Dylan LeBlanc has released records on Rough Trade Records, ATO, and Single Lock records, and has toured with Lucinda Williams, Bruce Springsteen, First Aid Kit and more. We talk about how having a big first record at a young age effected his headspace, career, and life, navigating many tough ups and downs since then, sobriety and intentions, and Michaela and Dylan discuss the (drastically different) reactions of each of their teams when they told them they were expecting their first children.
Dylan LeBlanc has released records on Rough Trade Records, ATO, and Single Lock records, and has toured with Lucinda Williams, Bruce Springsteen, First Aid Kit and more. We talk about how having a big first record at a young age effected his headspace, career, and life, navigating many tough ups and downs since then, sobriety and intentions, and Michaela and Dylan discuss the (drastically different) reactions of each of their teams when they told them they were expecting their first children.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is not even a year old, we really want to thank you for being here. If you're returning, thank you so much for coming back. If this is your first time, thank you for checking us
[00:00:16] Aaron: out.
Yeah, there are so many podcasts to choose from, so we're really humbled to hear that you guys came back for at least one, and some of you I've heard recently have listened to all of them, and that is incredibly staggering. Thank you for that. Chances are you've found out about this in some form of word of mouth, whether it was via social media, somebody...
Maybe put it on your tour van. We love hearing about groups of dudes and tour vans listening to this podcast and talking about it That's like mission accomplished. So thank you of
[00:00:43] Michaela: dudes and tour vans igniting a conversation about feminism. We love
[00:00:47] Aaron: that You guys know who you are. Thank you So if you guys wouldn't mind and girls wouldn't mind Just passing your favorite episode forward on to somebody that doesn't know what this podcast is Maybe it's this episode you're about to hear.
Maybe it's a previous episode. Just pick one and send it to somebody that you think they might dig it. Because the more listeners we get... The longer we can do this for the more guests we can have the more ideas and insights we can share back with you So if you just take five seconds pick one right now and send it off.
We'd really appreciate that
[00:01:16] Michaela: Yeah, and we're not your typical promo show We are not trying to promote records or latest tours or talk about how a record was made necessarily We want to talk about the other times, the off cycle times, the in between times for artists and how they've learned to cope and thrive and sustain behind the scenes while building a career around their
[00:01:42] Aaron: art.
Yeah. And as we all know, Basically everything in this industry is outside of our control. It's all left up to chance, left up to luck. so we wanted to focus on what is within our control and that's our mindsets, our approach, our creativity. so we invited some of our friends, some of our favorite artists and some strangers, they get pitched to us onto the show to have the conversation about what they do to create sustainability in their lives so that they can sustain their creativity.
[00:02:08] Michaela: I also want to say that some of the artists that get. to us that we've never met before have been some of the deepest conversations. Oh, incredibly. It's pretty awesome.
[00:02:17] Aaron: Yeah. One thing that we love about this is that across the board when we talk to people, not on the show, normal life, everybody feels like this is such a solitary industry.
And it's so lonely that, people feel like they're the only ones. Struggling, or having a hard time, or having to navigate this or that. Trying to figure things out. And it's just not true. there's a lot in common. No matter if you're selling out theaters on a bus, or if you're driving your mom's Mazda to house concerts in your neighborhood.
there's so much that's shared. Ooh.
[00:02:48] Michaela: Neighborhood house concert tour. Interesting. Grab the wagon. Okay. Alright, well today's guest has been through it. For a long time and navigated some hard stuff and also gotten to experience some high points. And is an incredible artist. Today's guest is Dylan LeBlanc.
I personally am a really big fan of Dylan's weird voice as he described it. I think it is a beautiful voice and he's put out multiple records and he's one of those people that. Started really young, right out of the gate with some big opportunities, has toured with some great artists like First Aid Kit, Lucinda Williams, The Civil War, Drive By Truckers, and he is still putting out records and continuing to figure it out.
[00:03:32] Aaron: Yeah. He has released records on Rough Trade, on Single Lock, on ATO, and because his first record was on Rough Trade, he really got started in Europe and so he shares about playing this really gorgeous theater in Stockholm that's packed I don't know the exact capacity but it's a gorgeous theater and then coming back home to the States and selling like eight tickets and just navigating all of that and, one thing that we're all aware of is that from the outside, people's trajectory looks Like a road in Nebraska, it's straight and it's easy and it's just a rocket to success and when you zoom in, it really just looks like the Alps and it's up and down the left and right and Dylan embodied that and he was really gracious and sharing his experience through that how he's navigated that, how he's kept the ship right and if you've listened to other episodes on here, we talk about parenthood seemingly a lot of our guests are parents, just coincidentally.
But Dylan really kind of opened up about his experience as a dad, and him and Michaela got to share their experiences as artists in this industry, entering parenthood, and how incredibly different they were. Stick around for the last quarter of the episode as we, dive into that. But we're not going to spoil it.
So without further ado, here's our conversation with Dylan LeBlanc.
[00:04:42] Michaela: well, it looks beautiful
[00:04:43] Dylan: Thank
[00:04:44] Michaela: wherever you are in Florence.
[00:04:46] Dylan: Thank you. Um, I'm at home.
[00:04:48] Aaron: Nice.
[00:04:48] Dylan: just sitting in the backyard where it's quiet.
[00:04:50] Aaron: Nice. Oh, that's so nice. Are you here with your family?
[00:04:53] Dylan: No, they're in Norway. They're still there in Europe. I'm just here by myself, but I've got my, dad's life and her son are here.
Okay.
And they're doing some stuff around the house.
[00:05:04] Michaela: Nice. We have six Norwegians staying with us right now.
[00:05:09] Dylan: No way.
[00:05:10] Michaela: Yeah. Do you know the band Darlene West?
[00:05:12] Dylan: I've heard of them. Yes.
[00:05:13] Michaela: Yeah, they're all, they're all here.
[00:05:16] Dylan: That's awesome. Yeah. Tell them. I said um, I'm trying to think of something in Norwegian to say,
[00:05:21] Aaron: We won't be able to repeat it, so you're good.
[00:05:23] Dylan: okay, cool. Okay. No worries.
