Joseph is a trio of sisters who have released 3 records via ATO, performed on Fallon, Conan, The Today Show, Ellen, Jools Holland, at Coachella, Lollapalooza, Newport Folk, Glastonbury, Outside Lands, and Bonnaroo, and supported The Shins, James Bay, Amos Lee, and more. They recently announced that Allie is choosing to step away from the band, so we discuss this at length - how she came to the decision, the other sisters' reception, what that looks like moving forward both creatively and emotionally, as well as how they navigate family dynamics in the band, approach everything with intentionality, and a whole lot more.
Joseph is a trio of sisters who have released 3 records via ATO, performed on Fallon, Conan, The Today Show, Ellen, Jools Holland, at Coachella, Lollapalooza, Newport Folk, Glastonbury, Outside Lands, and Bonnaroo, and supported The Shins, James Bay, Amos Lee, and more. They recently announced that Allie is choosing to step away from the band, so we discuss this at length - how she came to the decision, the other sisters' reception, what that looks like moving forward both creatively and emotionally, as well as how they navigate family dynamics in the band, approach everything with intentionality, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to today's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And this is our second year of The Other 22 Hours, and we are so happy to still be here and really thankful that you are here with us.
[00:00:21] Aaron: Yeah, we're keenly aware that we can't make this show happen without you guys being here.
And even a small show like ours takes a lot to put on. though we're all very familiar with the world of streaming royalties, We've come to learn that a lot of people don't realize that podcast streaming pays absolutely 0. And so with that, we want to enlist you guys, our listeners to help us with our show.
The easiest thing to do would be to follow or subscribe on your listening or watching platform of choice. It's a great way for you to. To let the algorithm know that we're worth 45 minutes of a new listener's time. The second thing to do would be to take your favorite episode, whether it's this one or one of the 60 other episodes we have and share that with somebody that doesn't know about our show.
And lastly, if you'd like to directly support our show, we have a Patreon. Most podcasts. Support themselves by selling ads, and We don't want to interrupt these conversations and hockey things that you might not need. So with that, we started a patrion community and over there, you can get things like behind the scenes footage that we sometimes cut out.
we announce our guests early so that you have an opportunity to ask them questions directly if you're interested in that, there's a link below in the show notes.
[00:01:31] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on for this podcast is that we aren't music journalists. So these aren't album based interviews talking about how each artist made the latest record or promoting current tours.
We are musicians ourselves and these conversations are about creativity in general and how we survive and thrive in a life that is building a career around our art.
[00:01:57] Aaron: And as we all know, That is an insane thing to try to do. Most of it is outside of our control. And so we like to keep our show focused on what is within our control.
that kind of ends up being our mindsets, our routines, our habits, our creativity in general. And we've boiled that down to the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And today there are three guests, the sisters known as Joseph.
[00:02:23] Michaela: Yeah. Joseph is a family band, three sisters originally from Portland, Oregon, and they have been a band for 12 years. They're coming up on their 10 year anniversary of their first album. And going to be going on a big tour in the fall. They have.
Put out three records on ATO, they've performed on The Tonight Show with Fallon, later with Jules Holland, Ellen, Conan, CBS This Morning, The Today Show, they've performed at every major festival, Coachella, Lollapalooza, Newport, Bonnaroo, Glastonbury, toured with James Bay, Amos Lee, The Shins, they, you know, on paper, have reached heights of success, and it's incredible.
But this conversation is so much more than that. And it feels really special that we were able to sit with them for this hour.
[00:03:09] Aaron: Yeah, those of you that are longtime fans of Joseph may have noticed that they just announced recently that one of the sisters has chosen to leave the band. And we are honored that they were open to sitting with us and chatting about not only the development of the band and the ups and downs that Michaela just mentioned but also how they handled that news how they came to that conclusion together and separately.
And How that has already affected their creativity past present future all of it. It is really an amazing look into The lives of creatives and different things we have to navigate. And we're just honored to be able to share this conversation with you guys. So without further ado, here's our conversation with Joseph.
[00:03:53] Michaela: So where are you guys today?
[00:03:55] Meegan: We're home in Oregon.
[00:03:57] Natalie: And I am in L. A. right now.
[00:03:59] Aaron: Nice. And you guys have lived in separate places for a while, correct?
[00:04:04] Natalie: Yeah, we have.
[00:04:06] Allie: Since the second that we moved out of our parents house, we all were living there right at the beginning just so that we could do it full time when we were making zero money. And the second that we were making enough money to move out, we've been in different places.
[00:04:20] Aaron: Oh, wow.
How does that? affect the creative process? Do you guys schedule time to write together or is it kind of like write separately and bring it together and carve out that way?
[00:04:30] Natalie: Yeah, it's both. Because writing happens when we're not together. But then our process as a band our best stuff comes from when we schedule, not only just with us, but with other co writers. That's our favorite way to make stuff happen. And that's usually just in a concentrated writing camp, seven day stretch.
And then for practicing, we are woefully bad at it. And so we usually don't schedule enough time. And then, the days before. Tour, we'll get together and maybe go through it once and then really the first show is The chopping block moment. So if you ever come to the first show on our tour, you know that may be scheduled for the next one.
Ha ha ha ha
[00:05:12] Michaela: I honestly love to hear that because I felt guilty for a long time. I just dread rehearsals. I'm like, I don't like to practice. But I recently heard Bonnie Raitt on um, Wiser Than Me podcast talk about how she doesn't like to practice. she's like, I'm not sitting around my house noodling away, playing through stuff.
She's like, Ionly practice when I have to get ready to go on tour. And all I like to do is perform live.
[00:05:35] Natalie: Oh, okay! Vindicated. That's incredible.
[00:05:39] Aaron: think it's more common than you would think, as a recovering. serial sideman. I've been in so many situations that are just like, okay, cool. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. You know, like I was filling in with this band. say it. They won't care. I subbed one show for JD McPherson and it was the only time they'd ever had a sub in the band.
And I flew out and met them in Denver and they're like, we'll have plenty of time. Like we'll load in early. We'll run through the set, like all of that. And what that meant is I flew in the night before and we spent the morning cross loading their stuff from their van into their bus that they were moving
[00:06:08] Natalie: Oh my god.
