William Prince is from the Peguis First Nation - in what is now Manitoba Canada - and a Juno and Canadian Folk Award winning singer-songwriter, who has toured with Neil Young, and Yola, and worked with producer Dave Cobb. We talk about the experience and realities of his people, the generational trauma that is present, how that effects and informs his art and his creativity, and how he sees his role in his community as a public figure, and father.
William Prince is from the Peguis First Nation - in what is now Manitoba Canada - and a Juno and Canadian Folk Award winning singer-songwriter, who has toured with Neil Young, and Yola, and worked with producer Dave Cobb. We talk about the experience and realities of his people, the generational trauma that is present, how that effects and informs his art and his creativity, and how he sees his role in his community as a public figure, and father.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is still relatively new, a very big thank you for being an early listener, for coming back if you've listened before, and for checking us out if you are brand new.
[00:00:16] Aaron: Yeah, this is a really grassroots podcast. And so if you are returning, chances are you heard about this show. From a friend, or maybe it's on social media, some form of word of mouth. And so we have a simple ask for you. If you could please just pay that forward and share this show, share an episode that you like, could be this one, could be any of the 30 others that we have available, but just share that the same way that you heard, and that's a great way for us to get new listeners The more listeners we have, the longer we can keep doing this and the more guests we can have and the more ideas we can share back with our community.
So if you could take five seconds to go ahead and do that, we'd really appreciate it. And we're
[00:00:50] Michaela: not your typical music promo show. We don't talk about the latest record, the tour, we're not promoting anything. We like to talk to artists about the in between times. We want to talk about the behind the scenes tools and routines they've found helpful in staying inspired, creative.
Healthy and sane while building a career around their
[00:01:11] Aaron: art. Yeah, and as we all know, there is so much that is outside of our control while building a career around your art in this business and in life in general. And so we wanted to focus on what is within our control. That is our creativity, our mindsets, our approach.
And so with that in mind, we decided to invite some of our friends and some artists that we really admire onto the show and ask them the basic question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so you can sustain your creativity?
[00:01:39] Michaela: And this week's episode is an example of one of my personal favorites because I cried and was then holding back tears for essentially the whole hour.
And as soon as we hung up, I said, okay, I need to cry just for a release. Because it was just a really powerful conversation with an incredible guest.
[00:01:58] Aaron: Yeah, and this week's guest is William Prince. He comes from the Peguas First Nation community he's been nominated and won awards such as the Juno Award, Canadian Folk Music Award and the day that this show is airing today, he is nominated for an Emerging Artist Award at the Americana Music Awards at the Ryman here in Nashville.
[00:02:17] Michaela: And William, his latest record is produced by Dave Cobb. He's toured with Neil Young, Yola, Warren Treaty. He's appeared on CBS Saturday Morning. He has a great resume, but even more important than that, he's Just a really deep, kind person who shared a lot of himself and what influences his songwriting, which addresses a lot of emotional nuance, joy, love, grief, as well as sharing the stories of his indigenous community
[00:02:48] Aaron: he is obviously a person that Is very perceptive and has spent a lot of time observing and processing and synthesizing his experience and the experience Of his family and his ancestors and his community and right off the bat, he comes out the gate and says, I'm not on an album campaign.
I'm on a life campaign and that just set the tone for this conversation that just completely rocked both of our worlds and We're not going to detract from that at all. So without further ado, here's our conversation with William Prince.
[00:03:20] Michaela: Nice to meet you.
[00:03:21] Aaron: Thanks for carving out time to sit with us this morning.
[00:03:23] Michaela: So to start with, I just wanted to ask where you are right now. And I know you actually are in the midst of an album campaign, which is a little rare for us. But where you are right now and how you're doing
[00:03:36] William: Oh well, right now I'm at home. I'm in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Treaty One territory as it's known around here. I just finished an incredible summer of touring with my band. I had this really great, balance this year for the first time in a while where I was mainly out on the weekends, so I got to be home.
Pretty much every Monday to Thursday which was really nice. It lent itself to, getting a little more time at home uh, with my son and just being here. But yeah, I'm back in, in Winnipeg right now. And I got a couple weeks off before we start up our next venture of things.
[00:04:16] Michaela: nice. Was that intentional on your part and with your team to try and set up your touring that way?
[00:04:22] William: it falls into the season. Truthfully I go when I'm needed and where I'm needed. it's nice to be able to somewhat strategize. I did, about six or so months back say, Hey, Wyatt's, Wyatt, his first day of school is coming up September. And... I said, I have to be home that week.
I'm always home on his birthday week, which was this month as well. And I try to be home for the first day of school because it's really important to me. And I want to be there for him. Yeah, it worked out this way. And, don't want to date myself too much. But, lot of big things happen this time of year.
excited get to all of them. Should I mention those things, or?
[00:05:00] Michaela: Yeah, sure, you can do that.
