Evan Honer turned viral success of a Tyler Childers cover (50mil + streams), into success for his own music with over 250mil streams, and multiple 7-figure offers from most major labels - all of which he decline in favor of staying independent, opting to start his own label (Cloverdale) and helping other young artists gain streaming traction while maintaining ownership of their art. Our youngest guest to date, we talk to Evan about betting on yourself, navigating the frequent ups and downs and direction changes of a social media-centric approach to your career, using your platform and reach to boost and platform your peers, the simple pleasures when you get back from tour, and more.
Evan Honer turned viral success of a Tyler Childers cover (50mil + streams), into success for his own music with over 250mil streams, and multiple 7-figure offers from most major labels - all of which he decline in favor of staying independent, opting to start his own label (Cloverdale) and helping other young artists gain streaming traction while maintaining ownership of their art. Our youngest guest to date, we talk to Evan about betting on yourself, navigating the frequent ups and downs and direction changes of a social media-centric approach to your career, using your platform and reach to boost and platform your peers, the simple pleasures when you get back from tour, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:09] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne, and this is the second year of our podcast. We're so excited to still be here and thankful that you're here listening.
[00:00:20] Aaron: Yeah, because without listeners, we're just recording things for fun. And so we couldn't have this show without you guys here with that. We have a few asks before we jump into today's episode. It takes a lot to produce even a small show Like ours. So if you're so inclined to help us continue having these conversations and sharing information with you guys, we have a Patrion.
There's a link below in the show notes and there you can get all the normal Patrion stuff. You can get one on one coaching with Michaela or I, if there are spots You can get advance notice of guests so that they can answer your questions directly. And if you don't want to jump into the deep end right off, please just subscribe or follow on your listening platform of choice or YouTube, if you're watching us there and better yet, take your favorite episode and just share it with somebody that doesn't know what we're doing. Find out about this show somehow.
Maybe somebody told you about it. You saw it on social media, just. however, you found out about this show, just pay it forward that way.
[00:01:15] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on for this podcast is that we are not music journalists. We are musicians
ourselves. So we don't really think about this as interviews. We think of them as conversations where we're able to feel like we're sitting
around the dinner table, having honest, vulnerable conversations about the reality of building a lifelong career around your art.
[00:01:38] Aaron: Which is a journey in things that are completely outside of our control.
And so we like to focus these conversations on what is within our control. And by that we mean our habits, our routines, our mindsets, Talking about what is outside of our control today with our guest, Evan Hohner.
[00:01:54] Michaela: it's a little bit different than what we usually do for this podcast.
We have the premise that we like to talk to people when they're five, 10 plus years into their career, not on the rise. and Evan is still in the very early stages of his career. He's pretty young in his early twenties. And he is a viral success story but we wanted to kind of make an exception and talk to him because he has such an interesting journey already.
He's had the typical viral, success. And instead of going the major label route, he has turned down seven figure label offers, Grammy winning producers to completely stay independent.
[00:02:31] Aaron: for us in our judgment, he's a step past the viral success where there's some, continuity past that. It's not just a one and done thing. He has,
collaborated with Liam St. John, Wyatt Flores, Vincent Mason, and he started his own uh, we'll say label. He hasn't quite found a name that fits what his approach is. But for all intents and purposes here, it is a label called Cloverdale Records. He releases his records on there.
He also has a bunch of artists on that label that he collaborates with, that he helps record. And it's basically his attempt to build community and a coalition, if you will, that can provide for artists in an independent way, the way that major labels do, which is a pretty incredible thing to pay forward.
[00:03:13] Michaela: All while still maintaining ownership of their masters, which is something he really advocates for. And something that has only recently come to light publicly of artists, typically not owning the master recordings of their work if they have record label deals.
[00:03:30] Aaron: as I mentioned, we spend a lot of time focusing on what is not In our control, which is most things in this industry. And Evan is keenly aware of that, both in regards to social media, in regards to streaming numbers, in regards to ticket sales, as we all are. he has a pretty refreshing view as Michaela said, it's a different approach than we normally take in these episodes.
So without further ado, here's our conversation with Evan Hohner.
[00:03:51] Michaela: your story is particularly interesting to us because get pitched a lot of like people who've gotten success on becoming viral, but your whole premise of to stay completely independent and turning down like big record deals and producers and then starting your own label and Really advocating for master ownership and building community.
were like, okay, we really want to talk about that. And how did you already come to that at such a young age?
