The Other 22 Hours

Kevn Kinney (Drivin N Cryin) on self healing rock and roll, unlearning, and mixtapes.

Episode Summary

Kevn Kinney is best known as the songwriter and singer of the Georgia rock band Drivin N Cryin, who has released 20+ records over the last almost 40 years, some independent and some on major labels, and toured with the likes of Neil Young and The Black Crowes, but Kevn also has numerous solo and side projects, with members of REM, Drive By Truckers, Warren Haynes, John Popper and more. We talk to Kevn about what he calls 'self healing rock and roll', showing up just as you are, unlearning what you've learned so you can be yourself, getting out of writers block by writing about writing, the changing landscape of how you hear music, and a whole lot more.

Episode Notes

Kevn Kinney is best known as the songwriter and singer of the Georgia rock band Drivin N Cryin, who has released 20+ records over the last almost 40 years, some independent and some on major labels, and toured with the likes of Neil Young and The Black Crowes, but Kevn also has numerous solo and side projects, with members of REM, Drive By Truckers, Warren Haynes, John Popper and more. We talk to Kevn about what he calls 'self healing rock and roll', showing up just as you are, unlearning what you've learned so you can be yourself, getting out of writers block by writing about writing, the changing landscape of how you hear music, and a whole lot more.

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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Episode Transcription

Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and we are coming to almost the end of our second year. So thankful to still be here and really grateful that you guys are here with us.

[00:00:22] Aaron: If you guys are returning listeners, we have a few quick asks for you before we jump into today's conversation.

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And the more listeners we have, the more guests we have, and the more ideas we can share. And then lastly, if you know that this show really resonates with you, we'd love for you to check out our Patreon way to support us directly in producing this show, which takes a lot of resources, even for a small show like ours. So we offer all the normal Patreon things and an ever evolving list of things. To foster this community and go deeper into what we talk about here on the show.

So if that intrigues you, there's a link below in the show notes.

[00:01:22] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on with this podcast is that we are not music journalists. We are musicians ourselves. So we feel like that makes for a different conversation one that is more akin to like we're a bunch of friends just sitting around the table sharing what the honest realities are of building a lifelong career around your art.

[00:01:41] Aaron: Which is an increasingly crazy thing to do. that's because most of the things in this business are outside of our control. And so with that, we like to focus on what is within our control. our mindsets, our routines, our headspace, our creativity in general. And so we've been able to distill that down to the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so you can sustain your creativity?

Today, we got to ask that question of Kevin Kinney.

[00:02:05] Michaela: Kevin Kinney is the lead singer and guitarist of Drivin and Cryin as well as his own solo projects, but he is Drivin and Cryin and has been active in the music business and performing and putting out records for over 40 years. I think he said his first record came out in 81.

[00:02:23] Aaron: Yeah, and he started in like, 78, so it's been almost five decades now.

[00:02:27] Michaela: Yeah, so he has seen a lot. He's been known as a prolific writer with tons of recordings coming out. He's recorded with members of REM, Warren Haynes, John Popper, members of Drive By Truckers and we've known of Kevin for a long time, but One of our guests, Edwin McCain, talked about his experience and the really positive influence that Kevin has had on him.

And when we shared that clip by popular demand, it was clear that people wanted to hear from Kevin Kinney.

[00:02:56] Aaron: Yeah, and you can feel it just in our conversation with him. He talks a lot about his mentors, but then also the people that are younger than him that he enjoys being around. Aaron Lee has been a former guest on the show, episode one, actually comes up a lot in this conversation and that's just, being here in Nashville and the community here, it's very obvious that

there are so many people that have come up underneath. I He names Patterson Hood from Drive By Truckers, Jason Isbell. And all that kind of works its way to the end of the conversation when he says, I'm local and organic and grass fed.

And what he's saying there is work in your circle of influence and build a community and show up as yourself and do your thing. And everything will fall in line from there or it won't, but just do it and keep doing it. Keep punching your time card and keep showing up. And it's like a really grounding.

blue collar way of looking at what we do here.

[00:03:42] Michaela: Yeah. So without further ado, here is our conversation with Kevin Kinney of Driving and Crying.

I would have to say we were talking right before we got on. without thought, you're like one of our first guests on here by popular demand.

[00:03:53] Aaron: We had a conversation with Edwin McCain and he brought your name up

[00:03:57] Kevn: I saw it. clip of it and everybody was like, we love Kevin, have Kevin on there. We want to hear Kevin. So, by popular demand, thank you for being here with us.

Wow, I'm very honored.

[00:04:06] Michaela: I'm pretty sure I reiterated what the whole point of this podcast is on when I texted you, but just to reiterate it again, talking about.

Basically like the human part of being lifelong career artists

[00:04:18] Kevn: the other 22 hours.

[00:04:20] Michaela: not how do you record and, but like, how do you be a human and sustain yourself?

[00:04:25] Kevn: the Allman Brothers, it's the other 20 hours.

[00:04:27] Aaron: Exactly.

[00:04:29] Michaela: So where, where are you today? You're at home.

[00:04:31] Kevn: I'm at home. I live about a mile outside of Decatur, Georgia.

[00:04:35] Aaron: Okay. In a little industrial area called Scotdale, Georgia.

[00:04:38] Michaela: Okay. Okay.

[00:04:39] Kevn: And it's where all the textile mills used to be. So it's I live in this weird little textile mill neighborhood.

[00:04:45] Aaron: I grew up in Maine, and so that's rampant, former mill towns are everywhere in Maine, you know, but it's

more like paper industry, stuff like that,

so

I'm used to that setting.

[00:04:53] Kevn: Yeah. I have a song called this train does not stop at the millworks anymore. And I wrote it a long before I lived on the train tracks in the millworks, but now I

do. So it kind of came true. that was a lot more accurate than I had imagined it to be.

There you

go. Life imitating art imitating life. Yeah.

[00:05:09] Michaela: Have you lived in your current spot for a long time?

[00:05:12] Kevn: no, just a year.

[00:05:13] Michaela: Oh. Oh, cool. Okay.

[00:05:14] Kevn: I lived in Atlanta till 92 and then I moved to Athens till 2001, I guess, and

then I lived in Brooklyn Till about six years ago, I guess, seven years ago.

And then I got remarried five years ago and I'm here in Decatur. Now I was in Atlanta, over Atlanta mainly in the Virginia Highlands area, if you know what that is.

now I'm not here in the millworks.

[00:05:35] Aaron: we spent a long time in Brooklyn as well. We were there for 10 years. Yeah. 1011

[00:05:39] Kevn: Oh, yo, you were,

I was in Greenpoint.

[00:05:40] Aaron: Oh, nice. I love it up there. We have a lot of friends there.