[00:05:02] William: Oh, I just mean September to me is always Americana Fest month. Are you familiar with Americana Fest?
[00:05:07] Michaela: we live in Nashville
[00:05:08] William: Well, There you go.
[00:05:09] Michaela: We're also both, we're musicians. So we're not music journalists we're, touring musicians. He's a producer. I'm a singer songwriter.
[00:05:16] William: Right on.
[00:05:17] Michaela: we started this podcast to try and have more artist driven conversations.
[00:05:21] William: Yeah, I'd love that. I'd really love that. Now that I know where you are, I should have asked my apologies. But yeah, Don't worry. I'm, at all.
no, I'm happy to talk about every other thing but music. Let's do it. Let's go through. I got a couple of years to catch up on.
So,
[00:05:37] Michaela: How old is your son?
[00:05:38] William: He just turned seven. in the seventh season of this really great TV show that I can't take my eyes off of. The character development is just out of this world, so I'm having the best time.
[00:05:50] Aaron: Yeah, we have a two year old daughter, so we just got through the pilot season, and now we're, like,
[00:05:54] William: Yeah. picked up. That's great, you know, really start committing to your role now. yeah.
[00:06:01] Aaron: Yeah, it's really turned into an action flick this year. Oh
[00:06:04] William: Sure. yeah, that's a great age. we had a really fun time at, two as well. I love the three major stage and I get all the memories and photo memory stuff now. And just in a flash, it's all happening right in front of me.
He's at hockey camp right now. I ducked out a few minutes early to get here and, he's having a great time just really becoming his own person. It's really special to witness. my other 22 hours revolve around him, truthfully. I'm here.
Half the time, you could say. And so I really, I try to make those uh, those hours count when I'm back.
[00:06:40] Aaron: Yeah. Have you been touring his whole life or has it picked up as he's gotten older?
[00:06:45] William: Yeah, I was in New York City the day he was born. Just made it back in time. It's been steady. It's all he's really known of me. And he really likes it. He's starting to understand it more. It's really neat to him, the impact he gets to see, we bump into uh, new people who know uh, my music all the time.
And always asks, do you know that person? And I was like, I don't, but they know us in a way, which is really special. So he's very observant and thoughtful and caring and smart. We're having the best time over here.
[00:07:17] Michaela: That's beautiful. we were trying to like pace ourselves a little bit since we are getting to know each other in this quick hour of conversation, but I'm just going to hop right in. from listening to your songs and reading other interviews and doing, our research, it seems like there's so much depth that you include in your work, in your messaging about, staying present, gratitude love, and really focusing on what matters.
I often find that a lot of Us who do that, we do that work because we might need those reminders ourselves, or feel like that is our natural tendency and want to share it. Where does that play for you? Are you someone that needs to constantly remind yourself, stay present and I want to, be in this moment or is that like a really just natural aspect of your personality?
[00:08:07] William: it's a practice thing for me, for sure. I am on a life campaign, not just an album campaign right now. I'm, I guess you could say I'm stepping, I'm stepping into a fresh decade. I keep calling it because pretty much anything you could have read about me or listened to about me was born in the last 20 years and then had its application in the past 10.
And with that, there was a number of those things. Depth is a nice way to talk about grief and to talk about separation and to talk about loss and trying to, express how I've experienced love in my life, how I've experienced family. the folk music from my life taken out and put to record.
And that involves, a lot of lessons I've learned over time. I can look back at those points in time, and there was a lot of worry, A lot of wondering. If I would ever get to some version of this place where I feel I'm at now, I'm finding this really comfortable stride that's, doesn't feel like it's going to be gone the next day or I don't know what's happening in the next two months or something.
Like I was always living, moment to moment and there was a lot of low points during that. time. So I would always celebrate the good and feel good for a while. And was like, I wish I could feel this most of the time. Mhm. to be present then, I was always like looking forward, I'll be happy when I get to this place. When I have more gigs. And when I have more, stability and money. All those things. Where, struggling artist, of course You just go show to show, and then I was still working other jobs to supplement my income, of course, and just trying to figure it out.
was a tough few years that revolved, you know, around my passing away. He was sick for a long time, and that was the main narrative. We were all pitching in, in some regard, to take care of, this former head of our household, and that wasn't easy. That occupied a lot of my mental space.
And I was defined by it, and wore it as this badge through the first couple dozen songs that I'd been working through, experiencing that grief, a stifling of sorts because you can't go too far. You never know when it's going to be the last hang kind of thing. Mhm.
And then just on top of him needing me, I'd like to say we were very close, so I wanted to have that time with him.
So that was the first big part of that decade. And then of course, finding. The person who would ultimately become the mother of my child. And, us separating in the first couple years of his life, well, it was a lot of, immediate love and passion, of course, but we just weren't suited for each other the best in the end. And so I had to form a new identity out of that because I was thinking that anything but the family that's together might have been a bit of a failure on my part, but that's, not at all it. The best thing that she and I now share is this person that we adore. You know, She's a great mom, and I'm a great dad, and we get along.