I think it helped a lot with I overthink things a lot. So before I do anything, I think about it a lot. And I talked to so many friends that were in major label deals or were talking to people. And every single conversation I had with one of those people that was in a major label was like, single one was like, I'm stuck in this deal.
[00:04:44] Evan: I don't have any money. Like, they control what I can do. They can control what I release. And I literally had not heard anything positive. so around this time, I had a song due really well. And I started getting emails and stuff. and I had already heard this from all my friends. And so I'm like, This really doesn't make sense to do this. even though, as an artist, it seems like that's the only way to go. And I was still wasn't fully sold on independent, cause I'm like, okay, you have to sign a record deal, like, I'm not gonna be able to make this work if I don't. but, I don't know, it's been a long process of,
convincing myself that this is gonna work out.
And then it eventually starts working out, and then, then I started to believe it for myself, And I think it just, took that little bit of just, Convincing myself that it's gonna work out, And seeing like a little bit of success, And then finally like, I think this could work.
[00:05:39] Michaela: what was that process like of combating that fear and making that decision and turning it down cause really you have to just like. Bet on yourself.
I'm so curious because I've had indie label deals for the last 10 years and It's benefited me in some ways, I think, and in other ways, I just got out of my label deal because of this kind of stuff of Oh, I didn't feel like I could just record a song and put it out and also, it started to really not sit right with me I don't own any of my music, and I'm like, this is pretty wild, like I just made a record, and Aaron produces my stuff, and we made it together.
In our recording studio that he built with his dad, with his own hands, and like songs, we have a child, and like songs that I wrote about our, family and our life, and I was like, wait. And some company's just going to own that forever? This feels fucked.
[00:06:35] Evan: Yeah, it's super fucked. It's so, yeah.
[00:06:38] Michaela: Yeah, and I'm like careful because I don't want to disparage. It's a system
that's been in place, but I think it's people like you who also have a bigger platform and are young being like,
no guys,
let's change this. So can you talk about
[00:06:51] Evan: Yeah. I think it,
I think you're definitely right. I think it's, a system that has worked for so many years.but social media has completely changed the game. major labels are not necessary right
now.
And I, I don't think that there'll be, like, a thing in like 10 years. The world is changing and I think major labels are just like an old thing now in my opinion it's tough to get over that fear and myself was, tough, but I had a background with I was a D1 athlete and stuff like that.
I think that played into it. all my brothers are, like, entrepreneurs. My dad owns his own business. I think that played a part of it. have to look at your music career as a business and I don't think a lot of business would just give away like, their main source of their income to a company that, I mean, in some ways could help you, but, there's a lot of ways that they could destroy you, but,
I think, Betting on myself was something that I had been doing for a while. And with music, obviously it's a lot harder because nobody really goes that route. with my family, my upbringing and sports, maybe that could have
helped me just kind of get over the fear
try fully betting on myself.
[00:07:58] Aaron: they seem like and bloated and like slow. And I think like right now is a time of like where pays off in a career and
[00:08:06] Evan: Mm hmm.
[00:08:07] Aaron: do it quickly and then do this and do this quickly and just follow in a way it's kind of really
[00:08:10] Evan: Yeah. Yes,
[00:08:13] Aaron: put out there and what you want to do and you quickly.
And like. I see, you know, fans or whatever, numbers, whatever. I see attention being paid to people that are like to do things quickly stuff all the time. And then I see labels reacting to that. So it's like once you already build and you already get attention, labelers are like, Hey man, let's do this together.
And you're like, I'm doing it by myself. Why? Like, what, What are you gonna do? Mm-Hmm.
[00:08:37] Evan: Exactly. Exactly. And that's the thing that so many artists will sign to record labels thinking that they're gonna change their lives, and all they're gonna say is, keep doing, what you're doing, posting on TikTok, we'll just take a large percentage of it. that's the whole game right now, is keep posting you don't need a CEO to tell you, just keep posting on TikTok
these two artists that I watched their Mm-Hmm? don't know if you've heard it. It's the independent podcast with Nick D and Connor price. But they're both two independent artists and it was super cool to see because Connor price started the podcast at around like 30, 000 monthly listeners. And he had Nick D on it. That was like more established artists, both independent. And I was following the podcast along with his music career, they were just talking about like, social media is the game right now, like that's what you have to do. And Conor Price climbed to right now he's like 8 million monthly listeners, completely independent. touring and it was so cool to see him literally start out talking about being independent at
30 000 monthly listeners and then like grow and he like doesn't do the podcast anymore because he's like touring and stuff But it was see that grow like
completely independently. Yeah
[00:09:53] Aaron: I guess, kind of planting a flag is it just like
continuity?
