The Lone Bellow have released a 5 records on various imprints of Sony Records and Dualtone Records, hitting the Billboard 200 and getting nominated for Americana Awards, worked with producers such as Dave Cobb, and Aaron Dessner of The National, supported Kacey Musgraves and appeared on Letterman, Kimmel, Conan amongst others. We talk to them about healthy conflict in the group, and intentional communication to keep things progressing, betting on themselves and moving away from both outside producers and record labels, leading your team rather than waiting on them, ownership of your art and a whole lot more.
The Lone Bellow have released a 5 records on various imprints of Sony Records and Dualtone Records, hitting the Billboard 200 and getting nominated for Americana Awards, worked with producers such as Dave Cobb, and Aaron Dessner of The National, supported Kacey Musgraves and appeared on Letterman, Kimmel, Conan amongst others. We talk to them about healthy conflict in the group, and intentional communication to keep things progressing, betting on themselves and moving away from both outside producers and record labels, leading your team rather than waiting on them, ownership of your art and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and we are so happy to still be here. It's our second year in The Other 22 Hours and no sign of stopping. I'm really glad you're here with us.
[00:00:23] Aaron: A few quick asks before we jump into today's episode.
It takes a lot to produce even a small show like ours. We've boiled our simple asks down to three things being and share. So what that means is if you could really quick, just click subscribe or follow or whatever the word they use on your listening platform of choice.
That's just a really quick and easy way for people that are like browsing the show to know that it's worth 45 minutes of their time. At least once secondly would be share, which is to share your favorite episode or clip with somebody that doesn't know about our show yet. And we like to think that this show is from our community for our community.
And so what that means is. Chances are there's somebody in your circle that could really benefit from these conversations that doesn't know about it yet and the larger our community is, the more guests we can have and the more ideas we can share with you guys. So it creates this really cool feedback loop.
And lastly is if you know that you enjoy our show streaming podcasts pays absolutely 0. So we've started a Patrion and. There we offer the normal Patreon things, behind the scenes stuff, advanced notice of guests, so you can ask questions directly. we have conversations that are starting every week amongst creatives that subscribe to kind of go deeper into what we talk about on this show.
And we love that it's kind of like a living, breathing organism and constantly changing. So if that sounds intriguing to you, there is a link below in our show notes.
[00:01:45] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on with this podcast is that we are not music journalists. We are working musicians ourselves.
So we think of these less as interviews and more as conversations where. It's almost like we're sitting together at the dinner table having a really honest vulnerable conversation about the realities of building a lifelong career around your art.
[00:02:06] Aaron: Which is a crazy thing to do, as we all know. And that's because most of the things in this career are completely outside of our control, which we spend a good bit of time talking about with our guests today.
But with that, we've distilled Our showdown to a thesis statement of what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to ask that question of the lone bella.
[00:02:30] Michaela: The lone bello is a band based in nashville originally started out in new york city Made up of zach williams brian edwards Elmquist and Canine Pipkin, and they have been a band for over 10 years, which a band of any size is incredibly hard to sustain.
So it's quite an accomplishment. They put out several records produced by Dave Cobb and Aaron Dessner of The National, their most recent record being self produced for the first time.
[00:02:57] Aaron: Yeah, and we get to dive into that idea of betting on yourself, taking things into your own hand, a lot of talk and like relationships with your team and expectations being met, being not methow tension is the sign of health in a relationship and openness andconfidence in the strength of the relationship.
This is the first time that we've had a trio on the show of unrelated people. So getting to talk on the dynamics of that as Canine says, it's kind of like being in a marriage with people that you never fell in love with, which I really love. , there's some, stories of their times, missing train accidents with major label deals a label closing.
A month before they put out a record, some wild up and downs, whole lot of skinned knees along the way to arrive where they are, which is taking ownership of everything both their creativity and their personal lives and their career. And so with that, here's our conversation with the lone Bella.
[00:03:54] Zach: You remember when someone thought that my wife was a homeless person in that parking lot
she like gave her socks and it's just because my wife dresses like a homeless person.
[00:04:03] Kanene: A very chic,
incredibly chic, unhoused person.
[00:04:07] Zach: yeah. She had like these, number nine on. I don't know if
people know what they are. They're really expensive and she never wears socks with them. And this person that used to be homeless, came out and was like, I was where you were one day, my wife didn't have the heart to tell her that she had a home that she lived in, so she took the lady's socks.
[00:04:27] Michaela: With her expensive shoes.
