Nicki Bluhm is a singer-songwriter who has released multiple solo records and records with her former band The Gramblers, and has toured/performed/recorded with the likes of Phil Lesh, Aj Croce, Oliver Wood and Todd Snider. Jesse Noah Wilson is a bassist and producer, who currently plays in John Fogerty's band, is a former member of Band of Heathens, and has a studio in Nashville called Rancho Deluxe. We talk with both of them about the insights they've absorbed through working with legendary octogenarians, never losing the drive for the highest quality, tour boundaries, band relationships and band therapists, horses, and more.
Nicki Bluhm is a singer-songwriter who has released multiple solo records and records with her former band The Gramblers, and has toured/performed/recorded with the likes of Phil Lesh, Aj Croce, Oliver Wood and Todd Snider. Jesse Noah Wilson is a bassist and producer, who currently plays in John Fogerty's band, is a former member of Band of Heathens, and has a studio in Nashville called Rancho Deluxe. We talk with both of them about the insights they've absorbed through working with legendary octogenarians, never losing the drive for the highest quality, tour boundaries, band relationships and band therapists, horses, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and this is the second year of our podcast. We're so happy to still be here, and thank you guys for being here with us.
[00:00:19] Aaron: Yeah, before we jump into today's episode, we've got three quick asks for you.
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if that interests you, we have a link below in the show notes.
[00:01:04] Michaela: One of the things we really pride ourselves on with this podcast is that we are not music journalists. We are musicians ourselves. So we think of these more as conversations and less as interviews, as though we're just inviting our guests in.
to sit around the dinner table and share the really honest realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art,
[00:01:25] Aaron: which is a wild thing to do, as we all know. And that's because most of it is outside of our control. There are gatekeepers, there are algorithms. There's tons of stuff in our way.
So we focus on what we can control, which is our head space, our mindsets, our routines, our creativity in general. And we've been able to distill that down to the general question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to ask that question of our friends, Nikki Blum and Jesse Noah Wilson.
[00:01:54] Michaela: Nikki and Jesse are partners in music and in life, and they both have separate, very thriving, beautiful careers. Nikki used to perform with Nikki Bloom and the Gramblers and has been putting out solo records for the past several years. She has toured, performed, or recorded with people like Phil Lesh and friends, AJ Croce, Oliver Wood of the Wood Brothers, Todd Schneider, Margo Price.
And Jesse is a member of John Fogarty's band and Hardy Har, as well as formerly part of Band of Heathens and a producer and makes records in his home studio.
[00:02:33] Aaron: Both of them have spent a lot of time on stage with octogenarians and people that can measure to their career in decades, Nikki with Phil Lesh, Jesse with John Fogerty.
So we got some great insight that they've absorbed being around these people that still approach things at such a high level. After literal decades, we get to talk to them about. Home life the desire to want to be home versus be on the road, tools that work sometimes and not the other different seasons of things.
So without further ado, here's our conversation with Nikki Blum and Jesse Wilson.
We haven't actually seen you guys. in a while. Jesse, we saw you at the airport.
[00:03:08] Jesse: airport hang at the urban juicer.
[00:03:11] Nicki: Oh, yeah.
[00:03:12] Jesse: Yeah
[00:03:12] Nicki: Aaron and I saw each other really briefly like in passing. Oh, we saw very
[00:03:16] Jesse: quickly at the baby shower
[00:03:17] Aaron: the baby showerthat's right.
Yeah. And then a couple of days after that, Georgia and I were back at the airport, flying to Oregon to meet up with Michaela at a festival. And she asked about you, Jesse, not by name, but she's like, Hey, is your friend here? And I'm like, he might be, who
[00:03:30] Jesse: you know what? Yeah. Damn. I need to just be spending more time at the airport.
[00:03:35] Aaron: it seems like you spend quite a bit of time at the
[00:03:37] Jesse: I sure do. Although toured like 11 of the 12 weeks of summer this year. so I am very happy to say that been a couple weeks since I've been to the airport.
Which feels very good.
[00:03:48] Michaela: Congratulations. Yeah. Yeah, that was at some point this summer, because it was early in my pregnancy, and I'm six months now, and I remember, I know, I know, and Georgia was just immediately like,hey, Jesse, my mom's got a baby in
[00:04:01] Jesse: is my brother. Yeah. That was amazing.
[00:04:05] Nicki: Yeah, Jesse told me. I was like, what?
[00:04:07] Jesse: Yeah. Oh my god.
[00:04:08] Michaela: I know, last time we were at your guys house, Georgia was a baby and we stayed at your party and I was like, can I just put the baby sleep in your room because I don't want to leave him having fun. Oh,
[00:04:20] Nicki: The more kids that can be here, the more I'm realizing theyI like when kids are around way more than dare I say grownups. I love grownups too, but there's something about like having kids around that just feels very lively and fun. Especially when we're not the ones responsible for them.
[00:04:35] Michaela: Totally, and especially when it'sit's not a kid's party, when it's
[00:04:39] Nicki: Yeah.
[00:04:40] Michaela: an adult party and kids are there and they're running around versus like a kid's party is a little intense, you know, it's nice. And then when they're like, let's put them to sleep and we can just keep hanging out.
So,
[00:04:51] Nicki: Well,
And we had a little toddler romance happen here a couple of days ago. It was like the cutest thing. They were just I mean, it's just, it's ridiculous. You don't have to take the photo out. I
[00:05:01] Michaela: Laughter.
[00:05:02] Nicki: It's just, it's like, it'slike they were just like falling in love and holding hands.
And I'm like, this is my best matchmate. Make ever.
[00:05:08] Michaela: I love that. That's amazing.
[00:05:09] Aaron: your guys backyard is kind of perfect for, kids. It's like, cool, run, yeah, go, be free.
[00:05:13] Michaela: Yeah, one of these days
[00:05:14] Nicki: Georgia's gotta come see your horses.
[00:05:16] Jesse: I know. Yes.
[00:05:17] Nicki: She does
[00:05:18] Michaela: Are your horses like, on your property or are they right next to you?
[00:05:22] Nicki: They're about to be. Yes.
[00:05:24] Jesse: They
[00:05:25] Michaela: so this is a good, entry point, because I feel like there's so many things we want to cover with you guys, because you both have had such long, varied, changing careers. And especially like Nikki, you and I have had conversations in recent years about the shift of, Being on tour constantly and kind of like your relationship to your career and, tour life shifting a little bit and wanting to build more diversity and build more time in at home.
And your horses are part of that. Can you fill us in on where, where you're both at? Cause obviously Jesse's been on the road a lot somewhere
[00:05:57] Nicki: Yeah.
[00:05:59] Michaela: with where you're each at with that and then how you handle it together as a couple.