[00:06:09] Aaron: And then went to the venue and set up and played for 20 minutes for like a 90 plus minute set the day before the record came out.
[00:06:17] Meegan: Oh no.
[00:06:18] Aaron: it was great, promptly after the first song, JD was like, Hey, you might notice the drummer looks different. That's Aaron. I'm like, cool, great.
And now I'm really sweating.
[00:06:26] Natalie: out.
[00:06:27] Aaron: Uh, But it was totally fine. And we finished with the set and I looked over and Jason, their drummer at the time was back already and was standing side stage. And I was just like,
[00:06:35] Michaela: Oh God, I forgot about that part.
[00:06:37] Aaron: Oh yeah. Yeah. Luckily they're all like the sweetest people.
the good thing about it being such a long running band with no subs is I couldn't fuck it up that bad, you
[00:06:46] Natalie: yeah.
Yeah. Uh, all I just say is I think like the no rehearsing thing is more common than you would think.
[00:06:52] Meegan: Yeah.
[00:06:53] Natalie: I was in conversation with a friend of ours the other day who he plays in other people's projects as violin and,in his band, he was here for that band and he was like, Oh my gosh, we barely have any time to practice. It's really stressful. I was like, Oh, what do you have? And he was like, six days.
And I was like, Oh my God. And I was like, what do you do in your main band? And he was like, we practice for like two weeks straight, before tour. And I was like, you must sound incredible right out the gate. Like
[00:07:24] Aaron: Yeah.
I was blown away by that. I can also imagine. I feel bad. I mean, when the, when the chorus.
[00:07:29] Natalie: shoot.
[00:07:30] Michaela: Yeah. But I mean, like, when the core of the band, when you guys are all sisters. because you guys tour with just the three of you or Sometimes you have a full band, right?
It's the same as far as your approach
[00:07:42] Meegan: no, when we tour with a band we have practice.
[00:07:45] Natalie: Yeah, we build it in when it's the full polished thing and we've hired MDs for that in the past and that gets everything like tightened up, but when it's just the three of us, it'll literally be like, we show up and we're like we know it.
[00:08:00] Michaela: So you guys have been a band for 10 years and you have your big 12 years.
[00:08:05] Meegan: This is our ten year anniversary of our first album but
[00:08:08] Michaela: Oh
[00:08:08] Meegan: doing itsince 2012.
[00:08:10] Michaela: Wow. Cool. Okay. your guys story is so interesting because you had your like blow up moment, very early on. And I'm always so curious of what that ride is like, any pressure to redo it every time and beat it?
how has that evolved for you guys over the past
[00:08:30] Natalie: I love that. Surprisingly, no one really asks us that question.
[00:08:33] Michaela: Really?
[00:08:34] Natalie: Right, You guys? I feel like
[00:08:36] Michaela: we also like not to toot our own horn. I feel like every episode people are like, no one's ever asked me that. And I'm like, is it because is it literally because interviewers are usually not musicians. So it's just like, we're like asking the questions that we want to know for ourselves that we wonder about.
Other people's experience and we wonder for ourselves. I don't, we also don't read it in the press releases that publicists send us.
[00:09:00] Natalie: That's the whole thing then. That's why you ask great questions. I want to hear what you guys have to say about this, Meek and Al, but I have thought about it, over the years and been like, I don't think we knew what it meant when it happened, because we went straight from we had done this house show tour and we were working a lot.
we would send electronic press kits to venues in the Pacific Northwest try to get on things, but nothing's we were like, all right, we have to like build this ourselves. And then when our agent started working with us, he helped start booking things.
But then it felt like when. We had a song, number one on AAA radio. All of us were just like well, I guess that's just what happens. And then in the subsequent records, when that hasn't happened, we're like, Oh, we didn't know, what that really meant and kind of what that was.
So it's been interesting. To try and not hold yourself to that every single time and not feel like what you've done or what you're achieving is less. Because it doesn't do that and to be like actually we have an incredible audience that continues to just slowly build because people are really invested and not even just for one song but for like whole records and That is the thing that when I really settle into it and think about it.
It's like oh my god that's the success right there, I don't know what your guys's experience is
[00:10:22] Meegan: Yeah, we just didn't know, so I think especially the album after that, Good Luck Kid, itI think I was like, okay, great. And then this is going to happen. Then this is going to happen. And I think there were definite moments of disappointment of just Oh, did we do something wrong?
just really second guessing ourselves. And then having moments of just really having to come back to ourselves and be like, let's just make something we like. And then who knows what'll happen.
you're like well, this happened because supposed to. And because we're good and our music's good and all that. And then it doesn't happen again. Because cause who knows bad. Yeah. Cause like, who knows what, yeah, just completely personalizing the whole thing.
[00:10:56] Michaela: Well, Also personalizing it because I feel like I have never had that height of buzz and success that you guys had, but I've had little pockets of things where then when it didn't happen, the next album, I really was like, Oh, even down to individuals but you were so supportive last time and now you're like not even, do you hate me now?
Did I offend them? is the record so bad that they are just like, no you can make yourself crazy. But I think maybe the reason interviewers don't always ask that question is we kind of on the outside think success is only great. And what we see as success of being number one on AAA radio, playing all the late night TV, that can only be great.
How could anybody have anything but gratitude and happiness around that?
[00:11:43] Natalie: Oof.
[00:11:44] Michaela: and one of the reasons we like these conversations in this podcast is I feel like the older you get in this business, the more you create and put music out in a professional way, the more you learn how much nuance there is and just how it is not.
Black or white and how the things that we've, come up when we're first starting out, that we think is the goal might not be our goal. I made a note to bring up, we were on Kayamo together last year I hung out with your mom a lot because she had your your niece, and also I just have a.
The habit of befriending everyone's mothers but that's a demographic. I think Natalie, when I, saw you at your Nashville show, you were like, do you have my number? And I was like, no, but I have your mom's. She was talking to me about your guys trajectory and stuff, and she made a comment. She was like, their first record blew up, and it was so overwhelming and big. And then the second record, it wasn't the same, and that was challenging and difficult. And then they're starting in this third record, and there's excitement of things growing.
