Marla Frazee is an illustrator and author who is a 3x Caldecott Honors recipient (for distinguished American picture book for children), the Boston Globe Horn Book Award, is a NY Times Bestseller, she illustrated Hillary Clinton's children's book ("It Takes a Village"), and her own book "The Boss Baby" was the basis for the Oscar-nominated animated film of the same name (made by Dreamworks). We talk about getting into your childhood mindset of why you wanted to make art, narrowing in on what is vital in a project vs tackling everything, cracking the code and "figuring out" what a project/piece of work is, functional art versus art for arts sake, trust, and more.
Marla Frazee is an illustrator and author who is a 3x Caldecott Honors recipient (for distinguished American picture book for children), the Boston Globe Horn Book Award, is a NY Times Bestseller, she illustrated Hillary Clinton's children's book ("It Takes a Village"), and her own book "The Boss Baby" was the basis for the Oscar-nominated animated film of the same name (made by Dreamworks). We talk about getting into your childhood mindset of why you wanted to make art, narrowing in on what is vital in a project vs tackling everything, cracking the code and "figuring out" what a project/piece of work is, functional art versus art for arts sake, trust, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 101, and this week we are featuring our conversation with Marla Frazee. I.
Aaron: this is the second episode in our now monthly series of conversations about creativity with people outside of the music industry. And Marla is an illustrator and an author that. Disclaimer, we are big fans of and is a big part of our life with her work and her books.
Michaela: Yeah. She's a Caldecott winning children's book author and illustrator. She's illustrated books for Hillary Clinton. her book Boss Baby has been adopted. Into very successful films by dreamworks. She has illustrated and or written just [00:01:00] some of the most beautiful, incredible books that we love in every life is one of her most recent everywhere, babies stars all the world
Santa Claus, the world's number one toy expert. We will reference a lot of these because these books have great significance in our household.
Aaron: Yeah. As you can tell, a lot of these are classically children's books, but as we talk about in here, the adults are the ones that are reading the books ultimately. And so we get in some great conversation on audience and using illustrations as narrative and relating to, creating both in service to others as I would as a music producer and creating for yourself and being narrative as Marla talks about with her illustrations.
Michaela: It's just a wonderful conversation that I loved every part of, not only because I'm such a Marla fan, but also just the topics of creativity, the times when life gets in the way, and honoring that and understanding that a lot of times we're actually [00:02:00] taking in what we need.
In order to be creative down the line, really trusting in the timing of all things in our creative work. When we're trying to balance that with ambition and career and financial livelihood, we cover a lot of ground and it's. One of my favorites.
Aaron: Yeah. And as always, some of the topics that we cover in this conversation were suggestions from our Patreon community.
It's because everybody over there gets some advanced notice of who the guests will be, and so they can submit questions to have us kind of approach or dance around during the show if that. Sounds like something that you're interested in and would like to check out more. There is a link below in the show notes,
Michaela: and if you're a visual person and wanna see us sitting here in our studio having this conversation, this and all of our past conversations are available on YouTube.
Aaron: Without further ado, here's our conversation with Marla Frazee.
Michaela: First of all, I love your Carhartt overalls.
Marla: Thank you.
Michaela: How are you doing? This is Aaron, by the way. Yeah, hi. Speak to,
Marla: Erin.
Aaron: I've heard so many.
Marla: to meet you. It's it.
Aaron: I've heard so many [00:03:00] wonderful things about you and see and read your work pretty much daily. Yeah. So
it's,
Marla: sweet.
Aaron: We're so excited to have you. This is our first talking to guests who are not in the music industry, that are in other creative fields.
Michaela: We just spoke to Maggie Smith,
Marla: Oh,
Michaela: so Yes. Mm-hmm. She is. And we, talked about you and I, it feels really special for me because I kind of became aware of your and Maggie's work around the same time. When I was a brand new mother, when When I think back on it now, it's so interesting how memory shifts because in some ways it was this really challenging transition. I mean, you know, My story with my mom's stroke, it was like really painful and lonely in a lot of ways, but also really beautiful and magical. my companions were your books and Maggie's work and it really had this really significant impact on my life.
And then I've gotten to a little bit know both of you, so it feels really special that I talked to you on the same day [00:04:00] today. Mm-hmm.
Marla: Well,
I am very honored to be in this little group
Michaela: Yeah.
Marla: I feel a little like an interloper on this wonderful podcast of yours just because I'm not a musician in any way, but I love any talk about process, so I've loved obviously listening to your podcast and I just feel really honored that I'm here
Michaela: Yeah.
Marla: also like joining Maggie in this sort of virtual way too.
I love her work
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Marla: Mikayla. you. this is just such a, pleasure.
Aaron: Thank you. Yeah. And, speaking about process, this has been a goal of ours since we started the show, is to expand beyond the music industry and really try to start to encompass creativity as a whole. I think that, at the end of the day, what we really like to talk about is like, how do we all as creative people that are lucky to be able to hang our livelihood on our creativity?
Like, how do we stay sane? How do you do it? 'cause it's inevitably the day to [00:05:00] day. I'm gonna put air quotes, like real life pressure that is having a career. You know, Having that rest on your creativity is not a simple thing to navigate kind of across the board. And to keep that creativity pure and an integrity with yourself and integrity with that little kid vision and joy that you had in creating is ever evolving
tenuous thing to
do.
Marla: it? Combining it with life,
Aaron: Yeah.
Marla: of it. It's very tricky.
Michaela: so we'll cover like lots of ground today, but I've heard you talk about and mention that it took you a long time To get published. And I, as I was doing my research on you I saw that you have had lots of artistic creative jobs before you worked in designing toys, is that right?