We spend most of our time in Ditmas Park. Down near Prospect Park,

[00:05:46] Kevn: Oh, okay.

[00:05:47] Aaron: I spend most of my time in Detroit.

All corners of Prospect Park, the north side of the park, the south side, all around there.

[00:05:52] Kevn: Yeah. My friend Brian Ritchie from the Violet Femmes used to live over there. That's the first time I ever went there. Very

[00:05:57] Michaela: met in jazz school we were both

jazz school kids

in Manhattan and then started dating and moved in together right out of graduation, much to my mother's

dismay.

And yeah, we're

[00:06:08] Aaron: still recovering.

[00:06:09] Kevn: Is that what it was called? Jazz school.

[00:06:11] Aaron: It was literally called the new school for jazz and contemporary music. the new school, which like is a much larger university and all that. But we went to like the jazz school, which was. floors in a building. Like 200 kids slammed into two

floors and that's all they gave us.

[00:06:24] Kevn: my sound man went to Berkeley.

[00:06:26] Aaron: Okay.

[00:06:26] Kevn: can tell.

[00:06:27] Michaela: it's a thing, like

[00:06:28] Kevn: very unimpressed.

He's not impressed by everything.

[00:06:31] Michaela: that's why we say we're recovering and most of our friends that we met at school are also still recovering.

[00:06:37] Kevn: Yeah. I

[00:06:38] Michaela: anyways, I'm curious how has like the different locations and especially now being where you're at, I know you're someone who has consistently been on the road for the majority of your.

career path, but has where you live and spend your time when you're home has that kind of informed or Changed your creative process depending on where you're at in life

[00:06:58] Kevn: I don't know. Not really. I'm constantly running away from myself. and I keep winding up waking up next to myself. I

can't really do it. but creatively, what usually happens is, I'm a collector basically. I just collect ideas as I move and to remember conversations and now with these new things on the phone where I can record an idea, or I can write it down in the notebook.

That's very helpful to me. Cause I have a lot of, Sweeping ongoing kind of like ideas that come and go. I mean what affords me here living here is I have a nice backyard and I got four dogs, so I walked them the stress of walking them and making sure that they're safe and they don't get hit by cars and clears your mind.

So I try to do it first thing every day to just clear my mind to get out of the house. screen, Try to just be aware, you know, I'm always trying to write constantly sometimes it's just terrible when sometimes it's fun.

but I try to remember I've written a bunch of songs. Lately about my dog, So we'll see how that translates into America, because usually when I write I try to keep everything very general. Like I don't use specifics. Like I rarely use a politician's name or a circumstances name, Vietnam War.

Maybe I will, I've used that, but I mean, I try to keep everything a little enigmatic and fluid, Like I write about my hometown a lot when I'm living down in Georgia. growing up in the Midwest I was thinking today like, I wish I had better posture and I wish I had a better idea of image or, Being a pro or but I was never meant to be a musician that was supposed to be on stage I was supposed to be a factory worker that cut a finger off and got unemployment and was

never supposed to be here.

you know what I mean? So I'm kind of like always in a world of I'm not sure if I'm he or he's you know What I mean, it's a little psychotic out there doing this since My first single came out in 1981 So it's been like 43 years. I've been chasing this thing and wondering where I belong or who, who I belong to, or,

what's the point?

I don't even know, but I mean, I get validated. Like you said, I saw Edwin on your show and I was like, Oh that's so sweet to him. And he's a really great, one of the humanitarian and great friend of mine. it doesn't really matter where I am I would never write about the beach at the beach.

I would probably write about the beach in New York,

I try to soften the edges, I don't like to be real literal John got up and John did this and John did that and then he went over here and then that's what happened.

I'm trying

to like well, the colors of the leaves are, I'll give us some clues as to what season it is and what his temperament is and maybe what his vibe is.

like that song this train don't stop at the millworks anymore. It's really just about a woman who's working in a parachute factory and I, in world war two. And. when the war ends, you know, she's still working at the factory, but then they decide to get cheaper labor, my sister's dealing with that right now. Like she's working at a company they're exporting the jobs to Mexico. And

she sees how much they're paying these people and they're paying them like 10 a day. And it's just like, Oh my

God.

It's just terrible.

I can't say that, but I say it in the midst of a woman who, whose identity was all wrapped up in the, having this really cool job where she made parachutes and she would go to the movies and she would like, see the previews of the newsreel war films, and she'd be like, that's the parachute I made that parachute.

And she felt

connected to this, to this thing. So,

[00:10:04] Michaela: you,

you went to a place that I'm curious about you mentioned the identity stuff after 40 years of doing this, you questioning, like, what you should look like if you're someone that's on stage

that's performing and do I fit that role and what am I doing and I'm so curious about that stuff, especially as many years into it as you are, because I I always wonder if some people just have like a self assuredness, some of us are just plagued for life to always feel like misfits.

[00:10:35] Kevn: We just got off tour with the Black Crows. We did a tour with them and we grew up with them in our early punk days. They were, we all lived in the same apartment building we all supported each other. But Chris Robinson is a rock star. He is a full on rock star. He is great at it.

He can talk to the audien Ed Rowland, rockstar, great rockstar, Michael Stipe, Bono, they get out there and they just embrace that crowd, they can talk to the crowd, and they're like lead singers, Edwin is good at it too. Just really great at connecting with an audience.

rarely do I feel that way, I just really want to practice with my band and then you can watch it. It's basically what you're doing with Driving Cry, it's like, you're coming to watch us rehearse for the show that we're never going to do. So, And the only guarantee I guarantee my audience at some point in the night you will be disappointed in this performance. There'll be a song you don't like, there'll be a song that you like that I didn't play the right way, or I played it too fast, added a story, but it wasn't the story you were expecting. Or so I will guarantee you that I will disappoint you in some way, shape or form somewhere in the night.

And hopefully I will make up for it somewhere. also in between there,

[00:11:37] Aaron: I hear that and I hear self assuredness in that you're like, we're just going to show up as we are fully this is what we are, you know, versus,

Things I hear from people that, maybe can only measure their, career in one decade versus four, you know, where it's like,

how do I.

Manipulate what I'm doing so that it fits that you're just like, here we are. Take it or leave it.

[00:11:55] Kevn: when I am that guy, the other people don't like it. They don't want to see me go like, Hey Atlanta, how y'all doing? Let's rock and roll tonight.

[00:12:02] Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

[00:12:02] Kevn: Yeah. I'm not that guy.

And then when I say it, they're like, that was weird. Why did he do that?

[00:12:08] Aaron: who You know what I mean?

[00:12:10] Kevn: They're like,

okay,

[00:12:11] Aaron: Has that evolved? Has that approach for you, has it always been that, or has that evolved as you've been at this for longer?