[00:06:03] Nicki: Yeah. I feel like for me, my whole career feels somewhat not accidental, but organic in that I never really intended to be a touring musician. that sort of continues following this path of least resistance. Not that it's not hard or I don't have to put effort into it, but I sort of just keep on this continuum of what's next, what's next, what's next.
And for a long time it was touring and, just staying on cycle and, continuing that traditional, routine and the pandemic obviously was very abrupt and interrupted that. brainless, this is what you do, you just keep going and plugging away and it allowed all of us to just stop.
[00:06:49] Aaron: Mm hmm.
[00:06:49] Nicki: I think, I kind of feel like it did one of two things for touring musicians, it either made you really hungry for the road and to get back out and to, tour.
And I think for another sector of us, it was for me, it was how much I've missed being in one place and having a routine that's home based and having a garden and having a dog. I really was able to like,dig in and feel that. And that was also right when Jesse and I, Jesse had just moved to Nashville in February of 2020.
And so we got to experience that together and just feeling what that home is like with a partner. It just kind of made me realize. It's want to balance towards this. I don't want to totally let go of, the old self, but I need to find balance and incorporate both sides.
[00:07:35] Jesse: And just to add on to that, in the summer of 2021, asas we were starting to move again, like everything was starting to open back up. we moved from East Nashville out to Madison and opened up a little bit and got some land, and I know Nikki's always wanted horses and she grew up with horses, but that was like a pipe dream for her.
I think the pandemic kind of helped shift her into going like, I do like being home. I would like to travel less. And then we moved out where we had some more space around us. And the horses came into the picture in a crazy, really awesome way. And so now it's shifted even more to, Oh, wow.
This is like, no longer a pipe dream. there's horses here. We have time and I'm touring a lot, but she's found a really good balance being home and being gone and not stressing about the, well, if you put out a record, you better be ready to be 10 months out, on the road and trying to,
[00:08:28] Nicki: but I still have that like old residual like nagging and Jesse's been really good I just get like, well, you know, I need to do this and this.
And I, you know, I still get pulled back to that old school cycle way of thinking. And Jesse's been just remind me, there's A lot of other ways to approach.
Well, Especially now. I mean, it's just not what it was. like, obviously touring helps an album cycle, but the truth is, is thatdoesn't have to be part of the process if you don't want it to be like, you can kind ofcustom fit.
[00:08:56] Jesse: whatever you want it to be because it's like now with streaming being what it is and as much as we hate it with social media content being what it is you can put out a record especially now because we have the studio at home I know you guys can relate it's like the overhead kind of thing just changed not like okay the budget for this record is this which means that this is what we need to recoup it's like we made a record at home and we made it with all of our loved ones and friends and it's likewe can make music and put it out for people to hear without the stress of Well, if you're gonna do it's a waste if you don't follow it up with a certain thing I feel like we're finding a happy medium and our day to day life now is pretty incredible because we Have the studio here, which is where we are and Nikki.
We have the barn out back and she's really
[00:09:35] Nicki: where Jesse lives And she lives at the barn, so it's
[00:09:38] Jesse: literally the, it's kind of amazing, like, literally, we wake up, we're like office workers, it's like we meet at the coffee station in the morning, and we're kind of like, okay, cool, how'd you sleep?
Great. And then it's just okay, I'll see ya later. And she goes out to the barn, and I'm here, and it's great.
[00:09:52] Aaron: Yeah. I catch her at break time. I'll go inside to like get a snack or get lunch. It's like, Hey, yeah, cool, cool. All right. I got to go. See ya.
[00:09:59] Jesse: good? Okay, see you
[00:10:00] Michaela: I, I love it. And I like, these conversations because it also feels like growth. It feels like maturing and like, rather than being on the hamster wheel of what we think we're supposed to do, like really being intentional about the way we want to live.
everything's different of putting out records, like even press wise, the old routine was like, you put out a record, you hire a publicist, you get, NPR, Rolling Stone Country, like all the little things and then you go on tour.
And now it's like. are those even things? Like, it's, It's hard. A lot of things are behind paywalls because they're struggling to make money. So it's not accessible to a lot of people. The landscape is just drastically different. So it feels cool to talk to others who are also honest about that battle of the deeply ingrained routine and habit.
I have that too, 100%. I just got back from three weeks of touring, which is the most I've done straight this year. And I felt myself have this kind of battle in my head on Sunday. I was like, oh, I'm cured of like, the pain. Post tour blues because I love my home life so much So I'm just happy to be home and also I'm six months pregnant So I'm exhausted so I don't want to be on the road all the time But I had this deep habitual like down day and I was like weird I feel kind of like depressed today and Aaron was like Yeah, you just spent three weeks on tour and teaching at a camp and surrounded by people and like Getting that adrenaline high every single night and I was like, oh, yeah, I guess I'm not cured was like this is just like Yeah there. And the, intention of, unpacking what that is and when it happens. And, there is a shift in that you have language around it, which is pretty huge.
yeah, and my former self would have been like I just got to go back out as soon as possible and this time it was like well, no, I I'm not and You I just had a day where I let myself be bummed. And then the next day I felt great. And I was like, Oh yeah, I love our routine. I teach in my office on zoom and Aaron's out in the studio and our kid is like running around with a babysitter at school.
And I'm like, this is great. The road will be there. Shows will come back. Life is long. It's all good.
[00:12:18] Jesse: it's funny because it's like, I feel like as we shift how we're looking at touring and, living as musicians, the cliche still remain the same where it's likethe first week back from tour is still the hardest. And the first week back on tour is still the hardest, even if you find the perfect balance, the cliche remains the same as it'slike, it is hard to come home.
And it is hard to leave. Yeah, it's the transition. It's always going to be hard. even if it's like a weekend you go back out for a weekend and see all the people that you love you're like, Oh yeah, likethis is amazing. but when you're at the airport.
Going there. You're like, what am I doing right now? I just left my home and my animals and my loved ones. And it's like, why do I keep doing this? And then you get there and you're like, Oh, this is the best. And then you get home. You're like, I should have tacked on some more shows
to that.
Like we should have made that as long, you know, it'sit really is funny. It's like, you know, it's, it is exhausting. Yeah, it's hard to rewire that way. But then again, also the truth is that. I don't think it ever changes. I don't think that it ever gets easier or harder. It'sjust what it is for people who travel Their career is forever intertwined with having to leave in some capacity,
[00:13:25] Michaela: Mm hmm. Yeah.
[00:13:26] Nicki: Yeah. But I also, when I go out um,I mean, I'm very comfortable at home, and there's a lot to take care of, and so I get a lot of stress over like, who's going to watch the horses, and who's going to take care of the dog, and, I can't even imagine with kids, it's 10 times that kind of concern.
Only I can't bring a horse on an airplane with me.
[00:13:43] Aaron: Yep.
