The Secret Sisters are a Grammy-nominated (sister) duo from Alabama who have put out 5 records, and navigated a rollercoaster of highs and lows from being signed to Universal records and produced by T Bone Burnett, getting dropped, to lawsuits with a manager, bankruptcy, opening for (and being produced by) Brandi Carlisle, and onto a Grammy nomination. We talk about that ride, the lessons learned and experience earned, motherhood, doing the hard internal work and how that improves your creativity, putting the play back in music, and more.
The Secret Sisters are a Grammy-nominated (sister) duo from Alabama who have put out 5 records, and navigated a rollercoaster of highs and lows from being signed to Universal records and produced by T Bone Burnett, getting dropped, to lawsuits with a manager, bankruptcy, opening for (and being produced by) Brandi Carlisle, and onto a Grammy nomination. We talk about that ride, the lessons learned and experience earned, motherhood, doing the hard internal work and how that improves your creativity, putting the play back in music, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And this is the second year of our podcast. What did you say? Episode 58? Insane. And we are so happy to still be here and still feel really excited and inspired.
an So thankful that you are here listening.
[00:00:29] Aaron: And just a couple of quick things before we jump into today's episode. Like Michaela mentioned, we can't do this without you guys. And with that, we can't grow without you guys. If you have listened to an episode of our show before and know that you're already a fan, we have just a quick ask for you.
The easiest, quickest thing to do is to make sure that you either follow or subscribe on your listening or viewing platform of choice. The second thing to do would be to take your favorite episode, whether it's this one or one of the 57 others and share that with somebody that doesn't know about our show.
And lastly, We're all involved in the streaming world. We all know how horrendous the payment is from streaming platforms, but we've realized that people don't really realize that podcasts get paid nothing for streams. every podcast you listen to is streamed for free. And so support comes from two places, either from the audience or from advertisers.
And we don't want to interrupt these conversations with ads. So that means we turn to you guys. And to do that, we started a Patreon. And we offer a whole bunch of things over there, basically a deeper dive into what we talk about on this show. If you're interested in learning more and supporting this show directly, there is a link in the show notes below.
[00:01:36] Michaela: And one of the things we really value about This podcast is the fact that we are not music journalists. We are musicians ourselves. So we try to highlight these as conversations rather than interviews that it feels like we're just sitting around the table with some fellow musicians and talking about the realities of what is building a lifelong career around your art.
[00:02:00] Aaron: And the reality of that is that there is so much that is outside of our control. And so we like to keep our conversations focused on what is within our control. And that usually ends up being our mindsets, our habits, our routines, our creativity. And we distilled that down to the question, What do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And we got to have that conversation today with the Secret Sisters.
[00:02:26] Michaela: Lydia and Laura from the Secret Sisters are Aptly titled Sisters from Alabama, and they have an incredible story. They've been doing this for 15 years. They started out being discovered through an audition, like full 1960s style auditioning for, Dave Cobb and T Bone Burnett, who were putting together a.
Singing group. They've had major label deals, they've had major label deals fall apart, bankruptcy, rebuilding themselves. They've had so many highs and lows and just so much, hard earned wisdom that they were able to share.
[00:03:02] Aaron: And you can really feel that wisdom in this conversation. It feels, very grounded, though we focus on a lot of the questions that all of us have.
Am I doing the right thing? How do I keep doing this? How do I do this with the family? we focus on a lot of the questions, but there's a groundedness and acceptance of being in these questions, which I just love sitting in that unknown and being comfortable there.
Like Mikayla said, both Laura and Lydia were very open and transparent and generous. And it's what I love about these conversations, is that it comes away feeling like we're all in this together. And it kind of sucks, but it kind of sucks for everybody, which makes it awesome. And so with without further ado, here's our conversation with the Secret Sisters.
[00:03:44] Laura: You guys have had so much happen in your careers and your lives and being family and mothers. where are you like right now in life and career? And what is it feeling like in this moment?
Well, We just put out our fifth record a couple weeks ago. this is actually the first record that we've made. After having children, we were both pregnant when we made our fourth record. But we didn't really get to, of course, properly promote that because of the pandemic.
And so, this record feels just energetically different. I don't feel as. hard on us as I did on prior records. I don't feel this kind of nagging in the back of my mind about like, oh, you really need to like promote it like crazy and it needs to get award nominations. I don't feel that with this.
And I think a lot of it is due to not only the pandemic, but just motherhood for us. Motherhood just turned everything on its head. And, all of a sudden the things that we used to have time for and the things that used to really matter to us are just non issues now. And so it's nice to be at that place where like, we've made a record we're proud of, and we're excited to be playing shows that feel real.
Manageable and not too strenuous, but, also recognizing that, at the end of the day, the music is not everything for us anymore. that's a hard adjustment to make, and, I think we're still kind of navigating that we're actually. We just agreed to do a five week tour in the fall that will be announced later, opening for one of our heroes.
And that feels really scary because we've not been away from our kids for longer than like a week at a time. So, you know, There are new adjustments to make and thankfully the industry is. Forgiving and you can kind of forge whatever path works for you. You might not make much money but that's okay.
