Tift Merritt is a Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter and practitioner-in-residence at the Franklin Humanities Institute and Duke University, she has released records via Lost Highway, Fantasy Records, and Yep Roc Records, performed with Joan Baez and Kris Kristofferson, and had a (pre-podcast type) show on Marfa Public Radio about the artistic process and integrity, called The Spark. We talk with Tift about intentionally stepping back from touring and the full-time music industry, seeking the growing edge, surviving without social media, the fallacy of constant flowering, and a whole lot more.
Tift Merritt is a Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter and practitioner-in-residence at the Franklin Humanities Institute and Duke University, she has released records via Lost Highway, Fantasy Records, and Yep Roc Records, performed with Joan Baez and Kris Kristofferson, and had a (pre-podcast type) show on Marfa Public Radio about the artistic process and integrity, called The Spark. We talk with Tift about intentionally stepping back from touring and the full-time music industry, seeking the growing edge, surviving without social media, the fallacy of constant flowering, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and we are still just getting rolling in our third year of these conversations. And this week we're featuring our conversation with Tift Merritt.
Aaron: Tift Merritt is a great host. She's a Grammy nominated songwriter. She's been nominated for other awards like Americana Awards, whatnot. She's put out seven plus records at this point with labels such as like Lost Highway, Fantasy, Yep Rock. But touring and releasing records are not her main creative outlet anymore, though she did just recently last fall go on tour with the Mountain Goats.
But now she has really expanded her creative life. she says that she does sound and object installations and a lot of other multimedia art [00:01:00] projects.
Michaela: Yeah. In addition to singing, songwriting, art installation, she's also a writer, a writer of prose and memoir style essays. She's a practitioner in residence in collaboration with the Franklin Humanities Institute at Duke University.
And she has an archive of, I think she said 10 years of conversations, not dissimilar to the ones that we have here in her series called The Spark, talking to people like Wynton Marsalis. Roseanne Cash and Toshi Reagan about how to live a creative life.
Aaron: so as you can imagine a lot of that was the backdrop for our conversation here about expanding that creative life really being able to define your why She recalls her conversation on the spark with roseanne cash and how roseanne talked about living on the growth edge and that's like just on the edge of your knowledge and like knowing what you're doing and kind of living in that mystery gray area and how that can be really Scary, but really inspiring
Michaela: Yeah.
My biggest takeaway is just continually coming back to knowing [00:02:00] yourself as you evolve. Always checking in and making sure that you love the work you're doing, even the dirty work, as she said and coming to everything with curiosity.
Aaron: As always, some of the topics that we touch on in today's conversation came from suggestions from our Patreon subscribers.
That's because if you are a subscriber, you get advanced notice of our upcoming guests. And it gives you the opportunity to submit questions or topics that you would like them to answer. We do a lot of other cool things over there. We like to say it's a living, breathing, ever evolving, expanding community.
So if that sounds interesting to you, you can find a link below in the show notes.
Michaela: And if you are a visual person, this and all of our past conversations are available on YouTube.
Aaron: But without further ado, here is our conversation with Tiff Merritt.
Michaela: the premise of the podcast is like trying to pull the curtain back and talk about the realness.
it's funny because we started this two years ago and like one of the first YouTube comments we got was a weird guy saying that Aaron didn't have a face video.
Aaron: Yeah. Like I've, been like a, [00:03:00] you know, My whole life. Thank you. My whole life. I've been a sideman or a producer I've never like put myself forward at least on YouTube, right? And so the first batch of episodes for this show we released five of them And so all of them went on YouTube at the same time and it was within they came out at 6 o'clock in the morning and by 7 a.
m. There was a comment saying Mikayla looks great. The other guy shouldn't be on camera
Tift: I don't even. But this is why I don't fit in the modern world.
Michaela: I know, I feel the same, but I'm, progressively just gotten to like, I never wear makeup. I'm also eight months pregnant,
It's a boy. We have a three and a half year old girl.
Tift: like you guys?
Michaela: Oh yeah, we're married. We're,
Aaron: yeah, we're married. Yep. Yeah. And this is our, uh, recording studio. We're like 40 feet behind our house. And
Tift: I'm so glad the answer was yes and not. Oh no, no, no.