And it's made its way to this point that yeah.
life is enjoyable. So much when we're discussing him and his accomplishments, and sharing our stories, sending each other photos from the other worlds. You know, it's really something to see. And... I'm proud of that, I'm proud of that relationship and I'm proud that he gets to see his mom and dad be good to each other and get along and laugh and talk and take a moment, it's the best situation I could ask for, all things given there, the way they ended.
Yeah. we're going to have time for two questions, and that's the reminder. I like to stay present. I want to be present because there's so much going on now that's really good, and the way I've arrived here is through that gratitude that you mentioned, and rooted now in the seven sacred grandfather teachings, that's what they're called.
And. As long as you're practicing humility and respect and love, truth, these are all things that I'm wanting to adhere to and, doing to the best of my ability and some days failing, still coming up short. This broken heart of mine, I'm uh, responsible for it and Mhm.
with that being present is important to me now.
Because it will go by. I watched my dad's life come to an end at 65. I should be golfing with my son at 65. I should be getting to see his dreams really unfurl and become what they are, just like mine are. You know, He would have been so proud, so happy because we were both singers.
We were both, involved in this journey from the beginning together. I want to be there for that. I want to be there for Season 35 of this show, That's really important to me.
[00:12:52] Michaela: Listening to you talk about that and the kind of defining that first, decade and the defining aspect of your father's illness and, that loss and that grief. it feels like. it's that natural progression of life when you first experience a huge loss and then it feels like it changes you so deeply as a person that then it's hard to see what else there is to you and to the world.
And growing through that to then become accepting that grief and loss is a part of all of our lives. That's what I just kept thinking about and I talk about this. A lot, everywhere, because it is very defining, but my mom had a massive stroke at age 63, and I was five months pregnant when it happened, and she was in the hospital for three months, and her whole right side is paralyzed, and she's now 65, and she's alive, and she's thankfully very much like with it cognitively, but she's now disabled and what you were talking about with your dad of losing him at 65 and this idea of what that time was supposed to be like in his life.
And I can relate to that so much with what my mom's life is supposed to be like in my head of having a granddaughter who's now two. And I'm sorry, now I'm going to get emotional, but
[00:14:09] William: I think the
[00:14:10] Michaela: acceptance of that grief and the wanting to turn that into something positive to share with people.
it's the best that you can do of embracing it and knowing that we all get this eventually at some point and that depth of that grief and pain is because we got to experience the depth
[00:14:30] William: of that love. Definitely.
totally losing
That's okay. No, I'm so sorry, that happened, That's why we're present. Because, we can all be affected by something life altering. At any moment, that must be especially hard for you because things that happen like that, we can't predict these, and it's so shocking to the system.
Everything was just fine. And then just like that, everything's changed. My dad made a lot of decisions in the latter 20 years of his life where If he had maybe taken better care of himself, he might still be here. He was, a diabetic.
and needed help with his diet and could have been more active. These are all the same things that I am staring down, as well. I'm not 25 anymore. I'm 37 years old. My dad was 43 when he had his first heart attack.
we were just kids. And didn't know what was going on. Almost lost him then too. And... His complications. I've witnessed it all. It's a motivating factor for sure. I need to put it more into practice because I was just talking to my son yesterday about the idea of try, how there's just you either do it or you don't in a way.
I'm, I'm trying to go to the gym. I'm trying to eat better. And it's like, well, you're not really because you're, just eating poorly and you're not going to the gym.
[00:15:49] Michaela: you're thinking about it.
[00:15:50] William: you know, it's like, I'm getting ready to roll the boulder. And once that's going, I'm going to be all brand new.
And I've been chasing this, for the last decade now too. So the best thing I can do for myself is to, First off standing in the joy. Stand in the Joy is my latest record. And, it's about choosing happiness. And I'm around two people all the time that choose happiness pretty much all the time.
And that's my partner and my son. And they're really great at that. They're great reminders of that. How, I'm more than the trauma that I grew up with, raised in a home where um, it was unpredictable the time. We'd get these really loving versions Of my dad, but also these really stressed out and not knowing what to do with himself versions. And I didn't realize how much that actually imprinted on me until I started attending therapy, started to unpack these things.
And this is a really deep rooted thing that comes from generations of intergenerational trauma that the First Nations, indigenous people face across North America, across Turtle Island, but When you think specifically, if I may, for a moment, there's a whole history in Canada where, even the, police were created just to police the First Nations people to, start this process of colonization, of taking the land, removing children from their parents at a very young age to start colonization.
Civilize, normalize, and take away this culture, language, and the hair. every family member I have, is affected by that. And past family members have been affected by that. I understand that he was a lost boy himself. He survived day school, that's where they attended.
