Lori McKenna is Grammy-winning singer songwriter who has released 12+ records on Warner, Signature Sounds, Thirty Tigers, and written countless songs that have been number 1 hits for the likes of Faith Hill, Tim McGraw, Taylor Swift, Little Big Town, Lady Gaga, Maren Morris, Thomas Rhett, The Highwomen, and Mandy Moore, to name a few. All of this widespread acclaim started later in life for Lori (at 36, with 5 children), so we talk with her about that experience, how being in Boston vs Nashville has impacted her career, how and if her success has affected her process, her thoughts on touring and the requirements of an artist career beyond the songs, and much more, all well soaking up her immense gratitude for it all.
Lori McKenna is Grammy-winning singer songwriter who has released 12+ records on Warner, Signature Sounds, Thirty Tigers, and written countless songs that have been number 1 hits for the likes of Faith Hill, Tim McGraw, Taylor Swift, Little Big Town, Lady Gaga, Maren Morris, Thomas Rhett, The Highwomen, and Mandy Moore, to name a few. All of this widespread acclaim started later in life for Lori (at 36, with 5 children), so we talk with her about that experience, how being in Boston vs Nashville has impacted her career, how and if her success has affected her process, her thoughts on touring and the requirements of an artist career beyond the songs, and much more, all well soaking up her immense gratitude for it all.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And this is our second year of our podcast, and we're so happy to still be here. Thank you for being here with us.
[00:00:21] Aaron: Yeah, a few things before we start the episode.
As we're all keenly aware, the world of streaming is not really a goldmine for anybody. But we were talking the other day, and we kind of realized that Maybe a lot of us don't understand that there's a big difference between music streaming and podcast streaming podcast streaming pays exactly 0 per stream.
So with that, we turn to you guys, our audience to help us continue making this show and to grow this show to a wider audience. And to do that, we have a few options for you. The number one is we have a Patrion. There's a great community over there. There are more ways to dive into what we talk about in this show, being our creativity and our headspace and all of that.
There is advanced notice of who our guests are so that you can submit your own questions for our guests to answer. Like you'll hear in today's episode. And there is a link for that in the show notes. The next one would be to follow or subscribe to the show on whatever platform you listen or watch on.
lastly, if you have a favorite episode. If you wouldn't mind just sharing that with somebody that doesn't know about our show, whether it's sending them a text or just putting on social media, it's a great way to get the word out and to bring new listeners to our show.
[00:01:28] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on for this podcast is that we are not journalists. We are working musicians ourselves. So there's a different rather than an interview based conversation, we're really, it feels like we're sitting around the table sharing what the realities are of building a lifelong career around your art.
[00:01:50] Aaron: which is an insanely crazy thing to do. As we all know, most of this career is. Completely outside of our control. And so we like to focus on what is within our control. And that is generally our mindsets, our habits and routines and our creativity in general.
And we've distilled that down to the question what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to ask that. Lori McKenna.
[00:02:14] Michaela: Yeah, Lori McKenna is a personal songwriting musician hero of mine. She has, oh man, where to begin. She's from Massachusetts and has remained there but has been one of the top songwriters in Nashville.
Country music. She has had hits with Faith Hill, Tim McGraw, Taylor Swift, Hunter Hayes, Mandy Moore, Little Big Town, Lady Gaga for A Star is Born, Maren Morris, Thomas Rhett, The High Women and she currently has the number one song on country radio with Parker McCollum. She is Grammy nominated and winning and nominated and winning of ACM, CMA, and Americana Music Awards.
She is a mother of five and just,an incredible writer and person and so fun to talk to.
[00:02:58] Aaron: So grounded so humble. We talk a lot about how she feels so lucky and how we as creatives are lucky to be able to do what we do. There's a lot of talk about, seeing the little sign posts along the way on your journey to keep going or to make sure that you're on the right path.
And with that, a lot of talk on carving out space head space, mental space, schedule space to be able to do things. I kind of had the conclusion, after listening to Laurie talk is like, Oh, you need that space to be able to see these signposts.
[00:03:28] Michaela: Yeah. It was a really beautiful, generous conversation.
So without further ado, here is Laurie McKenna.
first off, just thank you. Thank you for making the time to have this conversation and answering my Instagram message.
[00:03:42] Lori: my goodness. Well,
Thank you because um, Mark told, Mark O'Reilly
[00:03:46] Michaela: mm hmm.
[00:03:47] Lori: me to look at my Instagram messages because I, as we can tell, not great at technology or social media, but, then I went back and I've watched like several of your shows and I just love it.
[00:04:00] Michaela: Thank you.
[00:04:00] Lori: it. Thank you
guys. This is like such a service.
I'm like, where was this last summer? Why didn't I know this existed?
Like a holiday inn somewhere. Needed to like
[00:04:11] Michaela: I mean, this is completely selfishly motivated because also podcasts talk about an additional thing that is so hard to make money at. podcasts are not a source for income. This is for us and for our community of friends of just really feeling like we're in our late 30s and we just started a family and we have no, backup plan and we're just like how has everybody done it?
How do people continue to do it? And obviously your career feels like an anomaly of sorts. because you're a mother of five children, which I've been quickly learning this career path is not exactly, welcoming to mothers and different areas and forms.
And also you've had so much success in the mainstream of pop country writing world, but you, have never left Massachusetts as far as where you live full time. And that's been kind of a reoccurring, we have a Patreon where people ask questions and that's kind of been a reoccurring theme of just starting with location.
The fact that you live in the town that you grew up in and has there ever been, any thought at any point of, Should we move to Nashville?
[00:05:19] Lori: mean When that would have first been like a question was the year That I got my publishing deal, which was the year my youngest son, David was born. And it all happened at the same time. I always, I firmly believe that every time anybody has a child, something in the universe shifts.
Like, Let's give them something else now. Oh my gosh. I just got chills. , because I'm like, holy shit. Yes, that's true.
I've thought a lot about that. And I actually think that it might have something to do with, Just relaxing and not worrying like, what is music going to be in my life? But the year I had David, he was born in 2004 he was born like, literally like, I put out a record called Bittertown, and he was born like, three days later.
And that year was just like, every day was like the day before Christmas. Mary Gautier, who's like a dear friend, and like my earthly angel had moved to Nashville, gave my record to a publisher, called, and was like, Can I pitch your songs around town? Like, This never happens.
