Elizabeth Cook has released 7 records, played the Grand Ole Opry 400+ times, hosts Apron Strings on Outlaw Country Sirius XM and Upstream on Circle TV, and is an occasional character on Squidbillies on adult swim (as Tammi). We talk to Elizabeth about her incredible diversity in her creative endeavors, her approach to creating in every facet of life, coming up in the Music Row publishing world and a whole lot more.
Elizabeth Cook has released 7 records, played the Grand Ole Opry 400+ times, hosts Apron Strings on Outlaw Country Sirius XM and Upstream on Circle TV, and is an occasional character on Squidbillies on adult swim (as Tammi). We talk to Elizabeth about her incredible diversity in her creative endeavors, her approach to creating in every facet of life, coming up in the Music Row publishing world and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hi, and welcome to today's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne, if you're a returning listener, thank you for coming back. If you are brand new, welcome.
[00:00:10] Aaron: Those of you that are new to the show, we do things a little bit differently around here. We are gonna focus on the other 22 hours, the hours that we spend off stage that are usually outside of the public eye.
And we're gonna talk to our guests about tools and routines that they've found to stay inspired and stay sane and stay grounded while building a career around their art.
[00:00:27] Michaela: Between the two of us, Erin and I have almost 25 years of experience in the music business.
I started out working at labels teaching music at public schools in New York City and have spent the better part of the last decade recording and releasing my own music and touring the world.
[00:00:43] Aaron: And I started playing in bands in high school and making records in basements and garages, and then, After many, many years of music school, I also taught classes in New York City public schools, but spent a lot of years on the road with different bands, and now I spend most of my time right here in my studio in Nashville producing records and writing music for tv.
so through all of this, Michaela and I have learned that there's no one right way to build a career around your passion
[00:01:09] Michaela: And in an industry where so much feels out of our control left up to look who you know, being in the right place at the right time, we wanted to focus on the things that are within our control.
[00:01:19] Aaron: and with that in mind, we decided to invite some of our friends and some of our favorite artists on the show to talk about do to create sustainability in their lives so that they can sustain their creativity.
And that friend today is Elizabeth Cook.
[00:01:32] Michaela: Elizabeth feels like she's an icon in our world. She really straddles this line between mainstream country and the independent spirit of the East Nashville art community. She's put out. Several records and been a guest on the Gran Ole Opry over 400
[00:01:49] Aaron: times. Yeah.
She was a guest multiple times on Letterman. One of his favorite guests I've heard. And she also has Quite the diverse career. On top of making records and touring, she also hosts a popular show on Sirius XM satellite radio called Apron Strings on the Outlaw Channel. She's got a TV show called Upstream on Circle tv, and she's got her own clothing line called Women for Sheriff. She's also
[00:02:15] Michaela: making a movie as we learn today.
[00:02:18] Aaron: So naturally, we talked a lot about having a diversity in your career and how that can really help with longevity and how it doesn't detract from one area. It inspires the whole
[00:02:27] Michaela: Our conversation with Elizabeth was especially inspiring to me on the topics of making life art, how everything has an opportunity for creativity and trying to consciously live outside of fear-driven choices and motives,
[00:02:43] Aaron: and then also constantly refining what is right for you and what feels right, even.
With a big carrot dangling in front of you. when you kind of whittle it down, you find the right people to surround yourself with the right opportunities to surround yourself with. It really attracts more, and it should feel easy, which is something I'm still learning. If it's not hard, it doesn't feel right, and Elizabeth makes a good point on why I'm wrong with that.
Without further ado, here's our conversation with Elizabeth Cook.
[00:03:13] Elizabeth: Well
It's good to see y'all.
[00:03:14] Michaela: see, It's good to see you too. How have you been? I don't even remember the last time I saw you in person.
[00:03:20] Elizabeth: God, I
[00:03:20] Michaela: years
[00:03:21] Elizabeth: don't, I feel like we were all at D'S and we were all wearing leopard. Do you remember that?
[00:03:27] Michaela: Oh
[00:03:28] Elizabeth: Carter were all in leopard and we took a photo together. This is this. This is the shit that happens at these,
[00:03:35] Michaela: Yeah, I was like, this is years ago, cuz I
[00:03:38] Elizabeth: And maybe Lauren Morrow too.
[00:03:40] Aaron: That sounds about right.
[00:03:42] Elizabeth: also what's not bright is my memory, so
[00:03:45] Michaela: we have a almost two year old, which means I have not been at D'S for a long time. And also my memory doesn't work anymore because
[00:03:53] Elizabeth: Oh my gosh. I think about y'all. I think about y'all. I do. And I know it's delightful and everything is about it, but I also, I'm sorry that I know you're probably not resting very well and I hope you have support and help and you know, cuz it's hard.
[00:04:13] Aaron: Yeah. I like to say it's like the most grueling tour you've ever been on. That just
[00:04:17] Elizabeth: I know. And that's how I knew it wasn't for me, you know, because I crack under the other already as is
[00:04:26] Michaela: I will never forget when we posted on Instagram that she was born. I think there was like, something happened on the highway here where a woman was giving birth on the side of the highway, and it was all in the news. And I remember you commented and you were like, I saw a woman giving birth on the highway, and I wondered if it was you guys.
