Langhorne Slim has released 10 records over the last 20 years on a handful of labels (currently Dualtone Records), played festivals ranging from Newport Folk to Lollapalooza, late night shows from Letterman to Conan, and has had his music used in many many television shows and commercials. We go deep and vulnerable pretty quickly on everything from addiction/sobriety, the relentless inner monologue, mountain top envy, his new-found parenthood, and a whole lot more.
Langhorne Slim has released 10 records over the last 20 years on a handful of labels (currently Dualtone Records), played festivals ranging from Newport Folk to Lollapalooza, late night shows from Letterman to Conan, and has had his music used in many many television shows and commercials. We go deep and vulnerable pretty quickly on everything from addiction/sobriety, the relentless inner monologue, mountain top envy, his new-found parenthood, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. This is our second year of this podcast. We're so happy to still be here. Thank you for being here
[00:00:21] Aaron: with us. Yeah, we're keenly aware that we wouldn't be able to do this without you guys, or at least it'd be very lame if we were doing this just for ourselves.
And Thank you so much. We have a small ask for you, The first and easiest one is to just give us a follow or subscribe on whatever platform you listen to. It's a great way to let the algorithm know that we should be in front of other people. The second way would be If you're a returning listener, pick your favorite episode, whether it's this episode or one from last year, and share it with somebody that doesn't know about our show yet.
we like to say this show is for our community, from our community, and that's the best way to spread the word, is word of mouth. And lastly, if you want to directly support what we're doing here, we have launched a Patreon. And with that, you get exclusive content, some behind the scenes stuff.
But also one of our favorite things is that we like to announce our guests early. And that gives everybody a chance to, submit some questions for us to ask our guests and really kind of make this a community conversation here.
So the link to that is in the show notes, or you can go to theother22hours. com and just click on Patreon.
[00:01:25] Michaela: And because we are not music journalists, we are working musicians ourselves, we feel like we're able to go to some really interesting places in these conversations. Based on sharing the honest realities of building a lifelong career around your art and all that goes with it.
[00:01:41] Aaron: As most of you know, there is so much that is outside of our control in that journey of building a career around your art. And with that, we've decided to distill that down to the question, do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And in this episode, we got to ask that of our longtime friend Sean Skolnick, known to the wider audience as Langhorn Slim.
[00:02:04] Michaela: Sean has been doing this for a long time, over 20 years he said, and he has, Had an incredible career by just resume standards.
He's been on late night TV Letterman Conan He's licensed a ton of songs to TV shows and commercials. He's played all the festivals Newport Bonnaroo He's toured with cake Ava brothers Josh Ritter old 97s Grace Potter just to name a few But he has always been incredibly generous publicly and through his music about the realities of being a human and living life with addiction and anxiety and depression just with really, really brave honesty, which he shared some hard earned wisdom today with us.
[00:02:47] Aaron: Yeah, it's a really beautiful conversation. And so without further ado, here's Langhorne Slim.
[00:02:52] Sean: Oh, yeah, I made you guys bigger. That's better.
[00:02:55] Aaron: how'd you do that? Just so we know, because we've had people asked before we have no,
[00:02:57] Sean: There's a little, because Alyssa just the smart person and she just showed me, there was a little thing in the corner that minimized my screen and made yours bigger, We
as I've learned in the zoom world, which I do, recovery meetings on zoom And stare at myself half the time. And I'm like, maybe I should face this way
[00:03:20] Michaela: we had Robert Ellis on here and we started the conversation talking about this of what it's doing to our minds that we're spending so much time having conversations looking at ourselves.
[00:03:29] Sean: I don't think it's good.
[00:03:30] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:03:32] Sean: when you're fortunate enough to like spend time In nature maybe have a vacation at the beach or something, and you don't change your clothes, really, and you don't stare at yourself in the mirror, and Maybe it's just me, maybe it's just the hippie in me, but like, get dirty, and a little smelly, feel better.
[00:03:48] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:49] Sean: Proof's in the pudding for me, personally, with that.
but it's a tool that we can do this on a snowy day, and Don't have to cancel or something so
[00:03:57] Aaron: Yeah. Exactly.
[00:03:58] Sean: not all bad
[00:03:59] Aaron: You'll have to give our gratitude to Alyssa. This is like close to the 50th episode that we've recorded and we had no idea that we could just shrink. We've been staring at ourselves mercilessly for
[00:04:08] Sean: Did you just figure it out on your own?
[00:04:09] Aaron: Yep. Yep. Yeah, and it's amazing. So thank you, Alyssa.
[00:04:13] Sean: She is she's real good And a lot of things but a lot of things that I am no good at and that's a beautiful thing
[00:04:22] Michaela: Yeah. That's the type of partner you want. Balance each other out.