Sometimes. Yeah.
[00:05:34] Michaela: how do you feel?
[00:05:36] Lydia: Yeah, I, she's really hit the nail on the head. It's just been a, a wild time trying to figure it out what we want and what kind of balance feels healthy to us. Yeah, I think touring is just gonna look different for the foreseeable future. And we're okay with it. It feels like we're in a good spot.
We're doing like 4 shows in a month right now, apart from this big tour in the fall, which we're really nervous about. But, right now While they're little, we will never get that time back. And like Laura said, it doesn't feel like music is everything anymore. And that is hard to admit.
It's hard for me to admit that like being an artist is not my entire world. And I think people expect it to be in a lot of ways. So yeah, there, there's this constant struggle of, what am I, if I'm not just an artist,
[00:06:26] Aaron: Absolutely. Oh, yeah. obviously, Michaela can speak to this on a more, you Parallel trajectory as you being a mother, but my experience as a, becoming a parent, as a father was that, that kind of letting go. Like, everything in my career before this, I was like, really felt that I had to like, grip it, and steer it, and control it, and be like it's going this way, it's gonna go this, and just the amount of like, kind of just, like, let it go trust that has to happen now, is really scary.
I think I like it more in a way you know, I take my career with a little bit bigger grain of salt and that's pretty nice. But there's definitely just the kind of Let it go and be like, let's see what happens.
[00:07:03] Michaela: think it's healthy to have some distance from your obsession with your artist identity and career. I definitely ping pong every, where sometimes I'm just like, Fuck it. Let's have a second kid. Who cares what happens?
All that matters is family. This is more important than anything. And then the next minute I'm like, Oh my god. Is my career over? Have I like, Lost everything? My drive? Also, saying out loud My artist identity and my music and my career isn't everything to me anymore there's like inherent Fear in that of saying out loud because you're like, oh no who's gonna hear that and then decide I'm not in the game
[00:07:41] Lydia: yes, yes,
[00:07:43] Laura: Yes. It feels, it totally feels that way.
[00:07:46] Lydia: Yeah. That's a real fear. And, I don't know, especially the way that we started our careers. We were very, fortunate in the beginning to get really great opening spots and good opportunities. because we were thrust into the industry like that, it felt like our career was just supposed to do this, be going up the entire time and now. After COVID and after being a parent and while being a parent, it's just, it is not linear in any sort of way. And I think coming to terms with that, we may die with it being like this, that's really, really hard for me to come to terms
[00:08:23] Laura: We may die from it being like this.
[00:08:27] Lydia: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, what are you striving for?
You have to really think about what you're striving for.
[00:08:34] Laura: and being okay with your definition of success evolving, what I thought was success when I was 25 is so different now. And it's also Lydia and I both really struggle with External voices and pressures. What is everyone like, what are our peers doing right now?
And what is our manager going to think? And what is our label going to think? And it's like, I had to really do a lot of soul searching and realize in myself that that is a tendency that is not healthy. It's something I've done my entire life where I try to like maneuver my life and my goals and ambitions and my purpose around what others.
fine to be valuable. And I'm finally at the point where I'm like, you know what, I don't want to do that. And I know it would be a great career move, but I don't want to, or I know it would bring in a lot of money, but I don't feel right about that. it's taken me 38 years to get to that point.
And our definition of success is just so different, I think, than it was 10 years ago and compared to other artists who are. In our world, it's just so different. And, I don't long to be everywhere all the time. I value like stillness and calm and like routine. Probably I'm in the wrong career, honestly, we're being honest. Um, but you know, Trying to find that balance of like. How do I nurture those needs of myself with also my desire to create something and share it with, the people who are meant to hear it. That's hard.
[00:10:08] Michaela: I think what you were talking about, though, of like, The evolution of your own ideas, success, understanding, and getting really in touch with what you want and knowing that that might not align with what you need to do to get certain things that you've always wanted. There's such like this weird, I'm like in this same process.
I'm also 37, so we're like same age range, motherhood. there's this weird grief in it because I'm like, yeah, I don't want to do what I was doing, five, eight years ago. I don't, even when I look at people who are at the height of success, like a Brandi Carlile, I look at that now and I, and I think for myself, that seems too taxing and too exhausting for me.
And I don't think that's what I want, even though I used to think that was what I wanted. And kind of like coming to terms with that and being like, Oh, I still feel this sadness about letting go of things that I'm okay with not striving for, but I'm not yet really at peace with it. Like it's such this weird disconnect and feeling.
Just the loss of freedom like you said, like you're so excited to go on a five week tour but also that's daunting and hard to grapple with being away from your children for that long. That's a huge thing of this concept. I used to think like, Oh, when you have children, you have all these obligations and I didn't fully understand.
Well, Yes, you have obligations to care for your child, so you're restricted in what you're able to do. But also the incredible longing and desire to be with your
[00:11:48] Laura: Mm hmm.
[00:11:48] Michaela: to be with your family. Like, I want to go do those things and I'm not stopped from doing it only because I'm obligated to be a present wife and mother.
But because I want
[00:11:58] Lydia: Yes.