And you were like, so glad to hear you made it to the hospital.
[00:04:48] Elizabeth: Yeah. So maybe the last time I saw you wasn't at these was, you know, at Garden Fresh or wherever and, and you were Yeah. Looking super ready or something.
[00:04:59] Michaela: Oh yeah. Who knows? Well, thank you so much for being willing to, be our guest and chat with us.
one of the reasons why I wanted to have you as a guest on this show is cuz you seem just so strongly and centered in who you are and what you do and the ownership of that. And I find it really inspiring. I you have this foot in legacy of country music.
[00:05:22] Aaron: But then you completely do your own thing every record you put out is something new and something different and something that's your own thing that you've, carved out your own little corner and everything.
And I find that really respectable.
[00:05:33] Elizabeth: Thank you. I mean, Most importantly, probably the only credit that I could take in that is that I've kept putting myself out there no matter what. But I've had some good help along the way, and that's been important. That part also has to happen. And it's like, had a lot of bad help too, you know, in terms of like my partners in the industry you know, managers and record label and all the cliche shit you hear, you know about it all the time.
But I've had some really great folks along the way too that have supported me and helped me be able to have those steps, is the biggest journey. One of the biggest journeys in it all has been mining out and finding those people, and to not become jaded and, pissed off in that process because you get let down a lot.
[00:06:21] Aaron: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of rejection, there's a lot of disappointment. Have you always had a nose for sniffing out the people that'll help? Or was that, did you scratch
[00:06:30] Elizabeth: No, it
[00:06:31] Aaron: that out?
[00:06:32] Elizabeth: Well, That's why I said the only credit I could take is just keeping myself out there and because no, it's not been a talent of mine. It's been, more failures than successes in that department. And that's, been frustrating and hard.
you know, I think I'm on, probably on my fifth or sixth booking agent.
You know, Every and every once in a while you hear somebody say, oh, this is my manager and he's been managing me since, you know, we played high school football together or whatever. And I'm like,
Mm-hmm. I just. Envy and admire that so much, but I've had people allow me to be and trust me, to be and help support me in the industry and I've found them along the way through a laborious process.
[00:07:18] Michaela: I think about this, a lot of the people that you find to work with you and I think there can be this trap of when you see people that are like, oh, they found their advocate, or their champion, or their partner so early on, and that stability probably really helped their career.
And if you aren't someone who had that, I personally find it hard to not internalize it and be like, well, what's wrong with me that I'm not attracting the right partner
[00:07:44] Elizabeth: And in part that may be you may have something you need to work on and come out. I did.
[00:07:49] Michaela: What was your process in that? Did you have that question and
[00:07:53] Elizabeth: at first I was disillusioned when I got a major label record deal, which was the holy grail of what you could get. And when I got that, after four years at a publishing company on Music Row, and that's what we were going for. And when I got that deal, and then there was quickly the Time Warner AOL merger and I got folded from Atlantic Records into Warner Brothers records and they trimmed the roster way down and the people that signed me were fired and all those shit, was going on.
And I really wanted to go tour. I was young, I felt like I needed to get in a van with a band and go duke it out and develop myself cuz I just didn't feel ready. And they wanted my first gig to be an awards show, so they would spend literally $175,000 on a video isn't that just mind blowing what that economy was then? Yes, yes. Like nothing. And they were burying the money at that time in Nashville. It was the stadium arena era, gold rush of Garth and Shania and mega superstars in country music that were dominating across genres.
So anyway I was very disillusioned by that cuz I knew that was something I needed to work on.
What I didn't know that I needed to work on, that I needed to work on was a little bit of bad attitude with executives and a, automatic combative. And I don't know if it was defensiveness out of my own insecurities for whatever reason,
[00:09:18] Aaron: Uhoh.
[00:09:19] Elizabeth: but I when Warner Brothers didn't work out and I went and asked to be released from my contract and they let me go. And I can remember going to some big audition they were having somewhere where it was like packed room and they were hosting auditions to be on like, who's a gonna be the Nashville Star, American Idol type deal.
And those things were still relatively new, but they were hot. And if you won it, you got a record deal. And I was literally standing in that room looking at those seas of desperate as people trying to make this happen. Knowing I was about to go, asked to be released from mine and how alone I felt and how disillusioned I was with all of it.
But I did that and then I got right away, got a meeting with Sony, and then, they just didn't call back after that meeting. And when the word came down as to why the meeting was too much about what I would not do, so I just went in swinging, and this may segue to the other part of what I think y'all want to talk about, is creating all the time.
for me, I can't just create in music, I have to create everywhere. And you create your environment. And populate it with people as if you're making a painting. It has to be inspired. It has to feel good to both people. And if you have those similar sensibilities and you're on that same plane together, then you can work together and you can create something together.
So to always be creating in every part of your career, not just the music part.
[00:10:46] Michaela: But thinking of that as part of the creativity is a concept that I don't think I've thought of totally.
Of like, oh, this is also me being creative, designing who's gonna be in my life, who's gonna be in my work process. I've always thought about it as like tasks that's what I have to do to then be able to create. But when you encompass it, of like every aspect of your life is a part of your creativity.