Marla: A And Okay. And happy mailboxes.
yep.
Michaela: So interesting.
Marla: were in the weeds.
Michaela: I was googling Yeah. But I'm curious if you can kind of talk about those early days of, working other [00:06:00] jobs that did include your craft and creativity and how that might have. Influenced your path to then get on the path that you envision for yourself of being able to publish your own books?
Marla: Yeah, it's a really great question. And actually it's been sort of the cornerstone of, the teaching I've done. I wanted to shorten the journey for other people. I didn't want it to take as long as it took for
because there are a lot of things I, figured out. Maybe it was just that the way I had to figure it out is just the way I had to, but it did take almost a decade to get published.
so I went to Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, well. I wanted to pursue career in doing children's books since I was a kid,
Michaela: Hmm.
wow.
Marla: I was in elementary school. But I didn't know how, you know, I knew I liked to draw and I liked to read and I liked to combine what I could with the pictures I could make at the time, whether I was in first grade and up.
I [00:07:00] just did that on my own, but I didn't know how to have a career. And then I went to art center and at the time I was there, there wasn't anyone teaching who taught a class in children's book publishing or there weren't classes at the time that I was there or that many people that wanted to do it.
And whenever I said I wanted to do it, teachers and students, they would all be like well, you should move to New York. I mean, It was just like everything's in New York, which there's a lot of truth to that then. But I did go through the whole illustration program at Art Center and I left with a portfolio that. I tried to sort of adapt to what I thought was Children's Book focused. I did graduate on a Friday and the next Monday I was working at Disney Studios. I put that job together right before I graduated, which was great.
And I thought, okay, now I have this job, I have a paycheck, I have health benefits.
What an incredible thing, you know? I lasted six weeks
Michaela: Oh yeah.
Marla: and [00:08:00] like the day I decided I couldn't do it, I went down to the office of the man who hired me and I said, you know, I kind of explained that it just wasn't the right fit. And he's like, I understand, long would you like. To keep working.
And I think he was thinking it would be two weeks. And I, I kind of went like lunch and he said, okay. So I kind of packed up my
Aaron: Yeah.
Marla: and I was gone. And then I'm driving out of the studio. I was thinking, what did I just do? This is crazy. I don't have a fallback plan, but ended up just freelancing for the next many, many years.
And, you know, within a couple days I had my first job. And it was an editorial series of three illustrations in an NFL magazine. that time. Editorial, illustration paid more, the same amount it does now, but now we're talking, I. Early eighties,
and I was kind of like, okay, I can do this.
This is gonna be what I do. Like I'm just gonna keep getting these sorts of [00:09:00] jobs.
Marla: so basically I was doing commercial work, whatever it was that I could get. also trying to be published for the next many years. And some of the jobs I did were, lucrative and some were not. And the ones in publishing, like whether it was editorial publishing or educational publishing or anything pertaining to children was generally, very undervalued in terms of price.
Anything I could get that was maybe an advertising job but sometimes really lucrative. So it was sort of this juggling act of trying to keep. Both things going.
What I didn't understand then was that to get into publishing, I really needed to learn how to write stories with my pictures, like picture writing, like my illustrations were commercial.
Like I could illustrate something that was like an advertisement or a one-off greeting card or a poster, but I couldn't tell a story with my pictures. And I, didn't know that was even something I was supposed [00:10:00] to do. And I see this a lot when I, look at illustrations of art students now who wanna go into publishing.
And it's just something that a lot of people don't know you're supposed to do.
It's an interesting thing I discovered with, publishing children's books was that The gatekeepers were pretty much English majors. Once you know, there's editors, librarians, the people who are looking at your illustration work are not the same people that look at commercial work at a advertising agency to see if they're gonna hire you to do an advertising campaign.
It's a different set of eyes and was tricky. I didn't know that.
Aaron: that's really interesting. ' 'cause on any given year, 50% of what I do is writing and producing music to be used on tv. I see a lot of parallels with making illustrations for advertising and all of that. It's almost I wanna say like functional art, it's serving a purpose that is not explicitly the art, even though you know, obviously the illustration and the design for advertising [00:11:00] is integral for the success of that campaign, but The product is the feature there, you know, just where like
narrative of the show is the feature. And my music obviously helps that scene, helps that narrative. But
Marla: And it's very
it,
Aaron: Yes.
Marla: has to serve it.
Aaron: Yeah, exactly. Versus when I'm working on a record for Mikayla or other artists. It's, very narrative, And I think about you know, when I'm writing for tv, the person that's picking my music is a music supervisor. It's somebody, you know, in their home office or in an office listening on earbuds in a very purposeful way. It's not somebody that's listening to their favorite record, you know, and just absorbing that and letting it wash over them.
It's a really interesting headspace to create art within.
Marla: And they're, listening to see if it's gonna fit this. Sort of
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marla: That you might not even really be aware of what that is if you're, an outsider coming into this process.
Michaela: that's like an interesting compartmentalization and like extra layer of talent to use your [00:12:00] creativity for different functions. Like we talk a lot about, the realities of like being a, a lifelong artist that's building your career and like financial wellness and like needing to diversify.
But I'm just now thinking a little more about the brain function and the extra layer of creativity that's needed to create art within parameters for a purpose. for a film score, for a TV show, or for an advertisement versus like, I don't even wanna say it's what we would call it more pure, but maybe the more emotionally driven or like, personally driven
Marla: Personal.