[00:05:26] Aaron: I mean,
All those Scandinavian languages just scramble my brain.
You know, if it's like, if it's romance adjacent, I can figure it out. I'm like, okay, cool. I see what that says. But as soon as you get into that Scandinavian, I'm just completely lost.
[00:05:38] Dylan: it's a lot easier than you think. It's just a few words. Like I love you is totally different than I love you. It's like Y else could or die and that's nothing like, I love you, but like I is y so that's kinda similar. And then Ma is like you,
[00:05:53] Michaela: It's the accent for me that's tough, because our friends are Mari and Tor, and we always I've called her Mari for so long, and she like, just recently was like, it's actually Mari, and I was like, oh,
I'm
[00:06:05] Dylan: Mari, like m a r i t
[00:06:07] Michaela: No, M A R I.
[00:06:09] Dylan: i. Okay. Yeah. Got it.
[00:06:10] Michaela: But oftentimes when they like tell me when I'm meeting their friends and stuff and different names, I like say it back.
And they're like, not quite, but good effort. . Yeah. You always get, they're like,
[00:06:20] Aaron: yeah, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So are you fluent in Norwegian
[00:06:25] Dylan: Not fluent. I can get by. That's one of those languages that you have to be there for years and years to, and even then, you're probably not going to get it 100 percent correct. And I'm also, just, I feel like my tongue is made of cotton anyway, and I can't roll my R's.
I don't know how. So my girlfriend and the kids always make fun of me when I'm trying to speak Norwegian. Because that's a very important part, you know, of pronouncing words and
[00:06:50] Aaron: Yeah. And I always feel horrible because most Norwegians I met are just completely fluent in English.
[00:06:56] Dylan: They are. So it's really not necessary for you to even butcher the language.
[00:07:00] Michaela: but that's the like, sad part of being American. the rest of the world knows so many languages and we do not.
Yeah,
[00:07:08] Aaron: spent some time in Morocco and in Morocco like everybody speaks Arabic and French and Spanish and English Yeah, or better there's all like the little mountain dialects like Bedouin and all that as well and you're just like this I'm sorry
[00:07:20] Dylan: I bet that was wonderful.
[00:07:22] Aaron: It was pretty wild, yeah, it was only like three days or so, but it felt like a long time We took a boat from Spain
[00:07:30] Dylan: Oh, wow.
[00:07:31] Aaron: Michaela was on tour in Europe, and I flew over at the end, and we played a show in London, and then went on vacation in Spain.
You know, typical Thai vacation on the end of a tour
[00:07:38] Dylan: Yeah.
[00:07:39] Aaron: so we spent like a week or ten days in Spain, and then hopped on a boat and went to Morocco for a few days at the end.
And, after we, booked our Airbnb and our flight, from Morocco back to London to get to the States.
Then we realized that we booked our trip right in the middle of Ramadan. So it was a very interesting way of seeing Morocco because it was... Just empty during the day. It was quiet and silent.
[00:08:02] Michaela: And I booked an Airbnb in a really rural area, not in a major city. like, the woman that we were staying with was an English But like, she was like, I'm gonna send Muhammad to come pick you up. And he doesn't speak any English. And we were just like, okay. And I was like, I'll be the girl with the blue suitcase and a guitar. And he just showed up And I know like how to say thank you and my darling in Arabic and that's it.
But we managed, we could spend a whole hour talking about the three days we spent in Morocco. Um, But we want to talk to you about how you. continuing to manage as you grow and evolve through a career to survive and stay centered on the music in a really challenging industry and career.
And I kind of wanted to start at the beginning because I've become aware of you in the last several years in our community and like got your first label deal at 19 and Started touring with some heavyweights, Right out of the gate? can you fill us in there?
[00:08:58] Dylan: I was living here in Florence at that time. But yeah I got lucky, I signed with ASCAP, at 19.
And then, I did this writer's night at the Bluebird. They had these like new writer's nights back then. they would do them there at the Bluebird and they asked me to come. And there was a guy there at that show. His name was John Tiven.
And he was just sort of in the blues world. Not really in... Our world, and he used to curate the Jack Daniels yearly party that they would do. And I remember him walking up to me after the show and just tell him how much he enjoyed it.
but, he said, I'm going to do this Jack Daniels thing. And there's a lot of industry people there. And I'm going to tell them about you just really nice guy. don't think of it after that, you just go, yeah whatever, cause nothing ever comes of that.
or rarely does it. so he went and did that. And then all of a sudden, about a couple of months later, this was back when my space, you guys remember my space,
Oh, yeah. Of course.
man, back in the day, I sound, I sound old now saying that's sad when you sound old and you're
[00:09:55] Michaela: I mean, that, yeah, well, that's, we met and started dating in college, and when I first noticed him, I, like, checked out his MySpace page, and we were in jazz school, and his MySpace profile said something about like, wanting a banjo, and I was like... Does he also like country roots
[00:10:10] Aaron: That's amazing. Yeah. I had no idea that MySpace Place was good for something. .
[00:10:14] Michaela: Yeah. Anyways back to your story.
[00:10:17] Dylan: you know, That's back when you could listen, you could have music on your MySpace page. You could put like tracks on it. So I had about four tracks and I get this really weird message. From this guy named Scott and he was just saying, Hey, I'm with rough trade records, on their A and R representative here in the United States.
And we're, We really like your music, . I'd never heard of rough trade but no one was beaten my door down from any label at that time. And I had, dropped out of high school and started doing music. As much as I could, joined a rock and roll band at that time.
So I had been trying to do this at that time for at least four years. my band had just broken up and I was just in a really bad spot. so I, I read this message and I'm thinking, you know what? I'll go for it. And they said, just, can you send us, 10 of your best songs? And I said, sure. And then I had my friend, Ben Tanner, who, now owns single lock and he was in Alabama shakes. He had recorded all those songs for me. And I told him about this. And I said, Hey, this label never heard of before called rough trade is asking me to send their songs, my songs to them.