[00:11:10] Elizabeth: Yes, that's
[00:11:11] Michaela: Yeah. That
[00:11:12] Elizabeth: Task are traps. A task is a trap And I have to do stuff all day long. Like I am my dog's doorman. I'm a doorman for my dog. He has needs on an ongoing basis of which side of the door he needs to be on, and he's insistent and vocal about them. And, I find myself letting the dog in and out a lot.
And so when I hear him, start going off and knowing, all right, he's discontent with something, what is it? You know, he is outta water, he is outta whatever, and now he wants out. All right? So that's a task when I, when it clicks with me, like I'm gonna have to get up and do something. But to try and stay in the mindset of, every moment's a creative moment no matter what. And I go as far as to drive my partner crazy with how much I have to keep my environment creative creating what the room looks like. I can't just go buy curtains. It's not that simple for me. It's gonna be a thing, and I'm gonna think through it.
I on a rabbit hole and, you know, some doctors will tell you there's medication for this. But have to stay in that space. As much as I can in order to be good at what I do. And there are limits. I mean, yeah. You know, how creative can you be when you're going to do your taxes or whatever. But if I'm making a little Excel spreadsheet to tell my accountant how much, something was, I might go up in the corner and I might like, oh, I'm gonna color this line yellow and I'm gonna color this line thing and I'm gonna shrink this column.
I'm, and I just think you have to be secure in your environment to be able to be in that space also. I think you have to feel safe, Than trying to keep everything on some level of wonder and some level of playful no matter what it is.
It's just a more pleasant way to exist for me.
[00:13:00] Aaron: yeah. I can understand that saying curious comes to mind how can this be different? What can we do with this?
[00:13:06] Elizabeth: So another, another example of wonder, mean it's not all music. It can't be, I'd go, no, it would be born to death,
[00:13:12] Aaron: it gets stale.
[00:13:13] Elizabeth: Yeah. So I have to find other things that I'm genuinely curious about and allow myself time and consider that time part of work.
[00:13:22] Michaela: That approach for you, that kind of ethos of the way that you live, has that just always been a part of you, or have you had to grow through developing that as a way to understand, oh, this is the best way for me to live and stay creative?
Especially when you're also like navigating record deals and support and how kind of disruptive that can be. Did that affect your outlook and then in part your ability to create?
[00:13:51] Elizabeth: Yes, very much so. because I didn't understand it. I didn't understand why I had conflict with situations so much and why everything felt so hard all the time. And I know there's like books on this and stuff about keeping a child like spirit or keeping, you know, and I'm like, you can't walk around doing pirouettes all day.
Some people do, but they'll lock you up for that. So, But I think I didn't understand that. So it was always like, all this shit that has to be done and it's got all this pressure on it and I don't wanna do it. And then there's this other absolutely magical part of my existence that is all that they're really interested in, that is getting no nurture.
And this vacuum will just suck you in. So I'll find myself existing in that space a lot and struggling to get back over to this one. So one key thing that played into that exact concept, but really helped serve was finding good people. And, learning to trust the process.
I have a manager now and a partner now that understand, how I think and how I work And just trust it, and that's been hard one, I struggled for a long time not wanting to accept the way that I needed to exist in that other space in a very real and tangible way all the time from my sanity, and I tried so hard to go the other way because I double majored in accounting and computer information systems. I got a job with Pricewaterhouse as an auditor, and it's such a controlled environment in a corporate environment. And I could go to school and I could take the classes and nail the classes and get the G P A and all that stuff, but man put me in that work environment and I was dead on arrival.
There was no way I was gonna succeed at being an accountant.
luckily I saw that sooner than later.
At least not in that structure.
[00:15:43] Aaron: So you were chasing that down before getting the, pub deal and, and all of that?
[00:15:47] Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't want to do music. At a few different times in my life, I quit when I was 12, I quit. when I decided to go to college, was a sign to my parents that I was not going to. And my mother was so kind of just perplexed by it. And they were such blue collar people. They didn't understand.
Going to school, you know, that's not what you do now. You can go be a country super, you can go be Reba McIntyre or you can stay here and work and hang out with us. You know, and those were kind of the options. And yeah, mama was like, God, if I, when I was your age if, I had to looked like you not had any kids yet, I would've been on a bus in Nashville so fast.
And she would've, it was her great passion and dream to chase that. But um, yeah, I didn't want it. I was like, I had the lunchroom ladies at the high school I went to, gave me a $500 scholarship and I started community college with that nugget of encouragement, which was tiny. And I got a job at the bank answering the phone at way cross bank in trust in way cross Georgia and going to the community school there.
Which was hard as fuck. And then my girlfriend figured out how you could get Pale Grant in a loan and talk to me into coming to Georgia Southern with her cuz she needed a roommate. so boy that took some doing with my parents and it's only because of this girl that was my friend who's like this host redneck tough girl, that they trusted I could go with her cuz she could skin a buck and run a trout lot basically.
And so I would be safe with her big Strap and Gal and A Star is surname still see her every Thanksgiving. So anyway, yeah, I got to go off to college to be with her. And then I was, liked math a lot, but also liked literature.
