Lilly Hiatt has released 5+ records via New West Records, has toured with Drive by Truckers, Margo Price, Aaron Lee Tasjan, has been nominated for Americana Association awards, and is the daughter of singer/songwriter John Hiatt. We talk to Lilly about learning to care about things outside of your career, protecting your inner knowing, deleting your instagram account at 20k followers and staying off of it, not paying attention to numbers, lessons learned from watching her father's career up close her whole life, and a whole lot more.
Lilly Hiatt has released 5+ records via New West Records, has toured with Drive by Truckers, Margo Price, Aaron Lee Tasjan, has been nominated for Americana Association awards, and is the daughter of singer/songwriter John Hiatt. We talk to Lilly about learning to care about things outside of your career, protecting your inner knowing, deleting your instagram account at 20k followers and staying off of it, not paying attention to numbers, lessons learned from watching her father's career up close her whole life, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and we are in our second year of the podcast. So glad to still be here, and so thankful you are here listening.
[00:00:20] Aaron: real quick before we jump into today's episode, we have a few gentle asks for you guys.
One is, We have started a Patreon community. So if you'd like to support this podcast directly and help us cover the expenses of producing even a small show like ours, we have that below in the show notes and has all the normal Patreon things, a little bit of community, and it's growing all the time.
So if you're interested, just take a quick click below. Secondly, would be to please subscribe or follow on whatever platform you listen on. It does just the little tiniest bit with the meager algorithm of podcasts to open our show to new audiences. And the more people we get to listen, the more guests we have and the more ideas we can share back with you guys.
So with that you chances are you found out about this show outside of the algorithm and however you found out about this show If you could just take a second to share your favorite episode in that same way Post it to social media throw it on the van, whatever you could I'm sure there is a friend of yours that doesn't know what we do They could really benefit from these conversations and we'd love to meet them.
[00:01:23] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on in this podcast is that we are not music journalists. We are musicians ourselves. So we don't think of this as an interview per se, but rather a conversation. We're not promoting anything. We are attempting to pull the curtain back a little bit and have honest, vulnerable conversations about the realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art.
[00:01:48] Aaron: And what that is, is to live in a constant state of things being outside of our control. And so we like to focus our conversations on what is within our control. Being our mindsets, our tools, our routines, habits, whatever it might be. With the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And today, we got to have that conversation with our longtime friend, Lily Hyatt.
[00:02:12] Michaela: Lily Hyatt is an incredible musician and singer songwriter. We've known her for about a decade here in Nashville, and she has had such an interesting career and journey. She also is the daughter of the renowned singer songwriter, John Hyatt. So she has such a unique perspective growing up, witnessing someone build a career in a very different time mind you.
But she's put out many records over the last several years with indie label deals on her own. made records with Michael Trent from Shovels and Rope. She's toured with Aaron Lee Tazjan, John Moorland, Drive By Truckers, Margo Price.
[00:02:46] Aaron: Yeah, we get into a lot of really wholesome things, it feels with Lily. We maybe talk about the pandemic more in this episode than we have in the previous 69 episodes and in a great way and with a lot of sense of gratitude, a lot of sense of using hardship and struggle and like difficult times, accepting them and growing from them, which if you've listened to this podcast before, you know, I love talking about that.
And apparently Lily does too. And so that's a theme that runs out through this whole thing. Lily deleted her Instagram account at over 20, 000 followers was off Instagram for a year and started a brand new one and loved it.
And so she talks about the decision making process behind that, the experience of that promoting tours without that massive tool, we get into a whole bunch of things with the general underpinning of. Focusing on quality over quantity. so with that, here's our conversation with Lilly Hyatt.
[00:03:42] Lilly: thank you for being here and Just to start off like where are you today?
[00:03:47] Michaela: Are you home in Nashville? And what's kind of going on in life right now for you?
[00:03:51] Lilly: I'm home in Goodlettsville, where I live with my husband and my dog. They just took an errand to take recycling. They might be back soon. So you might see a dog running around he really loves to have my attention and my husband's, but anyway, but he's a good dog, so doing that, like everyone else, just, Managing various things, have some musical things, have some work stuff, and just trying to keep on top of it.
And not, drop the ball any one place. So that's where I'm at. But overall, things have been cool,
[00:04:26] Aaron: Have you been in Goodlettsville for a while?
[00:04:28] Lilly: we just moved here about a year ago. We bought our first house out here last August. So we're still kind of new to it, where are y'all located?
[00:04:37] Aaron: Pretty much exact opposite of you. Percy Priest is like a half mile away.
[00:04:42] Lilly: That's a nice area. We looked at houses around there There are a lot of really cool neighborhoods surrounding Nashville or outside of the, central part of it.
[00:04:51] Aaron:
we bought in a hurry. We were renting and we were on tour in California, the landlord's like,
I'm going to move back into the house. And we're like, Oh no. And I was like trying to call him like, man, like we'll buy the house from you, name a price like trying to, and he just wouldn't respond.
And so we had like basically one day to look at houses and we looked at like 12 houses and Saw this one and put in an offer and they accepted it like immediately. And we're like, cool.
[00:05:13] Lilly: where are we moving? All
what house is it?
[00:05:17] Aaron: Yeah.we just knew that it was close to the lake. We're like, great. The lake is like right there.
Perfect.
[00:05:21] Michaela: Yeah. And we were definitely like,
we've been here now eight years and we're like,
[00:05:25] Lilly: Oh, cool.
[00:05:26] Michaela: would definitely do things a little differently next time around. But we're also super lucky. We got in the housing market at all. So it's
[00:05:35] Lilly: that's awesome. And sometimes that's just the best way to do things, just jumping in. But one day, that's impressive that y'all made that happen.
Yeah It took us a few months. And I felt like that was quick, you know? I was like, wow, we did it. But One day, dang.