Michaela: yes, we're together. We live in Nashville. Aaron's a producer, musician drummer, multi instrumentalist.
I'm a singer songwriter. I'm shocked that you and I have never met because we have tons of mutual friends and I put out my last couple of records [00:04:00] with Yep Rock.
Tift: Oh, you did.
Michaela: Yeah I've moved on since
then,
Tift: Me too.
Michaela: yeah, yeah,
every time we have a guest, we ask them like, Hey, if you ever think of anybody that you think would be a great fit for this
conversation,
And Mary Chapin Carpenter, she's stayed in touch And then I got an email this summer where she was like, I think you should talk to TIFT.
Especially because she sees, I post a lot about my own journey of becoming a mother in this business and how much it's changed my career. Not for the reasons I thought it was going to, not by my own choices or my own limitations, but by others changing the way that they treated me. so she sent me your, essays that you've written and she was like, I think you should talk to TIFT.
So we're really happy to have you and thank you for agreeing to come on.
Tift: Thank you for having me.
Michaela: we always like to just start how are you today and where are you generally in your creative life
Tift: Oh, I, you know what, I am [00:05:00] harried,and just home from a big trip, and I, do the artist hustle. So I have 18 projects that need my attention right now. But you know, that's kind of a state of Wonderful, right? I mean, I have a very full life.
I am the mother to an eight and a half year old. I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, where I'm from, very close to my family here. And I feel really good about things, but part of that is because I've worked on it for a really long time. and also I really have a sort of different relationship with the music industry at this point than I did, when I first started and lived on the road and really depended on that engine to make life make sense.
And now it's a happy part of my life. And, I love to sing the rest of it. I don't really care.
Michaela: so for anybody who doesn't know who's listening, you had, You're kind of it moments you know, you've had Grammy nominations, Americana award [00:06:00] nominations, been the top of the best of lists on time and the New Yorker and all of the critical acclaim. Can you kind of share what that process has been?
You, saying that you have a different relationship with the music industry now, how that's evolved.
Tift: for a long time I was married to someone in my band everything was wrapped up in how, you know, our financial life and our life life And I was all in. I never wanted to be an artist on the side. I've always wanted to be a career artist working artist.
that's what I was for a long time. and then my marriage fell apart.
Michaela: and I kept, you know, putting out records and like, this was going to be the big one. This was going to be the big one.
Tift: And we turned A corner, we turned a corner, we just, we didn't, right. a lot of that did exactly what the industry was doing. The industry was really changing. And I have always known that, my art was really like an important linchpin in my life and kept me happy and I knew that having a childhood really blow [00:07:00] that up or change it.
And I was very worried about that. And I toured with Jean for two years and we got home. From that tour, and it's a very interesting thing to look at this little human being and go like, you know what, it was okay for me to go through all of that stuff, your life, we're not going to do that.
I'm not dragging you around for some stupid dream of mine. And that was a really hard, easy decision. If you know what I mean. Like, it was just completely self evident. And yet, I felt you know, if I had had a bus and the nannies and the blah blah blah, if I had maybe done something differently, it would have all worked and my life would look like I thought it should look.
And I've always been that the music business was sort of a narrow place for me to fit into. And so stepping out of it, my work really increased in scale. And, everybody's like, what the heck are you doing?
And, you know, I go well, I [00:08:00] make. Sound installations. I make objects installations and work in archives at a university and make weird projects there and I really try to use storytelling to make positive change in the world and, it's taken a long time, but I think I've realized trying to not make that world work for me financially or critically.
and having the freedom to not really care what anybody thinks about me and also realizing that the music business is not the most large, expansive minded place in the world and I like not living within those confines. I'm still a musician.
I've, had a record written for a while now and, we're gonna do some things again, and I'm gonna just come at it with a lot of curiosity. I mean, Is there any money in that anymore? Is there? Is there
any money in that anymore? Like, I don't know. so I, you know, I actually, I'm at a university and, that's part of it, you know, and I'm, I'm a writer and I'm a singer and I find that I really enjoy my rich life [00:09:00] and I enjoy my self propelled projects and I really enjoy not living on the road.