[00:13:44] Nicki: but that said, What I feel when I go back out kicking and screaming is Oh, this is part of me too. As soon as I like wake up in a new city, I'm like on my phone looking for the coffee shop and then I'm like walking there and I'm,I have nothing to worry about except the day, really all of my concerns about home life really do fall away.
And that balance I think is something that I really need mentally and emotionally and spiritually. And I realized Oh, this is me too.
[00:14:15] Aaron: hmm. Mm I am a complex human as we all are, and not just one thing will be enough. It's finding the balance, which I think the scale will tip throughout our lifetimes.
[00:14:27] Nicki: One way or the other.
[00:14:28] Aaron: love that. when you're on tour, all you have to think about is the day, and it's that. It's so compartmentalized, and every day is Different and unique but it's the same framework, it's very modular the same kind of thing is going to happen in the morning The middle of the day is going to be the same kind of thing but it's you know What it lookslike day to day is different.
So it feels exciting exciting and perpetual and all of that and then Coming home. It's like getting to the end of the moving walkway at the airport, flat escalator, whatever you
[00:14:54] Jesse: Yeah.
[00:14:55] Nicki: People
[00:14:56] Aaron: where yeah, the people move and we're all of a sudden you're like, you have to start up all these things that you have going at home.
Yeah.
[00:15:00] Jesse: I know.
[00:15:01] Aaron: taking care of animals or, just taking care of your house, like whatever it is, these are things that require a longer vision. they're like a process that you chip away at over time. I guess I would say like the momentum is the same, but they're just different measurements.
I rarely tour or even play shows in town anymore. so it's really jarring.
know. Congratulations. it's jarring, you know, like I'm very grateful to be able to like, Just pick and choose and play shows with friends I try to keep it to like one a month because like I get anxiety about it I'm like, oh I have to do this oh, you know It's so weird the mindset of learning songs in the studio where you're like blazing the trail is way different than learning songs especially being a drummer where you're learning parts if i'm not At least grabbing the essence of what that part is.
The whole song is going to be completely different.
[00:15:48] Jesse: Yeah bass player over here, man.
[00:15:49] Aaron: Yeah, you get
[00:15:50] Jesse: I tried to like explain that to people The difference between touring because I very good at being a touring musician I'm a good traveler. i'm pro in the sense that likeI base everything around what time my likeband call is like i'm really good at it but the truth is is That's the part that feels like straight work to me.
Is the show every night. I don't get all my joy out of recreating the song every night. The way that it's supposed to be recreated every night.feel much more confident coming up with parts. And you're blazing the trail and like getting find really fun ways to make something work. when you're on tour You're doing reps, Every once in a while I get that little high of wow This is awesome.
This is crazy and you're playing in front of people and it's amazing and beautiful But it'sa whole different mindset
[00:16:31] Aaron: can imagine that that probably got spiked with the gig you've had the last couple years with John Fogerty where it's even non musicians know what those bass parts are. You know what I mean? So they're going to be like, that's not the song.
[00:16:40] Jesse: totally right, especially because those CCR songs are like,ingrained in everybody. And that that is part of what I mean when like, every once in a while you get that like, high of seeing people crying, singing along to Have you ever seen the rain?
And you're like, Oh, yeah, this is amazing. but it's amazing how many nights on tour you see somebody, air. Drumming a fill that's on the record that Richard our drummer doesn't hit the same anymore because it's like, you know Thingsdo evolve on the road, but it's funny how many like you do see people that are like
[00:17:09] Michaela: What?
[00:17:10] Jesse: That's not it.
That wasn't the fill, it's hilarious Yeah, yeah,
[00:17:15] Michaela: who just does it exactly the way
[00:17:17] Jesse: don't you know the record?
[00:17:19] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:17:20] Aaron: I can imagine it feels a bit like a touring Broadway production in a way. you're playing a role, whoever, you're percent it's crazy because you know, it's bands like Dead Company or something like, whole trip is based on every night being like this fluid motion, where it's with John Fogerty He has so many hits that we can't change the set list.
[00:17:38] Jesse: we literally can't. There's too many hits that people want to hear every night we do the first seven songs and the last seven songs are always the same. there's like maybe a five, six song, thing in there where we get, to likethrow in some deep cuts, but it's like,we're playing the same set upalmost every night, like I've had to rework my brain a little bit to go like, take this as you're getting so good at your instrument,
[00:18:00] Nicki: you're just really getting in on the bass guitar.
[00:18:04] Jesse: wish more than anything I was like okay, set the metronome and do your scales for two hours a day, you know, or whatever it is that like, all the true badasses do,that's what that's called, but the truth is, is that if I have alone time, I'm like, okay well, let's try to make something or let's try to write something or make whatever it is. And, and so it's been a good exercise for me.
[00:18:24] Aaron: I love that idea too and I've heard people talk about it before where it's like Being in a situation where you're playing with the same people every night or every week You know a regular Consistency is a way you can really grow as an artist and grow as a musician It allows you to focus on the more minute things, my favorite example is talking about like, I would love to tour the way The band toured when they were playing with Ronnie Hawkins where you're like in the same town for a week And then you go like an hour down the road and you're in the same town for a week that's why they sound the way they do It's like they were just every night night after night not traveling playing whatever the american legion or the vfw whatever.
It is like the dance hall in town You get a band like The Band. I mean, they slam.
[00:19:02] Jesse: that's what's interesting to me about, and part of, the motivation of one aspect of these conversations we like to have is that there's so many different ways that our brains as creative, artistic people, what gets each of us excited is different, depending on what our role is in any given situation.
[00:19:20] Michaela: Some of us really thrive in the studio, some of us really thrive in the performance space and depending on the conditions of the performance space, and there's not just one way. That we all are as creative musicians and that stuff is really interesting to me because my younger self when I didn't know about the ins and outs of what this life was, like couldn't imagine why anyone would ever leave, a successful band.
And it's like now I know there's a million reasons why you would leave a successful band or even like, being a side musician where you're like, your role is to play The part, even if in your instance where you're playing in front of thousands of people, that high can wear off because of the way that you're feeling it or receiving it based on what your role is on stage.
Just on this tour, I took Lauren Balthrop. she played keys and guitar and sang for me and like, we mostly, we're opening, so set would stay the same most nights, but like, I tell stories I'm the front person I'm interacting with the audience, I then go sell merch and, talk to people I get my energy from that, so by the end of the night 31 in the morning.
I was so high on adrenaline and all day. I'm like exhausted and like, I can't believe we have to play a show. I'm nauseous. Still, I'm pregnant, and Lauren, I would come back from selling merch and she'd be like, everything's already packed up. I already loaded out the vans ready to go.
Let's go. And I'm exhausted. And I would be like, Let's go dancing. And Lauren was like, You are six months pregnant. You're insane. We need to go to bed. And we talked about it and she was like, I'm not getting the same high you're getting on stage she's like, it's so fun for me, but I'm not the star in this moment.