[00:17:35] Michaela: I had no idea that you were an accountant originally. Yeah, me neither. I wouldn't
[00:17:40] Elizabeth: Yeah. So I went through four calculuses thinking I wanted to be a math teacher, and then they teach you, like introductions to education class, I went to that class and they put you out in the field in that class for one of the weeks of it or something.
And man, those kids came in there and all I could see, I guess some teachers are able to compartmentalize in an unbelievably gifted way because all I could see was a sea of hungry, sad, it was like a C level math seventh grade geometry class in Statesboro, Georgia. And yeah, not good, I was like, oh my God, these kids are like, they need help.
You know,
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
can't stand up here and talk about the, the thri theorem or
Yeah.
you know, like, I couldn't believe it. So I didn't do that. I didn't go the English route or the literature route because my, second lit two professor hit on me. So I I ended up going to the business route, but with accounting major.
And then I doubled in computer information systems. Cause I like to get stoned in code
Okay.
I was in college.
[00:18:50] Michaela: Have those skills proved helpful through your career as a musician, artist?
[00:18:56] Elizabeth: Yes. Yeah. All of it just, and just the whole experience of finding out who you are and your, and having patience with that. Yeah. I'm 50
Mm-hmm. Old, kick stretch and, Yeah. Yeah.
and all that. And uh, all that was necessary. So I don't, the only regrets that I have it is not in any choices that I made, but maybe how I might have treated some people along the way. like, ah, I could have been a better person there. I was out of my own anguish or whatever.
[00:19:26] Aaron: Being human.
[00:19:27] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:29] Elizabeth: Yeah.
[00:19:30] Aaron: So after college, you got a job as an accountant, and then you said that didn't work out? I would assume that it wasn't as creative in an outlet, basically. It was like too, too, too rigid.
[00:19:41] Elizabeth: Yes. So there were things about it, like, where I couldn't seem to get the fashion down. So I always was dressed a little off and I, and I could feel it, but I had a little bit of personality. So they liked it when we would show up at a client's, cuz I would, talk to the other people that worked there.
so they liked that cuz nobody's happy when the auditors show up. And then the real turning moment was when Like I was doing some really mundane like entry level audit accountant type deal. Like, Go through the checkbook and we're just gonna pull these and test these checks and make sure they're for what they said they were for, and the amount cleared for the right amount or whatever.
I had some idea that I wanted to build spreadsheet to make it such that the person that came to do that task on next year's audit, there would be like a thing. I wanted to create something, in other words. And he was like, no, that'll take too much time. Just do it. And I was like, it'll be super fast.
I'll be super fast. And he is like, no, don't do it. Well, I went over there and I did it and I got caught and he was so mad at me. He was so mad at me. he would go on to ask me on a date on Bumble, but um, yeah, years later isn't funny. I'm not on Bumble. was, it was a, it was a
for the record?
like, I'm not like these motherfuckers. Um, so I wanted to create something and I was not gonna be allowed to ever, and the hours were grueling and the culture was dull. well I had been, been hanging out with some musicians around town, going to some open mics and just dipping my toe in to see what was out there.
You know, I really didn't have a lot of time for her. And I was about to start traveling with being an accountant for Pricewaterhouse. So, It was some, just a curiosity. It was a young, single adult living in Nashville. So I lived with my sister in an apartment in Franklin. She had. Three kids, husband and a grandma.
And we all lived in this apartment in Franklin. So I would nanny during the day for her before my Pricewater house gig started. I had three months and then Go Cat around Nashville. During that time I met these guys that were like doing a as Cat Rider's night you know, and some shed off Nolansville Road and I started hanging around them and some of those guys had deals and I would get up and sit in and sing every once in a while.
one of the guys said, Hey, there's this dude on Music Row, he's got all this old catalog. They want a traditional female singer to come sing it. Would you go and you know, sing it for me and they'll pay you something just to be something fun to do. I was like, all right, sure. So on my lunch break, I go down to Bros Music at 19th in division in like my Anne Taylor's pantsuit and walk in and meet this guy named Jeff Gordon.
And um, he was like, here's a guitar or play me something. And I played like a verse in a course of a song I had written in college, not because I was trying to be a songwriter, just because I was a natural, always on creative mode at some level. And so I played him that and he offered me a deal to write songs, right?
Did he offered me a publishing deal. I was like, do you want a publishing deal? And I was like I don't know. And I had, and I was dating this guy at the time. so we come back to meet with him and I bring the guy that I'm dating cuz he's, one of the guys that hangs around this shed in Off Nolensville.
I'll never forget it. And this is when I knew I was done with that mother prayer cuz he, he sat down and attorney and he, and he laid back like this and he looked at the guy and he goes, so what are we gonna do with her? And I was like,
am I sheep? You know, are we, are we at the cell barn? so that was it for him. He was out. And then ended up getting the deal, taking the deal. And it was for half of what I was making at Pricewaterhouse. But again, I didn't have any, I had some student loans, but that was about it.