[00:11:59] Michaela: mother, that's really
[00:12:01] Lydia: so deeply. everything you just said is exactly how we feel. And especially while the kids are small, It does feel very daunting to think about a five week tour and the milestones that we might miss, we both have two and four year olds, who knows what will happen.
So yeah the sacrifice is sometimes really hard to draw a line,
[00:12:21] Laura: I don't mean to like diminish the role of, involved present fathers, because obviously they are amazing, but I do think there's a different difficulty for women who are touring musicians. I feel that I know so many men who have children at home and they're like, I got to go away for five weeks and it's no big deal, because everything keeps running smoothly at home.
But for me, it's like, I can't even imagine my house not having me keeping things going. And my husband is wonderful. He's very like on top of it, but it's just if I do go away for five weeks, that's going to be good for my career, but I'm going to be worried the whole time that something's going to hit the fan while I'm gone, and I'll be truthful with you. We actually have turned down. Some touring opportunities because of my anxiety over leaving my children. We have a really strong fan base overseas in the UK, and they want us there desperately. But I've told our people, I'm like, Unless there is a way financially to afford for my kids to go with me, I can't be on a different continent from them.
It's not that I don't think they're in great hands with their caretakers, but it's just that I can't have that many miles between us. I just can't. I'm like, I'm chained to them in a way that, like you said, I know I'm supposed to keep them alive and keep them happy and healthy, but like I need them as much as they need me.
And so I cannot be that far from them anymore, there's actually a song on our record called I can never be without you anymore. And it's about that. It's that jarring reality of what have I done? Like I have created a person that like, I've had horrible breakups before that devastated me for a little while.
And you know what, I'm over that. But like my children, they have got to be with me and okay, in order for me to be okay, you know,
[00:14:13] Aaron: I will say is I, was aware of that, I don't want to be away from my kids and aware of that a mother's instinct like I want to be around my kids. I want to take care of them, but like experiencing that firsthand, being next to Michaela there is something Physiological that I see happen with women that doesn't happen with men.
Like I feel that I want to be around my daughter I want to be around my family. I want to take care of them But there's this deeper thing that I have witnessed With Michaela and other close friends that I know that are mothers that You know, this is like, an outside appendage of your body that you made.
And so it's, in my judgment of physiological reaction to their wellbeing and their, presence that like, I didn't understand as a man
[00:14:51] Laura: yeah. You, You can't understand any of it. Like people tell you ahead of time, like what they think you should expect, but it's like, until you're in the trenches, you're like, Oh, this is what this is. This is a lot different than what they warned me to be aware of, so yeah, I'm with you. I do think it's completely physiological.
I think we're just designed that way. I actually think it's like a biological necessity for mothers to need to be proximally near. Their offspring, I do. We're still animals, even though we don't like to think we are.
[00:15:22] Aaron: Yeah. Touching on like a more, tangible aspect of this tour that you guys have been talking about, this long tour. How did you guys get to the point of making this decision? what were the actual steps? Did you take a lot of talk? Did it take a lot of like, time apart to think about it
Was it just something that you couldn't pass up? How did you decide, okay, we can do this?
[00:15:41] Lydia: I think it was a lot of different things. I think the fact that it's still pretty far off, gave us enough time to think about it and plan, because it doesn't start until September. And also, because our children are just a little bit older, there's enough independence there to where I don't feel horrible going away.
It's going to be. not just for us, but for the people who are caring for them while we're gone. I mean, My husband's going to have to take off work and we're going to have to get sitters and, there's a lot that will be happening, but, it was a really great opportunity. For us we'll be the first of three on a big tour with Ray LaMontagne and Gregory Allen Isaacoff, and that just felt like something we couldn't pass up, um, and we have not done a tour that long in probably six years, seven years.
So it almost just felt like now or never in a way, like, if we're going to do this, let's do it now and just see if it's something that we can tackle. If it feels too long, then we know we're not going to do this again. So luckily we have a really good support system and, people are being really, really great about it, So we'll see how it goes.
[00:16:47] Laura: but you're so right, Michaela, what you said about like, there are certain things that I have to do to achieve certain things, and I don't know if I want to do those things. Like, We feel that so much, and I actually, I'm like you, like, I look at other artists who are just having like, a peak moment, and I think When do they ever have time to sit and read a bedtime story to their baby?
Or are they, so exhausted when they get done with all of the work and all of the like, career stuff? When do they pour into themselves? Because I already struggle with good self care tactics amidst
trying to keep a career afloat, I'm trying to keep children alive, and even now I'm having a hard time balancing everything, so I can't imagine if my career were really just like blowing up how torn I would feel between, beating that and also doing the things that are Soul affirming.
But yeah, you know, this tour kind of felt right. and Lydia and I have both had to really work a lot in the last few years on gut instinct, listening to that voice and that nagging, that happens in both of us. And usually our souls are like aligned on it. Which is a good thing. And so this, we both individually, when we got the offer to do this tour, we were both like individually really tempted by it. And then when we talked to each other, there was like some tenacity. Cause I was like, what do you think about this tour offer? I was like, she's going to say no.