[00:04:29] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:04:30] Michaela: Well, Thank you guys for doing this. we realize we've all never met, but we have a lot of mutual friends. So
[00:04:37] Aaron: we lived in Brooklyn for 12 years before we moved here.
[00:04:41] Zach: Oh, wow.
[00:04:41] Aaron: where are you guys at right now in your path and tour cycles and life?
[00:04:47] Zach: as friends. we have harvested all there is the harvest. And we're at home, like writing songs and making music And being with our families. And it's a nice place to be in. Cause yeah, when we came back from the pandemic, we were broke and it was time to go to work and nobody talked to the other musicians and said, should we stagger,
[00:05:05] Brian: We all went out and flooded a market that just couldn't handle it. And that's changed now. I mean, live music more alive than it's ever been. And I'm really excited to be a part of that. Cause we've always been a live band. It's been a staple of what we do. right now, I think at least speaking for me, it's been kind of like, sowing seeds and I'm sure there'll be a time to like go back out and harvest of those seeds. But we've got most of a record in the can. If not all of it we're still writing and we're not going to release the records for next year.
So if we write another song that feels like it should make the record, we'll record it. And it's a nice place to be. And we're not playing catch up now, which is a really, it took us 12 years to do that. So for me, it'sjust takes a little weight off my shoulders to know that we're looking at the horizon instead of like,catching up, you know what I mean?
So, I'm really proud is the first thing that I'd say to us. more excited about the future than I have been in a couple of record cycles. honestly I think we're starting on record label we're starting some things that we're really proud of that we're. Keep it to ourself until we get there.
But beginning next year, it's all starts rolling out and we just take it back a lot morestake in what we do we have a more fan centric. How do we take care of our fans? How do we love them? These people that have carried us, paid our bills for so long. if I was saying like a state of the union, that's what I would say, like we're at for me,
[00:06:33] Aaron: well obviously we never disagree or fight. I don't know,
[00:06:37] Kanene: I think some things this far down the road are, pretty seamless I think we're all of a pretty similar mind. And I think a lot more often now it's a matter of allowing everyone to kind of work in their strengths. I think too, because we're not really the kind of people that are happy ever doing the same thing twice.
Like we don't want to do the same set with two nights in a row. So there's Always an evolution just like within how we're operating. And so I think there's always discussion that's happening. I think there has to be a certain amount of tension just so you know everybody still cares because if it's just kind of like, yeah, whatever,
then it feels a little bit checked out. But I think on, on the important things, vision wise, I feel like we're all pretty much on the same page.
[00:07:21] Aaron: do you guys find that kind of opens up,adds some freedom in the creative process? You know where there is, An inspiration or an openness to bring ideas to the table. Bring your own voices. I know you guys all write independently and have your own things.
But then, when it comes down to writing, stuff for the band, does that work?
[00:07:40] Zach: the record we're doing now is probably my favorite there's been a thousand different versions of how we write songs together. The last one, we were together the whole time. So we wrote it in a church. We know most of it in the church, right down the road.
[00:07:52] Brian: This one, we went to Kentucky and went to a friend's firehouse we talked to the bass player and the drummer, and we asked them like, Will you sit and write these songs with us and we'll just split everything. We've never done that
[00:08:05] Michaela: Mm Does buy in from everybody that we're just gonna go and jam out like we're in a garage and like we were 16 and there was no Preconceived ideas about it only that we were gonna just go in and try our best to do what we do And that we wrote 11 songs in four days jamming out We had a ball.
[00:08:22] Brian: It made me love my band members even more. a couple weeks later, I was like, I think we have a record. And I, talked to everybody individually and everybody together and they agreed. And so we picked us with straggling songs that we liked along the way. And we went down to muscle shows and we spent another week and then we piece it together after that.
the older I get, the more I like to invite folks into the process. I really don't like doing anything alone. And I can get more done when I've got all my friends involved. And it is contention, and there's supposed to be contention in art. if you're not butting heads, it's not worth it.
Cause don't have your heart in the game.
me and Kanin butt heads all the time, you know, it's beautiful. and we talk about it and we hug after it. I think you gotta have a safe place to do that. honestly, we talk about our band and what we do.
That's what we do the best. Everything else is just an outflow of that. I, as my part playing this band want to protect the most, we talk about how we tour and how we make records and stuff like that. it's gotta be fun and it needs to make the most amount of money for the work we put into it.
