Ron Pope is a platinum selling independent artist, Blair Clark is CEO and Director of Marketing & Strategy at the independent record label they own - Brooklyn Basement Records - as well as an artist manager, and they are also married. In this special episode we get both the artist's point of view, and the "business" point of view on some of the tools to maintain sanity, and inspiration while building a long and sustainable career around your art.
Ron Pope is a platinum selling independent artist, Blair Clark is CEO and Director of Marketing & Strategy at the independent record label they own - Brooklyn Basement Records - as well as an artist manager, and they are also married. In this special episode we get both the artist's point of view, and the "business" point of view on some of the tools to maintain sanity, and inspiration while building a long and sustainable career around your art.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:07] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is still relatively new, thank you so much for checking us out if you're a brand new listener. And thank you for returning. If you are coming
[00:00:22] Aaron: back from more.
Yeah. For all of you returning listeners, thank you so much. We know there's a ton of podcasts out there and we're honored to have you back. If you've been enjoying this show we'd love if you would just take a minute and please rate us on your listening platform of choice or on YouTube. They're all a simple star system.
You just click Five stars. Four stars, five, definitely five. Five. But the ratings are the one thing that puts us in front of new listeners and keeps us going. The more listeners we have, the more guests we can have. The more guests we have, the more ideas we can share with you guys. And we like to think that this show is from our community, for our community.
So we'd love to share as many ideas from our community with you as we possibly can. We're
[00:01:04] Michaela: not a typical music. PROMO show. We like to talk to artists in their off cycle times when they're not promoting records and tours, and focus on the behind the scenes tools and routines they've found helpful to keep them inspired, creative, and sane, while building a lifelong career around their
[00:01:22] Aaron: art.
And with so much that is outside of our control in this business, we wanted to focus on what is within our control. So we decided to invite some of our friends and some of our favorite artists. On to have conversations about the other times that are normally outside of the public eye and ask him the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? and today is a first on this podcast. Our guests are Ron Pope and Blair Clark.
They are married, but Blair is our first guest that is not an artist. She is a manager and label owner, and Ron's wife.
[00:01:58] Michaela: Yeah. And so I erroneously said it was our first couple, which it was not sorry, shovels and Rope, Carrie and Michael. But this is our first couple that worked together, not on stage.
Blair manages Ron and then they run their record label together and marketing services. So it was really fascinating to get to talk about, where, art and commerce meet in. Their relationship and in their personal life and their roles in the music business, building their individual and communal careers.
[00:02:29] Aaron: Yeah, it was really nice. We talked more on the building sustainable career portion of the mission of this Not just about sustaining creativity, but really sustaining the career and the business side of everything,
[00:02:41] Michaela: the creativity that comes with that part of the career.
[00:02:45] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. Blair got into the industry. She was in marketing first, and then just slowly, organically got more involved in what Ron was doing until they decided we should do this full time. And Blair just Jumped in headfirst and they put everything in storage and got in a van for two years and she really got her hands dirty in every aspect of this business that she was really new to.
From selling merch to being a tm, to being in a van and on a bus, and just really living the whole thing to really understand what the artist life is like on the road, which is one of the hardest parts of our career.
[00:03:20] Michaela: Yeah, we covered a lot of ground of their whole ethos of being a do-it-yourself type of operation.
If the industry doesn't open the doors for you well, then you create the opportunity yourself and you get the job done. We talked about big risks, big gambles, big failures, and big successes, as well as the perspective on longevity and always remembering that this too shall
[00:03:46] Aaron: pass.
So we'll leave it there. And without further ado, here's our conversation with Ron Pope and Blair Clark.
[00:03:52] Michaela: thank you guys for being here. This is exciting because you guys are the first married, couple who work together, who also are parents and Blair, you, besides troubles and rope.
[00:04:02] Aaron: Oh shit.
[00:04:03] Blair: So not the first, but
[00:04:06] Blair and Ron: Scratch all
[00:04:07] Michaela: of that.
[00:04:08] Blair: we do fit that.
description
other than the first ones
[00:04:12] Aaron: But Blair, you are the first guest on here that is not an artist outright. Yes.
[00:04:17] Michaela: Yeah. You're our first manager.
[00:04:19] Blair: feel very honored
[00:04:20] Aaron: Yeah. And I think what Mikayla is getting at is that you're our first, you guys own a record label and run a record label together, and your careers are completely tied together and intermingled, um, without both being on stage at the same time. I haven't seen a Ron Pope show in a while, so maybe you do come on stage sometimes, Blair, but I would assume that you don't.
[00:04:39] Blair: I ask every night, and he never allows it.
[00:04:43] Ron: I've been trying to get her to sing, but like be serious about it for whatever, like almost 20
[00:04:48] Blair and Ron: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:49] Ron: always kidding. I know that she can really sing. She won't do it. I thought that I heard her in the kitchen singing by herself, it was beautiful.
It was like unbelievable. So I walked in the kitchen, I was like, Oh I got her. And then it was the Dixie Chicks or
[00:05:02] Blair: the Chicks, yeah. Singing. Let Him Fly. I was like, That is not me. I wish that was Natalie Mains was me, but it's not. I thought I had
[00:05:11] Ron: her, I thought I
finally caught her trying.
[00:05:13] Aaron: Oh, that's, the opposite over here. Michaela's been trying to get me to stop singing on stage for the last, like eight years.
So,
[00:05:20] Michaela: But now, literally, every time I sing, Georgia says, mama. No,
[00:05:24] Aaron: dada. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I, I win the baby shark competition,
[00:05:28] Ron: Nice.
Frankie never wants me to sing ever at any time. Like sometimes we'll be jamming, she'll be playing harmonica and I'm playing guitar, piano or something, and I'll start singing. She's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, she doesn't
[00:05:39] Blair and Ron: yeah.
[00:05:40] Ron: Yeah.
[00:05:40] Blair and Ron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:05:42] Ron: People are like, oh, you must sing to her all the time.
I'm like, actually, almost never
[00:05:46] Aaron: Yeah. Georgia gets very pointed. She's like, mama. No. Yeah. Like with a pause, it's like, oh. Very clear noticing. I hear you.
[00:05:52] Michaela: well, We thought we would start with your origin story of how you decided to work together. you guys were a couple first, right? And then how did it evolve into Blair becoming your manager and then deciding to build a record label together?