Michaela: work that you might. Use your same exact craft for, but kind of switching that brain. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Marla: Yeah, I think that's, I was gonna say personal. I was gonna use that same word because I think that's the difference really. especially when you're writing, whether I think it's songs or own book or storytelling in pictures, it needs to be personal. If it's going to be unique and [00:13:00] universal actually.
like sometimes the more specific and personal it is, the more universal it is hard to remember when you're beginning and, trying to get your workout in the world
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Marla: there's so many people and things that are telling you it needs to be this or you have to be more like this.
Or, you know, trying to follow market trend or something is happening externally that you're trying to fit into and you can forget. You guys said it earlier in this conversation, I think about just when you're young and you're just doing it because this is what you do to relax or cope or just have fun and play whatever it is that's like driving you to sit down and do creative thing that you're doing. It's very internal, you know? and it's
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Marla: driven by what rest of your life, what you've seen, what you're interested in, what you love, what you maybe are confused about and all that stuff. And I think part has to stay with you the whole time. If you're [00:14:00] going to your own work, that's yours and yours alone, you know? and then get that out there. And that's really tough. And I've taught a long time at Art Center. And my class has morphed over the decades, and I'm not teaching now except I do have really wonderful group of people who I've sort of mentored over the last six years, and that's been really rewarding because I've seen an evolution with their work.
Marla: But the later part of my class, I started to teach a class called Finding Your Voice. And it was really just about trying to have my students return to that space of being that mindset was that they were in when they were young, before they knew that they wanted to pursue a career in, what was that like when you were a kid and you were just drawing, if you can get into that space. Then we would start to grow stories from the things that would emerge from what they were doing when they were in that space.
It was almost like these little seeds were [00:15:00] being planted. And, you know, over time these things came up that they were surprised by, we were continually blown away by, because it was so relatable, whatever it was that they were doing from this deeper part of themselves, it was so relatable.
I think that's i's just the only way at least in my world, that I know how to do that. I don't always know how to do it for myself.
In fact I really have had a hard time in the last five years finding that seed to plant and grow. But I know it works. It's just a matter of it I think.
Or just
Having the, soil ready for it. And
Aaron: Mm.
Marla: of
what you talk about in this podcast. how are you ready for it when the idea happens, you know, that you don't lose it. I think that's, at least, that's a tricky part for me lately.
Michaela: I love this already because we're just entering this territory of talking to creatives in other fields, but there's already so much overlap. You brought up [00:16:00] like the more specific and individualized, the more universal it actually becomes.
And Maggie Smith said the exact same thing, like unprompted and we, talk about this a lot in songwriting and I'm like instantly seeing the pages of your books and your illustrations and how detailed and specific your drawings are. And thinking about how you said that when you were starting out, people told you like, oh, for your career you should move to New York.
like immediately I'm like, your work would be so different if you had. Move to New York because like what drew us to your work was your book, all the World, which will get into later. But you write the words to some of your books and then you also create the images for other people's words.
So that's also something I'm really curious about. But like all the world. Is this beautiful imagery with such detail of all these different people in this beautiful landscape. And it [00:17:00] looks nothing like where we live. And we were like reading this to our baby and we're like, I wanna go there. Like, And that's in every book that you have.
I'm thinking of, I always mix up the order every day, everywhere. Babies.
Marla: everywhere. Babies.
Michaela: Everywhere. Babies, which we'll talk about later also is a, band book in some places, which is insanity, but also so detailed and specific from all these different people. And I look at that and I look at, you know, the way that someone's dressed, the way that you drew them or what, they're doing.
And I like, there's little worlds in every single character that's telling a whole other story besides just the few actual words that are on the page. That's so cool. Now I'm thinking also the overlay with music because of all these other tools to tell a story. We have the lyrics, but we also have the melody and the rhythm.
And the harmony. There's so many [00:18:00] elements. Signal,
Aaron: all color. Yeah. It's the whole ecosystem.
Marla: often think about music when I'm working, especially when I'm illustrating a text that I haven't written
Michaela: Mm-hmm. because my job is to provide. This layer that's going to work with the words, but not necessarily same thing,
Mm-hmm.
Marla: it and also like they're of a piece it's, larger than it.
would be. And that's something that I think it's why it takes me so long to do a book is like trying to figure out the accompanying those two voices, how they're gonna work together.
All the worlds was I was doing the sketches and it was the first time that I hadn't thumbnail sketches First, I just kind of thought, I'm just gonna dive in and illustrate it full size.
I was in pencil, a lot of erasing, but it was like a full sized book. I illustrated all the way to maybe a little over halfway. And I realized that I was trying so hard to fit all these characters and their stories [00:19:00] together that I had, this character meeting another one, and then going to the park and then meeting another couple.
And then they, were all going up to a house that was on the hill, and then there was this storm that came in and they all, they were having some party out on this hill with a house, and the storm, it started to rain and they all ran into the house. And I was like, on page, usually a picture book is about 32 pages to 40.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Book, and I had all these characters now in a house in the rain with a book called All the World. And it's like, now what am I gonna do for the whole second half of the book? Like I've brought them all. Into a house in the rain and there's a storm outside.
Marla: This is ridiculous. What am I gonna do? so I, my editor came over and I was said, will you just look at where it is and you know, am I on the right track? And she was sitting at my breakfast table and I started doing odd jobs around the house while she was looking at the book.
I think I like changed the sheets and I don't know what I was doing. And I came [00:20:00] back in and I was kind of like, do you think? And she said I, it's not working. I was like, oh, that's not what I wanted to hear. And she's like, you're strong arming the text. I remember she used that and I'm like, huh, this was not what I wanted to hear.
But what I did is I went back to thumbnail sketches and I kind of started with how I began the first few pages and then I started at the end and tiny little thumbnails. Toward the middle, both ends.