Cause we're, grown, I feel like if we have the best experience for ourselves, then our fans will have the best experience. That's just how music works. And I've literally. Heard other people that I really look up to Rick Rubin all these people They say the same thing you have to do your four chords in the truth three chords in the truthAnd then hopefully it's worth listening to you know what I mean?
And that's the philosophy,
[00:09:45] Michaela: Yeah, I love that you brought up the tension and how it's a good sign to see
tension because it means that you all are showing up as your strongest selves and
[00:09:53] Kanene: Uh,
[00:09:55] Michaela: culture these days of like how tension or disagreement can be like, make it or break it. having examples of people talk about like, yeah, we disagree and that's okay. Like disagreements aren't bad. It's actually like a sign of, strength. And then how we handle those disagreements, especially in like a creative way is really beautiful that you might have. different opinions about how a song should go and feel really strongly about it and be able to move on in a good place together from there.
I it's a really beautiful example of not running away from discomfort and thinking that discomfort is inherently bad.
[00:10:33] Aaron: I can imagine that, being in a long running trio, essentially having three from people can lead to a lot of traffic jams or roadblocks or something like that.
For me it's, inspiring to hear that there's an openness like that and ability to be like, we're all humans and people and we have opinions and different tastes and that is our strength and how do we lean into that.
[00:10:54] Zach: Yeah, for sure.
[00:10:55] Brian: I don't think it works any other way. Honestly, it's making elevator music
[00:10:59] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:11:00] Aaron: for
[00:11:01] Brian: you know, opinion, but I think you have to lean in and it's a sign of being an adult to be able to like, and then bug afterwards. You know,I think our society has changed so much to where they try to take all the conflict out.
I don't think that's the way to do it. We definitely shouldn't be a holes or. Run people over but we shouldn't be
afraid to disagree with somebody. I think that's healthy
[00:11:22] Michaela: Yeah. It's so funny, though, because you say it's a
sign of being an adult, which I agree. It's like a maturity that you grow and learn, but at the same time, having a three year old, I'm like watching these toddlers like
just brutalize each other and then be fine. And I'm like, Oh, we could learn a lot from them.
They're
like, mad
[00:11:40] Kanene: I do get over things
a lot faster.
[00:11:42] Michaela: And then they're like,
so happy to be together. So it's a good lesson.
[00:11:46] Kanene: Yeah, I think if anything, if you're going to have a long relationship, especially like a band is such an interesting organism because it's your friends and you're working together. And it's like being in like amarriage with a bunch of people.
You never fell in love with, there's a reason that we all gravitated toward this is because when it's awesome, it is, so fun. You get to be with your friends and be in a community and create and do all that. You're not just like going to a job with a bunch of people you're not invested in.
It's like a very integrated something is bothering us we have to talk about it a lot earlier than we used to. Because I think we used to all just We would get mad, we would get upset, and then you would just sit on it moments when other things needed to be addressed, you know. if you want it to last, you gotta find a way to work through things, work through the hurt, and not resent each other because people can see that on stage. I don't know if you've ever seen a band where you're like, These people are fighting.
[00:12:47] Brian: That's the conflict I've been looking for
right there.
[00:13:01] Michaela: little bit about how, do you guys have to separate times of, okay, we need to have like a business meeting and talk about our plans and schedules and how has that also evolved If I'm correct, Zach, were you the only one that had children when the band started?
And then as families have grown, how have you guys kind of incorporated, addressing everybody's personal schedules how those conversations go?
[00:13:27] Zach: think that we need to be better at it, but basically To protect like normal hang time I think that it's a good idea to have the Businessy meetings so that the businessy crap doesn't just fall into Any given moment we're going to have this serious conversation about that we want to just be able to be you know, especially when you're together so much I think that it's really important to set aside and have those business meetings so that you're not just like quietly wondering You Okay, on this four hour drive, is someone gonna bring up something really intense?
[00:14:03] Aaron: Yeah. I agree though. I think it's super important to Just be intentional about that with the business, because, when it's your livelihood and when it's a livelihood that is also dependent on other people that are your close friends, it's really easy for emotion to creep in there.
And business is not necessarily a place for emotion. you know, it can be numbers. It can be math. It can be like schedules. It can be very tangible, cut and dry things. And so if you're able to. Just carve out a time
for that then, the personal time the creative time, whatever it is has The untethered freedom to be that in my experience.
It kind of seems like both things can kind of thrive
[00:14:38] Brian: for sure. I
[00:14:39] Kanene: Right.