Is that or and whatever happens
[00:10:00] Michaela: Change your mindset of like, how do
you recreate that?
[00:10:04] Evan: I don't think anybody has any idea how to do this stuff. I thought I had it figured out, and then, you know, you just go up and down with, as far as, numbers on social media.I had things planned out where, like, okay, these, like, professional looking videos, What's doing good right now.
And then I'll post like silly video of me stitching, a video. And it does way better than the videos that I put so much time and effort in.
you try to have a plan and then it just like goes out the window. And that's why I think everyone's literally just trying to figure it out.
I don't have like a certain plan or like, certain schedule or anything like that.
[00:10:39] Aaron: know having like a finish line and it's ah, like things will be cool. Once I get this viral video, everything will be cool.
And like, I
[00:10:46] Evan: Mm hmm.
[00:10:46] Aaron: happening for anybody.
[00:10:48] Evan: Yeah. it's funny you say that because I, think we all do that. I, my senior year of college, I said if I get to a hundred thousand months of listeners and I'm dropping out and like I got to it and I was like, okay, wait, I actually probably should just finish school Um, so yeah, it always like that one thing You're like if I just get this then i'll be like completely set and i'm i'll be fine.
I'll be good forever I think social media keeps you humble in that way, especially TikTok, with just the algorithm it's super, super frustrating, and it's honestly like, it's the biggest thing that messes with my mental and I wish that wasn't the case, but it is.
the thing that I'm trying to remember is that I don't have control of it and like The things that I do have control of is releasing songs that I'm proud of on a consistent basis. Touring putting my, best effort into the shows and making the best show I can.
putting. people around me that are gonna help me. can put all the effort I can into these videos and like, whatever it is, but it's ultimately not up to me. It's up to the algorithm. I've been trying to like realize that.
And it has brought me a little bit of peace of mind sometimes. that's important just trying to understand like, okay, control the things that you can control,
but don't stress about the things that, control.
[00:12:07] Michaela: curious about how it's changing all of
our lives. Yeah. Yeah.
and also is for, for people in their early twenties with this versus like, media until college.
[00:12:20] Aaron: Yeah, for sure. I mean, like, Even in college bands, I was in, we were, we were booking gigs on my space.
Yeah. You know what I mean? there's like bands and of people that I made like, you know, in Brooklyn, for
[00:12:29] Evan: that's so sick.
[00:12:31] Michaela: uh, It was a group of I made a lot of, music with them. And then we had a group is we all lived in Nashville for a little while. But like that whole circle formed like on a very, different
and I think the challenge TikTok and Instagram is like,
[00:12:45] Evan: Yeah.
[00:12:45] Michaela: we put out there starts getting a lot of response, we just automatically think, Oh, this is cause I, I, I'm good.
I did good. put value, we let it give, then if it doesn't, we don't think, Oh, all of this is just algorithm.
[00:13:01] Evan: Mm hmm, yeah,
[00:13:03] Michaela: was stupid. So how. Have you struggled with that? Have you, like, thought about
of stuff?
Because I think there's also this people who have a lot of followers or
who have experienced viral success are somehow immune to that because they have more.
And what I think I keep seeing no, all of those feelings just get heightened and, and
[00:13:27] Evan: I thought it would get easier doesn't really get easier, honestly I still have to like, constantly, talk myself up before like, posting something or whatever it is, but that is definitely something that has been a struggle of mine, is like, okay, I post this song it did really well, so that means it's a good song. And if I post this new song and it doesn't do well, that means it's a bad song, right?it's hard to not believe that, honestly. But I think an example of that is my biggest,
original song had never done anything. On social media ever. It never had like a moment. and it's
my most streamed song So I don't really know how that works. Honestly, but
I guess there's some songs that are maybe very Attractive for tiktok people use the sound and stuff like that but some songs maybe you have to hear the whole song don't know how it did well as it did without any like, social media traction at all.
but that, Foolin Ourselves is, my biggest original song, and it's never had a viral moment or anything like that. I think that gives me peace of mind. like, okay, if the song is good, hopefully, eventually people will hear it.another good example of that is Pine Grove.
mean, they had a dedicated fan base and they were playing like, pretty large thousand cap rooms. but they had broken up for, I don't know, however long. And then the Pine Grove Shuffle, did you guys see that? That was going on or no? Okay. Well, One of their songs the album that they released years and years ago.
