The Other 22 Hours

Major Jackson on human expression, stewardship, and art monsters.

Episode Summary

Major Jackson is a poet, author, and professor who is the recipient of fellowships from Guggenheim Foundation, National Endowment for the Arts, Academy of American Poets, Fine Arts works Center in Provincetown, and the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study at Harvard, he has been honored by the Pew Fellowship in the Arts, and the Witter Bynner foundation in conjunction with the Library of Congress, awarded the Pushcart Prize, has been published in American Poetry Review, the New Yorker, Paris Review, Orion Magazine, is an elected member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and serves as the Poetry Editor of The Harvard Review, and is the Gertrude Conaway Vanderbilt Chair in the Humanities and Director of Creative Writing at Vanderbilt University. We touch on stewardship, curiosity being emblematic of being human, art in a time of upheaval, human expression, AI, art monsters, and a whole lot more.

Episode Notes

Major Jackson is a poet, author, and professor who is the recipient of fellowships from Guggenheim Foundation, National Endowment for the Arts, Academy of American Poets, Fine Arts works Center in Provincetown, and the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study at Harvard, he has been honored by the Pew Fellowship in the Arts, and the Witter Bynner foundation in conjunction with the Library of Congress, awarded the Pushcart Prize, has been published in American Poetry Review, the New Yorker, Paris Review, Orion Magazine, is an elected member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and serves as the Poetry Editor of The Harvard Review, and is the Gertrude Conaway Vanderbilt Chair in the Humanities and Director of Creative Writing at Vanderbilt University. We touch on stewardship, curiosity being emblematic of being human, art in a time of upheaval, human expression, AI, art monsters, and a whole lot more.

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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Episode Transcription

[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 109, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Major Jackson.

Aaron: so to continue our monthly series of having these conversations on creativity with non-musicians. We've invited major Jackson, who is a poet and writer amongst many other things, so hold with me as I read down this staggering resume. He is a poet writer, and the chair of the creative Writing Department at Vanderbilt.

has been awarded a Push Kart prize, a writers award. He was honored by the Pew Fellowship in the Arts and the Widow Byner Foundation in conjunction with the Library of Congress. He is a [00:01:00] recipient of fellowships from the Academy of American Poets Fine Arts Works Center. From Provincetown, the Guggenheim Foundation, the National Endowment of the Arts, and the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study at Harvard.

His work has been published by the likes of the American Poetry Review, the New Yorker, Paris Review, the Orion Magazine. He's an elected member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and serves as the e poetry editor for the Harvard Review.

Michaela: And even more than that, that was just like some bullet points, but Major Jackson is, a,

Aaron: revered and accomplished writer, and we had such an incredible conversation with him.

Michaela: It was one of those conversations that I just wanted to continue on and wanted to ask him if he and his wife would come over for dinner sometime.

Aaron: Oh yeah. I'm gonna listen to this one at least four more times.

Michaela: Yeah. But we talked about the uniquely human experience of creating, talked about AI for the first time in this series. Shockingly the ethical and societal importance of art and artists and a civilization, especially in a [00:02:00] time of political and social upheaval and what's happening currently in America, the meaning of your art, changing for yourself and others over time, and the stewardship of mentoring and teaching and how that feeds his creativity Also.

Side note. One of the things that we love about the other 22 hours is the community that we're building through this. And we met Major Jackson when we went to a reading for Maggie Smith, who was a previous guest. He was, in conversation with her at Parnassus and then I asked him to be our guest, which he so kindly obliged.

Aaron: as always, some of the topics that we touched on in this conversation come from direct suggestions from our Patreons, and that's because they get advanced notice of the guests as well as a handful of other Patreon centric things, basically to deepen the conversation and the work we do here about understanding our creativity and building a creative life.

If that sounds intriguing to you or if you want moral satisfaction of supporting the production of this show. That's the only place that you can do that at the moment. [00:03:00] So go ahead and click the link below in our show notes,

Michaela: and if you're a visual person, this and all of our past conversations are available on YouTube.

And without further ado, here is our conversation with Major Jackson.

Thank you so much for agreeing to come on and chat with us. This is very exciting.

Major: Thank you for the invitation and what a great concept.

Aaron: Thank you. Yeah, thanks. I, I will say

I first became aware of you from your conversation with Maggie at Parnassus the way you led that conversation and the questions you asked were just incredible.

And so I'm approaching this with like a little uh, anxiety and a little, a little, I'm a little self-conscious 'cause it was just such a beautiful conversation you guys had.