And they had an empty office and that building next door to them was an old building. They knocked it down now, but it was built in the 18 hundreds. It was a home for unwed mothers. It became Warner Brothers records buildings before the one over on 16th and They had, the little corner office up there and it had a bathroom cuz the president of the Warner Brothers had his aunt, whatever.
and this empty room that was just lined with vinyl that they represented that they owned. And I got like a fold out chair and moved on. What shit I had outta my sister's apartment into that office and I lived there for three years.
Wow. Wow.
[00:23:54] Michaela: So were you writing with other people? Were you doing that whole thing or were you just
[00:23:59] Elizabeth: yes. So he had another writer, this guy that would come up from Alabama named Hardy McGee. and he wanted to be a producer. So they started developing me basically to get a record deal. And that's when we started working towards it. And we made an album that's just the blue record, it's just got my name on it.
And we made a record of songs. I had written some by myself. Some with Hardy McGee. And then that got me the deal with Atlantic and then that got me the deal with Warner Chapel. And Warner Chapel had me writing with all kinds of people, from Harlan Howard to, Wow. Wow.
Harlan, Howard, John, Scott, Cheryl, a guy named Jim McBride that wrote Chattahoochee,
[00:24:37] Aaron: Yeah. Wow.
[00:24:37] Elizabeth: man.
[00:24:38] Aaron: How was that experience? it sounds like it was kinda like just jumping in the deep end at that point,
[00:24:42] Elizabeth: it was because, there were some good ones, co-writers, but there was also a lot of people I didn't connect with at all, And there was this thing up at the publishing company had a fax machine. I'm older than God. They would have this fax machine and every, I think it was every Friday or Monday, I can't remember, the row fax would come out and it was like, here it comes.
And it was coming out. Every every publishing house, everybody was getting here, came the facts. And it would have, who was cutting, what label they were cutting on, who the song plugger was, who the publisher was, who did, who was producing. So you knew who to send. You went, I guess the pluggers took the songs to the producers or the a and r at the label.
and they would, you know, send you in a room in their big gargantuan building, with two or three other people and be like, you know, Martinez looking for a power ballot. So that clearly is not how I create and it's successful for some people. I believe it can even be inspired. but I don't, co-create
[00:25:46] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:47] Elizabeth: I collaborate to flush out creations by bringing other people that are also creating what they're doing.
That compliments what I'm doing, but I don't I like to collaborate but not
[00:25:57] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:25:57] Elizabeth: Like, my part of it's not really negotiable,
[00:26:00] Aaron: I assume you kind of, learned that. In this situation, in this pub deal, from being put in with all these writers, did you kind of learn that your role was, writing more is like the artist rather than trying to write for other artists.
Am I hearing that right?
[00:26:13] Elizabeth: Yeah, totally. Yeah, because they signed me, because I had a record deal. The songs would be in most normal protocol. Yes the songwriters in the room will be focused on me and my next record. But I was very disenfranchised over at Warner Brothers because of the merger. So I had gotten kicked in over there.
I got the worst manager possible for that label. And my camp just changed and I really didn't have anybody and my producer, for the album, a lot of bad personal stuff started happening there. That came outta nowhere at me, involving him and his family. that is because I'm a woman, basically.
I don't think that's something that the male artists have to deal with as much. I know they do some though. But, I was dangling out there in the publishing company, co-writing song, factory making. Mm-hmm.
But I, lately I've been dabbling in it again, in my own of my own accord, mainly just to be with some of the people and writers that I just wanna spend time with, the songwriting parts.
Okay. Okay. some of it I like I can't decide if it's just I'm not good at it or it's inherently broken or, you know, what, or I just haven't done it enough in the right frame of mind to make it work. For me, I don't know yet.
[00:27:33] Michaela: I remember reading an interview with you years ago where you referenced having a publishing deal and like writing in offices during the day, and you just being like, that's just doesn't work for me. think it was probably our early days of moving to Nashville and I found that so comforting because I never got a publishing deal, but I tried to dabble in that as well.
And, went to some publishing houses and did some writing and I was always like, I feel so and not myself. And how come this is like mm-hmm. So hard for me. And
[00:28:05] Elizabeth: But other people do it every day happily and successfully and God bless them. But there is some part of the chain that is different
[00:28:15] Michaela: But for some of us, and I think that's the biggest thing is that me, I felt I was able to, make my way a little more to being on terms with myself of it's okay because I saw, well, Elizabeth Cook doesn't feel like it's good either.
[00:28:30] Elizabeth: Aw.
Well, I don't know whether to say I'm sorry or thanks or what,
[00:28:37] Michaela: all to say that I think I am someone that I feel like has not an easy path in this music business, and I'm always trying to like, figure out, I don't feel like I fit in easily anywhere.
[00:28:48] Elizabeth: Though, clearly talented. You're clearly talented, but yeah, I get what you mean. When you're going along, it's like, everybody thinks you're great, but yet nothing's like clicking,
[00:28:56] Michaela: yeah. And I think as that's why these conversations are important to me, to put out in the world because you are someone that I don't know intimately well, but I've watched and thought, wow, she like really has navigated so much stuff on my very surface level knowledge of it. But it looks like you are continuing to learn like what is you and you don't fit in a box and you yet are so, in my observation, respected in a lot of these kind of like traditional pop country realms as well.