So
I actually have a project that's looking at technology and its effect on music and how we listen, why we listen, the algorithm, which have no financial transparency, which have no transparency, transparency, and, why it's all kind of I don't know that everybody knows the difference, right?
I want to play really human special shows. I want to make people remember what it feels like to be very vulnerable and human in this moment and how important that is. I don't know that the touring industrial complex is where that's going to happen. I mean, like, What success looks like in the music business these days doesn't really look, like success to me and my kid. Does that make sense?
Aaron: Yeah, absolutely.
Tift: And don't even get me started on social media. I got some opinions.
Aaron: Likewise, I love the idea of the touring [00:10:00] industrial complex because I think similarly, I spent years on the road as a side man, and making a living as a side man means like, I need to be on the road as much as possible. And so there's a lot of times I was flying from the end of one tour to the start of another
Tift: Yeah.
Aaron: I
think it was like, 2018. I was out of town for 270 days and my ego loved it.
Tift: Oh, yeah. No, it's such a warping business.
Aaron: so drained and so not fulfilled creatively. I was emptied. And so that's kind of when I, pulled back I was already producing and writing and making music for TV and how to at home thing that I could just throw more wood on that
Tift: Man, Send
me some TV. They will never call my ass.
Aaron: I,
I wish there was a secret. I've been having a lot of these conversations with people and it's, the same hustle as trying to get people to listen to your record just in a different direction. And it's plates you got to just spin and forget that they're spinning in a way.
Tift: I
Aaron: so I'm really intrigued by like these installations and other mediums that you're now [00:11:00] creating in. Were those part of your life? Prior, like while you
Tift: mean, I think
they were. You know, I've always written prose and I've always made other things. There was an album, Anna Something, where I was doing the podcast. You know, There have always been sort of collateral things.
And I started working on a site specific project in my hometown I mean, I love objects and birds nests and stuff like that. I've always collected stuff and then I just started. looking at the objects themselves and being like, you've seen a lot, if you had a story to tell, you know, what would you sing?
And sort of thinking about one of the things that I find is really most rewarding in songwriting is layers.
and I always want my songs to have a lot of layers there. And how do do that like in a way that's effortless, That's not overwrought and dramatic.
And I noticed that this is a good example. These are rocks. from a beach. in [00:12:00] Greece. And you can probably research what the compounds are, what the actuality is, these things actually are.
Their physical reality in this world.
And that's probably really beautiful words. Now, what is it lyrically? It's a totally different thing. This is an archive of an afternoon with somebody that I love, right? So when you just set what something actually is with what the lyric, presence is, with the spiritual presence is, there's a tension that happens.
So that's what I started to do with object exhibits and I would just put, the actuality and the, lyricism and, you know, like things have a provenance. They came from a year, they came from a factory, they came from just like us, right? then there's this larger thing.
so then I started writing songs from that or making stories from that. And then that's how I started working in archives because that's just objects and you start putting them together. I wouldn't say I'm some kind of installation artist, but I think it's nice to
have a [00:13:00] a story outside of ourselves, to ground it in real things, not just like, let me imagine how that person feels. You know, it's just nice to touch the real world.
I think there's also an element I'll speak just for myself, but an Aaron can chime in, but Obviously we're married, so we have enough conversations to know, but I think the cycle of the music business of just make an album, go on tour, make an album, go on tour, make an album, go on tour.
Michaela: For some people, they can love that and exist in that for a lifetime. For other people, that can get really boring and uninspired. And I still have the kind of claws of addiction of like, wanting to go achieve by, growing numbers, through tour, but also I physical performance and the connection, but this is my roundabout way of getting to a place of when you kind of like take that away as being The dominant thing in your life, how that then opens up these other channels of creativity and [00:14:00] other ways of thinking about creativity.
Tift: I mean, you Were talking about how things changed when you are a mother
I just think there's so much ego in the music business and in any business, let's be clear,
right?
to have people be nice to you when you have certain numbers and then not nice to you when you don't.
It's so much more about them, and they can't sing like me. Sorry, you give me a You know, I just had to kind of get to the place where like Know what my voice is about and you know, have to understand it, right?
I do But this is me. I've always had questions about Getting up on stage, being the center of attention. What are the real reasons that, we do that? How do you keep that real? How does it not become warped? And, I like being a weirdo in my little small town. my daughter was like, Mom, why am I not famous? I have so many great tricks. And I was like, you want to be famous? Really? Isn't it nice that nobody's looking?
Like, being Sexy for strangers? [00:15:00] Weird. Um, I had never as a grown up experienced, except for the few years before I was 25, you know, I lived like, 15, 17 years of my life, make a record, write a record, tour a record, make a record, write a record, tour a record. And I'm happy to be free from that. but I mean, I also realized that like I'm a dinosaur and that's okay too.
Michaela: also crazy because you're not a dinosaur,
Tift: Everybody's like, Oh, you have to social media. You know what? No, I don't. And I actually had this conversation with my manager the other day, which was We were talking about how much we love my tiny little following. I'm sure some armchair dude at a festival would look at it and be like, No, she can't play at a festival, she's not big enough.
You know what, those people actually care about me and they don't say ugly things when I say political things.
Michaela: mm hmm,
Tift: they're actually there with me. And I really think that all of the things we're talking about [00:16:00] that we don't love, Like hierarchy and competition and ego, and you're better than me and I'm, who's better than who and you know? All of that is what social media is too, right? Why would I be putting pictures of me and my family trip on there I mean, why you don't need to know, and is it gonna make you feel good about yourself? No.
Michaela: Hmm.
Tift: I think it's really a disinformation tool that hooks us in and takes our time.
It's like bad TV used to be, right? You could watch 72 hours of CSI Miami and then be like, why am I doing my life? And now it's oh, let me see what all my friends are doing and what are they wearing and how are in and it's all fake
Michaela: Well,
It's tricky because I feel like some of us don't reflect in this way.
we do, and I feel like we talk about it a lot, obviously, in these conversations, but like, I'm someone who naturally likes to share, but I always feel some levels of dis ease with social media, I see how it morphs [00:17:00] my mindset and makes me feel bad throughout the day depending on what is going on or what I saw, how much control and power it has over me.
And then when I share, I sometimes have remorse from sharing because I'll share something like A dinner out with girlfriends and then I'm like, why did I share that? Am I bragging? Am I making someone out there feel bad by saying like, look at this dinner I went to with my great girlfriends.
Tift: I think there's a professional first of all my manager does it so that I don't get sucked in But I try to say something And I try to say something real professionally, like a professional archive. And then if I am saying something personal, I hope that it's making a connection it's tricky though, right?
It's really tricky. And I wonder when it's going to become the MySpace abandoned amusement park.
Michaela: is,
Aaron: that is the exact example that Mikaela uses all the time about social media and about streaming platforms.
Tift: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Aaron: so much capital put into Spotify and so much importance of like, Oh, we gotta get this playlist and this, and it's [00:18:00] like, when is that going to go away? And then it's going to be something else.
Tift: right. And it's all, not even people doing it now. It's
like AI generated. And I don't know, I can go on and on about that.
I think there's the process of the process and then there's the process of allowing your life to have those questions too.
Michaela: Mhm.
Tift: I'm very comfortable living in the space where I'm like, I don't know what I'm making, I'm making something, I don't know what it is.
kind of like, at this point in my life, if I am too sure, that feels you know, then I need to try a little harder and take a little bit more on. It's really uncomfortable to not know what you're doing as a person, right? But, when do we?
Aaron: so this is something that you lean into intentionally?
Tift: No, it's something that I'm leaning into right now. it's just been a surprise. My life took a course that I would not have driven it to had I had the capacity, and it's just been a real surprise. You know, I really believe in like, the larger [00:19:00] sequencing that we can't see.
Aaron: this is something that really intrigues me and that have been inspired by and I guess, chasing, I guess, for a few years now of Coming from the, saying like, if you do what you've done, you're going to get what you have. And so trying to not do what I've done I normally, just habitually make this decision. happens if I make this decision? It might be something as micro as what instrument I put on a production, or it could be as macro as My approach to my day, how I start my day, how I show up for my child. Just, all of these things that it's
Tift: think asking,
Aaron: try something new
Tift: when I describe my academic work I don't think that many people in our business have the time to ask questions of the system. And I'm just a really stubborn person that I can't fake it, and so I probably always asked some questions about the system but now I work in storytelling about asking questions [00:20:00] of the system while I have practicing foot in the system as well. And I, I like that.
Michaela: Well,
I think a lot of artists especially younger artists, as so much is driven by our personalities of, you know, what type of people we are. Like you said your stumbornness, but I feel like also not asking questions of the system can come from a place of just. Desire to succeed, desire to achieve, desire to gain attention, affirmation, belonging.
I say this because I feel like this is how I was for a long time of just like the system is what it is and I hear it now from a lot of other people of like, well, if this is what I got to do, I got to do because I, want this thing.
Tift: well, I mean, I want that thing too, right? I mean, how do you define success? I always defined success as being a career artist, being a working artist, to my capacity, right? I wanted to work with a certain caliber of musicians. You don't want to play a shithole your whole life, right?
You want to use a good sound system. You [00:21:00] want The person out there to actually care about tone you're trying to make, right?
and these are things that take a certain level of success that in a lot of ways is only the 1 percent at this point, right? That seemed like a heartbreaking thing for a time for me, we all want to play old theaters. We all want to have an audience. and, have Marguerite Bow playing with us. And, you know, I don't want to go play solo shows for my whole life.
That's super boring. I think when you're young, there is a, course, you have a dream and like, what is my life missing now that I'm not singing as much? I have to remind myself that I'm a singer and I need to go do that.
Michaela: Mhm.
Tift: I just think being a nice, good person is actually the most important thing.
Michaela: Yeah, so that kind of switch is what I think I'm trying to get at of I think when you're younger, and I'll just pull from my experience of okay, I'll do whatever you got to do that I'm told you got to do to, be successful. I got to go out and play a bunch of bad shows and lose money and take a band because that's [00:22:00] going to make a bigger impression.
I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. Okay. get the support of this record label, I have to sign away ownership to my, life's work and I've got to do this and that. Okay, I'll do it. Whatever.
Because It's going to get me something.
Tift: and I think there's also like, you're a part of a team, I mean, I don't want to be like, oh, everybody's a bad person. I mean, no matter what our life's work is, we all want to like show up and do a good job and have it resonate.
Right. I'm a janitor, I want that to happen.
Michaela: I think the shift that maybe can happen for some of us is when we decide, okay, I still want that thing that I've always wanted, but now I'm not as willing to give up or do the things that I'm told I was. supposed to do. And maybe now my priority isn't success at any cost, but living aligned with my integrity or prioritizing being a good person, all these other
Tift: We're having a family, which, let's just say, this is [00:23:00] not a lifestyle that is conducive to a marriage, working, it's certainly not conducive to being a good parent. At least, what I consider being a good parent.
Michaela: Totally. And these are all things that we each have to make. So I'm curious about for your process of untethering yourself from that, did that just naturally happen from life circumstances or did you have to do? other like emotional work to let go, to grieve, all of
Tift: Well, of course.
Of course. my daughter was really a wonderful impetus for everything. yeah, I mean, I'm like crawling around in old buildings, picking up weird objects and listening to them. and the people in music business are like, what the hell are you doing? course, it was a ton of emotional work and, I think this is not isolated to the music business. The death of persona, the death of ego, I got therapy later this afternoon [00:24:00] with my Jungian therapist. I mean, All of these things are. really important parts of being human being in the world in a self way for any length of time, right?
I mean This is not just the music business. we think we're somebody and it turns out that's just a set of thoughts and we think that we have to be this. in order to justify that or that there's some, I don't know. I mean, I think there are lots of really great books about touching the parts of you that you're scared of or what happens when you lose the thing that you think glues you together or and big disappointments.
And I think that for me, what strikes me Is that It's such a hamster wheel at this point, right? Everybody's life, You're busy. I'm busy. Everybody I know can't handle their emails. People are texting. You have to get your groceries. all of it. We're all busy.
And there's this thing that you gotta hold the sky up and you gotta keep [00:25:00] doing it and you gotta keep doing it and at some point it's gonna make a difference, right? And on one hand, that's true. We all have to show up every day and keep going. But What if nothing changes?
Aren't we okay right now?
Aaron: Do you feel that now that you've I want to say made your life smaller? Inevitably, when you're releasing records and trying to be a public facing person,
Tift: Even just really, your life is large, you're covering a
Aaron: lot of the country, a lot of the world. And then when you take that and you take touring off the table and your life is your town and you are involved in your town, like you said, both politically artistically, you're teaching at a university there, like geographically now your, world is tighter, I guess would be a way to say,
I think that is true. And I do love my grounded little small town life. I still have this history of touring and friendships all over the country or living in a different country or you know, the spirit of traveling, I don't think is the same as the spirit of touring.
[00:26:00] Yeah, for me, it's energetically having your energy in all of these places that
Tift: I mean, I think that's,
Aaron: of influence.
Tift: there Is only so much of us to go around,
right?
Michaela: hmm.
Tift: But I'm not saying that we've become isolationist, I've always known that part of my life when it is big, when I am you know, to stay in Europe for a while, or if I'm going to go tour or whatever.
Part of that is because I have very strong foundations in North Carolina very feet. on the ground life here and always pretty much have. And I remember, a friend first got off the road and I was, holding myself very responsible.
they were talking about way that the tree has as many roots under the ground as it does branches and that, you know, the constant state of flowering is not
virtuous, what is the real ecosystem of that? And [00:27:00] I started thinking about it like, why are you roots? You know, We all know what it feels like to get to the point where you're like, Oh my God, I'm trying to feel this song that I've played 7, 000 times and I'm not really interested in it. it's difficult to build a life as a creative in this moment.
especially because our economy is treated like it's not a real one and content is completely devalued. I think if I were a 20 year old right now, I would get my ass to science. But, you know,
I'm lucky that have a very rigorous kind of self discipline a lot of determination and
a history here before it all fell apart. I don't want to understate that.
But I think this idea of public life, I think it's really overrated.
And that this idea of constant flowering is not. real. And it's not a way to live. And it's not a way to [00:28:00] pretend to live.
Michaela: I'm curious because you had this, spark where you had conversations with other creatives how those conversations deepened your belief system because I think
Tift: it has really solidified my belief of, yeah, our creativity is not constantly flowering. and the public persona, career business aspect is separate from. are, artistic creative seasons and trying to hold both. I'm curious what conversations you've had with lifelong artists how that's influenced and shaped your belief system.
that's a great question. And I mean, I started this part because I was really lonely on the road.
And I was like, I Not having the conversations that I thought I would be having as an artist. I really was like, how could I use this traveling as a vehicle to go find people that I really wanted to talk to about this conversation that I'm not [00:29:00] having and I'm not seeing anywhere, which is how do you really build a life as an artist and how do you have integrity over time and how do you get better in a way that isn't just
overwhelming it, right? How do you really grow and I learned a lot of different things from a lot of different people. and I was always trying to talk to artists in other mediums. I didn't want to talk to musicians because I knew what those problems were. I mean one of my favorite things was when I, I talked with Roseanne Cash and, asked her how to really, grow authentically.
And she's like, oh, you're talking about the growing edge. And I was like, what's the growing edge? And she said well, it's like that compulsion to go to this kind of dangerous edge of what you know. And I thought, oh my God, that's such powerful knowledge. That's such powerful language because you are attracted to.
The edge of what you know, and that's actually a healthy thing, right? That's not being self destructive. That's like have an impulse and I need to follow it. lot of the people that I talked to were older and [00:30:00] they you know, they were probably like me now and like at a certain point, If you really care what everybody thinks, you're not doing it right.
And I think there is, of course, you want your career to work and you want to not be making best work when you, are 80 and there's no money and you can't afford to do it and nobody hears it. But
we're Americans, we live in the richest country in the world, we have water, we are, so lucky. Everybody's, my kids here, my family's here, it's just you asked me what I learned and I think it's just that this is all a process and we have to trust it at some point. and we have to trust it beyond like this is just, I'm not cool enough. I've failed. And, honestly our dedication to it has to be greater than just give me the rewards of fame. I mean, What the fuck is fame?
Michaela: Well,
It's so interesting to me because it's such a scale. So I do a lot of songwriting coaching and whenever people apply to work with me, I always tell [00:31:00] them I offer absolutely no music business help. Like, I will talk to you about like how to record or whatever, but I'm not, you're in to like getting your song somewhere.
Like I have no interest in this. My approach as a songwriting coach is the craft as well as the emotional and spiritual path of creating songs and along the way, it always comes back to, we can't help it as humans. We're looking for belonging and approval. And inevitably it comes up for every single student of, is what I'm making worthy?
Is it good enough? If I'm not getting the response, I'm. Looking for and I just had a long conversation with a student about this and he asked me he was like I'm just wondering like is anyone gonna tell me the truth and I was like well, what's the truth?
Tift: Also, let's just be clear. You have to be your own best editor. You have to tell yourself the truth. if we're not there, we're not anywhere.
Michaela: he went a step further and he was like will you ever tell me this [00:32:00] song is absolute shit and I said to him, I was like, I will never tell you that a song of yours is shit. I was like, have you brought me songs? And every time do I tell you how wonderful they are? No. I was like, that doesn't happen.
I was like, do I go through your song, comb through it and say, let's look at this line. Let's talk about this. Let's do I give you criticism and feedback? Yes. But why would I never tell you that your song is shit? Because who gets to say that? There are people who have billions of streams and success.
There are people like Taylor Swift, who billions of people think is a genius. And there are still people out there who trash Taylor Swift's writing. So my point is these creative endeavors that we have, I think is a, human compulsion that we all have the ability and the need to create and make meaning, but we've gotten messed up along the way of thinking that's our ticket to being told that we're good enough. And when we bring in a career and finances and all of that stuff, it can [00:33:00] be even harder.
Tift: Absolutely. That is so much pressure on a person
when it's actually going. And then it's so much pressure on an outcome when it's not going like I have to have this. This has to work. This is nothing has to work, right?
I think this all gives way to really knowing your why.
And I think that is a really important Conversation to be having with yourself about life and your belonging as a human, but also as your process and your creativity.
Like, You've got to know what your why is. And if your why is, I want to go play stadiums and be famous and make a bunch of money, then you need to enact that creativity in a certain way. I wish that I knew how to do that. that's not in my DNA and that's not what I want, But I think knowing your why and then being happily surprised by anything else is a [00:34:00] really good thing, right?
I want to put love in the world. I want to make the world better for my daughter. I want to keep hearts open. And tell stories that bring us together And that's what I try to show up and do.
Aaron: you find that consistent between your current creative life and your creative life while you were exclusively touring and releasing records, or is that something that's evolved now that you're
Tift: I mean, I,
I, think that that's something that I've thought a lot about, you know, like we all had the pandemic and I think being a mother makes things really clear. I mean, if I had Said that to somebody in my career at certain points, they would've laughed me out the door. and I don't doubt that I was the same person that I am now, that I was then, but there was a lot to navigate.
Right? And there's still a lot to navigate. It's just a little bit different, but. Yes, when I went on stage, did I want to put love in the world? Absolutely. Was I taking the [00:35:00] creative limitations and the things that I came up against, which were really inherent in just being a touring musician, was I taking all of that very personally? Absolutely. Was I feeling like it was my failure?
Absolutely. I feel lucky to have put a lot of time into something and have learned a lot about it and maybe have the chance to reflect on it. But I, definitely, don't think that I would, want my why to ever be, I want to look cool on my Instagram and have a bunch of followers.
There's probably places in the music industry where that community exists, right? And I also think all of these problems are human problems, not just musician problems.
Michaela: A hundred percent. Yeah.
Tift: I think your motivations are really Your own responsibility?
Michaela: Yeah, and I think it's interesting that knowing your why evolves over time, right?
Tift: For
sure.
Michaela: our why is different at 25 when we're single without a family [00:36:00] versus 35, 45, 55. And it's interesting you said, knowing your why, cause I was, writing and reflecting on my conversation with my student and my approach to teaching and, I wrote specifically like, I don't think of my job as a. Songwriting coach or instructor as to teach someone how to write a song, but there's all these other layers to it. And one of them is to help people continually explore and understand what their why is, because the more we know what our why is for ourselves, the less we let outside sources tell us what that why should be.