And he was way more educated on all of that than I was. like, Oh, that's a legit label, dude. They put out the Smiths and, Screedy Polity. They had done some work with Lucinda. They put out her first record. You should really take this seriously. So I said, Oh shit, you know, So I said, okay. And uh, I went and got my 10 best and sent them. And again, like another month went by and I thought nothing's going to happen. I'm driving. Between Shreveport and Nashville. I was driving up to Nashville to do something. I don't even remember what, I was at Memphis at a gas station and my phone rings and it was Jeff Travis.
And he said, Dylan, we've been listening to these songs for, you know, a month now, we really like them. We want to come and see a show, Can you set up a showcase somewhere, that we can come and see you play, or do you have any shows and I didn't have a show at that time. And so I was doing this just for extra money, in casino in Shreveport, called the Hollywood Casino.
And I remember asking them if I could set up a show just for me there. And the lady that booked it, her name was Tabitha. She was really sweet. She said, yeah, we could probably make that happen. And so she got me a little hour slot in between their other stuff. set the show up and my band, who some of them lived here in Florence came down.
And played, and then, they were like, we really love the show. And it was just, it went really well. and then they signed me about six months later. You know, it takes a minute and then my record came out Popper's Field came out August 24th of 2010. And that's how it started. And then I spent most of my time overseas for the first couple of years, cause they just were bigger there. So I started building over there in England, mostly.
And that's how it started, so I mean, I just took a chance, and I was just excited that anyone was interested in what I was doing, musically and creatively, and it ended up working out.
Now that record didn't sell much, it wasn't like a huge success or anything like that. And also I was an idiot when I was 20, so that didn't help,
[00:13:14] Aaron: Yeah, as it goes, was that record, had you already recorded the songs
[00:13:18] Dylan: yeah, so I had recorded most of them. They were all demos that I sent and they liked the demos. So all I really did was add instrumentation like the following year, after I signed that deal, I got hooked up with a lady named Trina And I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's an incredible engineer and very intimidating when I first met her.
she had worked with Sheryl Crow and, had done all kinds of cool stuff. and so, I started mixing the album with her and she said, if there's anything you want to Do on this record speak now forever holds your peace and she had a barn out in Franklin close to the Natchez Trace And I hired a string player to come out there in her studio as we were sort of mixing it to come and do Some other stuff, but yeah, most of it was recorded already
[00:14:03] Michaela: cool. I'm always just so curious about like how, when opportunity meets at the right or wrong times for people personally and like age and experience and our dreams and our sense of reality and stuff, all of it mashes up and determines what the outcome is what was that like At 20, to have those kind of opportunities so young? And how has your like, perception changed from like then to now of what making a life as a musician is?
[00:14:34] Dylan: at that time I think I was really naive as a young person. Your whole goal is to get signed, right? You just want to be signed to a label, and you think that things are just automatically going to happen for you just because you're signed. And that's just not the case. that's when the work starts.
And there's still a lot of work that you personally have to do. sort of Make things happen for yourself. And I was so shy and so bad at promoting myself. at that time, I had a lot of anger, from my childhood and it's strange because you're pinching yourself, right?
You're like, Oh, this is, happening. Everything's going really well. And then you, start to hold on for dear life to everything you've ever wanted. it becomes like a dream or something and then you have these questions like the universe is centered on me or something, you know, it just was a naive point of view, I think that I had I was getting an opportunity to make a record I was drinking a lot.
When I first got to London, I got super drunk and I had a 45 minute slot and I was drunk during this show and I remember them saying like, is this going to be a problem, and I kind of snapped back like, Oh no, I'm already messing this up, you know,
and then taking a step back from me after that. And I was really scared. But again, things kept going. I got tours. But it wasn't growing, understand why people weren't coming out to the shows.
I didn't understand why my record wasn't selling. They kept telling me to do the social media thing and I did it as much as I could, I wasn't aware of how much you have to put yourself out there. And um, Yeah.
I just couldn't stay on top of it for whatever reason. so yeah, things were slow and it was just so slow, I would go play a show and here in the States and play to like six people.
But I would go to Stockholm and play the Södra Tia turn, and it would be packed, and so it was just, weird. You know, I don't know, weird is the best always with a drink in my hand and all this just nervous energy, man, just full of nervous energy all the time.
In fact, my entire twenties, the best way to describe it as nervous energy, just period, I don't think I realized fully how important the opportunities were that I was getting. I would show up to shows without a tuner, you know, just stupid things, you know, and my guitar would be out of tune and I'd be half drunk or all the way, so it was just silly things, that I would never do now, and then I got dropped after my second record came out and then everything came to a grinding halt and I had like this, you Nervous breakdown, then that's when sort of reality set in again.
[00:17:04] Aaron: how did that affect your writing and your creativity? were you more on the train of that's that. I guess this isn't going anywhere. Or was it like a, kick in the ass?
[00:17:13] Dylan: of course it was. And now that I listen, I listen to that record was called cast the same old shadow It was supposed to come out like at the beginning of the year and I had pushed it back. I had been touring a lot and I felt like I wasn't making waves and, now looking back I think I, I was probably withdrawing from alcohol, but I didn't know what that was
And I didn't know what it meant.
Mentally, what that does to a person, and I just had this weird breakdown, like right in the middle of when everything was going to happen for that second record. And I I pushed it back, and so the label was very not happy with me about that. and I said, I just need time, and can we push it back to September?
Can you just like give me the, summer to just sort of... get it together. And, that's ridiculous. you don't do that. and have a successful career, right out of the gate. so I think they started realizing that I was sort of a wild card.
And then, so they put that record out. I did some touring. And then they, were like, we're done, we're not going to, Put any more records out for you. And I said, I understand, sorry. So I completely crashed and burned. That was my first experience in the business, and it was mostly due to my own fault and that hurt even more, because I had to come to terms with that.
And then I just had a complete breakdown and then just started working regular jobs and playing cover gigs for four hours in a bar where people are shouting at you, you know
hmm. Mm Louisiana back to New Orleans drank a lot and Played wherever I could and made money wherever I could So I went from like playing, cool shows and doing the European thing to coming back to the States working a regular job and Remember my business managers calling me and like You're out of money, dude, like got to figure something out, you're gonna have to try to find another opportunity.