[00:06:08] Blair: I was working in advertising in New York and, we had been together for a few years and you'd had a series of managers that just weren't, they were bozos. I didn't feel like they were so on top of
things. So I just had started helping out here and there mostly with marketing local shows.
I was like, oh, I can do this. My job at that time wasn't super creative, but that's why I went into advertising in the first place, was to be creative. And so I got to be a little creative. I took some photos and then, I don't know, just like more and more stuff kept getting piled on but not piled on.
I was just like, oh, I wanna do this cuz it's fun. And so for a long time I basically had two jobs and I would, do my nine to five then come home and get to do the fun part and scheme with him about whatever was going on and think about your career. eventually, you know, we talked about what it could look like for me to manage him full time.
And I just had a couple of things that I was like, we have to check these off or else I can't quit my job. And one of them was that we had to be credit card debt free and that I had to figure out health insurance for us. And so once we figured that out, we. We did it, we packed all the, all of our belongings, put 'em in storage.
We got in the tour van and went on tour for two years.
[00:07:30] Blair and Ron: Wow. Wow.
[00:07:31] Ron: Yeah.
so for me watching this play out, it was this very, I feel like we're overusing the word organic right now, but it was a very organic thing. It was like, I was managed by a series of idiots.
so then Blair was helping and time goes on and she's like taking phone calls in the middle of the day while she's doing her grownup job. Yeah. and so just like little by little I don't think we even realized that we were moving towards it and then eventually got to be where was consuming so much of her time and I was away on the road so much at that point that it, we were like what are we doing with our lives if we want to be together, we're apart so much of the time and we don't have to be. And so it was a, it felt very natural. and that's how we got to be in business together
[00:08:07] Blair: to begin with. Yeah. And so I didn't really have a lot of mentors at the time.
It was really trial by fire. And I always say I feel like the best learning experience for me as a manager was to go on the road immediately, because otherwise you have no idea what
it's like. It is so hard and you're living out of a suitcase. You can't wash your clothes or your hair for days on end.
And so if I didn't have that really early experience of that, I don't think I would be the kind of manager that I
[00:08:38] Ron: am now. And we're often telling, younger people that we work with that when you wanna work in the music business, it's important to develop an understanding of all of the different parts of it.
If you don't understand touring or you don't understand publishing or you don't understand what record deals look like, if you don't have a complete understanding of what people are doing in the music business, it's hard to advise people that you work with cuz you don't know.
And we have
seen people who are executives at big companies that lack a fundamental understanding of some of these things. And so I think it's an important part of your education as a person working in the music business to get a real understanding of all of the pockets of the yeah, Of the business.
I don't know if everybody has to get in a tour van, in a van like Blair did every level of like, got in the van and then got on a tour bus we've flown, we've taken trains. yeah
[00:09:23] Blair: tour.
I've tmd I've sold merch.
I've carried in all sorts of things to the venue.
[00:09:27] Ron: yeah.
[00:09:28] Blair: true.
[00:09:28] Blair and Ron: I feel like,
[00:09:29] Blair: play out because
I was there.
They're like, what is that poor small girl doing carrying a guitar? I'm like,
[00:09:36] Michaela: I always got the, who drives this big fan for you? Uh, Me, mother. Anyways. Uh, but I think that,
[00:09:43] Blair: Things allowed, but I was going to, and then I pulled it back. So
[00:09:46] Ron: I don't, that I wonder, I'm trying to imagine, a time, we went out on a tour once where we did like the, just the two of us and it was like trains we went to Europe we got to the car rental place and they gave us a bmw and so we got on the auto bond in Germany in a BM bmw, just the two of us.
I feel like at that,
point you're driving in my head, but I don't know.
[00:10:06] Blair: I drove, yeah. I drove parts of that for sure. Cuz who doesn't wanna do that?
[00:10:10] Blair and Ron: yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:11] Blair: I'm like that. I, will sign up for Yes. Yeah.
[00:10:13] Michaela: I feel like to be on the business side, that can be such a challenging disconnect between like industry people and the musicians who are on the road of, especially if booking agents, but also managers. If, radio promoters, anybody who's like managing or making an artist's schedule if they don't have the real life experience to know what it's like to be on tour.
On every level, even in a bus, I've only been on one bus tour and there's still a lot of challenges. I think there's like this, oh, if you're on a bus, you don't have to do anything and you get a good night's sleep. And there's pros and cons to both sides. And I think if people don't understand the wear and tear that happens to your body and your mind, and not understand, like building in, cushions of rest or recovery, it's really detrimental.
And I feel like you see this over and over and over again, especially like new artists or having a big first year or whatever that just get run into the ground because they're like the person managing everything or booking everything is like, no, we have to do as much as possible.
[00:11:20] Blair: You have to do the 6:00 AM radio show. You have to be at local tv, the day after show, which never even makes sense. But Yeah.
I think that some people just don't. Because they don't have the experience. They're like, oh, they're just driving. They love staying up late,
whatever. They can just get up one morning really early and it'll be fine.
But really it is so mentally and physically exhausting on all levels.
[00:11:42] Ron: That's something that I've had to learn respond to. Like it's not that, your publicist is malicious. It's that they don't understand
that even on a tour bus, it's like you're not gonna get into your bunk until very late.
And so to wake up at five 30 in the morning to be on a regional morning show is unrealistic if you have to be on the road for an extended period of time. So I have a hard and fast rule that I do not do that anymore
because I have done it enough times that I know. It's not in my long term interests, the most important thing for me, for my voice is that I get enough sleep and it turns out that enough sleep for me is a whole bunch I need, I need really go to sleep and get like a very serious it's not like, oh, well you can go back to sleep after.
That's not, my voice does not playing that game
and so I don't do any of those things. you have to wake up early in the morning for it on the road, I say no to every one of those and I tell them in advance cuz it's not about saying no to the morning show. like I'm saying yes to, I know I have to play at night.
I've got the meet and greet. I've got all this stuff that I know that I have to say yes to. That's very, very important. That's my job. I'm saying yes to that
[00:12:54] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. prioritizing why you're out there. You're not on a bus driving around to play good moaning Omaha,
[00:13:01] Michaela: except there's that culture of scarcity, of if you're saying no to it, do you think you don't need this? And are you ungrateful? At least that's like the messaging that I've struggled with you know, especially the last couple years, taking a child on tour.