[00:14:39] Brian: it's also like having the team that you trust around is a big piece. I feel like a lot of times, especially in the beginning, you get a manager with a big name and you're like, he's going to do everything. And then like five years down the road, you realize, oh, it's all on me still really, or us.
We have to carry the load it's our ideas. but then you realize Oh, so we want somebody that we really want to like collaborate with. And I feel like that's something that's changed lately too, that I'm really happy about, cause you got people that's hungry and wanting to come up with fresh ideas and new ways of doing this stuff.
And, it's really good to have those kinds of people around too, and they're also like.
Wondering I don't know about this. What do you think? I'm in a silo and they can like, look at it with a different lens than you. it's cool to have people that you trust around.
[00:15:24] Aaron: For sure those decisions,
Is there generally a consensus there Or is there a lot of negotiating that needs to happen amongst the three of you guys?
[00:15:32] Zach: It's happened a few times. It's been a little different every time. it usually takes a couple months to really walk through and figure out if it's the best decision or not. I will say I've gotten better at firing people over the years. First couple of times it was really, really uncomfortable. they tried to put on like a father figure hat and I didn't know what to do with that. And, it was like, you owe everything to me. What are you doing? You're hurting me. And after doing it a couple of times and like seeing that was like a move. way better, especially this last time to just cut it off. Just be like nope We're adults. You haven't done a good job. Have a good life. Bye kind of thing, but yeah in the band, These decisions are just such big decisions and we have so much tied to it for instance like when we changed lawyers You It was really hard.
We were going from a lawyer that took five percent of everything we made, to a lawyer that was just paid hourly. And, the guy that we were leaving was a sweet guy, but he naturally took it really personal. it's just not fair. It's not fair to do that in the professional realm.
[00:16:44] Michaela: hmm.
[00:16:46] Zach: side of music know that an artist probably has some people pleasing issues and that's one of the reasons why they maybe subconsciously became an artist and they try to take advantage of that in the firing conversation So it has been nice to just learn those little things and also to go have the conversation and then have your friends slash band mates to like sit back in a green room with and Be like, oh my god, this is how it went And then we all process it together kind of thing if I just had to do it on my own, I would replay every part of that convo for weeks until I like went crazy.
But to be able to like go back and be like, okay, he said this and I said this and get your friend's opinions on it is so helpful.
[00:17:31] Michaela: Yeah, I can imagine having that fallback to kind of check in with and just be like, That was crazy, right? And having the feedback of like, yeah, that was crazy. crazy
[00:17:40] Aaron: i've never been a front man I was a you know on tour as a
sideman for a long time and now i've produced records and stuff michaela and I have been together for 17 years So i've seen her have to make these big decisions essentially on her own, you know, I can add feedback, but it's her band is her name and her path so I can imagine, The little confidence boost of having other opinions there.
I can imagine that when you guys do come to a decision, seemingly would be a little easier to sit in that decision, because it's been processed multiple times. There's multiple opinions already in there.
[00:18:09] Michaela: Well, And I think Zach, what you pointed out of the challenging power dynamic between artists or bands and industry people, the like parental figure, I've experienced that so many times.
And it's really hard to remind yourself that when you're in a position of okay, there's these business people that have access and they're going to help me or my band. But remembering that. really how it's supposed to operate is that they're working for you. it's so hard to remember that you're the boss, especially if you're not like selling as many tickets as you think you should be or have as much, money coming in as you think you should be and manipulation is so common.
that's Unfortunate. And I'm always careful to not vilify business people. And also like, I worked at a record label when I was right out of college and feel like I got a different perspective having that be my first job. But you know, I had experiences with. powerful booking agents who gave me the whole talk of like, when I sign an artist, I sign them for life and we're in this together and like this whole emotional like, and then that was not true at all.
when I got pregnant, all of a sudden we weren't in for life together.
So I think it's a really good reminder and especially for young artists starting out listening to this podcast no matter what you leverage your power you think you have Operating in this system, knowing that people are working for you and not letting yourself get manipulated by name and power so that you feel so disempowered that you lose track of what your artistic vision and purpose is and then not able to run your business because you're trusting people based purely on, oh, I hope they help me.
I'll do whatever they say.
[00:19:51] Zach: hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:19:51] Brian: an artist is the power, it's everything we are. yes, there's people that can help and all that stuff, but everybody's coming along is going off your energy. I think younger kids may be a little faster, it's all about the songs you're writing and stuff like that.
and if you've got that together, like everybody who doesn't follow you, you've got the right things put together they're going to come behind your business and stuff like that. It's a crazy thing to say, like this person's got the power to do this and that, and there are people, powerful people.