I'm like breastfeeding a kid, and there's kids everywhere. And I ended up getting a deal, Through all that by just a series of women stepping up for me, honestly. so that would have been when that question, you know, was like a real question. Like, okay, I have a publishing deal, and I'm going to make a record for Warner.
Should we move now? And I had David, who is an infant, and my oldest. I have like a high schooler, a middle schooler, an elementary schooler. Like I had these years where I had like every school in town I had a kid at and wanted home.
[00:06:48] Michaela: Oh my gosh.
[00:06:49] Lori: And so it didn't make any sense. It wasn't even a question. It was like, what kind of lunatic like rips all of these people from their roots on a hunch that maybe they could do music for the rest of their lives?
I wasn't going to let anybody else suffer. Like it wouldn't be me suffering, it would be them. And so that was really never a question. The question was more like how can we manage me working a little bit more or traveling? because we all kind of work the same, I guess but The traveling piece was gonna be the piece and my family kicked in my husband, Probably wanted to kill me Mm-Hmm. Everybody just stepped up I always say that happening.
it's like I won the lottery, but I never bought a ticket You I've had so much luck. But the thing about luck is you have to show up for it every time I took a step that I didn't want to take or I was afraid to take, somebody was always like had a handout being like, take one more step.
and then all of a sudden you look back and you have you know, David's 19.
Wow. And I'm still taking that Southwest flight to Nashville.
[00:07:51] Aaron: leading up to that moment where it sounds like everything changed, what was your relationship to your ambition?
[00:08:00] Lori: I think that my relationship up to getting those phone calls, like Mary saying, there's people down here that like what you do. And I always Boston has a beautiful community. I would
not do music at all if Boston
didn't have,
the nourishing environment that it really, at least at that time, just like loving individuals sitting some seat at Passim, like willing to tell you that they saw themselves in your song.
Like unbelievable that this place exists honestly, I'm not very competitive and I get I think that people think you have to be competitive to be in This world that we're in but there's not really a shred of that in me.
I just I'm the youngest of six kids. I don't know. I'm like something wrong. I can take the blame, whatever you need. And I just wasn't going to be able to be like a competitive person in that way. But I came up in this nurturing environment and then was welcomed into this nurturing world. But up until then, up until I got a publishing deal, really, I remember sitting on like flight home, I had like a printed out version of this contract that said like songwriter, Also known as, from here on out, Laurie McKenna is going to be called songwriter.
It's like, Whoa, I think it might be a songwriter. I'm not sure.up until that point, I think my relationship was like, I still get to do this thing that helps me like pay my car payment every now and then and other months it doesn't, but I still get to do this music thing that I love.
and then it was like, all of a sudden like, this is. I guess it's a career because I think someone just called me a songwriter. And I guess if someone sits beside me on this plane and says, what do you do for a living? I'm going to be like, I think I write songs. That sounds wild, but I think that's what I do.
I still kind of have that in me a little bit. Like I still, I think cause I never moved to Nashville. I still have like a beginner's spirit about that town and what it does. all these years later, like if someone asked me, I would probably say, Oh, I'm a songwriter. I put out these little records and they always say, Oh no, I know any songs, you know, that you wrote.
And then it's like, and then I just want to get out of the conversation to be honest, because it's such a weird one. I think that my relationship. It's a relationship is a good word because it's really has been a an evolving relationship with this career path, which is unique. And if you get to do it, it's a total blessing.
Like the fact that we get to have music in our life, that's what we wanted. We didn't want any of the other things that the world makes you think you need for music. And what we wanted was to be able to make music all the time. And that's what we get to do.
[00:10:39] Aaron: I wonder, you know, you said you still approach it with that kind of beginner's mindset, which I absolutely love. Did the actual act of creating your process or anything like that change once there was like that external label on you as songwriter? was it harder to write? did you put more pressure on yourself?
[00:10:57] Lori:
I'm not that great at putting pressure on myself maybe, but I think that I've grown in my confidence and I always say this, but again, back to Boston and this community here, and folks that I came up with Mary Gautier and Marco Relly and Christelle Morrison, all these.
incredible artists, me and Mary, like 10 years older than everybody else. And just like watching these people be able to jump on stage with each other or be able to harmonize with each other or playing each other's records and play all these instruments and.
I didn't really know how to do I still can't harmonize unless it's A, either the easiest part in the world, or B, you've taught me how to do it. But I've found, although I love that community, I didn't know where my place was in that community. And, when I discovered co writing, which was when I got my publishing deal.
And you know, they were like, this is what we do here. We co write, you sit in a room with these other people and you make up a song. And I was like, okay. And that's where I felt like, wait, I'm not that great of a player. I'm not that great of a singer. I'm not that great at like entertainment, but I can help you write your song.
Like I can sit here with you all day and not get distracted or bored or want to leave. And I can try to help you write whatever songs in the room or whatever song is in your chest that you need to get out. Like that's where I felt like I really found my community. And then when I understood that I could hold my own there in a way that I never can, just musically, I felt that's where my confidence grew a little bit and I think that's why I've been able to sort of feel like a kid every time I show up in Nashville or anywhere or even over zoom or whatever, all the timeI think I just naturally have that.
I didn't figure this out until I was 36 and here it is. It's right here in front of me,
[00:12:47] Michaela: we had Mary Gauchet on here and talking about age is something. that I feel like is very prevalent for women, but I'm kind of naively surprised that even men feel some of the like, ageism, like time is running out thing.
So it's so incredible to hear from people whose paths are considered late bloomers, which really feels crazy to me because at the same time, especially as writers, not to disparage what people write about in their 20s, but your songwriting gets better as you live more you have more to pull from so it's wild that There's this like sense in the industry that it's not as valued and I remember listening to your latest record Last summer I was like now being Where I'm at in life with a young child and my mom had a stroke when I was pregnant and lots of just big life things have happened probably for the first time.
I probably lived a pretty like, selfishly bubble life. And so your songs hit me in a really different way. And I was thinking like, Oh, Lori's songs are songs for grownups. fell in love with your songs when I was like 22. I worked at Nonesuch Records right out of college, which is a part of Warner.
And the lawyer at Warner Brothers It started being nice to me. I don't think he was being creepy, but he like took a liking to me and was asking me about me and I was like well, I'm actually a musician, but I had an internship and got hired and he was asking me like, what kind of music I like?