And what I was trying to do was like keep opening the book up and out and bigger and bigger.
And so that's what I finally figured out when I went back to thumbnails. And then it, was like, I kind of knew that point where I was
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: kind of
Came be. But it was hard to figure out. It took me a long time.
Michaela: Yeah.
Marla: it was sort of like this book called All the World. I thought well, I can't illustrate all the world. I mean, That's just, it's impossible. I've only seen a tiny little portion of the world. [00:21:00] and usually when there's a problem like that as an illustrator, there's often a problem like that.
It's just doesn't make sense to try and make that a literal thing.
How am I gonna approach it? And in, in that case, I asked myself this question, when I feel really part of the world, what's happening? how do I feel when that's happening?
And I thought well, I feel either I'm with people I love, or I'm somewhere I love
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: very attached to the world. And I thought well, I can set this book somewhere I love.
And so what's my favorite place I've ever been to? basically it was the central coast of California.
And I was like, well then I'm gonna just set it in some sort of generalized place that would be around there. And
Michaela: Yeah,
Marla: I took all kinds of pictures. I didn't want it to be like specifically this town, but I wanted it to be inspired by that area. And I think people do recognize it as that area they're like, oh, was this book set?
And, And I'm like, yes,
Aaron: yeah. Absolutely. I, picture there's a market in Rolling Hills and really [00:22:00] beautiful. I love, kind of like playing with the. Chronological order that you ended up creating the narrative for that book and looking at the beginning and the end, so you know, where you're, aiming towards, we've talked about that on here with other songwriter friends of like, know what you're writing towards, I'll do that on the service end as a producer working with, you know, trying to bring somebody's song to life.
If I know that, the intent is to have it be this like really big, powerful payoff, I'll kind of start at the beginning to know like where the, minimum marker is, I guess. and where that initial, impact and that initial feel. And then a lot of times I'll go and search for that, like big impact section and be like, okay where does this feel?
And then that gives me a starting point and a point to shoot for, which I was hearing what you were
describing with all the world. sense. Yeah. That's so interesting.
Marla: Yeah. me think about how, like a lot of times in, any work of art, whether it's a, novel or a memoir, a song of like I talk about this a lot with my songwriting students of this desire to like include [00:23:00] everything and always trying to strip away like, wait, no, this is a snapshot or a moment.
Michaela: You know, This isn't like what is absolutely necessary. And you had literal words, the title and the whole book of all the world and had to grapple with wait a second, how do I represent visually all the world? And it's also really beautiful thinking of all the meanings of that, of all the world especially in terms of, children's books are for children's, but adults are reading them like, we need to enjoy them. Like, Believe me, we need to enjoy them. We have, we have like book limits at night because Georgia will pick the longest books and she's memorized them and we'll try to like get through them quickly and if we skip like any sentence, she's like, no, you forgot the line where she blinks and wonder.
I'm like, oh my gosh. So that was just a tangent of just the [00:24:00] audience you have like multiple audiences that you're aiming for, but all the world might literally mean the entire earth or it could mean like what the world is to a little 4-year-old or even an adult who, like their world is their community, their neighborhood, their town, sometimes the overwhelm with a creative project of trying to incorporate so much and knowing how to zero in on what is vital that actually can communicate so much more than trying to encompass everything that we feel pressured to encompass in some creative act.
Marla: One of the interesting things I think about picture Books for Children is that, you know, the audience for the picture book illustration, I really aim for like a, child that hasn't learned how to read yet. That's my audience. think about that child while I'm working all the time because they are so visually literate.
they will see [00:25:00] everything they look at the pictures so carefully, like they're not just glib about the pictures because they're really immersed in the picture story. they're kind of picture reading virtuosos, basically, like when they learn how to read words, they lose that really level of attention that they bring to it before they read.
so if I have a picture story that is gonna make sense to that age group, if they're really studying it I know I can sort of lock into that a book like All The World that was written by Liz Garten Scanlan, and it's so beautifully poetic. There's a similar thing that happens with when children hear those words read aloud to them, they hear the poetry, they can't read the words yet, but they hear it.
And I think even very young children can, hear that line. Babies pass from neck to knee and it just like, does something right. And
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: know this from writing lyrics, so you can grab a child with really excellent, poetic language and really tight picture [00:26:00] stories. Adults they will benefit too from both of those things and they will engage with the book if it has them. I don't really worry about the adult audience
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: because if both of those things are working. The book will work,
And it's just hard to get 'em both working. That's the tricky part.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Marla: It's difficult. as you know, from reading to Georgia, I'm sure there are many books that you're sort of cringing like, I don't wanna read that one again.
Aaron: Yeah, there's I'll say this with a little wink in and Knot, but books can be misplaced in our house, you know? I haven't seen that one. I don't know. Uh, Anyway,
Marla: Yeah
Aaron: let's read the World's Greatest Toy Expert. Here we go. I don't care if it's July, we're gonna read this.
Michaela: The World's Greatest Toy expert has genuinely helped Georgia um, get over her fear of Santa Claus.
Yep.
Aaron: Last year he wasn't allowed to come in our house. He had to leave the presence here in our studio, which is 40 feet behind our house. But this year he's welcome to come inside. So
Marla: is very sweet. That makes me so happy.
Aaron: yeah, With [00:27:00] that and with, all the world and stars I'm a topography fan. I really love fonts and all of that. And I assume all of those are handwritten by you, is that correct?
Marla: They are
Aaron: talk about a, feel to the words like a the way that they're arranged on the page, but then also like your handwriting that you use and all of that just makes the words feel really nice to me while I'm reading.