And then also do whatever you want with working with Todd Snyder and making your own music and, I've just admired how it seems like you've just keep going. You just keep doing whatever you are led to do. And I think then in turn, the people who are attracted to you and your work are that much more attracted to it because it's so individually Elizabeth.
[00:29:56] Elizabeth: Yeah. And so it's hard to sell that to a box brand mentality business because when the brand is to be as authentic to yourself as you can be, no human can be put in a box. No human can be put in a box. You know, it's like everyone is way more nuanced than we think, so yeah, people having the aptitude or whatever to be able to perceive that about a person.
And, And the patience too in the space too, because, we get in the hustle of life and working and It can just drag you down, but you can't really serve other others because it sound, it also sounds incredibly self-indulgent, I feel like, which is women where you're trained to especially not be.
And so it's sort of the audacity to be self-indulgent. Because I know that if I'm not my best, I can't really serve anyone else
Well anyway.
[00:30:57] Michaela: well,
Have you had to be conscious about, okay, I'm gonna make another record. Should I make a record? That sounds like a specific thing that would be easier to market. Have those thoughts or conversations ever been in your realm, or have you just been like, no, this is what I feel like making and I'm
[00:31:13] Elizabeth: oh, al oh always, always a debate and a battle going on. but that is fear driven and that has not served me. Anytime that I try to do it, I feel genuinely bad at it. And, when I was really fighting in those high end publishing circles, my daddy kind of got on me a little bit.
He's like, I recognize all the bullshit around the business that you're in. He said, but when people are paying you to do a job, you go do it. And that's a principle that we have. And it wasn't enough to just have that obligation because of a contract. It was like I felt like I was bad at it.
I didn't wanna do it cuz I felt like I'm not helping anybody. I'm wasting everybody's time.
Mm-hmm. In there, and writing a song that's never gonna see the light of day and leaving like, that's okay. and then I went through a very arrogant phase about it where it's like, this is so precious to create and to do and, our inspirations and our messages as artists and regurgitating what we perceive and all that stuff is such a precious thing that I can't stand to see it bastardized and flitted around like an appointment.
You know? I just thought it really, it wasn't respectful of art.
solely concentrated on the monetization and money and in power status, all those things. Boy, that hustle's really got a lot of people eat up too, everybody just needs to feel like somebody, and I don't, wanna hate on that either.
Yep.
[00:32:51] Aaron: Yeah. assume that kind of realization took you away from the publishing world,
[00:32:56] Elizabeth: I mean, well, Yeah, it was just it, and it was one of those e examples of like, I feel adverse. To my environment and my situation, why do I feel adverse to it all the time? What's gotta change? And it's just like the Rubik's cube that you keep spinning and turning and spinning and turning and spinning and turning.
And I'm still spinning and turning it,
[00:33:15] Aaron: So through like all these changes and all the adversity that you've faced through your career, has having that double degree played any role in that I like math, I can be an accountant, I can go and do this other thing. Has that been present in mind, or is that,
[00:33:30] Elizabeth: Yeah, for a minute, but not really in any realistic way. And especially now it's like, I'm too old, but I was like, if I could find somewhere cool to go be like Betty, the bookkeeper at a mechanics shop or something, you know, I kind of have like this tiny little fantasy about that. Um, But, not really because I learned that I have to work for myself.
I can work with other people where they're the boss of me in certain situations, and I'm the boss of them in certain situations, you know, but I, can't step into a machine that's been created by a business model and be a nut or a bolt that turns in that, machine.
It's just not how I'm wired.
And I have to make it by hooker, by crook some other way,
[00:34:12] Aaron: yeah. It seems like you've created quite the business for yourself. Between being a host on, on Outlaw radio and having your TV show and having your clothing line, now you have quite a few
[00:34:23] Elizabeth: Yeah. And talking about have those degrees served, so I shouldn't dismiss it as have they served only in context of whether or not I would go do that as a backup job, plan B, or whatever they have served in. I knew, that I needed to diversify
Mm-hmm. Early on, that I wanted to diversify that that was a good thing for a business to do.
So I learned that from doing the radio show. I didn't really know that going in. so it was like, oh, well I've always got that in my back pocket. And then I was like, oh, diversification is good. Oh, I remember them saying that in school like, businesses should have diversity to be protected in case of catastrophe in one area.
and then that morphed into the TV show and the TV show. The only way I would do it is okay, I wanted to like, have a conversation on a boat while fishing. That's what I wanna do. And so I got to do that. And that's, the creative dru, you that I had.
The thing with Sabella Elena, my costume designer women for Sheriff, that little brand is like another place that we. Get to create and have fun. And there's, there's work that comes with it, for sure because you know, as a baby brand and especially se takes on a lot of administrative work.
But I take on some too and like how to try to, stay in the place of like enjoying the creations that we are making while doing some of the like more painful parts of, running a business, you know? And that is the, Seesaw we're trying to even out, I guess. and so I've really learned it during the pandemic and I was like, thank God I had the radio show and even though I had a TV show, we were able to film some cuz it was outside.