And so I stayed in Louisiana for a while and then I came back to Florence and I didn't write much and I thought I was just going to give up on it altogether. But yeah, it was a rough start.
[00:19:00] Aaron: for sure, a lot of skinned knees, What ended up being the thing that helped you right the ship and get back to it? Or was it just slog your way through and eventually had a record?
[00:19:11] Dylan: pretty much, so I'll just tell the story cause it's the best way. got. I started writing again, I came back to Florence and right about that time, there was this band called St. Paul and the Broken Bones, from Birmingham. And they were the first band that Ben and John Paul White, they had started a label called Single Lock.
And that was one of their first releases on that record. And John had, Discontinued the civil wars and he was riding a pretty big high, you know, they were huge and extremely successful so he had the availability to start this label and Rough trade had the option right to release another album I basically went to them and I said I don't have any money.
I have songs Can you help me make a record and can we send it to rough trade and see if they'll pick up the option and if they don't, I don't know what we're going to do after that, but, can you help me figure this out? And they were both extremely gracious.
Again, at this time, I was an absolute nightmare. I can't even imagine. so lucky. Like I think about my life and the fact that I'm getting to do it again, just blows me away. Cause no one has shot themselves in the foot more than me. and so John, said, yeah, we can do that, but it's going to be when we can do it, and we're going to make this record piecemeal, So for over the course of like almost two years, we started making Cautionary Tale and I would come in and we would do a song, and then we wouldn't do anything for a while. And then I come in and do another song. And then when we finished the record, They basically sent it to Ruptrade and they said, yeah, no, not going to put this record out yet. So thank you, but yeah, we're good. And John took it off the table.
he's like, we're going to put this record out. Let us do it. And they committed to, everything that a label does. And they put that record out. And at that time in between there, I was trying to clean up. I was really trying hard cause I knew there was something wrong with me.
And I was like, when multiple people are walking away from you, it became clear that it was something that was wrong with me and not wrong with them. I became aware basically that I was messed up and that I needed some help.
So I started trying to clean up and I did I went into the program, and Started going to AA and stuff like that and, started doing these therapy sessions. that John Paul had paid for me to do, which was extremely kind. and then, things started to change. I started to uh, understand what it meant to have people care about you and want to see you do well, I think in the world that I came from, I grew up pretty tough Shreveport, people didn't leave that town, that town sucks you in.
I don't know if you know anything about that town, but it's, a dangerous city. lot of crime very corrupt, the government in Louisiana, it's almost third world in some ways, the coroner Louisiana actually has more jurisdiction than like anyone, and the sheriffs too, and so it's old school in that way, and very like good old boy mentality, I had that mentality, like people don't leave here, I'm never going to be, I'm out too much, you know,
Mm-hmm.
and no one gives you a chance if you don't give yourself a chance, so building that confidence started around 2014, and really becoming aware of who I was and the problems that I had, the things that, I had done, and how selfish I was, you sort of learn, more about yourself. And the more I learned about myself, the more I learned about everybody else. That's what's strange, cause we're not that different people as a whole. We're only one chromosome away from a monkey. you know what I mean? It's like, that's not much, if you really think about it.
And I, I just started trying to get better, man. And trying to be more of service to people. that was just the beginning, and it doesn't happen overnight.
Yeah.
And I still had a lot of lessons to learn, and then Cautionary Tale came out January of 2016.
And before that I had gotten an offer from this guy named George Ezra. This would have been like mid August, September of 2015. he was this like pop star at that time. You guys remember he had a song out like,
[00:23:09] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Our friend David Lme used to play bass in Georgia's band.
[00:23:15] Dylan: I think I know who that is. Yeah. I became friends with some of those guys,
[00:23:18] Aaron: George had that super deep voice and
[00:23:20] Dylan: yeah, he had that super deep voice and he had, been a fan of Popper's Field cause it was pretty big in England, in the UK. And he basically asked for me to open two weeks worth of shows.
And my agent, sent me an email like, you need to do this. This is good. You should do these shows. And I said, okay, absolutely, I went out there and I played those shows and It started feeling like things were moving in the right direction, and then cautionary tale came out and then that record Caught some traction, you know, started doing pretty well, it felt like because I was trying to straighten out that things in my life were.
Straightening themselves out.
It was like the universe was like we're watching you. We can see that you're trying to do right. Or whoever that is, I don't know. I'm not religious, you know. I don't know anything about God that's above my pay grade. It felt like something was, trying to help because I was taking a step in the right direction.
And. Things went good for a while, people started showing up to shows and streaming the music. And it started going a little bit better, but um, That was a long answer to a short question.
I'm very sorry.
[00:24:21] Michaela: No, that's I mean it gives a lot of Context and also I really appreciate your honesty because it does take a lot to be vulnerable in the way that you shared that of owning what your missteps were and what your challenges were. And again, one of the reasons that we Do this podcast and we wanted to start it is because we, been in this for a long enough time that we've seen a lot of just how challenging it is to one, build a successful commercial career or indie career or whatever, but even more so how challenging it is to stay a healthy human being that still loves music.
you have to be a really like emotionally, mentally strong person to not be pulled and swayed and impacted by. All of the things in the music business that, are outside things telling you about yourself. not internalizing if only ten people show up to your show, not internalizing that and being like, damn, maybe if I was better more people would know about me.
And you have literal people in the business depending on who you're working with. Blaming you for those things it's an emotionally very challenging career path to go through and if you already have Struggles and then alcoholism drug abuse all that stuff that comes in you're not home you're not rooted in a place my mom has always been so supportive of me wanting to build a music career, but at the same time, always like voicing some concern about how unhealthy of a lifestyle she thinks it is.
And I was pretty adamant when I was younger, I was very like a good girl and morally very self righteous and like, no, that doesn't have to be a bad influence. and I saw how. Even going into it like that, I self destructed at different points and picked up a lot of bad habits and issues and things that I never thought I would in my life.