But that's also scary. And I didn't get to, like, dig into it with her, but I'm so curious what your guys is. Feelings and perspectives are on, what are the both sides if it goes really well and we, gain even more heights and success. What is scary about that?
[00:13:03] Natalie: I think one thing that's really, is so difficult, honestly, about the thing that we do is everything has metrics. Everything has numbers. Everything is a definable like, you sold this many tickets, you have this many streams, you have this many followers on social media. I think it can be really difficult to be so aware of that and we're making art But it's also we live in this world and it's a business and so you also have everyone partnering with you very aware of those numbers as well and one thing that we've never really gotten away from is a sense of Are we going to be able to sell enough tickets, and from our team like we've never hit that ease of we don't have anything to worry about, which maybe no one ever does, maybe if you're Lizzo or Casey Musgraves, you still are worried about something else, but it's such a mental thing that you have to shift because ultimately one person, one main character of an entire life story showed up to your thing.
it's astounding when you really think about the fact that like even one person moved their entire life around to be in the same room that night and just how sacred that is and trying to hold as much reverence as is possible without all those other things you know you sold 600 but not a thousand
[00:14:21] Michaela: And those numbers just keep getting bigger.
[00:14:23] Natalie: exactly exactly So
[00:14:26] Michaela: 1, 000, but not 2, 000.
[00:14:28] Natalie: rightexactly and then you're just like, 000 tickets it can be so easy to lose perspective and Not to mention the actual making and performing of the thing That is the whole reason why you're there which is to connect with yourself and each other And everyone and making sure that has all of your energy, it can get so in the weeds the idea of Moving your career forward and having success comes with all of this fear that you have to constantly Be creating a container to keep it out of your brain,
[00:15:00] Meegan: I think you, Natalie, carry that a lot. whereas, my first thing to that question is just maybe Ali would say the same as like with more success comes a lot more time away from home. And especially as we're older, that's a different sacrifice now.
when we were younger and we were likeliving at our parents house you know, maybe we had partners at the time, but we're all in our thirties and a way different. those years we were doing 280 days on the road to 65 and I'm like, I cannot do that now.
But would that kind of success require that? And what would you have to give up if you, did, you know, it's like a balance of, I just wonder like, Oh, could I even, or is there a way to have that success and not do what we did the one time we really did have it.
[00:15:50] Michaela: my question would be, who told us that success would require that?
[00:15:55] Allie: feel like for us it was like you have to keep the momentum going you just have to say yes to everything and like We got so burnt out after the white flag album that I'll speak for myself, but I was like, I need a break.
I'm going to die if I don't take a break. But then we took a very long break. the pandemic happened and we put out an album, the good luck kid album after that. It was three years between album cycles,
[00:16:21] Meegan: but we were touring our Asses off for two of those years and then we took a break and then made the album and people were like How come it was three years between your two albums?
[00:16:31] Allie: Yeah, you're like because we were on the
[00:16:33] Meegan: road and then we had to make another one
[00:16:36] Allie: and the pandemic happened so it was just so intense Then you sit back and wonder, you're like was it because we took the break that we needed that it the next album didn't have the momentum because everybody keeps saying that follow the momentum and maybe we stopped it too soon.
And then even though we were dying. Yeah, right. It's all complicated, but I do feel like is a lot of what like the industry
ever say no. Always say yes to everything.
Because you don't want to miss an opportunity. That could be like moment for you.
[00:17:03] Aaron: Yeah, which blows my mind. I understand that from like a, capitalistic sense in a produce, produce, produce, produce, produce thing. But like,I love Lucinda Williams and she rarely puts out records, there's big gaps. No, that's actually not
[00:17:17] Michaela: true.
[00:17:18] Aaron: Well,
The records I like the most that she has put out, there was a lot of space on either side. Like Speaking of the Northwest I love the shins James Mercer like rarely puts out records, and then like Fiona Apple
[00:17:29] Michaela: oh, yeah but I when I asked like who told us this I know exactly who told us this The business people told us this
[00:17:36] Natalie: A hundred percent
[00:17:36] Michaela: Yeah.
And I think, these conversations for us are like
[00:17:40] Natalie: how do you continue to create and be an artist? In a viable way that like you can still be in the community that you love and working and convince business people that you're valid so that you can have support, but also maintain your humanity and your soul when I'm continuously seeing just how completely at odds. What the music industry demands from artists and bands are with being healthy human beings and just like how so much of what we accept as the way to do things is pretty, in my personal opinion, toxic and like at odds with being a spiritually evolved, healthy person.
Ugh. Yeah.
[00:18:25] Michaela: I'm like there has to be another way I feel like wiser than me Julia Louis Dreyfus's Podcast should be a sponsor of this our tiny little baby podcast
[00:18:34] Natalie: love it.
[00:18:35] Michaela: But I listened to Patti Smith on that podcast and you know, Patti Smith famously left the music business and public life to raise a family and get married
[00:18:45] Natalie: mm and she talks about it how she just got trashed by the media That when she came back The only reason she says she came back is because her husband died and she needed to make money and she had young children She said that she got asked all the time like what have you been doing for the last 10 years?
[00:19:02] Michaela: You haven't done anything And she's like, What have I been doing? I've been writing every single day. I've been growing as a human being. I've been raising children and she's so adamantly like, fuck you guys. Like, she'sso that's, something to stay with me when I start to these thoughts in my own head of Oh, my God, too much time is passing by, you're going to just be starting back at the beginning.
[00:19:29] Natalie: when I really think about it and I try to. Get out of my head just the ways that it is supposed to be, what the lockstep workman thing to do is. And I really think about who is our audience and what is our relationship to them?
Everyone has their own lives they're living and they're not thinking like what's Joseph doing right now? but how do we stay connected to them? And how much of ourselves do we share? And how much of it is about the thing that we've made and that being the thing that provides value means something to people and how much of that is a communal connection, and ultimately, I've been thinking about this as we're moving toward what's next and thinking like, okay well,how do we make that be the like guiding light of all of the things that we do?