I remember last fall, a tour being asked if I would do like a radio show from the phone at like midnight, and I was like, I really grappled with it because I was like I should say yes to everything and I need all the promotion I can get. And then I was just like, wait a second.
That means you're not gonna go to sleep until after one. This is after you've already played a show and sold your own merch and talked to people all night, and then you're gonna wake up at five because you have a child with you, and that's your situation. Also fighting the like, well, you shouldn't have had a baby then, and brought the baby onto her like,
[00:13:50] Blair: Yeah, I, Yeah, no, it's, I mean, I, I definitely understand the struggle and I feel like as a manager though, I've had to, prioritize my artist's health above all else, and mental health is involved in that. It's not just your physical health. I also feel like the longer you're in this, the more you.
Understand what can be very helpful to your career. And sometimes you just have to say no and learn that's a powerful thing. And if you're doing your job, and making great music and saying yes to the right things and those opportunities will come again.
[00:14:24] Aaron:
absolutely, and that's something that I recognize with what you do specifically Blair. But then also what Brooklyn Basement records to me, is longevity and sustainability and let's build something that's going to last and can be a career and can be something that you do with your life rather than let's throw three singles on TikTok and then we'll move on.
really learning to understand like what works for you is something that it's a common topic on this show, but also something I've been thinking about a lot lately. The idea of the 80 20 principle, do you know about that? 80% of results come from 20% of your effort.
[00:14:56] Blair: Oh
[00:14:57] Aaron: it's like really prioritizing and noting like what really works and like prioritizing that 20% of things that you do that's gonna move the marker 80%. And then, the other stuff can be deprioritized cuz it only moves the marker a little bit.
[00:15:10] Ron: I have come to feel like pressed, Mostly if you like, believe that it's gonna move your career forward in a meaningful way. You have to get to some, like a kind of a critical mass of so much press all at once. It's like a perfect storm situation. And otherwise you're doing press cuz you wanna do press it's not to advance your career in any meaningful way.
I often reference the Jason Isabel Southeastern album cycle. That is an example of a situation where he reached a critical mass of this laudatory press where he was everywhere and it just lifted him Right? up into the, general consciousness
and that is not the norm.
And so I just think you get conditioned to think like, oh, well sh if I say say no to the whatever the Dallas Morning show, what does it say to my publicist? What does it say to. Whoever, but realistically, it's like, if you want to do that, if you feel like it, gives you some satisfaction, then you do it.
But it's not to advance your career probably.
most of them are, things not a lot of people are watching, not a lot of people are listening. even a giant interview. It's like, how much does this one thing mean? So I just think it's about picking and choosing what feels, significant enough to like, if you're gonna make yourself uncomfortable and make sure it feels like it's
[00:16:22] Blair and Ron: yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:16:23] Ron: Make yourself, like I did a regional morning show when I had pneumonia once, and then I was like, this is my last day.
This is my very last day doing this ever again.
[00:16:31] Aaron: I'm wondering when you guys to know whether it's you Ron, or Blair, when you're saying no for other artists, is it just a flat no. Or do you do a we can't do this, but we could do this kind of thing?
[00:16:43] Blair: it depends on the situation, but often it's, a really gracious, no thank you so much for thinking of so and so, unfortunately they can't do it. Sometimes I don't even give a reason why
sometimes, unfortunately, this time it won't work out. Please keep them in mind for the next opportunity and usually people get it,
I've rarely had somebody come back and be like that's ridiculous, and the opportunity comes back,
So I just think you have to stop being so precious with no, it's powerful, and it does hold weight.
But I think, we always get into the cycle of what other people are gonna think of you, and really they don't think about you that much at all,
you know? No, they're
[00:17:19] Michaela: lesson.
[00:17:20] Blair: somebody else. And then keep you in mind and you know, it's fine.
[00:17:24] Aaron: Yeah. One thing that I think about a lot is from our end, from the artist's management end, we have so many asks, you know, you have to ask for this, ask for this. And so we get rejected so often that for me, I find it hard to say no, because I know the pain of getting rejected all the time.
I'm like, I don't wanna add to that. I can, I, I can just say, yes, I can accommodate this. And I'm like, no I can't. That's just, I'm running myself ragged.
[00:17:46] Ron: one of our artists, a person who I, produced two of his records. His name is JM Clifford. And, we have had this discussion a bunch recently. He was worried about his social media posts. He was like, man, I just worry that, you know, I'm posting about the same things.
He's a public school teacher, teaches music in a public school. So he's always posting about that, running him and his wife singing together. Cuz his wife is also a musician and him playing alone. And he's like, I just keep posting these same things over and over. I just worry that people are gonna get bored.
I'm like, no one's thinking about this.
Just, put whatever you wanna make. Put it out there. Share it with people. no one else is thinking, man, three weeks ago I think he also posted a
[00:18:21] Blair and Ron: Yeah.
[00:18:23] Michaela: Also, they might not even see it we just saw Robbie Heck, who's a good friend of all of ours on Saturday, and we just got home from Europe, and I was posting incessantly about being in Europe, and Robbie was like, how have you been? I said, oh, we just got back.
And he was like, oh, from where? And I was like, oh, you haven't seen it on my Instagram?
Even when we follow each other, we don't see everything. But yeah. I think a big lesson that we talk about all the time is that we all think that people think of us in positives or negatives way more than anybody actually does.
[00:18:54] Aaron: Yeah. And I think, that being seen thing, can it also translate into the label side and the promotion side?
I see people not wanting to bother people by incessantly posting about their song. And it's like, people probably didn't see it. you spent how long writing this, you spent, how long recording this. How much money recording this and then, getting it pressed, publicists, all of that.
It's, a huge commitment. And you're gonna make one post and be like, here you go. It's available today. Go and listen. And then you know, you're down, that nobody's responding. probably 10% of the people that follow you saw that. Or
[00:19:27] Michaela: how many times have you gone on tour and promoted the shit out of a tour and then a fan writes and is like, when are you coming to New York?
And you're like, I literally was just there. Mm-hmm. Last
[00:19:36] Ron: was, I was once in my bunk, this is not a joke, this seems like a bit, but I swear it's true. I was in my bunk on the bus pulling out of Chicago and somebody tweeted at me, how come you never come to Chicago? When are you gonna come to Chicago? And I was like, I am literally driving outta Chicago at this very moment.
