Madi Diaz has released 10 records/EPs since 2007, has toured with Kacey Musgraves, Waxahatchee, My Morning Jacket, was a touring member of Harry Style's band, has performed on Fallon, Carson Daly, and countless festivals around the world, and is included on the Far Cry 5 soundtrack. We chat with Madi about resilience, staying focused and driven through a 'cacophony of almosts', putting yourself in the right environment to be creative and productive, songwriters as the backbone of the industry, gratitude for the ability to create in the moment, being pulled off stage after 1 song as a solo opener at Wembley Stadium, and a whole lot more.
Madi Diaz has released 10 records/EPs since 2007, has toured with Kacey Musgraves, Waxahatchee, My Morning Jacket, was a touring member of Harry Style's band, has performed on Fallon, Carson Daly, and countless festivals around the world, and is included on the Far Cry 5 soundtrack. We chat with Madi about resilience, staying focused and driven through a 'cacophony of almosts', putting yourself in the right environment to be creative and productive, songwriters as the backbone of the industry, gratitude for the ability to create in the moment, being pulled off stage after 1 song as a solo opener at Wembley Stadium, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are in the second year of the podcast, no signs of slowing down. really grateful that you guys are still with us.
[00:00:20] Aaron: Yeah, it takes a lot to put on even a small show like ours.
The fact that you guys are here means a lot to us. And if you've heard an episode before, you know, we say things like, this show is for our community, from our community. And so as our community, we have a couple asks for you to Continue the show down the road. They are basically subscribe, subscribe to another thing and share.
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word of mouth is the best way to get more listeners. And the more listeners we have, the more guests we can have, and it turns into a feedback. Loop like that. And lastly, the second subscribe would be our Patreon. It costs money to make a podcast and streaming podcast plays absolutely 0 and 0 cents.
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If that intrigues you. There's more about that in the show notes below.
[00:01:38] Michaela: And one of the things we pride ourselves on for this podcast is that we are not music journalists. We are musicians ourselves. So instead of thinking of these as interviews, we think of these as conversations that we would have if we were just sitting around the dinner table and were able to relate on the shared experiences of the honest realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art.
[00:02:01] Aaron: And those realities, as we all know. Is that it's absolutely crazy thing to do. most of the things in this industry are completely out of our control. And so we focus our conversations on what is within our control, being our mindsets and headspace and the tools that we found to stay sane while we are building this career around our art.
And we've distilled all of that down to the thesis statement. What do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to ask that question of Maddie Diaz.
[00:02:31] Michaela: Maddie Diaz is an incredible singer songwriter. She is based in Nashville, but originally from Pennsylvania. She's also a personal friend, so this was especially a fun one. I think we laughed quite a bit. Quite a bit. But Maddie she's been at it a long time, we address this and she has had an incredible last few years, and we talk about what it takes to stay in the game and stay committed and Weather all sorts of ups and downs.
we didn't even talk about all of her highlights because we typically don't talk about the career stuff, but Maddie has written songs for people like Maren Morris little big town. She has toured opening for people like Casey Musgraves, my morning jacket, Waxahachie, Harry Styles, and then was.
Invited to join Harry Styles band she's done a lot of crazy cool stuff,
[00:03:24] Aaron: but it hasn't always been crazy cool stuff She's been at it for a long time She has a great sentence where she says that her career is a cacophony of almosts Which is an amazing sentence, but it's so true for so many of us, those of you who are new to the Maddie Diaz world might think wow It's just been great for her and you know It's the Thing that you hear all the time and it's like overnight sensation 10 years in the making we talk about that we talk about persistence.
We talk about how having gratitude can be a difficult thing sometimes
[00:03:55] Michaela: Yeah. Having gratitude for even the thing that maybe you really wish wasn't even in your life and the growth that happens in that. It's a really beautiful and fun conversation. So without further ado, here is our conversation with Maddie Diaz.
[00:04:09] Michaela: if we had constant video and photos of ourselves doing the thing that that we're told we have to do of like making videos and take it looks so dumb.
[00:04:18] Madi: Yeah.
[00:04:19] Michaela: Like your videos look great that you make, but if we had a video of you making your video, it's just embarrassing
[00:04:25] Madi: Oh no, like, let's talk, talk about, talk about the other 22 hours, 21 up those hours. I'm like,
[00:04:33] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:04:34] Aaron: Yep. Is that right? Uh, And then you
[00:04:37] Madi: Right
about here.
[00:04:40] Aaron: man, my favorite thing was, this was like early in the pandemic. It would have been, April, when we still thought it was like, oh, it'll be a couple of weeks and we'll get back to it. It's cool.
some friends mine and I got together and made like this, like, I think it was a fundraiser for Music Cares. And so we got like a bunch of people to send videos of them playing, you know, way before that was a thing. John Oates was part of it. And his performance looked amazing.
He, you know, he was like in his prime. Beautiful house home studio with like a bookcase behind him and it looked awesome And then they sent like another camera angle of like somebody holding like a handheld walking around and in that one you would see in moments his camera was just like step ladder with some books and his phone leaning
[00:05:17] Madi: That's what I'm talking about! That's the dude! That's my dude! That's my dude! Honestly, like, when they were like, we're sending you a tripod, I was like, but you don't like me balancing it on, like, 5, 000 candles and, like, that hairbrush and, like, that jar. That empty jar that used to, or like, the can of beans.
[00:05:37] Michaela: who is we? Is this your management?
[00:05:39] Madi: Yeah,
[00:05:40] Michaela: Okay.
[00:05:41] Madi: Christian,
[00:05:42] Michaela: Or
[00:05:43] Madi: wait, the proverbial, like the powers that be.
[00:05:47] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:05:48] Madi: was enraged with my can of bean prop. internet was like, we're gonna, we need to do something about this.
[00:05:54] Aaron: fans actually started to go fund me for a tripod for you.