[00:05:51] Aaron: impressive is such a sunny way to look at it. Yeah, it's short sighted and
[00:05:57] Lilly: Yeah Best is when it's just like, oh, shit. Like, You've got to figure this out now. And then it's like, you just do. But then sometimes I'm like, is that the best? Like, Is that when I do my best? I've never found a house in one day. I would say that's something to feel very good about, there's a lot of rejection involved in the housing market,
[00:06:24] Michaela: I kind of hate The whole like, everything happens for a reason mentality, but at
[00:06:29] Lilly: I feel that,
[00:06:30] Michaela: my mom had a massive stroke three years ago And so her circumstances are very difficult. and she is constantly like What is is meant to be and
everything happens for a reason and I'm always like mom that annoys me.
She's
You're like mom.But she's like from a spiritual
perspective. I have to believe that if I go down that route, I'm like we are where we are because we're meant to be. And if we don't love our circumstances, if I believe that, how do I look around and think about like, why am I meant to be here right now?
What could I be learning from this rather than just digging my heels in to be miserable, which I also like to do a lot.
[00:07:07] Lilly: Oh, totally.
[00:07:08] Michaela: challenge I think is helpful of like, for some reason we were meant to buy this house in this neighborhood because it happened so quick and easy. And what are the lessons to learn from all of
this?
[00:07:22] Lilly: No, I hear you. And yeah, I think that's a good way to look at things. And that's cool that that's the stance your mom takes. Cause When I see somebody that's gone through like a massive life change like that, believing that way, I'm like there's a lot to be said for that mentality, you know,
Yeah. so good for her for like, finding that, I hope she's doing okay.
That will be,
yeah.
[00:07:45] Michaela: yeah. She keeps, getting better
[00:07:46] Lilly: Good,
[00:07:47] Aaron: it's the, being forced to look at what you can control,
[00:07:52] Lilly: Totally.
[00:07:53] Aaron: well, I can't control, like my mindset,
my viewpoint. You got to make hay while the sun shines basically.
[00:07:59] Lilly: absolutely. it is so true and kind of a liberating realization to like a mental spiral. It's like, oh wait, what can I like do right now? Even I feel like the simplest things that like can be controlled for me, they alleviate the tension or something of the whole thing, whatever the whole thing is, like anybody, I worry all the time, I think a lot of us do.
Do you know, it's like, how do you be an adult and not worry all the time? You know, there are a lot of very real things in life. but yeah, the control thing is huge,
[00:08:33] Aaron: have things whether it's like habits or tools or anything that you've found that help with your worrying definitely being self employed. There's a ton of things to worry about in that in itself
[00:08:44] Lilly: there totally are, I've sought help from so many people, including, working, in. situations where it's not, you know, my thing, I'm always going to have my thing in my business and give my all to it, but I also like to be there for others and whatever that means, whether it's a job or assisting my family, it's funny. Cause when I'm freaking out, it's not in my nature to be like, I know, go help other people. I'm like, no, I'm going to sit in this and obsess over it. But I'm slowly finding, cause I'm slow to find out a lot of times about simple, you know, you know what I mean? where you're like, what am I doing? Like, But it's simple as like getting out of my space and into a communal space or like anything. That's one way, but that takes more effort. A simple way when I'm alone is like lifting weights or doing crunches or I read a lot various things like little meditations and
movement, Movement is huge for me. Like a hike exercise. Oh, my whole mind will change where I'm like, Oh, I see it different, but I have to force myself to do that rather than sit and drink coffee, I want to just pour other things on top of the anxiety that make it worse.
why is that an inclination?I want to like
do all the wrong things.
Yeah.
[00:10:08] Aaron: I can sympathize with that and relate to that If I'm feeling down, I'm like I'll just drink more coffee because that'll get me. That'll work. I'll just push my way through this, you know, or, well, I have a bunch of work I need to do. I'll just go and do that.
And that'll distract me. And it never really does.
[00:10:23] Michaela: I think sometimes there's like,
this idea, what I've started to pinpoint is that I'll start to feel anxious and worry and I'll have like a physical response. And then my mind will be like, What's making you anxious? Let's start searching.
And searching for evidence of like why I'm right to be anxious and worried.
[00:10:42] Lilly: Oh yeah. Yeah. I get that. I do that too. I let it snowball.I feel very fortunate to have a partner that can tell me for anybody, like a good friend, any person you trust that can be like, you're doing that thing, you know, this is not real, Cause I do that too. When Kayla, I'm like, I'm going to investigate until this blows into something huge,
[00:11:03] Aaron: what I observe of that is like it kind of becomes a tornado
[00:11:07] Lilly: Yeah.
[00:11:07] Aaron: like it really like puts the physicality into like the spin because like
[00:11:10] Lilly: Yeah, Yeah,
start like attracting things you're like oh wait what about that that's not right totally, see it work for you too doing what lily was saying about basically just throwing a stick into the spokes and like going
[00:11:21] Aaron: for a swim or something you got to just kind of you get your head above water enough that you can be like, ah, and like pull the parachute for a second.
[00:11:28] Michaela: physical movement is such a strong part of that. I feel like reminding yourself okay, I'm here. This is my body. This is my life rather than just living in my brain.
[00:11:39] Lilly: Totally
[00:11:40] Michaela: And I do feel like this particular career of all the ups and downs of being a freelancer, trying to provide for yourself so that your basic needs are met, but also like be creatively fulfilled.
It's just a unique. set of challenges that can feed that. we've known you or, known of you since we moved to town. So like 10 years now
[00:11:59] Lilly: I remember meeting you guys
[00:12:01] Michaela: Yeah. A
[00:12:02] Lilly: like, do y'all know each other? Y'all were like, that
was,
really cute.
[00:12:08] Aaron: was fresh then too.
[00:12:09] Lilly: Yeah. Y'all were like newly married.
[00:12:11] Michaela: Yeah. But I feel like 10 years into this town. It's cool to see a lot of our community and peer group. We've all gone through such different journeys with our careers and some of us are more intimate with each other and some of us are just kind of watching from afar and from afar I've observed you doing some deep diving, soul looking.