And he was like, Oh, you should listen to this woman that Warner Brothers just signed Laurie McKenna. And he gave me your CD out of the CD closet I took it home and listened to it. And I think I told you this before that I sent, cause we started dating when we were 21, I sent Aaron an email one time with your lyrics to try and express myself
[00:14:32] Lori: oh, did it
[00:14:35] Aaron: I was That was, what, 17 years ago, 16 years ago. So I was
[00:14:39] Michaela: like, you're not understanding me. Maybe you can understand when Laurie McKenna says it.
[00:14:42] Lori: maybe my husband can listen to my songs sometime. Maybe you can get my husband with I put out a record right during covid. So He's the sweetest. His Gene and I put out a record like July of 2020 called The Balladeer and he asked me a straight up year and a half later. He's like, did that record ever come out? that's the best kind of husband. Yeah. I think now that I'm older too, like, I am kind of obsessed with the aging process. And I keep teasing like, I'm just gonna go down that like, nobody else wants the road about writing about getting old and what happens to us. Like, I'm just gonna go down that road.
Like, I feel like the arc of like, Having little kids and you can't figure out where your husband is. It's five o'clock. He didn't come straight home from work. He's drinking beer like that time in your life it sounds like you have it exactly the same time.
You're having a child and you're, Parent needs help. That happened to my siblings and my, sister and I like raised our kids together and, that's starting to happen as our kids are leaving the house. My father needs. A little bit more help. So it's like these things happen at the craziest time like I said earlier like one thing doesn't happen Like it's always something else And then like life is just tapping you on the shoulder.
Like What are you gonna pull from this? What are you gonna take from
this? um, Because there's all different things you can Take you have to be conscious about what you're gonna pull from it And I think for me, the way I pull is the songs, you know, it's the only way I know how to make sense of, things that are happening or friends that are going through things.
And I don't know why they're going through them or just stories or just characters, that we get to make up and then figure out what their story is. I think like what we tell ourself, our story is, is like the energy you put into that is really. And you have to kind of be careful with it because we can tell ourselves a sad story, or we can tell ourselves a difficult one that had a lot of good things in it.
with your writing becoming a source of career success and livelihood and, and all that stuff do you ever have to shift and say like, okay this stuff that I want to write about that's like coming from my soul, do you ever write intentionally like for the market or like for cuts or is it always unearthing your life stories and observations and then they happen work out that way?
I spent so many years just writing on my own. And I think that was good for me. Like I spent so many years like starting as a teenager writing. So I think I started when I was like 13 and I didn't leave the house with music until I was 28. And then I didn't get a publishing deal till I was 36.
So really more importantly,from 13 to 28. I just thought no one's going to hear these songs, but me. So they can be whatever I want them to be. And I didn't really learn to edit, if I had taken a class or if I had had some success with songwriting, somebody would have.
Taught me how to edit and I didn't I had all that freedom of just being a selfish songwriter. And then again, from 28 to 36, it was just like I had this tiny little world, which I still love. And, you know, maybe a hundred people would show up and, or maybe I'd go to an open mic and play a song.
And, And I realized, it's great to see someone's reaction to the little song I made up you know, when my kids were going to sleep or whatever. And then 36, I learned how to co write and I love it for that reason mentioned earlier. I find myself in this community that I feel like I can be of service of some kind too.
And always had good publishers that knew that I wasn't that great. It's just like, here's what's on the radio, do that.
But I think I probably failed at it so quickly that I knew. not to bang my head against that wall for very long. I do enjoy sitting with an artist and trying to figure out, how they would tell their story and how, if I can help them make it truer or more honest and then maybe they can, create some sort of sound that Gets on the radio, you know what I mean?
Like there's like I love finding my place in that spot, but it's very rare You know that a song That I've written by myself that if I try to use a commercial brain, it's very rare that it would leave my house Gotcha.
my worst day is when I show up with Some happy people that want to like write a beach song about a party or something.
I'm like, oh dear lord, like I will get lunch today. I will make sure you have coffee. I will type anything you need to be typed, but my publishers know me well and they don't usually put me in, you know,
Everybody wants to write a happy song every now and then. Even if I'm in the room.
But,I still try to find my place in the song. That's why I love co writing. Because every song You find your place and your place is different. In co writing. And I love that about it. so exciting. I don't know if I answered your question.
[00:19:48] Aaron: You definitely did. You mentioned in there writing a song with radio in mind the song wouldn't leave your house Want to hear you kind of talk about the difference between like writing for yourself and co writing because I assume you still write for yourself And Has that changed do you write for yourself just to write for yourself or is like This could be on a record kind of thing in your head
[00:20:07] Lori: The way the last few records that I've made lately over the last three or four is they end up being about half and half or somewhere around there. I still do write solo, but usually those are the ones that I just think well, either they pop out. Chris Delmarce calls them furball songs like, you just like, oh, you're like, oh, I didn't know, I didn't know that was in there, look at that like,
I just I love that description because it's so true like, look, I was upset about this, I didn't even know,
like, hmm. Out of you, like you have to be you have to like, okay I won't make dinner right now. I'll pay attention to you for a minute and those are rare, right? or I will hold the side days where I Just see what will pop out I do love co writing so much and I do Probably maybe a little bit too much lately co write.
I just write a lot like I spend probably two or three days a week on average and I probably should be a little less. Why do you say that?
well I've just noticed that since like last year I've noticed that I need a lot more space.
Since COVID, everything for me changed in writing because of COVID. And I'm sure this happened with a lot of people, but before COVID, I would, I FaceTime right with my friend, Barry Dean, who's a brilliant writer. And he lives in Nashville and he's like a dear friend. And I would FaceTime with him sometimes so I knew how to do it.
once we figured out that we could write songs together this is one of the good things about me not living in nashville Because I really probably wouldn't allow any space and the space part is so important to me because you can't go anywhere in nashville Without falling over a great songwriter
COVID did that to me.
It's I just got on the computer every day and I would, sit down here and write all day and then I would go upstairs and make dinner. And it was like, oh my God, this is what it's like to have a nine to five job. This is what real people do. Like, And I just sort of have kept it up, which is a blessing that people will still write with me on the computer because I've been able to write with a lot more people than I normally would have.
But it also made me sort of write a lot more since COVID, I've written a lot more than I did before. I think I need to stare at the tree in the backyard for a little bit. think that's hopeful to me.
[00:22:16] Aaron: Yeah. I mean that like, creativity on demand. Is a hard thing to balance, especially, when your intuition and your gut and your creativity is so rooted in integrity and honesty and realness. To show up like that, on demand like that for scheduled rights a skill all in itself.