I'm just playing my parts and I have a great time, I'm not getting fed the way you're getting fed. by the end of the night, when I'm sitting backstage, like I'm ready to roll out and you need to calm down.
[00:21:12] Nicki: Yeah. It sounds like a pretty good duo to me. Yeah.
[00:21:15] Jesse: Yeah.
[00:21:15] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:21:16] Nicki: right?
[00:21:16] Michaela: She's the best.
[00:21:17] Jesse: is true though, because it's also just had this realization, there is something about perpetually being a sideman.
It's like,you're always on other people's calendars and always on other people's schedules. So it's like,I don't think I'd even want to be the star or whatever.
but there is something about, even in Lauren's case, she knows that you're at the merch table and you have to be there for as long as there's people there, you know? And from that moment on, that waiting part.
[00:21:39] Aaron: is exhausting. you can fill up whatever time you have, but the truth is, is like,you are waiting on other people's schedules. in the best of cases, it still is tough you're never quite in control of what'sYeah, you don't have much autonomy at all when you're not the boss. Nikki, can you talk to that a little bit? you've had that experience on both sides
[00:21:59] Nicki: you might even when you are the boss you have no control. You know what I mean? Because I remember So many nights on such long tours where I would do the thing, you know play the show go out to the merch table Which to me was just utterly exhausting and really hard on my voice and I would get done and I was like super thrash and All I wanted to do was leave I'd walk back into the venue and nothing had been touched on stage and it was like soul crushing and nobody in the band could be found and it was like brutal, totally brutal.
So even though I was quote unquote, the boss, which. That's just an illusion too, in a way, especially when you have a band that's this band that I had for over 10 years was super organic and like a family. And we were kids when we put it together. Minus one person who was an adult, we're all adults, but just that to say, like the illusion of control is really real.
And, um, I have a conflicting and I'm not even sure that it's consistent for me relationship with performing because sometimes I think I like it and then sometimes I think I actually don't really like being the center of attention like over the years I've been doing this really what I've realized I like about music in general is doing with people I love.
And as soon as that's not the case, speaking back, Michaela to what you were saying about when bands break up, when that love gets lost, it just becomes something different. there's like an authenticity that leaves when there's not. love and respect there for me. That's just such a big part of music for me.
And that's why I like doing it with people that I care about. And I've done that and I've also done hired guns and gone out with people I barely knew and they both had their benefits. And I'm not saying that, I didn't develop great friends out of being in a band with strangers.
I did, but. it was a different thing and it was a lot more lonely, and it was a hard place to be. I really realized Oh, that's what I love about music is those interactions on stage, all the moments in between the 22 hours where you're in the van and you're bonding over stupid jokes whatever it is that you cultivate.
In that time where you're stuck together, it can be really beautiful or it can be really painful.
[00:24:23] Jesse: It's a relationship, but it's
[00:24:25] Nicki: like
[00:24:25] Jesse: five relations. No,
I know. Yeah. But that, but that's just
[00:24:29] Nicki: it. It's like, it's, relationship. So it's inevitably going to be really hard.
[00:24:32] Jesse: It's like you bond over stupid jokes. And then the next day somebody tries to like, make that same joke. And you're just like, can you just get out of my space right now? I need, I need you gone right now.
[00:24:42] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:24:42] Jesse: my favorite thing somebody ever said about being in a van He's like I generally approach it like I assume I'm probably turning the pages in my book too fast for somebody So I try to just be like as soft as possible and let things roll and we'll deal with it later
[00:24:55] Michaela: You're definitely annoying someone in some way that we just won't ever know, you know mouth
[00:25:01] Nicki: Oh, yeah. Oh,yeah. Well, and it always like blew my mind. I remember. when I toured with my band, The Gramblers, for a really long time, we kind of had this like unspoken policy where you weren't headphones, There was not like the radio. There was not a collective we're all going to listen to the same thing on the radio and everybody would go in headphones or we'd talk or whatever.
But the van is this sacred space where if you want to listen to something, just do it on your own. And then when I got into this ban with my hired guns. It was like, all right, what's on the radio? What are we listening to? And I just got so much anxiety, just wait, what?
We're like all going to listen to the same thing. Like, What if that person doesn't want to listen to that song? And, trying to manage this new environment based on my old, experiences. it was a lot. And talk about control. It's like. you know what?
There's 10 million ways to do it. And not one is right or wrong.
[00:25:53] Michaela: It's such a culture it's so different in any setting, like how people like to eat. we've toured where like we like to eat well and we've gone on tours where people are like not cool with the fact that we're like, let's stop at Whole Foods and I've had friends complain about other tours where like, oh, they eat like trash or then a different person is being like, no one would stop in McDonald's it's so everybody has a different preference.
[00:26:17] Aaron: this person in particular she's talking about great musician, great friend. And he was just out with us for a tour. And his main gig was with somebody else. And we were back in Nashville, like a couple months later and saw somebody in This person's main gig, in natural as you do, he comes up.
He goes, I hear you guys like to eat real well on the road. And we're yeah, word gets out there.
[00:26:35] Jesse: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
[00:26:37] Michaela: But that might've been something that was like driving him crazy. And if it's not a long term project and it's just a week of shows, you're like, do we address these things?
Do we just let it slide? Do we just get through this? I'm always like no wonder so much crazy stuff happens because nobody's helping musicians learning. Like social, emotional, whatever, because it's such a weird profession where your work together, but you are together 24 seven and have no freedom.
[00:27:07] Aaron: Right. are and there's no written code of conduct, I mean, I remember I had a new tour manager and at this point I think we were traveling in a car cuz I think I was just opening solo and he wore so much cologne and it was like So gnarly and I tried to stick it every day.
[00:27:29] Nicki: I was like, okay, you can do this rolling down the windows. And finally I had to just be like, dude, this is kind of rough, but you can't wear cologne. It's just like too small of a space, and. When you're at work or like a regular place, there might be like, please no fragrances or dah, dah, dah, dah.
You know, you just start to learn how to articulate with compassion and then realize all the things that can come up and then they get less loaded. Cause you're just like, dude, no cologne, or whatever it is.
[00:27:56] Jesse: Yeah.
[00:27:57] Aaron: exactly. that's such a thing, like, the difference between being new in a place and having been there for a long time and understanding boundaries Expecting that there are boundaries there and knowing to respect people's boundaries or anticipate what their boundaries might be.
But then also like respecting your own boundaries. I remember like, in my early twenties when I was really starting to tour all the time, we'd show up at a venue and the bass player would just leave before loading, you know, we'd get there early and all that. And they'd leave and I'd be like, what the hell?
we just got here. Like Let's hang. we're supposed to hang. after I'd been on the road for a while, I'm like, Oh, that's really smart. If you have a minute, take your space take your autonomy, take your free will you have what, like, three hours a day where you can do whatever you want, take, take all 180 minutes,
[00:28:41] Jesse: And it's funny just talking about working with people that you don't know versus people that you know really well, would say that it actually can be a double edged sword.