And then she was like, I kind of want to do it. I was like, I do too. So it was like, you know, it helped that individually we were both really wanting to do it. And then as a duo, we were like, this feels like a good moment. So it doesn't always happen that way where it feels really like, a strong, yes, you know,
[00:18:29] Michaela: is there ever a challenge, allowing yourself. To enjoy those things to let yourself be free when you're on that tour to like, really enjoy it, or do you ever struggle with the guilt or the worry of, Your little babies are away and your husband now has the load and I'm also projecting because this is, I'm like, I have such a hard time with this.
[00:18:52] Laura: no,
[00:18:53] Michaela: Aaron has literally said to me, you do realize she's not only your responsibility, right? Like, I'm like, I'm sorry, you have to watch her. And I don't do this anymore. But early on especially when I was breastfeeding around the clock, and it felt like she literally was a limb.
and he would just be like, I know she's attached to you. But she's my child to like, I'm equally responsible. Like, it's not a burden. Like, I'm not
[00:19:22] Laura: so true. It happened to us just the same way. Like it still happens that way, it's tricky to let yourself Fully engage. I mean, I think the good thing about being on the road for us is that like, It's so busy until we put our bags down in our hotel room.
We are like, go, go, go. And so it helps. to not have a lot of downtime to like, Get in your head about things, but then inevitably when we get to our hotel room at night and get settled into bed We're like, I miss my kids, you know, and then then you kind of start like fretting But eventually you're so tired that you just go to sleep definitely in the early days the first few times that we left I found that to be really hard it has gotten easier Recently, I feel we've been able to Be okay and just go and do the work and then come home because we're very strategic about Not being gone for a long time.
So it's like, all right, I got five days and then i'll be back and I think the way that we have justified it for ourselves is We don't really have another income stream like, touring is how we make a living. And I can go and work five or six days a month and make enough to help support our family, or I can get a 40 hour a week job making the same amount of money and take my kids to daycare every day and not be with them.
And so it's like, those days away are really hard, but I could be away from you every single day for hours on end. And I don't desire that. Now we're coming to realize that our scenario is actually the best case scenario for our circumstances. As far as wanting to be with our kids, but also still wanting to be creative and to not let our just completely disintegrate.
[00:21:02] Lydia: And I think The generation that we grew up in, we were used to having parents who did work that 40 hour week, it feels counterintuitive that, we can go out for just a few days and make the same amount of money. And it also feels like wrong in a weird way.
Like I'm supposed to be working every day and I feel guilty. If I'm not, I feel guilty no matter what. It's just part of, my makeup. But. Yeah, I think we're still coming to terms with how that works.
[00:21:31] Michaela: I know. I felt guilty this morning because I went back to bed. Like, Our daughter goes to a little Montessori school like four days a week. And I went to, you guys know the Brother Brothers, right?
[00:21:43] Laura: Yeah. We
[00:21:44] Michaela: They, They played in Nashville last night and I wasn't gonna go and Aaron came in, he was producing a record and he came in like, 10 minutes before the show was starting and he was like go, you can go.
And I'm like, no, I'm tired. I'm like, okay. And then I went and I had one glass of wine.
[00:21:59] Lydia: Oh,
[00:22:00] Michaela: And I stayed out. We went to a friend's house afterwards and I got home at like 11 30 and I feel terrible today. I'm like one glass of wine and I feel like I was partying all night
[00:22:12] Laura: All night.
[00:22:13] Michaela: And so he Yeah, he he took Georgia to school this morning and I was like, I'm going back to bed for an hour and I couldn't even really fully sleep because I felt so guilty because I'm like She's going off to this school that we pay for I need to be up and working.
I'm like
[00:22:29] Lydia: It's so true. It is so true. We
[00:22:32] Laura: Yep. We've been
[00:22:34] Lydia: single day.
[00:22:35] Laura: every
[00:22:35] Michaela: Yeah
[00:22:36] Lydia: Yes. Oh,
[00:22:38] Michaela: your kind of like discovery story sounds so like from the 1960s or something that like you auditioned to be put in a singing group and you guys get a major label deal and all this big stuff.
I remember when that happened and like hearing about you guys and T Bone Burnett and all this stuff. And then from the outside, correct me if I'm wrong, everything fell apart. Legal battles, bankruptcy like, really hard stuff. And then you guys have been rebuilding, had a lot of great stuff happen since then.
So it seems like from the outside you've really experienced some crazy highs and crazy lows. Have you had to do, emotional work to help yourself ride that wave and accept that this volatility is part of this career and how to detach your identity as an artist and your self esteem from those outside ups and downs.
[00:23:32] Laura: I think part of our issue is that in the earlier days of our career, when we were really having these kind of crazy tumultuous experiences, I think a lot of it was due to just Youth and a little bit of not necessarily immaturity, but just not having the confidence to really stand firm about our convictions and what we believe to be right for ourselves and our careers and our, personal lives.
if we had gone through those experiences. With the maturity and the knowledge that we have now, it would have been a totally different landscape. But, I do look back at those hard moments. And I think that like, they were very crucial in shaping who we have become now in this very moment.