But you're doing great work, people are going to want to be around you and that's just how it works. like, you have your own gravitational pull,
[00:20:25] Michaela: Yeah, and remembering that whatever leverage you think you have or power you think you have changes. It's so easy to think that our power as artists is determined by our numbers and the data that we have. business people might be looking at and that stuff can change so fast So it just takes a lot of continual Confidence believing in yourself rather than thinking Okay, anybody out there who's gonna give me help?
And remembering that for us, for a band, for an artist, this is our whole thing. But these business people are tending to lots of other things. end a conversation like, okay, we need to handle these things. we're going back. That's all that's on our mind. But then they're getting off that call, like having to tend to 10 different emails and multiple other artists they're working with.
So likethe lag time the, Different directions they're all pulled in is very different from what it is for us to operate our business
[00:21:21] Aaron: Yeah, speaking on all of that I guess kind of we've been tiptoeing around the word gatekeepers There are people in this industry that inevitably need to be on your team for certain doors to open and certain things to happen one of which we Talk a lot about really recently on this show seems like the last five months that conversations have really changed But like is starting our own label is master ownership is Kind of betting on yourself and being like man.
I don't know if we really need a label to do that anymore You know have they lost their influence have they lost that I'm just wondering like what were some of the decisions Or conversations you guys had that was like, man, now's the time to do this, to bet on ourselves, take ownership and grab the steering wheel on the label side of things.
[00:22:03] Zach: I think one of the most powerful moments that we had with that was right after the pandemic. We had always had the honor of working with these like successful producers, whether it was Dessner or Dave Cobb or even Charlie Peacock. I was in the mindset where I was like, we need this outside guy every time
help us make a good sounding record.
And Brian was like, I want to try it without them. And it was really scary. But then after we got our feet wet and we were in the studio and we were making the record and we were having fun, I was like, I'm sure we'll make a record with another producer on our own timeline whenever we want, but it sure is nice.
Knowing now that we don't need that to make the music that we love. And I think that was a really big Kind of growing moment and brian brought that to the table and i'm glad that
canine and I trusted him And followed suit with that
[00:23:02] Brian: that feeling of like, Oh, I need this. producer. whether it's conscious or subliminal, like this thought like, not good enough as we are, in whatever shape or form that might take.
[00:23:11] Aaron: I'm saying this fully knowing that I spend my time in my studio here helping people make records.
One of my favorite things is first sentence in Glen John's book all it takes to be a producer is an opinion and the confidence to
convince everybody in the room that you're right. And it's really like,laughable, but like, it's kind of, that's what
[00:23:29] Michaela: it
[00:23:30] Kanene: do you have that tattooed on your, uh, on your lower back or
[00:23:33] Brian: You know,
Sometimes people put vocabulary to
things that
you can't say out loud.
When I do a Lo Bella record, it's different than another record. 'cause Zach and Kain areequal. So we do it, and it's a lot more that I have to go through with this band when we'reproduce a record.
But I like it. I love it. wouldn't change the thing. it's like me and Kine going my attention, like one of these songs she wrote, I think it's the best song that I've ever been a part of. I show it to everybody. in the middle of it, she went to the other guy and wrote the song and I love these melodies and stuff like that. And she came back upstairs, I got a song and I was like, with that, I wanted to do that, you know?
So like, it took us after the song was done to get to a good place on But if we didn't as a group, create some of the coolest things I've ever heard, honestly. I knew that we could do it because we'd been in the rooms with these people and I knew what they were doing and they had a John Lowe.
So all I needed was a John Lowe. I needed the good engineer and we all could do that. doesn't take anything away from Aaron Deser or Dave Cobb. Dave Cobb just made a insane record for the Red Clay Strays. The last Chris Stapleton record is the best record Dave Cobb's ever made.
So he's on the top of his game. But anywaythought we could do it together and we did, Love Songs for Losers is the testament of us just like believing in each other, I think, and that's moving forward the same thing.
[00:24:51] Michaela: was that part of your decision of the building that confidence in your ability to produce together to then decide, all right, let's also take business back in our own hands and start our own label.
[00:25:01] Zach: Yeah, probably subconsciously for me at least it was like Okay, this last record that we made. I was like, Hey, this song is the single. And it felt good when the single that they picked didn't work. And then the one that I picked worked. I was like, all right, I might be getting pretty good at this.