[00:12:17] Kevn: it is always kind of been there. I, you know, I started off, my first Band called the prosecutors. My best friend, Doug Lavalier,

 

[00:12:24] Kevn: a roadie. We were both roadies for this band called The Haskell's and the Oil Tasters in Milwaukee, 19 78, 79. we just started our own little band on the side for fun. So that's where it all started. I'm still like a guitar tech.

When I was out with the black crows, I still take pictures of all of their gear. And I was sitting with the roadies and just thinking like, here I am. I'm like a roadie, but I got like a plus sign on it.

Go roadie plus, I get to be, I get all the amenities have a song that I sing when I do folk shows. It's like, I just come here to sing to myself. And that's kind of what I started doing when I started this band, which drive a crying like, Edwin.

I think the one thing that we have is this Self help self healing, rock and roll, like we always took rock and roll there's not a lot of like, let's get down and party and drink and Jack Daniels and all that. There's mostly, it's mostly introspective, self help healing things, like Scarred But Smarter was our very first song, right there it tells you nobody said this would be fair, they warned you before you went out there, there's always a chance to get restarted to a new world and a new life, Scarred But Smarter. And that's the first song that I wrote for this band. It's I sing it every night I'm trying to help myself, I'm trying to heal myself, which is what I try to tell people about music in general. Whether anybody sees you play it or not, you and your husband, you and your wife, you and your dog or nobody.

Just music is a very healing thing, you know, as you know, it just feels so good to express yourself and let it out and then let it move. I didn't let the fact that I didn't wanna be on stage inhibit the fact that I wanted to sing to myself. So I'm just singing to myself. you ever see movies of us or pictures of us at the end of a song, I never accept the audience's approval. I always turn my back. I don't want to say I don't care, but I really don't care if you care. if you're applying the fact that, Hey, you did good. I enjoyed that. That's cool. I don't have to have it.

I'm uncomfortable with with applause and things

like that. You know,

like it,

but I'm never going to be like, yeah, bring it up. Come on, come on, bring it up. Let's hear you.

Let me hear you. You

[00:14:17] Michaela: Yeah.

I love hearing this stuff because I also through all these conversations that we get to have I'm a singer songwriter and perform and put out records and Aaron's a, I want to say was a drummer is still a drummer, but now primarily produces records, but has been on stage and toured forever.

And so over the years, You start to get to know like there's so many different ways to do the business, but also to present yourself. But we still kind of adhere to this idea of Oh, that way, the rockstar way is what you're supposed to embody. And then I think some of us start to realize over time, either that's natural for you or not.

I've been in a process of being like, That's not my vibe either. I tell like

emotional stories on stage and I'm much

closer to the like, let's all sit close together and let me sing some emotional songs to you and we can connect and maybe cry like that kind of thing.

And it's taken me a long time to accept it. I've learned, I love hearing from people like you, because we also see through this podcast, the people who are very much like. this is me. It might not fit into the rockstar format. Maybe they have a smaller audience than you two, but the people who connect with you, like we saw on just sharing that Edwin McCain clip deeply connect.

And that's what I think is really beautiful when you like, as an artist, when you start to reconcile, like what I think I need to do to try to gain a career. And what is really authentically me is when you start to find the people who are like, Oh, I really like that thing. I like that. He's super honest.

[00:15:48] Kevn: It's two different things. Being an artist. And being a business person are two different things. So, my daughter had piano lessons as an example for years and her piano teacher liked to have recitals because he wants to show her 10 students and also she's kind of recruiting new people like, here's what I can do.

My daughter pulling her out of the car. She did not want to do it. So eventually I just told her like, you don't have to do this. And then I told her teacher, I said, I really want you to teach your piano. If she feels like she wants to learn how to be on stage. I'll call some of my friends that like to be on stage.

I'm not one of them,

but it's two totally different things, people who want to perform and people who want to create music. I don't think not being wanting to be on stage should keep you from writing music. It's very important to channel yourself, even if it's a terrible song or whatever it is. I always tell my kids just write what you mean, don't slam doors, just go downstairs and write a song about how much you hate me. Totally cool. I am totally cool with that. Let me hear it. You know, I don't mind.

[00:16:43] Aaron: happened? have they written songs?

[00:16:45] Kevn: Not that they've sung to me yet, no,

but, uh, you know, he's like 32 years old now, or 33. And,

he works in uh, Tyler Perry studios, building sets and stuff like that. But he's also a

great punk rock drummer, you know, There's so many different things. So I'm, I totally love the Rockstar thing. I'm not one of them. I love every night we did the Black Crowes. I sat in the audience and I enjoyed it. I thought

there was somebody I admire that they can do this. And that's so great. And then there's, people like Peter Buck who just have never gone a week without playing, has made numerous records and performed on numerous records since REM broke up.

And he's just a real role model for me. REM could do a stadium if they wanted to, but I don't think they want to.

it's up to them, but it doesn't keep them from getting in the van, driving in the white, little van.

he can afford a tour bus by himself, but he doesn't, he stays at the van, he does the merch, he works hard. And so that's one of my role models is Peter. Peter has really been a huge me as far as we produced my first solo record in 1988. I have a lot of good mentors, people like Warren Haynes people like Peter Bach and Mike Mills mean, I am also very humbled to know the people that are in the other graduate class.

Edwin and Ed Roland and people like that, who I really learned from younger Aaron Lee Tashin Jason Isbell Patterson Hood all of my colleagues that are maybe younger than me aren't 63 yet, but I think it's important for people like me.

To keep learning and keep moving forward I have a song called Ian McClagan. That's about it, about Ian McClagan, who was in the small faces and he played with the Rolling Stones. He played everybody, if you knew anything about him, he moved to Austin. 20 years ago, whatever he's passed away since obviously he just played with every local band that came in and you could Invite him to play with you.

he played every Monday or Tuesday night He could have just sat at the pub and sat at the bar and been like I was in the Roy Stones and Rod Stewart Faces drinks on me or everybody buy me a drink, you know Well, he didn't he got out there I never got to meet him But the last time I was on a bill You where he was on a bill he was playing in the afternoon with peter buck and steve went from the dream syndicate to have this band with scott mccoy Young fresh fellows. I think it was anyway. So I pull up and there's Ian McClagan walking up the alley with his amplifier, his keyboard under his arm in the rain. Like I'm like, did I just miss Ian McClagan? I said, yeah, that's him. I was like, that's Ian McClagan carrying his own crap up the

alley in the rain.

Bet they're playing at one in the afternoon to a bunch of hungover people at South by Southwest. That's so inspiring to me,

I'm only as good as my last whatever it is. I don't know last idea

[00:19:12] Aaron: You brought up, you were supposed to be a factory worker, a mill worker, blue collar thing. It seems like that mentality carries through everything. It's a respect for the work and a respect for the job and just doing the job and showing up and doing it consistently.