Tift: maybe we're strong enough to be in conversation with that in a way that doesn't shake foundations.
a, There's a healthy permeable kind of membrane.
Michaela: Yeah. If we're not grounded in for example if someone goes into this saying, okay, my why is. I want to, share love through art and I get on this path and then I'm being told [00:37:00] by all these forces that are helping me like, no, actually what you need to be doing is putting all your time and energy into building your social media profile to amass followers.
It can be very easy because they're all intertwined, right?
Tift: Yeah. I mean, I also think one healthy thing to do is to cause we all have to do shit we don't want to do. It doesn't matter what our job is. Or we don't have to talk to somebody who doesn't you know, who wants to tell us who we are rather than ask us. I would just say creative limitations are always a good thing, right?
This is what you have to work with. Is there a way you can make it part of your practice that feels authentic? Whatever it is that you're supposed to do. No, I'm not saying something that feels like you can't do it, but think the, how we do things is as important as, to reflect the why, right?
So if somebody's saying, Oh, you got to do, go do all this stuff. And I just went on a tour recently and I was like, no, I don't want to go do that. I do not want to go do that. my manager's like, you need to do [00:38:00] this. And she never does that to me.
Michaela: Uh huh.
Huh.
Tift: and remembered that being on tour is so much easier than being a mom. I just drank beer and bus till like 10. 30. What? So, I don't want to end on, that note. But I think that, we all have to figure out how to make the dirty work of our lives happy, right? We've got to whistle while we work, I don't want it to. Be like, Oh, it's all going to be easy.
And we're going to like open and give love in the world. And you know, like you got to go do the work, and you have to love the work. I wasn't teaching songwriting, but people used to write me emails and be like, Oh, my nephew is so talented. Can you tell me where the secret door is?
And I'm like, You know, or what moment did you know you were successful?
Aaron: Let you know when I get there.
Tift: Yeah, right? I mean, This is all a process of [00:39:00] showing up every day. And if you're not happy, change it. Or self reflect on what's not making you happy. But if you can love the work that you're doing and the work of living, and you can belong to something more important than your social media followers, that's a good life.
Aaron: Absolutely.
Tift: we will let you go because we know we're at an hour, but we like to ask one last
Michaela: question
Aaron: we kind of toggle back and forth and take turns on who gets to ask the final question.
So one that I like to ask is, I would love to hear some kind of nugget of wisdom that somebody shared with you. that was like, opened you up or really just shifted your paradigm.
Tift: Shifting my paradigm. I Had a really wonderful mentor when I was a creative writing student. And I remember, I admired her so much. Her name was Doris Betts. she was one of those people that, I mean, she was a really wonderful community member. She was a mother. She raised horses.
She was the head of this creative writing department. And then she would do [00:40:00] her third shift and write, you know, after she put her kids to bed when she was younger. she modeled that don't get to behave badly because you're an artist, right? There's not an artist set of behaviors. and I think Eudora Welty is someone like that as well. Like, always loved thinking about her living her very unusual life in this tiny little town in Mississippi. Modeling that you don't get a shortcut morally because you're an artist. And It wasn't something she imparted on me, but I was always trying to quit college.
I did not want to stay in college. I did not think anyone could teach me how to be a good artist. And that's true and not true, right? It's both. But I remember I would always be like, okay, I've got to ask her this big question. I always got to ask her this big question. And I would get my guts up and I would be about to ask her.
And then I knew I couldn't ask her because I knew the answer was that I had to figure out how to answer my own questions. And somehow [00:41:00] her tough kind of integrity, just her presence taught me that. When I talk about being your own best editor, she taught me that. I remember being 22 and being like, Oh, I gotta figure it out for myself.
Aaron: Yeah.
Tift: that was a great gift she gave me.
Aaron: I love
Michaela: Beautiful.
Aaron: Well, Tiff, thank you so much for making
Tift: Hey, if you guys are in
All right.
Much love, big hug!
Aaron: All right. Bye.
Michaela: Thank you.