There's this video of this guy doing a shuffle to the song and the song went super viral, completely changed the course of their, career. I feel like it's so easy to think okay, good song equals bad song. Likes on tiktok and bad song equals no likes But the internet is so weird that you could have a song blow up 10 years after you released it I think that's something that i've been trying to understand is like if i'm proud of the song, I think people will
hear it everything has
its own timeline something will happen if it's happen.
[00:15:40] Aaron: Algorithms on TikTok, on Instagram, on whatever it is, are not written and geared towards music and art. they're written for that app, and the way that app works, and the engagement on that app. So all the response is measuring is like, how well, You did what the app thinks that
Not how good your art is, right? It's not like some programmed panel on American idol or You know what I mean?
it's programmed to keep people engaged with their apps so they can make more money. the algorithm doesn't care if you're making music or you're, cross some funny
[00:16:16] Evan: very true
[00:16:17] Aaron: That original song you said that get like a media moment,did it hit the streaming algorithm? did Spotify, put it on playlists and stuff like that prior to it blowing up?
[00:16:26] Evan: got no playlist I don't think it's gotten an editorial to this day. I have no idea. Maybe itlike that radio thing on Spotify or something like that. Or whatever data Spotify has, like people listen to it more.
So they pushed it out. I'm not sure, but didn't help from TikTok, Instagram, or editorials at all. So I didn't expect do that well at all.
[00:16:50] Michaela: can you feel that it's a fan favorite, like in live shows?
[00:16:53] Evan: For sure, yeah, definitely. I play it last, so it's definitely a fan
[00:16:58] Aaron: Yeah, have you had to, explicitly make, an effort to translate, TikTok fans, social media fans, Spotify fans to live shows? pull people over in a way?
[00:17:11] Evan: Yeah So I just finished my first headline tour in February and I'm extremely grateful that all the dates sold out. I mean, I'm playing like anywhere between 200 and 750 was the largest room So not like insanely large rooms, but still like pretty decent.
Yeah. think when it comes to, ticket sales, it's really different. I don't think, having a large following on TikTok or Instagram equals people coming to your shows. I don't think month of the listeners equal that either.
It must be something different. There's other things that like send people emails and stuff like that. I don't know exactly what it is, but there's a lot of people that, are way bigger than me that don't sell as many tickets, which I don't know exactly what that is from.
maybe it's just a certain connection with the music and uh, I definitely think right now like, this type of music is popular like, definitely. Noah Kahn and Zach Bryan ish music, definitely could play a part into it. I didn't do necessarily anything different.
I just posted the tour dates on Instagram and TikTok and, that was pretty much it. And people came out to the show. I don't know if there's any like special trick, but if anybody has it, I would love to know.
[00:18:27] Aaron: Yeah. Likewise, it seems like everybody is scratching their heads. And by everybody, I'm talking like booking agents too. And promoters are like, it's this weird, dichotomy where we so datafrom people what people watch and what people listen to and like microscopic view of like people's, habits and no ability to predict what they are going to do.
you think with so much data, we'd be able to be like, okay we can predict that they're going to do this. And it's like, everybody's like, I have no idea.
[00:18:54] Evan: no idea. And I think a lot of people likein the rap genre tickets are really struggling to sell with that genre or,for whatever reason, but, there's just so many things that play into it. I know like right after COVID people were excited to go out.
So the ticket sales were likegoing up and then like.people just started getting bored again. I'm not sure there's so many things that I feel like could go into it.
[00:19:17] Aaron: I don't mean to spread conspiracy theories or information, the black keys just famously like canceled their North American tour, like their arena tour and they're rescheduling it. And I've heard talk around town with people that work in the industry that they were selling less than 5, 000 tickets in some of these arenas.
The Black Keys. Yeah, that's
it's insane. like I said, I haven't seen like actual numbers, but like that's crazy. You know, when you have a, 20, 000 seat like 5, 000 tickets, that's scary.
[00:19:46] Evan: Yeah.
that's so funny. I saw them I played a show in Dublin and they're doing like a little DJ set in Dublin at the same time. It was crazy. because they're one of the biggest bands
[00:19:57] Michaela: I know, but also, the other thing, like you said, music has trends. It could also be that maybe the trend of the big rock band the Black Keys is, going away right now. And so like we had, the drummer from Blowfish on here. And he was talking about experiencing that wave of when Hootie and the Blowfish was like the biggest band in the world.