[00:19:24] Kevn: Yeah, I mean it's in the back of my head always how bad can this be,

Get my own hotel room. I mean, I don't know. it is tempered by the fact that five minutes before I go on stage, I'm standing on the side of the stage and I'm thinking to myself, this is the absolute last place in the world I want to be right now.

This is the last. with that,

I do not want to go up there. I do. And then you just, you really learn a lot from being a swimmer. You just got to go. Once you get in the water, you're like, Oh, I can't believe I haven't been in the water all day.

 

[00:19:49] Kevn: that's how it is for me. I'm like, Oh God, I really don't want to do this.

[00:19:53] Michaela: yeah,

[00:19:54] Kevn: that's the two hours that I'm working. The other 22 hours, I'm cataloging and writing and trying to think of something to say after 200 songs, I'm trying to think of another way to say what it is that I'm trying to say, who to say it to, I got a new set of record songs coming out, but I don't know how, how they're going. they've tested okay.

[00:20:11] Aaron: What's like a percentage of songs that you write versus that finally make the cut? Are you somebody that overwrites and then picks from there? Or is it generally if you're gonna finish the song, it's going to make an appearance?

[00:20:20] Kevn: I didn't, yeah, about 80%, 85%, probably we'll make it onto something. But that's When I started this band that I could do a solo, own solo things. There's some songs that I've been

writing lately that just, I don't know if they're going to work for driving and crying, or they're just going to wind up as acoustic tracks and driving and crying and then no one's going to listen to them. They're like, here's a pretty song next. it's easier doing the solo stuff, but to write with the band is I have to have the band there. Like it's really hard for me to write band songs. So that's where sound checks come in handy.

And the voice memo on my phone comes handy and just channeling or just whatever this, the catalog of things that sweep through your brain, you know, like when the Beatles started, they had little Richard Chuck Berry, and Bossa Nova beats, you know, they had like that cha cha cha kind of thing.

Then they had fifties rock and roll. That was pretty much what they had to draw from. As it moves through on, then late sixties bands have that to draw from. They also have, now they have a little bit of electric music coming in. They got big Bon Mathur and they got all Dwayne Eddy. They got a little bit more, they got the Beatles.

now you got Sergeant Pepper to follow. Then by the time you get to me, you got Ramones, all these influences. So it's like I'm influenced by so much. It's a very hard For me to focus one particular genre. So I just have let myself go and be free to do whatever I want to do.

but I've learned that to write a good rock song really is something I have to have the band to do.

I, it's really hard for me to sit at my table and write a good rock song.

[00:21:42] Aaron: yeah

[00:21:42] Kevn: I have to be inside the jet engine to make it work.

[00:21:45] Aaron: Did starting these multiple streams like driving and crying and then your solo thing, did this come out of having songs and not having an outlet for them?

Or did it come out of wanting to chase this outlet and then needing to have songs for that?

[00:21:57] Kevn: you know, when We first started, the first interviews I ever did was like, we're the band that's like your record collection. I was inspired by the Replacements and Bad Brains and the Bad Brains were like heavy metal and then reggae. I'm like, that is genius. and they can do all these different genres.

I wanted to be a band that was like a really good mixtape. and I'm cool with that. It's so much easier to write folk songs though, and pretty songs, and that can make you cry.

But usually I'll make myself cry too, so it's ugly.

[00:22:22] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:22:23] Kevn: But, I still cry when I hear I'll be in

the grocery store.

I know, Edwin McCain, that bastard, he's made me cry at Walmart more than anything. Uh,

[00:22:35] Aaron: Love that.

[00:22:36] Kevn: kill me.

[00:22:37] Michaela: So good. It's a great melody,

[00:22:39] Aaron: too.

[00:22:39] Kevn: Have you ever had stretches of time where you haven't felt like you've been able to write?

Yes.

I embrace those times. Yeah. I don't fight it. I just let it come. And if it comes, it comes. It doesn't come. It doesn't come. But you know, I've said what I have to say, so I don't really have to come up with anything. So I don't really have those feelings anymore.

[00:22:58] Aaron: Okay.

[00:22:58] Kevn: usually what I'll do is I'll write a song about writing a song

like that song I wrote I've just come here to sing to myself from what I took off my shelf from under my bed till I cleared my head and I was ready to listen. That was one of those songs I wrote coming out of.

trying to write a song or whatever like I don'tthe first line I think is very important and writing a song I think the first line is important to remember it and also set the stage, you know But what more can I say?

I've said it all. I've said

everything I needed to say. I gotta find a new way to say it. It would probably be the first line of a song if I really needed to write a song. That would probably be the first line I would write.

[00:23:30] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:23:30] Kevn: I don't know what to write. I don't know who cares. I don't know who's listening.

[00:23:35] Aaron: When you're saying if I need to write a song, is it like a practice like that? Do you approach writing songs like it's a job to show up and get these out? Or is it a need, like a

internal, you know, kind of

[00:23:44] Kevn: no, I don't care. I don't have a record company anymore that needs product or anything like that. I just let it go. Hopefully some of this stuff comes through channeling or just leaving myself open for other people to come through me.

I feel like that's happened a few times.

Some songs have just appeared,

I don't touch them. I just let fall out. but that's probably all in my head. I don't know.

It's all in there somewhere because I listen to a lot of music. you know, going back to what you said, it was like by popular demand, but you know, I'm a music fan.

I think I'm friends with a lot of musicians because I really, I support musicians. I really love to go see them play. I support my friends. I always buy their records. I always pay to Go see them unless it's sold out. I'm a music fan. First of all, I started off being a music fan.

When I was 14 years old, I went and saw, you know, the Rolling Stones, and it was 10 to see them and it was a

big deal. So, and loving music and learning how people work with it, you know, I'm inspired their new record like why did ed roland and Why did click this little make a ninth record? Okay, that's good. I see that. I can get into that. you know, like what inspires them to keep moving on and what keep writing songs and, you know, I, right now my wife has put together this project.

I don't know if you've heard about it. It's called let's go dancing. Have you heard about this?

[00:24:57] Aaron: I'm not.

[00:24:58] Kevn: there's two volumes of it and there's going to be. There's gonna be even more and what it is, it's all Jari Kryan songs Rerecorded by people and benefit record.

[00:25:07] Aaron: Cool. Cool.

[00:25:09] Kevn: you can find it.

It's called Let's go dancing This one Is like

[00:25:12] Aaron: one of those?

[00:25:12] Kevn: Yeah, he's on the next one

[00:25:14] Aaron: Cool.