Is that something that you take into consideration that you adjust, or is it, have you found your style for that?
Marla: I think it almost happened accidentally I do some pretty detailed sketch dummies and I always would include the typography because like just so much a part of. What the imagery's doing. It just, I wanna see if it's gonna work and fit and after doing I can't remember which book I did the lettering everywhere, babies, I did sort of a big caption on the
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: rest of the type was set. But then it just sort of evolved where, the editor I worked with quite a bit, she would say like, you're gonna hand letter this one, right? And I'd be like, maybe, if you think it's right, [00:28:00] then it just became sort of a lot of the books. it just happened.
Did a book called A Couple of Boys Have the Best Week Ever, I did not only all the lettering inside, but also the spine, the copyright page, like the whole thing was letter, the entire thing, except for the barcode, because I tried, I'm like, can I do the barcode? And
Michaela: Whoa,
Marla: was like it won't work.
Aaron: it won't scan. Yeah.
Marla: not gonna, I'm like, okay. And then when it came out it was reviewed and somebody said it was the fahan lettering. And I was like, ah, are you kidding? It took me so long.
Anyway, but have the lettering, but one of the funny things is my oldest son, Graham, when he was in first grade, he was very interested in fonts.
Wrote a letter to a graphic designer, like a fan letter. And anyway, he grew up to become a typeface designer, so
Aaron: Amazing.
Marla: he does. And now the last book I did in every life that came out he did the display type on the cover and [00:29:00] the title page,
Aaron: Oh wow. Amazing.
Marla: really,
Really wonderful to be able to like, have his work on that book.
And I think he made that cover just sing. I
Michaela: Yeah.
Marla: proud to have it on the book. I
Aaron: Uh,
Marla: it was just an amazing thing.
Aaron: yeah. What an amazing experience to be able to collaborate with your child
like that.
Marla: was,
awesome.
Michaela: I love that. That book and every life is a masterpiece to me it's so
beautiful. we don't even have to go deep on this, but I think I've told you of just like, I love that you are also an Arab woman, and it was inspired by a Jewish prayer blessing.
There's so many things I love about. That book and that there's a grandmother in a wheelchair with her granddaughter. Mm-hmm. now has like a
Marla: mom.
Michaela: Oh, really?
Oh,
Marla: I mean that
book took 25 years. It was 25 years in the making,
Michaela: oh my God.
Marla: I mean, I kept putting it away. I couldn't figure it out.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: From publisher to publisher and I'd be like, I can't figure this out.
And I'd put it [00:30:00] away. And it was really only the end of the first year of the pandemic so it was the end of 2020 and I was working on a funny book when the pandemic began, and I could not work on a funny book during that time period. It was just like, there's nothing funny.
I was just.
Michaela: Yeah. in so many different ways by life. so I put the funny book away and I was like, you know, maybe it's actually the right time for this, book. and it ended up being the right time. I, finally figured out, how to approach it.
Aaron: Hm.
Marla: I just needed to have gone through all the years that I went through until, you know, that time.
And
Michaela: yeah. Wow.
Marla: So thank you. meant a lot to me to have that book actually come out I went through all these family photos. not to find pictures, but just I stopped it the ones that just caught me. I was
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: caught up in the memory or the moment, or like the experience or whatever, and just pulled them.
Some of them were like actually photographs. Some of them were [00:31:00] on my computer and I just threw 'em into a file and then thought about, you know, it wasn't like I was illustrating actually those pictures or even those people, but it was sort of like the feeling of all that. And at the beginning of the pandemic, my father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
And so when the book actually came, I had the first copy of the book. It wasn't quite out yet. But that first single copy I went over to my folks and at the time they were just about to move into a memory care together in their apartment. And my dad was, right at the point where he was still able to communicate and.
my mom looked at the book and she was so happy to see it. And then I said to my dad, do you want me to read it to you? And he's like, I could read it. And I said well, do you want me to read it to you? Even so, and he's like, yeah. So I sat down with him and we went, through it and he was pointing to a lot of the pictures that he just sort of recognized the moment, the situation that, whatever.
And I'd be like, yeah, dad, that's you at the beach with, you know, one of your grandsons. and we went through all the [00:32:00] pages. It took 20 minutes 'cause he was so in looking at everything. And he was not in his heyday, not a man that would've, he is very type A and very like, he was not that patient.
It was such an interesting process to watch him take it in, in a way and when we got to the end, he closed the book and. said, thank you, and then he kissed the back of
Michaela: Oh my God,
I'm gonna cry.
Marla: it to me and I was like, oh my God. He just sort of blessed it. it meant so much to me that he was able to experience that book after all those years and right at the nick of time, because month wouldn't have been able to have that experience.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: Oh my gosh.
Aaron: I mean,
Marla: Pretty special.
Aaron: talk about everything has its time and its
own pace. Like, Wow that's, incredible.
that being such like a personal work, obviously having this experience with your family and having it be just yours for so long in process for 25 years, can [00:33:00] you tell us a little bit about the experience of it being released and now being out in the world and inherently.
Kind of part of the public now was that a hard thing to do, or is it kind of a release?
Marla: I still am amazed it is actually a book. I think that's my predominant feeling.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: Was not a book for so long. It was just an idea of a book
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Marla: long. And I remember one of the times that I it away again, ' I'd get it out. I never illustrated anything. I could sort of almost see it.
And then I was moving words around and changing phrases and trying to figure out of it. And I would talk about the illustrations, but I never illustrated anything until, this time that I finally did. And it was really the um, rhythm of the page turns that kind of unlocked it for me.