Cause right now in the Fogarty band, it's the greatest thing in the world. the drummer is my brother in law who I've been touring with for the last eight years we were in band of heathens together before. Now we're with Fogarty. The keyboard player is my best friend since seventh gradewe like had our first band together, it's very convoluted how it ended up being this way, and then it's John's sons who are two of my best friends, and then, it's one of those things where it'sthe best thing ever until it isn't, because it's like you start to have those moments where there's so much context surrounding your relationship that it's not just Are you getting lunch today or it's
not the like, okay I'll see you, you know at soundtrack. It's like that kind of like well, what's he mad about? Why did you know? Like why did he why weren't we texting about coffee this morning? And it's so it's they're like the closest people in my life to me outside of nikki it can be Amazing and it can also be the most I mean she knows She gets all the phone calls and text messages.
I
[00:29:40] Nicki: believe you're
[00:29:41] Jesse: looking for the word awfulsome.
Awfulsome, yeah.
But, yeah,
[00:29:45] Michaela: the same. I think, we have a lot of grace and expectation for that in our intimate romantic relationships of like our marriages, our partnerships of course you drive each other crazy sometimes. but I think there's less conversation around friendships and work.
[00:30:00] Jesse: Colleagues and relationships we think that something's severely wrong if we have that with each other versus just having more of a accepting natural dialogue of likeof course we're gonna get on each other's nerves and need to talk things out and Have conflict and that doesn't mean our working relationship or our friendship needs to end I'm like still continually baffled by how many relationships have ended over the years that I'm like Couldn't we have had a conversation and like move past this? you get into arguments with your partner every, however often you guys fight. Thankfully, we don't fight that much anymore. crazy and I know that bands do have therapists But it's crazy that's not a more like developed accessible Resource that we can use yeah, but would they use it, that's the thing Well, that's like everybody technically has access to therapy,
[00:31:00] Nicki: but I mean, you know, that's like a very specific thing You know and you hear about Companies doing like, team building exercises and icebreakers and that kind of stuff It's like almost like it'd be cool if there was like a training or something for bands where you could learn skills on how to communicate and have conversations and have conflict and know that it's not, the end of the world or, I'm saying it would take a lot for people to step up and actually do it.
But there's really not that many resources Yeah. Either out
[00:31:29] Aaron: found our new niche.
to spend the other 22 hours like a
[00:31:33] Jesse: Yeah. Have you guys ever seen some kind of monster? The, uh, Metallica documentary?
[00:31:37] Michaela: oh, yeah, I
[00:31:38] Aaron: Oh my gosh. It'sI haven't seen the whole
[00:31:40] Nicki: I wanna see that
[00:31:41] Jesse: it is the most just for everybody out there, if you haven't seen some kind of monster, it's one of the greatest rock and roll films of all time.
They do have a band therapist. Yeah. And it's while they're making their album Saint Anger. And it is, amazing.
[00:31:53] Aaron: I don't know if you've seen this. I think it's masterclass, the company that like makes these, how to do X, Y, Z Metallica has a masterclass on how to be a band
[00:32:02] Jesse: Oh gosh.
[00:32:03] Aaron: after that came out.
[00:32:04] Nicki: interesting.
[00:32:05] Michaela: the, who's the lead singer of Metallica?
[00:32:07] Jesse: James Hetfield.
[00:32:09] Michaela: Okay. Yeah, no, I don't. Who's Trent Reznor.
[00:32:11] Aaron: He's in
[00:32:13] Jesse: nine inch
[00:32:13] Aaron: he's also a prolific film composer.
[00:32:15] Michaela: Okay. Cause I feel like he has talked to publicly about. mental health struggles and stuff like that. So,I'm really bad with The Rock. Yeah, Metallica Lars Ulrich is the drummer and he's the one that said Napster's bad and everyone was like, Fuck you, Lars!
[00:32:28] Aaron: And now everyone's like, Man you're, you're right.
[00:32:30] Michaela: Okay, gotcha.
[00:32:31] Jesse: Metallica is they've really dipped their toes in a lot of different hot topics over the years.
[00:32:36] Aaron: Yeah, they're not shy for
[00:32:37] Jesse: No.
[00:32:37] Michaela: I'm curious since both of you guys Jesse with you working with John Fogerty and Nikki with you working with Phil Lesh, like you both have worked intimately with musicians who have multi decade long very successful on a big stage level career path. Have you learned anything from seeing those up close of like, what are ways to aspire to be building this kind of life and also like business and company and culture and also without.
Talking shit any things you've learned. Oh, maybe I want to do things differently
[00:33:11] Nicki: Yeah. I mean, I remember when I, first met Phil Lash, he was pretty much just opening his music venue. Terrapin Crossroads in San Rafael, which is sadly now closed. But I worked with him pretty intimately for the opening of that. And we played, I think it was like every night of the week. And
when I first started hanging out with him, it was probably 15 years ago, which is, I don't know, was how old, 70?
[00:33:35] Jesse: 69,
[00:33:36] Nicki: But even at that age, I couldn't believe his work ethic. He was playing every night of the week. When he opened Terrapin Crossroads, he played I'm not kidding, like a month straight Every night, different set every night and I played a lot of those shows with him and I just remember anytime I would get tired doing my own stuff because at that time I was really pushing and we had a lot of, opportunity at that time or kind of you know, on the rise and anytime I got tired, I would just think If Phil can do this, I can do it.
I'm not even doing it at the pace he's doing it. I just think that he has always kept the music first for himself and the authenticity of what the Grateful Dead is, which is taking chances and taking risks and giving people a chance. the thing I love, I think most about Phil is he's really committed to elevating up and coming artists.
and giving people a chance to just prove themselves and grow and develop. He's really trusting and he really just wants to, experience joy and musical communication. And you know, he's less concerned with the optics of things and, Ticket sales and he still plays out and he plays and he does great But I can see him transitioning now The Terrapin Crossroads is sold to just sort of wanting to do more things locally and he'll always Play music until he takes his last breath.
I know that for a fact, but he keeps honing it and customizing it to You The state that he's at, I don't think that he's trying to maintain this level of productivity forever, when I met him and he was 69, he was still sort of operating at this really intense level. And in my arc of knowing him, I can see him sort of making adjustments and making.
His life just in balance for him. really find that inspiring because I know that music will always be in his life and I feel the same way. But I think relationships change with people, they do too with, music and my relationships certainly oscillates with music constantly. always been a real mentor for me, and I have a ton of respect for him and what he's done and grown. And also, we don't have kids, but made some really cool kids, too. Gramlash is like one of my favorite humans, and I get to play music with him all the time, so it's cool to see it. Perpetuating Graham just like that, rigor for music and playing and Graham hits it super hard and you can see his dad and him and just he's constantly on the go playing music and all different kinds of ways.