And so it's all to say like, I think. Owning that stuff and talking about it is the whole point for me of it takes away the shame and then it helps other people who might be struggling to be able to say like, Oh man, I heard Dylan LeBlanc struggled with this kind of stuff and he got through it.
how could I get help? I think that like interconnectedness, this is my now long response to nobody asking me what my thought was of just like.
[00:26:42] Dylan: always interested.
[00:26:43] Michaela: stuff is, it's really important. And you were, you know, in your words, messed up and whatever, because you were hurting and you were lost.
And I really do think depending on what path you're in in life, if you're trying to be a touring musician, if you're in a bad community, in home, if you're in an unsupportive or dangerous environment in your town or whatever, like all of those things, then just feed that. Pain, which then feeds addiction and destruction and all of that stuff.
So all to say thank you for sharing, honestly. and I'm curious, you know, where you are today with it what are some of the things you have to do kind of on a daily basis to like practice staying in a, healthy place?
[00:27:25] Dylan: It's a continuous thing, right? your mental health you come through it by staying on top of it and it's a daily thing. I always said, I knew I needed to change.
Who I was inside, I was always drawn to the dangerous things, always drawn to, unhealthy things, cause those were the things that excited me. that's something that I knew I needed to change. a change doesn't happen because you say things.
Yeah.
You have to put certain things into practical application. That's why I could never like, the Bible, it's a great book, and I don't mind anything that Jesus said. You know, My mother's extremely religious, there's not a set of rules there that I can follow, there's no program to it.
there's ten commandments don't break this rule, don't do that. And it just seemed like... every preacher growing up it was so fear based, you know, I grew up Southern Baptist and then the other side of my family was Catholic and I'm thinking, you know, they're just telling us what not to do, but they're not telling us what to do or how to do it, I couldn't grasp it And it just turned me off, and it scared me. They were saying some crazy stuff, man, Demons and shit, you know, I could already not sleep at night, and you start adding that shit into the mix, and it's like, what? and it stunted my growth, I think, How's that?
Just, the only reason you're not doing bad things is because you're afraid of what's going to happen to you in the afterlife, that's not a reason do the right thing is to do it out of fear, if that's the moral code, that you have to follow. where's the lesson in that?
When do you actually pick up principles in that? Or are you just doing it? Because you're living in fear, Right. away the responsibility of people as well. It's like personal responsibility.
[00:29:05] Aaron: It's an outside motivation. the things that have worked for me have been, Self driven like you were saying you're like you notice things that you're not proud of you're shameful of whatever it is And then as you start to fix it, it becomes this feedback loop of like you were saying when you entered the program you started to get clean It seemed like doors started to open and all of that to me that creates this like positive feedback loop of like wow I am doing this.
I have the power to change my situation and it creates this like rocket fuel. I was in my experience
[00:29:34] Dylan: Absolutely. And there's a part in the book that talks about becoming dangerously antisocial. And man, I was dangerously antisocial.
and I still don't like to be around a lot of people. I'm very tight knit. I like my friends. I mean, It's not worked for me in my benefit because the whole networking thing, I'm just not good at it, man.
I'm not good at pretending. And if I'm not interested, it's hard for me to pretend like I am. And I feel like in cities where the music business exists, there's a lot of that. going on, and I get it and I wish I was because I'd probably be a lot further down the road if I could just smile and go, Oh yeah, man, that's great.
I love what you've got going, but most of the time I just sit back and listen, and there are things, Michaela, your record Desert Dove. Oh my God, man. that record. that's a great record. Desert Dove. That's a great song. Incredible. But like things like that that I really hear that hit with me, people have to have a certain amount of I've been there before, before I can like it, and like it really to hit home in me.
[00:30:34] Michaela: I,
I hear you on that like I remember early days of moving to Nashville and I remember working with a producer he was more like in the music row world I remember him telling me like, when you're out and about nobody wants to know the truth.
you got to always be like upselling yourself. You don't want people to think things are hard for you. And I was like, What? that like goes against my whole personality like, I'm always like divulging too much
[00:30:59] Dylan: When does becoming human become into play,
[00:31:01] Michaela: exactly. And I do think.
maybe it's our age, maybe it's the pandemic, so much shifting, what has happened in the world. I feel more and more like I don't buy that. And also if that's the game I have to play, then I'm out. I'm not in that game
and being fully accepting of whatever those consequences might be.
But I think that's the only way to. Keep doing it and just be like I wanna make music and I wanna feel like a full human, like you said, there are people out there who are very attracted to that and want those deeper conversations and want the type of art that comes from a person that's like that.
[00:31:38] Dylan: Yeah, of course. And I also think that real recognizes real, I think we live in a social media age and young people, especially where, everything you're doing is building up an image of what you want people to see. And everybody, like you said, telling you to do that, 20 years, that's become a real thing.
And then where do you fit in the real you? Where does that fit into all of that? and I feel like mistakes are, gonna be made, you know, you're only human, I'm a firm believer like, how you talk to people has a lot to do with whether or not they listen to what you have to say, I mean if you come at someone in a way of Kind of hostility or like this is my point of view.
It's the only it's the only one then people automatically they quit listening even if you are on the right side of it, it's gone, They're not gonna hear it
We already don't listen.
when you add that into the mix, it's over, I feel like in this industry I've gotten a thicker skin for sure. Cause I have a, a weird singing voice and people have, call me like Ryan Adams 2. 0, things like that.
Just what, you know, because I make music that's similar his music. I'm Ryan Adams 2. 0, or whatever you're like, okay. Minus the sending nudes to children, you know,
[00:32:46] Michaela: Oh
[00:32:46] Dylan: sorry,
[00:32:47] Michaela: put
[00:32:47] Dylan: awful.
[00:32:48] Aaron: that, no it's okay. We were all thinking it, so it's cool.
[00:32:50] Dylan: Yeah.
[00:32:51] Aaron: But also, where were we the other day? somewhere, we were at a coffee shop or somewhere, we were traveling, and Ryan Adams was on, and Mikayla was like, I guess we're listening to him again? We were
[00:33:00] Michaela: in Europe. Oh yeah.
We were in Europe and I can't remember where we were in Europe. Were we
[00:33:04] Aaron: in Oslo or Stockholm?