Maybe we can do this on our own.
[00:25:22] Brian: think in general The past couple years since we made love songs for losers We just like have been looking under the hood and we're like, you know what we're obviously Dedicated to this.
[00:25:34] Zach: This is what we're doing With our lives, let's make it as beautiful as possible. Let's bring in the people that we love working with. And let's remind ourselves that no one is going to not in a rebellious way, literally, no, one's going to tell us what to do. there was a while there where we were like, Hey, why isn't the management like telling us What to do and we like finally learned oh, that's not really their role this is all like inside baseball stuff, but it sounds like that's what your podcast Listeners
[00:26:07] Michaela: it is to the, to the degree that people are comfortable sharing this stuff. Mm hmm. we say that this podcast is like anti promotion, anti album cycle. We're not trying to like promote your latest thing. We're trying to like be in service of each other and build a community.
[00:26:23] Aaron: we find the conversation so much more fruitful and so much more. inspiring, at least for us. When we're able to talk to people like, you guys, who have seen both views from the top of the mountain, and like, sitting on your ass at the bottom of the valley, like, what now?
[00:26:37] Zach: my favorite moment of the like top of the mountainit was When we were trying to put out our first record There was a bidding war between, I think, Warner Brothers and Universal and Atlantic was in the mix a little bit, but it was mostly between Warner Brothers and Universal, And the universe decided for us that we weren't going to go with Warner Brothers or Universal.
And then like three weeks later, Warner Brothers fired everyone that was trying to get us on their record label. And they were like, we'll be here for everything. We're a family, da da da. Thenbam, they're all fired, except for like two of them. And then we found out that that was like a norm. That was like a thing that happened with major labels a lot.
the honor of being able to work with Jay Heron at Sony ATV and,
Descendant. And then, working with the guys at Dualtone has been so fun. We all live in the neighborhood. Daniel Higby, I could throw a ball over that mountain
and it would hit his house.
Yeah, he's
like right there. but yeahIt was alarming to be like, Oh man, your whole could just be fired I mean, when we were releasing our third record and Brian
can tell me if I'm wrong, I think that the record closed while we were about to release our third record.
They were just like, we're sorry.
[00:27:59] Brian: Yeah, the record label closed for sure.
[00:28:02] Zach: so anyways, it's just believe in yourself.
[00:28:05] Aaron: Yeah. I think that goes so far, both business wise and creativity wise. you know, It's no secret that, people aren't running to Sam Goody to pay 18 cause I heard one song on the radio, and so to me the value in records these days is longevity. And Shelf life and having it, be timeless, you know I grew up on the band and the talking heads and all of these bands that you hear 15 seconds you're like, oh it's these people because they were so grounded in who they were and what their voice was and what their vision was then a record stances that it's a record of where you as a band and as writers were at that time and You can listen to it 20 years from now You know, feel fresh.
you as an artist will still be proud of it rather than chasing that major label deal and the sound that's going to get you on that major label deal. And you know, what's going to get you on the top of that, whatever new music Friday playlist or whatever it is, you know, just being grounded in what you are, what you want, what you need and what your vision is.
It gives people something to follow, to use the followers term.
[00:29:06] Michaela: Well, It's also a good reminder that the only thing we can
control is the music we make. But all of that stuff of, like, your record label closing down, the month of your release. Or I had, like, my publicist quit, the week that my record came out.
And, like, there's so many things that are completely out of our control that's just, like, Timing and luck and we always personalize it my success would be determined if I'm good enough and that's just not how it works. Unfortunately.
Yeah.
[00:29:37] Brian: we released our record two weeks before the pandemic. The record's beautiful. We set Heron up for winning Grammys with Taylor Swift. we all it's like you have no control over it. No control over the outcome. The only thing you have control over is is this the best representation of what I do right now? And I know that's a hard thing to do, but you can't chase anything. You got to do it is right. It feels right for you. And hopefully people want to listen to it. then you have all the other factors, you know?
[00:30:06] Michaela: I'm curious if you guys are comfortable just talking about the balance of alsowhere a lot of your income and livelihood is dependent on going on tour how you guys construct that schedule with what is needed and necessary financially and also having young children or children of all ages. not to be biased against fathers, but particularly Canine, from the, the mother's perspective. Cause I
have this conversation all the time. It's still like such a, like a, how as a
mom, especially when the babies are young, likehow do you, it. I get asked this even as I do it, I'm like,
I still always want to know how everybody else does
it.
So.