And I'm curious if that's accurate and what that's been like for you on your path of evolving through your, career trajectory.
[00:12:41] Lilly:
We never know what other people are thinking of us. but that is accurate. I feel the same towards y'all. I'm like, it's cool to see the shifts and people evolve and try different things, you know, cause it's like, we have to, we're growing up, but yeah, I have done that.
And
[00:12:56] Aaron:
[00:12:56] Lilly: As y'all all know, we went through 2020. That was a really hard year. When I look back in ways, there are things about it personally that did become peaceful for me, just due to circumstances. I think for me that, A shift happened, but then I was a little disturbed for a while with myself because I just felt like all my belief had just gone away But I had a new situation that I believed in like I found my partner and a lot changed like it did for everybody and had a few years of just needing to Learn a bit more about how to be a person in the world and give a damn about things outside of my music career.
while feeding that to. one thing I did for a while was just feel really pulled back and not want to share anything with anybody. And I had a record come out. I didn't feel like promoting. I toured
I did some interviews and stuff, but I was felt just shy about saying anything in an interview opening up to anybody, and very dark about that for a bit. And now I don't feel like that. But it's taken just some like, healing. We all have stuff and it's a constant life journey for me to work on that stuff, but there were some things that I just needed to face head on about my own crap and just look it in the eye and move through it.
[00:14:22] Aaron: before I felt like I could. Get back into a space of feeling good around people, basically. So pulled back for a bit there, you know, like it's 2020 through 2022 were kind of weird, is how I see it. I see that for sure. I mean, We had massive changes, just life happening, being the pandemic and having a kid and what
[00:14:42] Lilly: Oh my gosh,
[00:14:43] Aaron: her family situation and
[00:14:44] Lilly: you guys.
[00:14:45] Aaron: has been a monumental shift to me. What messed with my head more was actually 2021.
Instead
of 2020, 2020 was to me like, so yes, it was shocking, but there was like, it felt much more like everybody was going through this together.
[00:15:02] Lilly: Yeah,
[00:15:03] Aaron: I mean? Everybody's like, wow, this is crazy. I, you know, granted the first like three months people are like, Oh, it's just going to be a couple months and we'll be back at it.
[00:15:10] Lilly: I know
[00:15:11] Aaron: then like when it got into like 2021. And really things were still not normal, even though people were on the road a little bit more, it was no semblance of normalcy,
you know, like
attendance at shows or, having to get tested before you walk in a venue or being a week away from a tour and be like, is this going to happen?
Is somebody going to get COVID
and we have to cancel like whatever it was.
2021 was the kind of subliminal subconscious grueling year for me That like really like set me back. you had mentioned there were some things in pulling back for you that were like actually blessings in disguise peaceful changes which I see that too The gold in the struggle for sure.
[00:15:49] Lilly: Y'all have been through so much and That's really impressive to like come through it with that kind of mindset, cause life can get really brutal sometimes, you know, when 2021 was a weird, it was a very kind of lonely year, I think 2020 was too, but it was so shocking.
I don't know. I
can't sum it up for it, you know, but like, I know exactly what you mean about 2021. It was harrowing in its own way.
[00:16:15] Aaron: in my mind I wonder how it will look 10 years from now, if you look at it, like pre pandemic and post pandemic You
[00:16:22] Lilly: Right.
[00:16:22] Aaron: kind of like twisted.
[00:16:23] Lilly: Absolutely.
[00:16:24] Aaron: was like the entering in it. So there's still some, remnants, shine, goo left from like 2019 and previous.
And 2022 was like things were starting to open up again and return to like more normal
2021 was like the shift It's like people
[00:16:39] Michaela: figuring out how do we come back together in this new way?
It's
[00:16:43] Aaron: like oh, this is different
[00:16:44] Lilly: Absolutely, it is.
[00:16:46] Michaela: because like you said everyone had different experiences like I have a sharp Before the pandemic and after the pandemic because of also all the other different stuff that happened in our life But our lives drastically different before the pandemic unrecognizable in a lot of ways
[00:17:04] Lilly: Like, how so,
[00:17:05] Michaela: I mean one parenthood bringing a child into the
[00:17:07] Lilly: Of course. Of course, that, yes.
[00:17:09] Michaela: my mom was a very big part of my life and our life. She was
very like physically present. So that loss of her changed me, changed our family dynamic. But then I feel like the reverberating impact was also before that.
We were in our early thirties, he was just a touring drummer back then and
he was on his verge of shifting. Now he's a producer and lives and work not lives.
Lives and works in this recording studio and makes music for TV and
his priorities are different his, everything is different. And I was very gung ho about my music career. I was
just like, I will do whatever I need to do
to
try Generate success in my music career and the pandemic all the life things that happened, hence, this podcast has really made me do a lot of investigative like, is this healthy?
[00:18:04] Lilly: Yeah.Haha.
[00:18:06] Michaela: I want to spend this one life? How does this impact my, brain and my. emotional well being. Am I able to be a good friend? Are my friends good friends?
[00:18:19] Lilly: yeah, like you said, you
[00:18:20] Michaela: pulled back like, and wanted to try and figure out how to give a shit about things other than your music career. And I think that's very real and honest. And I think it's really brave. A lot of us can keep struggling and feel like something's off, but feel like we have to keep going for survival to keep promoting and making and putting out there.
So to pull back takes a lot of courage to be like, you know what? I need to take some time away, which this industry basically tells you is career suicide to take any time away.
to say like, I need to get right with myself. That takes a lot of courage.
[00:18:57] Lilly: that is a cool, sunny way to look at it too, you know? and I, hear you, everything you're saying, and I feel like, I don't It totally can be done in that you can have a music career and do your thing, but also be available to be a family person.