And so, a lot of the processing and emotional work that we did was just through songwriting, which of course is what we all do. And if you go back and listen, to our records, knowing what our timeline was, you can hear that we are writing about those difficult things that we were trying to make sense of.
But, I've had to do a lot of forgiveness work I've actually worked with a practitioner who's been helping me like let go of resentment and, embrace forgiveness for the people that I need to forgive who have played a part in making things difficult for us.
so yeah, I had to do a lot of that on my own. I don't know if Lydia did any of that on her own, but I had to, because I was holding onto so much anger and so much like Anxiety about like, the music industry is not that big of a place. And so odds are you might bump into some of the people that you have bad blood with.
And I didn't want to live in this constant Oh, what if I see so and so at a Grammy after party? I didn't want to live that way. And I'm finally at the point where I do feel like I've. recovered some of the issues, but it was really rough there for a little while.
[00:25:20] Lydia: Yeah, I don't know if other artists go through such, big ups and downs that we've had a short span of time, considering, and it happened pretty backwards for us in a lot of ways, because we felt like we started really high and then it.
Went down, it didn't go the way that you would expect it to. it feels interesting to be in this like middle ground, stable place, because I'm always wondering what's going to happen. Are we going to go down again? Are we going to go up? tough place to be in mentally.
[00:25:48] Aaron: I can only imagine that it would be, waiting for the other shoe to drop at all times kind of thing.
[00:25:53] Laura: Yeah.
[00:25:54] Lydia: I feel like we've been at the lowest of the low, the bankruptcy was. Pretty awful. if it gets bad again, maybe it at least won't be that bad.
[00:26:02] Laura: but also as we were talking about earlier, you know, at that point in, at least my life, so much of my like worth and self value was tied up in like what I do, you know, the way that my music career is going because. I didn't think that I would ever be a professional musician. It was not on my bingo card at all.
there was a lot of Oh, maybe this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And all these great things are happening and there's this kind of buzz right from the start about what we're doing. And then now it's like falling apart. So yeah, I'm grateful that it all happened.
I wouldn't want to go through it again, but also we were just such different people then that I just feel like it would never happen that way again, because we've done so much growing and changing and learning and confidence building since then, that it's that would never ever happen again because I will not allow it,
[00:26:55] Aaron: Yeah, that's so true. the biggest struggles that I've had, and the most trying times, I had this realization like, you know, It's never going to be like this again, you know, either either a I won't let it happen or be somehow it does happen again, it won't be the first time again.
So I'll be like, okay, we're here,
[00:27:12] Lydia: Been here before.
[00:27:13] Aaron: semi familiar,
[00:27:14] Laura: absolutely. And also that's the beauty of like your priorities shifting, thank goodness for motherhood, like slapping some reality into my life because it's like, okay, yeah, everything could fall apart in my music world, but like, I've still got my kids. I still have a home. I have a roof over my head.
I have a husband who is a good provider. Like. It isn't as dire as I thought it was when it happened, I know what fear is now, but I thought I knew then, it's nice to be in a place where it's okay, my music career is important to me, and I'm going to like, feed it as much as feels healthy to me, but it isn't everything that I hang all of my, Love and value and the beauty of my life does not hinge upon what my music career is doing anymore
[00:28:01] Michaela: Mm
do you guys know Emily Scott Robinson? Oh, she's wonderful and she was one of our very first guests because she's a good friend as well and we were talking about all this stuff and she said, you know, I've really had to learn to not take anything personal, including the good stuff she was like, I realized I put out a record and things start going well.
I get, signed to, she's on Oh Boy Records and there's all this buzz and press and she's like, Oh, I'm being rewarded because I meant to do this. And I like excavated my soul and did all this good work. And now the universe is rewarding me saying, yes, this is what you're supposed to do. and then I do it again and I don't get the same results.
I don't get all of the great press or the buzz and then I think. Oh, wait, maybe I'm not supposed to do this cause I've always heard like, don't take anything personally to protect yourself from the negative. I hadn't really fully understood oh, but then you also can't take the positive in which is so hard because affirmed applauded and like feel like you can are connecting.
But when you make that. Connection that it's somehow transactional and, oh, good things are happening for me. So that means like I'm on my path and
[00:29:13] Lydia: Yeah. It's a
[00:29:14] Michaela: do this. That's where you get in trouble because it's not going to go well all the time. then you can't then think. Well, It's because I'm not good at this, or I'm not meant to do music, or so I need to go find something else, which I've struggled with that.
I've been like, if I was better at this, would things be easier?
[00:29:33] Laura: It's like we're listening to you talk about us. It's like everything you say, I'm like, Oh my goodness. We are not the only people who feel like that. Yeah. We're totally there. And that's actually so profound. I had never thought of like, How important it is to like acknowledge your like successes, but not get too tied up in like dwelling on those.
I never thought about that before, but that's actually really helpful. I still have moments where I think this is not the thing I'm supposed to be doing with my life. Like, This is not the purpose or this is not the path that is right for me, but it's also like, I don't know what is, so I'm kind of just like, well, I'll show up and I'll do the best I can at what is handed to me right now.