And then their ticket sales started going
[00:20:19] Evan: Mm hmm.
[00:20:20] Michaela: they just weren't as popular anymore. And now there's like a nostalgia revival where. People are going bands from the 90s and right
and their ticket sales are growing again So it's 30 years after they put out their first record. Context is so important and I think for artists We can just think it's a zero sum game of is our music good then it should be doing well And it's like no, that's that's Definitely not how this
[00:20:42] Evan: definitely not how it works. Yeah
[00:20:44] Michaela: There are so many other factors, all these different platforms we have to change and get used to every few years.
And also what's happening in the world, what the economy is like, it's like
about how ticket sales are so expensive and ticket fees and processing fees and all this our success is not just a direct reflection on we good at making
[00:21:05] Evan: hmm Yep, 100. Yeah, I think that also plays into what i'm just like realizing now is like how TikTok and social media like I have ups and downs Same with ticket sales that happens and not in our control a great point. It's just not something that we can't control So there's no reason to beat yourself up over it
Yeah,
[00:21:23] Michaela: and I think it's a really big skill to learn let all the little bumps like roll off of you rather than, I used to, go out on tour for a long periods of time. So like if you're out for six weeks or something, some nights are great. Some nights are bad. That's just how it goes.
And it would be so emotionally draining to put so much energy into every single up and down get super high offthe good ones and super low. I started mountain biking a few years ago and I really like sports and nature metaphors for life. Aaron's been mountain biking whole life.
And when I started, I was like looking at every single rock and route that I was going over and he was just You can't like magnify it and I feel like that's the approach you have to have with your career
[00:22:07] Aaron: just let it ride
[00:22:08] Michaela: Yeah, you can't look at every little thing
[00:22:11] Evan: That's another reason why I feel like artists are so easy to look at as oh, they went crazy like,I saw John Bellion talk about this don't call artists crazy because they go through so much. and I experienced that firsthand. I didn't realize how Up and down tour really is it's the highest high and the lowest low and Ifully felt Every single low and I fully felt every highand i'm not like a really emotional person, but I've got emotional on tour there's so many things that play into it I was sick felt horrible and then I lost my voice people look at artists like, oh, they went crazy, they're crazy like, it's so, up and down, we can't help it, I
[00:22:50] Aaron: Yeah, a lot of artists don't really talk about it amongst themselves it's a tide that's just starting to turn. And there are routines, there are habits you can use to smooth out those things, I've always liked to relate it to surfing.
Really. catch a wave and ride the wave and just hope you can hold out on that. Long enough to the next wave and like that you don't bury your board in the sand and just completely eat shit
[00:23:11] Michaela: when you're starting out it's so fun exciting and it takes a while to learn oh there might be things I need to develop discipline on the road.
[00:23:20] Evan: For sure.
[00:23:20] Michaela: from life This is more important than ever to figure out ways to take care of myself
it is
[00:23:25] Aaron: a business, like you were saying. Yeah. Like your
[00:23:28] Michaela: business depends on
[00:23:30] Evan: Mm
[00:23:30] Michaela: Able to manage that tour.
[00:23:32] Evan: A hundred percent.
[00:23:33] Michaela: Have you learned anything like quickly from that of Oh, do I need my drinking or whatever it is?
And like also curious how your you are a diver,
[00:23:44] Evan: Mm hmm. Yeah.
[00:23:45] Michaela: that kind of training has helped in any way?
[00:23:47] Evan: Yeah. I definitely think. I've had a couple nights where I've just decided to like, not think about my consequences for the next day, and then I realized so soon, like, how, drinking the night before a show is just the worst thing I could do for my voice, every time.
whatever it is, it just like completely messes up your voice. think I learned that pretty quick on tour. Especially my headline tour like, couple opening slots, definitelyfigured it out early with the opening slots, and those are a lot easier because you don't have to sing as long.
So you can kind of, get away with it almost.
[00:24:21] Aaron: just white knuckle the whole thing.
[00:24:22] Evan: Yeah
like, My band went out and I just went back to the Airbnb and I'm like, I just can't do it. My voice is already tired. I'm going to drink and then when I drink, then I don't know how loud I am I'm just going to talk louder than I normally would. So that's the one thing I can't get drunk, pretty much. I really can't. Or else, it's just gonna not work out for everybody. Sleep is something that I haven't figured out yet. I don't know how to get more sleep, honestly.