And that, I mean, I also know that living the life of a troubadour, uh, anybody trying to push their own songs. involves sacrifice and sometimes it doesn't look pretty to other people and it can be painful because you're like, I'm not trying to be a piece of shit. You have to be focused, but that being said, on the other side of that, it's like, we get to decide for ourselves. I would like to be a good wife right now and not just be like fixating on my own, you know, and there's no right or wrong.
So we have to decide what matters to us and then go from there, you know, and I feel like at this junction, like being 40, That's what's going to feed my songs. If I don't do that, I write the same songs you know, I have nothing to say if I'm not growing the rest of my life, it is hard. Cause I know how driven both of you guys are and I am too, but my people around me matter and I'm not trying to get famous at any cost. Do you know what I mean? Like but to do well in my life, we all do, everybody does
just curious because you have such a different perspective than like the two of us, for instance, Aaron's parents were carpenter and nurse. My dad is a military man and my mom was a stay at home mom, but you grew up with a working professional musician, who is seen as very successful.
[00:20:39] Michaela: Can you speak a little bit about how that kind of informed your path?
[00:20:43] Lilly: that's really cool. I love hearing about people's families and what parents do, because it's just like, cool. Like, That's where you come from. And so thank you for telling me about your folks and, uh, I mean, with my dad like, I guess it gave me the sense of like, this can be done, but also saw this, sacrifice involved too, we all know what we've all toured you know, the deep elation you can get out there, but also pain of missing somebody so much, you know, I think him a lot.
I'm like, he had, three kids and. loves my mom, it couldn't have been easy all the time, but he had to do what he had to do and gave us a really good life through doing that, but he kept it together. You know, My dad's been sober my whole life.
He's been really present. So even when he was gone, he was present in a way I felt always. So,
but you know, Yeah, it was cool. I also, something cool that I saw about that, I think that helped me is he had ups and downs. He had labels be like, we're not working with you anymore. He had to shift management.
He had to do a bunch of things. It was never just a straight series of like, thumbs up to this guy. That's how he got where he got everybody saying yes. So I knew he fought for it, so that's helped me in terms of like, The rejection. I'm just like well, then you gotta try somebody else, you know,
like if this person doesn't like you because he did that.
He did pretty good. So that's about how I feel about that.
[00:22:14] Aaron: Yeah. I think that's an important thing to be able to absorb, to fight for it and, you
[00:22:19] Lilly: you do. Yes. Yes,
totally.
[00:22:23] Michaela: And that it gives you a perspective that like, a rejection or multiple rejections is not the deciding factor of your career or your worth,
you saw the insight of like, well, he got rejected numerous times, but he got yeses over here and he wouldn't have had those yeses if he had let those rejections inform what he felt about his path.
[00:22:45] Lilly: Totally.
[00:22:46] Michaela: So I think that's really important because that's hard even if we like intellectually tell ourselves that. It's really hard to believe that for ourselves.
[00:22:54] Lilly: It is so hard to believe that. And I feel so empowered talking to my friends like you guys, you know, where it's just like, Oh, we have all felt that way. And I don't look at you that way. If somebody else has said, no, I don't want what you are laying down. That's not how my friends. You know, Are looking at me.
So I feel a lot of value in the communal conversation about this. we all can't base our self worth off that. We all know that people are getting plucked off Tik TOK, to get famous. And that doesn't mean they're bad or good or better.
It just, that's a different thing. And. I got to believe in what I'm doing and
[00:23:31] Aaron: for me, being seen by my friends and peers and especially being in this town where like most of friends are in this business and do the same thing. it is reassuring,
seeing No matter how close you are to somebody You're not going to see like the day to day failures,
[00:23:49] Lilly: absolutely. We're not putting that on Instagram. Like my, me crying alone. Like, like I don't believe in myself.
[00:23:56] Aaron: Exactly. You know, like, in your own life, obviously you see every crack, you see every bump, In my experience, that's like really fertile ground for a shame spiral why me? Why Is it like this? Like, why is it so hard? And so being seen by friends that know failure and them just being like,
I feel that too. I have that same experience. I've had this is just like fulfilling and really kind of, reinforcing
like, cool, this is normal.
[00:24:20] Michaela: we judge ourselves
so much more harshly than anybody out there is probably judging us or even thinking about us. And I have to remind myself that I know so many friends who I think are incredibly talented musicians and great songwriters and have been through the whole industry gamut and have had record deals and been dropped and big agents and been dropped and whatever and I've never thought Wow, they suck I've never thought that
[00:24:48] Lilly: Right. Exactly. You're never like, I see why You're
like, you're kidding me. You're so good,
[00:24:55] Michaela: what like, again, why we started this. I just had a friend text me the other day that she had coffee with another friend who was going through some troubles with the, label distribution thing. And she was like, go listen to the other 22 hours episodes with Aaron Lee Tashin and Andrew Combs.
Cause
[00:25:10] Lilly: I love them both. They've been,
[00:25:12] Michaela: great. And they
[00:25:14] Lilly: they are great.
[00:25:15] Michaela: challenges with industry stuff too because that's what this game is and I've been kind of rethinking my whole approach to how I want to put out music and I actually
[00:25:25] Lilly: just got out of my record deal intentionally. And I had all these mixed feelings about it.
[00:25:31] Michaela: Like, Am I crazy? And then I was like, who are some of my friends who I admire and respect so much and who have just intentionally been independent all the way. I'm calling them. I call
like Maya DeVitri, Joe
Pug and like,
That community and that reinforcement and the generosity of hell yes, you can do this.
And this is why this is empowering and sharing of information. And like, this is my experience with this. That is what we have to keep focusing on whenever we put our stock in what label is giving us attention, what our numbers are, whatever. It's like the beauty of our community that we build together.
And that we're not actually judging each other, even though sometimes we think we really are.
[00:26:16] Lilly: It's likeright, exactly. That's the thing I try to explain about Nashville, sometimes people are like, Oh, I hear it's really competitive there. And I'm like, it is, but like in a really cool way, like guess everybody's take is different. I don't even see it so much as competitive.