Major: thank you. I was, know how important she is in the lives of her readers, I remember, reading her way, way back. I have these optics and, you just want to take care of someone's reputation. you know, There's some interviewers, they want to catch you,

you

Aaron: Mm-hmm. like I [00:04:00] never want to be that, kind of talk partner, you

Mm-hmm.

Major: that's what it is to me. So I'm enjoying the partnership already because I met you

Michaela: Yeah.

Major: the kids and.

Aaron: Yeah.

Michaela: I love that. I know you said take care of their reputation, but also just You know, We're musicians and we started this podcast to try and bring forth conversations that we felt like were happening, in secrecy um, that we wanted to bring forward to help build community and, nurture and help other musicians.

And now we've expanded and we always preface it that we're not journalists, we're not, interviewers. So we started this really just trying to have conversation, but we've learned so much. This is our 117th conversation. Congratulations. you. Thank you very much. But that word that you said, taking care really resonates when I think about these conversations we want people to be honest and share what they feel comfortable with, because that feels like how we actually connect.

To each [00:05:00] other but caring for each other like the whole premise of this as our child cries in the background.

Aaron: we like to start with a general question of like, how are you today and where are you today with the, where being, where are you in your creative evolution, creative interest, intrigue,

Major: I had a, good 2025. Thus far we are almost at the six month mark and been a balancing act of work of attending to my creative work, but also the work of others. I'm of the creative writing program here at Vanderbilt, and I take that responsibility seriously 'cause I was a young aspiring writer at one point, and wanna make sure that the quality of mentorship that I received, that I'm passing that on. But also, as you know, as artists this is a kind of a state of its own. And so [00:06:00] you're also educating people into how to professionalize and how to care for themselves. And at the same time contribute wherever they're comfortable contributing at that moment. Creatively where I'm at is I'm working on an anthology that is also a food recipe book, which is

Aaron: mm. interesting because I have to find poems that match, recipes that many of the recipes I've cooked in my house and many I have not.

Major: So this is exploratory in, the best way. I'm also a editor for several magazines, so I'm putting together the editorial section of a literary journal out of Cape Cod,

that's been awesome because it has meant traditionally I would find contemporary writers, in this instance, the publications turning 25 years old. And so we decided to go into the [00:07:00] archives and just finding poems by poets who are household names now in their youth or

Aaron: Mm.

Major: like the writer Dennis Johnson, I just came across, he's a fiction writer, but wrote this wonderful poem. Anyway, I'm just aned

on

Aaron: Mm-hmm. the archives, which is utterly exciting.

That's amazing. hearing you share what all that you're doing, and as I was researching you the list just seems ongoing. Can you give like an example of I can imagine that no day looks the same for you, but I'm curious in like the actual like timestamps of what a schedule is like for you and in relation to that, how your kind of creative brain works within that of like, when do you get to have time to write your own work and how scheduled is that and how much does all of your different endeavors feed each other in that way?

Michaela: I know those are multiple questions, but.

Major: that's great. That's wonderful. My day [00:08:00] typically begins with coffee with my wife. we just make sure first half hour or preferably longer is spent with each other. And the range of conversations goes anywhere from did you call the plumber to, I. I read this poem last night, I want to share it with you to, gossipy stuff too.

that's important. And then typically I have meetings and I work into it. However, if I can, a walk or a bike ride, that's also Part of my day. lately, however, been doing quite a bit of traveling mainly to give readings or talk or lectures. I'd say lately that's always been part of my life, but it seems like there are moments in the year where I can almost bank,

three, four straight weeks in a row.

at least one or two days. I won't be home, but, and this, is [00:09:00] interesting. As may, you know, typically April, it's National poetry month.

On the road. so I'm doing a lot of traveling. Where does the creative work comes in? wanna say that the imagination is even operating when I'm sitting in those zoom meetings, bored out of my uh,

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: bored, but, I'm doodling, I'm writing down words that have come to me, the actual composing. However, Mondays between 12 and two 30, I'm in a session with other poets I who are in California. Washington, dc state of Washington, New York. We hit most of the time zones I push everything aside and there have been moments where I felt guilty not writing. I've had this group, we've been meeting down almost five years now.

Aaron: Wow.

Major: sometimes a year like summer, we're vacationing. for the most part, we've dedicated ours. [00:10:00] I've gotten a book out of it. Those

Michaela: Wow. Mm-hmm.

Major: Have accumulated enough where I can select and include as part of a book. and other times of the year, like summer, I'll be in Vermont where we have a. home in the woods, a little small cabin in the woods is also when I dedicate my time. But it is always a balancing act. And every year I'm just like, okay, I'm gonna pull back from the board work. I'm going to downsize the amount of time that I allot to Y, and Z and live a, quieter life. And always there's some opportunity and this was, owed to my youth.

It's like I was always in that mode of hustling, like saying yes to everything. that has gotten me to where I am now. I'm always looking and then something else comes up and I'm like I gotta jump at it. So most of. I've learned to do is reconcile [00:11:00] that parts of the year I will be writing and typically that's in the, summer and winter breaks. the other times of the year I'm going to be in this role of servicing stewarding this art that I love and the young people who are practitioners coming up. And also with the podcast that I was doing also stewarding and making sure that we not forget this rich legacy

Aaron: Mm-hmm. have. So I'm not sure, you know, unless someone like ties me to a tree,

Mm-hmm.

Major: if ever I'm gonna stop living this life where I'm balancing.

 

Michaela: Yeah.

Major: in my household actually.

Michaela: Yeah.

Aaron: It is for us too. It is both, interpersonally and, just internally for myself, you know, it's like, do I do less better or do I do more? And all of that. And I'm really interested to hear how all of that kind of commingles inside of you and in your existence. cause I know, I have been, I would say for the last, close to like eight years of just cutting things out [00:12:00] doing less, being more and more focused. And this year in particular, I've started to add things back in and finding it really inspiring.

Major: Mm-hmm. Juggling the overwhelm a little bit of, being in so many different places. You know, uh, We're sitting in my studio right now which is 40 feet behind our house, this is where I am most days, but I'm starting to add touring again. And I just had the opportunity to fly to Baltimore and be a guest at the Peabody Institute, which is the conservatory at Johns Hopkins.

Aaron: And I was asked to be on the graduate level panel for their, thesis. And it was just so inspiring to put that hat on and, hear what these incredible students are doing. So that's just like a, homage to the level of things that you're able to accomplish in, any given month.

I'm just really interested to hear how these different directions all kind of commingle inside of you.

Major: mentioned a word that I didn't mention, which is utterly right, is that it is inspiring and as someone whose undergraduate training, I was talking to [00:13:00] someone this morning who I. Is interested getting a MFA in creative writing. And I was telling her, I did an undergraduate business degree. Was I happy? Yes. Was there something about that work? And that, state of mind and being that satisfies something in me. Yes. However, did it inspire me at an imaginative level? It did not. And so the more I leaned into communities that normalize, this restless in me to create, to make, the more I realize like I'm a happier being and you know what? I care. I care about this than I care about that. that caring has gotten me where I am, but also. Got me in trouble in the sense that I put so much effort into it at the expense of my family

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: I care so much. So I I mentioned the word balance, but there must be some other word that [00:14:00] captures, getting into sync with the world around you and your inner self, such that, you know, Robert Frost has this poem where he compares one's vocation what we have to do and avocation what we love to do

Aaron: Mm like our eyesight, it's like a perfect way

Major: of seeing they're one. So I'm thinking a lot about when I say care, the thing that I'm passionate about, we now have this term called art monsters, typically it's used to describe people who want success their art, no matter the expense or the harm done

Aaron: Mm

Major: them.

Aaron: mm.

Major: I know I'm not that

Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Major: Since I've heard that term, I've been measuring my life through this lens of, and it's not even ambition. It's I see myself more as an ambassador, more someone who's in the service. And I think it's intimately [00:15:00] tied to of freedom.

I know that if I am creating opportunities for someone to pursue their passion as a. artist, then I know that what they create is an expression of their freedom of mind, their thought. and somehow we benefit from that as a culture. So that's what I'm, trying to like and emotionally and physically come to terms with what's truly driving me.

Michaela: I love that. also when you're someone, I mean there's the basic requirements of how to build a life as an artist no matter what your medium is of needing to make a living. So having to have the diversity of, teaching and creating all that stuff. But then the other component of how it inspires and feeds, especially if you're someone who is enriched by the connection that is made.

Through the art that we create, where I think not every personality thrives on that. Maybe [00:16:00] some people really would love to just be in that little cabin in Vermont year round and never interact and just write poems,

Major: That

Michaela: those Okay, because she's a poet, right? She's also a poet. Yeah.

Major: Yes.

Michaela: And those poems I would imagine are very different than like yours, for instance, of like whose life is also spent teaching and serving.

And that feeds your work. I think about that. you know, I've been a songwriter and a musician for a long time and I also teach, and I've always taught. And for a long time it was kind of this hidden thing of oh well, teaching was what I do to help pay the bills. And in the last several years I've really learned.

No, no, No. Teaching music and specifically teaching songwriting is not something I do just to make ends meet. I'm like incredibly passionate about it and that passion for it doesn't take away from the actual writing of songs myself that I've realized. I'm like equally excited about both, [00:17:00] and I need both to be able to do either of them.

Major: I love

Michaela: Love

Major: it also articulates for me to kind of teach, as you know, gets you closer to your art. I.

when you have to pass on that knowledge or pass on what, you know, reinforces it's almost like, for the basketball player who's shooting hoops or for anyone who wants to make it almost instinctual teaching, it becomes one of those ways in which we lean, I think, a little bit more informed in our own, practice.

but for me is like, you know, there are some kind of fiction writers for whom the goal is not to teach IE to, sign the, multimillion dollar series of book deals that comes with the film option already, like

Michaela: Right. Mm-hmm.

Major: but those I know who stepped away from the classroom, they miss it.

the grading, the work that can be a chore, no doubt. But they miss the vibrancy of a

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: and [00:18:00] they miss the vibrancy of their students and they miss the vibrancy of someone who has a hunger that they once exhibited and embraced.

Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Major: Would imagine at Peabody, you were witnessing firsthand these young people whose work is just, you know, announces something about, hopefully, you know, the, the, the, goal is to maintain that hunger throughout one's career.

but sometimes you need to witness it in others in order to be reminded,

Aaron: absolutely. And this students at Peabody had three categories. They had to produce and record a classical recording a. Jazz ensemble and then a pop rock recording, which was my domain. And they didn't know when their piece was gonna be called. And we didn't do all three of their pieces in a row.

So these students were all in this recital hall, the three panelists were on stage the, and the students were in the audience, and we were in that room for six hours listening to music and giving feedback. and it was a back and forth, you know, we were there as, the professionals giving them [00:19:00] feedback as if they were trying to release this song or whatnot.

so there'd be some back and forth you know, I would give a critique and they'd ask a why. And so from my side, I'd have to like really drill down. I'd be like, yeah, why? You know? But then also with that, I also was able to be a student because I could hear feedback from an amazing engineer and producer.

From New York that works in jazz and somebody from Minneapolis that works in the classical music as well as podcasts and NPR broadcasts and all that. And so hearing the way they view the art of recording and the way they view producing these different styles of music was really fulfilling all around.

Major: Nice.

Michaela: Yeah. also, what I've experienced, with recording and production and for you with, poetry, what I find when I'm working with other songwriters is that it connects me to the magic of songs in a way that. I don't it as uniquely as when I'm writing my own song or when I'm recording my own song, but when I'm helping someone get to a completed song and going through how do we do that and looking at the craft [00:20:00] and how do we, synthesize all these ideas with melody and, rhyme patterns and all this stuff it energizes me so much that I'm like, oh my God.

Making songs is amazing and like, and it changes the way that I, listen, I listen to music with so much more compassion. So it's really fascinating to me. I'm curious if you feel anything similar or different, in your experience of your relationship to poems, not your poems or their poems, but in general, just poetry.

Major: I have such musicians envy, like you would not believe, like once I even purchased an upright bass and it just sat in my apartment

and I thought someday I'm gonna teach myself or have these jazz musicians in Philly, like teach me how to like, move this instrument

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: others, you know? but the other, part of it, and then I'm gonna take it back, which is, at first, you know, I was thinking about how gorgeously collaborative songwriting is [00:21:00] that we don't have it. But then I'm sitting here thinking like, of course we have it not at the same level. But typically my students come in and when we workshop their poems, depending on how open they are,

I prefer to have students who are teachable, who are not going to dismiss what experience that I'm bringing and knowledge, and deep knowledge of the craft. but recently a, student had a poem featured in a national literary journal, I was so happy to see it because it was something that we worked on

Aaron: Mm.

Major: in the classroom. you don't wanna say, take credit for it because she absolutely wrote this poem. It was just really exquisite. But I could see, I could feel her growth.

From those moments in the classroom. And that's what I take pride in, is helping someone get from point A to point B. But that final poem that exists in the world and I'm curious about y'all, like you [00:22:00] cannot imagine who this poem or this song is gonna reach.

And I think

Michaela: Mm-hmm. kind of magical part of it, is that it's emerging from either a self or in collaboration with others. it's gonna go out and do this thing where people are going to be in touch some part of themselves or think down, some pathway or recall a memory or an image. That is amazing to me. That's pretty powerful.

Oh, yeah. to me, each thing that we create has this whole. Life of its own that we will never know about. And in my experience with songs, I think of just the songs that I've discovered that were recorded in the 1950s or sixties, but I discovered them because it was the first time I heard them.

Mm-hmm. you know, even songs that I've written myself that I wrote 10 years ago and how different they feel and the meaning they have today. For me it sounds so cheesy, but it really does feel like magical. That's what creativity is. [00:23:00] And I was just having a conversation with a friend.

You know, Of course AI is in every conversation out there. Surprisingly, we haven't talked about AI that much on this podcast. But my friend said to me like, personally haven't like really used chat GPT or AI or anything. But she was showing me some of the things that she has used it for and I was like, whoa, that's actually kinda scary.

but she said, she was like, I could imagine if I was a writer or a songwriter how tempting it would be to use it to help. And I was like, I don't know. I think it would have to come down to what your motivation is and what your end goal is. If your end goal is to have something to say, look what I made, even if you didn't really make it because you used AI or to get a deal or to get published because you're looking for that satisfaction and that's gonna help you get there.

Okay. but if your goal is. To actually fully experience the process of [00:24:00] creating something and the struggle of searching for the right words and the right rhythm and all that stuff and, how that changes you. Why would you ever touch AI to bring it into your creativity as a tool? That's what I don't quite understand.

Major: Well, we're facing this now, obviously

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: the literary arts. I've been asked to turn over, not my poems, but my essays to these large language model machines to kind of help. Render me obsolete. No way. No, thank

Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Aaron: Yeah.

Major: Um, but, technology has its uses and I, I don't want to be the, like the people who, when TV was first introduced or when the camera was first introduced, but I do think caution necessary and what you're talking about, which I, so you brought in a, word that I think is important because it is transformative and that is struggle to, struggle to make something, [00:25:00] is the thing that is, shaping us to be better human beings.

And as you said, more empathetic when you hear songs in the world, you know, you're sensitized to that work. and maybe even tapped into some of the suffering that goes into like all this, life that enters into the work of art, right? That. Is also a huge part of it. personally have not turned to chat, GPT to create anything.

And part of it, I'm afraid to even go on it 'cause I feel like it's gonna affect,

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: but, until someone shows me how this can be used and not wither that part of my brain and mind and imagination, it's not gonna short circuit. know what is hugely important in my evolution as a person. I'm not there yet, but I do know people that, are. So I want to give room to people who have found [00:26:00] that comfort, with it. I'm just not there yet.

Aaron: Mm-hmm. curious, a question for y'all. I was thinking about the reach of your art and thinking about audience thinking about whether or not, ' something you wrote 10 years ago. Was it ever something that you wrote earlier or produced earlier, but it's more relevant and important? It's almost to you today, like you were writing something, embedded note or something,

Major: or a sound today you realize, oh, this is what that moment was about. Like you're writing to your future self.

Michaela: Yeah, a hundred percent. I have multiple songs that at the time when I wrote them I, I really didn't know what they were about. And then years later, I've, you know, have some lived experience and then sing that song and I'm like, oh, this. is the connection. most recent example, I wrote a song in my early to mid twenties I think called Is This What Mama Meant?

And it was all about the [00:27:00] wisdom. My mom had always spoken to me through life that life is hard and not in this depressing way, but that you have to realize that that is what life is about and family and relationships and you know, you don't run away from the hard That's when you dig in especially when it comes to if you want a partnership that survives and a family I think it was a really good lesson for me because she was like, some days you're gonna wanna run away, but you don't because of all of the reasons of, like you said, that struggle is what helps us evolve into.

Better, deeper humans. But I wrote that song when I we were dating, we've been together since we were 21 years old, but then we just,

Major: now.

Michaela: yeah. Yeah. I'm actually turning 39 today, today's my birthday, so thank you. And he's turning 40 this year. Mm-hmm. So we're, getting up there.

you know, We had gotten to some arguments at the time. We hadn't, [00:28:00] you know, even dug even briefly, below the surface of what a almost 20 year relationship can bring up for you. And then we have two children now, and when I was five months pregnant, my mother had a massive stroke and like caretaking her and she's living with major disabilities, like so much bigger life.

Stuff that to me now is like life or death, where that was like child's play when I was writing it. And now we just rerecorded the song because well, I wanted to make it together 'cause I, recorded it back when I wrote it with a friend, but I wanted it to make together. And also because I was conscious of my voice sounds different.

My singing voice to me, that life, that experience, that heartbreak, that resilience is all now able to deliver the meaning of that song that,

Major: a gift.

Michaela: yeah, that I just was relaying what my mom was telling me. But now it has a whole different [00:29:00] story than what I was imagining at 24 when I wrote it.

Major: I love hearing those stories. This is one of my kind of go-to question these days 'cause I do think. We are subconsciously, if not you know, preempting some of the situations we may find ourselves in. And that the art in a way, takes care of us. The imagination takes care of us when we, realize that these moments invite more purposeful contemplation around where we are and what we've done to date. So occasionally I'll just flip through old volumes of poems. Most of it makes me wince I was younger and

have the same, you know, but a lot of it I'm proudful of, and I. of it, I go, oh I needed to read this, this is hidden in a way that it wasn't hidden before.

and I'm noticing that, that is cutting across many artistic [00:30:00] disciplines, particularly with my visual art friends a lot of times, particularly those who were utterly ambitious and they just wanted to take the New York art world and the galleries by storm. so a lot of it was ego. And now they're realizing that this catalog that they put together has a more than just careerists it's starting to be a little bit more spiritual

them, which is great.

Aaron: That's what I see in myself when I listen to, older things. I, hear my ego, I hear oddly enough, it all feels manufactured in almost in an AI sense.

every emotion is manufactured. The excitement is manufactured, rather than letting the song dictate that naturally. to tie it back to what we were saying about ai, like that's the difference to me. you guys have both mentioned, the life and the art.

And like to me, I write songs. I'm not a singer. I don't really write by myself. I write with other people. And so like, I. Kind of having the outside perspective on poetry, on songwriting. both of these art [00:31:00] forms the songs that I love and that really like resonate with me.

They take something that's just a normal every day object experience and paint it in such a new light that I've never seen. And that's the beauty to me. And I don't see AI or a computer model being able to do that because even though it's called generative ai, it's not generating art, it's compiling art that's already even made.

Mm-hmm. And, And trying to make it so, so there's no intrigue there. AI to me does not seem like a curious creator. It seems uh, definitive.

Major: of my

Aaron: Yeah.

Michaela: Yeah.

Major: about curiosity as an emblematic of being human,

And that's where, I think they call it the uncanny valley, right? This is where they're saying that the machines, this artificial intelligence, once it starts exhibiting rather than spewing back.

'cause right now it's just giving back

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: even against my will I go Google something and it's like, I didn't ask for all that. Like I didn't

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Major: when it starts being [00:32:00] inquisitive and curious that's when we might have to figure out how to integrate this more ethically

Aaron: Mm-hmm. lives.

Major: I know there's tons of movies,

priming us for it. But the heart of the matter is soul and I just not encountered any use. of this technology that screams

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: And soul comes from not just, in my world, not just language, and not just one person's experience and their relationship to language.

It is cumulative. Of so many people who have shaped me, known and unknown. Like I

can go back three or four generations. But I'm thinking of the first time I walked into Philadelphia Museum of Art and then on the Ben Franklin Parkway in Philadelphia saw the artwork of Michelle Duchamp and my mouth drop and my heart opened and I was like, you can do this. Or hearing John Coltrane's love Supreme for the first time. [00:33:00] Are we gonna feed that into generative AI

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: way that they feel What I felt at that moment,

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: man, don't get me started,

Michaela: I know I was, yeah, I was just listening to. Ezra Klein's podcast this morning and he had, I can't remember the woman's name. we'll make sure we put it in the show notes, but on education and how to educate kids today given the inclusion of, screens and computers and now AI and the challenge of students using AI for, you know, writing essays and cheating and all this stuff.

And so it was this whole conversation, Ezra Klein was basically like, I have a three and a 6-year-old and I have no idea how I should be educating them because I have no idea what the world's gonna be like that they're going to graduate into. What should I be preparing them with? And it was this whole conversation about how AI can be a tool, but it needs to be regulated and.

needs to be used in very specific ways. But he proposed one idea [00:34:00] of could school and education go back if we have this tool, for all these other things in life, could education in school go back to being where we could be at our most human? And really going back to what would be considered a classic education of reading long books and having deep discussions because school isn't, or in some arguments doesn't have to be just preparing you to make money in a capitalist society, but to help develop you as a human being who learns social emotional skills and how to retain information and how to contemplate things and how to change perspectives and open your perspective.

And you know, all of the stuff that gets me super excited, but. Isn't tangibly like exchanged for money easily, in the society that we've built. But it was this beautiful concept of, what if we could imagine a world that AI is use to make life easier, but then the things that are innately just human are [00:35:00] preserved, but it's up.

Major: powerful.

Michaela: Yeah. It's up to the powers that be and us to actually make that happen.

Major: I think part of our identity as a country even is so tied up with these dual impulses of. let's just name it, exploiting labor, exploiting tools in the interest of, building personal wealth. And yet at the same time have this rich, humanistic tradition of literature, of philosophy, of thinking of the transcendentalist, a consciousness around natural world which has us reflect back on quite possibly again the ethical and moral decisions that we make in the interest of our own kind of personal for, financial security. Which can easily spill over into, greed. The idea that AI might help us, that says a lot, right? Regulate and have [00:36:00] us modulate back to a space where we see each other more as humans seems deeply compelling, if not also deeply ironic but, beautiful at the same time.

Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tools that remind us of the sanctity of, life, all forms of life, of our planet, I'm down for it right now, as you say, is unregulated. seems to as we are noticing right now, planting the seeds of discord, such that even our democracy seems on the chopping block at this moment.

Michaela: Mm-hmm. get me started.

Aaron: Oh, it, that's, oh yeah,

Major: into that area, I'm going,

Michaela: I know.

Major: started.

Aaron: Oh yeah.

Major: It'd be

Aaron: a, It's a, exactly. a constant push pull with myself too. But we've kind of been tip toeing around that a little bit because you have published some books on the Obama presidency and selected works around that.

I'm really interested to hear about your take on art in a time of upheaval

both political [00:37:00] and social and, you know, in a way our ethical obligation as artists to exist, you know, in our role fully in this kind of situation.

Major: this moment, this administration is deeply impacting the lives of multiple artists who. I know are, dependent upon federal grants, or they work with institutions who are dependent on federal grants. And I am board member organizations for wound. Their grants have been pulled. Some of them are more reliant than others. IE do not want to change their mission at all, or the direction of what they felt were, values that were important to them, that upheld and reflected our democracy and everyone in our democracy. I'm saddened by this particular moment, and I know that and believe that [00:38:00] in the spirit of. Resilience we will weather this but at the same time, we need to strongly reassert and advocate for the artists among us who themselves are many as we know, living precarious lives. So this is deeply, deeply impacting people it saddens me to no end because too believe a great nation is reflected through its commitment to arts. Right now it is as ideological. And I understand why. but we can find some sort of, I. Balance where we hold everyone within this particular realm that we call literature, that we call music, that we call theater, that we call dance. The performance art, the visual arts. is a trying time right now, but I'm, ever the optimist. Once we start going to, having state sanctioned [00:39:00] art that requires us to carry propaganda, then I'll say, okay, in trouble.

Aaron: Yeah. I mean, again not, to get me going too deeply, but in my self-admittedly limited knowledge or smaller scope of, political knowledge and history that I have administrations historically like this, that create this kind of chaos to institute the change that they are looking massive change in a system.

I see that as an opportunity for I'll just use the word us nobody's going to, argue the fact that there's absolute chaos happening right now. But in that is opportunity to create a new way and reorganize priorities. There is attention to matters, international and domestic, I think there's a lot of eyes on things that are happening right now. There's obviously, I think a lot of fear, a lot of uncertainty, and it's like the world right now is an attention economy, with social media and all of that, and there's a lot of attention right now.

so I as also an optimist is like, [00:40:00] okay, there's a lot of potential attention out there. Let's draw the light onto these historical parts of our system that are now no longer serving us have arguably never served us and let's bring it to this new place.

Major: That's right. right.

Michaela: And I think also it, can re-energize us to see where we're consciously giving our attention, our time, our resources that maybe we took things for granted in the past, and now that they're threatened. It certainly makes me think, okay, I wanna make sure I'm spending my money in the places that I think align with my values for the world that I wanna see preserved, that I go and support artists and people that I wanna see supported.

Where I think in a time of where you feel safe, there can be a complacency of, we're all good. So trying to continuously, find the silver linings of, okay, how do we, take responsibility the little things, the decisions that we make in life can actually have an impact versus just feeling [00:41:00] completely helpless.

Major: Yeah, Tennessee National Humanities which organizes the southern festival of the book, they lost their funding. I. I had always seen, book festivals and music festivals as a sign of civilization. Like

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: Important they are to me. And my hope is that, in the absence of federal funding to support book festivals, going back to what you were saying about what we value about our community, my hope is that we will, as citizens of Nashville and of Tennessee and even of the South, will collectively pull together You know, I also see book festivals as a statement of our democracy. You got all

Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Major: All these people who are, citizens writing about their lives, writing about their corner on the earth. Speaking from their political beliefs, can we not celebrate [00:42:00] that act of First Amendment?

And treasure that? So, you know, What you're saying is resonating to me, even if you, depoliticize it, art is art man.

Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Major: It is the utter expression of who we are and not machines or weather beaten down individual. There's a vibrancy there that feeds us and that is reflective of our that we're trying to achieve in this world.

So, I'm so down with what you're saying.

Aaron: Oh, that's so beautifully said. Yeah. In our conversation about attention, we want to keep attention to the time that you've given us today. We like to end our conversations with kind of a, choose your own adventure to two question thing. That would either be something that someone has shared with you along the way, told you along the way that resonates and keeps you inspired, keeps you centered or conversely something that you would tell younger you, those first kind of really stepping into owning, being a writer as your career.

Major: [00:43:00] I have heard it echoed so I can't recall who said it, but so much of being an artist we live in a culture of rejection. You know,

Aaron: Mm.

Major: After many books and poems written, send it out. There's no guarantee

Aaron: Mm-hmm. editor is going to take it and I. I, not recently, but not too long ago, realized that the joy that I get is in the making and that is ever evolving.

Major: Like, I'm so moved and so grateful to have something that helps me process the world. I'm now an empathetic and understanding of the adults in my life when I was growing up, frustrations because they didn't have an outlet. And so they turned to the thing that helps soothe that rage or that misunderstanding in them.

So my advice, and I know I've heard it somewhere else, is to. Trust the [00:44:00] process and believe that this art will shape you take you to the places as long as that commitment remains and that desire and that joy, in that process and that gratitude, that's something else I'm

Aaron: Mm

Major: like spreading that gratitude is as essential as the making itself.

Aaron: Beautiful. Absolutely. I

Michaela: love that. Well, Before we say goodbye, I did wanna tell you that when we heard you with Maggie Smith at Parnassus, your last question that you said was kind of your statement question, and please correct me 'cause I, I wanna tell you what I remember of it

Major: Yeah.

Michaela: that you asked her, what did you have to go through to create this?

is that what you say?

Major: right.

Michaela: And Erin and I looked at each other like. ooh. Yeah, because one, it's such, a question we've never thought of or asked people on this. And also it, really shifted the way that I think about our work, you know, for me making an [00:45:00] album or, you know, writing a song or an essay or whatever It just really connects that this whole conversation has been so much about our human expression, but it connects the human experience to the art and kind of roots you in that versus, look, I published a book and this is what's happening now, but wait, wait, wait. What did you have to experience to be able to make what you made is, damn less good.

Yeah.

Major: that's after many. Uh, I realized that I wasn't the only one who I. Made sacrifices my art.

and some of it I realized with others, which is very interesting, is that of the life experiences that they were going through intentional with an eye on the final product, so that relationship that they knew that they were in [00:46:00] they entered into it they knew on the other side of it was some poems or some art or you know, it's almost like you remember Thompson, the whole kind of like,

yourself in the experience in order to come out with that big, long essay.

Michaela: Yep.

Major: it's that kind of like journalism. There are artists that do that too, but that's what I've learned. I, I realize, but I also realized that some of it is far more organic that.

And you're realizing that you're working through, some stuff that you experienced, maybe at that moment or earlier in your life. And the art making is, part of the, coming to some resolution and, that. And it is not all, emerging outta trauma pain either.

right now, as part of this anthology, I'm like, you know what? had this idea, but I know this much about it.

Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Major: And like do [00:47:00] research and like immerse myself into that culture, into the life of the kitchen.

so I've been talking to a lot of chefs and I have a dear friend who's a chef Michael Ruman, who's going to also part of my research.

But what we go through, I think if you look at the album or you look at the book you know that there's growth there and that growth is owed to something that was either painful or joyous and I think it's important to amplify that, to talk about

Aaron: Mm-hmm.

Major: not have people think we're just these heroic superpower. Artists who can just do this stuff. You know,

Michaela: Mm-hmm.

Major: Man.

Michaela: Beautiful.

Aaron: Absolutely.

Michaela: Oh, man. Yeah. Well,

Aaron: Thank you for giving us your time this afternoon and your, your wisdom and experience. It was a very inspiring conversation for me.

Major: you.

Michaela: Alright.

Aaron: Take care.

Michaela: Thank you.

Major: Okay. [00:48:00]