And if a different opportunity that's a whole other line of work comes along and it is validating and joy giving and it makes sense for whatever life phase I'm in, I'm open to it, but it's been a constant for me, that constant like, maybe I should be doing something else you know, the struggle of it is often so daunting to me that I'm just that must mean this is not right for me.
If it's this hard, Why do I keep doing it? Why do I keep fighting for it? And I don't know the answer to that, but more times than I can count, Lydia has had to like talk me off a ledge because I've come so close to just being like, I can't do it anymore. You know, I'm too emotionally spent or I'm exhausted or I can't keep the lights on because the money is not good.
She's pulled me back into it so many times.
[00:31:10] Lydia: I mean, I try it's, it's not always easy, but I think at this point it's in some ways it's we've been doing this for 15 years now. and like you said, Laura, I don't know what else we would do. And the, like that 30 minutes or hour or hour and a half that we are on stage, I am reminded why. Why it matters and why we do it.
Because we are connecting on some level with some people, and that makes it feel worth it a lot of times, but there are definitely days where I'm like, man, what if I just stopped? What if I just tried something else for a while, but almost like a drug. Like you get some kind of validation, whether on stage or you get a good sync you get to write with somebody amazing.
You get all these little like positive affirmations, that keep us going. And I don't know if that's the right way to think about it, but it's definitely how I do at this point.
[00:32:08] Laura: A few weeks back, Lydia took a songwriting course with Adrian Linker, who we both love so much. Lydia told me that during the course, one of the things that she emphasized was that like, They call it playing music for a reason.
Like we are playing and she told me that and it has become just this Constant like, voice in my head that when I, like, am getting bogged down about all of the yuck that comes with trying to make your art accessible and, widely experienced, I, like, have to remind myself I never started playing music just because I wanted a good paycheck or just because I really wanted a huge crowd to applaud me and give me a standing ovation.
I did it in the privacy of my own home. never even confident enough to go out and do it in front of people. And yet somehow the stars have aligned and that is what I do. And it's important to like the career part of it, but it's supposed to be fun. music is supposed to be fun for me.
if it stops being fun, I have to figure out why and I have to pivot and not do it for the reasons that are making it not be enjoyable for me. that is really hard for me because, and I'm sure that you guys have experienced this too.
Like music has always just been like this really comforting hobby that was like a relaxing, calming thing for me. And when it made the switch from just a hobby that I did for fun into like, Oh, now it's your livelihood. And there's this constant pressure to like get better and better and better and climb, climb, climb. all of a sudden the magic is just completely stripped from the creative process. And I vowed with this record that I was not going to do that, that I'm not going to say yes to anything that doesn't just automatically feel right. And, I'm too old for that and I have too many things begging my attention for me to half heartedly agree to something just because it feels like, most people would say yes to that.
You crazy person saying no, you know,
[00:34:10] Laura and Lydia: Yeah.
[00:34:11] Laura: so I'm going to be crazy every now and then and say no, if it doesn't align with me. And. If it doesn't feel fun or it doesn't feel like something that I look forward to, then it's probably not for me. It's probably for another artist.
[00:34:23] Aaron: That's such a powerful thing to hold for yourself and like, be comfortable in that. it's not 100 percent like, yes, then maybe it's a no entrusting That creates the space for more of the good stuff to happen.
there's so much fear behind saying no. Well, what if there's not going to be something else that comes, the constantly being on the edge of like, do I just call it quits, I'm 38. I'm a couple years away from 40. But I'm like, realizing that I've had this anxiety lately of like, what if this isn't my calling?
And what if I'm missing my calling? And then I'm like, 60. And like, who's gonna hire a 60 year old? I'm gonna be like an entry level 60 year old with like 20 year old? Like, what am I
[00:35:01] Laura: Yeah, I think you might be having a midlife crisis.
[00:35:04] Aaron: I might be. you know, and I don't know why my go to is that I'm going to enter some kind of job out of nowhere where I'm like entry level of anything.
But like, I've never held a job like that in my life. But apparently that's my subconscious is like, you're obviously going to go to
[00:35:17] Laura: Yeah, it's worried about
[00:35:19] Aaron: parking spot.
[00:35:20] Lydia: you think anybody with any jobs struggles with that thought? it's the grass is always greener concept,
[00:35:27] Aaron: absolutely. And I will say we were at our daughter's friend from daycare was at her family's house. And her friend's dad is in the music industry on the label side A& R. he mentioned having the same anxiety. he's like, what happens when I inevitably like,
[00:35:44] Michaela: get
[00:35:44] Aaron: laid off.
Who's going to want to hire a 55 year old A& R guy? Like, what am I going to do? And I was like,
to me, like, he's at a nicer house. Yeah, he's at a major, major label. And it's like, Oh, well, you're set. to hear him say that he has those, congruent anxieties was like, this is not just like a us and them thing.
This is like the whole industry is toxic, like just across the
[00:36:07] Lydia: for sure.