Like, To me, this is such an example of that, yes, I want to have a long form conversation with lovely people. Where if any of our audience wants to know in a deeper, more personal way, like this is an opportunity to be connected to them. But I think wanting to like decide what we say yes and no to basing on how do we stay connected?
and everyone has a different way, but social media it's hard that's like our main tool when it used to be like. publications and things your publicist would find. And now the personal thing on social media can be incredible.
And also so difficult and it's a, whole own thing, I want that to be the guiding light of what keeps our relationship with the people who care in a good place, and what's, youWe don't need to do that.
[00:20:56] Michaela: With that, do you guys want to move into sharing what's is next for you all?
[00:21:00] Natalie: Oh my gosh. Yes.
[00:21:02] Allie: is the first time talking about it outside of my friends or family or like the random person in town that knows way too much about my life
Those are good people to have in your life. The postmaster.You like run into someone in the store that you're like, I haven't seen you in months. And they like know this about me. I'm like, what? Like, Anyways, but yeah, I have decided to no longer carry on with my sister's family. And it's incredibly scary and exciting and horrifying and all of the feelings all at once.
The girls have been really, really supportive from the second that I told them. We all wept together for while. that's the decision at the moment. so our fall tour will be, my finale tour, but the girls have really exciting stuff on the horizon as well that I'm So fully in support of and I think it's just next level joseph as well So it just feels like a good thing and exciting but big change for all of us for sure
[00:22:03] Aaron: Yeah.
Yeah.Is this something that you came to a conclusion about in conversation with everybody or is it something that you've had in the back of your head and you kind of were just like, we need to talk
[00:22:14] Allie: It's something that I will say i've probably like thought about on and off Over the years, but never really like took it seriously. Cause I really love what we do and I love being with my sisters. And I'm definitely a bit more of a home body. And I, we get this question in like our meet and greets a lot, which is what would you be doing if you weren't doing music?
And, I've always was likeI'd probably hopefully own some land and like have animals and do something with herbs and whatnot. but I always felt bad That I said that instead of just well, I'd be doing music, but that's the truth of it.
And I think, it's been something that has popped in and out of my head, but never seriously. And then, there is a point where I think for me, I was like, maybe I can do music, but we can just restructure it a little bit in a way that I don't have to be on the road as much. And I feel like the more that I tried for that, it felt like it was going against the grain of what our band needed in order to make money.
And then I took six months, June to Christmas where I just, I didn't talk to anybody about it cause I am Someone that talks to everybody when I'm like trying to make a decision. And I was like, this is the biggest decision of my life in this moment. And I can't have anybody else's opinion on this because if I make the decision to stay or to leave, and I regret that in one way or the other, I don't want to have anybody to blame. for that. I want to be able to just know that no matter what, it was my decision.
And so that's what happened. And I was planning on telling the girls in February, but we're just all very close. So they started wondering maybe if something like that might happen. And so I ended up talking to them at Christmas, which yeah.
Has created an incredibly long runway of time between it actually happening and when the decision was made.
[00:24:05] Meegan: Natalie and I felt Allie stepped in back and we had a tour in the UK. October of 2023. And Natalie and I went to a bar.
Allie had turned in early. And. I think Natalie asked it. You were like, Megan, Ali quits, do you want to still be in a band with me? And I was like, let's do it. so that was the first moment. And we didn't tell Al that we talked about that. But then one day I was in her kitchen and I don't even know what we were talking about, but I just looked at Ali.
And I just said, Hey, I just want you to know that you can quit the band and. Natalie and I will be okay. Like we've already talked.
I think that was the scariest thing for me. Like, just feeling like I was going to like totally blow up their lives,
[00:24:49] Michaela: they mean the world to me and I think I got really afraid that like if I made that decision for myself that it would end up being so selfish yeah, that like both of them or one of them would just feel totally crippled by that that I was just taking so much away that like we've worked so hard for this, and we have a lot of success, even, Speaking earlier in the conversation, how we were like, yeah, like it hasn't been the same since white flag, but like, we have this weird thing where it's like all of these numbers that used to feel like, Oh, those numbers being so high is what's showing us that we have success, those numbers have been really low, but we're seeing more and more people come to our shows and more merch be sold than ever, which has been really interesting.
[00:25:30] Meegan: So I think even in the weird moment, it felt like we still have so much momentum and.I'm just gonna rip the rug out from everyone. But when I said that to you, and I was just like, it's okay if you want to quit. Cause Nat and I are gonna be okay. Allie didn't respond.
She just started crying. she was like, yeah, I don't want to talk about it right now. But she was like, thanks for saying that.
[00:25:55] Aaron: hmm. And in that moment I was like, yeah, she's quitting. Which I told Nat then later, I was like,
Mm I just wanted you to know that yeah, she's gonna quit. She hasn't said that in her words, but it's coming for sure.
[00:26:05] Michaela: Ali, you said you felt when you would share at a meet and greet that This whole other thing that you wanted to be doing that you felt bad not saying, I would still be doing music. through this process for yourself, has there grown more acceptance in you to have all of these other like loves and hobbies and sources of joy?
And has it been a relief to accept that and look forward to having more time for that?
[00:26:30] Allie: I will say yes. And it's all so complicated because life that I'm moving toward is a life that I've been thinking about and dreaming about for years and years. so there's like the freedom feeling. And then there's also the feeling of holy shit, I have.
Never done anything on my own in my adult life and I could fail miserably and not know how to make money and like, or do something embarrassing and like, and it'sall up to me now versus you know, if we do something together, then it's kind of on all of us if it does well or doesn't. But now I'm like, Oh my God, it's literally just me.
I have to. So yes, I think it's been like total freedom and excitement and Oh my God, I can't believe I like get to like fully move toward these different dreams. And then there's moments where I'm like, Oh my God.
[00:27:18] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:27:19] Allie: Soyeah, it's all the feelings, but yes, I think it's been really cool.
And I'm trying to, I think for me music has always been my creative outlet, but I feel creative in a lot of other ways. Because of being in a band, I haven't really ever had time to like,take classes or anything like that, and now I'm like,home long enough that I'm taking like,two ceramic classes, which is really exciting.