[00:04:25] Sean: So true
[00:04:26] Michaela: And we apologize for our delay. I was trying to get our child to take a nap,
[00:04:32] Sean: we're in the same boat. I figured for this, it was like, Let's just do it regardless. And even if the kids were here or dogs are barking, it's we're talking about musician life and what it's like off the road, then we don't need to pretend that it isn't what it is,
[00:04:46] Michaela: One of the things I increasingly think about is how being a career musician, a lot of times it makes it feel like.
You're not supposed to have a life because you're supposed to just be dedicated to touring and promoting and writing and recording all the time. But how do you have, any depth in your material if you don't have a very full personal life, but the business of being a professional musician doesn't really leave room for honoring or creating space for a personal life.
So that's part of this podcast is wanting to talk about that, how, Making those choices to prioritize that in your life, not try to hide it from your fans, the public or whatever, and also in the business of it, of the conflict that can come with being like, no, this is family time, or I'm not just going to be 100 percent all in on my career.
It's such an interesting dichotomy to me the art cannot exist without being a full human. Doesn't really want you to be a full human.
[00:05:50] Sean: Yeah, but that's, I think, a trap that we can fall into or try to navigate in that, well, I can only speak from my personal experience. I have been, you know, a touring musician for the last 20 years and putting out records for, I think, about that long. I guess I'll just speak about like the family stuff because that's just where I'm at right now. And then just you know, got with my partner about two years ago, which was the first. serious relationship that I had had in a long time, which came with a seven year old, amazing child and now stepdaughter, four dogs moving into a new house, and then shortly thereafter, our beautiful son. and I'm also 43.
I think, from my own experience that just blasted me off into this other universe. And thankfully, I didn't have, for me, I didn't have a whole lot of time to sit around and analyze it. It was just like, this train is going, and I was like, should I buy this ticket or not buy this ticket? And I was like, I'm gonna buy this ticket.
And I think because of my age, maybe, and because of how I've lived my life, my whole adult life up until now, I was so ready for something in my, we'll call it my personal life, that was just like a totally new adventure, that, if I lean into that, How do I say this without sounding super cheesy? Like, By leaning into that, I trust that it will help the business end of it as well. Or, more importantly, the creative end of it. Because it's giving me, this whole new lens, A good friend of mine who I don't think is one for cliches, had a baby soon before we did, And he's like, all I can tell you bro, is that all the fucking cliches are true.
And now that I'm in this situation, I'm like, yeah, that was about right. And yeah, it's gives us a more expansiveness in our hearts and souls and stuff like that. And because it's still new for me, I've been like turned on and inspired by it. and when I am feeling that way, I trust that it is good for the. My business as Langhorn Slim, you know, I think it's different for a lot of people. I think it's different. Just my experience in the last five and a half months with my partner, Alyssa, who is a woman, and the demands on her it's very different. And I think the way that the industry views us, men and women is probably different as, parents and stuff like that.
But, I'm just always been a little slut for the feeling and for the grease. And so where I, where I get it, And by slut, there's nothing cheap in that. That's like a beautiful slut, I hope. In that it's like
[00:08:22] Michaela: technically a slut's got a lot of love to give, right?
[00:08:25] Sean: well,
I got a lot of
ha ha ha ha ha. but I, But I also find I need to receive, yeah, love, but just you know, energy, connection, something that kind of throws a wrench in I fall into that's my own sort of not stability, but like the mundane kind of. deal, which even an exciting life can become mundane if that's just what you're doing all the time. So something that's like vastly different, which having a family is at the moment feels like it's opening me up to like, try new things creatively, and also a cliche that I heard from some others, which is people get scared, and I probably did, but again, I'm so new at this that you guys might be thinking like you just wait But Where I used to and I still do but I used to sit around a lot more and just like Oh, I just want the song to come or I just want to get better at the guitar And I still do a lot of that kind of Pushing away and procrastinating But I'm using my time a little bit more effectively, and feel more focused in what I'm, trying to do.
[00:09:25] Aaron: of artists that step into parenthood. It's like, what did I do before? I'm able to fit more into three hours now than I could into an entire day before
[00:09:36] Sean: Yeah, you have
[00:09:36] Aaron: and it feels crazy at first, but it doesn't necessarily feel like superhuman at this point.
It's just like what you got to do. And the way of life. You mentioned briefly like, the way the industry views men and women when it comes to parenthood, right? I would love to hear what your team and situation, what their response was when you said that you were going to be a dad.
[00:09:55] Sean: They fired me.
[00:09:56] Aaron: Did they? Oh, I was like, oh damn. I
[00:09:59] Michaela: was like, you're the first man we've heard that from.
[00:10:02] Sean: No, they didn't, but I, I have heard from women friends that they have found it a lot harder to find interest in getting a, you know, a deal or something like that they were interested at first and then found out that they were mothers and then had less interest, which I guess I'm naive enough that I don't really that.
Does it mean that The public will be less interested in you if you have a kid or something I, I don't, do you guys think on your end?
[00:10:30] Michaela: Well, We asked this question of or we tried to of, every man that we talked to because I was naive. I was afraid to have a child and still be a touring musician, but I still think I was shocked by my experience of, my booking agent basically like, Talked down to me for like 20 minutes about how hard it was gonna be for me and how worried he was gonna be For me to be out there with a baby like the most patronizing bullshit and was Very communicative and supportive to me beforehand, told me when I sign an artist, I sign them for life.
You're like a young Patty Griffin. And then literally I told him I was pregnant and he was like, Well, there goes the whole summer. And then stopped answering my emails for like two years until my manager and I forced his hand and we were just like, what the fuck? And then we parted ways.
but anyways, now that I'm progressively talking about it more. And more and more women are reaching, I just got a text from a woman yesterday, like an insanely talented guitar player who reached out to me and was like, Hey, I heard this happened to you. This happened to me too.
Wondering if we can like talk about it and figure out ways to share so it doesn't keep happening.
[00:11:41] Sean: Yeah, it's interesting, my experience couldn't be Any more different. Sorry to tell you. I'm happy to tell you. the team that I have they have kids They know that this is what i've always done and will continue to do and I will with my partner and with them, navigate the new dance that is Touring and making records and all that sort of stuff But no, I didn't have anybody stopped returning my phone calls when I said a baby was on the way
[00:12:07] Aaron: Mhm. Yeah, my experience, not even being a front person was that being a parent gives me more support. Yeah. Clout, more dignity. People treat me with more respect. They're like, Oh this is your work. You have to support a family.
[00:12:21] Sean: yeah, I think we get that
I'll give you an example. I said to elissa the other day. I was like I love When i'm like out in the world You know just me And silver sun and I was like, the way people treat you is just so much different She's like, well, that's probably because you're a man.
It's like these women are like holding the door for me. They're smiling at me They're like being chatty and I am that way with now I will stop i'm like the annoying guy that like stops people in the airport and i'm like What kind of stroller is that? Like I feel like i've leveled up into this, new space that is awesome, but it's sad and it surprises me a little bit because I think I still am naive and I think that we're further in ways than at times I, am shown that we are as far as how we treat one another. But I also haven't had, you know, I went on one two week tour since the baby's been born. At least from, what we have in our household. It's like, Alyssa supports and encourages me to go to work. Because one, we need to pay the bills. But also she knows that it's, what I need to do for my own mental, spiritual health.
So yeah it's felt good, but haven't had a new record since the baby has come and like trying to, figure all that out. So I'm, sure, there'll be things to navigate,
[00:13:34] Aaron: have you been able to write? Have you been able to create
[00:13:36] Sean: yeah,
[00:13:37] Michaela: because like you said, so much physical energy and mental energy and just time is now taken up by something else sometimes I feel like far away from, or I like question my abilities with music or ability to write.
And I'm like, Oh, it's just because I'm not sitting around thinking about it all day, every day, like I used to. So it's like a whole new re. Calibrating my own relationship to my work, which doesn't mean that it's worse, and in some ways it could be a lot better, maybe
[00:14:07] Sean: Yeah, but it's different, and so that's scary, I think. One, I would like to say, when I am going through periods where I'm not writing, I don't handle it well. Even though I would like to flip the script on writer's block by saying, something I've heard others say, which I agree with, is that we can't always be coming up with a tangible tune.
Maybe some people can, but you can't always be coming up with a tangible tune that you love every day. And that there are seasons of it where we're gathering without even knowing that we're gathering for then the kind of producing periods. However, when I'm going months without writing, I feel like something is terribly wrong.
I question my purpose because I have made this, the thing that has fed my heart and soul for as long as I can remember. And so when there's any kind of uncertainty or insecurity there, it troubles me greatly. Yet I continue to tell myself it has always come and it will continue to come.
But this is nothing new for me with having a family where I didn't write the first few months when I felt pressure that I should have created a masterful children's album by the time we got home from the hospital. I take an antidepressant now, and I'm like, when I'm not writing, it's because I shouldn't take that.
I've been in relationships where I'm not writing and it's like, I should blow up this relationship. But there's enough things in my life where through therapy and certain other things and getting, older and looking more inward at this stuff that I, I see that um, of creativity is, at least for me, is, seems to be the natural flow of it and that I can use any host of things to make me feel like that's getting in my way and then I create some sort of narrative that is troubling and upsetting.
Does that make sense?
[00:15:55] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. I'm wondering if you have noticed that also the other end that work true too, like where, You are doing something and you're going through a really creative period, whether it's you're on a bender or you meet this woman or whatever it is and you keep doing that to stay creative, the opposite end of that.
You know what I mean?
[00:16:18] Sean: Yeah, great. That's great. yes, I mean, it's no secret to anybody that knows me, and I'm not unique in this, even if you're not in like a, recovering addict of some sort, I think we all are addicts of some sort, and it's easy when something feels good or seems like it's working to continue to try to push that button to make it keep working, if that's what you mean.