[00:25:15] Kevn: My brother, Elizabeth Cook, Butch Walker, Darius Rucker, Jesse Malin, Chuck Need from BR549, Jimmy Vovino, Anna Kramer, Mike Farris is on this one and uh, the guy from Five Blind Boys of Alabama.

it's a cool record. And she's got, there's going to be four eventually. There's two out now. it's fun to listen to those records. I'm going off on a tangent when I was going at it, but they're all different versions, like a lot of people have deconstructed this song and made it much better. So it's fun to listen to what I was. really stubborn about recording the record. And I remember the reason I call it Good Dancer was it's the one song that has been of my catalog. There's so many people have been like, that's a great song or that song should have been a hit or that's this guy, Andy Johns.

He worked with Zeppelin and Van Halen, you know, Stones. the day before he was supposed to record, he. Called it canceled and said, Hey, I go to rehab.

[00:26:07] Aaron: Oh, So he met where he met Eddie Van Halen and then they

[00:26:10] Kevn: made 1984 or some big record.

[00:26:13] Aaron: Whoa.

[00:26:13] Kevn: but I remember he loved that song and I was always wondering what it would be like if he did it.

and then Emily Harris was like, I love that song. Disco dance. And I was like yeah, that's good. But, uh. leon Wilkinson from Skinner, when we play with them every night, he's still inside the stage. It was like, you can play, let's go dance. And I was like, Patterson hood so I don't know what it is about that one song.

So that anyway, that's every record starts off with a version of that. it's really listening to what producers were trying to tell me. And then I was like, I don't do it that way. I can't learn. I and then hearing people. Really deconstructed, like David Ryan Harris from

Fall For Now, he played with John Mayer for a while.

He did a song called Good Day Every Day. And a lot of these are on, I have a Spotify playlist called Let's Go Dancing if you can check it out. All the songs are on there. It's really cool. Let's

he did an amazing version of this song that was like, not a song that I hated playing. And he turned it, he totally turned it upside down.

So I guess if anything, I'm inspired to write more songs that are not up to quality that someone else can rerecord and fix. This is

my goal is my new goal

is

my next record should be called shit. You can fix, cause Ed, Edwin McCain did an amazing version of the song called powerhouse. That was just the, hear him scream.

His fans would not know it was him.

It's totally

out of his element.

[00:27:28] Aaron: you mentioned in there producers would ask you to do it a certain way and you're like, nah, I can't do that.

I want to hear more about that. Was it more than just like, you weren't hearing that idea? you were hearing your song a certain way.

You're like, no, we're doing it this way. Gotcha.

[00:27:43] Kevn: I'm not a musician I don't know how to play music. Like I'm not, you'll never see me like sitting in with somebody. I don't know it's a D diminished in ninth.

And then it, it goes, you know, transitions to the seventh. But there's the augmented ninth in there. I'm like not a clue. What'd

you say D? I know where the D is

[00:28:01] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:28:02] Kevn: and they're like, well, you're playing it. That's what that is. Like, Oh, it's a G I'm gonna pick up my finger. I know you're playing. That's an augmented ninth.

They're like, okay

I guess I do know that one. if you're shouting it off to me in the middle of the thing, I don't know what it means.

So in saying that, when I get into the studio and he's saying to me, timing is really hard for me.

you know, I worked with Anton Feared for three records and he was like, you could not please, well I guess you can't please him, but you had to please him by being yourself, but also being perfect.

[00:28:28] Aaron: Mm Which is really hard for me, and I know a lot of people, dealt with it pretty good. I know a lot of people who would have just walked out, a lot of people that did. But, I couldn't be mad at him because he knew, he knew me better than me, like I recorded it and then I went out and I did whatever that would come back in the studio.

[00:28:43] Kevn: He's like, well, I was out running around doing whatever. He was listening to that song over and over and learning how this song should be, what's wrong with this song. It's too fast. It's too busy. That part doesn't need to be there. It's too long. He's saying that too many times. you should say that more, you should put a bridge in here and a chorus here and slow it down, speed it up, move it on, get it on.

And I'm just not open to that because I'm not a musician. I wish I loved being in the studio, but I would rather go to the dentist than go to the recording studio.

[00:29:10] Aaron: Mm hmm.

[00:29:13] Kevn: It's harder to get into it than it is to do it.

[00:29:16] Aaron: So Anton would throw these things out and you would just, reject the idea and say

[00:29:20] Kevn: Well, Anton, you weren't going to reject it. You're going to, you're going to sit there until you figured it out. And then it would

be your best that you could do.

you would come in and it would be really great. And someone else had played it. Uh, uh,

[00:29:31] Michaela: I,

I

Feel like our social media clip of this conversation should just be Kevin Cuney from driving and crying. I'm not a musician.

[00:29:38] Kevn: I'm not a musician.

I'm not, I know where the capo is. And I know I play the G and the C and the D and A minor, B's are really hard, F sharp, it's good if I'm rocking, standing up, you know, like I say, I'm just feel so good after the show's over and

I feel so good while I'm doing it and it really does heal me to sing to myself.

It really is.

Really helpful to my mental health to be able vent and share. And then by default have other people come and share that they have a similar thing, it's not like I'm writing

songs for. or people in Brazil rainforest.

I'm ready for Americans that grew up like I do watching good times and happy days. So it's not like I don't know if I'm a universal thing. I'm an American artist that really rarely leaves the South anymore. I really just do Midwest and Northeast. Northwest once a year

maybe but you know, I'm a big American touring.

I'm big in France. Basically, I got

South of the Mason Dixon line

[00:30:36] Michaela: Yeah.

[00:30:37] Kevn: east of the Mississippi. That's like my territory If you want to see Driver to Cry you should probably come to us because we probably won't come to you I think we've retired from Boston and New York and Buffalo and Cleveland They're

probably never gonna go there.

Let's see We're opening for somebody,

and that's okay.

[00:30:54] Aaron: Yeah,

[00:30:55] Kevn: That's okay with me.

[00:30:57] Michaela: okay. We've talked about this many times on this podcast the idea that, okay, if you're going to be a touring musician, you have to go everywhere. And it's like, well, why?

what if you identify the places you really want to go and like where you really connect to people and zero in on that?

And why does it have to be covering every territory possible so that you're just like running yourself ragged year after year after year?

[00:31:19] Kevn: Yeah. And it's very expensive

[00:31:21] Michaela: Yeah,

[00:31:22] Kevn: to do anything. I mean, a hotel room is

150. I can take a guest is a hundred dollars. So there's two 50 at the top. If you're only making 300 at an open mic, you're already in the hole. And, Atlanta, in Athens, in January, I'll be doing a residency.

I'm going to work on new songs, and playing it once a month at Eddie's Attic and at this place in Athens, I was just going to play once a month in the same place so people can find me, people can come to me and we can have a conversation and you an opportunity to be disappointed and then come back and be verbally disappointed later. Cause I'm not going to always going to play the song. I mean, I can't possibly play 170 songs. So I'm going to, I'm to irritate. Somebody

[00:32:02] Aaron: keeps ringing in my head? you know, you sing these songs for yourself. You're trying to heal yourself. It's you're showing up in this authenticity that then gives everybody else permission to show up as themselves, you know? and that's what I see with people like, like Aaron Lee Tassian to keep bringing him up or John Moreland, who was just a recent guest, the people that just, they just show up as themselves.

And they're like, here I am. Warts and all I'm singing my songs and this is how I'm doing it and show up or don't show up and it just like creates this energy in the room or this acceptance of everybody just like Cool, they don't have to put on a mask They don't have to like put on any pretension It's just like i'm just

gonna show up as me and that's a special unique thing that we can do as artists, I think

[00:32:37] Kevn: it is and nothing against anybody else that wants to show up with the face mask or whatever. It's like I enjoy anybody who's being real

[00:32:44] Aaron: Yeah fully

[00:32:45] Kevn: I think kiss is as real as Bob Dylan

[00:32:48] Aaron: I I and it has just as much of an influence and it changes people it makes people happy just as much

[00:32:53] Kevn: as Bob Dylan. John Denver is just as valid as

[00:32:56] Michaela: Mm hmm.

[00:32:58] Kevn: Both great, both different, both hit different heartstrings.

[00:33:01] Michaela: Yep.

[00:33:01] Kevn: there's so many different vibrations within a single note. you know, as being trained Institute of Music students, hopefully that was the first thing you learned was like, if everybody walks in the room and hits a G note on the guitar, they're all going to be different.

[00:33:18] Aaron: Yep.

[00:33:19] Kevn: Give me softer,

harder. Someone's got vibrato. Someone is all going to be different.

Just one single note. And then you add the hundreds And thousands of other notes in there.

[00:33:28] Michaela: one of the negatives of going to music school is the, pretension that can come with it In my experience, it felt like they were trying to train us to be like, this is good music and this is bad music. And I grew up loving pop music.

Like what you were saying, like I get massive enjoyment out of listening to Shania Twain and the Spice Girls of my youth and

like whatever and then also and like dancing around and then listening to a really, introspective heavy Emotional folk song Townes Van Zandt or a Guy

Clark but we can in some places Classify.

That's good. That's good bad taste, and this is good taste, and it ruins so much enjoyment. And I spent years not letting myself enjoy what I truly enjoyed because I thought it made me less than, and it's taken me a long time to be like, Fuck that. I like what people call bad music and I like what some people call good music.

And I'm not vibing with some music that people tell me is like the greatest music ever. Like, 'cause we're all different and we all like vibrate with different things.

[00:34:33] Kevn: I think that. My friends who have been to Juilliard and Berkeley and I think Aaron Lee Tashin went to Berkeley for a

little while. I think the struggle for y'all is a lot harder for, than me. I've always just been me. the little bit of time that I had to spend with Anton Fear,

it was like going to graduate school without going to high school. he was so far above me. it was hard for me to catch up and the, and the musicians that he had, like, oh, he, his guy Tony Sheer, gonna play guitar on this, but he is the

bass player for gold. You know, you know them, right?

I'm like, no. I don't, and I could hold the torch to, these people that are like Catherine Popper and all the Airelie Taschen and the Mastersons and they're, watching musicians talk amongst themselves is just really beautiful. But I think it's harder to become Picasso.

what made Picasso great was, yes, Picasso could paint like Rembrandt. he'd learned the techniques to learn to recreate a masterpiece. then he had to say well, I can do that. Aaron Latashkin, he can do all that. But then for Aaron to become who Aaron is now is another level past that.

like Aaron is so unique. Now he's writing, he's not writing Americana. He's writing this really interesting, like space pop,

uh, How to describe it.he could use all of his best friends in Nashville and make an Americana record challenge anybody else's Americana record, it doesn't feel right to him.

He wants to be himself. He wants to say what he wants to say in his way of saying it. I think it's really hard to do once you've been trained like y'all have been trained or whatever to break out of that to deconstruct yourself with all this knowledge and I mean I know because I hear it in Anton Fear like and a lot of the things that I learned from him carry over into things like the studio like don't bring food in my fucking studio.

This is not where you eat.

Don't take phone calls. Turn your phone off. Don't watch TV. Come here and listen. It's

And then record and then leave.

[00:36:13] Aaron: Mm-Hmm. all this. Don't bring your friends. Don't bring dip.

[00:36:18] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.

[00:36:19] Kevn: Don't bring shit into my fucking studio. And it's that really resonated with me later I mean, I learned that back in the eighties but I'm like, yeah, you're right.

This is not a place. I mean, I do a session and people want to do that, it becomes a fun hang and whatever we're making music and I can allow myself to do that. He could not do that, but that's where, that's

what I'm saying.

I have this level of. what I hear in my head is right, but I can also deconstruct that and be like that's not always right It depends on the circumstance, i'm gonna let that go I know that i'm not supposed to play that faster. I know i'm supposed to change time signature I'm, no not supposed to let this get faster towards the end or escalate That's not the right way to do it and you have to say no That's the way I want to do it and

that's what i'm hearing and so it's hard To dismiss What your masters have taught you to be yourself, it's not fucking easy to do But I've grown comfortable Like I say, I'm totally cool with disappointing you,

[00:37:11] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:37:13] Kevn: you know But I have also been learning through this record that I'm not always right I was totally wrong. I should have listened to you. I should have slowed it down there. why did I think I knew what I was doing? these are epiphanies that are hitting me three, four years ago. And some of it's hitting me this week. and I'm 64 years old, I've been doing this since 1980, 1978. I started so

a lot of this stuff, it took me a long time to really embrace. Cause I, you know, it's hard to be yourself sometimes.

[00:37:39] Aaron: It is. It's a constant practice. You know, It's not a one and done kind of thing.

You know, it's not a switch.

[00:37:44] Michaela: Well you know, tying it back to going to music school when you're literally getting a grade for your learning how to create art it sets you up from the very beginning with an attachment to what the judgment of your work is which can be limit and prohibit like how safe you feel to explore and try to learn who you are.

and then you enter the real world and there's a million ways that the world does that to you anyways the internet comments, the press, whatever.

But again, it goes back to like referencing people like you and like Aaron Lee Tajjan. And like, Aaron's a friend, but also I'm a huge Aaron fan because.

And from the beginning of hearing him, I was like, Oh, that's somebody who's himself. And it like really resonated with me where I always want to cry when I hear him sing because it just feels like he's like letting us in. And that's not something that you can train people to do. We all have to evolve at our own pace to be able to embody that.

[00:38:41] Kevn: He's also not afraid to fall in love with an artist and try to emulate them.

You can tell if he's been listening to The Wallflowers all week.

[00:38:50] Aaron: Mm hmm.

[00:38:52] Kevn: basically what I'm doing. I listen to Robin Trower I'm trying to be, that's what I'm trying to do. he's never afraid to just be like, Yep, all I've listened to is Big Star this week.

this show's gonna be like a Big Star show. you know,

that's one of the things I love about Aaron too, is he just really is never afraid to be himself as far as just maybe being goofy or being whatever it is that he is, or letting it go.

He's played guitar with driving kind of for a good bit and we've played together a lot and he's just really good at channeling just come up in parts. It's

really great to watch them do that.

[00:39:20] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:39:21] Michaela: Well, And like you said, being an artist and being a business person are two separate things. Being an artist is exploring and trying on different things. Sometimes when you have to put on your like, music business hat, that might not be the wisest move because you're confusing markets and whatever, it's like the value of just exploring for yourself your own

[00:39:40] Kevn: Well, I'm learning, my wife every week, she has a new single up from this project and every week she's struggling with you can't put this on Tik TOK, whether you have too many words or you can't put this on this and I can't put that on that. When I talked with Aaron, like Aaron asked for my advice sometimes, and I have to say be yourself, be cool.

do a residency. I don't know the things that I learned how to do in 1978 that I carried, that I learned my whole life. Getting a good demo tape and then getting it to the right person and doing a great show and then getting on the label and then they're going to help.

None of that exists anymore.

 

[00:40:12] Kevn: none of it exists. producers don't get paid 30, 000 anymore. you don't have to make a hit record in a recording studio. you don't have to spend any time or money on it. it can just have a great idea, put it on your laptop and then put it out there tomorrow.

none of my advice works anymore my only advice to anybody who's. Doing this as if it's working, you're happy with it just don't fuck it up for the sake of fucking it up, like I did, you know. Like, I was just like, I kinda got ahead of myself, and I didn't appreciate having a publicist. having a record company pay for a publicist until I had my own record company. Like, how do I get this, oh, five thousand a week? Oh, Jesus. I wish, I wish I'd taken better advantage of that situation. I did not know that. Oh boy. How much is the studio? Really? How much I spent on that studio?

Wow. I would have spent a lot more. I thought it was free. I don't know. I was. would not have walked in hungover at three in the afternoon. I would have went down to the studio and been at 10. Oh, wow. I should have been there, you know? my only advice is to people is appreciate what you have at this moment, because as much as you have to, it can also go away very quickly. there's just so many people who want that space right now and there's millions of people going to do it if it's working, just stick with it,

you want to be yourself, but also be appreciative of what you have when you have it because when you don't have it, it, You can't always get it back, I hate to say it, but it's, I don't know if that even matters anymore.

It just, I guess you just keep fishing for tick tock videos and things like that. You know, I don't know, Aaron was under a lot of pressure from his record company to create a new tick tock every week. And so I was like well, I don't, here's a write a list of things that, I don't know, bake a cake on Monday, show a picture of you baking a cake and then fly a kite change your tire,

uh, change your batteries in your radio.

here I am on TikTok. You know, And I would run out of things to do to become a viral sensation.

I don't, there's only so many recipes I have. that did not exist. Like Bruce Springsteen, when he. first started. until Dancing in the Dark, you never saw Bruce Springsteen. He was never on TV. was never on Midnight Special. Don Kirshner's rock concert. You could not see Bruce Springsteen unless you went to see his show.

End of story. You had to buy a ticket and wait. And, it was really a great era.

I really love that era, which is why I try to thank the audience every night for like getting out of your house and coming down here to support live music because you know what? I'm not taking that for granted because I've been through COVID. It can go away. People can stop coming.

 

[00:42:40] Kevn: so I'm just really appreciative of, I try not to upset the apple cart too much. I leave politics. Out of it. I'm not good at that either.

[00:42:48] Michaela: what a different world though. It's so drastically different from 1970s and 80s and 90s, even 2000s. Like

today's,

[00:42:57] Aaron: even 2018. Yeah.

[00:42:59] Kevn: and I, you know, I love all that. like Taylor Swift really was a huge before she had records that I think, I mean, I know Billie Eilish was my granddaughter was talking about her way before she was, we saw her anywhere. her brother and her made records in her room in the seventies, you would have never got that.

I guess

the quality wasn't going to be there, but there's no way you would've got, it. At all because you had to do the record company and you had to go visit the record stores. And

[00:43:24] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:43:24] Kevn: up until the nineties or late you couldn't buy a record at a concert.

we were not allowed to sell music at our

concerts. You could only

buy t shirts. You could never buy an album of a band at a concert. You

had the directive to the record

[00:43:38] Aaron: I didn't

[00:43:39] Michaela: know that.

[00:43:40] Kevn: is very rare to see anybody sell any music at a concert.

[00:43:45] Aaron: Wow. Crazy. That makes sense, but I, that never fired off in my head.

[00:43:50] Kevn: Yeah. So when you saw that great concert, you had to get your car the next morning

and go to turtles and buy it. Hopefully they have that in stock.

[00:43:58] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:43:59] Kevn: it was a cool era. Cause it made you want things, you know, made you covet. Your

best friend's record

[00:44:05] Aaron: Right. Talk about, being grateful for what's there. It's like everybody just assumes that everything is available all the time, anywhere,

[00:44:12] Kevn: and for free now on spotify. It's just

[00:44:14] Aaron: I have no advice for anybody mean, I made a solo record two years ago. It came out, I guess Or maybe more, maybe four years ago, Anyway I don't know how to make people listen to it. mean it's there, I can't afford the, publicist and I don't really know how to even advise myself. My wife is doing this thing with the Let's Go Dancing thing and it's really, and we've hired publicists and we've hired teams and your publicist is really only as good as their best act.

[00:44:38] Kevn: And, you know, they publicist it seems to me like they take ten artists, and two get attention, and the other eight pay for the two that get attention. Until the next time you hire them, and then maybe you're in the lottery, and maybe you can be the top two. But you wind up just being one of the ten, you know, the only reason you've heard of Fly Me Courageous, or Joy of Every Kind, is because we spent 100, 000. On publicists people who grease the palms of record companies and radio stations and all that. That's the only reason you heard about us.

[00:45:05] Aaron: Right. And because there was an outlet for them. talking to friends that are, music publicist. But then also I had a friend stop by yesterday who works PR for GM. Like he worked for GM. He's

just here for Nissan, like cars. Everybody needs a car to get somewhere. And he's saying that even his job's getting harder because these companies, even car magazines, nobody's buying car magazines.

So these companies aren't paying publicists anymore. They're paying influencers on social media to

[00:45:27] Kevn: exactly.

[00:45:28] Aaron: an egg roll in the back of their new SUV or something like that, because

people want to see that. Like. the whole system everywhere is getting up and running.

[00:45:35] Michaela: It's changing. Yeah.

even I've, I started putting out records in 2014 and I felt like I've had good press over the years where I've been reviewed by the New York Times and Rolling Stone. And like, even in the last 10 years of having that, that doesn't change, the Your life maybe a few more people come to your show and you and learned about you But you spent so much money to get you know And whether it was like my record label or whatever and that the impact of those big press things getting smaller and smaller and musicians are like, this is crazy.

We're still spending all this money on publicists, even when they can get something. And when can they even get something? Does it make a difference? And then I have lots of friends who are publicists and they're like, we have a thankless job. Everyone's mad at us all the time. And we

[00:46:18] Kevn: Ha ha.

[00:46:19] Michaela: we can't get people to review records anymore.

They don't do song premieres. We don't even know where to go. you know, the whole ecosystem is. dramatically changing

[00:46:27] Kevn: Dramatically changed. yeah,

publicist basically right now is the best you can hope for is get you on Jimmy Kimmel or something like that, you know. You're never gonna get, you're never gonna get on Jamaica Kimel without a publicist.

I don't care if Jimmy Kimmel himself comes to see you and likes you, he's gonna wanna call your publicist.

getting songs in the soundtracks and things, I think are probably one of the biggest goals you could have. If you're gonna make, try to make money in this. Business is trying to get the Sopranos soundtrack the little band from Birmingham

That's not of the Sopranos.

That'll change your life,

[00:46:59] Aaron: Yeah. any given year, like 50 percent of what I do is for sync and writing for licensing with people. And, we're sitting down here, I'm sitting down with like people that have deals with like major publishers, like they're great writers can like really just cut to the bone on like a writing, like an artist song.

We're sitting here writing songs specifically to be placed on

TV and all of that. so I have this conversation with a lot of artists like, man, I'd love to get into sync. And I'm like, cool, I can't rely on it. And I specifically write songs to be placed on TV.

sometimes it's great.

There's times where it's six months and it's crickets, you know, it's just a hustle in a different direction.

[00:47:32] Kevn: the six month cricket is really were you

[00:47:34] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:47:36] Kevn: I know

[00:47:36] Aaron: everything. Yeah, and you're like, I'm

[00:47:37] Michaela: going to give it up. And then the next day, then you get an email like, Hey, you just placed a song. Okay. I'm not giving it Yeah, yeah

[00:47:44] Aaron: Cool. Another three months. Here we go.

[00:47:46] Kevn: Yeah The only the only advantage that we have the only really good thing that I see out of that Over the last 40 years was that in 1988, 89, 90, when Flaming Courageous came out, it came out in 91, I think, But when that came out, our second record, Whisper James Lion was cut out from Island.

If you wanted to hear it, you had to find a record store. And somebody would have had to have bought it and then returned it and sold it as used because there was no way for you to hear that song, hear that record. You were never going to hear that record. so that's one thing that I didn't like when everybody was Napster, everybody's talking about streaming in my position where I am, but I don't know where I am.

I reside in the Zeitgeist, but at least I know that my music, if somebody in China. Or India or I don't know if someone wants to hear a Kevin McKinney song They can actually find it

and listen

to it I have to tell them that they do it But at least they don't have to hear about it and then try to drive somewhere to find

[00:48:43] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:44] Kevn: that's one thing that

in my own world I'm not losing millions of dollars.

Like I'm sure that some of these artists were getting publishing checks in the millions and now they get 500,000 or something. Like where it's like drastically different.

You know, I was getting

$800, now I get three or four. I mean, I could see where metallic would be like, what the hell?

We made $11 million a year on that. Now we're making 4 million or 1 million or whatever, you know?

So that percentages doesn't really matter it's not really hurting me. It's one expensive dinner difference a year, you know?

[00:49:18] Michaela: so basically, I feel like the summary of this conversation is The music business is crazy and always has been. There's pros and cons to the past and the present. And be yourself and do it because you need to do it for yourself. For your own healing.

[00:49:32] Kevn: as far as I'm concerned, as in my lane,

[00:49:35] Michaela:

[00:49:35] Kevn: like I tell people that want me to produce them, I was like, I can only make you sound like me. I don't know how to make you. a good producer can say, I want to sound like this and they can help you guide you through that.

I can only be me. but I appreciate all the other means out there. I appreciate the Axl Roses and the.

Kiss, and I love ACDC, and I love Joan Armatraden, and I love, I love them all. I

love Billie Eilish love the Allman Brothers, and sorts of stuff,

[00:50:01] Aaron: There's always an audience for authenticity.

[00:50:03] Kevn: And you know, maybe someday if we just keep making records and keep putting them out there, you know Just maybe you'll have an amazing box set someday

Someone will find you.

know, I always have hope that someone will find me.

[00:50:14] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're creating things that are gonna hopefully outlast us,

[00:50:18] Kevn: that's a good goal,

[00:50:20] Michaela: like you say, I think that sums it up right. Just be yourself and do what you do and try to limit your frustrations. cause you know, I what, I don't know what to do about it.

I can't worry about it.

[00:50:29] Aaron: Yeah. Just to bring the, mill worker analogy back in, just like, keep showing up to work.

[00:50:33] Michaela: yeah. I feel like the positive way to end it. Is to be,

[00:50:37] Kevn: Yeah.

[00:50:38] Michaela: doing what we're all doing and try

to be grateful

for our little corners and uh, connecting with each other through being ourselves.

[00:50:45] Kevn: And be local.

I am 100 percent local organic.

I am.

[00:50:52] Aaron: pasture

[00:50:53] Kevn: grass fed, local, I'm organic, I'm gonna be here once a month. If you need to come see me play, I'll be here.

if you're feeling frustrated, just play to your best friend, or get a residency at a coffee shop, and make that yours. Make it just do it every Monday night it'll, it'll be very freeing to

just play to you and your girlfriend or your dog.

It's okay.

[00:51:16] Aaron: Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you for carving up the time this morning to sit with us and have this conversation.

[00:51:21] Michaela: We'll keep on keeping on. It was nice to meet y'all. And I love your interview with Edwin. That was very sweet.

[00:51:25] Aaron: Oh, thanks. Yeah. Thanks for joining us for this one.

[00:51:28] Michaela: Thank you.

See

ya. Bye.

[00:51:30] Kevn: Bye.