Different things like that, I'm like,just trying to find my creativity other ways,
[00:27:45] Aaron: I hear and can relate to all of that. It's a scary thing to grab the steering wheel and jerk it to the left. You know, I've I've never done anything comparable to that but having Been on the road for years and then have to actually tangibly say no and stop that momentum to spend more time at home and be in my studio and make records it was hard and I,I wasn't able to do that fully until the pandemic, you know, I started pulling back in like 2018 2019.
I pulled back more and the pandemic is like, you going to do this or not? Here you go. Good luck. it is a scary thing to all of a sudden just be like, I'm going to, guess pull the parachute is the analogy that I want to use. But like, that takes a lot of strength.
And I just want to say like one thing I've thought about post pandemic in everything shutting down, it messed up everybody's career trajectories and approaches and all that so much.
[00:28:34] Allie: But there's something to be said about All of the different hats that we have to wear as musicians and the different skills that we develop in running a band and running a business and juggling all of this and the adaptability You can only foresee so much and the rest is left up to chance And so you had to be agile and adaptable and like I just see in all of my friends in all of our community There's so many skills that we have just subliminally developed through all of that I know we only know each other a tiny bit but I would venture to guess that you have a lot of skills that are going to make this transition way more fruitful than you can even imagine right now, That's so nice. I am hoping for that for sure.
[00:29:10] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:29:11] Michaela: Well, And I think sometimes there's this survivalist idea as musicians that it's like a badge of honor to be like, you know, there was nothing else I knew how to do in life. So it was music or nothing. So, It can feel like, wait, am I not as legit if I have other interests?
Am I not as worthy of success if I have other things I'm good at or that I love as much? And again, it's just like, wait, who's telling us that
[00:29:42] Natalie: Wow.
[00:29:43] Michaela: we're creative human beings, all of us, not just artists. humans are creative by being human. That's fine if some people believe that for themselves, but
honoring that takes a lot of, courage as well.
[00:29:56] Natalie: Yeah.
[00:29:57] Michaela: Natalie and Megan, do you guys want to talk a little bit about how you processed this? And how do you balance that? Feelings of honoring each other's needs. As sisters and separate individuals with your own expectations, hopes, and dreams
career wise, but also the personal expectations and hopes and dreams of doing things together as three sisters.
[00:30:19] Natalie: As you were talking, what came to mind, I definitely want to hear what you have to say to this two weeks. It's really interesting in my personal life because I also just went through a divorce in 2022, it's been really interesting how this theme is sort of happening for me and also in a lot of my friendships.
I don't know if it's crossing the 35 year mark or what's going on, but basically with Al and all of us. A couple record cycles ago, we had a,so many things come up. It's wild when two people, let alone three, or, you know, decide like, let'sweave our worlds together and like, make sure all of the things in our personal lives can support doing this together.
So we've had multiple points throughout our career of like, Hey, are we in this? Do we want it? Let's make this about wanting to, and not about obligation. And I just really admire Al for like, knowing her truth and knowing how to stay aligned in that, basically. that's just a beautiful thing that I've, now seen her do.
And seen some other friends and myself try to do, which is basically like, okay, this commitment that I made or this way that my life was structured is actually constricting. And not allowing me to do what is aligned and what is singing and what is resonant.
And I think the three of us all felt that together. This is not alive and breathing. This is happening in a way that it has to, and sometimes commitment can be beautiful in that way where it's like something might take you away, but you get this lovely like, reliability of the thing.
And then sometimes it just squeezes. And I think when I was seeing that in my sister, And recognizing that not only for her life, if this squeezes her, then she doesn't get to soar and be everything that she can, but also like for the three of us, Joseph was not going to be. Alive hungry and real and vibrant if we were to keep moving within that commitment instead of within freedom.
it's interesting because there's grief 100 percent as you say goodbye to the thing that has been. And part of it is really just I can't believe that we've gotten to do this together it's unbelievable
[00:32:30] Aaron: Mhm. gotten all of these memories together time together, and I'm gonna miss her so much, there's that, just grief and there's the fear of moving into the unknown, because it's a totally different thing. with the three of us, I just know these harmonies are going to be fire. I just know it. I don't have to think about that at all. And Mings and I now are going, okay, what is the noise we make?
[00:32:55] Natalie: how is it different? it's going to have different strengths. It's not going to be the same. And so, On a technical side, I realized Megan Al being twins, the timbres of their voices have this incredible dynamic range of beautiful, bright belliness and warm, reedy, wooden soundsjust, like, all blends.
And Megan and I now are having to, on a technical side, go, okay, how do we, get our sound to feel as smooth and blended and, we had some counsel from people that didn't want us to overemphasize this moment because the idea of it being an ending was going to be shooting ourselves in the foot for the future, but that really hasn't felt like the right thing for us because I think our audience and I think human beings can hold the nuance that so much can happen at once.
You're not only sad, you're not only happy, it's all of it. that's life, we are grieving and we are excited and there's something to come and it's an ending and it's a beginning and I'm trying to just like welcome the whole range of experience that's coming with this.
So it's complex and layered and happening all at once.
[00:34:09] Aaron: that's so beautifully said. There are multitudes to everything. And I think, by smoothing the transition and not making a big deal, missing out on so much. I mean, No matter how much you talk or don't talk about it. It is a big change, what you guys have built and have done and have experienced should be honored.
As you said, like alive and breathing I think, we'd be amiss to not include fans and the audience in that and like their experience and the shows they were incredible and they've grown and they've been a thing in like. So, I think it's important to honor that and like, enjoy that celebrate that and then, you know, what is to come, I'm sure will also be amazing but it'll be amazing in different ways it'd be a crime to try to compare the two.
[00:34:50] Natalie: Yes.
[00:34:51] Michaela: I think also as a, fan of your guys music your songs are so vulnerable and revealing and you guys share so much of yourself through your music that it would be all off for you guys to not address it, if, Ally just started not being in pictures and be like, wait, what's happening?