Yes, I have with drugs and alcohol relationships. I'll go over there so that over there I'll feel inspired and I'll my life will be Great, and I'll write the song. So yeah, and I think The pandemic for me getting sober which happened right before the pandemic Blasting off into like family life there is I'm challenged by that every day, I want to go to New Orleans today, I want to go to California today, I want, it's snowing outside, and I don't want to drink today, thank goodness, but snow was a great, fun time to get fucked up.
So there's like all of these little, triggers that elicit the feeling of Oh, I want to do this thing and for people like us, I think a lot of that is wrapped into creating a song or getting into like, for me, out of my mind and into my heart more so that I'm like in touch with my creativity.
And when I'm more in my mind which I am often than in my heart, I feel very uncomfortable. And that's when I want to chase things and create things. I hope that sort of addresses the question.
[00:17:41] Aaron: Fully. you have things that you've found actions, whatever that help you move more to your heart when you realize that you've been stuck in your head cause like in my own experience, I would, drink or smoke 8, 000 doobies or something like that, so have you found more sustainable methods of moving more to your heart?
[00:17:59] Sean: makes sense that we would do that because when we find, a lot of us at an early age, that those things work for some of us. In my case, those things stopped working and started, really hurting me. And yes, I have found some things, then the game becomes finding the the discipline to do them.
I'm in a recovery program and have my meetings and a community there. And so that helps me a ton, not just with drinking and drugs, but helps me, feel expansive rather than constricted. And when I am feeling constricted, I have some tools just within that community. Just by talking to people about it, You know, talk about anxiety or depression or addiction or whatever it might be, which are things that a lot of us, our initial feeling when we're feeling those things isn't to pick up the phone and talk to somebody about it.
At least it isn't for me which then makes me feel kind of more suffocated. So by doing that, by going to the meetings, exercise, though I still don't do it daily when I do it, I feel good.
Yoga, when I do it, I feel good meditation. When I do it, I feel good how I eat. And then something that has been helping me as of late, but I could see it being another form of an addiction, which is, I'm hearing different kinds of music in my mind.
And maybe for the first time, having some opportunities to like play my, folky kind of songs that I write, but then also. try to do these different styles of music with different people which would have scared the shit out of me before just like my ego or something would have a hard time showing up in a room with say people i don't know that well to try to explore being creative
And so i've been doing some of that and that that has felt good So I feel turned on by that because right now I'm able to, You know, have a bit of like a creative burst.
But then, inevitably, when that spigot goes off for a while, then I'm just like uh, and kind of freak out. So, I've heard a lot of people write about it and talk about it, but it's, How do you work hard to live your dream, right? And if your dream is a painter or a chef, or in our case musicians, so much of our identity becomes that thing. So then when we're parents and when we're friends, and I've done a lot of those other things half assed hopefully not parents, but when we're I've just started, because I have been so consumed with the path of my musician identity. Then you reach a point where I don't want to not be a musician, but I want to peel away the layers of that identity that no longer serve me so that I can do it all better.
[00:20:35] Aaron: that idea of acting through your identity more than like through your integrity is something that comes up a lot on here. And I think it's really strong, I mean, especially being out there and being, in all essence, like a solo performer, even though you, have a band and you perform, not with your given name, how do you separate yourself as a human from the identity of this person that is, on
[00:20:58] Sean: you make, you make a lot of mistakes, probably. I think it's something I think about a lot over here is Maybe one spends half of their life. And maybe this one is me, building this sort of identity because that's what I felt I needed to do or that's was my passion and the next half breaking that identity down to explore things in this world that I didn't even think of that are beyond my, dreams up until this point.
But it's uncomfortable to do that, and I, I wouldn't say I, I know how to do that with ease, but I think that it's a noble pursuit.
[00:21:31] Michaela: And it's again, so interesting to me because it's kind of feeds into this idea that we have this concept of what a musician is, we grow up where our, creative artistic people and then we make it our entire lives. And also to get the things that we need to get to be able to sustain that as a business and our livelihood.
It feels like you have to sacrifice so much and just give it all over to that. And then, like you said, you can end up realizing, Oh, I'm not showing up in the other parts of my life that are also important because I'm elevating this thing over everything else. I think a lot of us, we have to varying levels, you know, like being on tour so much that you miss, family events or holidays or friends weddings just like not acting in the way in your integrity and hurting people because you're choosing yourself and your experiences over showing up for people you love or acting in the way that you.
I thought you would grow up to know how to act. And I think it's a really incredible thing when you can come back from that and explore it with empathy in yourself rather than with shame.
[00:22:38] Sean: Shame and kick yourself.