I'm actually going to play with him this weekend in Veil, so I'm stoked to
[00:36:10] Aaron: Oh, cool.
[00:36:11] Jesse: Yeah just to add on to that in my own case the thing that I like have definitely learned the most from John is he turns 80, in May. So he's 79 now. That guy practices.
that guy has never stopped practicing and he is so diligent. It's easy just to say work ethic, but the truth is, is it's like, if we have a bus ride He has headphones in with a He has like a little, uh,solo guitar amp where you can plug in your headphones and play.
If we have a five hour bus ride, he's playing for four hours. he's practicing. he wakes up at 5am and practices. every sound check we have, he walks the entire bus.
will play a little bit of a song, a jam of a song for as long as it takes him to walk the entire venue and tune the room. And there's never a point where he's like, Oh, whatever. Like it's sold out. Like, Let's just, get up there and play the set. It's like,how's the room sound? He's like, these subs aren't right. And it's like,he doesn't have to do that at all. Like a lot people like in hisplace wouldn't even go to soundcheck.
it's amazing. how much work and thought he puts into everything. he's just so, you know, music forward and, audience forward. And like One of the things like he always says is like we're not paying for the empty seats, we're paying for the people who showed up.
even John Fogerty, plays to like half filled rooms sometimes, just cause it's,way it goes, and it's like,I've never once seen him. Not put in the 100 percent140 percent that he puts in just because it's low ticket sales or something.
And that's,
it is rare for it to be low ticket sales for him. But sometimes it just happens that way. And it's like,he never phones anything in. As you were talking about with Phil and Phil's son, Graham, now John's sons are in the band.
I don't know what that middle period was for him. CCR broke up in 1972. It was a band for like four years, five years. And then there was this huge. Gap in his life where I bet he wasn't super thrilled to practice and work I bet the kids coming around have also reignited something for both those guys like the love of music and the love of practice and work ethic and everything I would be curious to see if there was ever that like lol period, you know for either of these guys or any of these guys that have success in the 60s and 70s and then get through the late 70s, 80s and just a whole different, landscape.
[00:38:19] Nicki: it kind of goes back to like making music with people you love to, you
[00:38:22] Aaron: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:38:24] Nicki: Of their, Decades long career, they're both playing with their kids, which is pretty cool, which, you know, shows that music is a really vulnerable and intimate thing and you want to do it with people who you love and trust.
[00:38:38] Michaela: about like your own relationship with music oscillating through different periods of life, like depending on what's going on, how much time and energy you have to spend for it or with it. So like, for those guys, what their role was like in their family with their kids were younger and not yet playing instruments, how much time they were able to dedicate to it.
I think about even with just having one kid, when Georgia was a newborn, I used to play piano all the time because I could just wear her on my chest and practice piano. She yells at me to stop singing anytime I play anything. So like, she wants to listen to my recordings, but she yells, no, mom, you only sing on stage.
I don't get to play music that much around the house. As much as I tell a three year old that she can't boss me around. Yeah,
[00:39:30] Nicki: mom that? singing.
Jesse's parents are both incredible musicians, his mom's fantastic singer. But I remember her telling me a story of like when you were little, and it was because of that it was because You knew that that was her work and you didn't want it to, like, happen when, she was at home.
It was like your time.
[00:39:48] Jesse: Yeah, I mean, maybe, yeah, I could see that, but the truth is that I'm sure she'll grow out of that because the truth is, is like, it's likeso. ingratiated in her that it'sa beautiful way to grow upin a house with musicians and in a studio and instruments everywhere. And it'sthere's those little like moments where it's maybe annoying or something where you're like, do you have to be doing that right now? You know, but the truth is, is it'll be the greatest thing for her ever when she's older.
[00:40:14] Aaron: Cause it's It's like music's the best. I mean, It's such a funny, stupid thing to say, but it's true. It's like,to have a relationship with that, even if she goes off and becomes a lawyer, a doctor, hopefully let's plan on that. that is our retirement plan.
[00:40:26] Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Good luck. I mean, I will just say side note.
My parentsare the best, most supportive parents ever, but I was a really good athlete growing up. I played soccer. That was my sport. And when I told my dad I wanted to quit soccer and I was starting a band and stuff, my dad was just like, You were so this is not the way this is not the way but as I started getting older and started becoming an actual musician, dad,my parents are always so supportive, but they're only like thing they could say was just like, good luck out there, pal.
You saw how it was for us. It's like, remember those months where we ate spaghetti every night. It's like,good luck. I hope you know that that's what's happening for you. You know?
[00:41:04] Michaela: Jesse you were so sweet like early on in having Georgia when she was a baby, I remember you were like you are my parents I grew up with you guys as my parents and then I was so funny when we saw you at the airport You were like you guys are even more emulating my family because now we're having a little boy three years younger than I am
[00:41:22] Jesse: Yeah, literally exactly the same. Yeah.
[00:41:25] Aaron: when we're going to announce that we're naming our boy Jesse Noah, so
[00:41:31] Jesse: I mean it's true, and it's funny now like, being,just in place where we are, and at our, age wise and world wise, it's funny like, having, Friends that are just more and more having kids, you know, obviously there's sacrifices to make in a career like, you will sacrifice parts of your career for your kids, but you, that would happen in any career, you know, I loved how I grew up, like, it was amazing, it was the best, and so me getting to tell people that, it's, like, I do feel like there's a little bit of, like, a sigh of relief for some people,
For sure. That was the part that was encouraging I left that out. Not that you were like, Oh, you guys aren't our parents, but you were like, it was a beautiful way to grow up. I loved growing up in the family I did with artist parents and
and my parents left for tour. started to get old enough, they toured a bunch. Andthen they had parties. The kids had parties. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.I mean, High school, that was definitely a perk. and just like growing up because my dad had a studio in the house And there was never a dull moment we had the best people ever around even the ones that are like, we all have friends that are like Oh, I really hope that they don't have a long conversation with my child because I have no idea what they're gonna say to them You know that's how I found out about Santa Claus not being real.
I had gotten aGibson SG for Christmas when I was young. my dad's friend, actually I think it was Taras. Taras Pradhaniak, who is a badass bass player, and he's just the best, but he, he was like, oh yeah, I heard your dad got a screaming deal on that SG, I wish I had bought one of those too, I didn't know that that, you know, and I was just like, what are you talking about, yeah, Santa brought it.
[00:43:04] Aaron: You know, Electric guitar is the devil's gift, you know, so there it
[00:43:08] Michaela: it wouldn't be Santa, yeah, of course, it couldn't be, it's the dad. just have one more kind of general question. And Nikki, I guess starting with you, like besides horses, what have you found in the other 22 hours of your life that's helped you stay grounded on your path and reconnect to music and also like your journey of letting yourself have that kind of in and out relationship with music.