So like that helped, you know, and we could put in certain place, certain protocols and Been making a movie for a long time that's finally getting, wrapped up, so that's gonna be cool. I know, I know it is. So that's another thing that's been going, but I am staying home off the road for the first time in 15 years, so that's another thing
[00:36:22] Aaron: Yeah, you just said that. Yeah. Is that scary? Are you scared? Are you, are you happy? Yeah. See, that's the, that's the mindset I'm in.
[00:36:30] Elizabeth: Yeah,
[00:36:31] Aaron: but didn't
[00:36:31] Michaela: you, I, I just said to Erin before this, I said she's taking the next year off of touring, and he was like, yeah, but she just announced a bunch of shows.
[00:36:39] Elizabeth: So
I know. Yeah, I know it. What does that tell you? I know it, so I think literally I've done only like three shows, I think this year so far. And for the rest of the year, including the Willie Tour, this is the mindset of social media.
Make it look like, whoa. I think I've got eight shows this year. I'm doing something for West Virginia Arts Council doing something for Georgia Music Foundation that announced today. I'm doing six shows with Willie Nelson in October,
[00:37:07] Michaela: Not bad,
[00:37:08] Elizabeth: it. But I'm not going out oh, we haven't hit, the northwest in six months and, you know, it's time to get back.
You know, I'm not doing that grind touring. That's, a hundred, 150 or more shows a year,
[00:37:21] Michaela: yeah, Yeah. And that break feels good.
[00:37:23] Elizabeth: Oh my gosh, yes, it's the best. So then I get to create another places and focus on my health and do stuff like this and, be more available to myself and to, foster, my work in other ways.
And, so yeah, it feels, good. Feels good.
[00:37:40] Aaron: I love hearing that because I hear, people that are, earlier on in their career have a big fear of diversification or, stepping back from like only writing and touring because they feel like If they don't put a thousand percent energy into that one thing, then they're gonna fail, and that's gonna be it.
And in my own experience, the more I've diversified and the more that I've started doing, it's this whole ecosystem that one thing feeds the other and inspires the other.
[00:38:04] Michaela: he's talking about me.
[00:38:06] Elizabeth: You.
[00:38:07] Aaron: actually, I actually wasn't on that one, but
[00:38:10] Michaela: I've struggled with the pandemic and then also having a child of the step back from touring as much as I used to.
And being like just that fear driven thing of like, no, if you seemingly pause or stop, then you're gonna fall off and you're gonna be forgotten and
[00:38:28] Elizabeth: I have that too. I might feel that way in an hour, Yeah.
for sure. Totally. Totally. But again, and then, but then the F word, fear driven. you just have to keep boldly serving, what feels good to you to do and how you spend your time and efforts.
And if you want to take up, picture framing or, carpentry or whatever, to understand that can serve your music career,
And, I don't know. I love that. I love art artists that do a few different creative things. A lot of artists paint.
Allison Moore, I just got one of her paintings. Kevin Kenny, I just got one of his paintings.
[00:39:03] Aaron: that's why it's. Like your concept of just uh, creative life as a whole, everything's moving in the same direction. one vehicle might be a little faster one day than the other one vehicle might need a little gas for a little bit.
Mm-hmm. But a much larger thing all kind of moving together in concert.
[00:39:18] Elizabeth: And it should feel easy and just trusting. That's the heart. Distrust you gotta trust cuz you can't control everything that's gonna happen in every opportunity that is or isn't gonna come your
[00:39:28] Michaela: Right.
[00:39:28] Elizabeth: I feel like if you keep putting your earnest heart out there, in your creative way, in a loving way to yourself, that.
The good things start to come more often and bad shit still happens too. But you can get a little bit more peace with the process
And the sooner you can get the better. You know. And I'm not saying I am, but I'm a lot further than I was And it's taken a long time.
[00:39:53] Aaron: everybody's got their own timeline, with having these multiple outlets, when the bad shit does happen, as you diversify more and more, does it feel like you have better chalk absorbers for things that are going on? So if, you know, you hit a pothole, with, your touring career, you know, there's this movie happening and if there's a halt in the movie, you have the TV show that's preparing something new.
is that a reality for you, or is that just my own imagination?
[00:40:20] Elizabeth: it sometimes, but in some ways, honestly, it's like a tree fell on my house in that weird afternoon, sunny day windstorm. We had pierced the bedroom where we sleep, tree a hundred year old oak. And I watched it fall out my window and ran for my life and thought it might hit my family, you know?
So anyway, no. I have resented that happening because it has taken me away from these other parts. What it has done is forced me to create in that room again, cuz I have to rebuild, remake the whole room now. And the energy's all changed and we put in different floors. And the floors, when I go and look at the samples have to give me a certain feeling and feel good when I look at them to and picture them.
And I'm gonna think about it and compare. And so my creativity over this past few weeks, once they were done doing the major structural repairs, has been turned to recreating my sleep space. And I resent that. I'm not working on music for the movie right now, or out exercising or working on my health or, creating a new meal or, you know, spending time with my dog or gardening or running errands or what, catching up with a friend, whatever, I resent that cuz it was not planned for me to put my
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But here we are. and I'm fortunate to be with a partner that understands that. The rug matters and why it matters and it's gonna be a thing, man. And it's gone pretty, smoothly and we're happy so far. So over the weekend it was looking at end tables for the bed to go on each side.