[00:33:06] Michaela: I don't remember, somewhere in Europe where I was like, did they not get the memo?
[00:33:10] Aaron: I guess we're, I guess we can listen to them again. That's cool.
[00:33:12] Dylan: that's fine, if you want to listen to Ryan Adams,
[00:33:14] Aaron: he made great records.
[00:33:15] Michaela: That's a whole other debate of like,
[00:33:17] Dylan: I
[00:33:17] Michaela: we listen
to music made by people who,
[00:33:19] Dylan: you better quit listening to all of it then,
Yeah,
[00:33:21] Aaron: for sure. There's a lot of... Yeah, don't listen to anything
[00:33:24] Dylan: listen to Led Zeppelin,
[00:33:25] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But,
[00:33:27] Michaela: I think that's a huge challenge as well, of you have to develop a thick skin, but how do you then, keep going through a lot of mean shit that people say on the internet, or even to your face. But then stay soft and open enough to be able to process a lot of really emotional stuff and create music. that's always been the rub for me of like, how do you do that? Cause I don't want to be desensitized cause that's how I am a creative person is because I'm so in touch with emotions.
[00:33:56] Aaron: one thing I've gleaned in my time of having to grow a tougher skin and it's through, going to therapy and learning about myself when people say stuff to me that is offensive or seems cutting and all that It's like just kind of remembering it's always a little bit of a projection of them how they talk to themselves how they are viewing the world it's not necessarily any kind of truth towards me
[00:34:15] Dylan: I think you're right about that too, and, giving people grace is important. And I think it's becoming less of a thing, these days especially in this industry, trying to stay on top and trying to stay relevant. And being an artist period is self indulgent just by nature and it's necessary in some ways, but where does that turn off?
Where do you find the balance? I don't think I fundamentally changed until I had a kid,
[00:34:40] Michaela: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that
[00:34:41] Dylan: I think that is when the selfish part of me, it really started to die, man. And just having something else to think about other than myself, and my career. It was the most beautiful thing that's ever happened to me.
I was terrified. 100%. And I had been trying to change for a long time, but I think I still, I had rage, man, just so angry, everyone I come in contact with, had touched all of them in some form or fashion. and that's hard to admit, but it's the truth. Just blind rage, man, just angry. And just staying 25 percent angry all the time. And then if you add alcohol or any kind of drugs in the mix, it just never, it'd be great, I'd be having fun. And then someone would say the wrong thing, it would just go haywire. getting a hold of that and I knew that when I had a kid that had to stop.
and to be a better partner and also knowing that somebody told me this and it made so much sense and it took me out of my self and just becoming the person for your partner that you need to become. Quit trying to change them, people are going to be who they are, we're born and then we're formed into this thing, right? We didn't ask to be born, but here we are.
and all of our lives, these things happen and other people's choices and decisions impact our lives. And then here we are, and I had a tough childhood. And it created another nervous piece of matter running around on planet Earth, which was me, and it made me angry, and it didn't feel fair.
and I took that out on the people who didn't deserve it. And it's easy to do that on people who love you the most, significant others or I've never been like physically abusive. I have definitely been emotionally abusive. And to change that takes work and it takes a daily thing. It takes a daily structure. But when I saw my daughter for the first time, I knew it was like that has to stop.
And it has been so much better becoming the kind of partner my girlfriend needs. She's so calm. It's the best. I have the best partner. She has taught me so much hmm Mm life, about patience, about love, about what it is to sacrifice, things for the greater good of the people you love.
I've never heard her raise her voice. infinite amount of patience that she has. just by her actions, it's a lesson.
I'll have days where I'm yelling at the printer
The printer's not working and I'm polluting the energy, and she's just laughing right, and thank God she's just laughing at me like, You know, that printer can't, answer you back, it's not going to start working because you're screaming at it, you know, I'll be like messing with it for, 30 minutes and then find like, I wasn't connected to the wifi, you know,
[00:37:16] Michaela: I think having children too. I mean, we have, our daughters were born on the same exact day.
[00:37:22] Dylan: Yeah, they were. June 24th.
[00:37:24] Michaela: Yeah. That's But I noticed I was just putting our daughter down for a nap and before coming out to log on with you she was struggling today to go down for a nap and it was like literally down to the minute, I was running out here and I felt myself my anxiety creeping up and my frustration and my impatience of like just go to bed.
But I noticed so much with her now that she's two, when I meet her with that energy. It only makes it worse. if I start to get a tightened voice It doesn't work. She just resists me more. it's been such a good practice for me cause I am like a high anxiety person.
I have a, I have energy. And I always look to Aaron when I talk about myself.
[00:38:07] Aaron: And I always face her so the camera can't see my face. I'm like.
[00:38:13] Dylan: I
[00:38:13] Michaela: I have, I have some fire. I just doing that just now, I was like, in my head, I was like, shit, I need to get her to sleep because I can't be late for this.
And then I was like, wait, take a breath, let my body relax, my shoulders release. And instead of commanding her, I started playing pretend. And I was just like, Georgia Eeyore's in the bed. And like, I start like, doing all these voices and all of a sudden she like, stops her tantrum and she's like, haha, and starts laughing and it's such a lesson for me on a daily basis that I have to be reminded of constantly because it's so easy to be like, no, I need things to go the way that I need them to go right now.
And like the release and the relaxation and like, wait, what if I stopped trying to force it and push it? And what if I get creative? figure out how to communicate with her in a different way. I could go on forever about how that can relay as a metaphor into life in general, big picture and small picture.
And I think that's a really incredible thing. That said if you have A short temper and, rage issues having children will definitely push them and force you to address it. Sure. Hold it right
[00:39:18] Aaron: in front of your face. Yeah.
[00:39:20] Michaela: I wanted to ask you though, because especially, now that we have a child I talk a lot about the specific things about being a mom musician and a touring musician.
And, Yeah. I also, noticed it's not as talked about as a mother, because there's not a ton of mothers out there doing it because of a load of reasons. But then it makes me be like I wanna talk to men about it as well, and I wonder what their experiences are.
So can you share a little bit like what your experience has been since becoming a father and how it makes you create differently and how also, like your approach to your career has or has not changed.