And I put up 100 posts about coming here. and at least not that person's fault. They were like, Genuinely excited about seeing me,
and they just didn't get the information. And it's disseminating information, I think is the hardest part of the gig at this point. It's of course you do a bunch of work to become a professional musician or to become a, an executive in the music industry, and we have to constantly figure out some new way to share information.
I have a, guy who was opening for me on this tour, my friend Caleb Hearn came out and he was the first of three on this tour, his first kind of big tour, and he's got an enormous following on TikTok. And he was talking about the challenges as they amend their algorithm, he has to find a new way to reach people where just a handful of months before within the same platform, he could do X and it worked well.
Now he has to figure out the new thing. And so it's even for people who have built enormous audiences within these platforms, it's constantly evolving. That's how the digital landscape. Yeah. works. And that's why you can't bank on
specific social media platform and put all of your e eggs into that.
Shawn Mendes got popular on Vine. Vine doesn't exist. I got popular
on my space. That's not there.
So you can't like be the mayor of some one social media platform or, neglect some of them and
[00:21:07] Michaela: So you have to do all of them
[00:21:10] Aaron: well.
[00:21:12] Blair: do all the things which
is so hard have to do as
a relative.
[00:21:16] Aaron: Yeah. So obviously you've built a sustainable career. You are on a bus all over the world now. Hey, so far, and you started out MySpace, it's not there. What have you guys found that worked to keep that going? keep the wind and the sails? Like how did you navigate that?
[00:21:31] Blair: I feel like this is an answer that most people don't. Want because they want there to be something like exact. But it, is the direct relationship with fans that, I think has sustained it. And it's not like you have a massive social media following or anything, but, we've grown his mailing list.
We've been really intentional about like maintaining these areas where the fans can communicate together,
And build their own fandom. And, being available, not available all the time, 24 7 and exposing so much of our lives, but, really facilitating an area where they can thrive and support and feel like they're a part of
[00:22:12] Ron: it. Yeah.
As an example of this, so we have a group chat. my fans call themselves the sweatpants people, when I was playing these like unplugged shows in the house at the height of the pandemic, I called them live and in sweatpants because I was, you know, in sweats and pajamas drinking red wine, singing songs in the house.
You know, it's just like me in my, living room They came to start calling themselves sweatpants people. we have a group chat on Instagram that they're in. And so one of the people in this group chat, her name is Dottie, Dottie is a friend of my dad's also. So this is a kind of a weird her, her involvement in this is kind of a funny thing, but she is a grown up woman, her and her husband were having trouble finding a parking space at the show in New York.
And the whole group chat, they went nuts trying to find them with parking
[00:22:56] Blair: space. Yeah.
Like people not in New York. Yeah. They were like googling places to
park and apps, reservations and stuff like that. So it's been really cool to see. But I mean that in of, in and of itself can be a challenge, figuring out how to keep these fans excited all the
time.
And so the hard part about being an independent musician, as you guys know, is that it is always changing and You can't really get comfortable anywhere. Even if you've built something that
feels sustainable, it always feels like tomorrow it could all just evaporate.
[00:23:26] Ron: I always say,
people are like, what does it feel like?
you made it. What does it feel like to have made it? I'm like no. We're making it every day.
each day. It's a process. each album cycle, what has changed, what's gonna work now. And I feel like, we swing and miss more often than we connect.
And so you have to be prepared for that. I think, I mean, another thing that for me is, an important part of this is like, I have tried to align, The work that I do and what I wanna make and my professional goals. And try to keep in mind it's like, you wanna make some kind of like really far out esoteric thing, you should consider what your commercial goals are as well, and mentally align those things.
Because if you wanna do something that isn't especially mainstream, well then you can't expect to become Ed Sheeran or Beyonce. That's probably not realistic. And for every person that does makes some, genre bending thing that impacts culture and is a giant commercial success.
There's a, 10 million records that are far out that don't do that.
So aligning those things. It makes it a little easier to sleep at night. If you're like okay, I'm not trying to play in a football stadium. I'm not making stuff or promoting it in a way that is attempting to put me there.
So me not playing in a football stadium is not a failing of
mine because I'm not doing the stuff to try to accomplish that.
[00:24:50] Aaron: how do you check in with where you're at? cuz I like that point of view. A lot of people are like, oh, well I need to change my art to meet this commercial success. And what I hear you saying is no, change your, metric of what commercial success is for the art that you want to make, So how do you, like, check in? Do you check in with other people in your scene that are making the same thing? how do you not compare to like, Well, I'm not selling up the Ryman, but you know, you're playing complete Alice Coltrain outer space free jazz, you sold 50 tickets in Nashville, which is insane, you know? so how do you do that?
[00:25:22] Blair: I'm a big fan of goal setting in general, and if you don't know, what a good goal is, try to find friend or Somebody in the same space that can help you figure out what's an appropriate thing to shoot for make it fairly tangible. but I also, I.
we don't really love to compare against exact artists. It just gets too messy and there's a reason why this worked or ours didn't work, or something like that. And it just gets too complicated. And the more that you can shed actual comparisons to other artists, the better off you will feel and the better off your project can go.
Because that can be a really murky place to start to live and,
know.
[00:26:01] Michaela: often do you guys check in with each other on this
[00:26:04] Blair: Every day. Yeah. talk about it every day, all day. We actually try to set times when we're like, I can't, we were recently in New York On a walk and we started talking about something and it was late and I was like, I cannot talk about this right now. It is our life and I love it. But there have to be some boundaries to
[00:26:23] Ron: it. And I also, for me, one really important thing I guess, is we live at the intersection here of art and commerce. That's all of us that are trying to make a living with music we're right there at the intersection of art and commerce.
And I know that I can control my art. that's what I've really spent my life focusing on is like learning how to create art and to continue to, push myself and to try to improve as a, creative person. And so that's a place where, I get a lot of the satisfaction and value from, and we're working on the promotional stuff that is our job.
We work in the music business and so I do feel the weight of the success. When it works, it feels good, but I try to focus more on the fact that like I want to create art that I believe in and that it means something to me and it feels like the very best I can do, and I wanna feel like I'm improving.
And when I'm doing that, I feel successful even when. The commercial things aren't going exactly as I would hope. I mean, Cuz as a career artist, there's ups, there's downs, there's times we were like, wow, this is really happening. And there's times we were like, am I going to get a truck driver's license?