Like,
[00:35:11] Meegan: It's really strange advice, but. I'm like, I understand it on one side, but then I'm like, it's just not us.
[00:35:18] Aaron: Yeah.
but I would venture to guess that advice is coming from fear on their end, don't rock the boat too much. fear of what's to come and it's like. yeah, of course there's fear, but excitement can feel like fear sometimes.
And, it's just fear of the unknown, which is just total human nature. I mean, Ali, you were saying you have fear of what's to come too, cause who knows what it will be, but like, There's a lot of good there too.
[00:35:38] Meegan: I also think from my perspective, I understand it because it's business, right? the thought is like, yeah, let's not show our cards too much so that, people don't think, they got to go. But I'm like,if we lose people over this, then we lose people over this.
They liked what was, that makes sense. They're not coming with us to the next thing. But it's so much more important, relationally, and just who we are between the three of us and who we are with our audience to bring everybody in. let's all go down together if we're gonna go down, you know, it's like let'sdo it.
I don't want to surprise anybody and I don't want to lose out on celebrating what the last 12 years was with Al and, just be like, just kidding, she's not here. I don't know, like, it's not
the
[00:36:28] Natalie: And ultimately, like, we've hired people to give us that kind of advice, like that is their job to be like, Hey, this is from this perspective. And ultimately, if you want to grow your thing, people who don't really care are just going to hear that and they're going to whatever. But I want us to be in relationship with the people who care and who are in and honor that relationship and be like, listen, we got to celebrate it.
This moment because I want people to have their own feelings about it again Not like everyone's going around thinking about what's Joseph doing today, but those people who have Those people who have invested and who care and who are gonna really miss Ali like us I want to be able to have that collective experience
[00:37:09] Meegan: Yeah, and also, to me, I think it's super interesting. I do too. I'm like, oh, wait, are they going to do next? you look at the Staves, and I'm not really sure how they did that, but one of their members had a baby, I believe, and so now it's just two of them. And I really love their music, but I haven't checked out their stuff in a while, and when I, Oh, it's just two of them.
I'm like, Oh, cool. Like, what does it sound like? What are they doing? How are they doing this? And all that stuff. So I think it's interesting.
[00:37:36] Aaron: I mean, All you gotta do is bring up Fleetwood Mac. Everybody loves to talk about all the interpersonal things in Fleetwood Mac. You know what I mean?
Like, uh,
[00:37:52] Allie: It was really interesting to be on the outside. Like I wasn't in any of the writing sessions, obviously, with them. And so it was weird to be home and then be getting the voice memos from the, writing sessions and be like, Oh my God, we just made this amazing song.
And, and it was cool to get to listen to it without being in the session. And they've just written really incredible stuff that I just like as a person. And also as a Joseph member. It's really good and it feels very consistent but new to like what we have been and what they are going to be.
So it doesn't feel like it's this large departure, but it also feels like fresh and new. And I feel like our fans are going to be like obsessed anyways, cause it's just so good.
[00:38:33] Aaron: was that like a new experience for you to be able to listen to these Joseph? I don't know why I'm doing air quotes. They are Joseph songs.
[00:38:40] Natalie: Joseph.
[00:38:42] Meegan: Yes.
[00:38:43] Aaron: Yeah, but to be able to listen to these Joseph songs and not have that attachment of what's my part in this? where do I sit? What's this going to be like on stage?
[00:38:50] Allie: yeah, it's been interesting to see like which things in the process, make me emotional and which things don't like which things I'm like, oh, that's so cool They get to be like an outsider to that and then other ones where i'm like, okay, that hurts a little bit You know or whatever but that one was like honestly really fun because writing sessions are really hard and intense then all of a sudden they're fun so I wasn't like missing out on the like hard part of it so felt really fun to just hear the outcome of all of that and hear their new sound without being a part of the moment.
But yeah. That was interesting.
[00:39:20] Aaron: It sounds like you get to be the grandparent to the song. You get to show up and like hang out and have all the fun. When things get tough, you're like, I gotta go! See ya!
[00:39:28] Natalie: Grandpa Al.
[00:39:29] Allie: Grandpa Al. Yeah, exactly.
[00:39:33] Michaela: one of the really beautiful things I'm hearing from you guys is really just recognizing like, Yeah, we're sad about this or yeah, I'm gonna have moments where I feel left out and like Recognizing it and not being like, it's all either one or the other, it's really recognizing that life and every experience holds so much nuance.
when. feelings of conflict or resentment or anger ever come up to be able to recognize them, and not let them destroy moments and how you guys, especially ifsisters have grown to work through that as also bandmates have there ever been any moments of that kind of stuff?
[00:40:12] Natalie: Yes. with anything, any kind of working or familial relationship, you get enough years under your time together. And there are stories of repeat, dynamics or roles or lettings down, and I literally the other day Had a thing where I fell into a story that was old and I just let myself get frustrated and Megan was like You needed to communicate that sooner and you needed to say you were feeling frustrated about that And I just think we have with the exception of that recent we have gotten so much better. We tend to be, as people, we're not very explosive, or like, in the moment, have a wider berth with things, and I think, all three of us at different points can stew, it can get whatever, then we have to bring it to the surface, and we've gotten a lot better at that, but it doesn't always happen. Just trying to be like more on the forefront of that and saying like, Oh, I'm starting to feel this thing that can come up sometimes versus I'm going to fall on this sword and I'm going to be this person again. And,let it fester, we have gotten a lot better at that over the years.
[00:41:16] Meegan: We've worked so hard at it. in the conversation Natalie's referencing too, like.I was saying that, and I did think that was true, but then I was like, Maybe I'm freaking gaslighting her, and being like, Your experience isn't real, you know, and we're like, You're wrong, and then I'm like, Ew, I don't wanna gaslight her.
so I'm like, Okay, so I call her, and I'm like, Yeah, everything you're saying makes so much sense, and if you did say that, I'm so sorry,
[00:41:41] Natalie: You
[00:41:42] Meegan: definitely am not meaning to gaslight you. So it's like, there's much conflict work all the time to just stay on top of stuff, because it's so easy for stuff to happen and for things to get emotional and
[00:41:55] Aaron: I'm amazed throughout this conversation on How well it seems like you guys see each other as individuals and not just see that but like also honor that
you know, I find is really hard to do in a band let alone a band of siblings You know where you guys have history
[00:42:10] Michaela: to do in a marriage,
you know
[00:42:12] Aaron: Yeah, for sure, you know, like, you know, we've been talking about like the history that you guys have over the last 12 years you guys are all well older than 12.