I more see it makes me competitive with myself to be here. Cause I'm like, everybody's good. I better stay good not even that. I think I'm good. I better keep up on my game and get better, you know? cause. there are a lot of people that want to see other people do well here.
Cause that means if you can do well, maybe I can do well, we can do all do well you just root for people, you
[00:26:54] Michaela: I've also been really loving this uh, age we're 38.
I feel like it's so different than when we were 28, where there was so much frenetic energy in all of us of what do I got to do to try and like solidify my path as a musician?
And I think this age everyone's been through it enough and been like, things look different than I maybe hoped they would look. But there's like a learning and a deepening of what. Life is about that brings a little bit of knowledge and wisdom they can bring to these conversations and like Serenity,
[00:27:27] Lilly: That's a good word. Serenity is a big one. I totally know what you mean. And you know, I have friends and I'm sure y'all do too. It's like, I have friends all ages. have some really good friends in their late twenties. I have some friends that are just young as hell. They're like 22 and they're, so sweet and cool.
And late 20s are a pivotal point in life, I feel, and I remember them well. And I admire that kind of time period. And that being said, I'm so glad to be in this time period as well. it is, like you said, there's some sort of peace that's come.
I'm still chaotic AF, in my own way. But for all the kind of insecurity that's come with aging for me, on the flip side, come a weird confidence where I'm like well, There's an acceptance that helps me not be complacent, but just be like, peaceful and be like, okay, you're going to have to kind of see things clear for what they are.
Dream your dreams, go for them, keep your feet on the ground. do y'all feel that you're 38? That's a cool time. I loved being 38
[00:28:35] Aaron: yeah,
[00:28:36] Lilly: 40 year old. I'll say
[00:28:37] Aaron: yeah, it's a way back then.
[00:28:39] Lilly: I'm like when I was
[00:28:40] Aaron: 38, it's cool though.
No, I hear what you're saying. And, in my experience is more like, I have seen enough different situations, enough like curve balls, enough things that I'm like, this is it. It's happening. you know, Here's the finish line. It's going to be smooth after
[00:28:57] Lilly: and then it's not, you know, then the
And you're like, oh, right.
[00:29:00] Michaela: us were like, 2020 is our year. Oh
[00:29:03] Aaron: yeah.
[00:29:03] Lilly: So
many of us.
[00:29:05] Aaron: that was Michaela at 6am on New Year's Day on the, on 2020, you're like, this is it. We're at somebody else's house, most of which are asleep, I'm like, dude, we gotta go.
[00:29:15] Michaela: Yeah, I was partying hard bringing in 2020, feeling like this was the year.
Yeah.
[00:29:20] Lilly: you just didn't know what that meant yet,
[00:29:22] Aaron: but that's exactly it,
It's a lot of that, I had my hopes I'm like, this is gonna be awesome and then like just soul crushing defeat I guess failure I'll put in bunny ears because like I used to be really afraid of failure which were like holding me back and Now I love it because Inevitably, I learned Maybe 2020 was our year and 10 years from now, we'll look back and be like, that kind of saved me that like mentality change this conversation, like the phrase that has been ringing over and over in my head that I've heard us all allude to is, quality over quantity,
[00:29:50] Lilly: All of these big deal.
[00:29:52] Aaron: spending our time more nicely
this is blowing my mind
[00:29:55] Lilly: I'm, like 2020 was my year.
[00:29:58] Michaela: Yeah, see
[00:29:59] Lilly: well, I thought 2020 was like I was gonna be touring non stop. I had a big booking agent. I had european agent had all these tours and festivals booked the whole year and instead I spent the whole year in my house But like I think back on the first part of the pandemic and I was like, that was such a beautiful time it was the first time I was home that long.
[00:30:20] Michaela: And it was the first time I like saw things bloom in the spring. And it was the
first time I just Went to the lake regularly. It's the first
time I learned how to mountain bike and we went on this epic trip. I felt like we became like best friends in that time I got
pregnant, There's all this beauty and
I mean,that completely changed me.
And it's just not in the way that I thought it was going to be. And maybe if it had gone the way I thought, where I was touring non stop, I would have become a maniac and we would have gotten divorced.
[00:30:47] Lilly: that is so great that you were able to see that. I think back to that too, and I'm like, I've been a nice person most of my life. I've have my shitty parts, but like overall, but I kind of looked back to me pre 2020 and I'm like, I kind of I was all about love my family and friends, but I really just couldn't see outside of tunnel vision, my stuff. And I still kind of have that side of me. Cause we have to, to. Be drive our thing. you know, I look back to 2020 and I'm like a lot of shifts occurred what I wanted didn't happen But it led me to my husband and we live in a house together now It led me to my dog all this love came into my life that I hadn't really had time to nurture had it gone the way I wanted, so I feel, yeah.
[00:31:33] Aaron: as much as it sucks to. live through those moments I'm talking things that like maybe aren't as large as like a massive pandemic that ends the industry that you are using for your sustenance. But like
[00:31:47] Lilly: right. whatever that might be, like
maybe you get dropped by somebody on your team that you think is going to be the savior or You love your guitar player and your guitar player leaves your band for a
[00:31:58] Aaron: bigger gig Or whatever,
[00:32:00] Lilly: yeah, you're like, what am I going to do?
Yeah,
[00:32:02] Aaron: maybe the guitar player like sings harmonies too. So you're like, great. I don't have somebody to sing with and I don't have a, lead guitar player. Like, What am I going to do? And then you find somebody that not only completely fills the role, but is so inspiring and it changes, you know, the music that you create and like all of that.
being able to understand in the moment and had the experience having lived through many of these moments to know that like, yeah, this failure sucks, but it's going to pass. And
there will be gold on the other side that comes from this, that I didn't see. I had a person I guess it was like early 2018.
some guy from Smyrna came and was fixing our HVAC he saw my wedding ring and he was talking, he's like, me and my wife have been together for 60 years and you're talking about that and he's like, it's a good thing they make it out of metal because you got to melt metal down to like form it and all of that.