What are the other things besides taking care of your horses?
[00:43:35] Nicki: mean, that's a big one. It's a really big one is the horses. And doing chores, which I find really grounding. And I really love having that kind of structure. And going out, I do actually.
[00:43:47] Aaron: Yeah. I had a chore day this weekend and I was like, this is great. It feels
[00:43:51] Nicki: feels really good. You know, it's like, you can see it from start to finish and it's just like, Oh my gosh. Whereas, writing a song, you can have that too, but you can also have, something take. days or weeks or years to actually see any kind of completion. I will say I am definitely a goal oriented person.
So, We just recorded my new record in the spring and getting ready for that and getting the songs ready for that. That's really what like jumpstarts me and gets me focus. Cause I have about a zillion, 32nd voice memos of ideas that I've collected over the years and. I need a goal, like, a date to actually kick my butt into gear and sift through that stuff and get serious about it.
I really do love spending time outside. I think the repetition of just walking, whether it's on a horse or on my own two feet, there's something, I think scientifically proven to about that lateral repetition that is very meditative. and can kind of get me into a good space. I've also feel like one thing that I have become aware of is as much as I love listening to things and taking things in, I'm like a huge true crime podcast fan and like murder mystery and like, I love that stuff.
Love it.
[00:45:09] Aaron: Mhm.
[00:45:10] Nicki: And I realized for like a few months, I was like ingesting so much of that, that. It started to have this like compound effect on me where I just didn't really even realize it. But after talking to my therapist, she's like, Take the earbuds out, listen to the sounds and listen to the nature and listen to your steps.
And I had become so detached from that, even though I was outside and I was doing all the stuff that I normally do, I was so still just insulated.
[00:45:35] Aaron: Mhm.
[00:45:36] Nicki: So taking a little break from that has been really nice. And also just being aware of what I am ingesting, like as much as I love true crime.
can start to get like darker thoughts.
[00:45:46] Jesse: Yeah. Maybe just not at bedtime too,
you know?
[00:45:49] Michaela: yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:50] Aaron: that's so true. Like frequent changes to your routine. Like I think about that a lot. Like, With Michaela's family, her dad was in the navy. So she grew up in the military and just the act of moving every two years It's not like he changed jobs but he was stationed at a new place and had different responsibilities because it kept him sharp and kept his awareness tight and it's like Oh, you can do that in your own life at home
[00:46:10] Jesse: she does really great leather work.
[00:46:12] Nicki: Oh, that's just such a side hobby. Yeah, but that's what I
[00:46:15] Jesse: think,
[00:46:15] Nicki: that's what she's talking about.
Oh yeah, do like to work with leather. Jackie Berkley taught me how to make sourdough bread. The best sourdough. So I'm like very, very, very excited about that.
[00:46:24] Aaron: Best sourdough.Are you guys drowning in sourdough starter?
[00:46:27] Nicki: I do not keep discard. She's doing really good, yeah. And I know it's wasteful, but I just keep what I need. I'm also a Virgo, and I'm like minimalist. This is the story of our lives,
[00:46:35] Jesse: yeah.
[00:46:36] Aaron: Likewise. I went full cliche during the pandemic. I got into sourdough, I got into kombucha, and it was amazing, but like, excess fermented whatever was just taking over our house and Michaela got you made like that was like chat like
[00:46:49] Michaela: Pancakes.
Yeah with chives. So it's like more savory and it's great because I am lazy and I don't like to go through the whole process of making bread, Jesse, me and Jesse, Aaron and Nikki. I'm a Gemini on the cusp of Taurus and it makes me feel like I have many personalities.
Super organized minimalist is not really one of them. But, um, The sourdough starter you don't have to do anything to it. You just plop anything No,
[00:47:17] Aaron: you don't have to do anything grab it immediately
[00:47:19] Nicki: like you just straight up use the starter?
[00:47:21] Aaron: yeah, I didn't touch it because like my Virgo brain was like, oh I need to be organized I need to do it properly. This is another thing that's going to take days and like no she found somethingThat was just like you just Caleb proof. Yeah, it was just like you want to eat this right now?
Cool Yeah, that's
[00:47:34] Michaela: that's my vibe
[00:47:35] Jesse: I know I I
[00:47:36] Michaela: Oh god, that's hard
[00:47:37] Jesse: I want to figure out how to make because you can use it to make pizza dough, too Oh, yeah, which that is and we have a little pizza oven that we do to figure out how to use we
[00:47:45] Aaron: do. nice. Is a Sounds like a perfect combo right there.
[00:47:48] Michaela: Nice. What about you, Jesse? Outside music, what's your day to day non music habits that help you?
[00:47:55] Aaron: like I said, he lives in the studio. I was gonna say, I was like, this dude, this dude has a brand new studio, he's not doing
[00:48:01] Jesse: do there's the true answer to that is I'm a huge sports junkie. I am a sicko sports fan. So I just finished mixing her record it's a great thing to have as just like a little escape for me, outside of the sports world.
It's the, I'm, I'm also very good at relaxing. I'm very good at taking a beat. My dad is the true. God of relaxing. He is like he lives in his own worldhe goes on a little justvacation at he lives out the kitchen tableand he plays chess on his computer and he might as well just have an existence with nothing around him and nobody can say any like you're talking to him and he has no idea that anything's happening.
And so
[00:48:42] Nicki: you crossword,
[00:48:43] Jesse: And so
[00:48:43] Nicki: crossword, I'm a big crossword
[00:48:45] Jesse: guy. And yeah, I,you know, I'm trying to be more active these days. This summer really roughed me up. It was a long, long tour andI've been really having a conversation with myself and with friends and musicians about like alcohol I have buddy who's celebrating three years sober. I just had that conversation with him about how it's like we're going to work at a bar. And then the next day you go to a new city. And you're going to work at a bar.
an interesting thing. So right now that's a big part of my psyche is like understanding relationship with alcohol.
[00:49:17] Nicki: Yeah. Well, And not to like get into that, but like, isn't it always the thing where you show up and like the first and only thing maybe in the green room is beer
[00:49:25] Michaela: Yep. Oh, no, we don't have a buyout, but we have like 38 PBR and a cooler for you. You're like Yeah, it's just amindless cycle. We've, we talk about sobriety a lot on this podcast and we both have had our own evolving time. I'm obviously sober right now. And Erin is mostly sober, pretty much, because it was just like, it becomes a mindless thing where you're just like, whoa, I drink every single night without even thinking about it.
It's become like water that you're just yeah, I'll drink some whiskey or some beer and, this can't be good for me. And am I making decisions that I will be making if I was completely sober and, all the different things of the journey of everybody.
figuring out their own relationship with it, whether it's more mindful and intentional and, or completely sober. I feel like it's a big topic in musician world because it is everywhere for us.