He suffered a lot of abuse at the hand of adults there. And it locked him in a place, I forgive him for that. And then he had to start young. He had to go make a young life at 14 years old. And he started having a family young, just a teenager when he was a father, lying about his age so that he could work with the carpenters and construction and changing tires in a garage, you know, when he was just a kid. So he never got to experience that life free of the most intense need, for care for others. So to his credit, he spent his life caring for others and, it eventually led to a place where he didn't know what to do with a lot of his feelings, I see. And because of that, we grew up in a place that, could be tough at times.
And... I almost don't think I would change it because I owe so much to his choice of music, his style of guitar playing, the way he spoke to others. He spoke for Alcoholics Anonymous for years and would travel to different hotels and talk about his life and story. And it was so inspiring.
It's what I'm doing today. It's just another version of that. And I owe him so much for my start. I still hold him so close in my heart, but I'm also learning now in my adulthood that we are not the same. And there's boundaries I put up that I, I want to take this next step forward and not leave behind those things all the time where he was angry a lot of the time.
Frustrated and... Wanted better for all of us, and he's like, don't you see how much I want it to be better for all of us? And, but that's not doing anybody any favors that lives with you, you know? And from that all this stuff was made. So getting back to the whole gratitude and being present kind of thing again.
But I was raised around that kind of stuff. I just want to leave a better legacy for my son, for my family, where they, you know, your dad was happy. He enjoyed himself. He wasn't grouchy the rest of the day because he dropped his keys or forgot his wallet upstairs. And again, that comes back to.
health, my body's hurting. So it sucks to go upstairs again today. Oh my gosh. This guy, look at this guy. This guy could be in the NFL right? now, But , Aaron, sometimes it,
[00:19:44] Michaela: yeah.
[00:19:45] William: uh,
[00:19:45] Aaron: Sh
[00:19:46] William: when you're out of shape, Aaron, uh, it's tough to get around a little bit. Oh, okay. Yeah.
[00:19:51] Aaron: yeah. My, my neck is pinched right now, so don't worry. I'm in a position that is comfortable at the moment, in hearing you talk about presence and taking your steps to address and kind of end this generational trauma that gets passed down all your talk of presence, I hear, this really strong acknowledgement that you have choice, you were talking about, if this happens, then I'll be happy or, when this happens and there'll be this in regards to your career or things that were happening, you know, and just being present in what's happening now.
And I think that if then fallacy is really common with artists and people in this. And I just want to you. point out the gold in being present in understanding that you have a choice in your actions and you have that power right here in the now is, a wise, very strong thing to possess.
[00:20:38] William: you know,
[00:20:39] Michaela: it sounds like you're modeling. to your, child of, you want your child to see that he has a dad that's happy. But what I was hearing even more of what you were saying is that you want your child to see that he has a dad who has emotions but works to know. What to do with them and how to choose his behavior, it's incredibly powerful to know and for children to witness like things happen in life.
We all feel frustration. We all feel sad. We feel angry. We feel grouchy. We feel happy. We feel elated. and all of those feelings were entitled to and it's okay, whatever they are, but then it's what. Our behavior is that we have the power over.
[00:21:22] William: of course. Yeah, because what results out of that emotion, could affect people for a long time. I say this all the time. might forget the exact thing that was said, but people don't often forget how you made them feel. That's how the show operates, too. So I want to leave behind good things and Show him a better way.
That's my round the clock project, truthfully, is that trying to be a good influence on him. And I see lots of it. We're good buds, and we have a lot of comedy, a lot of humor in this house, too, that's the best part is, is watching him develop that palette too and figure out what is funny, and he tests the waters himself, just like I did.
I was a comedian as a kid, believe it or not, and, I like seeing those good parts of myself rub off the best way. It's he makes me laugh, he makes me, joy and choose happiness. And yes, today is a great day, isn't it? Just to go shoot around in the driveway. we talked about these choices, but we must recognize our own privilege for those choices too, which is what I'm trying to show him in that balance is that Mm you can be, waking up and say, I'm going to choose to be happy today, but.
If you're growing up in a home on the reserve that doesn't have running water and has abusive parents and stuff, Or parents, I should say, that are afflicted by their trauma and their choices. And, again, this is why it's so important to acknowledge that intergenerational thing. it is a choice because where I'm at today, have almost no, causation for anger, for frustration, but I still fall short, I should say, in doing that sometimes. I was raised around, everything felt like a personal attack. There was two settings. There was, we're doing okay, it's happy, it's joyful. And then it's like, something as small as, what are you doing, could feel like a personal attack.
And it's like, no, I just want to know. That's one of the most beautiful things that my wife has taught me is no, no, no, no, no, I'm not Accusing you or I'm not doing anything like that. I just genuinely want to know how you're doing or feeling Whereas it used to be more like what are you doing?