And he's like, You know, nothing becomes strong without going through the fire basically. I'm paraphrasing what he said and I was like,
[00:32:53] Lilly: You're like, Whoa,
[00:32:54] Aaron: He's like, you know, you need to have fire You need to like break it all down and melt everything down to make it strong and resilient and beautiful.
[00:33:01] Lilly: I love that.
[00:33:02] Aaron: who are you? Mr. H back man
[00:33:04] Lilly: That's beautiful, and that's the beauty of being around people, too! They just say things that you're like, that's gonna stick with me my whole life. Thanks! And you never know where it's gonna come from, and this is a little like that, but Just to speak to like when the things happen and it's like what am I gonna do and it's like you just Pick yourself up and do something else, you know, andI think about that a lot As well because it's easy to get stuck in that feeling of like this is the end.
I'm screwed It's like this now, it's never like that you have control over the next move Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Speaking of hearing things that kind of stick with you we all know that like what we do
[00:33:44] Aaron: trying, to sustain our lives through making art is hard. You start hearing that when you're really little, even if
your parents aren't in the industry.
I heard somebody say, it was in relation to something completely different, but it was like, this group of people that were struggling or something. they basically had an authority figure be like, this is what hard looks like. you knew this was going to be hard and this is what hard looks like.
And so
just like reminding myself, in those times I know this is going to be hard. Cool. This is what it looks like.
I can handle it
[00:34:13] Lilly: in a way it's like pumping myself up But then also like being very gentle with myself
[00:34:18] Aaron: and giving myself permission to be like this sucks cuz it does suck
[00:34:21] Lilly: Sometimes you have to feel that
[00:34:23] Michaela: well, One of the things I wanted to ask you about, because you've been on our list for a long time and then what reminded me to reach out is cause I was. It's on Instagram, and I saw you post on your stories about Instagram's it's like a video game of unlock your next goal.
You got so many views on your reel or whatever, and You posted it and said, this is why.
I deleted my account after I got up to like over 20, 000 followers because the pressure to sustain and grow was too much. and you said that you deleted it
[00:34:52] Aaron: to see also if you could sustaining a career and like so far you have, can you talk a little bit about that decision cause I feel like so many people feel like we live and die by our social numbers
I bet you there's more than a few people listening to this episode that just had a panic attack when we said that you deleted your account.
Wait, how? Why? Why'd you do that? No.
[00:35:12] Lilly: I know. And I would say to anyone thinking about deleting their whole thing, they inquired, I'm like, don't just suspend it but that being said, I just have to be all or none with the way I do stuff. So,
and I was so in my head about Instagram stuff.
And honestly, it was almost more personal than, professional, the things I was in my head about, but I was like, I'm just, I'm tired of this. You know, Like I've based a lot of my worth off of this. I don't know if it's real or not. And so I deleted it and then for a year, I didn't have it. And then my cousin helped me start one again, and I was hesitant about digging back into the world of it.
And lately I've been having fun with it because I do feel like that time off. I'm like a very obsessive person, I'm also an addictive person, I feel those, things are clearly rigged to tap into any addictive sort of OCD thing you have. And I don't feel even a victim of that. I just needed to establish for myself that I could have a boundary of it, see what life was like off it. it was really cool and clear. I did some touring in that time that went well.
But it was also hard to promote things, you know, and I did get to the point where it was like nobody knows what I'm doing because I was using my Facebook a lot, which has its own thing going on. So I wasn't like off all social media, didn't feel like I saw a decline in shows, but that was before I did my own tour.
Like I was doing opening stuff. So there were other people promoting the stuff I was doing. I've seen what Instagram looks like in what a room looks like full. And I'm like, there are bands on there that sell out tours that have, not a crazy Instagram following, but I've seen it.
We all have probably. So it's like, this isn't real. Like, If you only got how everybody likes, don't think that's how the world is. how the online world is. they're two different things. But I don't know. How do y'all feel about that
[00:37:05] Aaron: Yeah, I mean, fully that. You know, you see People that have low numbers on social media and make a great living
and sell records and all that and then you see people have like a massive following that can't sell small rooms, we think of virtual reality, and we think of, like, crazy looking goggles, and, all of that, and it's immersive, and I'm like, No, like, social media is virtual reality.
It is this reality that doesn't exist in a tangible place. It only exists virtually. Mm
[00:37:33] Lilly: It's not a real space. mean, I think it's a nice tool. to help people. And, and obviously like, you know, if you blow up, your numbers are probably going to blow up, but it's also like, I'm not the one to check my stream numbers.
I don't do that. No, I, cause it makes me feel bad. So I just kind of let it. I don't know what that means, but I do know when I tour, I like to have more people come each tour that's how it's gone,
[00:38:00] Michaela: I struggle 100 percent with Instagram, but no other, platform.
I'm not on Twitter really anymore. Like, Instagram though. is a challenge for me mentally.
[00:38:10] Aaron: I've been relating Michaela's Instagram addiction to like an alcohol addiction lately.
only because you've been talking about it. So this is not unprompted for those that are worried out there.
so she'll like delete it from her phone, but then like scroll on the browser. Oh yeah. You know, or
[00:38:24] Lilly: that kind of
[00:38:25] Aaron: my favorite one is she'll delete Instagram and then she's scrolling like next door,
which is like the craziest social media thing.
I just need to scroll something. I'm like, man, when you delete
[00:38:34] Lilly: Instagram, you scroll next door. That's the equivalent of like quitting alcohol and then going to the store and buying like rubbing alcohol and being like this could probably work, right? it's super addictive,
[00:38:42] Aaron: addictive. It's
[00:38:44] Lilly: so addictive.
Yeah. is that we think it's our own personal weakness that it's addictive
Yeah,
[00:38:51] Michaela: even though again, we intellectually understand it was designed to be addictive.