[00:05:59] Madi: Send help, send aid.
Oh.
Hi guys,
[00:06:05] Michaela: hi. Good to see ya. Thanks for being on The Other 22 Hours.
[00:06:10] Madi: here I am.
[00:06:11] Michaela: It's always a little funny when our friends are on like I guess that's kind of how we started this But now we've been so deep into it that we have like people that we don't know. so Yeah, switching into like, friends in real life,
[00:06:25] Madi: we're just vibing
[00:06:26] Michaela: talk about stuff that maybe we haven't talked about. anyways you're home right now.
[00:06:31] Madi: right now. Yeah.
[00:06:32] Michaela: And you haven't been home that much this year, right?
[00:06:34] Madi: No, i'm leaving tomorrow morning. Like I feel like I just no joke in the last three days was like I'm getting the hang of this home thing and now I'm packing my suitcase and doing my best to not like just disassociate while
trying to find enough socks to make it through whatever.
Yeah.
[00:06:50] Michaela: I mean, That's a good place to jump in if you feel comfortable, on a personal side, you've shared over the past some years how touring is not your favorite thing, but it's such a necessary thing. And how are you feeling now that like, it's such a predominant thing in your life the last couple of years?
[00:07:07] Madi: You know what's crazy is that somewhere around my birthday mid May, it was like the week before my birthday, something shifted on like a really weird, profoundly bottom of my feet, soul level where I was like, Oh shit, I think I like this. I might even go as far saying like, I might love it right now.
Which is totally ridiculous and also just like are you so survival mode you're just tricking yourself into thinking that you love it this is what you're doing and you're just like power of positive thinking into but I don't know what happened happened but like the shows have been feeling really good.
I've been feeling really steady. And really enjoying even like when my ears get fuzzy or like, you know, there's like a weird connection from monitor lands to ear land or like my pedal stopped working for magically no reason. Even all of that stuff, it's such a trip and it's so funny and it's like such a weird thing that this is the job and I've been enjoying it rather than being like, God, and then I have to go out into the world and like, deal with it.
[00:08:14] Michaela: But do you think it's like the, condition of your touring has improved the last few years? Has that impacted your relationship to it? No?
[00:08:23] Madi: No, I wouldn't say that the condition of my tongue has changed I think I've worked really hard on myself and like how I can physically withstand what my kind of touring is. I wasn't sleeping very well and like I've been able to work on the sleep thing and solve the sleep problem a lot of like crazy dietary stuff.
You guys know, like eating out there and physically being out there is exhausting and like, you know, know, when I tour and I'm headlining things it's me and my drummer who also plays bass, who also sings our tour manager, who's also a sound guy, who's also setting up merch.
You know what I mean? It's like absolutely grueling and insane. we all share driving and we're all getting the same amount of fuel and energy and sleep. and we're all trying to do this much. but I don't know.
[00:09:14] Michaela: different than like, for instance, when you're touring with Harry Styles or
[00:09:18] Madi: Well, that is
[00:09:20] Michaela: That's what I mean by conditions your birthday, you were out with Casey Musgraves, So
[00:09:24] Madi: Sure.
[00:09:25] Michaela: have nicer and travel, does that make it more enjoyable?
[00:09:30] Madi: You know what's funny? I was thinking about this I was out with Harry, The band and I would talk about this a lot. The stress levels are so different. It's not like my personal project. So like that in itself is different. I'm just in the band, but I'm like still in the band.
I don't want to drop the ball for him. And like, we don't want to drop the ball for each other. And there are like 80, 000 people versus ,
like, you know, 600, hmm.
you know? So it's like a very different stress level thing. So it's like. I don't want to fuck up for 600 people versus I don't want to fuck up for 80, 000 people.
And then like, I'm touring in a sprinter van versus yeah, we stay in like nice hotels. the conditions have to be. What they are for those circumstances to make sense. Even, I stay at the holiday and when I'm traveling for myself, if we were like playing with Harry Styles, the holiday and it would be hard.
[00:10:17] Michaela: With the stakes. Yeah. Yeah. The stakes being high.
[00:10:19] Madi: Oh, I thought you were, I was like the edibles. I was like, I know about the bagged hard boiled eggs. I didn't know holiday. And that's
[00:10:25] Michaela: tell me more.
[00:10:27] Madi: What holiday are you staying at?
Yeah, with like,
[00:10:29] Michaela: the stakes are pretty good at the holiday end though.
[00:10:32] Aaron: Yeah, the key is to keep it in the wrapper when you put it in the microwave.
[00:10:36] Michaela: Eww, gross. That with a
[00:10:38] Madi: keep the juices. I can't do it. I can't! Ah!
[00:10:45] Aaron: packaged bag of tuna.
It's like Holiday Inn Serpenturf. It's
[00:10:49] Madi: Let's go surf!
[00:10:50] Michaela: tuna.
[00:10:51] Madi: Holiday Inn Surf and Turf. That is beautiful.
[00:10:55] Michaela: I remember one of the very first tours I went on was with Annie Lynch. And we, for some reason, were like, Bagged tuna would be a great idea. Like, yeah, cause you could just, yeah, you could just squeeze it out onto some crackers and that
[00:11:08] Madi: Ah!
[00:11:09] Michaela: just hung around on the bottom of the car, like
[00:11:12] Madi: Ah!
[00:11:13] Michaela: long, we're like, no, one's going to eat this bag of tuna.
Right. Cause we're going to get sick.
[00:11:17] Madi: a few years ago, you remember I had my can of sardines and my fanny pack when we went on our lady hike. and the crackers and you were like, weird. And I was like, protein. That's some road dog shit. Bagged tuna, hard
[00:11:29] Madi: boiled eggs.
[00:11:29] Aaron: are you cracking cans of sardines in the van?
[00:11:32] Madi: I'm not allowed to do it in a moving vehicle.
Yeah.