[00:22:38] Lori: Yeah, and it's a whole different, before co writing. So before I was 36, it was just like, I wouldn't do anything unless I was inspired to do it because I didn't really have to and I do like that part of it I think because I truly do love co writing so much.
I think it's such a unique Thing and my husband works for the gas company. He's a plumber like he doesn't Communicate with anybody on a daily basis the way we get to communicate with each other. I mean we just like jump, right? Like that's it most people don't have that and that's why they like songs because a song will be like a Conversation that they're having with somebody and they'll pull things out of them But we pull things out of each other and you know get to meeting each other right away.
this is this chorus that I came Up with and I don't know what it means yet And then you start stretching it out and you're like, oh my god, look what it says, you know You That's such a blessing like I I do love it I don't want to leave a co write Thinking that I didn't do the best I could do for the song and the person
it's such a balance of all the different things that writing can be and do for us. Like I just had an experience last week that really made me think about like how incredibly intimate Writing can be co writing if you let it and how transformative it can be. And to remember that on the days, you know, I find living in Nashville a little challenging because it can feel so heavy on the business side that I have to like constantly try and remind myself,
[00:24:09] Michaela: to get back to the beginner's mind, to be completely honest. Cause I get caught up in the stress of do we have enough money, all that stuff. And I had a friend a couple weeks ago, reach out who, Courtney Hartman?
[00:24:20] Lori: She's an incredible like flat picking guitarist. But then also a beautiful songwriter and we've known each other for years, but not on a deep level. And 14 month old baby and she reached out to me and was like, Hey, I've been writing this song about becoming a mother and wanting your own mother there.
[00:24:37] Michaela: She was like, I've been writing it from my own experience, but also from afar. Cause I share a lot online about my journey with my own mother. having a stroke. And she was like, I've been thinking of you too, as I've been writing this. And would you be willing to help me finish it?
[00:24:52] Lori: Oh wow.
[00:24:53] Michaela: And I was like, one, how incredible, like you never know. Whenever you put anything out in the world, who's receiving it? Who's thinking of you? And what that's doing for them. we finished the song together. We wrote like a couple other verses and I helped edit. And it was so incredible.
I was holding back tears the whole time because I was like, Courtney, this is a song that I really needed, that I was not capable of writing for myself through this experience. it's not my song, it's her song, but To bring me into it was such a gift. And I feel like that's the kind of stuff, we also talk about on this podcast of like the constant reminders we need of what experiential gift it is to be able to write songs, play songs, share songs in this lifetime, regardless of whatever comes of it in the outside world and trying to hold onto that as often as possible.
[00:25:45] Lori: I mean, I think first of all, I would say that back to the living in Nashville versus not living in Nashville. And I always see it through the creative side of the benefit of not living there. And just, like I said, feeling like a little kid, that business piece is real I literally will separate myself from it a lot because if you just look at the business side of it as creatives as we are, it's not that reassuring. You know, I have two kids that live in Nashville now that are songwriters. One has a deal, one doesn't have a deal yet.
if I like, if I showed them a spreadsheet it would be pretty daunting. I think you have to like actively know like I can only handle this much of this right now And then I'm gonna put it aside and remember why I'm here Which is we get to write music every day or work in music every day But I think her reaching out with that song It's like something about songs Where they reach out to you.
Like they say, if when you start a spiritual journey, you're reaching up for the spiritual journey, whatever it may be, but the thing is reaching down to you too. And I think songs. do that so well. and I don't know if this was her experience with the song, but I've had songs where I have tried to write them myself for a month and a half and I cannot do it.
And then I bring it to someone who just sees themselves in it and like, not even because I'm so good at deciding who should have what song. No, I don't mean that at all. Like the song just knew she doesn't need to do this by herself. She needs Liz Rose and Hillary Lindsay, and then they're gonna figure it out together and they're gonna sit there and cry about their journey in motherhood and like all the things.
And it, that's happened to me so many times. That it wasn't me that did it. So the song needed you, I think there's something there, and there's this quote that I literally I wish I could tell you who said this, about purpose, cause I try remember the service of the song, like Mary Gautier teaches like, songwriting is a service industry.
pulling that apart and like exactly how do I find that? mary Like I said is one of my angels, but she is so wise and when she first ever said that to me, I was just so interested in that and just Trying to go down that road a little bit.
I found this quote that says like The purpose is what happens in someone else when you do the thing you do.
Mm-Hmm. So your purpose isn't music. Your purpose is the music finding its way to someone else. And we will never know.
We'll know some of that. We'll know when people don't like it. We definitely will know that. They're the loudest ones.
Yeah. But we don't know and we do know some beautiful souls that have reached out and tell us by the way the audience feels that night. But we don't know every single, we're to.
You know what I mean? But I love that analogy and I think it explains itself so well. When you pay attention to what the power of a song is doing, how it isn't just her song, it isn't just your song, it's everybody's song when she's singing out into the world, and then some girl's gonna learn it, when she's 20 years old and, has a kid and, doesn't know where her mom is whatever, just gonna go on forever you have no Real say in it or control over it in like the best most beautiful way
[00:28:56] Aaron: I love that. And that just to tie that sentiment back to our brief talk on, you know, writing for a hit or writing for the radio or something like that, with the way the capitalization of music is at the moment, to me, the value is not in how many listens you can get.
It's in the longevity of what you make. And it's, the integrity of the song or the record or whatever it is. And that just totally speaks to that for me, like when you're writing for that place and you have that purpose in mind of what you are doing for the listener, the service you're providing there, like that's inevitably. For my tastes and my ears. Those are songs that are timeless
[00:29:29] Lori: Yeah. and really I think Maybe every song is timeless you know They all have like their own little lives and i've been obviously like I know I said earlier how lucky I am, but I'm in a lot of ways, the artist side of what I do would not exist anymore if I didn't have the publishing side of what I do.
And I've been put in rooms as a writer, as not the artist. I've been put in the best rooms, the country lane is full of wonderful people. And I've just been so lucky, you know, like the McGraw's like completely just took me under their wings. You know what I mean? Like they just, I have no way of knowing why that happened, it was like, The step forward that I talked about early, like there was always somebody willing to show up and say, let me help you along, and I think that when that does happenyou have to show up for it. You have to not just go back into your little world and hope, someone else knocks on the door. Like, I don't know how many times the door's going to get Is it Guy Clark that said God gives you two songs and the rest you have to write yourself.
And I don't know if he said that or if someone else said it, but it's I keep that in my head all the time. there is a lot of luck in what has happened to me, but I've always, tried to show up for it and tried to just not forget that it's what got me in the room.
