The Other 22 Hours

Tim Easton on dreaming out loud, remaining teachable, and Alaska.

Episode Summary

Tim Easton has released over 13 solo records, 4+ with his bands (Haynes Boys, Freelan Barons, Easton Stagger Phillips), appeared on records by Lucinda Williams, Cory Branan, Otis Gibbs and more, worked with EMI publishing and New West Records, busked through most of Europe, and worked with musicians such as Mike Campbell, Jim Keltner, Tift Merrit and Greg Leisz. We talk to Tim about remaining teachable, turning a passion for fishing in the Alaskan frontier into a solid touring scene, harmonizing to the ABC's in the car with his daughter, boundaries, dreaming out loud, and a whole lot more.

Episode Notes

Tim Easton has released over 13 solo records, 4+ with his bands (Haynes Boys, Freelan Barons, Easton Stagger Phillips), appeared on records by Lucinda Williams, Cory Branan, Otis Gibbs and more, worked with EMI publishing and New West Records, busked through most of Europe, and worked with musicians such as Mike Campbell, Jim Keltner, Tift Merrit and Greg Leisz. We talk to Tim about remaining teachable, turning a passion for fishing in the Alaskan frontier into a solid touring scene, harmonizing to the ABC's in the car with his daughter, boundaries, dreaming out loud, and a whole lot more.

Get more access and support this show by subscribing to our Patreon, right here.

Links:

Click here to watch this conversation on YouTube.

Social Media:

All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

Episode Transcription

Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.

[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and this is our second year of the podcast. We're so happy to still be here and happy you're here listening.

[00:00:19] Aaron: Yeah, for those of you that have already listened to an episode of the show and know that you enjoy it.

Welcome back We have a few simple asks for you guys before we jump into the episode It takes a lot to produce even a small show like ours And so we like to lean on you guys to help grow it because the more it grows the more guests we can get and The more ideas we can share back The first one and the easiest one is to just hit subscribe on your listening platform of choice or on YouTube It's just a great way if somebody's browsing to know that our show is worth like 45 minutes of their time the second one would be to take your favorite episode and share it word of mouth It's the best way to spread this show and it's probably the way you heard about it.

So if you know somebody In your circle that about our show and could benefit from it Just pass along your favorite episode to them and see what they think. Lastly is on a more financial end streaming podcasts pays absolutely 0. And so with that, we've decided to start a Patreon.

there's a link below in the show notes. We offer all the normal Patreon stuff. We offer advanced notice of our guests so that you can have your questions answered directly by them. We have cool, like weekly discussions on Patreon. All the stuff that we talked about in this show and as a normal creative career does, it is always growing and evolving and changing.

So that intrigues you. There is a link below in the show notes.

[00:01:42] Michaela: And one of the things we really pride ourselves on in this podcast is that we are not music journalists. We are musicians ourselves. So we think of these less as interviews and more like conversations where we're able to relate and have really honest conversations about the realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art,

[00:02:02] Aaron: which as we all know, is an exercise in things being outside of our control.

And so we like to focus the conversations on what is within our control, being our mindsets and our headspace and the tools that we've found to stay sane. During this whole thing and we've boiled that down to the question what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity and today we got to ask that question of Tim Easton

[00:02:26] Michaela: Tim lives here in Nashville, Tennessee. He's originally from Ohio. He started his career back in the 90s and he's had a range of experiences with major publishing deals with EMI, record deals with New West, starting his own label, self releasing. He has been kind of a one man troubadour for record labels.

30 plus years? Am I doing my math correctly?

[00:02:51] Aaron: He started his own label in 1998, which is before I know anybody else trying to start their own label.

[00:02:56] Michaela: yeah, we didn't even get to that kind of stuff. This conversation was definitely much more kind of life centric and building a life around

non musical goals of where he wants to be in the world and using music as a conduit of sorts to encompass and subsidize both.

[00:03:14] Aaron: Yeah, the thing that, rang in my head throughout the conversation was, embodying the sentence living the dream and how living inherently means when you're in your dream and living your dream, it's a process and it's ongoing and you're constantly doing that.

And, there's a lot of talk about loving your work and Remaining teachable which, if you've heard an episode before, I love thinking about that. Zen mind, beginner's mind, and however you want to say it. I just have to share a little anecdote about Tim because he's like one of our guests earlier this season, Steve Pultz, where if you've met Tim, you remember it And Tim was my first gig in Nashville that wasn't with Michaela. It was during Americana Fest and, Our first guest ever on this show, Aaron Lee Tazjan, is a long time friend uh, of Tim Easton. also from Ohio And he was in the band. And Tim sent me 12 songs. He's like, here's what we're gonna play. Me being a diligent student, fresh off the boat from New York City Nashville, I'm like I'm, I'm going to do it.

And I learn the hell out of the songs and showed up like ready to go. I was like, This is it. I'm going to plant my flag and show up and we didn't rehearse. Tim didn't call any of the songs. We played 12 songs I had never heard before in front of a big audience outside at Fond Object in East Nashville.

Rest in peace. Rest in peace. And. I sweat profusely the entire time and I brought up to Tim after he's like, Oh man, I'm so sorry. We had a gig later that evening, a second gig of the day. He's like, man well, now, you know, like 20 songs. So we're good. I'll make sure I call songs that, you know, show up at the next gig.

it's me and Tim at the gig. And he hires Hags, a local favorite bass player in town in the parking lot before the show who had never played Tim's music. And Tim proceeds to call none of the songs that I know. He calls 10 other songs that I had never heard before and Hags had never heard.

He just got hired in the parking lot. So that gives you idea of the depth of Tim's songs

[00:04:58] Michaela: metaphor for his life and

[00:05:00] Aaron: a metaphor for his life. And it was wonderful and amazing. And Tim is also one of those guys that can just show up and play a song with a guitar. And keep an audience in rapid tension the whole time.

He's like a storyteller, a great human. And that's all on display here in this conversation. So without further ado, here's our conversation with Tim Easton.

[00:05:18] Michaela: let's preface all this discussion about what I do with my other 22 hours of my life Like I have the, obligatory guitar on the wall there. I must say I'm basically a bachelor is why I probably appear to be a workaholic amongst a lot of people.