[00:36:08] Michaela: And just also jobs in general, because we live in a society that everything is tied to our job, we all have to figure out a way to survive. And then it's morphed into this. Also, it needs to be fulfilling in our identity.
and I like always make sure to call myself out on these. Podcast, because he's sitting here and witnesses me and I feel like sometimes I can like, share some wisdom that I do not practice in my daily life.
[00:36:37] Laura and Lydia: Same with me. Yeah.
[00:36:38] Michaela: I am a, classic obsessive overthinker, always examining high anxiety, but also like, Comes off pretty chill.
A lot of people will be like, what? You seem so chill, but I'm not But then when I counter my anxiety about what are you doing time is running out blah blah blah I'm like, what are these stories and these constructs? I'm using as these parameters, what is the way that we think we have to tour or the way that tours are set up or like all of these things.
If we all just had a little more imagination and belief, we could create more sustainable ways and it might be hard work, but like literally we are operating within a system that caters to late nights and alcohol sales. And that's for a reason. it doesn't have to be like that, though, What if it was a world where it was like, of course, there's a babysitter on hand
[00:37:31] Laura: Oh.
[00:37:31] Michaela: how insane, but it could be a thing. That's what I always try to remind myself. have you guys heard of the writer, Yuval Noah Harari.
[00:37:40] Lydia: No.
[00:37:41] Michaela: He's an Israeli
[00:37:42] Aaron: Israeli American author and like, anthropologist in a way.
So all of his books are like a study of
like,
[00:37:48] Michaela: Sapiens is one of them, and yeah,
[00:37:50] Aaron: Sapiens is a famous book. But it's basically a study of like, humans as a species on the planet. Why we're here and why we are the way we are right now
[00:37:59] Michaela: and it all comes back to he's always like these are all just stories enough of us have agreed to believe in
but everything is a story money is a story countries, borders are stories like this is all just made up.
So
[00:38:16] Lydia: it up as we go.
[00:38:17] Aaron: yeah. And, you know, as a, species on this planet agreeing to believe in it. which I get, our human brain likes. so it's like, well, just follow this, but it's what if we didn't, relating it back to music industry? It's what if we didn't?
What if it was something else? back in the day saying, forties, the fifties, like the time when like big jazz bands were like the pop bands, like the musicians union was like extremely powerful.
I have a hard time seeing how there can be some kind of like organization of collective bargaining for musicians there's somebody behind you waiting for the gig, you know, and I hate to say it, but like, there's always some lawyer with a stupid large guitar collection that's gonna take your gig and doesn't care about the money.
[00:38:58] Laura: Yep. Yep. Yep. It's so true.
[00:39:01] Michaela: I have hope right now especially because, you know, motherhood is such a topic and like you said, not wanting to devalue present great fathers, but like it historically has been fathers get to have careers and mothers stay home and hold it down. But I think there is a growing community of, women like you guys, and there's lots of other women who are like, you know what?
I want to do both and there is a growing sense of like, how do we help each other in this rather than just everybody has to figure it out on their own. there's still this little shred of like, oh, who wants to hear about motherhood? Should we not talk about this that much?
And I'm like, oh, this is deep. Patriarchal misogyny ingrained in me and so therefore I'm like, I want to talk about motherhood and also like not hide the fact I'm a mother and a musician and a professional and that it's a part of me. So, of course, it's going to be. A part of what I present and what I talk about rather than trying to hide it because I'm fearful of the consequences that I've already experienced firsthand of people discounting me or abandoning me or whatever because they don't want to deal with the fact that I'm a mother.
[00:40:14] Laura: Oh,
[00:40:15] Lydia: Yeah.
[00:40:16] Laura: preach.
We have dealt with that so often. I mean, Even down to like the creation of songs that are inspired by motherhood I'll be feeling something really strongly like maternal that I want to write about. And then I'm like, well, I can't write about that because not everybody is a mom, but there are moms who need music to listen
[00:40:34] Laura and Lydia: Yeah.
[00:40:35] Laura: And I think I think like you said, it's just talking about it, I love to hear your perspective because it makes me not feel crazy. It makes me not feel alone. Like I'm the only one who's in this sea of complete confusion and identity crisis, trying to balance the creative part of me and the maternal part of me.
And so, I love when people talk about that and even like beyond the concept of motherhood, talk to me about parenthood. Talk to me about how it's hard to have a music career. But I think the trick is that we have been talking So conditioned to make sure that the illusion of this glamorous, glorious music career is upheld.
there's this unspoken pressure to like, oh, don't let anybody see behind the curtain, because then they'll realize it ain't all it's cracked up to be sometimes,
[00:41:25] Lydia: Or that you're a
[00:41:26] Laura: And it's like,
[00:41:26] Lydia: I'm guilty of that too. I place my favorite artists up on a pedestal and I just think of them as not human, and I want to keep them there, you know? it's just kind of part of humanity too. They don't want to think of.
our personal lives. They just want to listen to our music and not think of anything else. Which I get, but there are also people who want to hear about that. And we write from a very personal level, when we write songs, we try to write, in a way to where it would apply to motherhood, but also that could also apply to another situation.