[00:30:48] Aaron: It makes me think you know with being 36 when you signed your publishing deal and naming that it's like You know the big turning point where then, you have just kind of followed from there is there and if there is how often is there like a?
Re evaluation on am I doing the right thing? Cuz I I would assume that at 36 you had another career prior to that and another thing that you're doing is there ever Like, any kind of re evaluation of what you're doing, and should I still do this, or anything along those lines?
[00:31:18] Lori: think the only time that I've had to do that is when I, I'm having like a mini nervous breakdown, like, why am I doing this again? And I think that it hasn't happened that often to me, but it's always during some sort of life, change that sort of affects the music, there's been good ones and bad ones, but I think that strangely enough, believe it or not, even though I don't live in Nashville, I I'm not a great traveler. I don't love to tour and I've always just done touring like, you know.maybe not the smartest ways because I'm just like fly in and out.
or maybe that's just a very privileged way. It's not smart, but it's very privileged that, I can, spend more money on getting there than I would be able to justify the shows. those things. happened if I've been gone too long or if the tour was challenging, you know, I do little tours even around an album, it's 16 shows.
tops just weekends over, the summer basically. by the end of that there's always like, okay, I don't have to do this for a couple of years or a year and a half, or we'll see. But you know, we're at the point now where we still have kids at home, but.
Two of my, our five live in Nashville and the other three are here my husband is hopefully going to retire you know, next year or the year after and, chasing the kids around and like, where are they all going to land and all those things. And that always forms.
What am I going to do? I've always sort of been able to fill in what I'm doing around what the family's doing, which has been really great. But as far as like, should I keep doing this? There's always something that keeps telling me I should. And I think it's kind of what we've been talking about, just listening to those, taps on the shoulder, If I get to the point where I'm starting being down about the business or about you know, I had a song last year that I wrote with a an artist that I just thought it was gone.
Like I just thought it was dead, and I didn't really have enough control over the song to like be able to Even know how it landed when we ended our time and writing it it was over a couple of days and it was a little difficult And then the he just finished it it was almost a road where it was being like, this is really discouraging. it's like, you're almost about to give up on a song. And then suddenly somebody would be like, you know what song I really like. And you're like, wow, no one's ever said that to me. No one's ever said that to me about that song ever. And I was just going to take it out of the set you know what I mean?
And they're like, no, that one always, stuck out to me.
Those things happen all the time. It's so weird. It's so strange. And, so for me now, I'm just trying to find how do I avoid getting, down enough to not want to do all the parts.
Which goes back to the aging thing. A lot of this has to do with cameras and getting your photo taken or doing a video.
[00:34:04] Michaela: And I hate all those things. you know, a couple of years ago I had this meeting with myself as far as like, vanity is a thing. And I can, fight this and lose, or I can accept it. And just, age as gracefully as I can and represent myself in this strange video format The best I know how and then just not look at it, and just know that this is part of the process and i'll do what I have to do That feels right to me, but i'm not gonna my version of going down swinging is, hopefully more healthy Yeah, that part is so tough it troubles me because I think it's just going to get tougher I worry raising a little girl because I feel like the, like, expectation of what we should look like within age is getting even more unreasonable that, I hear like, women in their twenties are, like, concerned about their wrinkles and younger, and it's just man.
If this is the world that we're creating and that's so consuming for all of us, no matter how healthy or how much we work to have good self esteem those messages and pressures are always out there, we think about that so much that it can like, take away from us. The song that we're performing and not because we're so vain, because people comment on that stuff it's real.
And it's unfortunate.
[00:35:21] Lori: I've been there a million times where literally like. big performance somewhere and I cannot walk in the shoes I have on or if I step on a guitar chord in the shoes I have on all bets are off. What's good?
Yeah.
And it's just like literally like that whole show came down to those damn shoes guys And it's like I just can't wear the shoes anymore. I need to be in the same boots as marco relli like I just I don't want to worry about my shoes. And older I get, I think this is something beautiful that comes with age. It's you just get to the point where you're like, you know what? I'm going to sing better if I have shoes on that I'm not going to fall over on.
[00:36:02] Michaela: Or an outfit that's not super tight.
[00:36:04] Lori: I have this other theory where our kids are, I teach it. I feel like we just keep our kids alive and give them food and show them the world and they teach us all the great things. And my oldest son is like a Yogi is just super into Yoga and meditation and really has taught both my husband and I he does a practice at lunch every day and I do one in the morning now that I literally can't imagine the day without.
And this is something that my kid, that I had when I was 19, showed me The whole, this is our body. you know, it's not us. That all helps in all that too. And cleaning out the closet of the four inch heels and things like that those things can create so much space, there's a lot of freedom in that.
[00:36:47] Michaela: And, having my uniform for tour like these are the four outfits and I'll switch them up but comfort shoot for like, press or, an album like, you get really like, done up, you never get done up in real life. He was like, even on stage, so like, I've been like thinking about that.
I'm like, yeah, why don't I just show up in the way that feels the most comfortable rather than like doing this thing that I think I'm supposed to, how I'm supposed to present myself.
[00:37:17] Aaron: Yeah. With the disclaimer, I'm not saying that you don't look beautiful. I just want to save myself into a microphone.
[00:37:23] Michaela: No, he's always like, don't wear makeup.
[00:37:26] Lori: I think that if you like that like we all know lots of people that they're really good at that
you know, when you look at an artist, a woman that's headlining a big show, we've all been on the road with these people they have about an hour and a half of hair and makeup before a meet and greet, before VIP, before, and the guys are just like, throwing their, you know, like, or when I go somewhere with my husband, buy a dress, and he's like, what am I going to wear?
I'm like, What? You're going to wear your black suit that you wear to everything that looks great no matter what. That's
[00:38:00] Lori: but some people do love that, and they love that part of it, and I'm sure it
becomes a
ritual and all that.
[00:38:05] Michaela: but some of us don't. So the challenge is for those of us who don't to feel okay with I cannot for the life of me learn how to do makeup beyond what I have on right now.
[00:38:15] Lori: Me neither.
[00:38:16] Aaron: It is pretty obscene. The discrepancy between.
Men and women though, think just the two of us were talking about, that discrepancy It must have been like last summer or so and Justin vernon bonnie there and aaron desner from the national have this band called big red machine Which is incredible and they write beautiful music and they have guests on there and they put out a new record and their press photo is like behind Aaron's studio like in the woods in the Hudson Valley and Justin Vernon is wearing a sweatshirt Like a hoodie with it pulled so tight that you can you can't even see like his face and he's just standing there And they're just
[00:38:47] Michaela: wearing like sweat shorts.