[00:38:55] Lilly: For sure.
[00:38:56] Michaela: my brother got off all social media or maybe he's like still on Twitter or something, but he doesn't need social media for his career.
that's the, challenge with being a musician is like. I do songwriting coaching. I promote my work and my lessons and my coaching all through Instagram. my ability to like survive financially is directly impacted by that.
And I'm so grateful for that tool, but it is very tricky mentally to try and keep your worth Detached from it and
not be like,
man, I've been doing this a long time.
Maybe if I was better at it, I'd have more followers do people just not like me? it's so fucked what happens in our brains. my brother was just like, I was addicted to just scrolling mindlessly. And then I watched a minute special basically how like. these apps are designed to have the same type of influence slot machines do.
[00:39:48] Lilly: and I just deleted them. I was like, this is not good for me. And he got off of it. yeah.
and then made this decision It's like dang dude but also like that's really cool and on one hand wow, it can be really fun And i'm trying to just have fun myself with it.
I'm like I have stuff to promote i'm gonna need this but also like Right now, I've deleted my app, and I'm like, I will not be checking it till 7pm. But I do that all the time, and then I upload it again at like, 2. You know, And then I delete it, I like, do it five times. I try to establish the boundaries with it, because of speaking to what your brother said something I realized when I was off of it I was like I care about what other people think I want to know But I also felt really true to my own convictions,
I kind of appreciated that. Like my husband would tell me stuff, everybody be talking about online. And I was like, being a little removed from it. Just the herd mentality of this is cool to be this, or this is cool to be this. And it's like, I don't like that. I want to think for myself, in 2020 really burned me out on that and I don't mean even politically left or right.
I just mean,I've said my opinions too, you know, I'm not trying to put anyone down. it really started messing my head up where I was like, how do I, what do I feel? what do I think about this horrifying crap that goes on in our world? I want to think for myself, anyway,
[00:41:12] Michaela: scientifically like, so many articles out there of just our brains are not wired to consume and hold this much information constantly.
[00:41:20] Lilly: absolutely.
[00:41:21] Michaela: We had Laura Viers on here and she said, I got to a point where I was like, we are what we consume and like, our thoughts are what we consume.
And she was like, so I got off Instagram and she was like, because I was literally checking it a million times a second. And she was like, so now my managers do it because I need it,
[00:41:40] Lilly: Yeah,
[00:41:41] Michaela: to post
I don't have access to it. And I was like, that is some strong, strong will.
[00:41:46] Lilly: That is some strong will for sure. And you got to do what you got to do. you to have some strong ass skin in the world today, you know, to get by and stay true to who you are, I think. I really admire people that are, forward with how they feel and what they think and, teach their own.
I feel you, we all have to protect our own inner knowing, one way or another,
[00:42:09] Aaron: Yeah. I think the protecting the inner knowing, like you said, when you step back from social media and saw this kind of crowd mentality, I also stepped back, man, it must've been 2018
[00:42:19] Michaela: you were off like a year, right?
[00:42:21] Aaron: I'd like log on like once every like three months or so.
[00:42:24] Lilly:
[00:42:24] Aaron: I noticed that same thing
just the space that created. I was also started sobriety at that time. And so like this,
came with all of that going on, like this space that all created allowed me to hear my inner knowing a little bit more,
[00:42:39] Lilly:
[00:42:39] Aaron: even know that my inner anything was there or saying anything. And so like creating that space, it's like, Oh.whatever's going on in here knows a thing or two.
[00:42:49] Lilly: that's such a good thing to look at. I feel like for anybody like, all of us as an adult, it's however you want to look at something, you know, if you have any sort of relationship with something that you're like, I'm not really into the way this is going right now, recalibrating is huge, you
know, and whether it's social media, alcohol, I've never been one to be like, this is the one way to do it, but it takes guts to face that stuff and be like, I'd like to change this, you know, and the way I go about it, whatever that means. and I know what you mean about the quiet, I left my phone in the airport and I didn't have 1 for 4 days because they mailed it back. I was in heaven. I was like, woohoo! I could get messages on my computer, so I wasn't like, estranged from anything. But when I went anywhere, I was like, I'm free! To just be like, totally here. And then I thought about it, I was like, it's crazy. In our society that we are expected to carry on like 40 conversations a day.
You don't have to. Like, I love chatting and being there. And I have a big family and I love talking to them. And y'all have a child, so I'm sure you have to be like, on, you know, and available. But, it's cool to take the space, if you can, in any way.
[00:44:04] Aaron: this before and For a while, I was touring with this band And it was basically like a string band trio and they'd have a rotating cast of drummers that would tour with them.
And I was honored to be one of those for a while. And one of the songwriters.
[00:44:16] Lilly: That's
[00:44:17] Aaron: now and then would take a day of silence
wouldn't talk, wouldn't look at her phone or anything
[00:44:21] Lilly:
[00:44:21] Aaron: just a day. And then we'll like come back and I. I loved it. the two others that were like full time members were like, okay, here we go.
You
[00:44:29] Lilly: They're like, it's
[00:44:30] Aaron: there was one
day in particular, and I say this with a hundred percent love and admiration for her doing it. I think we had to drive from San Francisco to LA and return a car and then fly to. Houston or Dallas and rent a car and then drive to, it must have been Houston, and then we drove to Kerrville or something like that.
And that was the day that decided she wanted to do it silently,
[00:44:48] Lilly: Wow! I'm gonna try that. I'm gonna be like
[00:44:51] Aaron: through LAX, through like renting cars. I think either the one we were returning or the one that we were picking, I think it was the one that we were picking up was in her name
[00:44:59] Lilly: I need to know how she did that.