[00:11:36] Aaron: Sounds like there's a story behind that one.
[00:11:38] Madi: That's like a group rule. Also like, I am just, not a graceful human being. And like, I will just be wearing whatever it is. Everything.
[00:11:47] Aaron: I wanted to go back to what you were saying about your ears go out, having your pedals go out, the technical. that happen every day when you're on the road. Do you think like, kind of letting that slide has to do with the amount that you're touring right now?
[00:11:59] Madi: I mean for sure it's also just like, I'm 38. I've been doing it for like 16, 17 years at this point. I'm pretty sure almost everything that can happen has happened. even down to when I was opening for one of Harry Styles show at Wembley last year I got through my first song and literally right after my first song there was this giant fry in the PA and I heard in my ears I'm so sorry Maddie darling, going to have to pull you from stage just we're having a technical difficulty.
So they pulled me from stage in front of the whole thing. And I was off stage for 10 minutes because they had just like lost a connection between the PA and the mixing board. like every single night he had like a different person open for him for his, four nights.
So I was the first of I was just like, yeah, it's fine. Like, I'll take it. I'm the Guinea pig. I don't know why this isn't hitting me, but it just like didn't really hit me until like, after the fact That could have been like a major meltdown for me if that were like, 15 years ago But at that moment I was just perfect course
[00:12:58] Aaron: Wow. That's amazing. and then you, I assume got to play your full set after that,
[00:13:02] Madi: I did which was so nice. we were standing backstage and his managers were around and you know, I said to them, I was, holding up my set list and I was like, I can cut two songs. and they were just like no, no, no, no, no. We're so happy. You know, like the place is filling up and we just wanted more people to see you don't worry about it.
And they were so kind that I got to get back on and just play my set. And I kind of was definitely like out of my body a little bit. I was just kind of like in very like. execute performative mode, but his team is just so wonderful. And like, even when I got off stage afterwards, they were just like, man we know a lot of people that would have probably just been like, all right, I played my one song and y'all just take it.
Let's just throw a DJ on.
Yeah. Yeah. Well that's
[00:13:43] Michaela: also a testament in an industry that's so obsessed with like youth and everything happening really young value in big opportunities coming when you're seasoned, when you have a lot of experience and are not super green getting that moment after doing this for 15 years versus getting that moment when you were like 20 years old,
[00:14:04] Madi: Totally.
[00:14:05] Michaela: cool thing.
[00:14:06] Madi: I can't say that I always am so cool about things, I had the opportunity to play Fallon at the top of the year on the day of the record release. And that was a total out of body experience. I think the week up to it, because it was in front of me and because you're putting out a record, there's so many things that are building up to this moment.
And. it probably went about as well as it could have given everything that was around it. But there are definitely moments where I'm always going to wish that I had done better,
Yeah, of course.
[00:14:36] Aaron: Are there things that you have found? through all these experiences help you get to a spot to be able to step into one of these objectively stressful high pressure high stakes situations and be able to show up as you because anybody that's heard any of your songs knows it's not just like i'm just gonna go up here and sing a song like there's some digging that's involved to
[00:14:59] Madi: man,
[00:14:59] Aaron: and play those songs are there things that you do beforehand to get inside yourself.
[00:15:03] Madi: I think I'm just really trying to enjoy every single time. I step on stage lately I've really been in like a, big. Gratitude space I really try to like, drink in the soundcheck whatever kind of day I've had There are too many things going on. You can't address everything. Something is falling apart. this person has been trying to get ahold of you for like two weeks or like your family is pissed off at you for whatever reason, there's, sometimes there are just like 5 million things going on.
And I really try to still go like, I still love singing. It feels so good in my body energetically. so lucky to be able to like, use this moment as an outlet for whatever emotion it is that I'm feeling in that present moment. that really locks me into my gratitude.
And that really locks me into being present on stage. I have so much more forgiveness for myself I don't know, when, like, something fucks up, there's so much more humor around it than it used to be, instead of this total panic, like fear of too much vulnerability and then you show your ass to everybody and then everybody's see, you're just as much of an idiot as I knew you always were.
You know what I mean?
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:07] Aaron: I've heard somebody related to like why when you see a picture of a statue of a Buddha. He's always smiling and people are like why is Buddha always smiling? And it's because he understands that life is inherently suffering. And so when life throws you a curve ball and it sucks.
He's like, see, it's exactly how it's supposed to be,
[00:16:22] Madi: Man,
[00:16:23] Aaron: to that on the road. Everything is going to mess up. So when it does, you're like, yep, this is what it
[00:16:29] Madi: did hear that laughter is a trauma response. And I was just like, I mean, come on, don't take laughter from me too, man. Like just me, let me have that one. It was working so well.
[00:16:42] Michaela: But again, I think it's like a reference to experience of your body learns maybe if I put so much weight on this experience and I think this is it, I'm devastated when it doesn't go as I think it's going to, then when you live long enough and do enough that you see like, Oh, the world didn't end when that didn't go as I hoped.
[00:17:02] Madi: Exactly.
[00:17:02] Michaela: My career didn't end when I thought it was for sure over there's just this Belief that builds of oh you can recover and then the weight kind of lessens on everything Yeah
[00:17:15] Madi: morning and It'll be in your body and you're still here. And I hope it's not the last time I do TV. I don't know if it will be, I just like, to think that it's not the end of the book, it's just a chapter and there's so much more to all of it.
[00:17:26] Michaela: I wanted to talk a little bit about your journey because before we do these podcasts I always do a little bit of research just basically Wikipedia and googling and stuff
[00:17:36] Madi: not
Wikipedia.
[00:17:39] Michaela: Wikipedia is always interesting because you can't trust it, but it's just these are what random strangers think is important about this person.
it's like a little bit of a weird inaccurate resume, so you went to Berkeley, but then you dropped out of Berkeley because your career started, Is that correct?