Yeah,
[00:38:49] Aaron: like sweat shorts And it's like somebody probably took the picture on their iphone and put like a weird filter on it They got from like a free app
[00:38:55] Lori: to be a minimalist
Oh, I want to be one so bad But I read this book and it explained the the silent to do list when we have to manage our clothes when we have to manage You These things that we have too much of it, so we have to manage it. And if we just streamline these things down, you know what I mean? if we just show up to the photo shoot with our own clothes and say, I have three outfits, gimme three different places to stand. I've been lucky where I get to work with Becky Fluke, who does my photos usually, and she's.
The best. And she's one of my best friends. So she can tell, but it will come through if I'm uncomfortable, it's going to come through. And some people love all those things, but if you don't, and you sort of strip back as much as you can, or, send off to goodwill as much as you can, that you don't need, that someone else is going to love.
I think it gives you space for more creativity. I think it gives you more space of those things and you that fill up. That you write about because that's what we do as creative people or I always tell my kids, I'm like, don't forget about this. I like to do
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:10] Aaron: good now? And they're like, yeah, I feel good. Cause you cleaned my room. I'm like, yeah,I love that concept of a silent to do list, because it's, so true. you know, all, all our tech issues starting this episode aside, when you look at a computer or your phone and it says, you know, there's this much storage left. And it says like other, and it's, 60%, but you can't figure out what the other is like that happens in your brain too.
It's like the
story of my life. You know, somebody,it was last year,was listening to a podcast and I heard somebody say that your brain is for having ideas, not holding ideas. And that was like, so powerful to me. And since then I've been trying to like, have more spreadsheets have more just lists of like, exporting things out of my brain and even if I do just remember it without that, I don't have the silent stress, the silent to do list of remembering that.
And it has been incredibly freeing.
[00:40:57] Lori: Wow, I love that. As soon as you said that, my brain was like, that's why I have all these notebooks
[00:41:01] Michaela: as a songwriter, like I do a lot of creative coaching and, songwriting instruction and stuff. And I'm always like, don't be afraid you can't like sort the ideas out in your head and like try and filter it before putting it on the page. I mean Maybe some people can but I just feel like getting stuff out of your mind and then sifting through is like great in life and great in creativity let it be out there.
Stop holding it inside and trying to like filter and judge and organize in your mind.
[00:41:31] Lori: Yes, I'm not good at that anyway some people can't i've written with so many people Because i'm sort of a slave to my computer I need to hear the song all day over and over again And I need to stare at the words and I write with so many people they're just like looking The ceiling and they remember, it's astonishing to me, the millions of different ways that people can write songs.
and when somebody can do that and just hold the song in their head like that, they're like, no, if I look at it, we'll mess me up. it's just so wild how different we all are, but we're all the same, but it is, that is a thing for me.
I'm an, list maker and then I redo my notebooks cause I can't stand my handwriting and like all these things. But I, like a internal fight I have with myself all the time. But I feel like, because we have this outlet, it's such a blessing that lots of people don't have,
Mm
know, My kids that are in Nashville that are, driving lift or bartending still you know, it doesn't matter how you pay your bills
but you get to write songs every day. you're still doing music you have to supplement. Yes, I get it. in a way we all do, but your goal was, for music to be this huge part of your life. And guess what?
Music is a huge part of your life.
[00:42:46] Michaela: Yeah. Gretchen Peters was on here. And um, we've heard so much feedback from people of how helpful it was She talks about how when she was coming up that her goal was to make a living as a musician and a songwriter. And she was like, today when I'm, Teaching and mentoring younger people.
I would not tell them to have that as a goal. I would say, do whatever you need to do to make a living, have whatever other job you need to make sure you're taken care of, and then do everything you can to give as much time to music. And we just hear from people all the time, like how. There's so much identity like, strain attached to money coming from creative work to validate the title of songwriter or artist or musician and hearing from people saying like, man can't do that.
Those things are like, so out of our control in so many ways. It's really reassuring. And one thing I'm dying to know, because your career looks like, and you've said it multiple times, like how lucky you've been, have you had any moments or things that stick out to you as like, crossroads or deep disappointments or obstacles what you would maybe at one point have called a failure challenges because obviously when you read a Wikipedia page, it's like well, they've just been kicking ass for years.
Ha, ha, Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha,
[00:44:06] Lori: Yeah. Who does those
[00:44:07] Michaela: ha. Ha, ha, Ha. Ha, ha,
[00:44:10] Lori: Yeah. I mean, I've had
things, mostly it's songs, I'll be sometimes disappointed about a song and everybody that I know that writes a lot of songs also has a lot of songs that, just, really means something to them, but they haven't found, a place for it in the world other than, which is why I always tell great young songwriters dude, just put out a little record.
the good thing about everybody being able to make records now is that everybody gets to make records now. And at least, you find That song that means so much to you. It finds some sort of voice in the world. so mostly it's over songs, but what I realized about what I do is I do like doing shows, but I don't love it the way, this is another thing I learned during COVID, there were my friends who were like secretly happy that we were stuck in the house.
And there were my friends who were like, just Dying because they couldn't do shows anymore and I remember talking to my husband about it and I fell into the category of secretly happy that I couldn't leave the house I remember talking to Jean about it and he said well don't you miss shows and I was like, I don't know What's wrong with me, but I don't really miss Shows I don't love making videos in my basement, but I don't miss shows And it's not the show itself, but all the other things right
[00:45:26] Aaron: when I was trying to explain how I felt to Jean I learned that when I do a show I want somebody to come up and tell me that they like The song, but I don't want them.
[00:45:37] Lori: to tell me they like me. that makes me really uncomfortable if somebody says that I just think oh, but you don't know I'm, really a terrible person like you don't know like whatever. I like If you would really like me, but I want you to like the song Cause I know if you like the song, you really like the song.
And I don't know what that's all about, for me, I think I love my career. I love the fact that I've been able to do this, but I really love. And get excited about songs. So for me, it's always, if there's a disappointment andit's usually around a song, I've said no to lots and lots of things as everybody has to over their career.
But I don't ever remember any of them. Like If you ask me right now, what's one thing you said you couldn't do? have no idea. Let it go. I just have let
it a tour opening for someone that you love, but you're going to be gone for three weeks. I can't do that.
never going to be able to do that. then I forget all about it.