[00:45:00] Aaron:
Because this was at least two weeks, maybe three weeks into a tour and we had a week left the next day she woke up and she was like totally rejuvenated
There's so much pressure to be like connected and in the mix Like I noticed that all the time like we went to visit my parents last week or a week or two ago and they live in in Michigan obviously because my mom's stroke life is very slow and like there's not a lot of activity going on and like we just bike around town all the time and go to playgrounds and get ice cream and, there was like a big part of me that was like, what if we moved here?
[00:45:35] Michaela: and then like a part of me was like, if we did that, I would be giving up, I would be dropping out and giving up. And then I was like, but then there's also a big part of me that was like, Oh, I could relax.
[00:45:47] Lilly: Oh, I talk.
[00:45:50] Michaela: that pull that that's
not okay
[00:45:52] Lilly: Oh,
I know. deep still.
I
[00:45:54] Michaela: You gotta be in the mix, my entire adult life has only been New York City or Nashville.
[00:45:59] Lilly: Ooh, those are two happening spots. Yeah, and it's like, totally, I have a fantasy. Every time I go to a small, quiet half of me and my heart is pulled. I'm like, I want this. it's like the Doubt song, Simple Kind of Life. It's like, I want that Those are things that make me happy. It's really quiet, simple situations, but then there's that other half of me that's I feed off the mix and I need it too. And even just moving out to Goodlitsville has been like a quieter change of pace. where my family lived growing up. We lived in a quiet We lived in the country but, we were always going into town, you know? so it's like, yeah, I feel you.
I need both. But. There's part of me that like would love to just go do something quieter. I'm literally like mortified getting on stage. there's another half that's I love this. And I guess a lot of us feel that way.
[00:46:50] Aaron: For sure. Yeah, I think I It's like 10 acres of quiet woods with maybe a stream in the middle of Brooklyn. Yeah. That's all we need.
[00:47:00] Michaela: Exactly.
[00:47:00] Lilly: Totally. You can leave
[00:47:02] Michaela: my dream.
[00:47:02] Lilly: Oh, that's so cool. New
[00:47:04] Michaela: I want to be able to like be in my paradise, but then bike out of my yard and be like at a coffee shop and bookstore and
[00:47:13] Lilly: Totally. did you go to NYU
or did y'all,
[00:47:16] Aaron: new school, which is like
up the street from up the street from NYU.
[00:47:21] Lilly: That sounds like blast to go to school, like college in New York city.
[00:47:26] Aaron: Yeah, there's part of me that wonders what like going to a college with a campus would be like.
[00:47:31] Lilly: Yeah. Cause
[00:47:32] Michaela: all like lived in, I mean, we had dorms the first year or two, but then a lot of people just moved out to apartments to different boroughs.
And like, it just kind of felt like we were adults, commuting into work to go to class.
[00:47:43] Aaron:
[00:47:43] Lilly: fast track to adulthood there. Yeah.
[00:47:45] Aaron: for sure, I'd like to say that, like, you know, We went to college and going to college, like right in the middle of Manhattan you know, and then graduating and having to like figure out how to pay rent, we went
from like college age to like, immediately, like, so we were like 33, however many eight years after college that we lived in New York and then we moved to Nashville and moved to like, we reverted, moved like, near the air park in East Nashville and
like, you know, the five spot was like, heyday of the five spot
and so we moved to Nashville was like we were both immediately 25.
weird chronology, college to our 30s to like our 20s
[00:48:16] Michaela: yeah, and now we're fucked off for a while and then we were like we should maybe get our lives together.
[00:48:21] Lilly: You gotta have that period in your life, if possible, where you're like, I'm kind of just having a lot of fun right now. Like, you know, That's cool to know about you guys. And sounds like a fun, interesting, not just straightforward path, which is cool. was going to say, I went to college in Denver, which was super fun and I had a blast.
But I remember the hard line of I moved here with my band right after Right into like I worked at bread and company on West End and was starting to pay rent Which wasn't a lot at the time where I lived it was like literally I paid about 250 bucks for my rent to live like right downtown, but I remember just The complete shift of I was just a college kid living in the, and I worked and stuff in college, but I was also going to school.
To like, serving Vandy kids. And being on the other side and being like, Oh, man, this kind of sucks, you know? But like, that was also the beginning of my like, gotta do what you gotta do, you know? Like, I was like, cause I was just like, I'm their age and I was just having fun like that.
But now I'm waking up at 4. 30 in the morning to cook them breakfast.
[00:49:30] Aaron: we had a conversation with Sarah Watkins and Sean Watkins.
[00:49:34] Lilly: They're cool.
[00:49:35] Aaron: yeah, the great people and both of them in different points of the conversation shared gratitude for the skills that you just passively develop through having to take care of things whether you're, running your own tour booking your own tour having to do all that or Doing whatever you need to do to pay your bills so that you can Keep writing music and putting it out, there's so many skills that you develop in that grind that are
so useful.
[00:49:59] Lilly: so right. You do kind of have to become like a renaissance person. I do like clerical work. I can kind of work with Google Sheets,
you know,
like,
[00:50:10] Michaela: agent. I can do graphic design.
[00:50:12] Lilly: I can
[00:50:13] Aaron: book at Hotels. And the skills of being a self starter, identifying what needs to be done and holding yourself accountable to it is a massive skill that the more I talk to
[00:50:22] Lilly: people that. employ other people, the more they're like, that skill is rare. we have to like spell it out for people, like do this and then do this and then do this. So as hard as it
[00:50:31] Michaela: is, we are blessed to have
chosen this path.
[00:50:37] Lilly: Yes! It's the truth. It, we are. We can do a lot of little different things.
Lots of little
[00:50:44] Michaela: little pennies. Exactly.
[00:50:46] Lilly: Totally! Just doing our best.
[00:50:48] Aaron: We'll talk about being blessed. We're honored that you took time to be here with us today and chat with us and. Yeah.
[00:50:54] Lilly: y'all. it's been really fun to talk to both of you guys and get to know y'all a little better through this. So, Thank you. I am honored.
[00:51:01] Aaron: Thank you. We'll talk to you soon. Bye. See ya.