So your history extends way beyond 12 years to be able to this and have honest, real conversations like this and call each other out not hold resentment from that time that like Megan didn't give up the swing fast enough for Allie when you guys were like six like, is amazing.
[00:42:34] Meegan: It was more like, one of us took the larger half of the sandwich, or the end of the pickle, or
[00:42:42] Natalie: we had to do really intentional work at the beginning because of our family dynamic. I'm four years older. And they're twins and there's just so many different things with all of that I have had been doing it a lot longer and I very music, sorry also being a person honestly
[00:43:01] Meegan: That's true.
[00:43:02] Natalie: but like we had to do a lot of very intentional listen How do we switch this up so it's not Natalie is the leader and in charge of everything and you're the little sisters one of those things was just switching the order of how we stand that was one way in the beginning at first I was playing in the middle and I was flanked by Arguably identical twins, you know and that really Communicates one thing oh natalie and her backup and then also It would have been hilarious if that had been that way because it would have been missing out on just the unbelievable star power of each of you So we switched and have megan in the middle and then ali and I on the sides and also that prevents anyone from getting hit In the face with the guitar, which is
[00:43:43] Aaron: Oh, yeah safety yeah,
yeah
[00:43:46] Natalie: first But yeah, like a lot of conversations had to be intentional to like overcome those lifelong stories
[00:43:53] Aaron: Yeah, was the Conscious choice to reframe like, oh natalie is the leader because she's the oldest was that? coming from you, Natalie, of like, I don't want to be in a leadership role? Or was that coming from you guys, Allie and Megan, of like, hey, you're not the leader.
This is a trio. Which direction did that come from? Or was it kind of both?
[00:44:11] Meegan: it all started by Natalie texting us and being like, Do you want to be in a band with me? And we really did think, Oh yeah, backup singers to our older sister? Yes, of course. it started like that, but Natalie really was the first person to create room for us to come up and be like, I don't want this to just be my band, I want this to be all of us.
Which was amazing, and so she created that space and culture. Natalie had been doing it for longer, but Natalie's also much more, expressive and very good entertainer and on stage and stuff. Ittook Allie and I a lot longer to become comfortable on stage.
I think because we were way more reserved and because, Natalie's just looks so like, cool with her hair and she's the one with the guitar and she's doing all this stuff that everyone's like, well obviously she's the lead. we would get overlooked a lot early on like, in interviews, people wouldn't really ask us questions, I mean, in general and in business people would just go to Natalie and be like well, Natalie, you know, and then we're like what are we doing here, exactly, if people aren't seeing this as like, an equal thing. And so, yeah, it was both.
[00:45:20] Natalie: in every conversation, I always am like, I have something to say, and I have to be conscious. Actually, Al and I did, both of us can be that person. We actually had conversations in the beginning of like, okay, when a question is asked, let's just be silent. And then Megan was like, I don't want you to do that There's a lot of conversation around it all the time.
[00:45:40] Meegan: I'm not the first one to speak, usually. Yeah. Yeah. But we would have so many interviews where like, I didn't say anything and I was like, wow, that was weird. Yeah. Like in one way I want you to make space for me, but also just you don't just wait for me to talk.
[00:45:56] Aaron: Yeah. We'requasi navigating that a little bit. Yeah. first thing that we've done that we're like, yeah, Co equals,
[00:46:04] Michaela: this being the podcast. Being the podcast.
[00:46:06] Meegan: and I think it is what are our innate personality types? And then how to honor that. how can we kind of encourage each other and make space Like, I always notice Especially traditional male female roles in relationships, when we go to a restaurant, I'm always the one who like, walks in first and goes to get the reservation, and like, I'm the one who orders for us, and sometimes I'm like, Oh, It's just my personality like, I'm a younger sister, but my brother was very quiet, and I grew up being, like, I'm the one that talked to strangers for us probably very similar to Natalie of just like,we listen to these podcasts sometimes and I'm like, Oh my God, Michaela, stop talking because I'm also just so excited.
[00:46:46] Aaron: I wouldn't be able to make this without her. The podcast I would make would be about 15 minutes long and be like, cool.
[00:46:53] Michaela: All right. See you guys.
[00:46:54] Meegan: was it.
[00:46:59] Michaela: always a question or a story on the tip of my tongue and I'm like, Oh, okay.
I'm gonna wait a second.
[00:47:03] Natalie: right. Totally. Yeah, it takes intentionality, and I think not hating yourself for your natural instincts. I've had to work on that a lot, too. different voices from my past being like, you're taking up too much space, you're too just being like, you know what?
I want to be in front of a microphone. I need to not be cruel to myself about that. not everyone does and everyone has to play a role. but like within then also going, and how do I not totally dominate all the time? it's very meta that I'm talking as I speak about this.
So,
[00:47:37] Michaela: but it sounds like you guys have done so much work in that and that obviously again is like what you guys share. I think I read some, maybe it was your bio on your last record that all of your therapists played a large role
[00:47:49] Allie: For
[00:47:50] Michaela: your record. I know also that therapy talk and all this stuff can feel like very pop culture today, but I'm like.
Thank God we're all trying to like, learn about ourselves because there really is a thing to like the way humans react emotionally and are wired and all this stuff. I don't know, I'm always a little careful on this podcast to be like, none of us are therapists, we're all artists who are like, seeking
[00:48:17] Natalie: hmm. and then trying to be better versions of ourselves to each other that sounds like you guys are really on that same path
[00:48:24] Michaela: Constantly. Yeah Yeah,is there any last? Partying, thing that you guys want to share especially with your fans about this next chapter that's coming up
[00:48:35] Meegan: Natalie and I are releasing some music that I feel really proud of. first song, it might be out when this comes out, probably. It's called Starting Over at the End. We should send it to you guys if we haven't already,
[00:48:47] Natalie: Yeah, we will.