[00:39:57] Dylan: Yeah, everything in my life, as far as creatively, part has always been easy for me, I'm used to missing people. I got split up from my mother when I was really young, and I missed her so bad.
felt like most of my life I've been missing someone. And having to learn to say goodbye to people, but it fades over time the children thing, that, that never fade, I miss my daughter every day I'm out with her. it's in the back of my mind, or it's in the front of my mind really all the time I think about her. Is she going to be angry at me?
'cause daddy wasn't home, and I question it, I question things like, is this worth it?
is the music I'm making, worth the time away. From her and her mother, but it's the only thing honestly that I've ever put all of my time and energy into and plus I don't have an education, I didn't come from a wealthy family, so if this doesn't work out, I am 100 percent screwed. It's going to be flipping burgers at McDonald's or doing something illegal that I don't want to do. I just make it that basic, it has made everything more hyper focused. Every opportunity I have, I try to make the most of it.
hmm. Of my daughter, because I have her and I need to take care of her. And I need to come home with money in my pocket. You know, I try not to spend money, little that I do have, foolishly, things like that. And also on a spiritual level, just having her to keep my own temperament, to keep myself calm, because like you were saying, kids pick up on that, and they are going to match your behavior, so it's important for me to always stay on top of being the person I need to be for her.
And that starts by, waking up in the morning and saying thank you, to whatever's out there, thank you for another opportunity, another day, to do what I love. What an honor it is, what a privilege it is, to go out, no matter how big or small, if it's six people out there in the crowd, or if it's five hundred, if it's two thousand, what an honor, they paid money to come see me.
and making things simpler, Always trying to be, unique nobody wants to be compared to anyone else, you spend your life trying to form this unique, I'm so unique, you know, like I'm this guy, you know, it's like, none of that matters, man. Just make, make the music you love, do it because you love it. And then watching her, her pure essence. She's only two. you know, our daughters were born on the same day. I remember you sending me that message.
[00:42:14] Aaron: we know a good handful of musicians now that have kids and it seems like women in this career have. A really big uphill battle in convincing their team that they're still a driven, functioning human being that's able to work and
wants to work. I'm wondering what the response from your team was, management, agent, all of that, when you told them you were having a kid. Did they say anything?
[00:42:37] Dylan: I'm lucky because my management's pretty hands off. I've always been the kind of person that, Maybe it's because I'm a male and maybe that has something to do with it. Probably does, honestly. But I just do what I want to do, and if there's consequences, I'll face them, but I feel like in this business, no matter who you are, it's hard to make people pay attention.
It's hard to keep people on track. And I feel like if you're the artist, you have to be a bulldog, sometimes. And just say, Hey, this is important. What I'm doing is good and it's worthwhile. And it's hard to do that a lot, especially when your confidence is, already had low self esteem, which came out in all kinds of insecure ways.
But being a woman in this business, I can't even imagine. I've never dated female artist. and I don't know, I'm not going to pretend like I know what it's like to be a woman in this business because I don't. know that it has to be harder, on many different things. First of all, the emotional, I know that if my girlfriend has never spent one night away from our kid, and she's going to Africa on this trip in about a month or two, it's tearing her apart.
Yeah. And so that part has to be hard. And then on top of that, the old ideas that people have that you have to contend with in the business,
[00:43:44] Michaela: I'm constantly asking what was your experience when you told people you worked with that you were having a baby? Because I know a lot of women's experience, so like, as a man I assume it's nothing. Nobody said anything to you of uh oh,
[00:43:58] Dylan: I didn't, I don't, you know, it's funny. I told my manager way later. I don't, I keep my personal life.
[00:44:04] Michaela: oh, you didn't hmm.
[00:44:06] Dylan: Uh, yeah. I, because I just, I don't even know why, but I think, I told him like, you know, Hey, I'm having a kid, things are going to change, opportunities need to be important if I'm going to do them, there are certain things you can't do anymore.
I think when you have a kid, no matter who you are, like you can't go and do these shows for no money anymore,
[00:44:25] Michaela: Yeah, or like go on tour for months on end,
like
[00:44:28] Dylan: yeah you, you can't really afford it to do that, but. Things haven't changed that much, to be honest, other than I need to be home, you know, and I just say, Hey, I need to be home these times.
can I please do that? But I don't know what it's like. because I remember when my father played. In a band back in the day. He's a musician as well. He's a songwriter and he was in country bands. And I remember Jamie O'Neill, I don't know if y'all remember her, but she had that song.
There is no Arizona. It was like a big hit in the mid 2000s. Her career effectively ended when she had kids
And that's awful.
she made another record and people just treat women differently about that. They're not capable of maintaining a career just because they gave birth to a child that's ridiculous.
I can't imagine that point of view. I've never had that point of view. So I can't imagine
think I would probably get in a lot of trouble.
[00:45:17] Michaela: Yeah.
that's why I like to talk about it and also talk to men about the different, cause I feel like for my own personal self, I'm like collecting data. for you? Cause you also just start to be like, is it just me?
[00:45:29] Dylan: I just wonder what sort of things happen if you don't mind me asking.
[00:45:33] Michaela: like a really negative response From my booking agent literally just responded with, Oh no. And then just sat and told me how hard it was going to be for me, and then fell off. And I don't work with him anymore.
[00:45:45] Aaron: Yeah. You told him that you were pregnant and then you didn't talk to him for a year, is that correct?
[00:45:50] Michaela: I didn't talk to him for like two years.
[00:45:52] Dylan: Not a congratulations, nothing.
[00:45:54] Michaela: The congratulations was delayed it was on Zoom and it was, very much just oh, Michaela, this is gonna be so hard for a while and
like, I'm gonna, I would be so concerned for you being out there with the baby.
A lot of like,
[00:46:08] Dylan: Patronizing bullshit.
[00:46:09] Michaela: yeah, that in, and in the moment I was panicked and felt like I had to convince and in hindsight now I'm, pissed off and think that's none of anybody's business but mine and someone who's booking shows just isn't on the road with me. So all they got to worry about is what schedule do you book in and there you go.