[00:05:33] Tim: the other thing would be like, no, I actually am a workaholic and I got up this morning. unusual day, but I took Ellington to school today. So I got up at five, something. right when I got back here, before we even started today, I was, I started getting into, song stuff or whatever, cause I'm going to go in the studio with these guys. I have to say part of my life as a single man, single dad, my kid's mom. an amazing husband. I love him. We're all close. We're all friends. that makes my life way more easier than your average, dad at work.

And so way more able to just get some creative work done, I guess, in the day.

Yeah.

[00:06:09] Michaela: Yeah, how is that different? Because I was thinking about, you saying that Ellington is turning 14. So, We met you when we moved to town. I met you at Folk Alliance. I will always remember it because we met in a hot

[00:06:21] Tim: Yep.

[00:06:22] Michaela: and then we came here, and I remember coming to your house because I think you invited me to play the bluebird with you, and we came over.

[00:06:28] Tim: Right.

[00:06:29] Michaela: was like four, and you were married at the time to her mother,

how has that, changed when you were a family unit and you're, parenting is 24 seven or maybe it wasn't but you're like in the same house with your co parent, how has that changed your relationship to your work and how much do you think you've refilled your time once you're presented with more time alone?

work.

[00:06:53] Tim: Yeah, I was, uh, yeah, I was,the pandemic came along and that shifted a lot of things with all of us. I spent the majority of that time right here on this couch, went through a divorce like seven years ago. And then. lived a little bit on my own, but was trying to be really close to Ellington and her mom, regardless of everything, you know, I kind of, figured it out that I was like, okay, I need to get my mental health in order and be a good responsible dad.

I like to create and as part of who I am and I feel Pushing that away would also feel awkward, pushing that creativity thing away. So I basically set a schedule in my mind. Like I would work, an hour a day on writing or something like that.

Not outrageous amount, but like, if you pick a small amount, I still believe that today. Like, David Sedaris talks about it. he gets up every morning and writes for 30 minutes. And that seems like such a small, amount of time until you're a parent or just like a normal

human being. You're like, whoa, it's a lot.

Yeah, it's a lot of work, you not just even being a parent, just being a human being things happen if you have a job. And it's a lot of work even meditate for 15 minutes or whatever we all are supposed to do, you know, So I learned early to try to set those boundaries with partner who's an ex partner and then my daughter who's always, strong.

but like, yeah, we talk about it. We like, I'm going to take these 15 minutes or I'm going to take this half an hour. I'm going to try to read or write or do something. And early on got those kind of boundaries in place and it could appear to be a little selfish sometimes, the boundary setting.

But it also is healthy for think everybody. I'm sure you guys have your own way of doing it. You know, it's like

I need some time and I think it's important and not everybody gets to do that. I realize that, that not everybody is able to set those boundaries and sometimes they sting a little bit when you set them.

that's how you know they're effective, really.

I've tried to stick to that. In a long answer to it 24 hours a day, eight hours for sleep. If you're lucky, I'm sure we're not always sleep in eight hours. Okay. Let's say six hours, roughly

six to, you know,

five. Yeah.

[00:09:03] Michaela: I'm sleeping eight hours a night. I'm gonna be in for a rude awakening come January, but

[00:09:08] Tim: Well, you know, yeah. I'm so proud of you guys. You guys are amazing. I really, it's so, yeah, so if you're sleeping eight hours or six or eight and then you're working eight hours or whatever it is for, that leaves eight hours roughly for play or getting to and from meals. And there's a lot of work.

I understand that. But a 24 hour day, I try to like find at least one solid hour of creative output. and That's something I learned from. Poets from way back I went to Ohio State, you know, in the eighties. I learned that from a poem. It was like an Irish poem I work eight hours, I sleep eight hours at leave eight hours for play And I remember that had an impact on me. I was like, Oh, okay. I can find 15 minutes or 30 minutes to work on a haiku or something, I try to stick to that.

[00:09:56] Aaron: you mentioned in there boundaries having can feel selfish and can definitely be selfish concur with that and feel like that. And I think there's also, this, stereotype of the absent father.

so when you are taking time to set boundaries for yourself and carve out time for yourself, which is important, it can, subliminally. As another father feel very selfish and I don't want to try to anywhere near being You know an absent father or

[00:10:20] Tim: Right.

[00:10:21] Aaron: I think in reality and what I try to remind myself is It's really good for my kid to see me prioritize self care prioritize things that are just fun for myself, which

[00:10:30] Tim: Yeah.

[00:10:30] Aaron: You know, i'm not awesome at I hide behind it under the guise of like work, I have to work

which I'm lucky as you are, as we all are that my creativity is my work which has its own set of baggage.

[00:10:41] Tim: Yeah. No, I know. We all know that. We all,

I think it's important for your child to see you follow your dreams

too. I have been gone the road a lot. And this year has been a really wild one for me. and a great one too, for making a living and stuff.

And for travel and interesting stuff. But I also, you know, So, now that she's getting older, I involve her in some of these trips. Like, I've taken Ellington to Alaska, and we're going to go to New Orleans later on. involve her in stuff, and so does her mom. Her mom takes her on journeys, and that's a part of our life together.

But there have been times when, I have been away for like the first day of school, or something like that, it doesn't feel great, to be

honest, but the modern technology FaceTime

Mm

is no substitute for parenthood, of course, but if you notice working parents doing jobs like nine to five jobs and stuff, they're gone all day.

come back and then they're just wiped out. And, I don't know what your relationship was like with your folks. I picture the both of you having amazing parents and role models. I'm really lucky. I had a great mom and dad, but I don't think back in my therapy of now, thinking of childhood trauma I don't think back about Oh, my parents didn't spend enough time with me or they didn't give me enough guidance I was lucky that I was the youngest of seven. So My sisters kind of raised me in their own way. feel like us creative parents, sometimes we get to spend a lot more time

. With toddlers and, young children in really cool times of their lives, you know, I've already got the 14 year old that's, she's turning 14 this week, actually. that is already like the car discussion is already gone a lot of would you rather question answer things to total silence and she's on her phone and she's talking to someone or she's, checking something out.

[00:12:21] Tim: So that is pretty recent and it's not great. I think that 20 minutes in the car with her from school or whatever.