[00:30:46] Kanene: my, uh, grandma always claimed she was related to sca, JOA Kago,
[00:30:51] Michaela: Mm hmm.
[00:30:51] Kanene: who led Lewis and Clark through the wilderness with a baby on her back. And I literally had a picture of Saka Joa that I
would look at, and I would just think about her literally every day. And I was like, if she can
do it, I can do
it.
Um, it's hard and I feel like I've talked to a lot of women
here. the trepidation that is going to come with, being pregnant on the road, having a little one on the road,
all that. I think at the very
beginning, when I first found out I was pregnant, there were some people on our team who I had to talk down, who I think decided that they wanted to process all of their fears about what if I couldn't do it anymore?
What if it was like, what if the baby gets sick? What if the yada yada. And I was kind of like, Being in a band and being a musician, at least for now, before the AI overlords take over it's a human endeavor. You know, We're all like, what if any of us get sick? What if any of us, whatever.
So I kind of had to see it from that way. It was honestly, it was probably being really pregnant on the road. I think I was like 39 weeks pregnant. We played New Orleans
Jazz
[00:31:49] Michaela: Oh my gosh.
[00:31:50] Kanene: standing with my enormous belly watching Snoop Dogg.
[00:31:52] Michaela: Wow.
[00:31:53] Aaron: Amazing.
[00:31:54] Kanene: So these people in inflatable penis costumes on the stage
[00:31:57] Zach: That guy was
awesome.
[00:31:58] Brian: Thank you. is happening right now? everyone's like, Soba, we get drunk. Soba, we smoke. And I'm just standing there like about to go into labor.
[00:32:06] Kanene: Um,
That's fun. You feel super conspicuous, which hopefully you're like a little okay with if you've chosen to be a performer. But I think having like a newborn.
Baby, taking him down to the green room, which was like full of other bands. He's screaming, I need to feed him. No one moved for me to sit. So I like
nursed him on a toilet
seat in a bathroom, not even like the lid.
There's no like toilet seat. It was like on the rim.
[00:32:32] Michaela: I've done that too. Laughter.
[00:32:34] Kanene: yeah. So you're like, this is my life now. And it's just like one more thing. I think touring is always kind of like that. It's hard. There's a lot. You're going through life you're a person in a body and then bringing another kid into it.
It's
just,
it's like another thing to take care of. There are definitely ways I would do it differently now. Um, I honestly don't know if I could physically and mentally do it again. But I think, for all moms and women in the industry, like there are a lot more female musicians around than I feel like even when we started, but it's still,I still feel like an anomaly And I feel like a lot of people who are a little more old school in their thoughts, it's kind of like,they're doing you a favor, letting you be there.
And
I think when I had a baby and we were bringing a baby into all of these backstages and stuff I was really hyper aware of not inconveniencing anybody and him just not being in the way and really minimizing his needs and my needs. to a really detrimental amount that haven't really fully processed or like talked through with everyone because it was hard.
And think if I was to do it again or any advice I give to people, it's just like, speak up. you have a place there. This is how the human race
goes forward. babies are normal. Um, They might not be normal where you are, but tell people what you need, find people who want to help and support you.
And just believe in that because, you know, my band mates were very supportive. And I think I was still just afraid. I was afraid that I was bothering.
That is
my thing that I really needed to learn how to get over is like the fear of being annoying or like being whatever,
[00:34:05] Michaela: An inconvenience.
[00:34:06] Kanene: an inconvenience and always needing to be perfect and totally unproblematic.
I think a lot of women struggle with that. I think it's very difficult to feel like show ready and, creative and full of energy When you are caring for a child, but it can be done. And. I think a lot of it is just being honest with yourself.
People around you ask for what you need.
[00:34:24] Michaela: From my perspective, we've toured a lot with our child and mostly it's been, I'm just there basically for child care. And Mikayla will tour either in like an acoustic trio or solo.
And we're always touring in a van or a Subaru. We're not on a bus.
[00:34:40] Kanene: Right.
[00:34:40] Aaron: I can, definitely sympathize and
back up with that feeling with mothers of like, not wanting to rock the boat, not wanting to like take up space or, cause any more struggle my observation, I've seen. Like you said, people in your team were processing their own emotions around your pregnancy.
I definitely view that with Michaela. this very vigilant watch on like, is the mom handling it? Is everything okay?