You got it.
[00:46:28] Dylan: I think a lot of people in the business are just ignorant, period, to what goes on in our lives out on the road and how. Everything is manageable,
yeah.
you can manage, with the right attitude, you're right, people push off, like it's the artist's fault sometimes, I think,
when you're lack of success or you're lack, yet you can't get an email back from someone, about a simple question
[00:46:51] Michaela: Yeah. And my
constant question is how many men have endured the conversation that I endured when I shared my happy news? Yeah. Not a lot. I don't think there's a lot, but I want to, start Asking more I realized the more I talk, the more I hear stories and the more I learn about other people and there's a lot of stuff that we keep hidden.
And again, that serves certain people to keep a lot of realities quiet.
[00:47:17] Dylan: Yeah.
[00:47:18] Michaela: think it serves the working class musicians at all. regardless of gender and, any of those kind of identity things we can go on and think well, oh, it doesn't affect me, so not my business.
But I think it affects all of us we might just not see it.
[00:47:34] Dylan: And I think, especially with men standing up and supporting women, is extremely helpful. had a lot of badass women in my family, so I was lucky that way, especially on my father's side, just zero tolerance for bullshit, My grandmother was Jewish in the South, growing up, so everything was already a little bit harder for her.
Even during World War II, when that was going on, people would say, What are you doing here? It's a Jewish holiday. You know, it would just be really rude, rude to her. I mean, my aunt heated up a frying pan till it got red hot, and stuck it to the foot of her husband because he was cheating on her.
So, I mean, these are no, These are no bullshit people we're talking about. Yeah. And it's like, now, now let's see you walk over there and hang out with that girl. You know what I mean? So it was just like, I come from that world. the women in my, in my family would have, we just would have told somebody to go fuck themselves.
You know what I mean? that was the mentality that they gave me, yeah.
but my grandfather also, he had a bad temper too. He was a military guy. Yeah. Marine. And they would just fuss, man. they would go back and forth, but they loved each other passionately and everything they did was passionate.
I'm a Cajun on my father's side. And they're loud people, they fight hard. They love hard. Very European in a way.
Mmhmm. Zero tolerance for racism, because of the background, and my grandmother is a, staunch liberal, and then, other people in my family aren't, you know how it is when you're born in the south.
you got family from both sides, and you just watch 'em. Damn near kill each other, but as long as you can hug it out at the end and find some sort of a common ground, you know, do know that it makes me sick when I hear things that happen to amazing artists. I just don't understand between your legs has to do with your art or what you're trying to do and that mentality, because if you're bad ass at something, who cares?
If you're writing great songs. Who cares? You know,
[00:49:25] Michaela: Lot of preconceived ideas of what someone else thinks you're going to do or what you're willing to do or what you're capable of that then informs their level of enthusiasm, commitment, all of that stuff. I've learned the sexism even for people that think that they're not sexist And all the other isms can like be so deeply ingrained that they might not even be aware that they're writing certain people off the reality is yeah, women, when women are having children, they're physically and biologically more attached to the baby.
They're physically needed more in those early days and whatever, all those things, truth. It makes it harder.
To be the mother and be the one that needs to go away. But if we had a society and a, system that was accepting of that and also honored and valued mothers for everything else that they contribute, we would have a system and mentality that just supported that rather than thinking, ah, fuck, all right, you're out. disappear. Stay in the house. Too bad. I think about this all the time and I have these conversations, especially with women, because I was naive. I was afraid to have a child because of all the things, but at the same time, I didn't really believe that the consequences were going to be as much as I have seen. And I'm always like what makes it harder, the reality of just how hard being a mother is and building a career, or is it the people around and the gatekeepers and the people that are working for you and whatever? Their mentalities, that's the shit that makes it hard. Me having to convince everybody You think a 20 year old is working harder than I am when I go on tour with a baby and I'm up like all hours and then TM myself and sell my own merch and put on a show like fuck you But women who are mothers We have to work incredibly hard and if we want to have a career, the only thing that's going to stop that is other people.
It's not us.
[00:51:26] Dylan:
Everybody becoming aware of it means. to try to change it on a, especially within the industry on a fundamental level.
[00:51:34] Michaela: of course it complicates things. I think about this a lot too, and does it make it harder to be successful, or does it make it harder to be exploited when you have concrete things that make your schedule, your time more precious, you're older, you make boundaries, so therefore, you aren't going to be Exploited or run ragged or all the things that are happen in this music business That burn people out, but might make people behind the desk more money in the short term, but anyways, we can have hours of this conversation We wanted to focus on you and now we're past the hour and I want to just thank you for
[00:52:14] Dylan: Thank you so
[00:52:14] Michaela: going to all the places with us.
[00:52:16] Dylan: I have a lot of respect for you. Thank you for having me. It was an honor to be here and I'm glad that we could talk about these things because these are Things that are frightening to talk about but they're so important to speak about raise awareness about
[00:52:29] Aaron: like you said earlier we're all a lot more similar than we think. especially being an artist, it's a very lonely profession, and so it's very easy to fall into thinking that you're the only one experiencing this or the only one having these struggles and it's like, man, we all share some version of all of these,
[00:52:43] Dylan: mean, you know, you're so scared To say anything a lot because you've built These networks, It takes work for you to build a team of people around you you're constantly living in fear that like they're going to bail on you for any reason, that's a,
[00:52:56] Michaela: pregnant.
[00:52:57] Dylan: yeah, it's just like, then it actually happened, I'm sorry, McKayla,
[00:53:01] Michaela: Oh, it's okay. I mean, it's not okay, but thank you for your apology. You have nothing to apologize for. I'm gonna be just
[00:53:09] Dylan: You're so talented. You're unbelievably, incredibly talented, and your voice is otherworldly, and your songwriting is incredible.
[00:53:17] Michaela: thank you,
[00:53:17] Dylan: You know, I was honored to be here. Thank you, Aaron, as well, for having me here.
[00:53:22] Aaron: Yeah, of course.
thank you for taking time,
[00:53:24] Michaela: thank you so much man. Take care.
[00:53:25] Dylan: See ya.