Greatest day, part of the day by

far

better than Any gig even, it's amazing. so I look forward to that, so if she's doing that, I'll say like, Hey, play me a song that you're into.

Mm Um, And then I'll play her a song we're swapping songs now and that has been incredible.

[00:12:46] Michaela: We're just starting to get that Georgia's three and she just started at her little preschool this week it's like a 20 minute drive and I'm asking her like, so me what your favorite part of the day was and like, now I'm getting Oh, I colored a picture and I used all the colors of the rainbow, even black, but black's not in the rainbow, but it should be in the rainbow.

And like,

[00:13:05] Tim: Yeah.

[00:13:05] Michaela: like, Oh, this is amazing.

[00:13:06] Tim: Yeah.

[00:13:07] Michaela: All these little details, but I want to go back to the boundary thing and like how especially when we're creatives and self employed and also people who have full time jobs that aren't, quote unquote creative.

cause I do a lot of songwriting coaching and I work with so many people who have chosen other career paths and feel like, but I need creativity in my life How do I create the space and time when I have a full time corporate job and kids? And, so I do a lot of like tedious work of where can we find five minutes of your day?

And is it selfish? Are you taking away from your children by being like, Hey, sweetie, mommy's going to take 10 minutes to do a little writing right here. like you're exampling to them how to live a life that you believe in. And if we believe that we need these things, you know, we talk about boundaries and that's such like a popular word also now like in pop

[00:14:03] Tim: Yeah.

[00:14:03] Michaela: and therapy And there's a little. trickiness of when you set a boundary and you make it somebody else's issue versus when you set a boundary and it's your responsibility to keep that boundary, but it's not I'm putting it on someone in my life this is my boundary and you need to figure out how to,

[00:14:21] Tim: Yeah.

[00:14:22] Michaela: I don't think is the right approach and this shifts all the time for us with Georgia of We're better parents when we get to exercise and get to have a little bit of time or journaling. Erin wakes up before all of us to be able to carve that time out. I can't right now because I am really bad at waking up early and also I'm pregnant and exhausted.

So but We explain it to Georgia, like she knows when she wakes up, if her dad's out that he's running most of the time he's back and waking her up like this morning, I try to do like a five minute guided meditation, even before I get out of bed. It's not ideal. Ideally, I would wake up and like drink some water and use the bathroom and go like, sit somewhere and do like 15 minutes.

But Right now, what I have is just five minutes, turn my phone on and listen to a guided meditation. And sometimes she comes in and interrupts me. this morning, she was like, Hi mom, you doing? I'm like, Oh, mommy's meditating. Um, Do you want to listen with me? She's like, okay. And she comes and gets in bed and she lays her head on my tummy.

And she was like, I'm laying my head on the baby. I'm like, okay, great. Obviously, this is not ideal meditation practice, but it's what I have. And she's also seeing it. And then she got bored after a minute. She's like, I'm going to go help dad with breakfast. I'm like, great. but thinking back of how we all wrestle with these things What do we sacrifice in ourselves and what do we make time for?

And I grew up watching my mom do workout videos I have a vivid memory of seeing her sitting cross legged on a bed and doing this yoga breathing and meditative practices. And that, Exampled for me of, oh, this is an essential part of taking care of yourself. We all learn how to do this, versus if I had a mom who let her health go completely because she felt like taking any moment away from us was detrimental, I think that would have been

[00:16:17] Tim: Yeah, gosh we're so lucky really that we even get to have these discussions. it's important that when you're doing something with anybody, not just your child, that you're actually there and you're like paying attention

Because there's a lot going on in life and you can't. I don't want to anybody cause there's a lot going on there's some intense stuff in the world and it's easy to be distracted today so much.

I don't know if the boundaries I set were like, you got to deal with it as much as it was like nice, calm discussions about it. You know, Lucky I had those guidance in my sisters and brothers a little bit of like, yeah, therapy and wellness and like recovery and stuff like that living this way did not work for me.

Okay. I didn't have enough time. I was always complaining about being tired or exhausted. And that happens in life. So I learned early on like, Hey, let's, discuss. What's going to make us when I may say us, like my kids, mom and everybody like make us be happier, I think happiness is the thing that we have to be concerned about with each other, with someone else, with your partner, with your family. if you're not happy, all this other stuff is difficult. So I think it's okay to say what makes you happy and what makes you stressed out and what might really clog you up and prevent you from getting any work done at all. I feel really lucky that we get to have these discussions cause like we know there's a lot of people in the world with some serious problems right now that

are not even able to consider this kind of stuff I don't think I went through my twenties thinking like that. And you guys are younger parents than I ever was. I was out running around the world, busking, you know, for seven years before I even got into a serious enough relationship to have a kid.

[00:17:54] Aaron: One thing I've admired about you is how DIY you've been, how self, contained you've been with the way you release records, with the way you run everything and the type of touring that you do. do you have boundaries between that kind of business The inherent, and tasks that we have put money in our bank account and the creative stuff you know, in a way you can look at the actual act of creativity as a child in that sense.

the work is the endless emails and booking flights and renting cars and whatever it might be.

[00:18:26] Tim: Yeah, are you setting boundaries on our boundaries discussion?

[00:18:29] Aaron: Yeah, we're going level

[00:18:31] Tim: yeah, no, it's good. It's much needed, I'm forever in this remain teachable vibe and I learned that from a guy named Tom Mason passed away this week and you might have seen some discussion about him online.

He was a remarkable man. his music career was he was a pirate. He one out and performed pirate stuff with him.

[00:18:48] Aaron: pirate

[00:18:49] Tim: Yeah, Yeah. He dressed as a pirate and went to the Caribbean. He went to Megan Palmer worked with him for a little bit.

And try to hold onto that. I don't have a manager. I have a booking agent. and I have a guy that helps me put out my records, but I still feel like the quarterback

character that is trying to impose my will that's where it gets dangerous, right?

We're like, I need you to do this. I need you to do that. I don't know. And so I'm trying to. And have gotten way better over, the last 10 years of really being understanding and accepting of other people's time and we all have stuff we want to do. And, you know, what a crazy business that we're involved in.

Like The creativity part I love the business part can go to it. It's a bummer. And even begin to start to discuss it. That's why I like what you guys do with this podcast. it is about the reality of a creative life.