So it's gotta be a certain thing, you know, and it's gotta,
[00:41:58] Michaela: Mm-hmm. That perspective, it's blowing my mind right now that I I wanted to piggyback on that of asking, a part of your story is a lot of the loss and adversity that you've experienced in family, in your personal life, and, how that one is so emotionally, Challenging to go through.
And then also how it takes you away from a career, a creativity that really requires a lot of energy and time, and doesn't have all these safety nets of oh, you have to go take care of yourself for a few months. Well, We'll put you on paid leave. You know? So having that kind of, when you have to take care of yourself, and then that shift of mindset of, okay, I'm pissed that this is taking me away from the things that I want to be focusing on, but how do I look at this creative energy that is going to be brewing from, what is required of me over here right now?
And really being open to where those things take you because we all, at some point in life experience, Major losses and health issues and things that take time and take us away from being able to sit and write songs or record a record every day,
[00:43:08] Elizabeth: Right. Yeah.
[00:43:09] Michaela: how to honor and respect that.
[00:43:11] Elizabeth: It's all art, Changing that diaper, make it art. People make frappuccinos every day and make it art or whatever they do on the top of their coffee drinks. You know, it's like, make it art. Why not? But if your job's to be an artist, keeping just that one little dual lane going along with the obligations of adulthood is to me been imperative, get into a happier place.
And a lot of times what we're doing when we're doing those things and trying to make it art is just consoling ourselves and processing the bad stuff. And the more you can incorporate that, Exercise of, consoling yourself My neighbor is a cool artist named Kimberly Clo, and she says to making everything new according to my pleasure.
So I have to go do that. I have to go down there and I'll have to stand in line at that post office. And I hate that place as they ain't mop the floor since the seventies in there. And, you know, people are pissed and everybody's gonna drive like an asshole the whole way there. You know, How can I make it art?
Maybe I'll take a back road. Maybe I'll put a weird scarf on my head. Maybe I'll, I don't know. I can't do that, then I'm not a happy person, basically. And the bigger picture is just we're all here for a finite amount of time on this rock and we can make this experience pretty much whatever we choose.
To make it and sometimes it's hard to appreciate that for sure. But just accepting, that tree fall and I was like, son him a bed. You know?
[00:44:41] Michaela: That's beautiful. We're towards the end of our time. I wanted to ask one last question before we close. One thing that stands out to me about you is how supportive you are of other women, which unfortunately still can feel like something that has to be elevated in our, culture and in the music business.
But my experience, you know, you and Carlene Carter are really good friends and of different generations, and my interactions have always been, you guys are so incredibly embracing of younger generations coming up, of other women, of elevating other women. And I think that, That's a really incredible thing.
I remember so distinctly, I think it was JP Harris's, like Sunday morning, come down at America Fest, the party we were all playing and I, you and I were behind the stage years ago, and I remember you stopped me and you said, just something so simple of like, I see you.
[00:45:34] Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:35] Michaela: Like really encouraging of like, I see what you're doing, keep going.
And I think a lot about, was that something that was just innately in you? Are you conscious of it? Have you had to like undo any, teachings from how little girls can be brought up if there's only room for
[00:45:51] Elizabeth: Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's Snow White and Cinderella. If a guy don't save you, you're gonna die. You better want you. You better look a certain way. You better, I'm in competition with this other person for this.
Yeah, all that. Such a, Such a head fuck. I'll always like to lead with kindness and support with anybody that's doing this because it's hard.
I'm also not gonna say I'm supportive of all women. I'm not, I'm not supportive of all men. I'm supportive of people, and especially women that I think are talented and that inspire me. So I need you around, and I see the hustle the girls doing it for the Cinderella reasons.
And then I feel like I see the girls trying to eek out their art and their heart and serve too, and that are gifted those women, I mean, I'll lay down on a train track for, because yeah. I mean, I like more good women. I like more gooder women. Um, I like, you know, with like the chicks and this is, this is maybe a, a silly note to end on, but like, sex in the City was of such an important TV show because it showed women how to be friends. and the Golden Girls showing women how to be friends, designing women, showing women how to be friends.
Because that's not something that was all demonstrated in our fairy tales. It was all about you better hope some best dude comes along and gets your ass. Pretty much all of them, Seeing examples of why that, which is in art, those TV shows are art to me, is like such a service.
and I was like, oh yeah, you know, I need, my sisters in art and cause and, and that I just think are good. And I, I just feel excited by them. So I'm like, want them to do well.
[00:47:39] Aaron: Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much for spending your morning with us
[00:47:42] Elizabeth: You guys too. Thank you and, and congratulations on the human you're creating over there in your ode and on your, all your endeavors and your work. You're very so talented. I'm glad you're doing this and exploring and it's very cool.
[00:47:58] Michaela: Thank you
[00:47:58] Elizabeth: too, you know, this is what y'all are doing right here.
So love it love it, and it'll love you back. I think, I hope most of the time anyway, maybe
[00:48:05] Aaron: good.
[00:48:07] Elizabeth: till the tree falls on your house,
Yeah,
[00:48:09] Aaron: exactly.