Where like, I've seen men that are new fathers just be like an absolute hot mess. there's kind of like a little bit more patience of like, well, of course, yeah, there's like a newborn, like they're doing it. My experience is I became a new dad and all of a sudden in my view, was treated with like more respect and more constantly well, he's a dad now. Like he needs, need to
pay him more. Like
we can't afford to take you out for, three weeks, but what about like a weekend? Like that kind of thing, where it's like, whoa, this is the same. Relatively the same life change here. why am I getting respect while she's
getting an inquisitive look,
[00:35:30] Kanene: You have a baby in a bar, that's, it feels like that's what people are,
[00:35:35] Michaela: Or, if, if I'm ever out by myself like, I'm leaving for a tour tonight alone, I often get questioned like,who's with your child? I'm like she has another parent, but I'm curious if, like, the same concern was expressed when, uh, or Brian were, having children.
Cool. Yeah.
[00:35:53] Zach: it's usually just people don't know what to talk about. So they just bring that up. It's like when a fan comes up and they're like, I saw you in Vermont. And you're like, okay,
I
don't remember. I don't know what to say. And then especially when it was like well, what about
here, here, here, here?I just felt like it was always just kind of a talking point. So I was just waiting.
To talk about something else
[00:36:16] Kanene: the hard thing for me was a lot of people assumed I would quit. A lot of people were just like, oh, well then you won't do this anymore. That was a bad feeling.
[00:36:25] Brian: People say weird things to me anyway,
not when she has a kid, they would never say things to me in the morning at an airport, but like a random stranger will say something to her. And I'm like, people are dumb sometimes,
[00:36:38] Zach: a there's a lot of one.
Yeah, brian's right There's a lot of wonderful people out there and then there's people where you're just like hey, man you're talking to a human
[00:36:47] Michaela: Right talk to a person we try to talk about this because I was really shocked at that experience when I got pregnant of how many people asked me like, Are you going to tour anymore? Or you're not going to go back to work. Like thinking I was going to quit literally my booking agent just sighed and was like, Oh God, this is going to be so hard.
And then like, we stopped working together it felt like this liability. And this second time around, I have this same fear of Oh, I'm marked. people are just going to assume, Oh, she's really going to quit now. Cause she has a second kid. That's even more impossible. And I feel like I have.
That anxiety. So my,My response is instead of I hear women say like, Oh, then I feel like we need to hide our children in our music careers and not show like that we have families. And I'm having the opposite reaction of like, I'll probably annoy people with how much I talk about. being a mother because I'm just like,
it's possible even for men too.
I don't think it's only women who experienced this. I think it's a industry culture that I think a lot of people
are talking more about, but I do
think it's a different experience for women.
[00:37:54] Kanene: I mean, People say weird things to y'all. One of our very first shows, we were opening for the Civil Wars. This was like before we had a CD out or anything. And this lady that was in the audience wrote this really long letter about the things we were doing well and all the things that she personally would change.
And one of them was like, the men in the band should not wear wedding rings. You need to let the audience,
[00:38:14] Michaela: thank you're available.
[00:38:15] Kanene: fantasize about that. She told me I needed to wear, one long dangly earring,
[00:38:23] Zach: I think she is the chimp crazy lady
[00:38:26] Kanene: She's a Florida
woman. it is funny like, some people, It's like, why don't you want someone
to talk about their wife or kids?
Like, Doesn't that make them more
interesting?
[00:38:34] Michaela: It feels like an archaic View that like musicians are supposed to only just be like a fantasy for people and not whole humans.
[00:38:42] Kanene: or they're just supposed to be tragic, drug addicted, die young cautionary tales. And,
Prine was the biggest rock star ever
when he was, in his freakin 70s, there's more to be had
as you get older
[00:38:57] Aaron: Definitely. I just have to note that you guys got like a unsolicited full page review uh, career advice
from a woman in the audience and that's
just so rare. Maybe because, I'm with Michaela, but that, that seems like a space that's like exclusively reserved for 60 year old men, 60 year old
[00:39:14] Zach: Well,
you just need to tour florida more that's all I have to say about that
[00:39:21] Kanene: Oh man, it was so specific.
[00:39:23] Michaela: that's hilarious. I mean being musicians. I do feel like it opens you up to like people just think They can say anything or that they know you. It's like a whole other weird emotional uh, boundary less experience that you have to combat sometimes.
Anyways, we don't want to take any more of your time.
Thank you
so much for sharing so generously just about your experiences.
[00:39:44] Brian: you guys. Thank
[00:39:45] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:39:46] Kanene: thanks
[00:39:46] Aaron: Uh,