Why are you doing that wrong thing? That's more what I was raised around
[00:23:30] Michaela: kind of wanted to just, if it feels comfortable to speak on a little bit of, the complexities of intergenerational trauma that everybody could probably cite, but it's so much more complex when that trauma is also coming from, because you belong to a certain group of people that have been so traumatically oppressed, and abused by institutions and uh, country and culture.
And, there's so many layers of this. It's everywhere. But I think of just how much harder that is to then try and differentiate and have such massive forgiveness as well, like you said, growing up on the reserve with abusive parents, but Those parents are coping with extreme trauma of their own and how that can inform, even the best of us, such extreme conditions then can cause us to harm people we love out of just feeling out of control just being completely disempowered.
And we talk a lot about on this podcast with all sorts of different people, when there's such a difference when someone belongs to a certain race or community or religious group that has that historical context that is still very much in the present versus those of us. Who don't have that context and parameters, the way that I grew up, I have a lineage of Arabic immigrants but I seemingly just grew up as a white girl in America that I have my trauma of the way that my parents grew up, or maybe, but there's such a privilege of I don't belong to something that has been in mass, greatly harmed that can then question your existence.
So just thinking about the interconnectedness of your awareness to your belonging to a greater group and how your, who you are and your actions reflect your legacy, your community. It's a lot bigger than what a lot of us have to
[00:25:33] William: cope with.
thank you for acknowledging that. Thank you for saying that for everybody who listens, that's what we're trying to say. that's what every indigenous person who roadblock is feeling. That's what everybody... Who feels like their voice isn't heard.
A lot of times when we do, we have this lateral violence in the community too, which is tough because ultimately, When the oppressed begin to oppress each other is when the full system of colonization has won. And, there's always the, just get over it part, but like, this stems back so far.
Hundreds and hundreds of years of this journey for a lot of First Nations people who then now in the present day need to labor even more because we have to explain ourselves or those of us who are struggling and weaker or finding their place, trying to belong anywhere. It's different for me.
I was raised also in a home that wasn't afflicted by alcoholism. In the present sense and I got to a place now where, people greet me with great kindness everywhere I go and put me on a pedestal most of the time, applaud for me weekly. And I think of like my relations that don't experience that ever in their lives.
What would your position on life be should you have only endured. Hardship, we see our relations on the streets homeless, houseless, asking for empathy, asking for help, a couple dollars here and there. And it's like, look at this example of a whole people.
And then we're back at this place where it's like, my friends were trying to share this understanding that it was a hurt that was placed on us and it's still. Very burdensome today because the system is still designed in a way to keep First Nations people in place and to disregard history not consult and really not put any value on culture and language that's been lost and yeah, I didn't know we'd head this way but I'm very thankful that you're willing to this, with me because, this is the background narrative and the, current narrative too, of my entire being, it's why my show has to be more sometimes than, are we having a good time?
Are you ready to hear this Ted talk? You know, that comes with the responsibility of power. I said, if I ever got to a place where I, I have a bit of a voice, I'm not good at social media and all those things, but when I have something to say, I make sure that those that are with me hear it.
And owe a lot of that to my mother and my dad, there's lots of good to celebrate too. But it's important that we acknowledge that because it's such a big part of every indigenous person you encounter is affected by those residential schools. Today, just today as we sit here with each other, I believe it's another, 96, another 96 graves were just identified at another residential school.
And it's in the past hour, this wasn't, How it was supposed to be. And that's why there's so much hurt. think of the 96 and how that ripple affects to so many people. And that's why, my people are dealing with that hurt. And need help. Need understanding. Need people like yourself to expedite the recovery and the reconciliation that has to happen, and it's not asking a lot. Clean drinking water. The original inhabitants of the land should be able to have clean drinking water. there shouldn't be an epidemic of our women ranging 15 to 60 going missing. And disappearing at the hands of violence. It's a really tough struggle to narrate.
it's why people want me to write and sing. mainly about those things in the community. mm made music into this place where I would just address parts of the world that I felt strongly about, and love, and family, and all those different things, you know. so this is what I'm always thinking about, my responsibility, my impact, all those things.
But also just, How do I set a boundary for myself and my family so that I too can have fun and celebrate the good things here? 'cause there's lots of great things to celebrate. I'm so fortunate today. I'm so privileged today. I come home and I'm able to be there for hockey camp and just, you know what?
Let's stay home. Be with your artist dad today, and you don't have to go, to daycare in the summer, because his mom works the nine to five and, we can, do art today. Let's go throw the ball around. Let's ride our bikes. And do you understand that this is a great privilege that I get to be here with you?
That's the message pass on and that I try to make relevant in our lives and I see his gratitude all the time and it makes me feel really good. Makes me feel like we're doing the right thing, and happy about it. yeah.