And then it was, I kind of knew how to approach it. before that the, editor she was gonna publish it, and then by this time when she said this to me, she [00:34:00] had already left the field. We were just talking and I was telling her stories about where it was and what was happening, and I said, yeah, I think I, just can't figure it out.
I put it away again. She's like, why don't you have somebody else? Illustrate it, and then my agent said the same thing, maybe somebody else. And I'm like no, no. And, And like my reaction was interesting because I had no idea how I would ever, that I still wasn't willing to give it up. and then when it came out, it still seems like it's in a drawer and then I remembered, no, it's an actual book now.
I'm just so grateful that I finally was able to do it. And Mm-hmm. erin, it was sort of like the time was, right and I had that experience with my dad that I'll never forget,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: I feel like the reason I did the book,
Michaela: even when it was happening, I was thinking that this is the reason I did this book.
Marla: It was for right now, and then when he kissed it, it was like
Michaela: yeah.
Marla: He never kissed a book of mine before, like
Michaela: I mean, That's [00:35:00] such like a massive reminder of trusting in the timing of everything. And I think in our creative work, especially when we want our creative work to help us achieve things and if we're ambitious people and we wanna build careers on our creative work, it's incredibly hard to trust in timing and having patience.
And it's such a beautiful story to hear because I think we can put a lot of shame on not creating. Enough in this like self-imposed timeline and a culture that, values, youth and achievement. All these, you know, 40, under 40, all the like young, everything's based on like, how much are you doing at a young age?
And, I see this with, artist friends and as well as my songwriter students, if they come to a session and they like, they're like hanging their head in shame that they haven't finished the song that they were supposed to finish. And I'm always like, I'm never gonna [00:36:00] scold you. Like, Yes.
you want to show up and do the work, but also sometimes you do have to wait. And there are reasons that we don't know. And if you had rushed that book and forced it out, it would've been a very different book. You would've been a different person writing it. It's like trusting in the time that Yeah, sometimes it takes 25 years Exactly to have the experience that you had with your father that you wouldn't have had. It's a really, really hard thing to do to trust when there's all these other, you know, the premise of this podcast of like, how do we focus on that rather than if only I could get this book finished and get it published to make, achievement and money and, and further my career and trusting in the creative process and the life process.
Marla: I'm, I was just thinking about how, and you might be in this. Place now. Like it was so hard when I had little kids at home
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: and feeling like I was [00:37:00] losing time this was like I'm sitting at the park instead of actually working and, you know,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: always conflicted about
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: not figure out how I was supposed to put it together, balance it.
it was the hardest thing and I wished later that I would've realized then how much of that time is actually in my books. Like that's what my books are pretty much often
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: that dynamic of, children at certain times of their life. Parents at certain times trying to navigate it The process of just doing whatever it is in terms of being a parent and being in a family even the Santa Book that you mentioned was really about the process of being Santa, like the actual year long process of
Aaron: Yeah.
Marla: which when that book was emerging, I was like dying about like how hard it was do Christmas
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: impossible.
And I just would feel like [00:38:00] buried know, it was just added a whole layer of already a very tiring schedule
and I remember thinking like, how is San, how does Santa do it? How I can barely do it. imagine if you were, does he do it? And then it was like answering that question because of exhaustion.
I remember the feeling of I'm exhausted, but imagine what it would be like to be him.
and at that point I really had the inkling of the idea that Santa would be a toy tester, a toy expert, but it wasn't like the gift giving process at that point. It was of like, that came from how do you pick out a gift and wrap it and get ready?
And for all the people in my life who I love, it was like, imagine being Santa and doing it for everyone. like thoughts baby was because I was
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Marla: and, and the things about parenthood. That were very hard to deal with when I was trying to have a career and trying to build a career are the [00:39:00] things that my books are about.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Write what you know,
Marla: yeah, and if I knew then that I was sort of building this
awareness of something that is a universal thing,
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Marla: I didn't know that
Michaela: Yep.
Marla: only had to live it,
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's why we're having these conversations. Yeah. To help each other.
Marla: no, I know. It's always so helpful. That's why I think talking to anybody, anybody in the creative field, if they share their process with you, you're gonna glean something really important that you can relate to your own. I think
Michaela: Absolutely.
Marla: interesting, and
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: that you're doing this because. I've learned so many things just listening to, people talking about music you know, it's not like it's directly applicable to me, but it is applicable. These problems are solved and how the time is used
what's important, what's not. You know, It's just
Michaela: Yeah. I feel like. I have like 10 book ideas all the time. And [00:40:00] Marla, you know about them 'cause I've shared them with you and I've had times where I've been like, oh, I'm just like full of it. I'm never gonna do that. I just talk and then I'm like, wait, you do have, especially if you're a creative person that has a lot of different creative endeavors letting yourself know like, okay, maybe I do need to hold my feet to the fire at some points and have deadlines. Also a big part of these conversations, how to build in things to actually like, have the discipline to sit down when you need, but also know like, maybe I need to ponder this for 20 years and that's okay.
Maybe I haven't yet lived the experience that I need to inform my ability to tell this story. And I need to go through that first and that story will come out. And you're not just never ending pipe dream talking about all your big ideas that you're never gonna do.
Aaron: Yeah. And while you were saying that, Mikayla, I got this in having a book that takes 25 years to finish, or I remember distinctly we talked to [00:41:00] Rodney Crowell who said he's songs that he spent 40 years working on, or songs that have come out that have been big hits for him and other artists that he says are still not done, even though they've been, you know, released and they've been number one songs and
whatnot.