[00:22:40] Michaela: Yeah. And for me as a fan of music, that's the art that I love that gets to that level that gets to where you can tell that the
[00:22:50] Sean: Makes it a lot
[00:22:50] Michaela: is working on that self discovery with real self
[00:22:54] Sean: being an artist. Yes, and that, my friends, is being an artist of life, which is, the grooviest art that there is. Yeah, it's wild, I did, as a lot of us have like, I grew up on, on the road, I feel like there have been several lives in this one life at this point, and
already the new chapter, new life, if you will, feels like if I allow it to, it has so many more ways to be creative. With life itself, which I feel like I don't know about on a commercial level or business level, but will benefit me creatively in, in music and art.
[00:23:33] Michaela: Yeah, specifically being a parent, I didn't realize how much creativity it requires. When you're like, I have to figure out how to get this two year old to want to go to sleep. Like, I have to figure out how to get this two year old to sit down in this car seat and buckle up so we can go, rather than just you can't like.
Force them to do things and it takes so much imagination to be like what story can I tell her to get her to be into this and it's really, it's maddening and also incredibly fun,
[00:24:07] Sean: maddening and magical at the same time.
[00:24:10] Michaela: exactly. Yeah, and I
[00:24:11] Sean: not always at the same
[00:24:12] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:24:12] Sean: yeah.
[00:24:13] Michaela: of two things lot in parenting. One, our mutual beloved friend, Jeff Ratner.
I remember him being with us when I was pregnant. He was staying with us for several weeks and you know, he's not a parent, but he said to us, I don't know, I've been told that it's like more psychedelic than the best psychedelics. And I think
[00:24:34] Sean: that's true.
[00:24:35] Michaela: I think of that a lot. And then also, I remember being on tour one time and stopping at my cousin's place in Austin, Texas, and she had two kids.
And I remember telling her like, I don't know if I want kids. like, I'm too addicted. To the high of traveling and touring and like, falling in love with everybody. Cause I've always been someone, men and women, not necessarily like sexual romantic. I just love that experience of sharing secrets and all that stuff and like adventure.
And my cousin was like, Yeah, but Mikayla, being a parent, you have so many highs in that, like you will feel high from falling in love with your baby and the next phase of their life and I was like,
[00:25:17] Sean: so much
[00:25:17] Michaela: know, but now.
[00:25:19] Sean: like bullshit, but yes, and it's just, it's our perspective. And if we're lucky enough to be able to switch perspectives in this life, maybe even more than once or more than a hundred times, you see how much your world changes and I'm that same person that you're talking about.
I'm addicted to that and have been my, my whole life and that's a big part of who I am. I'm not looking for romantic or sexual connections in that way. But I think that there's an energy there that can be in the music or on stage or something like that.
But there's different ways of, expressing that kind of energy.
[00:25:56] Michaela: You're experiencing a whole new adventure by entering family life. And I Going back to what my cousin said, I didn't believe it, but I, I 100 percent have felt as high, if not higher, at seven in the morning, making coffee with Aaron and looking at our beautiful baby.
And like, again, that stuff can sound so cliche, but it is real.
[00:26:16] Sean: same here. And also. The pandemic like I said, I just stopped doing some things that I had been doing, to medicate myself. Then we had a pandemic and I was, forced to slow our role and, sit still something that I've always struggled with and feared and run from.
for me at that time, there was, it was a new concept of even finding an adventure in stillness because I never had to be still before. So now it's We got the dogs, we got the kids, we have each other, there's so much action going on. Again, I know it's, there will be challenges and I know I'm still new at this, but there has been so much adventure within this that I feel more fulfilled and fed, I would say a lot of my time running around looking for something with energy that was just freaking out. not that I feel that way every single day, but as a whole, I feel more that way.
[00:27:10] Aaron: Yeah, I've found a lot of gold in having this thing that forces me to look away from myself. Deprioritize myself. I've struggled with self esteem in my life. So I was never like, which you can argue in a way is a form of narcissism. but you know, I was never. One to just be so self serving in every situation and all of that, but I thought about myself all the time and thought about what my life was and what my career was and now I'm like forced, gladly to now prioritize this other life and it's so refreshing.
[00:27:42] Sean: With you more. I have a little bit of experience thinking about myself. And I've been self aware enough for a long time to know that that actually hurts. doesn't feel good. But yeah, like you guys were talking, we were talking earlier, there's a part of it where it's like, well, but I need to be driven to do this thing and to do it better and to do it bigger.
And then I think forced to by the, kids or just we reach a place in our life where it's like, hit you with another cliche, like less is more and sometimes energy is a real thing. It's not some like, hippie. New age concept. This is real shit. I believe that from my experience, when I'm focused on myself, all day and all night, usually the focus isn't productive and it's usually not kind. It's usually negative self talk and in a loop.
I remember when I was a kid, some like teacher or somebody said, which I like the idea, but they're like, you look like the kind of person that's got a lot going on up there. And I, and that made me feel good at the time. the little secret that I was holding was, there's not a lot going on up there.
It's just the same three fucking thoughts bouncing around all the time. And yeah, I struggle with that still. And I think exercise and medication and connecting with other human beings in a real genuine way, really helps with that. And then I think we're able to do more. And what we do is I think of higher quality or, or like of a higher calling because we're not, Things at a distance through, anxious and negative energy.
[00:29:08] Michaela: Yeah. I'm always curious about the relationship of using creativity as a type of therapy of like, we process our feelings and, synthesize experiences and thoughts through songwriting, for example. But then How much other emotional therapeutic work is actually necessary to be able to do that?
Um, And I feel like everybody kind of has a different experience with that of, Oh no, I use my art practice as a way to therapize myself, or actually I need a lot of other therapeutic practices in order to feel well enough to create. Do you have any sort
[00:29:49] Sean: Yeah.
[00:29:50] Michaela: relationship with
[00:29:51] Sean: I think the art itself is the best therapy. The identity stuff that we've been talking about. That kind of, you know, like the business and the drive for the career is the art and art and commerce, they don't dance that gracefully together and for good reason, they can if we're lucky, but, I want the art and the music to save me more than I would probably like to admit to myself for years. In that, I want that to be my cure. I want just to, I got feelings in me. I got a guitar. I'm going to get it out and it's going to feel so good. Which happens sometimes and it's wonderful, but can't happen all the time.
So do I do other therapies yeah,
Yeah.
And I didn't want to, because It seems so daunting, all of it. The recovery stuff, therapy. I'm like, this shit is gonna take forever. My whole life I've wanted somebody to sprinkle some magic powder on my head. Whether it be on a mountain in Nepal or in a back alley in downtown Los Angeles.
That would cure all the ailments. What has changed in my life. Perspective through going through it is that don't think that exists and, doing some of these modalities or these practices every day is the only thing that I have found that really helps and really helps like you were saying of, I need to do things every day to pull my head out of my ass. Cause my head just naturally goes up there
Uh huh. To pull it out and it doesn't just pop out on its own. So I don't always like that that's the case, but I'm no longer kind of haunted and like, And take it so hard that, I'm the kind of person that when I wake up in the morning, it takes me a little bit to pull the head from the ass, and to get out of my own head, to get out of my own thoughts. And so just trying to do some of the things which I do sometimes and I don't sometimes see the good and, on with the day.
[00:31:45] Aaron: In relation to you saying, you wanting, somebody to come and sprinkle dust, it just makes everything easier and just dauntingness of doing the work and approaching the work. I had a therapist one time share this metaphor with me, which I think applies.
So beautifully to lot of things he related doing the hard emotional work and looking at yourself. It was like, basically you're out there with a sledgehammer trying to break up this boulder and the sledgehammer is heavy and the rock is hard and it sucks and you're hitting it and you're hitting it and it feels like nothing's happening.
But every time you hit the rock, there's like little fissures that are happening and eventually like you're going to hit it. with the same strength doing the same thing that you've been doing for however long and this big chunk breaks off oh wow, and it's a big step and then you just keep going but the actual work of it is Such consistency.
Yeah, it's just just sticking to it until you're like, this is what I do
[00:32:36] Sean: this is what I do and I no longer dread it or feel like it's insurmountable because the point isn't anymore to reach the mountaintop by noon, which I had, a beautiful old Asian man one time tell me, like, you just want to reach the mountaintop. Yes, I do. But you're on the mountaintop and when you reach the next mountaintop, you'll just want to go to another mountaintop.
and then I embraced him and we made love. I mean, it sounds so silly but it, yeah, it's true. It's like there's been another new earth thing for me. The want for more is never enough and it's so fucking exhausting and self serving and and just like I think the three of us have probably if we could talk to our 10 year old selves or whatever Said these are the things that I want to do like we have achieved those things and Not that we should be patting ourselves on the back for the rest of our lives based on whatever those accomplishments were but like How much did we enjoy those things?
In my case, a lot. was like, okay, cool. I've gotten to this place. Now I got to get over there. that is a race that, I don't think one ever wins, so. it does feel good if we have chores that are sold out and we have records, with songs that people all over the place are singing, all that stuff does feel good.
And, I don't think there's a damn thing that's superficial about, having drive to get to those places, but when it becomes everything to us, that ain't worth that.
[00:34:02] Aaron: For sure. Constantly having that mantra in your head of, yeah, but,
[00:34:06] Sean: and then we have social media on the internet and we live in a town full of people that are doing wonderful things. And how easy is it for any of us to, look on there or hear about a friend or somebody that we don't know, but it's over there and they've been doing it for less time.
And, my band and I used to have a joke of like, we would have a band open for us. One summer, and then the next summer we'd pull up at the festival in our beat up, uh, Akano line van, and they had two buses. And we were happy for them, but of course there was a part of us that was like, Fuck these guys.
And, that's a battle too. It's you can be happy for, each other and also have the struggle within ourselves of well, is there something that I'm not doing right? , and I think we all can relate to that in some way.