So I feel like we're always toeing that line,
[00:42:03] Aaron: yeah, absolutely. I feel like, you know, in the history of show business or something like that, you put this character up and you want to make this artist or this person seem larger than life. I get why that is appealing to the general public it's an escape.
It's something to aspire to. It's like, ah, I could be that, you know, it's like that American dream kind of thing where it's like, It can be great. I can be larger than life. I also like wonder if, maybe now is a time that we can shift that and the way that people can, you know, people, an audience can be inspired by artists is by artists being real and being like, man, this sucks.
I got a flat tire on the way to bring my kid to school too. And then my kid was late and I had to go to the office and the lady was me. Like, All whatever the daily stuff. In a time like now where like people are starting to be more open about. Seeking out therapy or more open about mental struggles or financial struggles or whatever it is in this time where people are like coming to a point, world of social media where they're like, kind of being a little bit more real and accepting of things.
They're like, maybe now there's an opening, where artists can be that aspirational figure by being real and kind of leading in that way.
[00:43:10] Laura: I think that obviously we do things Creatively that we are willing to share with like you said the public at large, but I also think too for me, I'm a human I'm so multifaceted. And like being a musician, it's just a small part of my life.
It's an important part, but it's just like one of many pieces of me. And so when I get to speak to other creative minds who are like, Hey, This is hard. We're grateful for what we've got. And we're, trying to figure out a balance. that validation keeps me creating. And so I feel like even if the public at large doesn't get to see all the like yucky behind the scenes, it's like, we all do.
And when we can all be in communication and be like, Hey, this is a hard business and I see you and I understand your struggle because I'm having it too. It's
[00:44:00] Laura and Lydia: Mm hmm.
[00:44:01] Laura: If anything, maybe that just serves the purpose of keeping everybody going as a collective, I do think that what you guys are doing is actually really important.
part of that puzzle. And I I hope that lots of artists know about this podcast because I would find it fascinating as just a fan of these artists that you talk to, but also just as a like, creator myself. I'm like, oh my goodness, I can't believe Sierra Hall has struggles like I do.
I can't believe, all these incredible people that I've listened, talked to you guys. I'm like, wow, like we're all doing it. We're all just doing it and we're going to keep doing it because we don't know what else to do. And we've got each other's back a little bit.
[00:44:38] Michaela: we had Mary Chapin Carpenter on and I go back to that conversation all the time because I'm just like, Mary Chapin Carpenter, quadruple platinum selling artists, like 18 Grammy nominations. She feels all the same stuff. She told us that like she had a manager who didn't return her call for like a year and she was like, I'm embarrassed to share this because It took me over that time to like, finally be like, this isn't okay.
And I was like, it's really important to know, where in your career was this? Was this the beginning or had you already had your heights of success? And she was like, no, I was very successful even during this. sharing this stuff. Not everybody is comfortable with this and it's been interesting doing this some people are like, yes, we need to do this.
Some people are not comfortable sharing this kind of information out in the public and that's okay. But I am someone who's a believer of I'm just not into the farce. I always go to Taylor Swift, one of the biggest pop stars in the world, writes about her personal life and has such a, weirdly close relationship with her fans where she has them come to her house she's revolutionary as a pop star who made herself accessible and relatable even though her life is so not relatable to anybody else because she's so open about her stories.
And to me, that's always just a testament to, I don't buy it that like we have to look like we're cooler than anybody and rock stars. And also, if that's really what the industry dictates you have to do, it's not good for your soul or on a human level.
Like why we've had so many rock stars die of drug overdoses and incredibly ill. so I've also been in a place of being like, Oh, maybe the thing that the industry dictates is just deeply at odds with my spiritual journey in life. And that's okay too. And I have to find my way and be okay with the consequences.
But. Maybe my priority is my human spiritual journey in this world rather than My outside success, building numbers,
[00:46:51] Lydia: Totally.
[00:46:52] Laura: But I also think one thing that we are seeing even now is if you do the internal work of getting to that place of calm peace about whatever comes your way, I truly believe that your best work follows that. believe that your best writing results from that. Like if you can get to a point where you're like, dissociated from it enough that you're not.
Hung up on it the way that so many people are I do feel like this fifth record for us Is that way it's I think that these songs are the best ones we've ever written. And I think when you listen to it, you can tell that we have grown up and leveled out. And I think that there is something to be said for like youth and like volatility and passion and like the songs that result from that.
But it's also like, I wasn't happy when I wrote those four records, I wasn't happy. I wasn't content. I wasn't at peace with myself or my circumstances. And now I am.
Oh
[00:47:48] Michaela: we don't want to take any more of your time. We, we are past our hour.
[00:47:52] Aaron: it's been so lovely to talk to you guys and I hope we can actually meet each other in person one of these days. We're in Nashville a lot. So, we would
[00:48:00] Michaela: I will
[00:48:00] Aaron: Great.
[00:48:00] Laura: hit you up.
[00:48:02] Aaron: Yeah. Please do.
Laura and Lydia, thank you so much for spending your morning with us.
[00:48:06] Laura: Oh, it's been a joy. You guys are awesome. Thank you.
[00:48:08] Laura and Lydia: Thank you. All right. Take care. Bye. See ya.