[00:46:32] Aaron: I resonate with that. I feel the, the same way. Like,
[00:46:34] Lori: not me . '
[00:46:35] Aaron: cause I, I spent, When we moved to Nashville, my number one thing was like to be on the road all the time. I was, you know, a sideman. Drums were my first instrument, so I was, trying to play with everybody that I could and saying yes to everything.
While also like getting more involved in the studio, both as a producer and as a session musician. And that was like my dream, but I had all this fear of saying no, and like turning down this work and, you know, around the middle of 2018, I finally kind of started to figure it out. the pandemic really caught my bluff and I've really learned how to say no, but if I think about it, I tangibly remember things that I said no to, but there's no, regret, we had the milk carton kids on here, and Joey explained it in such a great way, he's like, by saying no, you're, focus on what you're actually saying yes to, by saying no to this thing, you're leaving room for so much more, and it's like, that is a really optimistic
[00:47:23] Lori: That's a great way to
That's a great, great way to think about it. it's actually 100 percent factual. That's exactly what you're doing. It's creating the space and then those things will come at you, you know, those things will,you know, you turn the corner and there they are.
what I do now, and I don't know where I learned this trick, but it wasn't me that thought of it. I think I read it somewhere. But when you're, you get an offer for something that's far away We always make a story like, okay, next March. Yeah, I can do that. I can go to Europe next March for 10 days and figure that out.
And then if you think of it, like, could I do that Wednesday? Could I do that in two days? cause in my brain, if I think I'm going to do it next March, I'm going to lose 10 pounds. I'm going to like figure out how to just play one guitar and not have to carry three.
my merch is already going to be there. And like, Mark O'Reilly will be with me and he knows all my songs. Like I make up a story that's perfection for next March And if I think of it can I do this two days from now? Hell no, there's no way I can do that that's really helped me as far as like, Not overbooking myself because the times in my life that or I feel like I got put too much on the kids or Jean or Anybody is when I get out of balance because you fill up those months and then something comes that you really don't want to miss or something comes where you can take the family.
So you take the family and then you drop them off at home and then you go by your, and you're like, why didn't I just stay home with my family? cause we're always gonna get out of balance, but that's when we get in trouble. sometimes I'll just say to Jean like, okay, the month after next is messed up. I'm sorry. Yeah. I like prep him, he won't want to kill me, but that's what we do, but the other side of it you know, I said I've raised my kids with my sister and her kids, they live the next town over and she has a job where she works, 10 hours a day, every day. Mm And every single day of her life is the same thing. She doesn't have to worry about scheduling, but she has, yeah. No freedom, in that way. She has a huge job And you end up out of balance no matter what you're doing She ends up out of balance in a different way than I end up Out of balance and she's juggling kids in a different way than i'm juggling, we're all juggling
Every parent in the world is juggling.
[00:49:36] Michaela: yeah, there's different pros and cons to each of it. I always say that when I'm like, we might not always know when we're going to get paid, but like we have flexibility of like if our daughter is sick and has to stay home from school, like I'm not telling a boss, it's a pain in the ass, but like we can move things around and we're together so much but the like overscheduling and wanting to go and be on tour is something that I definitely struggle with because.
I'm like a little chaotic like calm and peace makes me anxious. So I'm like,
[00:50:06] Lori: Oh, really?
[00:50:08] Michaela: yeah, I love writing songs so much, but I love writing songs to then have. The experience to perform them I know that like I need the experience of Writing those songs, but like I also just love the travel I grew up a military kid So I moved all the time And I start feeling crazy if i'm Home for like a month straight and he's like dude You can't do this all the time, especially now that we have a child like, but don't you guys want to fly with me to here and then to here?
And then he's like, and we're going to be schlepping merch and a toddler and a guitar and I'm like, yeah, it's no big deal, right?
[00:50:50] Lori: that's what I mean. That's the story. We like it seems easier in our head like this past fall I went out with brandy clark and it was like meeting the bus Once my stuff was on the bus, it was fine, but like
I have a guitar strapped to a guitar
strapped to a merch case.
And I look at myself and I'm like, how did
Yeah.
cause I'm not out of Nashville where the bus is leaving. You know what I mean? It's like all those things. Like you don't put it all together until you're trying to get to Logan airport. And like, people were backing away from me
Oh, yeah,
[00:51:19] Michaela: yeah
[00:51:22] Lori: where are you going?
[00:51:24] Michaela: a three week tour where I was solo touring and they just came with me us two in our two year old and we were like renting cars taking trains
[00:51:33] Lori: Yeah.
[00:51:34] Michaela: and flying in between countries and we had a car seat a stroller a guitar a merch suitcase.
it was Mayhem, but it's also so fun, right?
[00:51:46] Lori: well, wait a minute. Let me ask you, when you look back, you must think like, how did we actually do that? Because I've looked back on things, you know, like driving, to the Iron Horse, which is 105 miles from my house. Yeah. And always driving back.
I've driven back after a show in Philly, Like finding somebody to drive with me, and he can bring his dog. That's cool. But I need somebody to drive all the way back from Philly because I need to be at a baseball game at 10 in the morning. you look back and you're like, that was mental.
How did I do that? But you do it because there is some sort
of,
[00:52:20] Michaela: love it.
[00:52:21] Lori: yeah.
[00:52:22] Michaela: I still love it. I mean, anytime I take a band out, it's insanity. Like the last tour we did before COVID leading up to COVID was like cross country, West Coast. There were five of us, no TM, I was selling my own merch. We were doing insane drives, driving through the night, not sleeping.
And I look back on it. And I remember coming home being like, My adrenaline was insane to sustain me through that I also like really miss it We also did a two week tour when our daughter was 14 months. I had a broken foot We took a band in a van Flew cross country for a one off to play Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival from New York and then I played my last show and then you guys drove the van Home and we got up at 3 a.
m. So that Georgia and I could fly home So she didn't have to do the drive from Albany to Nashville, and I'm like, that is actual insanity. But I also I'm like, it was so fun. And the shows are so great. I was delirious. We were exhausted.
[00:53:19] Aaron: And this is why I spend most of my time in the studio because we talked about that like, the shows are fun, but I'm thinking of like, okay, we played in DC, then we played in Philly, and then we played in New York, then after the show in New York at one in the morning, I dropped everybody off.