[00:34:48] Michaela: I always do a little research before we, I have guests on no matter how long I've known them and like your resume is insane of all the festivals you've played, all the late night TV appearances, all the big name press.
And I'm always so curious because my mind is definitely shifted because I definitely used to adhere to the feeling of like, once I get to play this thing or once I get to sell out a show, then I'll feel. successful or happy or comfortable. And as I've gotten older and been like well, maybe I'm never going to do the one thing that I thought I did, or why is this the way that I think life is supposed to be built?
That I'm supposed to make a list of all the things I need to tick off. And also,
[00:35:32] Sean: good about ourselves.
[00:35:33] Michaela: yeah. And then even experiencing like. getting some of the things I dreamed about and then being like like you said how much did I enjoy it was I? Thinking about it was the festival my dreams But it wasn't on the stage or the slot that I wanted
[00:35:45] Sean: I didn't sing that song as well as I could have and should have or whatever.
[00:35:49] Michaela: Yeah, and we had Mary Chapin Carpenter on here and she's you know, 18 Grammy nominations quadruple platinum records and she was like That doesn't cure that stuff she was like no one gets everything they want in their life. No matter how Successful they look to the outside and people time and time again Like you said as well if you have an exciting life you get used to it so how have you like ridden the wave of getting all of The attention at different moments and getting things and what did that feel like?
And coming to terms with the ride of that
[00:36:23] Sean: The want for more is never enough. sometimes when it comes, you know, you look back and see it on paper, it looks a certain way and sometimes when it's happening I probably didn't even really realize that it was happening, or I was concerned with some other fear, or I really enjoyed it and it was great.
I had. A day not long ago where I was thinking a lot of myself and how I longed for something more as far as, where my music was that day or some kind of career thing. And lo and behold, I have a buddy who was going through a really hard time. And we got on the phone and he started to express to me everything that he was. Going through, and everything that he was going through sounded exactly like me talking to myself up until that point. And he said, but dude, the thing is, you can go this place and that place, and you have this many people that'll come and see you. And me, I have, I'm like, the thing is, brother, I was just having this fucking conversation with myself thinking about somebody else.
And so we play this game, And it's a tricky one because I think gets us every time. That said, I also wonder if a creative person, an artist, should ever feel, and I'm not promoting the idea of the miserable artists and you need to be, broken into a million pieces to create, though a lot of us have created from that place, I don't know that there isn't a part of the creative human that just is gonna feel unsatisfied or dissatisfied, that's part of it. See, I don't know if I mind that with the art part, the genuine part. I think I mind that with the ego, identity, career part, if that makes sense.
[00:38:02] Aaron: Yeah. Fully. I think That always wanting bigger, better, on whatever level that is, whether it's, I want to play bigger rooms or I want to make a better record and better is described as like getting closer to the ideal artistic vision that you had.
I think that's just ambition. And I think where the struggle, at least how I've identified it for myself is when There is no separation between that feeling and myself, where I identify as that feeling rather than this is a feeling that I am living with, and it's that relationship between myself and that feeling that determines whether being healthy
[00:38:37] Sean: and do you think that there's a way to separate those entirely?
[00:38:40] Aaron: I don't know, maybe that is the journey, is. Defining that gap, and that coexistence, I would say is def defining that.
[00:38:49] Michaela: And I think also like walking that tightrope of like, yeah, if you are a, artist who works to. Share your work with the public and also works to have that financially support your life, then you have to have those ambitions.
But I think it's the tightrope of like letting that drive you, but not rule you,
which is hard. I know anytime I get caught up in my head about Wanting more of the outside stuff, of wishing I had more recognition or more attention or whatever, that cripples me creatively. some people I think genuinely can be driven by that.
motivation but I am not. I have to feel like in my gratitude to feel secure and comfortable to try to create but I'm then driven by Wanting to like go deeper. But then obviously there's always ambition there because no matter how many times I get disappointed or knocked down, by the career stuff, it's only a matter of time before I'm like, I'm done.
I'm never doing anything again. And then a few months go by and I've got enough songs and we're going to make another record. Keep going.
[00:40:01] Sean: because we're live first.
[00:40:02] Michaela: yeah, and I think you ultimately also then decide, if I'm doing this for life, all that stuff of like ticket sales and festival bookings and attention, it's going to go up and down for the rest of my life.
So like, yes, it always feels good to have more. I'm probably always going to struggle with wanting more, but I'm also going to actively try to be in my practice of gratitude for just being able to be a part of any of it. That's been a. big shift for me this last year instead of going to a festival that I'm playing and Hoping that people will be at my set or whatever.
I've Consciously been like I'm just so glad to be in this community on any level, that's taken a lot of practice
[00:40:45] Sean: oh, absolutely. Some advice that somebody gave to me that I turned to some years ago, where I'd put out a record and there was a belief that this record was going to really change the trajectory of my career. The record did fine, but it didn't overnight change the trajectory of my career and I felt crushed by it.