[00:17:53] Madi: Nothing had happened yet. at that point, I just was tired of working full time as a bartender and school costing so much. And like. not being super into it.
[00:18:02] Michaela: so then you started putting out music and as a musician. Is that correct?
[00:18:07] Madi: think I had a record's worth of songs at that point and kept my bartending job and playing out in New York at the Bitter End or the Living Room, once a month. my friends and I would drive down and we'd Either play an open mic or we'd have like a scheduled show But I just routinely went down there once a month I think I was just giving myself some sort of checklist of like, you're putting yourself out there, right? You're doing what you should be doing. Right. I had dropped out of Berkeley when I was around 20 doing that kind of once a month since I was like 19.
Taking like the Chinatown bus from South Station down to New York and getting off at Chinatown and walking on my banger thing over the Brooklyn Bridge.
Oh yeah.
Oh my god.
[00:18:47] Aaron: it's a little side note. cause we lived in New York. I would take the bus the opposite direction and take that to Boston. And there was one time we were going up and it like took forever and we were in Framingham or something like right when you first start to get into like, Outskirts city of Boston and the bus kept trying to take an exit and everybody on the bus like no keep going like He thought we were there it was like suburbs, and it
[00:19:07] Madi: the happenin place.
[00:19:08] Aaron: like this exit and everybody's like no
[00:19:12] Madi: if you caught the last bus home, there was always the chance that the bus would only have one working headlight and you'd be going like 40 miles an hour for six hours back to Boston, riding the fucking rumble strip. Yeah, mm
so you really tried not to make that last bus.
Like you really tried to make like 11, not like 1am.
[00:19:32] Aaron: yeah, exactly,
[00:19:33] Madi: my God. But yeah, I, from that point. I met my first manager, just complete happenstance. Like she was seeing another artist that was playing after me, but came early, caught my set, ran up to me, gave me her business card, and then I signed a really bad publishing deal that was deeply and contractually and soul binding that almost ruined my life.
And the rest is history.
It's been so glamorous ever since then. friend Steven and I actually do talk a lot about, cause Steven went to Berkeley for all of, I think, six months or something like that. And we both talk about like the many instances in our careers where we've been like, Oh my God, you're like so lucky that you have my phone number because I'm about to be like literally unreachable.
Enjoy it now. This is just, this is it. Um, yeah.
[00:20:20] Michaela: getting to that
I feel like from what I was gathering is that like from a young age, there have been multiple moments where it's starting or
[00:20:28] Madi: Oh,
[00:20:29] Michaela: to happen.
[00:20:29] Madi: my whole entire career, I feel like has been like a cacophony of almost
[00:20:34] Michaela: Yeah. a genuine like, though, which is very, super fortunate and At this point, somehow we've all stuck around for long enough that like some of our friends are running these major companies and we're still here and like, we'll all find ourselves as fly on the walls and these awkward industry moments and just, There are these islands of respite and like these, relationships that I've kept with some of these people. and I feel really lucky to have actually built the community that we have and the career that I have. I Do actually call me fucking crazy, which is probably absolutely also true, but I do think there's something sustainable here for me, we'll see.
what I was wondering, of what has been your source of handling the disappointment and like continuing on because when I think of you, I always think of just what keeps you going when you've been knocked down so many times, Maddie?
[00:21:31] Aaron: Jesus.
[00:21:32] Madi: Oh
[00:21:33] Michaela: How have you not given up on yourself?
[00:21:35] Madi: man, it is, it's funny. I was just thinking about this too, because I feel like I'm trying not to get super turned off by like Social media's obsession with resilience and insecurity and vulnerability this storyline I just used to really hate this part of myself and here I am showing it to all of you and it's a big deal.
to show each other these parts of ourselves feels like I'm flashing everyone. Um,
But you know what I mean? It's, a really beautiful thing I don't always love that like part of my storyline is you're just so resilient.
part of your thing is that you're just so scrappy and punky and that you can start the car with some bailing twine and some duct tape and a book of matches. I'm like, I don't love that about myself. I would like to just have a car that works. That would be awesome.
[00:22:20] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Michaela: Yeah, but I do think it is inspiring to be someone who doesn't give up. that it's not giving your power to other people. And I teach a lot of like, songwriters And I, always have Examples of people who are like, look at them and look at them.
And especially for women and age and all of that shit. as much as it might be annoying, You're an inspiring example because I vividly remember sitting on your couch, maybe five years ago. And you saying to me I might just have to accept that it is not in the cards for me, that I am not going to have a solo career.
Do you remember that day?
[00:22:57] Madi: that actually kills me
[00:23:00] Michaela: And I've thought about
[00:23:01] Madi: Uh,
[00:23:02] Michaela: time I had just signed a record deal and had put out my record desert dove and was starting to tour. I was feeling really good about myself. And I was like, things are going great. And you were feeling I just made this record.
I can't get a deal. I can't get a booking agent. And you said to me I might just have to accept this And then I remember you also said i'm so glad it's going well out there for you Michaela because it does give me hope that it's out there for me as well
[00:23:27] Madi: ha, ha,
[00:23:28] Michaela: has happened in the last years you had just taken that day and been like this is
[00:23:34] Madi: wow.
[00:23:35] Michaela: and i'm gonna accept it and go away You It's astounding what has happened in the past few years for you because you didn't.
And so that's not a dig of you really had shit happen to you. Cause I, feel that way too, of I haven't had a blow up career, but I have a career and I feel like you could easily be like, Mikayla, you've had some hard luck, but
[00:23:57] Madi: that's, and that's it just being able to have a career and I the home that I live in, and that's not small to me as a single woman in, music industry, you know, even the way that I, tour, it's not because.
I think it's cool that I can go out as a duo, it's out of point blank necessity that I tore the way that I tore with my best friend of 20 plus years who knows how to play drums and bass at the same time, because I made him do it one time.