Like,
[00:27:37] Blair and Ron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:38] Ron: happening to us? I think that, sometimes all of that happens in the same day.
it's humbling and it's exhausting. And I think that when you enter the music business as kids, when you wanna be a musician, you don't think about the fact that you're going into business and that essentially every musician is an entrepreneur.
That's not a thing that I was considering when I was, playing my Les Paul through my little Marshall Practice Amp in my room. Yeah, like
I wasn't like, how are we gonna sell X amount of widgets? So we stay in business and I try to like, keep that kid in mind who would be so stoked that I'm here playing music and am I living that kid's dream?
Not really no, like I didn't accomplish all the things that kid imagined, but it's pretty cool. that kid would be impressed. It wouldn't be everything that the kid wanted, but the kid would be mostly stoked. And I feel like sometimes it's good to check in with that kid and remember I was just a kid playing guitar in my room and so
trying to balance that.
Like, I love the art and I'm proud of it. cuz you can't control the commerce part. You can do your best. We work hard at it every day and not just the two of us. We have a. staff of other adults that this is their job mm-hmm. That work for us and with us.
But you can't focus on the losses because over the arc of the lifetime of a career, it'll make you lose your mind.
[00:28:48] Michaela: I feel like it's easy to start feeling jaded and bitter. when I catch myself feeling those, shameful, embarrassing feelings of how come I haven't gotten something that I feel like I deserve?
how many millions of other people also deserve that thing that like didn't get?
And I think the culture that a lot of us, especially millennials and older millennials grew up with of Dream big and you're special and get what you want, and what do you wanna be when you grow up? It all fed this idea of career aspirations and goals being oh, if you're a talented musician, then you wanna be a famous star and you wanna play these places.
And I think a lot of these conversations, and what I'm starting to understand more as I get older is how much of those things were deeply what I want? And how much was it just like a translation that I learned of, oh, if I sing and play songs, then automatically I should want this thing. And then I feel bummed when I don't get it.
And I'm like did I really want it?
[00:29:50] Blair: Unraveling. I feel like, some point in your life it might happen different times, but I feel like we've definitely gone through that where we have to say what is it that we actually want, out of this business. you know, Cuz our label and artist services business has grown and sometimes we have to check in and say, what about this all this extra work is fulfilling to us?
Or can we figure out ways to work in a different way to, actually make us happier? Because at the end of the day, that's really what we want is just to enjoy our lives and. Not be so stressed all the time.
And so there's just no point. And we both over the course of the past few years, have been up and down, luckily not down at the same time.
I don't know what
would happen then. And it's terrifying. But in both of those times on the way back up, you're just, figuring out what your actual priorities are. And it's really distilling them down into the simplest things at the end of the day. What makes you happy in that moment?
[00:30:51] Ron and Blair Video: I
[00:30:52] Ron: think a lot about, you talked about deserving what do I deserve? And it's like making art that you believe in, and even making commercial art that you think is something that a lot of people can like.
Nobody deserves anything. And I try to remind myself that it's like there's nothing inherent in me making this thing that makes me deserve
something. You know? It's not like, oh, if you do this, then you should get that.
You must get that.
I used to get caught up in that, the idea that, oh, like I deserve this opportunity. It's like, well do you, I have to keep reminding myself
[00:31:20] Michaela: I know, I think deserve is a really challenging word because I called them shameful, embarrassing feelings we're all human and we all have those feelings, but even when I've heard people say it about like, something great happens for somebody.
Someone gets on late night TV or whatever, and when I've heard people be like, nobody deserves it more than them, I'm like really we all deserve to feel fulfilled and have, needs met and happiness, but like, what is the measuring of who deserves what?
So putting on other people as well as ourselves has always felt like an unhelpful vocabulary term that shouldn't really be used.
Can you guys talk about how the label. Came to be how you guys decided to create that and expand beyond Ron's career and include others.
[00:32:06] Blair: sure. We were in Brooklyn at the time, so our label is called Brooklyn Basement Records, and I worked out of a basement, so we. I had the most original idea and named it Brooklyn Basement Records. But honestly, like we'd been through a few of Ron's album campaigns and people started saying what you guys put together is better than this major label, And so not that I felt like what I do could exactly compete, but I was like, if I am putting together all these pieces on my own and have Ron to help, maybe we could help some other artists. And At that point I feel like we were independent to a fault. You know, like, we almost didn't wanna accept help from anybody, but we figured out a way to kind of build what we felt like worked within our framework of our, careers.
And, that was really why it we just felt like we could help other people. I was interested in expanding what I did a little bit. And that was it for me. And Blair had
[00:33:03] Ron: already
was already working with some other people in management and I was already starting to write and produce for some people.
And we were encountering situations where for her, it's like when you hire a manager, The bulk of what you need from a manager is their expertise. they have a variety of skill sets depending on the manager, at the end of the day, the bulk of it is you want somebody whose expertise you value.
And we were finding that people weren't always being good listeners. And for me, we were finding that people were running into, holdups in the release of these recordings. the management would fall apart. wouldn't get the deal they wanted. The label would say no, whatever.
So we realized that we could put together our skillsets. so in the beginning that was the idea is like it was a synthesis of all the things that the two of us were doing. so the first two artists that we were working with, I was writing or co-writing all the songs, producing the recordings.
And Blair was managing them and we were releasing the music through our label. But over time, I would say the scope of our business has really evolved. Like now for Brooklyn Basement, it's a large umbrella. And so there's the management arm. So Blair manages Emily, Scott Robinson, and Miko Marks and me.
And we have the record label arm, which is at this point, the smallest part of our business we release mostly my music. And we have a few other titles. And then we have the marketing partnerships, which are really the centerpiece of our business at this point that help people to release their music without us, them a conventional record deal and signing them.
It's like more like hiring a service. And then we also have in-house. Pr that is another arm. So I think that's all the things we
[00:34:29] Blair: do, right? Yeah. For now um, you know, it's evolved, but that's how the music industry is. And we've evolved with it and all, around what works for us, what works for the artists that we're working with.
We started the whole artist services, marketing partnerships because of Emily, who I now manage. But we met her at Americana Fest a few years ago and just loved her songs, loved her voice, and felt really connected to her. But she wasn't looking for a label at the time. We weren't, sure how we could fit in, but we just, figured out something that could work.