And I called somebody that I know and trust here in town and I went and talked with him. And he was like, is this the last record that you're going to make? I was like, no, I don't know. Maybe, but I doubt it. He's like, well, you know, there's some songs on that record that you'll probably play for many years and people will know and love.
And then you're off to the next, it's like putting so much of our work. On this one fucking thing it goes against the natural Glow of it. Yeah, and there are business reasons that you know It's like we make a thing and then there's obviously months that you have to wait until the thing comes So it's not even brand new And you're touring on it. But yeah, it's I tell myself every single time enjoy this ride. Whatever comes from it. Don't put the weight of the world on you because of how it's received when it comes out. And just keep writing. And I find that when I am in tune within myself, creatively, And with the people in my life and with myself, I'm less crazy for the validation. It's when I'm a little mixed up and I can get a little mixed up pretty easily. when I'm sort of mixed up on the inside, that's when my mind goes to, wanting some sort of recognition or, or award.
And I want everybody to know how wonderful I am. And that feels. A lot like it used to feel when I was desperate to get a bottle, or a drug, or somebody to hold my hand. It doesn't feel good.
[00:42:33] Michaela: we talk about this a lot on here of like when we need validation and love like checking in with ourselves about where should I be looking for that? am I opening Instagram, like, looking for that fulfillment from how many likes and comments am I looking for it from, a great press review?
Like, Are those things actually gonna fill me with feelings of validation? No. to me, it's a sugar rush every time and there's a
[00:43:00] Sean: quick hits.
then you just scroll down to see your friends getting more. And you're like, Whoa!
[00:43:06] Michaela: Yeah. wrong with me?
But even more than just looking within myself I have found it helpful to be like, who do I want real love and validation from? I want it from my partner because it's a reciprocal, partnership that we love each other and support each other, I want to feel that with my child, with my parents, with my friends, because I'm a good friend.
Like having to really go back to the basics thousands of people clapping for me it's going to feel really good for a moment.
[00:43:34] Sean: and I think what you're talking about, bringing it back to the basics, the ancient stuff, and then the idea of music, For our family, to be brought together, which Nashville still has in my opinion, you can come together and play music on a fucking porch or in the living room or something like that.
And I think treating it the way that it's sort of meant to be like as a community, an uplifting. Spiritual, if I may, practice of togetherness and connectivity. That's where I get, more of a sustainable good feeling. And sure, there's going to be time where I go out on my next tour and I'm going to promote it and I'm going to care how many people are there.
And that's, I think only natural, but like you were saying, there's that ambition. And let it drive us, but don't let it own us, and then if there isn't, as many people as we hoped for, you know, at the Nashville show, it doesn't mean that we're, pieces poop. Yeah.
[00:44:29] Aaron: of this show that there's so much of this business that is outside of our control, and, that feels to me, it's like, oh, well, you're kind of, like, helpless, but at the same time, it kind of lets you off the hook, because, like, if nobody shows up, it's outside of your control.
It's not because they don't like you
[00:44:43] Sean: Yes. And anybody that's been doing this thing for a little while has had that, maybe we'll have it again.
[00:44:49] Aaron: How many times have you been pulling out of Chicago and you get a DM from somebody that's like, Man, when are you coming to Chicago? And you're like,
[00:44:54] Sean: yeah.
[00:44:56] Aaron: Yeah, cool. Yeah.
[00:44:57] Michaela: There's a million reasons why people don't come to shows. It's not solely because they don't know or like you.
[00:45:04] Sean: Yes, but that is where our minds take us,
[00:45:07] Aaron: Yes. Yeah.
[00:45:08] Sean: I think that music is something that, that saves us and, is so great for the human animal and the human condition, and I think that the business of music is an abusive relationship, and one has to work on themselves make it less of an abusive relationship. Because if any of us have, artists and musicians for the most part are very sensitive people, which is why we do and are able to do what we do. leaning on the applause and the validation For our own self esteem, which is something I have certainly done and still do, if I'm being honest. it ain't going to give us the sustainable self esteem that I think that we want in our lives. And things like our families, and making art and music from the right, real, raw place. And absolutely gratitude, I think that there's a reason that that's in. Probably all of religions and of any sort of wise teachings, Gratitude is, is worth that.
[00:46:02] Aaron: Absolutely. And that's such a beautiful kind of sentiment to wrap this whole thing up on.
[00:46:07] Sean: I am grateful to have seen you two today,
[00:46:09] Aaron: likewise.
[00:46:10] Sean: speak with you guys. You look beautiful. Um,
[00:46:16] Michaela: Time and thank Alyssa for us as well, please.
[00:46:19] Sean: Okay, I hope that record making is fruitful. I hope that ambition only drives you to the fruitfulness and, uh, all that sort of shit.
[00:46:28] Aaron: Yes. Thank you. Amazing. All right, Sean. Take care, man. See ya. Bye.
[00:46:33] Sean: Bye.