It, you're not just like Andy Warhol, just painting all damn day and just whatever. It's not a constant creative thing. There's life to live and there's utilities to think about and music is free now.

So I have to go travel and play. And there's a lot of pressure and I try not to like push that pressure out on my booking agent. I would love to have a manager. I would love to be a hair less. D I Y about it? I would gladly hand over a meager percentage of what I already make, which I just, it's going to take a little side here.

I have a friend who plays drums in a very successful band and he's a society. So he's a hired man. And he said, I basically make the same as a school janitor. That's what I get for the year. And he didn't mean to be cruel

But he was just talking about I'm not making a hundred grand a year.

I'm making like 45 to 50 grand, you know,

but he has a wife and a child too. And. he's successful. He's kicking ass and it's like there's no point where you're like, Oh I'm comfy now.

it's always seems like a hustle. So I always feel like I don't want to sweat other people with my hustle. So I try to be really careful with those emails and with all that stuff. I've, stepped on people's toes. Even talking to you guys a long time ago about doing this.

It just so happened to be that I was putting out a record, but really, I don't expect anything I think from anybody more. I just, I write and I said, be interested in doing something. And if it doesn't happen, I can't like sit there and hold anything personal

anymore I'm trying to be really grateful for what is happening, which is quite a bit actually. When I break it down to other people, it probably seems like I'm insane. Like how much stuff I do.

[00:21:19] Michaela: or be involved. it can always be a line between feeling like skeezy, like you're always asking people for stuff, but also just genuinely wanting to be. Okay. A part of something and I now have like a deeper understanding people who might reach out to me and say like, Hey, I'd love to be on. I'm like, great. And if I don't book that person for six months or something, it's not because no, we don't want that person. There's so many other variables of like timing and trying to have a range of guests of diversity of experience, of gender, of race, like there's so many other factors I now also have to remember it's never personal, but we are sensitive beings. So we think it's personal, So this is a shout out to anybody who's reached out to me to come on this podcast. If I haven't booked you yet, it's not personal.

It's timing. Yeah.

[00:22:18] Aaron: I'd also like to point out I'm now coming to the age and having been at for two decades that, I used to, my younger days, think of, an ask or a reach or something like, a match and,

[00:22:28] Tim: yeah.

[00:22:29] Aaron: a light right now and it's, that's it, it's more like farming you ask and it's planting a seed and it needs to get watered and, Maybe in five years it's going to grow into something and make delicious apples, but nothing's wasted basically.

[00:22:44] Tim: I'm not sure who pointed this out. I don't know if it was a Japanese philosophy about when you go to sit to talk to someone about business, that's not the first thing you discuss. The first thing you discuss is, how are you doing or your family or what's going on with you before you get into the bolts it doesn't always work like that. I've worked with some people in this business they get on the phone and it's like shop talk, right? You're going right into it and then they don't even say goodbye.

They're just gone. You're just like, Whoa, you're like, yeah. And, face it, like all of the people that are kicking the most ass in this business are pretty intense people. Like they're, you know, , they're like really like, Like all the great managers, all the great booking agents, and then some of the artists too, they might be sweet at one moment, but when it gets down to it, man, it's like chop chop, chop, chop, chop. I've seen it happen. And it makes some of us just run screaming. We're like, I can't do this. I feel icky, you know, all the time.

And in a way, this folk music connection or whatever you want to call it, us meeting years ago and crossing paths I have had so many podcasts in my mind starting. And then Otis Gibbs was like, I'm telling you right now, it's a lot more work than you think it is.

 

[00:23:57] Tim: It is.

[00:23:59] Michaela: about it before we got on with you of like managing

[00:24:02] Tim: I bet. I bet. Well, I want to make it fun for you guys.

I want you to find happiness and joy in what you do because it's important. If we don't like our work, it's eight hours of our day or something, people that don't enjoy their jobs are pretty much bummed out.

It's hard to be a good parent and that if you're not into the thing that brings home the bacon or whatever you want to call it. and enjoying work I find to be an important thing also to teach kiddos and in songwriting, when I go around and doing these workshops and stuff, which I love to do, finding I'm loving teaching

A lot more.

Maybe that's just something when you grow into it like I have something to teach now

hmm.

about, Either experience or indoor,whatever it is I want to, talk to, burgeoning songwriters about, I can now,

Although I just had a recent experience that wasn't positive in the teaching experience, It's weird because like songwriting is a thing that you can't really teach someone,

tell the whole class like, Hey, we're all gonna get on a airplane and we're gonna go to Madrid, and then you have to bust your way home and then you'll be a songwriter. You know, Like it is really hard to teach, you know, we can't, you can't, do that, you know, you have to be realistic.

It's been a fascinating Thing like moving into the teaching world and I'm looking for some more

[00:25:16] Aaron: Is that a more recent thing for you?

[00:25:18] Tim: Yeah, I started doing it in Alaska. I just have this thing about my life, which I Tell others it's like a dream out loud. I'm like, I want to go play in Alaska. So I started writing about Alaska and I wore an Alaska shirt on the cover of the record. And I ended up going up there a lot I didn't go up there for financial gain.

I went up there for kind of a spiritual thing, you know, like, into nature and fishing. I believe strongly in that, And then it turned out, there's house concerts and that led to this. So now it's more than just, for me, There's a lot of great musicians up there that could give a damn about the business, you know, they just like to

play. And so that, folk world up there is really powerful. I ended up doing that. And then met an arts council person up there and over a couple of years, I was like, what if we did a songwriting workshop?

you know, You started to hear about different people doing it and then I can't command the fees or whatever that Rodney Crowell or something, you know,

I

can't kind of bring that

loot in, but I can get like six people in a small town in Alaska and it's like, oh,

then I, it's a win win for me because I get to be in Alaska in the same spot for five days, go fishing, break bread, eat, meals with these people and maybe actually learn to be creative together.

And then I like to put a show on at the end where I. play a set and then I back up the students on the new songs they wrote we play them together for the town. And so I've, yeah, I've kind of part of it was watching other people give workshops and part of it was like what kind of workshop do I want to give?

And I do that with a lot of things now. Like I really want to go to Chile. I'm trying to figure, out some arts council connection where I can. basically getting it subsidized is what I'm trying

to say, like,

[00:26:49] Aaron: we used to joke around that we were writing a book on tacking vacations onto the end of tours.

[00:26:53] Tim: yeah,

[00:26:53] Aaron: Yeah. You know.

[00:26:55] Michaela: I mean, we have these conversations all the time. I was just talking to a friend last night about different work decisions of like money is not our determining factor, case in point, this podcast, like we do not make a penny on this podcast.

we hope someday to, and we have a bigger vision, but there's so many other reasons to do things in life than just what's my bottom line While being responsible, right? Especially if you're raising children, we have needs that need to be met. But like, there's other things to determine. How much time do I have?

What do we get out of something like this podcast? We get to have really nurturing conversations with people that we've known for years or people that we're just meeting, but either way. It feels so much more than just going to the bar and talking shop with people of like, what's our recent schedule and also just like the feedback we get from people where in our tiny little corner, we feel like we're doing something radical by talking about All the stuff that we keep secret in

[00:27:56] Tim: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:27:57] Michaela: like, what's the reality?

you see it more and more. I'm going to mispronounce her name. It's just, I feel like I'm such a grandma, but Chapel Roan.

[00:28:05] Tim: Hmm.

[00:28:06] Michaela: It's pretty radical that she's this like new major pop star and she's coming out talking very vulnerably and honestly about the hardship of fame and fast fame.

you know, you want to like be like, wait. You guys have nothing to complain about because you're famous, which means all your dreams are coming true and what we're trying to do is be like, there's so much more to life than these kind of superficial ideas and surface level ideas of what we think success is and trying to have those more nuanced, deeper conversations.

And also the pros and cons of having massive level success versus that it is possible to have a life that's built on creativity and Maybe you're not hugely known, but that actually might suit some of us a lot better. Definitely learned that suits my personality a lot better. yeah,

[00:29:00] Tim: Yeah. You find your pocket of people.

[00:29:02] Michaela: Yeah. And you're finding ways also. It's not just how can I sell as many records as possible? It's like, how can I do the thing I want to do in life? Afford it with this other incentive of like, I want to travel, so I'm going to try and subsidize it through my, music and get to have this experience of music versus going to get a job where I'm going to make enough money and have vacation time and be able to go to Chile that way.

It's just different approaches. I had a tour last summer, To Europe?

we were all gonna go, Aaron was gonna come and drive, and take care of Georgia, had a festival that was the anchor date that was gonna for

[00:29:40] Tim: Oh, I remember this.

[00:29:41] Michaela: had these other shows, and Ten days before the tour started, the festival announced they were bankrupt and canceling. And there's no insurance for anybody. Every single band on that list, it was a ton of American bands and artists, were just screwed. All of our flights, air BBs, everything's booked.

[00:29:59] Tim: I remember this.

[00:30:00] Michaela: And I was like, Oh my God, I'm going to go in the red.

Even if I cancel this, like I'm still going to lose money and be home. And my dad was like, just go you're still doing business. So it's an expense. And he's like, do you know how much a European summer

[00:30:18] Tim: Yeah,

[00:30:20] Michaela: but you're working. So at least it's in some way subsidized.

He was like, just go let it go. Enjoy yourself. And I was like, dad.

[00:30:30] Tim: I love that. Yeah. like, you know, Joni, when Joni Mitchell's singing in those songs like, I'm gonna rent me a grand piano and put some flowers, I'm like, did you rent the grand piano, or David Geffen play for that band? and then I'm down

on a dirt road in Spain. And I was like, you lucky.

She had the talent and everything to go with it, but yeah, her fun little European vacation where she wrote all those songs. It's that was totally paid for by, yeah, different times.

I'm a big fan of, going far away from home and being kind of broke.

that's my business model for many years. Uh, yeah. And you know what? I just say to anybody who listens, it's like the happiness thing. you don't have to be selfish about being happy or laying down boundaries, but you can actually say out loud, this is my dream I'd love to go to Denmark and check out what that place is really like.

And so maybe you're only going to get a coffee shop gig out of it or whatever it is. no one's going to do it for you. me, have to get on it and be your own boss and emails aren't going to write themselves, . I think finding that joy and happiness we've all been doing this a little bit longer and so it's a little easier for us to talk about it, I suppose. you know, if you're just figuring it out, happiness and satisfaction, which is very fleeting is important, is really important. So gotta figure out what it is that makes you happy.

some people it's making a lot of money or selling a lot of records, that's fortunately not what it is for us, but the Alaska thing for me is that's my thing. And on my website TimEaston. com, there's a thing called How to Tour Alaska and Change Your Life.

Now, would you guys want to play a loud, crazy bar in Alaska? Probably not, and neither do

I Well,

[00:32:05] Michaela: my list. we're gonna go a couple summers ago.

[00:32:08] Tim: yeah, I mean, I would,

[00:32:09] Michaela: even know about that? No,

[00:32:09] Aaron: yeah, there's tours of hers I've learned about from her posting on social

[00:32:12] Tim: Yeah,

well, I mean, it is really, beautiful place full of amazing creative people. And

the traveling and and making yourself happy with a subsidized journey or whatever. get going on it. And things do not work out. And I remember you writing about that and just feeling the spinning that you were doing. and I also was like, Oh yeah, I've been there like, Ooh, serious plans changed, you gotta be able to deal with that, I think in this business

it happens. day to day, like a piece of gear, which, some people handle very well. Some people do not

[00:32:45] Michaela: I think, the having, like, the emotional flexibility and also openness to just experience is to be had, like that Europe trip, not cancelling meant we just kept our schedule and I posted on Instagram like, Hey, I'm going to be in Stockholm now. Is there anyone who could host a show?

And people reached out and there's this community of Honky Tonk fans in Stockholm and they hosted me and I had the most epic show in this little basement

[00:33:15] Tim: love that story.

[00:33:16] Michaela: was packed and like so beautiful and who knows if that would have been better than if I had done the festival. Like There's so many things that were just like, Oh, I'm so glad that we, and also that I have a partner that was willing to do that.

And like, Hang out with our two year old in Europe and like handle the logistics and everything

[00:33:37] Tim: we shouldn't make any more plans at all.

[00:33:39] Aaron: and throw the dice

[00:33:42] Tim: just like

I'm just posting on Instagram my boundaries but anyways I'm heading I'm heading to southern Italy

[00:33:48] Michaela: Yeah

[00:33:50] Tim: it's all it has to be gluten free you know my big gluten free boundary I'm sorry that's a strange joke but um I just ask, the festival that was canceled, where was it again?

was it in? a trio of festivals

[00:34:03] Michaela: Yeah, it was called Stockholm Americana and it was also

[00:34:06] Aaron: Oslo Americana and when you're it was in Malmo and this year's Malmo or last year. Yeah.

[00:34:11] Michaela: I played it in and it was just Stockholm and it was awesome. And the guy who put it together wonderful.

I feel for him.

[00:34:18] Aaron: It was a great concept too. So the idea is it was happening in these three cities simultaneously. And so you play all three of the cities.

[00:34:26] Tim: Love it.

[00:34:26] Aaron: Back to back

and so that's why there's a lot of Americans because he could offer you three gigs in major markets so like everybody would rotate between the three

[00:34:35] Tim: And our Scandinavian friends, they're not known for being shabby at the books. You know, if they're actually pretty tight, you know, especially the Danish the Dutch to, our Southern Scandinavian friends, they know how to, uh, control things in that department.

So it is almost shocking. You're like, huh? I've had, I've been to some gigs South than that, Italy or Spain where it's just been like, Whoa, what happened? You know? And there's an age old joke about, we're going on tour in Europe and the catering is by the British and the organization is by the Italians.

And this is all really cruel jokes against our European brothers. then, yeah, the sense of humor is provided by the Germans and whatever, you know, the sense of irony, you know, there's all these terrible jokes about it. But the fact is it's like we get to go to Europe every now and then. And I'm super grateful for that.

which I know there's some people out there that that is a dream that they're trying to figure out how to attain that dream. And, a big part of it is what I tell a lot of younger people is, just throw down and go that's certainly true with Alaska.

Like I tell young kids don't wait tables in Des Moines, like Go up to Alaska and wait tables for the summer. You'll make more money and your life will be changed forever. So, I mean, I know that's all way off the subject of what we meant to maybe talk about today, but I think part of the teaching what I love to do is inspire young artists to basically get out there and go for it.

And. take some chances. Otherwise, how are you going to know? You might actually end up a different kind of songwriter than you ever thought you would be if you put yourself out there and go for it. So,

[00:36:08] Aaron: Yeah what I hear through all of this is you know, we've talked about following your dream and, living your dream and we're getting to do that I think it really takes the understanding that You know, it's called living the dream. it's a process.

It's not a finish line. It's not a destination that dream, that process is just going to move with you. You're never going to get to something. It's like, well, there I did, you know, you know, maybe in your dying days,

[00:36:30] Tim: A musician.

[00:36:31] Aaron: a couple of weeks, you're like, I did it, but it is a process.

[00:36:34] Tim: I had a really difficult flight home the other day that was like, took two days when it should have taken a half a day. Yeah. Stuck in the airport, Charlotte Hotel, the whole nine yards of like, get up the next day, Surrendered, feel like, okay, I'm just gonna see what happens today.

And there's a piano player in the atrium of the Charlotte airport He was playing and I just came right into his music. I just the Pied Piper, you know, and I just was right to him and I noticed it was a table there and I sat Right at the edge of his piano.

I could have hit the high key on the, piano. I ordered a salad and some lunch and, I listened to him play and he played, how deep is your love? He's just doing all the melodies. And I watched people's change, like their posture, everything just softened and I saw it happening.

And then I told him, I go, yeah, I've, I just had a hard time. And I told him the story and he was like, Oh, I've been there. He used to work on a cruise ship. He used to work in Vegas. And I was like, Ooh, man, like I never had to like it. No, like he was a brilliant musician.

And then he said to remain teachable. He said those same words.

I was just kind of mesmerized by this man bringing Joy to people playing in an airport atrium. that's where he was in life. And I could tell he was really calm and serene and accepting of it.

that's not our path necessarily, but it was like, where he ended up. And he brought immense joy to people. I saw people coming over and they were like, Oh, that's my wife's favorite song. Or, you know, he was playing everything from jazz to like Adele. He was covering all these bases.

I was just so moved by the amount of beauty he was accomplishing by playing music an airport, it definitely altered my path through the day and made me realize how important it is, really focus on when you're playing each song and to really sink into Because you can't always, there's distractions or maybe there's Maybe you're in a loud bar in Alaska, which, it's not always ideal. anyways, that's just the story I wanted to share with you guys of someone that I saw on the road that is doing something way different, but was getting joy and also accomplishing some kind of dream was happening there.

That was definitely part of my dream, like being moved by music and watching other people being moved by it.

[00:38:35] Aaron: Yeah, I had a teacher in college named Billy Hart, who's highly regarded jazz drummer. He's played with everybody and, as drummer, as an instrumentalist, as a musician, has really put his stamp on that vocabulary

[00:38:49] Tim: Yeah.

[00:38:49] Aaron: on that music. We went to school in New York City.

He lived out in Montclair, New Jersey, and I used to take the train. He'd call me like the night before. He was impossible to get in touch with. And he'd call me the night before, he'd say, Hey man, come on over tomorrow. I'm like yes, Billy Hart, of course, I'll come over tomorrow. And I'd get on the train, take the subway to, Penn Station and get on New Jersey Transit at like 8 in the morning, and show up at his house at 9, and I'd be there until like 6, which usually that meant I helped him put his drums in the

[00:39:14] Tim: Yeah.

[00:39:14] Aaron: So he could drive into the city for his gig that night and he'd drive me in and drop me off and I'd hop back on the train.

you know, I'd be at his house like all day and it was like, we'd watch videos, we'd talk, we'd cook lunch.

[00:39:23] Tim: He was a mentor to you. yeah,

[00:39:26] Aaron: absolutely. And I have quite a few friends that also studied with him and they had the same kind of experiences. But one of the first things he shared with me is, you know, he asked me, he's like, how did being a musician become a career?

How did that become a job? like, oh, I was, thinking like the turn of the century or something and he brought it back to like Feudal times and when kings and queens would hire like a lute player Or whatever hire

[00:39:48] Tim: Yeah.

[00:39:49] Aaron: a servant that was a lute player or whatever it was To just stand in the corner at dinner time and play music because it created this ambience and it created this energy and this intimacy to the moment, know, and he's like, as far as I've learned through my years, that was the start of, your career being a musician and what you did for works.

But before then, you know, it was times of, whatever it is like oral history or, whatnot. But In a way, that guy that you met in the airport is just, a continuation

[00:40:15] Tim: Same notes using the same notes. and this is why I brought it up. He said no one ever gets halfway with this. And he pointed at the piano. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, I don't care if you're Mozart or Elton John. No one ever even gets halfway at knowing the capability of music.

what he meant basically is to remain teachable and that's a constant learning about it. And, we could say the same thing about parenthood and stuff like that. We learn from other parents and we try our best, I'm kind of grateful my daughter's She's being really influenced by music.

I can tell. You know, She's actually listening to classic hip hop right now like Tupac and Biggie, which is like, My parents listening to earlier than Sinatra, like in the 70s, like that's a huge gap of time between now and Biggie Smalls it's like, wow, you're listening to really old music already, I mean, yeah. And so.

[00:41:04] Michaela: the music of my childhood.

[00:41:06] Tim: Yeah well, I mean, no, I think it's staying in the childhood thing with little kid songs. I love them and they're great. I, I recorded the ABCs. on a cell phone because it calmed Ellington down. When she was upset or whatever, she would just mellow out.

So I put it on a loop and then I started singing harmony with myself on the phone. I'm it in the car and I would like. Put the ABC song on that was like the start of our musical relationship. And then we started harmonizing and going for three part harmonies just on the ABCs.

That was

like,

today I'm, pretty sure she looks at musicians as like

[00:41:37] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:41:38] Tim: people that haven't really grown up and eternal children, eternal children. I'm like well, that's fair. It's fair. It's, you know, lucky us.

[00:41:47] Michaela: And like going back to the piano player in the airport, I think they're, in the musician world, but also in larger society, there's like a, this rhetoric of a hierarchy of what is seen as successful. So like

[00:41:58] Tim: Yeah. playing piano in an airport is seen as Oh, that's too bad.

[00:42:01] Michaela: It didn't work out for them. Like how many times I meet people and in an airplane and they ask me. Yeah. What I do when I say musician, they're like, I can feel it. You're going to make it. I'm like, I made

[00:42:11] Tim: I'm on a plane.

[00:42:13] Michaela: as a musician. And we had Edwin McCain on do you know who he

[00:42:18] Tim: I do. I was at a wedding with him once.

[00:42:20] Michaela: that episode just came out this week. of the time of our recording right now that our episode will come out later. But he talked about how he spent like a good 15 years Not putting out new records, just like going out and playing his catalog. Cause he had his hits in the

[00:42:35] Tim: Yeah.

[00:42:35] Michaela: because he could just have a modest life and be home enough with his family to raise

[00:42:40] Tim: Mm hmm. Nice.

[00:42:41] Michaela: I asked him like what that did to his creativity of not actively writing and putting out new music. he said, he was like I still wrote songs. I've just wrote them. As gifts, like for friends of mine and family, if something happened in their life that felt songworthy, I'd write it.

he was like not to make music this, cheesy, like spiritual entity. And he was like, but I had this feeling that I didn't want music to be about needing to give me something in return,

[00:43:08] Tim: Yeah.

[00:43:09] Michaela: to make money for me and it needing to serve me.

He was like, I really like to just be able to do things like write songs and give them to somebody not try and get somebody to cut it, not try to make money from it, that it felt essential, almost like this offering and exchange. I've thought about that a lot of just there's always this little component for so many of us of well, what are we getting in return from our Our music and then this like value judgment of am I gaining enough success from it?

Do people like my songs enough? Am I seen as a failure you know, we live in Nashville. Every time you go to the Nashville airport, there's tons of solos, singers playing guitar covering songs is there like a little bit of a judgment of like, Oh, hope they make it. I think that is a lot of the perception,

and again, it's like wanting to shift that maybe that is the dream

[00:44:03] Tim: I'll see if I have time and someone sings a song, I'll find them on Instagram and I'll write them a message and I'll say, I heard you sing a song today and it made me feel good. I Try to like just do that for them

But yeah, Nashville airport, there'll be like three or four gigs going on one passing.

So

[00:44:17] Michaela: At 7:00 AM

[00:44:18] Tim: yeah, yeah it's, it's remarkable. Our whole town like, yeah, just going to Kroger is like, Oh, there's the, one of the greatest pedal steel players in the world. Right. You know, Like all the time it is a remarkable place to be, but also a town full of people that are hurting, sometimes It's something else to be out there in the world and I tried to do more than, think of it as money or making money. It's a way bigger responsibility, I think, being a songwriter and being a musician than just making money. there's a lot more going on.

if you, um, get lucky enough to do it long enough where you start to realize that, I that when I was in my twenties, I wanted to party down and get in trouble. That's what I thought musicians did. So, growing up, taking my time, slow learner.

[00:45:02] Aaron: Yeah. Never ceasing to grow up.

You know what I mean?

[00:45:05] Tim: Yeah. Remain teachable. Remain a, yeah, just crawl out of the rest of development just enough to be like, okay, you know what? I'm okay. I'm not gonna. I'm trying not to be judgmental and whatever today. Cause yeah there's, just so many hardworking musicians out there that no one has ever heard of.

And then there's some of my heroes are like Wilco, those guys, there's no radio hits or whatever you want to call it for them They built it all on their own thing. And it's, you know, yeah, they did have help. behind the scenes with record companies or whatever and management at a certain point, but eventually they became their own thing.

And that model, I think is really helpful for anybody we know now that talks to me about how am I going to put this album out? I'm like, start your own company just do it. You can't wait around for, 30 Tigers or whoever else it is. Not to say that's not a valid way to go.

I'm just saying like these days, there's so many ways to just really do it yourself. And thank God too, because, .

Otherwise, there'd be a lot of things not happening a lot of art not being made because people get wrapped up in this idea that they have to have some kind of corporate thing with them.

And, I've had a little bit of both. Been at it a little bit. So I was lucky at first that a publishing company came along, but that's not, why I do it today for sure. that's not part of my work day. When I get up and I start writing a song or start working on any poetry or anything it's, about what am I feeling and what's going on with me emotionally and how do I want to talk about this?

There is a time in my life when I lost, track of that, I think, when I started not going on my own path and going on someone else's path or trying to be something else that someone else wanted me to be or whatever. And I don't feel like that today. And look forward to fact that there's a lot coming up underneath us that I don't think we even comprehend yet.

And I hope that the artificial stuff doesn't get in the way too much of our children's musical and artistic expressions coming

up. You know, like it is a little bit alarming for this old dude to see some of that stuff, I'm just an old fogey

[00:47:03] Aaron: Yeah. hanging out in a hot tub.

yeah. I, uh, maybe this will resonate with you too. my fears about AI and all of that. I can only assume that, you know, when drum machines came out, people had a lot of the same fears and now they're, crazy creative tool. Talk about Wilco.

There's drum machines in

[00:47:19] Tim: Love it. I actually sing, I sing all these drum machines sound the same in one of my songs. And it's a little bit snarky that I say that, but I thought it was a funny line, so I kept it in there. But I used a drum machine this morning, and I used one yesterday. I love them. I mean, And then when I put my daughter on the drum machine, and she starts creating her own pattern, the coolest thing in the world.

yeah, drum

[00:47:39] Aaron: that'll,

turn into a tool, you know what I mean? Hopefully five years from now we can look back and be like, oh, this is cool.

[00:47:44] Tim: that's the thing that we have really lucky. You know. I don't know what your folks were playing or brothers and sisters were playing, but like profound impact on me, like super deep.

Like I'll hear something on the radio. I heard like Christine, I heard just some Fleetwood Mac tune after she passed. And I was like, I got really emotional. I was like, I was in the back seat of my parents car all of a sudden looking out the window. I was like, man, that, that woman's voice had a profound impact on my life and I didn't even really realize it until I heard her voice after she passed.

This is of course last year, but I started listening a little differently to anything now and thinking about I was young and when I first heard it. And so, uh, yeah, I just, I know in my daughter's case, like I have the Tom Petty station on Sirius XM and he's a great DJ.

So he's always playing stuff and I definitely got her into the Petty.

 

[00:48:31] Aaron: yeah, just this morning Our daughter goes to this daycare and her teacher's name is Miss Molly. So I, played her Little Richard this

[00:48:37] Tim: Oh, nice.

[00:48:38] Aaron: Good Golly, Miss Molly. And she was like, I was like, did you like it? She's like, yeah, I don't want to listen to that again.

I'm like, okay, cool.

[00:48:44] Tim: he screams too much.

[00:48:45] Aaron: what blew my mind is she goes, I want to listen to the sunshine song, which usually means here comes the sun from the Beatles, but she wanted to listen to good day sunshine, which. like more and was actually the first song that I played for her in the car on the way back from the hospital when she was born.

And I told her that and she's like, Oh, cool.

I just love,

[00:49:04] Tim: Yeah.

[00:49:05] Michaela: seeing their reaction. Like she loves Roger Miller.

[00:49:08] Tim: Oh, man. Same. Yeah. Same.

[00:49:11] Michaela: our big vinyl collection in our living room. So she's from a young age learned to put a record on and

Flip the record and she thinks the song?

The Roger Miller song that she loves? Oh dang Me. And she just

[00:49:22] Tim: I ought to take a rope and hang.

[00:49:23] Michaela: She .

[00:49:24] Aaron: Yeah. She, She loves listening to it. On 45 though. Yeah.

[00:49:28] Tim: Oh, man. Yeah. It changes your life. That

45 changed my life. Putting that

on and just getting into it as a kiddo. Absolutely. Thank you, Beatles, for all time, forever. we'll take a good break from them now and then come back.

And we're just like, Ooh, yeah, this is good. You know?

that's already happened where we've slowed down on the Beatles and then picked back up and slowed down. And every time it's like a new thing and we're just like, we got some nuggets and things we've discussed I can't even believe.

It's a part of our discussions, really fun, lyrical things and track accidents and stuff like that. And it's always, it's always that little hangout, to and from school really, or to the supermarket and back.

probably the greatest, thing in the world, really.

[00:50:13] Aaron: Yeah. Agreed. This is a wonderful full circle point on our conversation

[00:50:17] Tim: talking about

again? Yeah,

well, I mean, it's

cool. when I was down and out in the airport the other day, too, other people's children that was the other thing that made me like pick me up. watching kids play. that's a helpful thing for me in this, wild world people being charged about things.

And, so yeah, super grateful you guys, raising an awesome family look forward to when you guys just start a circus and, you know, head out and,

you know, Oh my gosh, yeah, I've been joking. I was like, I just got to get her to drop out of school and get a driver's license and we'll be good to go.

Yup.

And, you know, it's like already the merch sales, when Ellington, you know, and I'm, I know it's not about that, but I personally have a hard time. doing the stuff and then going right into business guy and being like credit card taking guy, whatever. I'll, sit and talk about stuff, but We have to be salesmen of our little shop. And that

is a weird thing to do right after you've been

 

[00:51:13] Tim: singing. So, but if she's there, if Ellington's there, it's like, yes, it's like

all happens. So just saying. School's not

that important. Okay.

[00:51:23] Michaela: Hey

[00:51:23] Tim: School's not that important.

[00:51:25] Aaron: yeah, I'm from New England, it's been generations that, you know, grow your own labor

[00:51:29] Tim: Learning.

Yeah. She just You know, just get them, start them young, get a paper route and you're off. Yeah.

Good hanging with you guys. Good talking.

[00:51:38] Aaron: for making time in your day to sit down with

[00:51:40] Tim: No problem.

[00:51:41] Michaela: we finally made this happen. Thank you so

[00:51:43] Tim: Yeah. um,

[00:51:44] Michaela: sharing.

[00:51:45] Tim: Love you guys. Have a beautiful rest of your summer and fall.

 

[00:51:49] Tim: and we'll see you around.

[00:51:50] Michaela: You, too. Bye. Tim. Bye. See you, man.

[00:51:52] Tim: See ya.