At the hotel, and then I drove our van to a friend's house in Brooklyn so that we could park the van with all our gear in it, and then we woke up at 6 in the morning to go to JFK to fly to San Francisco, and then flew back, and like, I think of all of those logistics, and I'm like, I'm proud to say like, we did that, but I'm not excited to do that again, ever.
We don't need to.
[00:53:50] Lori: Well, plus you're the drummer. You have the most stuff to catch.
[00:53:53] Aaron: Yeah, I do, exactly.
[00:53:55] Lori: Yeah, my
drummer is John Sands, and I'm always like, John, I'm leaving. I don't know why my guys go anywhere with me. I'm like, how are you guys still doing this? Like, how are you not sick of me yet?
we've been in a bus once, you know what I mean? and I don't even know if a bus is better to be honest. it, sometimes it's probably not, I think that's why if we have A practice of something that is, at least this is the same every day.
Like watching my friends on the road warm up has been like a big wide. awakening for me this past year. Brandi Clark is so dedicated to her vocal warmups. And I'm like a person that doesn't smoke cigarettes, but always like steals a cigarette from a smoker in regards to
vocal warmups. I stand outside the hall and I like, I just copy whoever's like in the other room like, uh,
it's terrible. But those things
it means everything. And you know, I do this breath work thing that, I think has strengthened my lungs that I don't think I would have got through last year and I stopped drinking and it's like wow, that's a huge difference suddenly.
but, yeah, we always look back and be like, what were we doing?everybody's life's that way. Everybody's life has a version of that same story.
[00:55:06] Aaron: yeah, throughout this conversation you've talked so much about space and like creating space and then also when you're talking about kind of like the trajectory of your career and keeping going, you just, luck and then having somebody on the other side be like, take one more step, take one more step.
And just those little tiny they're small markers that are easy to miss, little signposts along the way that are like, yes, this is the right path, or, hey come this way a little bit. And I can't help but just draw the connection of like, I think you need to be able to create that space to see those little things along the
[00:55:36] Lori: Totally. you know, I'd like to say, Oh, I'm so smart. I always surround myself with people that are better than me, buteverywhere I went, there was a bunch of people better than me, and I still do that. music has, Brought me my greatest friendships.
I know people through music that there's no way I would know otherwise. And that, I love like family. Like I just couldn't imagine I would be the person I have grown to be without these people in my life. and that's all because of. music, If I did work at target, which I think I would be good atI wouldn't know Hillary Lindsey and Brandi Clark and Liz Rose you know, Liz Rose is like a sister to me. And so it's Hillary, you know, like, can't live without them now. and that's all because of songs, music.
It's
[00:56:21] Aaron: beautiful. It is really beautiful.
[00:56:23] Michaela: Man, we're so lucky. We are.
[00:56:25] Aaron: Yeah. With that, I think we're really lucky to be able to get to sit here and have a conversation like this. Yeah. With you. So we
[00:56:32] Lori: thank
[00:56:32] Aaron: you for carving out the time in your day to sit with us.
[00:56:34] Lori: No, I was really looking forward to it and I love your show and I love the way you see, what we do and sort of explain it, in a way to ourselves. I always say that when you do an interview with someone like, around a record cycle or something, I always learn more about myself.
Like, oh, maybe that's why I did that. And I think that the shows that I've listened to have all been some sort of lesson in them all that Like, oh, I wish I knew that last year. That's going to make things easier next year.
Yeah. I think exactly what you're doing is that when someone says, come this way, you're creating that for all of us.
So thank you.
[00:57:08] Michaela: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I did want to tell you before we part ways. I was FaceTiming with my mom before this conversation and I said, Oh we're, interviewing Laurie McKenna today. And my mom is like, she loves music, but she's not someone who has like artists that are her favorite.
And she said, Oh, I love Laurie McKenna. And I was like, you do? And she was like, Yeah, I love that song. Something about birds. And I was like, The bird and the rifle. And she was like, yeah. And I was like, you do?
[00:57:36] Lori: Who are you?
[00:57:39] Aaron: to your music.
[00:57:40] Michaela: Yeah. was, she was like, I used to listen to it on my walks all the time. And I was like, Oh, on Pandora. And she was like, yeah. Cause she used to listen to. My station on Pandora and I think she got into your stuff and I was like wow mom and I was like Lori has another song that I think you'd really love called a mother never rests My mom was a stay at home mom military wife very difficult life in a lot of ways and my mom goes you're telling me but then she just strokes and that's her rest Because we've made so many jokes which it's morbid cuz My mom's stroke has been completely tragic and awful, but she has maintained, a better sense of humor. we always joke that like she never would rest. we're like, what the mom? You had to go into a coma to get some rest?
And she's like, yeah, I've been needing to sleep for a long time.
[00:58:31] Lori: Oh, wow. That's incredible that she has that sense of humor about it.
I can't imagine hard it is.Barry Dean, who I wrote A Mother Never Rests With small story. He was here writing, and I didn't know we were writing on a Saturday.
I sat him down in here and I said, Barry, I want to write a song called a mother never rests. I had like the first two line, like even when she's sleeping, she's thinking, and I said, but I got to go to Megan. My daughter's name is Megan.
I have four boys and a girl. And Megan was playing a sophomore game. I said, I'm just going to go drop her off. and I'll be back in like 15 minutes, just dropping her off. The coach will take care of her. And I was gone for an hour and a half cause she had to pitch the game and you can't leave.
When your daughter is pitching the game the whole time I'm like trying to like give signs to the coach like Get her out of there, like I gotta, I gotta go never took her out of the game So I come home an hour and a half later, Barry's been sitting in my basement by himself with my dogs and like other children like Lurking around and he's such a saint.
He had pages And he said, I just wrote down all I could think of about my wife and my mother. he let me sit there and just pick out the lines that I liked. so a father really wrote that song.
Which is what I love about it because it's, true that a mother never rests, but fathers don't really either.
[00:59:45] Aaron: also amazing that you as a mother we're definitely not resting in the act of writing that song so
[00:59:52] Lori: it was like the funniest story because she was never pitching until that day, but there again.
Tell your mom I'm thankful. When you started telling that story, I thought you were going to say that she thought I was Lorena McKennett because I still get that
Oh No I was shocked. I was like you do
Oh. I'm glad that we're on each other's Pandoras or whatever we are. It's so good.
you guys are great.
[01:00:15] Aaron: Thank you. You are, thank you. You are too. It's been such a pleasure.
[01:00:19] Lori: Thanks guys. Take care.
[01:00:20] Michaela: All
[01:00:20] Aaron: right, Lori. See ya.