Marla: my Um, it takes a lot of trust and belief in your idea that it deserves the patience. Yeah, for me, there's such excitement around a fresh idea and a new idea, and it's like, oh, I need to catch this idea.
Aaron: I need to put this idea down. Where it feels like if I let it mature ripen on the vine, I guess, before I, pick it that it won't last for some reason. And this is something I'm like realizing in the moment, speaking to a microphone that will now be released into the world if there were people to judge this, and we'll see if I believe this when the episode airs.
But yeah, you know, it, it does take some kind of trust and self-assuredness to take that time with your art.
Marla: I don't know if you do this I sometimes check in like, does that idea still excite me? does it still have any energy?
The funny book that I put away in 2020, I took out recently gonna be doing [00:42:00] it next now. So I kind of worked on it again, got it to a place where I have a publishing contract for it and I'm going to be working on it soon.
And, that was another one. It wasn't 25 years, but it definitely, when I put it away, I thought, I can't figure this thing out. And it was only just thinking, does it still, catching me up?
It was that's a gauge I often use, I can tell it's that idea was interesting for a second , but it doesn't have me anymore,
Aaron: not to get
too insider. I wonder for you what your process is like on, exploratory. Creating where you're exploring these seeds of ideas for books, and then, creating and doing work that is either under contract to publish or
Michaela: has a specific project
Aaron: Yeah.
Is, you know, almost I wanna say assignment, but that feels
clunky. But, what does that balance look like for you?
Marla: that's something that changed drastically in the last five years. And, was sort of always working on something and I kind of would always have an idea or a plan for what would [00:43:00] be coming next maybe even next after that. And this last chunk of time has been very challenging
and I kind of realized in the middle of it that whatever creativity muscle I had had just given up.
I didn't have any, and I was coming to the end of a project and I mean, I. Have to keep working.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: Just a reality. So it was
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Marla: yikes, what am I gonna do? I started to think of maybe I need a different job. maybe this is the first time, a long time I felt like this, but I was really scared.
And it was kind of like, what am I gonna do if I can't think of an idea? it takes a really long time for an idea to gel. And so it's not like you can just manufacture this thing and it's gonna work and then you can start working on it. It'll become a book. I, I have to say I was pretty panicked for the last year. and because this has been going on a while I've, kind of wondered what happened to make me feel like I'd lost that ability to create stuff [00:44:00] and, life just got real. You know,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Marla: Things that were scary didn't feel safe
Aaron: Mm-hmm. and I didn't feel like I had the time, the brain space to kind of imagine things.
Marla: And I also realized I wasn't prioritizing that. I kept just giving my time to various things that I thought were more important than that.
and in a lot of ways they, have been, things that had to be given attention to, it had to happen that way. But I guess this is a long way of saying like, I really think I'm more careful now, I'm trying really hard to kind of build that back up.
And take care of what I need to keep working.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: Couple things I've done that have been really helpful I'm an anxious person and so it's very easy for me to kind of spiral and it's been sort of a year of health issues too.
And so I started to meditate. I've started to say no a lot. All the things that we all hear
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: you have to protect. I've really put a lot of those in place and [00:45:00] I feel like I've slowly trudging out of this kind of darker area and I'm feeling pretty positive about being able to work more.
It's like I have been working, but it hasn't given me the same sort of pleasure,
yeah.
I think without that I haven't had new ideas, it's just like is dark and everything, but this happens, I think, and you know, I've been doing this a while and I didn't have this until this chunk of time
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: extent.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: I've really had to focus on what that means and try and fix this stuff. and I think it's good in the long run because I am sort of reinvesting in what's important about my work and what I wanna do going forward. And, you know, I don't know how, long I'll be able to keep doing this.
It's just, who knows. Mm-hmm.
feeling like this is something that is really crucial to take care of, I'm just more focused on that now I sort of forgot. I [00:46:00] how to do that for a while,
Michaela: Thank you for sharing that.
Marla: yeah, it's hard. I mean, When a lot of people are needing you, you think, very easy to be there for them when to kind of forget about your own needs, you
Aaron: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Marla: I, I think, it's really up to me there's no one that's gonna do this for me.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: Me to carve out the time. It's up to me to say, no, I can't do that. It's up to me to give myself the hours.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Marla: the brain space, put myself in beautiful locations for a while without anybody talking to me. That's up to me.
basically am reinvesting in that process and have been for a while and it, feels good.
It's kind of like, oh yeah, I feel untethered from this, other thing. And I can feel it almost like coming back again. so I feel like it's been um, interesting, almost like something to care for. people say this all the time, but I don't know what it means, like self-care.
I really dunno what that means. But it's easier for me if I think about it as like a creative. Muscle that I have to [00:47:00] care for,
and then I can, put actions around that,
Aaron: that resonates with me. I feel the same, and I've had to view my creativity of this thing that needs to be. Cared for. And I chuckled when you said, you know, you don't really know what self-care means. Like, I hear that too. And historically I'm getting better as I get older.
The way I've been able to short circuit myself on that is to just remind myself to be gentle with myself, a lot of what I do is in service to others. you know, it's jobs for other people. It's, helping facilitate rights, helping all of this. And so it's very easy to view that as like a to-do list and then just check it off.
And it feels really great to check it off. It feels really great to check it off on like a high level and be, with pride in the work that I do. But it can be very draining. And, I'm one to, go full Thelma and Louise, like right off the side of a cliff before I realize oh yeah this, is not good.
So yeah, everything you were just saying like really resonates with me of nobody's gonna do this for me. tries to be like, you need a break, which doesn't work for me. It doesn't [00:48:00] go over very well. Me, I'm like, says who?