[00:30:21] Aaron: Yeah, I want to tie this back to your, creativity and your writing and your songs a little bit. You mentioned that people in your community, ask whether it's directly or indirectly for you to write about the experience and history of your community. And I can imagine that's a heavy burden to hear, or at least, a heavy thing to stand next to.
And, in addition, earlier, you mentioned grieving for your father and, wearing that as a badge and that coming out in your songs, where does your writing stand amongst that is you're writing an outlet that helps you process these, histories, these experiences, or you have to do.
Some work outside of your music to be able to then approach and create.
[00:31:05] William: Music has always been the um, greatest way for me to express how I'm feeling. I think we all hold a piece of that, whether it's trying to write something or just strumming a guitar this day. Music has always been the great communicator for me. And that's why I talk about the decades.
all this other time, all these other records were dealing with that stuff and finally putting it in its place, where it's going to serve me, rather than me fall victim to the circumstance. So it's like, yeah, take this song of loss. And go sing it everywhere for people that have felt loss, that's the work of the troubadour. That's what all the greats that I admire were doing. Talking about themselves there's a fellowship in that. That word gets tossed around a lot in The gospel church community, but just our human fellowship is what bonds us.
And, I think when people see that I can Make it through these things. I hope it provides some perspective or strength or hope that they too can rise above their situation. I am, I am the ongoing history of all these things. This is all happening in real time. And as I am more successful, I feel less self conscious about it.
That it's me trying to be better than anyone. That's never been the case. I'm just trying to be my best self. Mhm.
Because every time I take a step forward, everybody with me, everybody connected to me, my whole scope of relations and family and friends, we all take one little step together. want to break the mold of those things what it is to be an indigenous person, we're still effects of Hollywood the, Trivialization, the novelty of being an American Indian, as they say there, or a First Nations person, which is the preferred nomenclature here in Canada, the first inhabitants.
And, my writing then challenges that, because I might find a more limited audience it's hard enough to have people listen to issues about First Nations people and, if Buffy St. Marie hasn't healed us and done it yet, I don't know if I'm going to be the one, writing about that culture which truthfully was taken from me.
I didn't grow up in culture. I learned culture in my adulthood. I attended my first, ceremony with an elder in a reserve close to here. And he passed just before I was to receive my indigenous name. So maybe that's something I investigate with my son later on in life to, again, get close to it.
But now I've incorporated beautiful things in my life that were told to me to be... Not acceptable. We, I sage, like to pray. I like to manifest good things and put good things into the world and just talk to the creator, of all of this. First Nations people, Anishinaabe they believe in many truths.
So we make room for each other and we share with gratitude when we can. We are a storytelling people, so I'm just continuing that tradition of sorts. And it's in my blood memory, my grandfathers were preachers, so was my dad. And I'm just carrying forth another version of a message of truth and love.
This time it's more rooted in what I know rather than what I'm told. That's because I've seen the effects of anger, frustration, love, humor, all those things, and I'm trying to stand in the joy of it. I'm trying to be on the good side of things. And it's not as romantic as the sadness sometimes, to write about joy and not toe the line of being too corny or something that nobody really wants to listen to.
We all need battle music, it seems. And so I, just took a moment, if even for one record, to pause and reflect on the good things that make me happy. So that there is a documentation of it, that I wasn't always struggling and trying to heal from something. I was actually living and enjoying things too.
[00:34:52] Michaela: I want to say I, feel like one of the greatest tools of, Oppression, in my opinion, is psychological gaslighting. we see that in, black Americans and indigenous people of let's give you the worst possible conditions. And then when you can't survive or you start to self destruct, we're going to tell you that it's because of something that is inherent to your type of people.
[00:35:20] William: Yes,
[00:35:20] Michaela: And another aspect of that is then, okay, we're also going to convince you it's your fault. And then when you want to talk about it. Nobody wants to hear that. It's not interesting, you're complaining, it's not sellable, it's not exciting. I guess this is more of a statement leading to a question of, I personally think stories Like the ones that you share of specifics of the issues of your heritage of your family, the harm that has happened, but also your very personal stories of your joy and your love that you find.
It's all wrapped together, and I think they're incredibly important, so I just want to say thank you for that. Two, then my question would be, When then you have professional ambition and business come in to be a part of it, how do you grapple with that? is that something that you have to think about?
that practice of staying present and grounded, balancing that with the commerce aspect of creating. A career.
[00:36:27] William: Sure. To address the first thing, there's this great book by Ta Nehisi Coates, Between the World and Me, where he says you cannot shoot a man and blame him for bleeding. And that's the whole kind of summation of what you just said, about we're living in places that... that don't have access to clean water, that don't have employment, and were called lazy, that don't have resources for dealing for the inflicted trauma, brought through contact, It's like taking someone's home and making fun of them for being houseless after.
It's really frustrating. I wish people that don't agree or see us as a burden or see these stories as just nagging and complaining from the past could imagine what it would be like for them. And sometimes even when they do, they just say well, it's not, and let's move on. But as you say, as being um, I guess, uh, person on the outside, let's call it what it is. An indigenous person trying to exist in the realm of Americana and Western songs. I'm not a cowboy, but I've lived off the land. My blood memory, my people were raised around as Western situations as it comes. The original tenants of this land and how to tame it and how to live off it and respect it.
That's perspective. I'm also coming from Canada, which is, some kind of joke in itself some days, where it's like there's an asterisk beside the music that comes from here, and that's not the case at all, I don't feel. I want to be that way. I want to be a great storyteller, not a great indigenous storyteller, First Nations storyteller.
I want to connect with the human fabric and the sinew of our lives and the cosmos that connects us and makes you and I the same in a lot of ways. Other than appearance and history, we feel in the present day time a lot of the same things. And I've seen my stories and music and interpretations of these feelings affect and bring to tears the oldest white man who had never stepped foot on reserve, but had lost a father, had lost a son, had lost a wife.
So I know that at our core There's a, willingness to love and feel, but what's taught to us and tailored for us Can change that. And it feels like people that fall under that category are the hardest to reach. I've surprised them too. I think of the great Charlie Pride who would have had to do it during the days of, Incredible racial tension where you, didn't even know the person on the radio was a black person singing and you were surprised when you went to the live show and discomfort.
You didn't know how to feel. And I think of all the things that he had to endure to reach his dream and his place. Same thing with Buffy St. Marie being blacklisted by the FBI, doubling down on the efforts to keep her from succeeding. And today, she's an icon and an inspiration for so many. Sang with Johnny Cash, you know, Academy Award winner.
All these things that are, felt or feel like at some point were unattainable, but I've now set foot on the Opry stage. I've toured with some greats that I love, and I wasn't held back in those moments when my talent got to speak for me, when my intention got to speak for me. I think in passing, when you're scrolling, I may not be of interest to a lot of people, but I have a lot of songs that could be of interest to them.
And it's, truthfully, as a First Nations person, I'm used to having to work 50 to 75% harder to prove myself anyway. If it takes my whole life to get to this proverbial space of success, so be it. But I'm gonna enjoy the ride. I'm gonna enjoy every day getting there because what's the point otherwise?
I gotta stop comparing myself to peers that may appear to be doing better than I am. More buzz, more whatever it is. Better looking, more accessible, cooler. All those words that tear you apart on the existential crisis days. One that I just had yesterday.
and friend,
[00:40:31] Michaela: what you do to get out of that or to move through it.
[00:40:33] William: Well That was the thing, I was speaking about it, And then, rather than compare to anything or anyone, just compare to yourself from seven years ago, five years ago, two years ago. When I was living in a little apartment with two friends from high school and there was no money to go around, we could barely pay the rent and keep ourselves fed.
There was always money for weed, cigarettes, and booze, though. And, That was the priority, and I think of those times when I was like pawning my guitar and nobody knew a single note from me. No one knew what my voice sounded like. But I believed then that it was going to happen, without a doubt. this is going to be for me.
This is the life I'm going to carve out. And here I am, ten years further into that journey. With. Four records that I really love under my belt. I get to work with the greatest producer of our time, Dave Cobb, on all this music. Call him a friend who's connected to all my favorite artists that I listen to today and am so inspired by.
I have a band that believes in what we're doing. I get to play shows over a hundred days out of the year. I'm always in a new place. I'm always greeted with kindness, and there's only more to come. I'm still being given songs by some miracle. I have to look a little harder some days, and that gives me perspective.
I don't fear it.
I embrace it, and accept the challenge, because I chose this. I have a lot on my plate for the future, which is an incredible blessing because I was always hoping something would come along and happen. And now it's happening. So why am I really upset is because I'm trying to fast track something, trying to get to some other place.
Most of our unhappiness I read is rooted in the idea that we belong somewhere else. That when my bank account's bigger, when my house is bigger, when I'm more famous on the applications of the internet, when my points in stock go up, that's when I will truly value myself. No one gets to have ownership over me.
Because I made this thing, and I stand on the shoulders of many great people who sacrificed a lot, family and friends, artists before me. What's the point in dwelling and being sad and stressing myself out because I have a beautiful son and a beautiful life, more tenfold than I even imagined.
I just thought I'd be selling CDs all the time, thought it'd be nice if a song got on the radio. I have lots of songs on the radio, and I've sold records, and people really feel affected by what I have to say. So now I'm trying to be more careful than ever, but at the same time more truthful than ever.
So compare myself to 10 years ago. killing it over here. So why not be happy about it? Let's be happy.
[00:43:24] Aaron: Yeah it's a really hard thing, to think back and be like, man, 20 year old me would be psyched with what I'm doing right now. Oh my God. Yeah. I'm 37 as well as 37 year old me is like, can find a thousand things a day to complain about and get caught up on and, that same thing. if this was happening, then I'd be okay. Or if this was, then I'd really make it and then I'd be successful, but I'm thinking back not even 20, 16 year old me with, drums is my first instrument and I had all these drummer magazines taped to my wall.
And it's like, I'm doing exactly what I wanted to be doing, Throughout the day.
[00:43:57] Michaela: No, I think with every step you take in life, everything that you, achieve, The gifts that you get, after a certain point, you become accustomed to it. So then it's constantly looking around and being like what's next? what else?
And I think we learn over and over with these conversations, it doesn't matter how much somebody has or how much someone has achieved. They still have those struggles and we still need the reminders all the time. We live in Nashville, and we have this recording studio that Aaron built with his father designed it and built it himself.
And our house is 10 feet right there. And the other day, a friend was over doing some songwriting with me and he always is out here in the studio working with Ryan, with Ryan, with Aaron. And it was the first time he was in our house. And he saw. We have a piano in the house that was mine from my childhood and he looked at it and goes, Oh, wow, you have a second piano because he's always seen the piano that's out in the studio.
And he goes, two pianos. What a beautiful life I was like, you're right. Whoa, and that was like the reminder I needed wow You're right. We have two pianos and we started talking about it and what a reminder that was for me And he was like, yeah making jokes, but he was like, I only have one piano Maybe if I had four pianos, I wouldn't think your two pianos were that It was still this like really beautiful, just we need those reminders.
you might have to like remind yourself every week, look at where I am. And I think the challenge is how to trick our minds when we go to Oh, I don't have the more that I want. And let that just be. our ambition and our drive and our curiosity for like more exploration rather than I'm not getting it.
And I say all this stuff because I struggle with this so much. and because my husband is my co host, so I might say some stuff that are really helpful reminders and then after I feel really exposed because he's like. I know what you're talking about in the privacy of our home though, , so these things are hard for me, which is why we love these conversations.
[00:46:04] William: that's a great way of looking at it. Two pianos. I too am uh, blessed with the piano these days. did all the things I said, that
[00:46:12] Michaela: some
[00:46:12] William: guitars. yeah. some of the most beautiful instruments you can play. And I used to not have any of that and. It's not like I had to give something up to have these things either, which is remarkable because before, anything good usually came at the sacrifice of something else.
Raised that way, lived that way, and now trying to change it. But I love that I'm thankful for your friend being there, providing you that, and all this conversation today has been really uplifting. I think I'm always in sonder. That's why this is the great podcast for it. You know, what are you doing with all that other time? I'm sitting in sonder, imagining all the complexities of all of us. And, sometimes that can be a lot for the writing. Let's write something that connects and will resonate with the most people. And some days when I get overwhelmed and it feels like nothing's good enough. I stop and remind myself that, at the heart of this, I write and sing songs because it makes me feel better.
And the greatest reactions to any of my music has been the most truthful way of me dealing with any of my feelings and emotions and letting the art be genuine rather than tailoring it for some kind of reaction. And I'm thankful that. That's all I have to remember right now. And it's still, working.
It's still providing me this great.
life. And I don't have to be anybody else but myself. The person that I used to doubt and be the hardest on. And still am. Still a lot of the time. So it's nice to have those reminders of just how good we have it. So that we can use our strength to be kinder to those that don't.
To those that may take us out of that moment for a second, we shouldn't allow it. We should just double down on our strength and be generous and be kind. Have open time, take time for people that aren't being listened to. use what we gain from those interactions to make more truthful, genuine, real, moving pieces of art.
I think that's my responsibility. I've used the example of collecting B-roll. that's what I'm doing with all my time off the stage. I'm watching people, I'm watching families and my own, and people in the audience or people wherever I'm gathering information to hopefully develop into nice film and audio later and.
I really thought I was going to come on this podcast and talk about my golf game a lot more, but I really love golfing too. So that's how good it's going. That's how good it's going over
[00:48:36] Aaron: time.
[00:48:37] William: Yeah. Part two, all the things wrong with my swing and how I'm going to make it better. So I'm glad we got to talk about this instead.
[00:48:43] Aaron: Man. Yeah, I've really enjoyed this conversation. So thank you for sharing. So much with us and so much of that you have observed and gleaned and processed and synthesized in, not only in your music, but in your being and in your perception of the world. It's been incredibly powerful for me to listen to.
So thank you for sharing.
[00:49:03] William: thank you. both.
[00:49:04] Michaela: video, this is gonna be bad because I feel like my face has been like holding back tears the entire hour.
[00:49:09] William: No, it's great. him out. Let him out.
[00:49:13] Michaela: Thank you so much for sharing just everything.
[00:49:16] William: appreciate you both. Nice to meet