And we were just flexible. And that's how it all
[00:35:05] Ron: started. like I said, I feel like organic is overused, but each of these things has been like a very organic thing. I had a publicist for many years. where we hired out and we spent a fortune and we were working with, giant PR firms.
The big heavy hitters worked. I've worked with a variety of them over the years. And in the end one of the people who was working with us, she began with us when she was 22 maybe, and it was like her second job her major in college was pr. Mm-hmm. You know, She was very interested in doing it.
So gradually over the years, she learned and became a publicist. And that's how we began to have an in-house publicist we'd just been using publicists often to not the greatest of effect. and I think sometimes people are unrealistic about what a publicist does, I had a handful of I just take your money kind of publicist like, don't send reports and can't contact them and stuff like that.
So for us, that's an example of a place where like our business evolved. Based on a need. Yeah. We saw a gap and we saw something that we could do, and then we could provide people with that service where we knew that it would be done with integrity. And that was a really, that's an important thing to us.
Like we only say we're going to do what we're actually going to do. We don't promise anything that we're not gonna do. And we're always very clear with people about what is possible. Yeah. And what is probable.
[00:36:22] Blair: I can be nothing but transparent
sometimes to a fault, but there's just too many people in the music industry that will just take your money.
And so we've tried to create something that felt a little safer for artists that want to stay independent or are on the way up, trying to figure out their place in the music industry. Because we've been there and we've done it, we've, worked with people that were terrible. We've worked people that didn't give great results, or great communication.
And so we've tried to fix that for what we do. But, you just gotta find the right fit
[00:36:52] Aaron: It sounds like you guys have really found your way by staying lean and staying agile.
[00:36:57] Blair: yeah. Lean, agile, and, we're not like
super spontaneous Exactly, but if we thought about something for long enough, we're like, let's just do it. you say you want something, you just have to do it at the end of the day, and thinking about it and talking about it is great.
But eventually, if you wanna have an artist career, start putting it together,
you know,
[00:37:18] Michaela: that mm-hmm. yeah, that's what I think is incredible about you guys. And similar to BJ from American Aquarium, this industry, a lot of people can have dreams of wanting to be a musician and then try to get access and get the people and not. Get the agent, get the label, whatever, and then take that as a sign of, okay, well I guess it's just not meant for me.
And instead to have the self-belief and the work ethic of saying, then I'm gonna do it myself. I can't find the right person already established to do these things with me, for me, whatever. Then I'm gonna do it. That's incredible. And then you guys took it a step further and said, we also want to extend this to other people, which is really community building and a really beautiful endeavor to be coming from like an artist centric place and create space within an industry that can be really challenging and really, harmful.
[00:38:14] Blair: Oh, well that's really nice of
[00:38:15] Ron: you to say. Oh, shucks. Yeah. talking about that part of our careers, certainly I didn't have an agent in America for a long time, while I was on the road and selling tickets and people were paying attention, so finally, In 2013, I had a friend book me a show in New York and I was like, all right, this year we toured in Europe and then we came home and we focused on this one thing.
And I played one show in New York, played at Irving Plaza, and we sold it out I don't know, a month and a half or two months in advance. And then I was able to write to all the agencies and be like, Hey, so I sold 1100 tickets in New York, and I don't have an American agent. I'm doing all this stuff in Europe.
I had an agent there already. maybe now you want to take a meeting with me.
that was one of those things though, where like, I had been on the road in America relentlessly for multiple years, doing hundreds and hundreds of shows, booking to myself, self booking, and then, just gradually building and something started to happen, but like, it wasn't happening all at once.
It
was a gradual grind to build to that place. And then we took sort of a calculated risk by taking that one very large show. and it worked, but it was one of those things where no one wanted to help us for years. it just eventually got to the point where it felt undeniable to enough people that they had no choice.
the music industry never has chosen me. I never get chosen for anything at all. I can only get what I can sneak in and steal and run away with. And
[00:39:36] Blair and Ron: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:37] Ron: there hasn't been like the year of me
[00:39:39] Aaron: Yeah. have you guys translated that approach to other things, whether it's in your career, Ron, or with other artists that you work with, big calculated risks that might fall flat on their face or might have a big reward? has that been something that's continued?
[00:39:51] Ron: The one that I think. Was the most pronounced, and this has more to do with her than us certainly, but the subject matter of the first Emily Scott Robinson Single that we promoted, she has a song called The Dress and it is about her own experience with sexual assault.
And it is very powerful. And the first time that I heard it, I was like, man, this is wild. Because she told the story, then she sang the song and I was like, man, it is hard to write a good song and it's hard to write a topical song. And she wrote a good, like an actual good song that feels engaging all by itself and then is this wildly engaging topical thing as well.
And so we suggested to her that perhaps she could release that as the first single and that it would speak to people who had these experiences and would be something to connect her to a community of folks. And it worked she was very brave and very open.
And, y'all know her. She's been on here. She's a light and a force of nature. And so that was an example of something I feel like we could have picked better with time or something that was a sweet, love song and instead, we Yeah.
Suggested that and she decided to do it and it worked.
[00:40:57] Blair: It was good. Yeah. And then with Miko Marks, so she is not new at all, actually, country artist and country Americana. And so much of her career and how she gets fans is through her live performance. And so we leaned really hard on getting her a ton of shows almost right out the gate and have started building her touring career.
Pretty relentlessly. And you know, it's hard and I understand that it is, but she's really trusted us in these decisions. And she just did her first headlining tour and it was great. They're smaller rooms, but she was really scared to sell tickets on her own.
And it worked, a lot of them were sold out or at capacity. But, that's something that she's making $0 doing it. There is no money right now in touring especially at the stage that she's at. But, slowly it's building into festivals and she has an agent that is like really working her butt off for her and just finding her any and everything.
And sometimes we have to, make sure it actually works logistically, which is a funny thing that you have to do with agents. But um, that was a risk, I feel like that is starting to work and pay off,
[00:42:07] Aaron: You guys said earlier in the conversation that you, take more swings than you get hits. Are there any of these big efforts that have just completely failed?
[00:42:16] Blair: too. Oh yeah. Like I can think of so many. I don't know. We've
[00:42:20] Aaron: I mean, I'm happy for y'all on those successes. That's amazing, but
[00:42:23] Ron: We've spent so much money on music videos, which they're worthless pretty much. 12 people
[00:42:27] Blair: saw,
I dunno. Yeah. Like we were like, this is the one, this is gonna get picked up everywhere.