Yeah. And then just the way finance has worked out, it has become, The necessity.
And I'm lucky that I can continue to guilt trip him into doing two jobs It's funny because my mantra used to be like, I want to be able to pay my friends what they're worth.
And I've had to start including in my mantra, I really want to also be able to pay me what I'm worth. I really also want to make what I'm worth. because just paying the people around you is obviously not sustainable. I wasn't able to take care of myself and that was really starting to take a toll. you know, when it comes down to it if the writer isn't healthy, you're not healthy, and if you're not healthy, like, there is no product and no one has a fucking job, which is one of the reasons why Over the break, I need to be more involved in the politics of songwriting songwriters and copyright.
And we all should be because we're the backbone how did this one slide by everybody?
This is crazy.
[00:25:23] Aaron: Yeah. I just wanna take a second to point out in everything that you just said, like. so many, almost in so many starts and stops in your career. But like the fact that you did that and had the resilience to keep going. And then with that had the wherewithal and the strength to be like, I need to pay myself what I'm worth.
Not like, man, I must not be worth that much. Cause nothing has happened yet is like an incredible strength. that's
[00:25:44] Madi: Thank you.
[00:25:45] Aaron: an asset that isn't really all that common, I think it's very easy to be like well, if I was worth something or if my art was worth something, it would have happened by now, so to have that self assuredness and belief in your art To me, it's a signifier of success.
that I try to instill in myself. It's not something that comes naturally to me necessarily. I just want to point that out in everything that we've been talking about. Like, that's, rad.
[00:26:06] Madi: Thank you. Are you guys being so nice to me? Cause you know, I'm leaving tomorrow. I'm just kidding.
[00:26:11] Michaela: But,
[00:26:11] Madi: And now get back out there, kid.
[00:26:16] Michaela: but also like not in a bitter way of like you made adjustments. to prioritize different things where a business that really emphasizes exploiting artists to think that we should be the last ones to get paid.
how many times I've gone on tour and taken a band or done a promo thing and lost money and gone out of pocket because everyone around me, like a label or a manager has said, said it's really important you should have the full band in this. This is an opportunity and like, well, who's paying for it?
Oh, me? Okay. Not the gig. and I just rack
[00:26:45] Madi: Because it's because it's art.
[00:26:47] Michaela: Exactly.
[00:26:48] Madi: like your charities for some reason.
Yeah.
[00:26:56] Michaela: I'm going to believe in myself that I am the anchor of this, whether there's four people around me on stage or one person or just myself and believe that will be enough because I need to also make sure I'm taken care of.
And not go bankrupt, making these decisions because I think it's going to pay me down the line, which maybe it never will. so how do I show up for these moments and be a snart, a smart business person? Ha, That values myself and also maybe pays the one person a little better than spreading myself thin on having five people in the band.
That's just the economics of the touring industry that I think a lot of people overlook am impressed when I see more people being like, I can't bring a band I used to go into debt all the time to bring a band and now because we have a child, I'm like I can't.
I think that actually has more positive impact in your life that maybe isn't as quantifiable, but I'm making money. Somehow because I'm not taking a five piece band for everything we still put on a good show but something energetically happens when you get to a place where you're just like No, i'm not in a place of deprivation anymore or like no i'm good with making these decisions for what's best for me and not what i'm told need to do to convince the business and the industry to value me
[00:28:25] Madi: I mean, I've been in therapy for like. five, six years. And to be totally frank, I don't know if I would be in the place that I am if I didn't have someone alongside of me processing every failure just as much as every success and every success, just as much as every failure and then every, like, nothing. You know what I mean? Every small moment or a medium moment or thing happening or nothing happening. I was just talking about it with my therapist this morning, tour takes a lot to adjust to, home takes a lot to adjust to, being in the creative space takes a lot to adjust to, being in a vacation space takes a lot to adjust to like, and everything is moving so quickly and it just, you know, like finding moments and like finding ways to check in with myself and make sure that I'm just not operating out of a deficit has been, how I've been able to maintain any small sense of sanity that I'm holding on to very loosely right now. Just I actually got literally this tattoo. It's hands that are just doing this. And my high school best friend drew it, my friend Megan. And it was just after, Delta smashed my fucking guitar after I had just gotten to Dublin. you know, it was like at the start of this tour that meant so much to me, Casey and I have become close she asked me to open these shows for her. the first shows of the Deeper Well album, an album that means so much to her and only means so much to me.
And feeling like this big moment coming and then starting this tour, limping on some level was really hard. I've just needed to constantly remind myself, to hold things. joyfully, loosely, when they fall into my hands, I'm like, Oh my God, you're in my hands. Okay. See you later. You know, just, accept and release and catch if it's meant to be caught and let go if it's meant to be let go. so much of the music industry opportunity is met with this, Anxiety of I have to do this right. if I don't do this, I'm going to miss this thing. And that means I'm not going to get to where I need to go. that's just the dumbest, most exhausting way to operate.
And it's just not true. which is the crazy thing. I feel like I have to constantly remind myself that or even just give myself opportunities to prove that, you know, for instance, a couple of years ago at this point, when I was just starting out again, history of a feeling had just been released.
I was like on tour with Waxahachie, which was like one of the most dreamy tour experiences that I've ever been on. and At the end of the tour, we were trying to figure out what was next, because that's always a scramble and it's you're only as good as like your last gig or whatever that bullshit is. And like,
Yeah. I got a call that, we had just gotten this tour offer from this artist and like the money was good and like the the markets were good, but like, The music made me want to die. And I was just like, I really want to test myself to like, continue to make choices that I can tell like when I'm rung like a bell with joy, when I got asked to go out on the road with Waxahachie, I was like, yes, like, absolutely. Holy shit. And there was no way I was going to say no, and we've become friends and like, she's the best. And her music is incredible. I want to be surrounded with art and friends and people like that. and that, tour offer was not that. I ended up saying no. And my no was met with okay.
[00:31:51] Michaela: Mhm. Yep. Mhah.
[00:31:54] Madi: feels not great. but it's this funny push pull of trust with management, and your own, Inner peace and your own vision for the thing.
And the shared vision of the thing. And it ended up, both of us, were like, totally no was the thing to say. And then a week later, I got a phone call that Harry Styles wanted me to come up in these shows for him, right around the same time that I would have been out with this other person or on the heels of this other tour, in which case I would have been totally exhausted and drained and maybe not even financially capable of doing whatever that was. without substantial help from like a label or whatever, you know, So I don't know, I'm not saying that for every no, there is a fucking dope gift from a pop star, that's definitely not been my experience either, but I think that just riding the wave, and trying to like, maintain some sort of, inner peep, whatever.
[00:32:44] Aaron: there's something to be said about really paying attention to when is like a hell yes, if it's not a hell yes, then it's a
[00:32:50] Madi: It's a no.
[00:32:50] Aaron: there's a lot to be said about that because we're standing in the middle of these vast desolate salt flats where we can kind of walk wherever we want is like, Am I going the right direction? Wait, should I be going this direction? It's there's these little signposts like you're saying they might be very apparent, like a massive pop star being like, I want you to open these shows or they might be something small where it's a friend that asks you to co headline these shows or something that rings you like a bell and you're like, I'm going to do this.
[00:33:14] Michaela: or even have a value system that the best use of time is only a big opportunity of making money and being in front of people where maybe you said no to that tour and Harry Styles never came along.
And what you really benefited from was being home and you got to write some more songs
[00:33:33] Madi: Or maybe I wrote the song.
[00:33:36] Michaela: Yeah, exactly. But it's always still operating in this, this idea that the thing that should be the priority is big opportunity that success, I'm saying this also because I'm trying to retrain my brain.
Like we
[00:33:48] Madi: Mm.
[00:33:48] Michaela: to Lily Hyatt on this podcast and talking about like 2020 and the pandemic and I was like, 2020, I was scheduled to be on tour all year and had festivals booked a lot of them, I haven't been able to get back. it was supposed to be the best year.
And then as we were talking, Lily was talking about like, All of the positive things that came to her in her personal life
through that break falling in love with her husband and like nurturing home. And I was like, Whoa, maybe 2020 was the best year of my life. I was like, I hung out with friends.
I reconnected with people.
[00:34:23] Madi: Yeah.
[00:34:24] Michaela: went camping. Like
[00:34:25] Madi: Yep.
[00:34:26] Michaela: fun. Like we went on this epic mountain biking trip. I got pregnant, I'm like, fucked up that I don't think of those things as the best or as exciting as but I was supposed to be conquering my music career.
That was supposed to be the best. It's Right. add those other things to a spreadsheet though?
Yeah, exactly.
[00:34:46] Madi: funny that, we're taught to only accept, Success in very specific forms, you know, instead of just being like, so if I'm like an individual person and like, I'm so special and I'm so different and everybody's so special and different, like, of course, my fucking version of success is going to look completely unlike anybody else's.
this is like a major discussion that I'm, mostly having it with myself to be totally honest. I'm having it mostly with myself, but I've been also having it with, my manager and people that are in my creative circle because I'm working on my next record and I'm going like, what is the blueprint of the thing? what is the single cell? the O2 version of what my artist thing is. And, that's scary when you're trying to sell it to like, a business and people. It is funny to me, and this is the cool thing about social media is that I do think that social media completely hacks the fact that like business usually stands in the way of direct art to consumer. I think the conversation that I'm, trying to have with myself and with, my management and my team is so the most important thing is the song. This, song has always been the most important thing. the song is the backbone of this entire thing. And so how do we like distill that and like, get the purest, raw meat version of the song, hmm. Yeah.
like, you know, not With the weird stuff in it, just at like a, ingestible song meat temperature.
[00:36:20] Michaela: you Are you meaning like in terms of like how
[00:36:23] Madi: This is why I'm talking to myself a lot.
Yeah.
[00:36:26] Michaela: Yeah. Are you meaning in terms of how you record it or like you shape your life to be able to get the song?
[00:36:33] Madi: both of those things. I think like being cerebral or like being thinky about music can get in the way You know what? I mean? like, how am I at my most self? how am I not myself? Where am I most my natural self? of just like making sure that you stay in as many like fucking environments that just allow you to be you and not think about it. whether that's on a record or whether that's in a writing space whether that's Oh God, now I have to buy this tape recorder because I'm going to be talking to myself a lot around my house. If I am just talking out loud, then maybe I'm not going to be like filtering things the way that I normally would. If I'm like sitting in front of a piece of paper going like, what's the best next word to write down? Are you guys just nodding? And I sound completely psychotic.
[00:37:15] Aaron: my, my head is running,
[00:37:16] Madi: too.
[00:37:17] Aaron: Uh,
[00:37:18] Aaron: No, what I was stuck on was like the idea of putting yourself in environments that will allow you to create the art that you want to create. you feel is inside you, where, you know, there's another album brewing, can't
[00:37:30] Madi: Yes.
[00:37:31] Aaron: on it just yet, but it's like, okay, how do I put myself in a situation where this will come out, whatever this is we were talking to early on BJ Barham, who is American aquarium.
And he's like, I related to in my younger days, going out with a pan and like hoping to catch some rain. now I can tell when there's a rainstorm coming, and I'm like, cool, alright, and, you set up situation to get caught in the rain, basically.
[00:37:55] Madi: Yeah. that's so good. I think For me, the thing that I'm trying to, unpack, God, I hate these words that are just the most normalized therapy speak. It's just killing me. the thing that I'm trying to undress about my process is that I need to push myself in the pool before I'm ready and then like while I'm swimming I figure out where I'm gonna swim to.
I think that's become part of the process for me
[00:38:19] Michaela: so since History of a Feeling came out. put out another record and you've been on tour a lot and you've been like on the track of and promoting and all that stuff. Before History of a Feeling, at least the couple years leading up, when we met you, you were here and you weren't really touring that much and you were just writing constantly and living.
like how are you balancing now being in like the cycles create enough actual time and also. space emotionally and energetically to continue writing in the depths or is that like not really an issue for you? Does it just always happen?
[00:38:56] Madi: I think that's something that I'm still learning how to navigate is the balance and to, like, catch the energy, in a bottle when I have it, pointed in the right direction when I have it, And I will say I'm fucking grateful that, whatever shift that happened on tour has started to happen on tour so that I come home and I'm like, man, I'm so grateful for this audience.
I'm so grateful that they like, whatever it is that, I'm saying on my records my story is their story I'm so excited that there's somewhere for it to go. And it just makes me want to continue. That's been weirdly like motivating and energizing and that's one of the reasons why it's been so on my mind to like figure out what this next record is because I don't know man the planet is hot and like life is short and like I've been very alone recently and it's been like very nice and energizing and I'm also like what do I do with all of this energy? it's nice to point it, back at myself as opposed to like, aiming it at, the next door neighbor or. Mm
that idea of like focusing energy. I love that concept. okay, so we all have this X amount of energy and it can go a thousand different directions, which it generally has to do on tour anyway, and like you said, like transitioning back to being home or vacation, whatever it is, like a hard transition, whatever it is, different situations.
[00:40:16] Aaron: And so like being able to home and keep that focus on yourself what you're doing. Yeah. You're taking all that same amount of energy instead of it being like dissipated It's very focused and that of energy or whatever You can get much more mileage out of it
[00:40:28] Madi: this is gonna sound totally pathetic, but like, I think that like, on some level I get home and I'm like, Oh my God, it's just me. This is so boring. Um. And then, I start to focus on the music part or like the songwriting part is if I'm focusing on a relationship or like, I've been putting, I've been putting the same amount of energy that I would normally put in like my romantic relationships.
And this is like always the point in my process or my life where like, I would just date whatever person is there they are. and then I'm like, you're, The most important thing. And you're the center of my universe. And then I get wrapped up in the center of the universe. And then in two years, it goes sideways anyway. So I'm trying out this new thing where I'm just gotta be perpetually on tour, until I grow old and die. Just kidding.
[00:41:18] Michaela: you'll create space for that when you're ready.
[00:41:21] Madi: horse in case he's like me too.
[00:41:28] Aaron: Yeah, sounds lovely.
[00:41:30] Madi: I think that's good. I think I love horses. Yeah.
[00:41:33] Michaela: But I do think, I mean, we've talked about this. It's the different facets of our life and trying to recognize. And I mean, you wrote a song about it too, of like, you can't have everything all at once all the time I mean, I hear that all the time and I still have this little voice in my head that's like, could I?
but really, could I try to have everything all at the same time? I do think you can, but what having it all looks like is different than what you probably initially thought what having it all looked like. I have a family and I'm really grateful for that.
that then lessens my capacity and my time and energy to put into other aspects of my life. I cannot have the social life that I had before I had a, child.
[00:42:17] Madi: Yeah. tour the way that I did. I also don't want to but I can still have a career and I can still have friendships everything just looks different.
[00:42:27] Michaela: So it's like understanding and having grace if you're like in a career centered momentum, being like, that's Great for right now there's all these different phases of our lives and it's gonna look different and Maddie you've reminded me of that I remember like when Georgia was maybe like four or five months old that I was having a hard day and Aaron was like go have a drink.
[00:42:49] Madi: It's like, goodbye.
[00:42:52] Michaela: text Maddie and Leah or somebody. and I remember texting you guys and we went out for happy hour. And I remember you said, cause this was right when like shit was really starting to roll for you. And you said to me like, got to remember Michaela, there's aspects of your life and your pace.
Of your career that I covet that look really beautiful to me that I don't have I'm putting all my energy right here because this is what's going on and you might be looking at Maddie being like God I wish I could be doing that but I can't right now but you forget that there's also things about your life that are beautiful like starting a family and again it's the value system that we're like oh yeah we can't do everything all at once you All the same time, and like respecting those phases of our life, wherever they're at.
[00:43:38] Madi: Well, and it's gorgeous that, you have experienced music and touring on the level that you have and you have this full family life and you get to share this, podcast with your husband and meanwhile, I'm like killing a cactus in my living room.
And there's like, a small oak tree that has invaded my front yard that I need to like replant in the backyard. but like, On the other tip, I got to spend some like really good quality time with my dad the other week that we haven't gotten in many, many years and like, yes, that took away from some of my precious home time, but like, we have to do the things that are going to feed us in the future. these moments
[00:44:20] Michaela: you put so much into your songs and your music and you're in a time Where you're really seeing? a response for that and you're building your equity in your creative work you're building all the foundation of wanting to be able to be a songwriter for the rest of your life where you're doing great work.
And so again, it's not one thing is better than the other. always trying to remind ourselves okay, maybe this is what's rolling in my life right now. And I really would love this other thing to roll too, but maybe that's going to happen a little later or maybe when it does happen, it's going to look different and like really trying to value what we've got going on right now.
[00:44:57] Madi: I'm not trying to point this back at any of my Songs, but like, I am constantly telling myself, nothing is a waste of time. Nothing is every fucking vacation, every standstill traffic stop, Oh God, I cannot believe that guy just rear ended me you know, I was at that bar too late hanging out with the blah or like, Oh my God.
We're about to go on tour for another three weeks. Like none of it. Is at all time wasted. it's absolutely been crucial in every step that I've been able to take every painful step, my, my prearthritic step,
[00:45:39] Aaron: love that viewpoint. usually like in a moment of self loathing where I'm like Fuck every decision I've made in my life has led to this
[00:45:47] Madi: this, yep.
[00:45:48] Aaron: I fucked up
[00:45:49] Madi: Yeah, yeah, you're like no, no, no, this is good. This is good. This is good.
[00:45:54] Aaron: yeah, but I mean like what you were saying to me is like the optimistic side of that, you've said multiple times in this conversation, like the gratitude side of that, One thing leads to the next, whether the way you look at life is that it's a Story that you're living out whether you look at it as It's a path that you're walking whether you look at it like deep in some kind of like quantum physics field where there's multiple Realities happening at once
subconsciously choosing that reality.
It's like there is no waste of time
[00:46:18] Madi: gratitude doesn't always feel good being thankful doesn't always feel good Sometimes it's like literally the fucking hardest most painful, you have to choose Gratitude sometimes you don't just wake up and go, thank you.
And I absolutely, there are some days where I wake up and I like, I look out the window and it's like green and beautiful. And I'm like, Oh, thank you house. And thank you tree. And thank you window. But I don't always wake up with fucking like good night moon running through my veins. You know what I mean?
Like sometimes I'm like
[00:46:45] Aaron: Yeah. Well, I mean,
Especially talking about, and you've said this in a few different ways, throwing yourself into a pool and be like, fuck, how do I get out of here? Like having a hard situation that happens without choice, shitty that happened to you, having gratitude for that situation can be really hard, but like those situations that I've experienced like that.
have Made me who I am and like grow so much like these horrible situations that absolutely sucked to live through experience but like I Learned way more from that than like a nice sunny day where I wake up. I'm like, I love my house I'm so lucky.
[00:47:17] Madi: how boring is it when it's just You can predict, you know exactly what you're going to get. So like everything is so safe and you're making like, there's no, juice to that life, you know?
[00:47:26] Aaron: exactly.
[00:47:27] Michaela: I think of my 20s, and I'm like, what happened in my 20s? Not much. That was just like, I was just hanging out. And my 30s, I'm like, holy shit so much has happened. And I've spent a lot of time in the last couple of years wishing all these painful things that happened in my life hadn't happened.
And I don't know if it's Honestly, being on antidepressants or like, being in therapy that everything feels okay right now like, that my mom is feeling more like my mom again after her stroke I just am in a place where I genuinely feel thankful for the really dark, heavy pain.
disappointing, heartbreaking stuff that's happened in my life the last 10 years because I feel good about who I am right now and like, feel like, oh, okay, there's like some understanding that I did not have and I don't think I would have had if everything just went well We think of gratitude and we think of like, I'm grateful for my beautiful this and my beautiful this. And it's like, no, actually, I'm really grateful that. I had the experience of sitting and watching my mom in a coma for three weeks and like do I wish she didn't have a stroke? 100%. But, I actually feel grateful that hard stuff is essential to personal growth.
[00:48:46] Madi: it's crazy that what is it? The darkest before the dawn
or whatever. Yeah. That's just the truest. It just is proven over and over again, but you don't know that the light is coming when you're sitting in the fucking dark and that's the hard part.
[00:48:59] Aaron: For sure. to me, this conversation is completely come full circle now because like we talked about this at the beginning with whether it's things with your ears or your pedal on stage, or it's like the I'm about to blow up, it's gonna happen and then it doesn't. when all that happens for the first time, you're like, fuck, I'm done.
This is it. Yeah. you make it through and you're like, Oh, yeah, Okay. it kind of like defangs it a little bit,
[00:49:21] Madi: Yep.
[00:49:22] Aaron: you get to a point like once you've experienced those valleys, you understand like, this sucks and it's going to suck, but it'll be fine.
[00:49:29] Madi: now you have the fucking muscle to walk out of the ballet because you've been building muscle the whole time.
[00:49:33] Aaron: There it is.
Mm hmm.
[00:49:35] Michaela: There it is, you songwriter. Yeah.
[00:49:42] Madi: I'm gonna walk out the back door.
[00:49:47] Aaron: Wow, Maddie put out a gospel
[00:49:49] Madi: I'm gonna bicep curve my way through the darkness. Into the light.
[00:50:01] Michaela: welcome. You're welcome.
[00:50:02] Madi: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:50:03] Aaron: We'll take 20 percent each and call
[00:50:05] Madi: Easy, easy. Honestly, I think a 3333. That is just a full. Cora. Yeah. Even splits . Who gets the 0.4?
[00:50:16] Aaron: I'll take it. It's fine. I'll take it.
[00:50:18] Madi: It's just these. Yeah, there it is. There it is. 2024. Ugh.
[00:50:22] Aaron: that's funny with people I write with a lot in three ways. I usually end up being the one that is registering. I will say for the record I passed the point for around. I'm like,
[00:50:30] Madi: Oh,
[00:50:31] Aaron: I put it on the last one I'm going to give to them.
I don't always take it.
[00:50:33] Madi: that's really nice. You're like always,
[00:50:35] Michaela: job, Aaron.
[00:50:37] Madi: honestly,
if I'm registering that fucking song, I'm taking that 0.4 service fee. that's what I'm doing.
[00:50:43] Aaron: it
[00:50:43] Madi: I'm like, and service tax. That is correct.
[00:50:46] Aaron: Maybe that's why I'm at where I'm at now that
[00:50:49] Madi: that looming 4 is really, that's making the divot in the bank account, yeah.
[00:50:57] Aaron: hundredth of a percent uh,
[00:51:00] Michaela: Oh man, well I'm sweating because our air c is off, but also because we've been laughing so much.
Yeah.
[00:51:06] Madi: Me too.
[00:51:07] Aaron: time to sit with us.
[00:51:08] Madi: Yeah, I love you guys so much.
[00:51:10] Aaron:
thank you so much. Thank
[00:51:11] Madi: Love you both. Bye.
[00:51:13] Aaron: ya. Bye