's like discovering like, oh, this is cool. I don't know what this is. And There's really something to that. Everything you do in your life, if you approach it with intention, It all feeds back and it's all part of the same soup. And I think the danger that we can get into, as, creatives, is that we stop recognizing that we start thinking that it, everything is siloed.
And this is the part of my life that is, for creating music. And this is the part for being a good mother or father. And this is the part for taking care of the finances. And I think that everything is like much more intertwined than we give ourselves credit for. And sometimes taking time to spend it with things that fill you with love and appreciation is the best thing you can do for your art.
[00:45:50] Aaron: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:45:51] Michaela: That's a, yeah. Beautiful
[00:45:53] Aaron: way to end. Yeah. I can't think of a better way to put a bow on this conversation than, than with that. These conversations are something we've found like really refill our cups just being able to, see inside, the brains of these artists that we really admire. So thank you for sharing with us Yeah. What you do
[00:46:11] David: Yeah, for having me. this has been wonderful.
[00:46:14] Aaron: Yeah.