It's gonna go viral and then it's performs the worst at all.
[00:42:34] Ron: Yeah.
Any of those. I also, this wasn't our idea, I will say, but 2016 I went on tour and we murdered everywhere we went, we sold out. It was nuts. And we did a lot of kind of 500 to 700 cap rooms.
We did everything Plaza again in New York on that tour and sold that out, which was 1100. But mostly it was like 500, 700 all sold out all over the country. But it was like a very calculated, we only did 20 or so shows and we went out and did major markets and murdered every night. So the next tour, the idea that was pitched to us was play much bigger rooms and play more than twice as many.
And we went out and got. Killed,
just brutalized every single night. Just horrible, And it like, altered the trajectory of my touring career. Absolutely. A change of perception of me in the eyes of the promoters all over the country. Because it was a terrible choice.
And it's like, when you're in charge, it doesn't matter whose idea it was. it's,
Yeah,
we did it's, it's our, it's like, so that was an example of something that if we hadn't been very thoughtful about what we did next, could have ended my touring career potentially, I think a lot of people have that happen to them where they make a few wrong choices and then all of a sudden they're like, no promoters want me.
What happened? we had to rebuild after that and we were very conscientious about it. So that's an example of a time where we made a we jumped off the ship and it was we
were too far.
[00:43:52] Blair: Try stuff though, and that's the beauty of being an independent artist.
[00:43:56] Aaron: Yeah. So how did that tour affect you guys? both Ron as an artist how did that feel in relation to your art, but then also Blair heading the business? How'd that affect you guys?
That's a really
[00:44:06] Michaela: good
[00:44:07] Blair and Ron: question.
[00:44:09] Aaron: That's the first time she's ever said a question of mine was really great. I'm just saying I'm honored. No, because
[00:44:15] Michaela: I just wanna jump in because I feel like this is the kind of stuff that for whatever reason I love, I wanna hear about the hard stuff, which Erin's always like, you are sadistic, Mikayla, you just love the dark sadness.
But it's because I think I like then the rise, but I'm not that interested in the big successful moments. I wanna know the hard shit that people overcome. And I feel like there is something about going out night after night and standing on stage and looking out on stage having to put on a show and the ticket sales aren't where you want them to be.
People are disappointed and you still have to Perform for the people that are there and doing that where it's a whole tour it takes a special human being to keep going through that stuff. And I think, wanting to hear what that did to you guys and if you were just okay, that was a mess up and let's just keep going, or what you did to grapple with that, how that impacted you.
So I'm just expanding on Erin's. Good question.
[00:45:15] Ron: I try to intellectualize this a lot because the emotional part when you're out there and you're getting your butt kicked every night is hard. so I think a lot of people know my grandfather was a professional gambler, but before he made his living exclusively gambling, he was a plumber for the city of Newark in New Jersey.
And when I was a kid, it didn't matter if it was 15 degrees below zero, he got up, he got dressed in the dark and he went out to work. we broke his leg, know, he, put on an extra pair of socks and he went to work. it. So I try to keep that kind of stuff in mind. It's this is my job, it's like pretty easy in comparison to a lot of other jobs.
There's a lot of other people doing. Much worse things, but suffering is relative.
You know? It's like you can only experience what you're experiencing. And so on This tour, I was miserable every single day. It was emotionally devastating. It's really hard to go out because I knew that it was just a miscalculation.
Like it wasn't that people weren't interested in me, it was that like we took a show in Sacramento in a room that was bigger than the last room I had played in San Francisco. And then we also played a room that was more than twice as big as the last show that I put in San Francisco.
So
now I've gotta sell whatever, 2000 tickets in a market where I had previously sold 500 tickets. so it was devastating. Every day was so hard and I felt brutalized. But each night you get on stage and you put on the show Joe DiMaggio used to say, cuz he would like run fast.
even when he hit a ground ball to the shortstop and was definitely gonna get out, people would ask him, why do you always do that Joe? Why you, running so fast? And he's like, cuz some kid sitting in the stands has never seen Joe DiMaggio before. And I owe it to that kid to do my best.
And I feel that way for you it's like night 40 of a miserable tour where you feel like you're drowning. But for some people, they scrape the money together to get a babysitter and they got off
work and it's that's their night out. So you better show up and do your damn job.
Like on your visa when you're traveling internationally, it says entertainer on it. you're there to entertain, a clown. Show up, be a clown. Understand your value to people is that you're there to entertain them. whether you are a classical musician or you're playing.
Old time music or pop artist, an Americana artist, country, whatever. You're a clown. you're there to entertain people. It doesn't matter if it's very serious art or not. The point of it is that people are going out to be entertained. So I that's, I try to intellectualize that part, keep that in mind, show up and do my job.
But that whole tour, I was so sad.
All the days were miserable. I just felt like I was drowning
[00:47:42] Blair: And for me I mean, it was tough emotionally too, and I'm not one of those managers that stands in the back with their arms crossed, leaning against the wall. Having drinks with industry people and talking.
I'm like emotionally so invested in all of my artists that I'm like, wandering around the room, like nervous and weird and nobody wants to talk to me because I look like a crazy person. always when there's a room that doesn't feel quite as full or, it's just, not a good feeling for them.
I internalize that as well. But whenever we have these shows, I do, I look for the one group of people, or like the fans like right up front, they are so excited and they're singing and they don't notice half the time, they're just, they're having a night out and, they'll leave and say it was the best show they'd ever seen.
so it's only us that feel this like disgustingness on the inside. if you, can shove it aside and put on a good show, which you always do. And I'm lucky to have all of my artists Understand that.
and that's so important. But also, We've come to this recently, I feel like that nothing is permanent. Nothing. And so like when you have this understanding, whether it's good or bad, it will change in some capacity. And so that moment of being like very bad, Yeah.
we'll have to figure it out, but we can, and maybe the future will look different, than we thought.
Maybe touring does change a little bit, but something else will come in to take its place. So I don't know if I was thinking all those exact things at that moment, but, we did figure out a way around it. We changed things up but it was, tough, you go from seeing these rooms completely sold out and me trying to find the best angle to take the photo to get everyone in the crowd to going to like the one spot in the venue where it looks like it's full.
we're all doing smoke and mirrors at some point,
[00:49:31] Michaela: and it's also maybe you had 500 people there and if you had played a smaller room, it would've been sold out, but because it was a bigger room, it feels like a failure. So like the expectation and like also our obsession on numbers in this business of what numbers then we think mean, which also is always within the context.
It's challenging, but I think what you said that nothing is permanent is a really good thing to keep. And I think As artists, building your lifelong career, remembering that always nothing's permanent. The highs are not permanent. The big year of being the most celebrated press hungry artist, whatever press celebrated, that's not permanent.
And also the playing empty rooms, hopefully not permanent
[00:50:15] Aaron: either. Yeah, it's a famous, I'm gonna totally botch all of the characters in this, but a famous Buddhist story of a man walks up to, Buddha and he's like, I'm looking for one sentence that will make me happy when I'm sad and make me sad when I'm happy.
And the Buddhist sat there and meditated and he came back and he's like, this too shall pass.
And it's the more you think of it, it's like, wow. If you're happy and you think that, you're like, oh, you're instantly sad. Cause you're like, this isn't gonna last. But then if you're sad and you're like, this dude shall pass, you're like, okay, cool.
There's some hope there.
[00:50:45] Blair: It's helped me as a mother. It's helped me in my career. Anytime, our daughter would, be having a crazy freak out. It's like this phase will pass, but also that really cute phase where she would say good morning is gone too.
You know, and like all those everything changes, but something else comes in,
[00:51:03] Blair and Ron: Oh,
[00:51:03] Michaela: that just broke my heart. Cuz right now Geor, Georgia says, mama morning. Mama morning. And that's not gonna be for.
[00:51:11] Ron: That, and I try to keep all of this in mind. Especially with living with a child, cuz they change so quickly, One day she's gonna be this complete person that it'll be really fun to have a glass of wine with her. and that's gonna be cool too. I don't ever want her to leave my house.
Um, and so, that part already it feels very emotionally difficult to even consider. But time's gonna move, things are gonna change you hope that the next thing is, also good, but understanding that, I don't have to make a living at this for a hundred years. We don't have to figure out how to make this career last for 60 years or something. I'm gonna be 40 years old next month. Really? It's 20 some odd, you know, right around that. Like, after that I've worked a lifetime.
thinking about it like it doesn't have to go forever. It just has to go as long as we need it to go. And if it stops working, we've always figured it out.
In the past yeah, I haven't had a, straight job in 15 plus years. even those I, never really, held one of those very long.
[00:52:13] Blair and Ron: Erin
[00:52:13] Michaela: never
[00:52:14] Aaron: has. I worked in a coffee shop. Okay. I mean, I've never, no, I've never had one for more than like two months.
[00:52:18] Ron: Yeah. That's awesome.
[00:52:19] Aaron: I mean, I've never been rich either, so you know,
[00:52:21] Ron: I had all of those survival jobs.
[00:52:23] Michaela: I would argue you have been very rich. Well, thanks.
[00:52:28] Aaron: Some people are so poor. All they have is money.
[00:52:30] Michaela: That's what Erin says all the
[00:52:32] Aaron and Michaela Video: time.
[00:52:33] Blair: Yeah.
But I do think all of this helps keep you present. Yeah. And, understanding that nothing is permanent. Yeah. Keeps you present in the good times and the bad to know that it'll go
away. Yeah.
I don't wanna know if we wanna get super deep, but I think about my own mortality all the time.
[00:52:46] Blair and Ron: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:47] Blair: It makes you happier. Like if you know one day it'll go away.
[00:52:50] Aaron: Yep. That's full on like Marcus Aurelius stoicism, right there.
[00:52:54] Blair: Yeah,
[00:52:55] Ron: that's it. Eventually our time will run out,
[00:52:57] Aaron: Yes. Yeah. That's a beautiful place to say that our time in this conversation is running out.
[00:53:02] Blair: wow.
[00:53:04] Michaela:
I feel like every time we come to the end of a conversation, because we're very conscious of time, I'm like, there's so many more things I wanna ask you guys.
So I feel like we're gonna have to have repeats. I also am scheming about wanting to do a series on money
[00:53:16] Blair: Hmm
[00:53:17] Michaela: Music. And I feel like you guys would be great, guests for that,
[00:53:20] Ron: We have lost a fortune in this game.
[00:53:22] Aaron: Yeah, we started a podcast, which is a huge money maker, I'll tell you.
[00:53:27] Ron: That's what they say.
[00:53:28] Michaela: Yeah. People are like, how much money do you guys make on that? Oh, we spend but it fills us in other ways,
[00:53:34] Blair: Exactly.
[00:53:34] Ron: Exactly. This basically feels like what we do when we have dinner together.
this is way more calm. Yeah. With less children. maybe instead of doing another episode of the podcast, we should just get a babysitter for our kids and go to dinner. Oh,
[00:53:48] Blair and Ron: Yeah. Deal.
[00:53:49] Michaela: We almost had a babysitter emergency for this morning, so thank God we found someone. But yeah, usually when the four of us hang out, we have two beautiful little girls
[00:53:58] Ron: Just trying to fall down the stairs together.
[00:54:00] Blair and Ron: Yeah.
[00:54:01] Aaron:
Thank you guys for carving
[00:54:02] Ron: for having us. We appreciate Y'all having this's. Really amazing for having us. So thank you. Big fans of the
[00:54:07] Blair: podcast, big fans. Can't
[00:54:08] Ron: believe I'm on. Long time listener. First time caller. Flattered. I'm honored
[00:54:12] Michaela: I, I wanna say two things that one, we do appreciate that because we get text messages from Ron with full analysis of episodes, which we really appreciate. And also, Ron, I wanna say you did such a great job today because when you and I texted about being on the podcast, I said I wanted both of you.
And you said, that's probably a really good idea because Blair has trained me to stop and listen.
[00:54:36] Blair: I, I was also impressed by the brevity of some answers.
[00:54:42] Blair and Ron: Beautiful job, Ron.
[00:54:44] Ron: doing my best. Thank
you. I'm glad everybody noticed. I did try very hard. Thank you,
[00:54:49] Michaela: Thank you guys both for being so honest and generous and uh, giving us your time.
[00:54:54] Ron: Thanks for having us. Thank you. Until we'll see you all soon. Talk to
you soon.
[00:54:57] Aaron: Bye. See you guys.