[00:48:47] Aaron: oh, I'd love to hear it. Yeah
[00:48:49] Meegan: it to you.
[00:48:49] Aaron: I've only listened to it once because I can't handle it.
[00:48:53] Allie: It makes me cry.
[00:48:55] Aaron: understood.the one that you were saying is coming out kind of in Yeah, we're gonna release it at the same time that we make this announcement.
[00:49:03] Allie: And they're gonna be singing that one in the fall tour as well. Yeah, so Allie will actually go off stage at some point. I'm probably just gonna pull up a chair and sit right next
[00:49:13] Aaron: I love that.
[00:49:14] Meegan: Make you feel weird?
[00:49:15] Natalie: Tears.
[00:49:16] Meegan: Tears.
[00:49:17] Aaron: Oh,
[00:49:18] Meegan: But yeah, I think like, the title and just the whole subject of the song is all about the exact moment. And just, Natalie came up with that perfect line. We're like, how do you say, end is the beginning? In a way that no one has said it before.
Well, Maybe someone has said it in that way before,
Only you. Original
[00:49:37] Natalie: You know what? You're right. I'm such a genius.
[00:49:40] Meegan: always starting over at the end. Yeah.
[00:49:44] Aaron: II. Absolutely love that and I love that is going to be part of this last tour that you guys are doing together. I love that Ali's going to step off stage and it's just like a dip your toe into what that would feel like together like the three of you are going to experience that together in the same place and like be able to debrief after talk about going to the first show of the tour I want to be a fly on the wall for the conversation.
Yeah, are
[00:50:04] Michaela: you guys
[00:50:05] Aaron: playing Nashville on that tour?
[00:50:06] Natalie: Yeah. Please come. We'd love to have you on
[00:50:08] Aaron: in the cannery ballroom. Mm hmm. Ballroom? Is thatit's called something new now but it it's always going to be the cannery ballroom. All I know is that there's three of them. They're slightly renamed and they cleaned up the green rooms in the bathrooms.
So, Sounds
[00:50:21] Natalie: That downstairs is really cool.
[00:50:24] Aaron: Yeah, I think they finally like realized that having like a J shaped
[00:50:27] Meegan: was a bad
[00:50:28] Aaron: Yeah, I think they like straightened it out as
[00:50:30] Meegan: I hate when you, when like, there, it's for music, but someone not musical designed it, Where you're just like, this doesn't
[00:50:39] Michaela: We'll definitely look up the date and put it on account. It's also Becca is opening, right?
[00:50:44] Natalie: Becca. I saw Becca was on this podcast and I was listening to the clips and I'm like, they are so wise.
[00:50:49] Michaela: I want to have Becca back on because
[00:50:52] Aaron: it's one of my favorite Michaela clips of the whole, they were like talking
[00:50:55] Michaela: about their new record that was coming out and how like free they felt of, pressure and everything because they produced it all and, just not attached to uh, results.
And I was like, I'm gonna talk to you in a year.
[00:51:09] Natalie: Yes.
[00:51:11] Michaela: I I don't mean to be an asshole. I'm not saying it's going to be hard for you. I'm just super curious because I felt that way about my last record. And then I had all sorts of feelings about what happened from it. it is like a daily battle to stay in your space. and so I want to have Becca back on.
Yeah, I feel like our brains are constantly looking for the cause and effect Not saying that Becca feels, I don't know how Becca feels about how it went. it seemed like a smash success to me, and it was a stunning piece of work, when something isn't what you imagine, not for literally any reason at all, like you were saying earlier, I think back of all the things I thought of just what is it?
[00:51:51] Natalie: What do we need to do different? And why? There's always something that you can go well, I could have done this or I should, la la la la,
[00:51:57] Aaron: Yep. There's a thousand different directions you can take at any time. writing the song, you can write it a thousand different ways. You can record it 8, 000 different ways. You know, You could release it this way, you could tour it this way, you could run your band this way or whatever.
And
[00:52:10] Natalie: Mm hmm.
[00:52:10] Aaron: you just got to plant a flag and it gets to a point where it's not necessarily better or worse. It's just different.
[00:52:16] Natalie: Yes.
[00:52:17] Michaela: And I've been trying to differentiate for myself, this idea of still letting myself dream and that dreams are great.
Expectations are not as great.
[00:52:28] Natalie: That's so good.Yeah, because you don't want to lose, ambition and effort and hoping.
[00:52:34] Michaela: But you don't want to be so upset if it doesn't look the way you expected it to look Or feel the way you expected to feel
[00:52:41] Natalie: Yeah,
[00:52:42] Michaela: man
[00:52:42] Aaron: beautiful kind of tie into this whole thing Who knows what it's gonna look like but enjoy the ride and let it be what it is
[00:52:49] Meegan: Yeah, exactly.
[00:52:50] Michaela: Yeah, your whole journey is sister band.
I think I can speak for you in this part and just say that like we're incredibly honored that you guys to come on here and be vulnerable and share this big decision in y'all's lives and in the band and all of that. So it means a lot that you guys took the time to be here with us for that.
Yeah. And that you trusted us to have this conversation with you.
[00:53:11] Allie: Thanks for doing it with us. And it means a lot just to like have a space just to talk about it and yeah, I think the tour itself is gonna be terrifying to be honest with that lesson. So also like two allfans listening to this Hold us dearly, please. There
[00:53:26] Meegan: will be
[00:53:27] Allie: tears.
[00:53:27] Natalie: tender.
[00:53:28] Allie: I need to do like therapy sessions being like, how do you not cry when you're emotional? Nice. Backwards therapy.
[00:53:37] Natalie: Stifle the emotion, just push it down.
[00:53:40] Aaron: it,
[00:53:40] Allie: stuff it down. Thank you guys for doing this with us and just talking with
[00:53:46] Natalie: yeah, felt very held and safe in this space to be real, so thank you so much.
[00:53:51] Aaron: Thank you guys.
All right guys Take care. See ya
[00:53:54] Meegan: Bye.