[00:50:16] Jesse: Yeah, it's kind of inevitable. I mean, and it's, this summer in particular was just we played, I think we played something like 52 shows between June 1st and September 11th. So it's a lot. I mean,People hit it harder than that. But it's one of those things where we traveled in every type of way.
on planes, buses, cars, rental cars, jets, like we were literally in every kind of way. And it's,just becomes so normal for beers to be the likerest period or like,every step of the way you have that moment of like, okay, we just landed or we just got to where we're going let's go have a drink Alcoholism in my family is very real.
My parents are both not drinkers just because of how real it is in my family beyond my parents. And they,they're both musicians. So they've, had these reckoning periods their whole lives. I'm very lucky that they got to where they are with it.
[00:51:01] Nicki: And it's a good example for me, but it's like a fluid, relationship To kind of just check on every once in a while and it's, an interesting thingwhen it's a lot easier You know, You're going to have to go to the merch table, like better grab a drink because it's just the social lubricant also.
And the majority of musicians are probably introverted. And so it's like without that sort of lubrication, it's makes it a lot harder. And it's alcohol is just this really easy solution that. Can turn dangerous, but to replace it takes a lot of mindfulness and awareness and creativity and commitment and dedication to like what that's going to be.
I remember, Talking to Anders Osborne we played a show together and I think it was some mountain town and he was meditating backstage and. He played his set and it was like so badass. And afterwards I was like, dude, and he had been sober for, many years at that point.
And I was like, that set was just like incredible. And he was like. takes about two hours of meditation for me to get to that place where I can perform like that, in the old days, maybe it was like five beers and then he could have that. It's not just this easy replacement, it's just such a, an ongoing process.
I just have a lot of compassion and, I'm impressed with people who figure out other avenues to replace it.
[00:52:24] Aaron: Mm hmm. For sure. I will say like, I've, spent more time in venues or bars sober in my 30s than not sober. I can't have a drink at a show anymore and one thing I've noticed is that. the big change, whether it's drinking or having a non alcoholic beverage, whatever is that is the intentionality that really works for me.
So that could be meditating. That could be having, like a very specific tequila. cocktail that you want, but like just being intentional about how you're showing up rather than just like complacent or just like absent minded about it, Jesse, you had mentioned that beers turn out to be like they go to like free time thing and something that I realized in sobriety is everybody thinks having to drink is like something special or like a leisure thing, which like it is, and it
[00:53:05] Jesse: should be
[00:53:06] Aaron: And what took that place for me was like, when I first stepped into being predominantly sober was I'd go and get like. some crazy expensive juice that I like normally wouldn't get that felt Rejuvenating and refreshing and all that and it took a second to be like, man I'm gonna spend like eleven dollars on this juice.
You neverthought about all the money Yeah Yeah. Yeah,fifteen dollars on you know, it's insane
[00:53:28] Nicki: Well, and
[00:53:29] Jesse: even just on the intake level, I, we, I justhad this conversation. Cause it's like right now I'm in place where I'm, trying to,
[00:53:35] Michaela: yeah
[00:53:36] Jesse: my relationship with alcohol. So I'm, alcohol free right now. And we had a session, we finished, we went to a bar afterwards cause we had a friend here who was tracking with us and we're like, let's go get dinner and drinks.
[00:53:46] Michaela: And, I was like, hesitant to have a second Shirley Temple because I was like, Oh, I don't need that much soda. But I was like, I'll drink 10 beers. In like multiple shots of whiskey and be like whatever. It's like we're drinking, you know, it's like it's sofunny the jumps you're willing to do mentally to like Shirley Temple's Yeah, it's like oh, I don'tThat soda.
[00:54:07] Jesse: like, on any given night, you'll drink a whole loaf of bread.
[00:54:10] Michaela: Literally. Yeah a thousand calories. Yeahit's also, it's not just personal. it's also what culturally is accepted around us. It feeds that. if you're around people that are like, of course you do that.
And where it's the opposite, where someone's like, why aren't you drinking? Then it feeds this mentality of of course you have multiple drinks but not that much sugar and soda. it's shifting like whole belief systems which is hard to do if you're in a group where you're one of the only ones trying to make that shift.
Yeah, andjust as I have Historically been a depressed person. I have dealt with depression for a long time I'm a big believer in weed being a helpful thing for people dealing like, I mean, it's a slippery slope when you're talking about sobriety and marijuana all that stuff, but the truth is, is thatfor somebody who's dealt with addiction and depression in my life, It's an amazing likeequalizer to have.
[00:55:01] Jesse: in this time where I'm really reevaluating it it's, likethis guilt around still maybe getting high or something. And it's an interesting,thing to like go through especially inas musicians where it's so normalized,any type of drug use, alcohol consumption, it'sso normalized, it's less normal to not partake in certain things like that. it actually makes me feel more confident in myself. To go through these types of periods to be like, no, I'm good. this is where I'm at right now.
And I'm learning this side of me,
[00:55:28] Nicki: yeah,
[00:55:29] Michaela: brings it full circle of one of the many motivators for these conversations of like,wait, there's a lot of accepted cultural things around being musicians and being in this industry. that maybe are at odds with being healthy human beings and so if we can do any like little contribution of bringing conversations into the mix of There's other ways to do this and it's okay and it might actually really be better for you to do something different
[00:55:56] Aaron: they're all tools, and some tools work sometimes and not the other and You're not going to use a hammer to like fix a mug that you dropped on the floor,
[00:56:03] Nicki: Right and honestly, I don't know if this is quite gonna work in the line of thinking but like sometimes weed hits you great And sometimes it makes you super paranoid. It's like the relationship is just ever changing. Same with alcohol. I don't even mean specifically weed I just mean yeah, that's your relationship with anything is always Shifting and changing and growing and evolving.
Hopefully. Hopefully this is all just an evolution, Michaela, I feel like You know, you and I have learned a lot of parallel lessons and they're unfortunate lessons to have to learn. But honestly, sometimes the best way to learn them is just. Going through them. Yeah, you know, and it's hard because Very few people listen to cautionary tales.
And so I think that this is a really cool podcast and that you're not about cautionary tales It's about what you've learned and about how to build or just hear how other people have learned to build healthy Patterns and presence in this industry.
[00:56:57] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:56:57] Nicki: You guys have shared so many nuggets of wisdom along those lines, and so it's a beautiful spot to put a bow on this. Yeah,perfect ending. Love getting to hang out with you
[00:57:07] Michaela: I know. All right. That'd be great.
[00:57:09] Aaron: I'd love to give you guys hugs at the end of this
[00:57:11] Nicki: Yeah.
[00:57:13] Aaron: Alright,
[00:57:14] Jesse: guys so much. Thank youfor having you.
[00:57:16] Aaron: Thank you. You too. We'll see you soon.
[00:57:18] Jesse: Bye guys.