I think once we have a tour bus, it'll be easier. Cause a couple of those runs we would leave straight from the venue and drive through the night. And I just can't sleep in a van.
I mean the main thing, like I cut out coffee for, it's been maybe like a year. Just because messes with my voice a lot. So I don't drink coffee anymore.
I just drink tea.
[00:25:14] Aaron: that's helped?
[00:25:15] Evan: I think so. Yeah, honestly I,is a correlation at all, but I would have like a lot of congestion sometimes, and I felt like I was always trying to clear my throat. So I cut out coffee and I haven't really had that issue. I don't know if that is the thing or not, but it's helped me.
Yeah.
[00:25:31] Aaron: is
[00:25:31] Evan: the one to talk to about that.
[00:25:32] Michaela: Yeah, I'm, I'm a vocal coach and yes, that definitely helps.
[00:25:36] Evan: Okay, yeah.
[00:25:37] Michaela: I feel like a lot of people like the direct correlation of, things like sugar and dairy and how they're phlegm building or dehydrating. All of that stuff really impacts your voice.
So My whole philosophy as a, vocal coach is always telling people like, you need to learn about your body how things impact it. And then, your limits
I know what I'm extremely sensitive to and.
There are a lot of things that love, like coffee and cheese, and if I'm not touring for a while, I just do what I want, but if I know I'm going to be recording tour, I'm like, I can't enjoy a lot of things that I
the
[00:26:14] Evan: Yep.
[00:26:15] Michaela: it hurts and it just, it changes it completely. I've done one tour on a tour bus, and I slept pretty well, but depends on, the terrain and where you are, like sometimes that's even harder
I had this conversation with my uncle, who's a Broadway performer and not a touring musician, but a singer and dancer and stuff we were talking about super pop stars and if they ever Lament anything about their life and he was like, I don't feel sorry for them at all they're multi millionaires and I was like I don't know though.
I think like, kind of shitty to think that if you're massively successful and you have a lot of money then you have nothing to complain about. But I think it's really difficult to know what the actual sacrifices are. That are made behind the scenes when you have such a rigorous tour schedule.
even on a beginning level I think a lot of people don't understand even if they look at your tour routing the driving that. guys are doing driving through the night and then being expected to stand up on stage and perform and doing that night after night after night where you don't have recovery. I think that's an important thing to talk about as well. yes, it's a privilege to get to do what we love, it's also like accustomed or expected to do this.and this thing, because the industry has dictated to us that we need to do. And I think it's exciting to think about this.
Isn't the only way we have to do it.
We could eventually be like, maybe I don't want to do that tour routing.
you
[00:27:41] Evan: Um,
[00:27:42] Michaela: Know if you're doing a support tour, it's different, when you have your own even sometimes it's a battle with of like.no, we can't do that.
I need
[00:27:50] Aaron: more than two days to drive from Dallas
[00:27:52] Michaela: to LA.
[00:27:53] Evan: Yeah.I, yeah, I pretty much told her, I'm like, I think three shows in a row is like the most I can do I mean, Lizzie McAlpine is, she changed up her tour completely. she was saying that previously she hated tour just because of how tedious it was and And now her shows are like super chill. She wears headphones andshe sits down and,plays like a couple of shows a month. which is interesting, but it likeworks for her. So she's up to the point where like. I can do whatever I want. If this gonna be the best thing for me, then I'm gonna just do this.
[00:28:23] Aaron: like you were saying about labels starting to disappear, I think this idea that you need to be on the road for Three weeks, five weeks straight, and hit all of the A markets and then take a month and then hit all the B markets and then hit all the C markets and then, release a record and do it all over again.
[00:28:40] Evan: Yeah.
[00:28:40] Aaron: if that's necessarily true.
[00:28:42] Evan: I always catch myself thinking through a decision with that, whether it's a release or whatever it is. I'm, like, always thinking about how that it, Has been done and how it technically should be done that I'm like forgetting like Actually, there's no rules to this at all.
And none of this matters the way you do it. that's something that I've been trying to remind myself. It's there's no specific way to do it everything has been thrown out the window since social media came there's just so many variables that it's like how you do it does a million ways to do it
[00:29:12] Aaron: that's a great segue for me I want to talk a little bit more about Cloverdale and your label because you have Other artists on that label, right? Like you've signed other artists. Can you talk a little bit more about that, like your philosophy behind that? We started labels aren't gonna exist in 10 years, but like, you have your own label.
[00:29:28] Evan: guess we can call it a label I don't really know if it's called a label, but
It's essentially just a way To try to put ourselves on the same playing field as major labels, as far as releasing and distribution. So we use stem, which a lot of major labels, big loud was using it but they,switched to something else.
So first of all, likereleasing through stem at least gives us A decent shot at getting editorials and stuff like that. And then, I guess I call it a label, but there's not really any signing anyway. it just started off with my friends.
I'm trying to like create thiscommunity of artists where we can all collab. I bring a lot of them on tour. so right now I'm currently building out a studio in the garage I want to make it where people can come and record, we're pretty much just signing my friends really. And then maybe it'll be a bigger thing. But I wanted to just even the playing field and like,want to stay with Cloverdale, then that'd be awesome.
But, a lot of people are probably going to go on to like, sign to major labels. I feel like that happens a lot. but was just a community of artists where we can try to level the playing field pretty much.
that's the goal.
[00:30:37] Michaela: And elevate each
[00:30:38] Evan: Exactly, yeah.
[00:30:39] Aaron: How are some on recordings, and thenit'd be collaboration on the release as well, right? featured artist
[00:30:50] Evan: we had one song that was just released with four Cloverdale artists on one song. so like, yeah, collaboration. Good distribution. my manager, McAvoy has been through like the major label side now he like completely turned over to just independent.
at the beginning of all of this, we were fully just like social media and just releasing music, but now we're, almost operating as what a major label could do. So like I hired like a publicist team that, they're just trying to work on like the articles and stuff like that.
So like, just trying to basically operate, The best we can as kind of a label. I don't even know if any of the, extra stuff really matters. We're trying to figure it out. and then we're creating like this is Kyle's expertise, but some type of publishing thing with Cloverdale.
But, I really like it because I hang out with all of them, we write together, release songs together, we get to go on tour together, and yeah, hopefully the garage is done we can just record all day.
[00:31:49] Aaron: Yeah, what's a typical timeline look like between recording and release?
[00:31:54] Evan: That's all, it's always so different, when I was just figuring out, I pretty much released my first song, How Could I Ever. that was like the first song I ever wrote. I hadn't had any other songs and I just released it right away. And then I was like, oh shit, I literally have to write more songs to release them.
So at first it was just like, write, record, release. And now I'm like, conceptualizing projects. And it's worse that way almost. I feel like, because hang on to these songs for longer and I like start to hate them. And like, and I almost want to get back to just write, record, release.
Cause I don't think about it too much, Now it seems like I hold on to these songs for like way too long. And then I just like I don't even, want to listen to them ever.
[00:32:37] Michaela: one of the things that I've started getting frustrated with even indie deals of small indie records, the lapse time of you write songs, you make a record, and then you have to wait all the different levels of all the different people to get approval from and like the process and in their bigger schedule, does it fit?
if you're doing a lot on your own. You don't have to wait for the meetings and from the multiple people in the bureaucracy
appeal
all the different projects that they have going on. But yeah, I feel like the appeal record deal is money
to be able to record. we have our own studio, would talk to like my label about this.
I'd be like, yeah, but this isn't free for you guys. Like, we paid for all
[00:33:21] Evan: Mm hmm.
[00:33:22] Michaela: with our money and our sweat equity. Of wanting just compensation and then also the belief that it will somehow get you above All of the noise because there's so much music out
[00:33:32] Evan: Yeah. that's another good point is, obviously like, the artists are not getting a big advance kind of just figuring out what do you actually need? If you need, just a place to record or money to record or whatever, then hopefully we can do that.
Or if you record yourself, then we'll just get you like the best distribution that we can and have you just Be a part of something. But I think that's the main thing is just Not like going overboard and just being like what do you actually need to release?
Music consistently and we're trying to help the best that we can with that.
[00:34:03] Michaela: I think that's awesome for some people who've been operating in the kind of old system, it can feel like a badge of honor to be like, I have a label deal. I have this validation from the industry and I see like the tide kind of turning of it becoming a badge of honor of
I own my shit, and I'm completely independent, and get to do what I want, have you ever heard of the band American Aquarium? BJ was one of our very first guests on
[00:34:30] Evan: Oh,
[00:34:30] Michaela: and BJ is really incredible, and he's like,orders for my, new record, my wife and I just sit and feel love.
Envelopes. Yeah. For like days.
[00:34:42] Evan: Wow. That's crazy.
[00:34:44] Aaron: it would have been two records ago. I'm not even going to attempt to say the last, a comma, whatever the last record. Yeah. The record before that. He was saying they had 20, 000 vinyl pre orders they packaged, stamped, addressed 20, 000 of them in like
[00:34:57] Evan: That's insane.
[00:34:58] Michaela: he was like, why would I give that money to somebody else? Why can't I do that?
And we were talking about like ego shift of he could be like, I don't do that. I'm a big enough artist that I, pay somebody to do that.
And he's like, no, I'm a business. Like
[00:35:11] Aaron: That's awesome. I wish I could do that.that would be incredible. I respect that so much. Yeah, you know, the way he explained it was, the pandemic hit, they would make their on road
[00:35:22] Evan: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.
[00:35:22] Aaron: all the time and the pandemic hit. And he's like, okay, well I can still sell merch. Whole ship station. They have like extra storage.
he went in on that and started printing a bunch of T shirts
basically just started at like a retail store now that like touring's back, he has this basically other business running now
[00:35:39] Evan: That is the best way to do it.
[00:35:41] Michaela: Yeah. And I to be like, there's no one way to do this. It's constantly
[00:35:48] Evan: Yeah.
[00:35:49] Michaela: you can sustainthe are traditional markers of success are shifting so much really getting to hear from people all the inventive ways of You can, like you said, people who have way more followers or TikTok or whatever, and like,can't sell as many tickets and also people who I'm not even on TikTok and I don't have that many Instagram I sustain my livelihood as a musician and have a small devoted fan base.
And it's possible do that, but just sharing knowledge with each other, which is also what I feel like. You're trying to do with Cloverdale and building a community rather than just, we're all just trying to get into the label system and get people to like our music because it's actually not that helpful or run that way.
[00:36:37] Evan: Yeah.
100 percent Yeah, like I said, everything's changing I don't know. what the future holds, but I be surprised the major last More than 10 years.
[00:36:45] Michaela: Yeah. So curious. I just have one more question. Go for it. we talked a lot about business, but what are the things besides music and your music business that you do in life that helps keep you feeling like yourself grounded in this?
What are the things non music that you do to take care of yourself?
[00:37:03] Evan: That's always a question I struggle with because I I'm like I don't really know if I do too much. But recently I would say the thing that has been actually, fun for me is like having this house and owning it and being able to do things to it, like the garage, project.
And this sounds silly, but like mowing my lawn, I've never, I've grew up in Arizona, I've never had a lawn. So like mowing my lawn is something that I like kind of look forward to. Um,just like little things around the house. And I'm like, that currently right now is like thingdoing stuff around the house.
And it takes up a lot of my day sometimes. So if I'm not doing music, then right currently, I'm just figuring out
things with the house or mowing.
[00:37:46] Aaron: Yeah, I love doing that stuff. I mean, you know, we're sitting in my seat. I built this my
[00:37:50] Evan: Yeah.
[00:37:51] Aaron: like, Where music and writing songs, even if you get a whole song out in a day and it's done, There's nothing tangible to show for that.
Even recording something. It's not like we always record a tape and it's like, here it is. versus building out your garage or doing, you can see the work that's
[00:38:06] Evan: hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:38:07] Aaron: Just so like fulfilling in that to me.
[00:38:09] Evan: It really, yeah, it really seeing the thegrass go down
And it looks nice.
[00:38:14] Aaron: Yeah, exactly. It starts to look like a lawn and like
[00:38:18] Michaela: the first year of having our first Mother's Day, want? And I was like, I want to mow the lawn.I was like, I want to mow the lawn. You're like, I want to mow
[00:38:25] Aaron: the lawn,
[00:38:26] Michaela: and I want to drink a cold beer in the shower. In the shower.
[00:38:28] Evan: Let's go.
do it.
like
[00:38:31] Aaron: a great time.
[00:38:32] Evan: Yeah.
[00:38:33] Aaron: Well, cool, man. time to sit with us and to talk with us about this stuff.
[00:38:38] Evan: Of course, yeah, thank you so much for having me.
been an honor.
[00:38:41] Aaron: Yeah, man. All right.
[00:38:42] Evan: See ya