Marla: yeah,
Aaron: But,
Michaela: but it's,
Marla: understand.
Michaela: I mean, again, that's why we wanted to have these conversations because creative work I'll speak for just myself, but I feel like Erin believes this too. Like, we believe being human is, being creative, that we're all creative people, but when we choose to build our livelihood and professional life on it, it's a tricky thing because it is your work that brings you money that you depend on you need your creativity to be active, but it's so emotional and so impacted by what else is going on in your life.
And so managing that, like, how do I care for my creativity so that I can continue to survive in this path and know full well that it's not always going to be an endless faucet. And how to nurture that honor, that have [00:49:00] grace, and also logistically have some safeguards built into your life so that when you are going through a lot of heavy stuff in life or caretaking and you don't feel the inspiration or the time or the bandwidth to make that you have some safety that you can not try and force that.
All are really important things to keep in mind. And I think, like you said, when you, been doing it for so long and maybe you haven't hit some of those bumps, it's very easy to take it for granted. I think those times where you're like, I was working, I just wasn't like gaining the same pleasure.
I've talked about this a million times of like, I didn't write a song for two years when my mom had her stroke and I became a mother and it just did not bring me joy. I've also shared this many times on the podcast, but I remember touring with the Wood Brothers and Oliver and sharing my story and Oliver Wood was like, oh man, you must have gotten so many good songs out of it.
and that can sound like very flippant. It was not it was [00:50:00] very caring, but I was just like, not a one.
Marla: Uhhuh.
Michaela: now I'm two years out from that and I have lots of songs, but I couldn't force it. I couldn't harvest that creative energy that inevitably came from life experience until I was fully ready to do
that.
Marla: I mean,
Do you feel like it was an incubation period? now that you're looking back at it to living that two years?
Michaela: Yeah.
Marla: are panicked.
Michaela: Yeah. And you're in, survival mode.
So like incubation, taking it in, processing through all of the different things like you were talking about, meditating, putting yourself in beautiful, quiet spaces therapy, if that's helpful. All of those things to then be able to be like, oh, I feel some brewing energy to use my creativity to make meaning from these experiences.
before that came, I was like, I can't touch that. No, thank you.
Marla: Uh Huh Uhhuh.
Michaela: Yeah.
Marla: I mean, All those things that you mentioned are, [00:51:00] helpful for me,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: therapy, meditation, like nature, like
Michaela: Yeah.
Marla: of it space. I think it is a returning to, I mean, we know deep down that the way we process the world is the way we process the world.
It's just that know, still there.
but I think those time periods can be very hard and scary, I
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: I think it's helpful to just say it,
Michaela: Yeah,
Yeah,
Marla: Know?
Aaron: exactly. It can be so taboo, at least in the, music community to talk about that,
about the struggle and the question like, am I done? Is my creativity done? Have I written my last song? Like all of that? And I used to think like.
there is a magic elixir of things that you can do that you just take that and you can move past it. And it's just like that, which is taking all the humanness out of that. And the more we have these conversations and hearing what has worked for you and all of the conversations we've had on this podcast and whatnot, and thinking about it more, I think the key is just returning [00:52:00] intentionality to your life and doing things with intention.
whether it's consciously or subconsciously, just remembering that like you're in control. what's the book? Where she Walks to the PC H.
Marla: Oh yeah.
Michaela: Oh, wow.
Marla: Strays
Michaela: Strad. Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah. She says in there I think it was something that her mom told her, is that you have the choice every day to put yourself in front of immense natural beauty and was talking about, you know, the sunrise of the sunset.
It's like, yeah, you can make that choice every day. It's something so
simple.
Michaela: I love that you're quoting Sheryl Strai. I didn't know that.
Marla: I do
Aaron: I this
Michaela: is like my domain. Nice.
You
Aaron: know? Yeah. I contain multitudes.
Michaela: maybe we'll get Sheryl Strai on here.
Oh my gosh.
Marla: That would be epic.
That would be,
Aaron: I did, I did choose to take a three day mountain bike trip on my own. And camped out in the woods and it was biking the, Pisco National Forest near the Smoky Mountains.
And it was very wet and very muddy and it was a very like, masculine thing. Like, I'm gonna camp and cook over a fire and ride my bike. But I was also reading Brene Brown to myself by candle on the [00:53:00] light every night. So yeah,
Marla: we need more of that. Yeah,
I love that.
Aaron: there was that.
Marla: That's
Michaela: Oh man. Well, We know we've gone past the hour.
I feel like there's millions of things we could still talk about,
wanna ask.
Marla: to talk to both of you.
Michaela: Thank you my guys. I wanted to ask you one last parting question
what if you could tell your younger self when you were just starting out on this life path of a creative life, what would you tell yourself if anything?
Marla: this one phrase just popped into my head and I don't know exactly why, but you know what, you know,
like I did. And I think that's partly why I. I work on behalf of this very young age group. I remember feeling things at that age that I should have been feeling,
It was a very profound period of time for me, and I really remember it real well,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Marla: and I still draw from that time. if somebody would've told me that, I think I would've liked to know that then.
Michaela: Yeah. Like,
Marla: I'm right. I am [00:54:00] feeling these things and for a good reason.
Michaela: I love that.
Aaron: amazing. This great little parting thought
to leave the conversation with. Yeah.
Marla: I, wouldn't have thought I would say that, but
Aaron: that's what's beautiful about these questions is it's, just like
first idea, best idea. And
Marla: are great.
Aaron: likewise. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so
much.
Michaela: Okay.
Marla: to see You
Michaela: You
too. Lifewise, Marla. Thank you. Take
Aaron: care.
Michaela: